February 26, 2008
Death by Gulab Jamun, eh?Issues
Oh, this story is so sad (thanks, Filmfat).
Police have charged a Brampton woman who sent hundreds of rambling emails to Premier Dalton McGuinty with threatening a member of his staff – but she contends it’s all a cultural misunderstanding.
Neelam Vir is also prohibited from contacting McGuinty, his family, staff or any other politician, and barred from Queen’s Park.
“I never meant to harm anyone,” says a tearful Vir, 40. “My Canadian dream is shattered. I just want to go back to India.”
The level of misunderstanding in this story is so epic, it could be a script for a comedy of errors. Unfortunately, a confused woman was jailed twice for her inability to negotiate different cultural norms; that’s not really funny-haha.
The charge follows an incident on Sept. 30, when Vir sent a packet of mix for making gulab jamun, an Indian sweet, to McGuinty to express her “love and affection,” dropping it off to staff member Monica Masciantonio.
The same night, she emailed McGuinty, asking whether Masciantonio had given him the mix.
“I said, `If she didn’t give it to you, I’ll kill her.’ It’s just slang,” Vir said. “I use this term all the time with my husband and my kids. In Hindi, it’s, `Mein tumarhi jaan nikal dungi.’”
Well, you can surmise what occurs next…
Vir received no reply but, on Nov. 20, after the election, half a dozen police officers showed up at her door. They confiscated her laptop, cellphone, camera and papers, and hauled her to jail on a charge of conveying a death threat. There she spent a frantic six hours until her husband bailed her out. “I was so upset I couldn’t stop crying. I kept asking, `What wrong did I do?’”
But wait, it gets worse. In a move which inspires forehead-slapping, poor Vir frantically emails the Premier to make amends and proclaim her good intentions…which results in a second arrest, for violating the terms of her release. For her clueless efforts, Vir was gifted with a psych consult. But let’s start from the very beginning, a very good place, to start…
Vir’s tale starts with the typical immigrant story of struggle and a quest for belonging.
After immigrating in 2002, she and husband Baljinder could not find jobs in their fields though both have PhDs attained in India – hers in botany and his in entomology. So Baljinder opened a butcher shop, and Vir temporarily returned to India to teach. She also completed a degree in education there, but after returning to Canada in 2005 could only find supply-teaching jobs and work as an airport security guard.
As a freelance writer for a Punjabi newspaper in Mississauga, she often met politicians at community events. A prolific emailer, she sent messages – mainly decrying the plight of foreign-trained professionals – to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Immigration Minister Diane Finley, the provincial labour, education and health ministers and provincial opposition leader John Tory, many of whom she had met on assignment.
She didn’t just “send” emails…she SENT emails:
She sent the first of about 200 rambling emails to McGuinty last July. “In India, you can’t even approach a politician. Here, they’re accessible and open to hearing from constituents, so that’s what I was doing,” Vir says.
Prepare to cringe and feel awful:
Thrilled to get a form-letter reply from McGuinty that used her first name, Vir mailed him a rakhi (symbolic thread) last August, referring to him as “Big B,” her big brother.
At a Sept. 17 Liberal news conference at a Toronto bookstore, Vir handed McGuinty’s teacher wife, Terri, her resumé in the misguided hope she might help her find a job.
Vir took her daughters, Aanchal, 14, and Muskan, 9, to meet McGuinty during a roundtable with Punjabi media in Woodbridge on Sept. 28 where she heard him say he likes gulab jamun. The premier posed for photos with the trio, who presented him with bouquets and handmade cards.
Aanchal is failing in school as a result of all this unintentional, unnecessary craziness. Vir needs pro-bono representation. Canada needs to get a grip:
Shalini Konanur, the clinic’s executive director, calls the incident an overreaction to an honest mistake.
“One of the trickiest things when you move into a new society is understanding what’s colloquially appropriate communication. It’s almost impossible for new immigrants to navigate. I think she realizes now it was a mistake, but really, how would she have known? There’s no settlement agency that teaches you how to be politically correct in Canada.”
It’s a question of cultural semantics, adds the Toronto-born Konanur. “In some parts of India it’s quite common to speak that way. … I can’t speak for all Indian people, but in my family in India they use that kind of language all the time, `Get the milk or I’m going to kill you.’”
She believes the incident could have been kept out of court if officials had consulted agencies that deal with immigrant settlement.
“Obviously on one hand they want to take the safety of the premier and his staff into account, but there really needs to be a vetting of legitimate threats and ones that are made as honest mistakes.”
Nothing seems to be working out:
Vir is supposed to report back to India for a teaching job in June, but she isn’t allowed to leave the country.
“I’m going through hell for a silly mistake. If I’m guilty of anything, it’s being naive,” she said.
“I supported the Liberals in the election. Now I feel they betrayed me.”
I hope this women gets the help she needs, and that people who read rambling emails for the premier— and probably forward them all over the office for kicks— acquire some common sense. Heavy-handed much?
anna on February 26, 2008 05:15 PM in Issues · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
she immigrated in 2002 and then in 2005. how long does it take for a PhD to understand the cultural/political/social mores of another country?
Dalton must have been elated when he heard he had a stalker, but he must have known, deep-down, that someone as bland as he could never elicit such emotion.
