If she indeed did it, it is disgusting and she should fess up. But so far, all we have is Drudge's eagerly making his statement, with no evidence to back it up (despite the fact that he ostensibly has an email which he could publicize), Obama and his guys immediately being shocked, SHOCKED that Clinton would stoop to pettiness with somebody as noble as them, and the Clinton campaign officially denying it. Guess which one Drudge didn't report?

If you look at the picture of the post before this one, by Anna. There is a picture of man in turban in the background behind the premier of Ontario.

In Canada you can find pictures of many polictians wearing turbans at sikh events.

I thought the campaign declined to deny that they were involved.

The later statement you quoted reads like a non-denial:

Asked if the campaign had any role, Wolfson said, "No, not to my knowledge...I've never seen that picture before. I'm not aware that anyone else here has. I'm not aware that anyone here has circulated this e-mail."

OMG - he’s wearing a turban! He’s a mooo-salim! Oooooga Booooga! Oooooga Booooga!

I think you've accurately summed up the thought process of the majority of white americans. But the clintons know this, they know of the power of images. If Obama blasts past this, HRC might as well say, C5, you've sunk my battleship.

From earlier today:

1) The Clinton campaign is accused of circulating a photo of Barack Obama wearing Somali garb on a visit to Africa, and declines to deny that someone on the campaign may have been responsible.
2) The Clinton campaign says that, regardless, there's nothing wrong with Obama's wearing that clothing, and that it's absurd to call it "divisive."
3) On "Morning Joe," Hillary supporter Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones says that the Clinton campaign would not "condone" the circulation of such a photo, and that "I would not personally have done it." But she adds,
4) "I have no shame, or no problem, with people looking at Barack Obama in his native clothing, in the clothing of his country." [itals mine] For any dim enough to have missed her implication, seconds later she brings up peoples' right to wear "the clothing of their nation" yet one more time. [Link]

Agree with Rahul here.
Clinton campaign has denied it and if Obama's team thinks that there is nothing wrong with the pic ( at least I don't see anything wrong) then why are they so SHOCKED ?

But the Clinton campaign hasn't denied it. They've hedged the issue.

And you honestly don't see the intent of the shot?

On the one hand, it seems like a very underhanded tactic. Neither candidate has really openly addressed the issue of race/gender, allowing their followers free to interpret vague slogans of 'change' and 'making history'.
Maybe the Clinton camp hoped this photo would ignite the inherent xenophobia of American voters (much like early jokes about his name).
On the other hand, Obama himself has downplayed the significance of race and nationality, his outrage over this photo seems a bit overblown.
He's just a man in a turban, people. Relax.

Ennis, I'm with you 100% on this one.

Following up on Ennis's comment in #5, video of Tubbs-Jones's comment here. Pretty hard to give the Clinton campaign the benefit of doubt after this (and after the repeated incidents leading up to South Carolina).

Like AR said - He is just a man in a turban. That's exactly how I look at it. I do not see anything wrong with that pic.
I do think that Obama's campaign is overreacting and making the issue even worse. If they treat this as "just another pic with the locals" and not react like "how could they release this photo? " then people won't look at it in the wrong way.

Sometimes the way you react can worsen the issue at hand. Don't you thin?

I meant - think and not thin :)

If running a campaign is a predictor of presidential performance, I am glad HRC is losing. What a mess!

In response, Wonkette posted a list of images of the Clintons dressed in scary "race clothing" (Wonkette's term, not mine).

The captions are hilarious.

10 · Chetna Like AR said - He is just a man in a turban. That's exactly how I look at it. I do not see anything wrong with that pic. I do think that Obama's campaign is overreacting and making the issue even worse.

I see what you mean, and it's correct in an objective sense, but I think it's a bit naive of an analysis if applied across the entire US population, where, ummmm--not everyone is objective--I'm more with HMF (!) here in comment #4--I think HRC knows exactly what she's doing (unfortunately).

But the Clinton campaign hasn't denied it. They've hedged the issue.

Exactly, in a way it's a no-win situation for Obama, because if he sits idly by and doesn't respond at all, it simply allows the subtext of a dark skinned man wearing a turban being threatening to persist, but if he calls Clinton out for it, the clinton campaign simply shrugs their shoulders and says, "What? why would this be a problem? You don't trust Americans to differentiate between you in a turban and a bad brown person in a turban? You want to lead this country but think it's full of racists?"

Yes, the Clinton campaign did not categorically deny this. They just said that it was not directed by the campaign and that they have too many people on the campaign to control each and every such thing. Plus, they have even insinuated that Obama is playing the victim card by making a big issue of this to get votes.

Plus Clinton's 'Shame on you Obama, outburst day before also seemed to reek of desperation.

On the one hand, it seems like a very underhanded tactic. Neither candidate has really openly addressed the issue of race/gender

The Clintons did try to use race before in SC but it backfired there. I think Obama is doing the right thing from a strategic POV by not getting into racial aspects, there is too much of a danger of going the Jesse Jackson way there.

First try to paint Obama as the "black candidate" (before South Carolina primaries)
now as the "foreign candidate" weird name, weird ethnic clothes, allusions about his name,
religion.(week before Texas and Ohio primaries)
I see a pattern here.

How low will Hillary's campaign stoop before she concedes?

While we're at it, let's not forget the Mccain-black child whisper/rumor as well...

I thought the campaign declined to deny that they were involved.

He is saying that the campaign was completely uninvolved:
"If you have any original reporting to suggest that this campaign was circulating this e-mail, please let me know."
"We've been very clear that we're not aware of it," he added. "Obviously the campaign didn't sanction it, and don't know anything about it."