In my family, we always threaten to kill each other. It's no big deal.
1 · Bol said
Large parts of brampton are majority sikh. There's a good chance she wasn't exposed to the mainstream cultural/political/social mores of Canada in the years she lived here. I feel bad leaving this enormous target for pearljamfan, but that is the reality. There are plenty of ethnic enclaves in Toronto where someone could go for very long lengths of time w/o speaking English if they really wanted to. This isn't just browns, also various east asians, the italians in the past, greeks etc. It's a city of mini-cities..
4 · retorts said
Oh, goodness...I thought this was obvious. Should have stated such in the post. Thanks for contributing that. :)
:-)
Her behaviour is embarrassing. She seems well qualified but apparently not well educated.
Given her insistent nature, I assume her preferred mix is Gits?
We at the Jalebi Liberation Front (JLF) condemn the terrorist attack by the Gulab Jamun in the strongest possible terms. It is a despicable act of terrorism, for which no excuse or justification is possible. We express our condolences to those who were injured.
The burden of responsibility for preventing terrorist attacks such as this one rests within the Gulab Jamun community. We have noted reactions by several Gulab terrorist groups, including the Gulab Revolutionary Armed Brigade of Britain, Australia, Liechtenstein, and Somalia (GRABBALS), that defend or even applaud the barbaric act of terror committed. The American chapter of GRABBALS, Gulab Association Yankee (GAY), should remember that defense or sponsorship of terrorist acts by their officials will have the gravest effects on relations with the JLF.
I would have freaked out too if I had rcvd 200 emails.
7 · bulbul said
Like I said, I cringed...but I'm feeling more compassion than embarrassment. It's easy for me as a 2nd gen to respond, "what was she THINKING?", but I grew up here. Besides, I wonder if there is some element of mental illness involved in this situation, and that makes me sad for her.
I remember Uncles who behaved this way when I worked for my local Congressman back in the day...we just rolled our eyes, filed their missive, form lettered a response and mailed them back...but we didn't over-react. And this was when our office was getting death threats, b/c of NAFTA.
When the mounties got the complaint, was there not a single desi cop on the squad to clarify?
Rakhee? Gulab Jamun mix? Anna, I am with you, there's probably a psychological issue with her social filters. Wait, Big B? 200 emails to just this one guy? Stalking she was.
12 · SkepMod said
Your comment reminds me of the "wedding detective" thread, wherein someone mentioned that in India, stalking is considered a bona-fide strategy for wooing. Sigh.
I can see some of her behavior being excused by not growing up here and by the fact she probably lives in an ethnically similar region where she doesn't get introduced as quickly to western norms. However, for someone who has been living here for as long as she has, her behavior seesm suspect.
But then again, some of the comments the aunties and uncles make at parties make me cringe and they have been living her for over 30 years and in an ethnically diverse region.
So I guess you can the desi out of the desh but not the desh out of the desi!
14 · BadIndianGirl said
I know Aunties and Uncles who live in ethnically similar regions, who don't ever get introduced to western mores, forget quickly. :) They've got satellite television, smuggled movies, cheap ways to call India and when they rarely leave the home, they socialize with other people who have and do the same. They hardly have occasion to speak English!
Maybe her peers had never written a politician or worse, told her that it doesn't matter, "you can send as many letters as you want, it doesn't do anything..."...I don't know. Her behavior seems so suspect, I wonder if she can really be held accountable for it. There's something very child-like and naive about her approach...we don't know her medical history or what may have happened to her after she got her PhD. I'd love to know what the result of the psych consult was...
200 emails, rakhi , Big B, gulab jamun mix....this sure looks a bit out of the ordinary to me. Also, the fact she is able to communicate well enough in english and is educated would mean that she can negotiate basic cultural norms. Granted in desh we do tend to use the expression "I will kill you" in regular conversation, I dont think anyone would use it someone they didn't know very well or in a formal situation.
I read the whole news story (though not anything else on the situation)--and I think it's important to note that:
(1) she doesn't appear to have been convicted of anything yet, so perhaps the Canadian judicial system will sort this out correctly in the end, and
(2) in terms of what a "correct" outcome is, it would be critical to know what exactly is in the rest of the 200 e-mails before we put a definitive interpretation on any particular e-mail that has been mentioned in the press to date.
Very interesting story--thanks for posting, and please keep us updated if there are any developments!
15 · A N N A said
I agree that we don't know the full medical history and that could explain some of her behavior. Also, you reminded me of my little cousin who moved here at 16 after living in Bombay her whole life. It was hard for her to pick up on all the cultural nuances and terms becuase they are so different. It was cute how she would ask me or my sister what something meant when she got home from school because she was too embarrassed to ask her friends.
Hopefully she will get the help she needs, psychological and legal.
As they say back home in the pind
Translation: Love is a wonderful thing.
OK. I'll find the plot soon. Apologies for the diversion.