At this point, Drudge should out whomever sent it to him, if it is indeed a Hillary guy. The image was clearly sent out with malicious intent by whomever did it, but so far, Drudge is the only one saying it is HRC's guys. That said, I will make two points:

1. HRC should have clearly said that indicating that Obama is some sort of evil agent because of this costume is disgusting, and that they don't condone it.
2. The day Drudge is unquestioningly believed over Clinton by the average Democrat, she has a serious credibility problem. And she has, even by a kind accounting, at least partially brought it upon herself.

Clinton in a turban. I was looking around, downloaded that image, and then couldn't figure out where I'd found it. Sorry.

If running a campaign is a predictor of presidential performance, I am glad HRC is losing. What a mess!

In that case, I guess that dismisses 'almost gone bankrupt at one point' John McCain too.

Rahul, let's leave aside for now the question of where the picture came from. Let's assume for the sake of argument it did not come from anyone associated with the Clinton campaign. Now watch Rep. Tubbs-Jones's comment, which I linked to above and which Ennis quoted above. Even if you assume the Clinton campaign had nothing to do with the picture getting out there, do you really think what she said is an appropriate way to discuss the picture?

Plus Clinton's 'Shame on you Obama, outburst day before also seemed to reek of desperation.

There was nothing wrong with that specific "outburst", she was taking him on about his misrepresentation of her positions in flyers, but of course, Obama is an honorable man.

I think you've accurately summed up the thought process of the majority of white americans.

So most white americans all think alike?

Now watch Rep. Tubbs-Jones's comment, which I linked to above and which Ennis quoted above. Even if you assume the Clinton campaign had nothing to do with the picture getting out there, do you really think what she said is an appropriate way to discuss the picture?

No, it absolutely is not. But why is that HRC's fault? Sounds similar to this article on Drudge :)

Drudge is not a right-wing opinionmaker like malkin or limbaugh. he's also not unhinged and doesn't have some extreme right wing agenda. he prints many favorable things abouts dems, including HRC with whom he has a close relationship as new york mag reported. in fact, a ucla study concluded that drudge actually leans left.

what he really does is print rumors that the msm withholds, suing his many contacts in the media. he does dirty news like bill clintons black baby but always reports if the rumor turns out to be false.

24 · Suki Dillon So most white americans all think alike?

Suki,
I usually favor you over HMF, but all HMF did here was surmise that "a majority" of white Americans are a trifle indisposed towards people with turbans. That seems kind of true to me, and I'm not coming from some sort of left-wing agenda--it just seems, well, true.

Obama is an honorable man.

If Obama's "Hope" and "Change" message is strong then no need to get SHOCKED by a simple photo. Right? Why be so afraid?

If Obama's "Hope" and "Change" message is strong then no need to get SHOCKED by a simple photo. Right? Why be so afraid?

Yesterday I was on a plane flight and the white guy in the seat adjacent was reading a flight manual for a commercial pilot's license.

How's this - you and I get on a plane together, and I'll hand you a flight manual for a commercial jet somewhere along the line and let's see which of us gets to liveblog gitmo.

17 · Yogi said

First try to paint Obama as the "black candidate" (before South Carolina primaries)
now as the "foreign candidate" weird name, weird ethnic clothes, allusions about his name,
religion.(week before Texas and Ohio primaries)
I see a pattern here.

yogi: the msm didn't report this but this line of argument started in iowa. 3 clinton staffers spread the madrasa rumor, clintons co-chair in NH called obama a drug dealer, and bob kerrey followed thru with by calling obama a stealth islamic candidate while referring to him as barrack hussein obama.

Rahul sez:

No, it absolutely is not. But why is that HRC's fault?

Are you asking that for real? Because she is one of HRC's campaign's national co-chairs, and prominent national surrogate.

Oh, for pete's sake! So, if Hilary gets elected. she won't cover (not hijab, just a scarf) when she goes to Pakistan or Afghanistan? Does this mean tartans are out? No cheom songs? God help us if she should take flamenco lessons. or gasp! Cuban salsa lessons. My god, have we no self-imposed cultural boundaries? Excuse me, the chai b'nana is boiling over, the pasta is not ascuita enough, and who knows when the kima will be done. Well, doesn't matter that much, as an Amercun, I should be slurping beer and watching Oprah, not eating my roots.

interestingly, obama continues to surge in the face of these assaults. from iowa, to SC, to Ohio, he's handled this brilliantly...threading the thin line between countering immediately (in great contrast to john kerry) but not hysterically a la jesse jackson.

its an open secret that bubba was trying to turn obaama into a tawana brawley case in SC, calling him a kid, not boy just kid, knowing it would go over the head of most whites but hoping obama would react hysterically. he reacted calmly but forcefully, winning praise from the likes of Michelle malkin and rush Limbaugh, which i found amusing as many liberal blogggers hid under the table.

Better ground game, better speeches, fundraising, he is beating the inevitable one at her own game.

He is an amazing politician, there's no doubt about that.

31 · Manju

bob kerrey followed thru with by calling obama a stealth islamic candidate

Obama's clearly not a Muslim from a post-Enlightenment "freedom of religion" perspective, but from a traditional Islamic perspective, isn't he in fact a Muslim (or an apostate) b/c his father's a Muslim??

25 · Rahul said

No, it absolutely is not. But why is that HRC's fault?

well, in a way its not. bush the 1st knew nothing of willie horton and bush II had nothing to do with the swift boats. that the way things work. there's always plausible denial and at the end of the day the only thing the candidate can do is condemn it and try to create a culture where it'll happen less. clinton fails on both points. repeatedly.