Mcguinty as spoken publicly on this saying that he thinks this is a sad case [to echo anna]. also tacitly acknowledged that he first heard about this from the newspaper. i do agree that this could have been handled more sensitively. unfortunately, the situation is such that they'll try to follow the process to the best extent possible but it will be difficult to sweep stuff under the rug. mcguinty btw comes across as a generally fine person and has the right stuff to run for PM some day. it isnt that mcguinty is unaware of the ontario-desis. he led a trade delegation to india in march 2007 and has gone around courting the indian community at various relgious-cultural ceremonies.
This story seems to be a comedy of errors comparable to that original classic farce.
I empathize with her daughters, though I never had to deal with parental embarassment that had the potential to be this emotionally crippling. How will she suppress this?
Poor woman... she just wanted to get his attention.
Large parts of brampton are majority sikh. There's a good chance she wasn't exposed to the mainstream cultural/political/social mores of Canada in the years she lived here. I feel bad leaving this enormous target for pearljamfan, but that is the reality
Large parts of brampton are majority punjabi[Sikhism is there religon]. How can you not make any effort to learn culture of you new country that come. I blame white liberals as much as anyone. I could say more, but I will save it for another rant about this topic at a another time.
Oh, her poor daughters. I can't even imagine what crap they are facing in school! Well, I can. She does seem to have a screw loose!
I've also heard, "I'll kill you", used lightly here in USA as well. But yeah, writing it in a letter to a politician is weird.
I can understand the cultural disconnect though. Went through the same thing in India.
It takes time to "get" the psyche or ethos of any given culture.
Wow, this woman is stupid and lazy. Who sends a mix packet? GJs are hard to make -- you have to fry them on a low flame, the syrup has to be made etc. She should be lucky they did not think the white powder was something more dangerous! If this was in the US they would have probably deported her for "biohazard tactics" or some such nonsense charge.
I know Aunties and Uncles who live in ethnically similar regions, who don't ever get introduced to western mores, forget quickly. :) They've got satellite television, smuggled movies, cheap ways to call India and when they rarely leave the home, they socialize with other people who have and do the same. They hardly have occasion to speak English!
Well that makes my parents very different since they grew up in area that had only 25 desi familes[mostly punjabi] in area of 75,000 people. My Parents when they moved there 35 years ago made an effort to make friends with the local population[ they have many of the same friends since the mid 70's], and learn the customs. I was glad my sister grow up that way, cause she probably had more freedom as a teenager then 99% of punjabi girls growing up in the west. My Sister was a straight A student[NYU Grad] who now works in Time Square in New York in the business world. Also my parents still don't have a dish, and watch mostly western programs on TV. My mom has been watching Guilding Light and As the world turns since I was a kid.
Yet many people in the Vancouver punjabi community take shots at the way we were raised. Some of these people have sons or grandsons who were in gangs, a few have even lost there lifes, yet they still think they did a better job of raising there kids. There is where some my anger at the punjabi community comes from, dealing with all this crap.
27 · Suki Dillon said
I hear you, Suki. I think people who came here 30-40 years ago have similar experiences. They were forced to venture out and integrate, there wasn't a choice like there is now.
Anna and Suki--too true--my parents, for example, don't really interact at all with the more insular sort of desis--in other words, probably more than 50% of their friends are desis, but they're all desis who have to some significant degree integrated into the broader culture--the non-integrated desis, my parents only encounter at temple (and then they complain to me about them!).
So, they waited until she sent out *hundreds* of e mails and until *after* the election to levy the charges?
Suki, as a fellow Canadian I empathize with your sentiments on this subject. I have a pretty mixed (leaning negative) view how Canada's official multicultural policy has played out. The sentiment's good, and desirable, but in practice it (or rather, it, in conjunction with a variety of other peculiarities of how a good portion of immigration plays out in Canada) has lead to a lot of counterproductive self-segregation. My parents have lots of Indian friends, and lots of non-Indian ones. When we first moved to Canada we spent a few years growing up in rural NF where, well, I was pretty much the only non-newfie around; that more or less eliminates any impulse to self-segregate ;)
Reaction from the Premier
31 · jackal said
Who's to say the same thing wouldn't have happened without official multiculturalism? Anna says she's seen the same thing in the States, where there is no official policy promoting multiculturalism. This has nothing to do with govt policy, it's a problem with some first generation immigrants not being quite as cosmopolitan as your parents. The severity of these hiccups ranges, but I think they're inevitable in places like Canada/the UK/UK where migration is so significant.
No, no--things are worse in Canada. You don't have the problems Suki talks about (and documents!) at anything like that level here in the US. Not that the level is zed. ;-)
look, it's kanada!?!?! didn't someone tell her that when it comes to speech you have to be careful about what you say and who you talk to? they have komissars up there remember.
Great point, Razib--see, e.g., the Mark Steyn travesty.
also, No Obscenity, Please. We're Canadian. there are some ways that kanada is actually more like the american south than the north....
Bah, more FUD from American corporate media. Those videos are prohibited for importation to protect our fledging bondage industry. We just call it obscene to avoid charges of protectionism from WTO and NAFTA.
kanadian porn is weak....
kanadian porn starz. itz cold up there, hey?
Hence the protectionism. Plus, most people here just do it for the various taxcredits and grants.
Canada is pretty f'cked up when it comes to diversity and cultural understanding.
Sure, it has a simpler self-immigration process, but then it doesn't have the jobs to meet the immigrant demand.