36 · rob said

Obama's clearly not a Muslim from a post-Enlightenment "freedom of religion" perspective, but from a traditional Islamic perspective, isn't he in fact a Muslim (or an apostate) b/c his father's a Muslim??

well, rob, i guess here in america we go post-enlightenment. history is not destiny, unless you're stephanie tubbs jones.

38 · Manju

I'm down with the Enlightenment, just thought that that's an interesting point about what some people around the globe may be thinking.

Bush and the Arabs bhai bhai

More pictures of world leaders in "foreign" garb. Yes, a few turbans are featured.

The US Ambassador to Kenya quietly let it be known that he occasionally dons locally worn traditional clothing similar to what Obama is seen wearing when he visits tribal areas. The ambassador pointed out that the gesture has no religious significance but is only meant to show respect and solidarity with the hosts.

But count on at least some American voters squirming at the image of a swarthy man in a strange outfit. Perhaps not quite Dukakis in tank, but close. And many of them would be the same ones who swooned over G.W. Bush's "Mission Accomplished" flight suit.

The alternative title of this post is "Shame On You Hillary," Clinton's battle cry over the weekend. But then although the Obama supporters are supposed to have drunk the Kool Aid, it is the Clintonites who are going nuts!

But count on at least some American voters squirming at the image of a swarthy man in a strange outfit

pray tell me if i am misreading the discussion here.

Personally I don't think this is going to affect voters to "swing" his way. I think this will make an impact on ignorant people who have already made up their mind about him.

I think you've accurately summed up the thought process of the majority of white americans.

More precisely all white american democrats. We are in the primary season aren't we?

42 · khoofia but by expressing that very thought, you've just demonstrated that obama is 'swarthy' and wearing a 'strange outfit'. if one was herself colorblind this thought would never have arisen.

pray tell me if i am misreading the discussion here.

I think your interpretation is off--reading into the photo that it will hurt Obama politically says nothing about the views of the "reader"--instead, the reader is making a prediction about how voters as a group are likely to (in some measure) react--it's like Keynes' beauty-contest description of equity prices..

Y'know, you'd think a black man with a name that reminds Americans simultaneously of Saddam and Bin Laden would be a little susceptible to some xenophobia or racism. But so far, nada. In fact, scratch nada. Pictures come out meant to look like he's going to the sucide bombers ball, and what happens, he opens a freakin' double digit lead. WTF?

Personally I don't think this is going to affect voters to "swing" his way. I think this will make an impact on ignorant people who have already made up their mind about him.

I read this as directed at Latino voters. He's still largely an unknown to them, and they can be pretty xenophobic and Islamophobic.

" -- that the 'other' is likely to be not as magnanimous or as worldly wise as the self."

Do you live in the real world Khoofia? At least three of my middle class, well traveled Republican neighbors (lovely ladies, all) have asked me if Obama is "really" a Muslim. My husband has been asked the same question in his work place. They probably ask us because of our "swarthy" complexion and the "strange" outfit we (at least, I) put on occasionally.

But I do agree with you in a way. Had I been an Obama adviser, I would have advised him to come out and say, "So bloody what?"

47 · Ennis I read this as directed at Latino voters. He's still largely an unknown to them, and they can be pretty xenophobic and Islamophobic.

Well, you can't say that Spanish-culture affiliated people are entirely without grounds for holding a bit of concern about (certain strands of) Islam now, can you?? (Think El Cid then or Madrid bombings now!)

When Prince Philip returned to jolly old ingLAnd from a trip to Papua New Guinea, he showed up at breakfast the next day sporting a giant koteka, a gift from his hosts. The queen was not amused.

"I read this as directed at Latino voters. He's still largely an unknown to them, and they can be pretty xenophobic and Islamophobic. "

You left out turbanophobic and bedsheetophobic.

50 · khoofia said

When Prince Philip returned to jolly old ingLAnd from a trip to Papua New Guinea, he showed up at breakfast the next day sporting a giant koteka, a gift from his hosts.

rival nobles with claims to the throne should've circulated the photos. royal poltics needs to get up to date.

So Obama goes to Africa. Takes photos of himself in an african costume. And somehow Hillary is to blame. Twisted Yankee logic.

Obama's clearly not a Muslim from a post-Enlightenment "freedom of religion" perspective, but from a traditional Islamic perspective, isn't he in fact a Muslim (or an apostate) b/c his father's a Muslim??

Except that his father's a Catholic. And his grandfather appears to have been the first Muslim in the family, after trying out Christianity. (See Krugman's piece in the NYT from this weekend.) I would say his time in Indonesia is more significant with regards to his relationship to Islam than is his father's background.

53 · bulbul said

And somehow Hillary is to blame.

It's a vast left wing conspiracy!

48 · Ruchira said

Had I been an Obama adviser, I would have advised him to come out and say, "So bloody what?"

How about; "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

54 · AG Except that his father's a Catholic.

Yeah, I'm not sure that that's entirely a true statement (i.e., was father Catholic for his whole life?)--I've read otherwise (I will look around for authoritative links). Haha, keep in mind that I'm with the post-Enlightenment view that Obama is not a Muslim. I'm just curious about what people in say Saudi think about it.

57 · rob said

I'm just curious about what people in say Saudi think about it.

or edison

58 · Manju or edison

LOL!!! OK, fair enough!

Yeah, on this question of whether Obama's father is a Muslim, I find a lot of variety on the Internet, but nothing I would feel comfortable linking to (!). I'm probably missing a lot--is there any legitimate resolution of this (mildly interesting) question?

You can find Billary's photographs in pagdi and duppatta and publicize them but a white amongst the brown does not have the same effect as Obama in a turban amongst the brown/black.
What convinced me of her duplicity was the statement "with people looking at Barack Obama in his native clothing, in the clothing of his country".

to any obama supporters in philly, kal penn is hosting a philadelphia event on thursday.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gGg5QL

i'm sure kal penn won't mind if we rock our turbans ;) one of which he will be wearing proudly in harold & kumar 2!!

2 · Suki Dillon said

If you look at the picture of the post before this one, by Anna. There is a picture of man in turban in the background behind the premier of Ontario.

In Canada you can find pictures of many polictians wearing turbans at sikh events.

Dude, in Canada, you'll find politicians that wear turbans on a daily basis.

He's Mr. Clean. I don't think anything will stick to him because he's so different from HRC and the Republican front runner John McCain.

And I don't know if the Repubs will recycle this photo again during the general election, that is if McCain remembers the South Carolina ads Karl Rove put out, but even if they do, he'll get by because people are sick of the Republicans after 8 years of Bush.

46 · Manju said

Y'know, you'd think a black man with a name that reminds Americans simultaneously of Saddam and Bin Laden would be a little susceptible to some xenophobia or racism. But so far, nada. In fact, scratch nada. Pictures come out meant to look like he's going to the sucide bombers ball, and what happens, he opens a freakin' double digit lead. WTF?

You mean like this.

Here's how hillary should've handled some of the comments coming from her campaign.

but all HMF did here was surmise that "a majority" of white Americans are a trifle indisposed towards people with turbans. That seems kind of true to me, and I'm not coming from some sort of left-wing agenda--it just seems, well, true.

I'm glad you were able to overcome your internal biases, and actually read the words in the text message rather than the username. And of course, it's kind of true, namely because, it is true.

67 · HMF

And of course, it's kind of true, namely because, it is true.

Yes, right!

That said, even though Muslims are (unfairly) viewed somewhat poorly by most Americans, it doesn't mean that most (not all, but--seriously, most) Muslims don't view a Hindu like me as a kuffar dog (even though we make a lot more money than them in the US--woot, woot, f-ckin' woot to the n'th degree with a cherry on top! (esp. to the ones that think they're better than me b/c they're lighter-skinned--hahahahaha to the bank--thanks, dads!!)).

it would be interesting to see how american attitudes toward muslims break down due to race or ethnicity. its entirely possible, as ennis points out, that the picture was aimed at the latino vote in TX.

there's been some press about how skittish many asians and latinos are in voting for obama (due to his race) in comparison to whites. wouldn't it be ironic if at the very time whites are prepared to deliver a black president, asians and latinos say no.

barack just knocked the Farrakhan question out of the park in the debate, denouncing and rejecting the vile anti-Semite and racist as Clinton attempted to corner him...bringing the crowd to their feet. nice. much better than his lame che response. with performances like that, obmama republicans may deliver him.

70 · Manju wouldn't it be ironic if at the very time whites are prepared to deliver a black president, asians and latinos say no.

Not really ironic, no--white Americans who are not "left out" of the modern world (like poor rural whites, for example) are pretty "modern" (if, indeed, not definitive of modern, along withe Euro and Japanese urbanites) so--, nor surprising that they're less likely to vote on traditional grounds--my parents, for example, are way more into Indian stuff (even though they're also more integrated into US culture than some desis) than your average, say, Italian-American at their SES level is into traditional Italian culture (the Italian-American is more likely to be into trans-national 'modern' culture).

say, Italian-American at their SES level is into traditional Italian culture (the Italian-American is more likely to be into trans-national 'modern' culture).

absolutely, thats the very function of white privilege. Discarrd your culture, assume whiteness and get rewarded for it.

denouncing and rejecting the vile anti-Semite and racist as Clinton attempted

Well, I don't know what debate you were watching, but he denounced and rejected his clearly anti-semitic rhetoric, but did not denounce him as a human being, in fact he said Min. Farrakhan was free to say whatever he wants about him. (Does free speech only apply to Christians yelling merry christmas defending their slowly dwindling religious holiday?) And yes, he made Hillary look like a fool by pointing out the stupidity of her verbal nitpicking between "reject" and "denounce"

oh, i just saw clinton's hot semi-desi butlerette on msnbc

Ok, you gotta admit that Bill looks much better in turban than Obama. The difference might be due to quality of those pictures :)

I have no shame, or no problem, with people looking at Barack Obama in his native clothing, in the clothing of his country." [itals mine] For any dim enough to have missed her implication, seconds later she brings up peoples' right to wear "the clothing of their nation" yet one more time

Releasing the pic was probably not as offensive as the follow up statements.

Desperation makes you do crazy things!

I think my favorite comment in the last week was HRC referring to Obama's NAFTA comments (which are misleading) as "Rovean." Hi pot, it's kettle.

I read this as directed at Latino voters. He's still largely an unknown to them, and they can be pretty xenophobic and Islamophobic.

Manju, despite Obama's performance, I've definitely met a fair share of voters who say they won't vote for him because they think he's going to "infiltrate and take over from the inside" (I kid you not).

rob, I think Obama's grandfather converted to Islam, his father (raised Muslim) converted to Catholicism, and Obama III chose Christianity as well. I think the polygamy throws people off, but it's pretty common regardless of religious affiliation in Nyanza/Western.