So, all these PhDs run shops, drive taxis and the only positive aspect is probably that they are in a first world country, as opposed to third world India/asia.
How nice. Thankyou, come again.
Couple of years ago, There was this incident of Canadian Customs going bananas over a Sikh guy who had barely-clothed pics of his young kids in his wallet. Now thats culturally ok in India/asia, and does NOT mean pedophilia (just like two men holding hands in India does NOT make them gay).
The west needs to grow up.
I think Gandhi said it best when he said that the civilization of the west was a good idea.
retorts -- I kinda agree; my original statement said policy has some role, in addition to the nature and circumstances of immigration into Canada. But that there is stated policy *does* affect mindset -- both in terms of what's taught in school, and how things are discussed in the public domain. There are similarities with the US, of course, but in Canada's case the existence of offical policy has played *some* role in how things have played out. Also, note, that Canada takes in a higher number of immigrants as a percentage of population (ie: immigration rate) than any other country.
rax - yes, they didn't do that great a job initially on ensuring immigrants could get jobs appropriate to their qualifications. this is being fixed, or so I hear. however, it's pretty absurd nowadays for an immigrant not to get some well-paying job; as long as they go to Alberta. The economy there is insane and electricians, truck drivers, etc. can make well over $100k. That being said, Canadians still have among the most positive attitudes towards immigration anywhere (even as they take in the most per capita) -- that's something unique, and at least one place where official multiculturalism policy being put forth in the classroom has possibly helped.
I think Gandhi said it best when he said that the civilization of the west was a good idea.
totally, people in india are sssooo accepting of heterodox behavior. it isn't like there are norms and expectations which people in india are supposed to follow!
The immigrants (1st gen) from ANY race, sex, religion, nation will go through GREAT struggle in wherever they go in the West- that has ALWAYS been a given! Desis need to stop complaining and work on themselves b/c the "society" CANNOT always be to blame. There is always someone around to help you out w/ learning things in a new country- just look and ask. Share things w/ others- they may have some immigrant stories in their recent past, too.
Also, DO NOT go somewhere w/o a guarantee of a good job (or one that you can handle, if not prestigious)!!! I learned this the hard way, and I only moved states!
Since it was mentioned that she worked various jobs, I wonder if she understood or had enough exposure to the local customs, expressions etc. It looks like one of her former jobs was an airport security guard. Was that job also in Canada and what did it involve? Are the Canadian airport secuity people trained to look for threats in any form? At least in the US airports, any sort of reference, joke, hint, limerick, (or whatever) about killling/bombs/terrorists is a red flag.
> totally, people in india are sssooo accepting of heterodox behavior. it isn't like there are norms and expectations which people in india are supposed to follow!
Its not about who is accepting or not accepting heterodox behaviour.
Its about what you do when heterodox behaviour occurs, as it does, in multi cultural places.
Its about learning to grow up and to realize that you live in a culturally diverse world.
Stop freaking out. Stop treating people as criminals first. If they do something out of the ordinary, give them the benefit of doubt.
And frankly, stop demanding "If they're coming to our country, they should learn to speak in English!". Get over yourselves!
Sending a person (who claimed to love gulab-jamun,) a packet of anthrax-like white-powder called "gulab-jamun mix" doesn't freak them out in India (or most of the world).
It is considered thoughtful.
It was my belief till a few hours ago that in the west, if someone told me they liked chocolate brownies, and I baked them some, it would be considered thoughtful too.
Well, not if I'm going to go to jail for it! Oh no! I'm not making brownies for nobody!
(Side thought : Brownies = yumm; Brownie = racial slur?! wtf)
Incidents like these cause more racial segregation.
And to the person who commented "Share things w/ others" : No Thankyou Ma'am. Thats how this woman got into trouble.
Lets all stay in our groups and cliques and keep interaction to the minimum.
About the killing bit:
My german/euro biz manager says "die! die! die!" if I tell him that IT wont be delivering something he needed last week.
The first time he IMed those words, it was a bit weird, but it is quite apparent that it was in jest (i hope).
Just last week I told my friend "I'm gonna kill you when we get home", because he called me a slut at a bar.
Thankfully my friends are not in high places, and sane enough to realize a statement like "I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you" doesn't literally mean what it says.
The west needs to import some sense of humor from asia/europe.
The east needs to import some sense of superiority(or atleast equality) and self-entitlement thats abundant in the west.
If I say I like brownies (is that code for a desi fetish?), I expect brownies, not some crappy old aunt Jemima mix (that's not racist, I hope). I'd be pissed too if you gave me some $2 mix past its expiry date, and tried to palm it off as a favor.
No, it's a competence slur.
What, you consider gulab jamun powder anthrax-like? I assume that's your opinion, because I didn't see anybody else saying it, not least the premier and the law. And, sending them over 200 emails and threatening repercussions if said powder doesn't reach guinty as charged, that's a little too thoughtful for most people.
Considering the "stalky" nature of wooing in India, maybe she just has a crush on Dalton.
As the old song goes...
I chew my nails and I twiddle my thumbs
I'm real nervous, but it sure is fun
C'mon baby, you're driving me crazy
Goodness, gracious, great balls of khoya!!
45 · razib said
We are actually. Thank you for noticing. It comes partly from good, politically incorrect humour.
48 · rax said
Great example. Shows that this multicultural thing is overblown; it was easy to understand what the poor woman meant. Those responsible for her arrest are twittering idiots who should be made to pay expenses for the operation from their pension funds
47 · gm said
I am not sure where she worked as security guard. But there are several grades of "security guards" at Pearson Airport. It is more likely she worked there, given that she is from Brampton. I don't think security guards hired by private companies recieve extensive training in those matters. They are very peripheral to the airport security.
It is sad that she has to go through this. It is slightly better that she recieved a psych.consultant now. Being in Brampton seems to be the worst of both worlds for her. There are still native country notions of 'prestigious' job and conforming to community pressure (she writes in Punjabi newspaper) and yet, there is a need to navigate through local customs and political correctness with no cultural feedback/education. Brampton may be nearer to Queen's Park in physical distance but very far away in social mores.
I hope something comes out of this with regards to immigrant training in cultural issues.
There are many deluded people (even though highly educated in India) with different notions on how to survive in Toronto. I agree with Emma above on the job issue.
>If I say I like brownies (is that code for a desi fetish?), I expect brownies, not some crappy old aunt Jemima mix (that's not racist, I hope). I'd be pissed too if you gave me some $2 mix past its expiry date, and tried to palm it off as a favor.
On the flip side, something packaged is considered a lot "safer" than hand cooked.
We are talking "gulab-jamun mix" which is like agarbatti for whitey : exotic and not easily accessible.
She hoped his white wife knew how to knead, fry and soak.
> What, you consider gulab jamun powder anthrax-like?
Wow! You noticed! I mentioned it because I wanted that connection to be recognized.
Remember those post 9/11 days when anything white and powdery made alarm bells go off?
Even the damn coffee creamer tin in my office was switched to safe/sealed sachets.
Again, who gives a shit about what the manufacturer put in, as long as it wasnt another psycho human trying to poison you while you drank your coffee sweetened with aspartame.
>And, sending them over 200 emails
Have you mailed your congressman ever?
200 emails is what you need to send, unless you can afford a lobbyist.
What would be funny though is if like 200 desis got together and mailed Mr Premier a packet each of Gulab Jamun mix.
"From India, with love".
No, no--things are worse in Canada. You don't have the problems Suki talks about (and documents!) at anything like that level here in the US. Not that the level is zed. ;-)
It true. I have big family in Calfornia with 5 aunt and uncles and 12 cousins all between 28-45 and they all live between Fresno and the Bay Area. This is the area with probably the biggest punjabi community in the United States. But they all have made some effort to blend into american society and they do have friends of other backgrounds and don't just live in there punjabi only world.
Everytime I been to big family party there, there usually have been people of other backgrounds there.
She has a husband who is a PhD and working as a butcher, she herself apparently is a PhD, I am sure had they stayed on in India they'd be doing far better than what they are doing in Canada working as Butcher and Security Guard, what is this fascination of supposedly educated Indians to migrate to foreign countries where you dont seem to qualify even for a Basic clerical job??????? Guess she had it comming CHAMCHAGIRI doesn't work all over the world..........
Suki, as a fellow Canadian I empathize with your sentiments on this subject. I have a pretty mixed (leaning negative) view how Canada's official multicultural policy has played out. The sentiment's good, and desirable, but in practice it (or rather, it, in conjunction with a variety of other peculiarities of how a good portion of immigration plays out in Canada) has lead to a lot of counterproductive self-segregation. My parents have lots of Indian friends, and lots of non-Indian ones. When we first moved to Canada we spent a few years growing up in rural NF where, well, I was pretty much the only non-newfie around; that more or less eliminates any impulse to self-segregate ;)
Yeah there is no one here who has a more negative view of multicultrism then me or had been affected by it more then me.
I blame my arrange marriage to multicultrism. It played a big part in why I was forced to get married just before my 20th birthday.
Like I've said before, I grow up in area that was 99% white and my parents raised me very western. So when as a 19 year old in 1996 when I want to India I was very clueless about almost everything punjabi. I could not even speak the language that well and that made alot of people very mad. My parents everywhere they want were told what a bad job they did raising me. The people who did that most, were my relatives from the Vancouver area who come to Canada but made no effort to intergrate into Canadian society. These people were my parents uncles and aunts and cousins.
My parents did not want me to get married when they 1st get to India. But after a everywhere they want and they were bashed to death for forgetting there punjabi roots and alot of pressure from my grandparents gave in to them. The amazing part is that the my parents aunt and uncles who were the worse to me, have grandkids[my 2nd cousins] who are dead or in jail due to the gang life style. Yet they had a bigger problem with the way I was raised.
While I have never fully forgive my parents and never will, it was moving to the Vancouver area where I took of some of the blame off them. When I saw what the punjabi community was like, I could have grown up with alot worse parents.
The only thing I had in control of what happened to me,was that I was a male. I could only image what a bigger nightmare my life would be if I was punjabi female going through this.
55 · Suki Dillon said
I hope you are factoring in 0.71% Asian Indian population in San Francisco (a bit old data-2000) with ~10% South Asian population in Toronto (Not adding GTA-2007).