I have no shame, or no problem, with people looking at Barack Obama in his native clothing, in the clothing of his country." [itals mine] For any dim enough to have missed her implication, seconds later she brings up peoples' right to wear "the clothing of their nation" yet one more time

Wow - this is pretty serious stuff. Not only is she evil but she has her geography wrong. Obama's father is from Kenya not Somalia. All

Last time I checked, Obama's country was the U.S., so it sounds like her geography is off by at least a hemisphere.

Yes, somebody needs to drive some sense into her. She had no business saying what she did.

Obama was pretty awesome in the debate. He more than held his own all through, and given that he holds the advantage, it seems like Hillary can forget about measuring the drapes for the Oval Office, it's curtains for her.

Last time I checked, Obama's country was the U.S., so it sounds like her geography is off by at least a hemisphere

Bloody oath. The equator bisects Kenya - so not sure if the Hemisphere commnet is valid. If Obama is not American, I shudder for other immigrant children including all of SM. Hence my fury at the slander.

revisting the first SM thread on obmana is very entertaining at this time.

7 · Ennis said

But the Clinton campaign hasn't denied it. They've hedged the issue.

With all due respect, I think you're trying to make something out of very little. Every presidential campaign. All it is, is an acknowledgement of the possibility that a staff member could have acted independently outside of the campaign. So, to deny something when you can't say you're sure isn't a wise move, because if it DOES turn out a staffer leaked the photo, your denial will come back to haunt you. Every serious presidential campaign has thousands of staffers. Considering that vetting each one is damn nigh impossible, of course there may be one who would do something misguided while acting on their own. The implication that somehow this photo incident was devised or approved of by Hillary is ridiculous.

It's been said several times, and it bears repeating: THIS IS DRUDGE! If you're going to take his word for something, you'd better make doubly sure you confirm something before accepting it. And a non-denial denial is not confirmation. If this were sneaky right-wingers attributing something to Clinton in order to make both candidates look bad, it would hardly be the first time in the history of politics that such a maneuver has happened.

There are two hemispheric divides -- north/south and east/west. I

Well, I don't know what debate you were watching, but he denounced and rejected his clearly anti-semitic rhetoric, but did not denounce him as a human being

Obama: "I have been very clear in my denunciations of him..."

With all due respect, I think you're trying to make something out of very little. Every presidential campaign. All it is, is an acknowledgement of the possibility that a staff member could have acted independently outside of the campaign. So, to deny something when you can't say you're sure isn't a wise move, because if it DOES turn out a staffer leaked the photo, your denial will come back to haunt you. Every serious presidential campaign has thousands of staffers. Considering that vetting each one is damn nigh impossible, of course there may be one who would do something misguided while acting on their own. The implication that somehow this photo incident was devised or approved of by Hillary is ridiculous.

It's been said several times, and it bears repeating: THIS IS DRUDGE! If you're going to take his word for something, you'd better make doubly sure you confirm something before accepting it. And a non-denial denial is not confirmation. If this were sneaky right-wingers attributing something to Clinton in order to make both candidates look bad, it would hardly be the first time in the history of politics that such a maneuver has happened.

Yep, so far, the only person who has said that he got it from Clinton folks is Drudge, something that the Obama campaign eagerly picked up on and reinforced. He's used this holier-than-thou stance very effectively all through, well played!

From the transcript:

Matt Drudge on his website said it came from a source inside the Clinton campaign. Can you say unequivocally here tonight it did not?

SEN. CLINTON: Well, so far as I know, it did not. And I certainly know nothing about it and have made clear that that's not the kind of behavior that I condone or expect from the people working in my campaign. But we have no evidence where it came from.

So I think that it's clear what I would do if it were someone in my campaign, as I have in the past: asking people to leave my campaign if they do things that I disagree with.

OBAMA!

He plays hoops too! And he became a bench warmer for mouthing off just like me!

Big up to all the skinny bench warmers with funny names!

Apparently Hillary is so polarizing that even David Duke prefers Obama to her: http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=907272c4-54db-4fba-9149-e95b7293d6a0

In Canada you can find pictures of many polictians wearing turbans at sikh events.

Dude, in Canada, you'll find politicians that wear turbans on a daily basis.

Yes, there a few sikh policticans in Canada with a turban. But I was talking about white politicans who go to sikh events where they put on a turban to get the sikh vote.

Apparently Hillary is so polarizing that even David Duke prefers Obama to her:

Maybe David Duke just likes people with the name Obama. it could be the name of some of his new friends on some of his visits to the Middle East and the Arab world where usually makes some speech where he blames the jews for everything.

Apparently Hillary is so polarizing that even David Duke prefers Obama to her: http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=907272c4-54db-4fba-9149-e95b7293d6a0

Well, I sure hope he and his ilk doesn't have a change of heart and continues to hate old man Mack all the way through November, so that a Democrat wins the presidency.

Any idea what the projections for the house and senate look like?

"Obama: "I have been very clear in my denunciations of him...""

Ladies and Gentlemen, Entering the ring, possessing an indeterminate amount of intellectual honesty and integrity, it's.. misrepresentational manju.

The very quote you pull, when extended to include context:

"I have been very clear in my denunciations of him and his past statements, and I think that indicates to the American people what my stance is on those comments"

As for an outright rejection of his support, again from the very same link:

MR. RUSSERT: Do you reject his support?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, Tim, you know, I can't say to somebody that he can't say that he thinks I'm a good guy.

when pushed:

MR. RUSSERT: The problem some voters may have is, as you know, Reverend Farrakhan called Judaism "gutter religion."

OBAMA: Tim, I think -- I am very familiar with his record [reg'ding those particular statements], as are the American people. That's why I have consistently denounced it.