1 in 5 persons in Toronto is a recent immigrant (arrived in 90s). About 49% of total population is foreign-born. So, is the cultural feedback going to be easily available in everyday transactions with almost every other person being from somewhere else?
I agree with the posters who stated that Canadian multi-culturalism policy has had a much more direct effect than the non-intervention you see the in States.
I heard a theory though that the Canadian gov't isn't so much interested in the v. qualified, hard-working adult immigrants that come here as much as they're interested in their children.
hope you are factoring in 0.71% Asian Indian population in San Francisco (a bit old data-2000) with ~10% South Asian population in Toronto (Not adding GTA-2007).
1 in 5 persons in Toronto is a recent immigrant (arrived in 90s). About 49% of total population is foreign-born. So, is the cultural feedback going to be easily available in everyday transactions with almost every other person being from somewhere else?
Yes I'm aware of this as I live in Vancouver where 9% of the population is south asian. Here in Vancouver over 80% of the south asian population is punjabi, where as in Toronto while the punjabi population is huge, it not as big % of the south asian population in Vancouver.
The thing about Canada is that it becoming 2 countries now. There is the big cities of Toronto,Montreal,Vancouver and Ottawa which are very multicultural. But the rest of Canada is over 90% white and the #1 minority group is people of native background.
I have start to notice that more the last few years anytime I leave Vancouver and go back to my home town to visit.
48 · rax said
He was just saying "the the the!" in German. \ducks (sorry, couldn't resist)
60 · Suki Dillon said
oai. be kind to toronto yaar. we REALLY are that special - and every day is like falling... nay, soaring... in love all over again. Dude!! where else would you have a minister talking about wearing a senior's diaper as a statement that it is good for extended use. [i'm still processing whether to smile or groan... but it's still different and interesting - so it's good]. of course the same minister was united with his partner in an ojibway ceremony uniting the unique two-spirited people. equirepresentation my man is the thing. when we're all different there is no pressure to conform. DAMN! I love this City.
Neelam needs counselling - though I would stop short of suggesting psychiatric help or a restraining order. I agree with her tho' that ministers in canada are much more approachable than most anywhere - but what she was doing transgressed the bounds of good behavior anywhere - i do wish she wasnt couching this as cultural differences. I do wish they would not have let it come to this that we have to get the government to do the right thing. just expensive, time consuming and not the best use of public money. a little common sense would have helped but there may be background that is yet unknow.
I take issue with comments which make this out to be a desi problem, I don’t think there is anything uniquely desi about her behavior. She may have psychological problems and that is what we should talk about. I don’t think stalking is uniquely desi and it is ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
The GJ (Gulab Jamun) lady knew exactly what she was doing.
She knows all the snazzy terms like "cultural misunderstanding"; "betrayed me"; "being naive" and then dismisses her email as a colloquial expression? Really?
Please spare us all those "immigrant settlement understanding" and inability to understand a new country's mores etc.
A sensible person does not innundate a Premier with emails and gifts and definitely does not follow up with their staff unless they are angling for something. In this case it looks like GJ wanted a job through any means possible and aimed at getting Premierial influence to get one!
Haha, I agree completely. Also, Liberal Party members, especially from metropolitan areas, have been around plenty of brown people that they would know the difference between cultural differences and stalking.
Vee Indians know vell how to play this race "patti" of yours, no?
The lady is a kook! Sending him raakhi, calling him Big B, sending the GJ mix as a token of her "love and affection." Forget about the national security threat. That's stalking!
Cultural misunderstanding? Let her try sending Mr. Manmohan Singh 200 "rambling" e-mails, raakhi and gulab jamun mix followed by threats to kill somebody. She will be eating roti and paani in some women's prison in India in no time.
Miss Vir is an embarrassment to our community and a slap in the faces of those desi women who really struggle to establish a foothold in a new country, who work all day, come home and cook dinner for the family and still spend time helping their "Aanchals and Muskans" with homework.
Okay, a different take. Imagine Miss Vir has a Muslim last name and she is living in the US. She sends Bush 200 rambling e-mails, raakhi and gulab jamun mix with threats to kill somebody. What do you think Homeland Security would do?
Floridian,
Exactly, she has some problems and I believe her being brown is only incidental, I don't think she has these issues because she is brown as some have here suggested that this kind of behaviour is ok in India.
Oh well, I'm from desh, and I had no idea we could tell a politician 'I'll kill you' in desh. She has been here for quite a while (3 years) and holds a PHD. I suppose that's good enough a duration for someone to learn some of the cultural differences?
And sending someone 200 emails in itself is enough to freak someone out - be it anyone. I won't justify her behavior as a cultural difference.
Wow, this is embarrassing. I actually cant let this woman's stupidity count as cultural miscommunication. She has a PhD! I mean if she was really that naive - she would not have used 'I'll kill you' in an email to someone she barely knows. I am a DBD, lived in Vancouver for 8 years - trust me - I know how that phrase is used but this is someone she probably met once. On top of that, she sent 200 emails - that is stalker and maybe a bit obessive to say the least.
Maybe she does have a genuine mental health problem. I would blame her - having a PhD and working at an airport wouldnt do much for the brain cells. But the person reading these 200 emails and the person being told they would be killed to have a right to be a bit alarmed. I am guessing they probably got the 200 emails, ignored her as a crazy woman but when the same person sends an email saying I'll kill you - it might have been enough to get the alarm bells ringing.
I know I harsh but I would much rather have someone else get away with cultural misunderstanding - someone who genuinely didnt know better than this person. She seemed to cross every line. I mean when she was specifically asked not to be in contact anymore with the premier after getting a bail - she emails him. That is pretty straight forward instruction and she still emailed him. I do think this woman needs help but crying cultural misunderstanding is not the way to go.
With St. Patrick's Day approaching, I got inspired to write this extremely pathetic (but cathartic) limerick which breaks every single meter, grammar, syllable and rhyme rule (for limericks). Also, this is not to offend, mock or hurt any Canadians, Punjabis, Irish, English teachers, Police officers, poets, or anyone who uses Gits mixes. Since I am a teetotaler and a strict vegetarian, I am unable to enjoy the "pleasures" of corned beef and green beer. Therefore, I feel left out on St. Patrick's Day and the only way to get the spirit of this delightful holiday is to write some inane limerick.
There once was this Canuck lass from Punjab
who had a mix of jamun flavored with gulab
The box was lovingly sent to McGuinty
along with innocent emails aplenty
literally translated from Hindi
(so she really isn't guilty)
yet it sent coppers into a frenzy
The Gits pack serves only four
Pray the lass won't serve twenty (to life or more)
I really think Mrs. Vir should get some psychological counseling and career counseling. Handing a resume to a Premier's wife at a news conference probably isn't the best way to network when job hunting. (This is from the link that was provided http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/306896 )
She is clearly not a threat to society in my opinion and should not be locked up. It looks like a huge heap of taxpayer money was wasted on investigating and temporarily imprisoning this innocent, harmless lady. It probably should not have gone this far (with her getting jailed twice, etc.) I do agree any email or any sort of communication with the words "kill" that is directed to anyone must be investigated , but people need to see the whole picture and use plain common sense.
42 · SSK said
i always knew sunny leone was shrewd. perhaps, she'll play teacher for an intern?
56 · Bedoon Esam said
it's difficult to get a research job in india, because universities are underfunded. they concentrate only on education, and don't really recruit for research jobs. while there is considerable nepotism in india, let's not fool ourself about how egalitarian the job market in the US is (I cannot speak to Canada here); even wall st which prides itself on meritocratic recruitment, hires at schools where the bankers etc have alumni connections. i have seen quite a few people wrangling internships and jobs based on who they know. as far as grad school goes, recommendations and calls from a professor who has friends at others can work wonders. if i were you, i would not underestimate the power of chamchagiri in the american workplace and grad school admissions process.
I don't really have any sympathy for this woman. C'mon, I do know some families who use the expression "I'll kill you" and they all know better than to use it against a politician! And 200 e-mails?? C'mon! This isn't about brown identity or race, this woman clearly has some psychological problems and needs help.
Sigh...I'm sorry, but this woman sounds like a bit of a nutcase. I was born in the US, but I find it hard to believe that in India, it is not considered abnormal behavior to send a *politician* is Rakhi, dry goods mix, calling him "Big B", making a slew of handmade cards...not to mention the 200+ emails. That behavior sounds stalkerish in my book. If she were a kid, it would be cute to send those things (sans emails) but for a grown woman? Mmmmm...I don't know.
I do sympathize with the mixup about her use of "I'll kill her" but the rest of it? Something is not right with this woman's behavior, and as others have said, it ain't a Desi thing. Poor kids!
Sorry, but unless both of these two sorry, unhappy and somehow misunderstanding, whilst being "misunderstood" people, bought their PHDs in the Punjab, I have no way to even fathom what she/he/they were thinking. Has very little to do with "cultural differences". Maybe they ought to pack up and return to the Punjab. Don't the Canadian Authorities do any testing for prospective immigrants?
Hope the are able to solve this crisis of theirs.
Is his son's fiance TMBWITC, and did she get married to a maple tree before the church ceremony?
She is a certified home grown cashewnut.
This is one example of "Political Correctness" run amok. All Political Correctness is evil, and a by-product of "liberalisim" which in it self is a form of mental illness.
Just happened to share this post with Aunty-ji. She said that all those mixes were not worth a s**t anyway. Sorry, SM Intern, for the language.
I'm not sure if we have all the facts in this case, but what I find interesting here is how people are transferring and projecting their own cyberspace fears and real-life 'integration and assimilation' issues onto the Neelam Vir story. The 'stalking' charge seems a bit over the top to me. It seems to me all she did was to use correctly a common idiomatic expression in the wrong context (an electronic communication with an elected official) which then was interpreted idiotically. I don't know how much we can believe the '200 emails' figure - but an email a day over six months will get you there. She may well have believed that personal intervention from him could help her get a job or that 'persistence pays'. Sometimes it does.