Ennis writes: >>I read this as directed at Latino voters. ...they can be pretty xenophobic and Islamophobic.

I'm shocked. Simply shocked. How did this comment get past SM Intern (unless certain rules are not applicable to bloggers)? Passing negative judgement on an entire populace, stereotyping tens of millions of people with a brush of the keyboard?

I bet you have many Latino friends.

What if someone goes on some Latino blogs and posts a link to this comment? What will that do to SM's image?

M. Nam

I think this race might be over. We are going to have nother teflon president (though this one will be smarter and not senile)

wow so many things to comment on!

First of all, with regards to rob's comment about Muslims treating Hindus as "kuffar dogs" - that's like me accusing Hindus of hating Muslims because they won't drink from the same cup! (remember the short film The Little Terrorist? (or whatever the name was...) Faulty logic.

I'm not sure Muslims would count Obama as a Muslim since he clearly does not call himself one. I do wonder, however, about how the Islamic zealots/"terrorists" will treat him if he's the US prez. I can easily imagine them accusing him of being a traitor for leaving his religion, or some stupid ish like that - anything to drum up controversy and further their twisted agenda.

Anyway, all that picture does is tell Americans that this man is a Mawzlem and a daggone African. Considering the attention placed on his church pastor's Afro-centric comments, Americans that can't trace their roots (drinking beer on St. Patty's day doesn't count) will use this as one more reason to vote against him.

Americans that can't trace their roots

Is this your pc-redneck comment?

Nice touch with Bill wearing a turban... it's sad to see Hilary and Obama accusing each other I really wished that if either won the election, the other person would be VP that'd be cool, but now it's like a madhouse listening to their talk, the only objective seems to be to put the other person down... forget the issues or the republicans, it's democrats eating each other up... geesh

Rob,

Are you serious in 69? I am sure there are many commenters here Muslim and non muslim who will take great offence to your generalizations.

sad to see Hilary and Obama accusing each other I really wished that if either won the election, the other person would be VP that'd be cool,

I really see it going one way, Hillary accusing Obama of wrong doing and campaign improprieties. Take the example of the fliers, of course, Hillary engages in the exact same thing, mailers, fliers, phone calls, emails, etc... Obama even said that Hillary is free to say it's misrepresentative if that's what she believes, but the notion that Obama is doing something egregiously incorrect whereas Hillary is playing nice nice is ludicrous.

The problem is, every week she has a new selling point, first she's experienced, then it was "Billary", now she's "the fighter"

On a somewhat related note, I dont get it why she keeps pointing out the differences between their health care programs. Neither of them have genuine single-payer universal health care. Certainly not gov't sponsored, and neither of them is a huge deviation from what exists now.

"Obama: "I have been very clear in my denunciations of him...""

Ladies and Gentlemen, Entering the ring, possessing an indeterminate amount of intellectual honesty and integrity, it's.. misrepresentational manju.

I don't think you know what the word "and" means.

HMF:

I'm going to bow out of this argument with you b/c once again, presented with evidence that you're completely wrong, you persist with tedious and pedantic arguments that just seem either dishonest or weird. i provided you with the very quote where he denounced Farrakhan and his ant-semitic comments ("I have been very clear in my denunciations of him and his past statements") and you somehow construe that since the context of him denouncing Farrakhan was his anti-semitic comments, the very context that i myself referred to in #71, means he didn't denounce Farrakhan. WTF?

I could go on and parse you're clintonian argument that he didn't reject Farrakhan's support, but i suspect it's a big waste of time.

However, if anyone else thinks ther's any credence to HMF's argument, please speak up and I'll elaborate. short of that, you can have the last word HMF. I'm out.

I don't think you know what the word "and" means.

I dont think you know what the word context means.

that he didn't reject Farrakhan's support, but i suspect it's a big waste of time.

Because it's the actual truth. once again, for the reading impaired:

MR. RUSSERT: Do you reject his support?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, Tim, you know, I can't say to somebody that he can't say that he thinks I'm a good guy

Does this amount to an unequivocal "NO"? Of course it doesn't, again, it presupposes the ability to read.

means he didn't denounce Farrakhan. WTF?

WTF indeed. He denounced him insofar as he made those comments. It's clear Obama wasn't making an absolute, all-around rejection of him as a perennial racist and evil human being, as most so often do. Your comment in #71;

"denouncing and rejecting the vile anti-Semite and racist as Clinton attempted to corner him"

if you left it at "anti-Semite" I'd say your comment was contextualized in the same way Obama's was. However you added "racist", my guess in reference to his statements on white America. Your overextension of what Obama had said is what I pointed out.

I'm going to bow out of this argument with you b/c once again

Because of your inability to address the point. You haven't proved anything wrong, infact I've given you more snippets from the debate to show you how it wasn't the all-inclusive denunciation you made it out to be, now if you're retracting from that position, say so, rather than, "your arguments are weird and pedantic"

Obama has denounced Farrakhan and his statements.
But, Obama cannot prevent Farrakhan from supporting him.
That is what I understood.

Agreed, the dictionary does not define denounce as "absolute, all-around rejection of him as a perennial racist and evil human being". But, what if Russert had asked Obama if he thought Farrakhan was evil and racist. My guess is Obama would have said yes.

But, what if Russert had asked Obama if he thought Farrakhan was evil and racist. My guess is Obama would have said yes

That's your guess. And it's a wonderful guess that can make it to the hall of fame of guesses.

However, based on what was asked of them that day, at that time, by Tim Russert, you cannot conclude that Obama denounces Farrakhan (outside of the anti-Jewish statements that Russert had alluded to), nor can you say he unequivocally rejects any verbal praise, because he answered that as well.

Obama has denounced Farrakhan and his statements.

He denounced him in so far as he doesn't agree with and doesn't wish to be associated with those particular statements. For example, Farrakhan has also said,

"And I hope that five years and 10 years from now, I'll be a better man, a more mature man, a wiser man, a more humble man and a more spirited man to serve the good of my people and the good of humanity. "

Now, if Obama was denouncing him completely, he should as well disagree with this statement, and every other statement he makes, correct? but my guess is, he'd agree with or at the very least, not denounce this statement.

Agreed, the dictionary does not define denounce as "absolute, all-around rejection of him as a perennial racist and evil human being

Actually, it's pretty close:

" to pronounce especially publicly to be blameworthy or evil"

I'm pleased to see John McCain Repudiates ‘Hussein Obama’ remarks,by a conservative radio talk show host. Just maybe we have turned a corner -politicians realize that citizens want more. link

Obama answered /phrased the Farrakhan charge from Hillary just right, by spelling out the silly semantic word games this came down to;

"I have to say I don't see a difference between denouncing and rejecting," he said, all but rolling his eyes at the entire line of questioning. "There's no formal offer of help from Minister Farrakhan that would involve me rejecting it. But if the word 'reject' Senator Clinton feels is stronger than the word 'denounce,' then I'm happy to concede the point, and I would reject and denounce."

My sister is married to a man who attended the Million Man march. It doesn't follow that she, her husband, or anyone else who hasn't offered a total ban on all things Farrakhan is anti semitic. I've visited Trinity (Obama's Church in Chicago)- it's too theologically liberal for my taste. That's a very separate issue from it being "separatist/racist" as Richard Cohen in the WaPo attempts to make it out to be.

it's too theologically liberal for my taste.

How so? just curious.

I'm pleased to see John McCain Repudiates ‘Hussein Obama’ remarks,by a conservative radio talk show host.

And this dumb fool tried to defend his repeated usage of 'Hussein' by shrugging his shoulders and saying, "That's the name his mother and father gave him"

56 · Manju said

How about; "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

I've visited Trinity (Obama's Church in Chicago)-

The Wapo writer was drawing attention to Obama's church giving some sort of honor/ award to Mr. Farakhan, and by imputation, asking Obama to call Farakhan the "blank blank" that he Mr.Cohen beleives him to be.

#104 But, what if Russert had asked Obama if he thought Farrakhan was evil and racist. My guess is Obama would have said yes.

I think he would have said no, in so many words.

How so? just curious.

I dont throw the full expansion out willy nilly.

;-) back at 'cha

99 · umber desi Rob,

Are you serious in 69?

I was being deliberately over the top to compensate for my "PC-ness in #'s 68 & 27--sorry, though--it does look a bit crazed (!) without that context.

Rob,

Thanks, that is what I thought, knowing your commenting history it looked out of character.

Rob:"
"Well, you can't say that Spanish-culture affiliated people are entirely without grounds for holding a bit of concern about (certain strands of) Islam now, can you?? (Think El Cid then or Madrid bombings now!)"

Oh, please!
Like the rest of the Islamic world isn't concerned about the conservative strain?
As for "Spanish-culture affiliated"- the Catholics did way more harm to the New World than any Arab ever did. Just read Fr. Junipero Serra's theories on creating a labor force. Think of it this way: that kind of brown did not exist before 1492.
In addition, under the Andalusian kingdoms, at one point, "Spain" possessed one of the most enlightened social constructs available in Europe and most of the known world.

Anyway, for a boy to officially join the umma, he has to be circumcized (usually around 4-6 years of age) and make a conscious declaration of faith (between 8-12)- at least in North Africa.

The other thing I have a problem with in regards to the brouhaha over the photo is that local dress does not always exclisively signal religion. Sometime local dress is just local dress and custom occaisionally requires a turban or whatever. Oh well.

And then there's this.

113 · Zazou In addition, under the Andalusian kingdoms, at one point, "Spain" possessed one of the most enlightened social constructs available in Europe and most of the known world.

Sure, but the Spanish weren't crazed or "Islamophobic" to view the Moors as invaders, right? I mean, they did invade. Yes, I know they were there for a long time and had impressive cultural accomplishments in Spain, but the modern Spanish national identity was forged on the anvil of resistance to the Moors . . . . And while the Spanish were definitely very brutal in the New World, the fact is that Latinos are "Spanish-culture affiliated"--how can you even argue against that--e.g., they speak Spanish!! So all I'm saying is that Spanish culture has some lingering problems with Islam that are historically-based. That seems pretty factual to me.

115 · rob said

113 · Zazou
In addition, under the Andalusian kingdoms, at one point, "Spain" possessed one of the most enlightened social constructs available in Europe and most of the known world.

Sure, but the Spanish weren't crazed or "Islamophobic" to view the Moors as invaders, right? I mean, they did invade. Yes, I know they were there for a long time and had impressive cultural accomplishments in Spain, but the modern Spanish national identity was forged on the anvil of resistance to the Moors . . . . And while the Spanish were definitely very brutal in the New World, the fact is that Latinos are "Spanish-culture affiliated"--how can you even argue against that--e.g., they speak Spanish!! So all I'm saying is that Spanish culture has some lingering problems with Islam that are historically-based. That seems pretty factual to me.

So immigrants from Latin America in 21st century USA should feel Islamophobic because of the Moorish invasion of Spain in the 8th century?

116 · Maya So immigrants from Latin America in 21st century USA should feel Islamophobic because of the Moorish invasion of Spain in the 8th century?