With law enforcement reacting the way it did, of course she claimed it was a 'cultural misunderstanding', because she might have been advised that if the court believed that, she might be let off - so it is more a case of a disingenuous defence, testing the credulity of the system, and playing off its actual racism than anything else. It should not be confused with what actually might have happened - that she simply typed the wrong thing, and then inadvertently violated the conditions of her probation, which landed her in hot soup.
This is not to say that public figures don't get stalked, or to minimize the seriousness of stalking in general.
Whether 'Gits' is any good or not is beside the point. Lots of housewives in India use it to make Gulab Jamun. My mother did, and we ate the result, and it was all right.
81 · chachaji said
Knorr's?
82 · Rahul said
Gits makes its own soup mix.
72 · gm said
Hah, nice one! Some suggestions, jamun is actually a fruit, and is used in the name of the dessert as a visual description. How about "Jamun-e-gulab"?
Also, the Liberals (party of Dalton McGuinty) are colloquially knows as The Grits. You could couple that with Gits. The 5th and 6th lines are the weakest parts and should be reworked.
Also, does anyone else here watch Flight of the Conchords? Neelam Vir reminds me of the character Mel.
Though Neelam's action was out of proportion, but this type behaviour is not uncommon among newcomer Desi's. Back in home, people often try to be closer to (but it is not easy) powerful (and often corrupt) politicians and use those relations for unlawful personal gains and status. When people immigrate to west, mindset remains same. And when they found it is so easy here to be close and talk to these powerful politicians, became wild with false hope of using the relations for personal gains and status as in back home. In most of the cases, this over enthusiasm subside with time with broken dreams. But in case of Neelam it backfires very badly. Sorry for her, hope it will be a eye opener for others.
Thanks to SSK (84) for the suggestions and critique. Yikes, now one can see why I never majored in English or any other difficult Liberal Arts major! I actually believe the whole stinking poem was weak and rather pathetic.
In addition to your excellent suggestions, I could have added something about the tenaciousness and persistence of Mrs. Vir (a reference to the 200 emails sent over a few months) . Then again, she sounds like she is not in the best mental state and I certainly don't want to add to her or anyone's grief. Looking back, I probably should not have dabbled in limerick composition in the first place.
integrating new canadians into the workplace into roles consistent with their education is definitely a challenge. there is an element of racism - it is not overt - but a matter of perception. people make judgements based on perception and then play with facts to justify their decisions. so, when india/africa are generally regarded as cesspools of disease and poverty, it is hard to believe for a 9-to-5'er to believe that someone from those regions could be a skilled marketing professional or a manager or similar white collared professional. the barriers placed to getting a medical professional from these countries certified to practice in canada also reflect the same perceptions.
That said, there's a basic disconnect here in your personal beliefs and life in Canada.
A butcher is a skilled tradesperson. Though I am not sure how well trained the husband was in this area, it is definitely not a 'basic job'. it takes a fair bit of skill to slaughter an animal, to drain the blood and clean its entrails so as to not pollute the meat with faecal spillage. it is not an easy life, as with any tradeperson, but in canada you can enjoy a good life as a butcher.
to take this further, if a person wnts to build a life as a tradesperson, he/she can enjoy a very good quality of life. it is not a comedown to become a butcher or a plumber or a cook or a carpenter. IMO, a PhD is awarded to a person for having demonstrated the critical thinking to solve a specific problem in one's field of study. it trains a person to examine an issue in multiple ways to come up with the optimal solution. while it can help, it need not be linked to a profession. I am suggesting that if baljinder and neelam didnt get a job directly aligned with their field of interest - it is not a come down for them to work as a tradespersons. in fact, that would be superior to working as a 'basic clerk' or a paperpusher. I feel 'desk jobs' are spiritually regressive. a guy needs to (physically) sweat a little in his daily life anyway. it keeps the steel in the spine. if he can do it by swinging a hammer or a cleaver, good for him.
87 · khoofia said
Good point, Khoofia.
But how many people actually work in careers that have anything to do with what they studied or based on their university/college or a
PhD/ Masters thesis? (the exceptions to that I have noticed include physicians, nurses, accountants, etc) I don't have any statistics on hand, but most of my relatives and friends w/PhD's go into completely fields that are completely different (from their studies) after graduating. Of course getting a PhD is very difficult and prestigious in my opinion. One PhD friend of ours beg to differ and called it a "poor hungry dog" degree. If that is the case, is an MD a "money dog"?
she does sound a bit off. that said, the stressors of migration, assimilation, and downward mobility could have had a hand in that. sad, but hopefully she gets the help she needs.
79 · Rajesh Harricharan said
Exactly. Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, dude, at least it's an ethos.
Damn those corrupt sodomite and exhibitionist liberal freaks.
What, he sells cut up ants & grasshoppers ?
It's certain that this person is unstable. Phrase like "I'll kill you" is not common in educated Indian Community. The history is bad too, tried to use unfair means to get job in school she volunteers and complaint to the authorities about people she works with. Does not want to do any work as “I am more educated”, no wonder why not able to get the job. This can be her political gimmick too to come in lime light.
Why would a well-educated and politically active women not understand that her statement was taken literally?
She blames it on her naiveté, but this is not naiveté; it is simple stupidity. Let's not place the blame on cultural insensitivity, but focus on the fact that this educated woman lacked common sense. And trying to play smart to get politically active.