No, I'm not saying that at all! Just let's not be too quick to trot out the "Islamophobia" card when discussing culturally Spanish people's views on Islam--there is a 'there' there.

Sure, but the Spanish weren't crazed or "Islamophobic" to view the Moors as invaders, right?

Oh no, I'm sorry, the correct answer is Moops.

116 · Maya So immigrants from Latin America in 21st century USA should feel Islamophobic because of the Moorish invasion of Spain in the 8th century?

But, upon reflection, and to more directly answer your rhetorical question, which is framed to make saying "yes" look stupid--"yes, a bit"--it's not as if the Muslim world is impressive in terms of its tolerance--just look at the cartoons in Egyptian newspapers--so, if you want to call a lingering suspicion "phobic," go ahead, it cares me nothing.

No, I'm not saying that at all! Just let's not be too quick to trot out the "Islamophobia" card when discussing culturally Spanish people's views on Islam--there is a 'there' there.

Wait a minute, you're saying that Spanish people would a historic reason to feel theatened by Muslims (that's disconnected to the American/European version of Islamophobia), and this is because they were invaded and culturally appropriated,

but isn't that what happened to the majority of the Latino population themselves? wouldn't they likewise feel threatened by Spanish culture, including any attempt to "pass on" this fear of muslim invasion and cultural appropriation?

Why would the Mexicans, South Americans, etc... be so open to investing themselves into the culture of their invaders, while the Spanish harbor all kinds of fears and antipathies towards their invaders?

See, e.g.,this--I'm genuinely puzzled as to why Latinos are to be condemned for (allegedly--I'm actually not sure what the reality is) not getting on board some sort of fashionable academic construction in which Muslims are always victims and never victimizers.

120 · HMF

Why would the Mexicans, South Americans, etc... be so open to investing themselves into the culture of their invaders, while the Spanish harbor all kinds of fears and antipathies towards their invaders?

I don't know (although part of the answer is obviously that Mexicans aren't some sort of non-Spanish block--that's why you have more racial tension, I think, in Latin American countries like Bolivia where the Spanish-indigenous divide is more obvious--i.e., fewer mestizos (not that it doesn't exist in Mexico, but it's less pronounced than in Bolivia)--that's actually a very interesting and complicated question, not that dissimilar from the issue of our (desi) use of English on this very blog--but, at the end of the day, it is factually incorrect to think that Latin Americans don't share a lot of cultural assumptions with the Spanish (not on every issue, mind you, but on a lot of them).

Obama gave a little shout out to Kal Penn in his US magazine interview. This is what he said when asked if he was starstuck.

I don't really get starstruck. Everyone I've met has been very nice and friendly, like Kal Penn. During the writers' strike, he was like a staffer!

Oh and he refused to answer their silly Boxers or briefs question with humor.

it is factually incorrect to think that Latin Americans don't share a lot of cultural assumptions with the Spanish (not on every issue, mind you, but on a lot of them).

Rob,

Let me please ask you few simple questions:

a) Have you been to Spain, and Latin American countries?
b) How much have you interacted with Spaniards, and Latin Americans?

My PhD advisor, close friends were/ are Spaniards, I have worked in Spain, I have interacted with lot of Latin Americans in South here...........trust me, apart from, language, religious mores, and affinity for similar music, and culture, there is no transference of deeper traits, as you have been implying all along on this thread. Spain, and Latin America are two very distinct entities, they have grown on their own distinct paths. They (Latin Americans) have affinity for Spain, but no "genetic" passing of phobias, etc.

Spaniards left South America long time ago.

124 · Kush Tandon

Kush,
You're a good guy, so we'll just to agree to disagree, with me certainly conceding that I'm no expert. But, the (mainly Cubans and Venezuelans) that I know very well are totally into Spanish (as in European Spanish) culture. I'm sure that it varies a lot.

The Spanish 'antipathy' toward 'the Moors' is more a 'religious' thing than an invader-invaded thing (I think). The Moors ruled mainland (peninsular) Spain from roughly 711 AD on, for about five centuries. And they were in Granada for another three centuries. So it would be hard for ordinary folk to see them as 'invaders' for that long. But for European Kings, and crusaders influenced by Catholic doctrine, they were seen as 'religious Others', and perhaps also as 'racial Others'. For no other reason than that, the Moors were 'driven out' of Spain, and the Spanish were converted to Catholicism, many forcibly.

So if there is a antipathy toward Muslims ('Islamophobia') among Hispanics in the US - it would be more from an indoctrinated religious Otherization than any (manufactured) memory of 'having been invaded'. (When? Like thirteen hundred years ago?)

hmmm, i had this spanish/latin american discussion with an ex spanish gf a few times. she was from vigo, near Portugal, itself a somewhat different culture from madrid, etc. but her mom was originally from venezuela and so there was a large cultural difference, she thought, between herself and her cousins.

basically her cousins where venezuelan bombshells, i'm sure you know the type, and she didn't think this to be very Spanish. they, however, had great affinity for Spain, not really seeing the difference.

we never discussed Muslims except once her parents had some exchange students from Somalia come and stay.

126 · chachaji

I think you are at risk of treating Latinos too much like your average white American (who is very "modern" and not too caught up with historical/cultural linkages). I think (with some significant evidence, though I immediately concede far from conclusive evidence) that their identification with Spanish history/culture is quite deep. As I said to Kush, though, this is almost certain to vary a lot.

And Rob, while you are making sweeping statements about how Latin Americans should hold onto centuries-old grouses inherited from their own invaders, could you also advice us how Latin-American Muslims are supposed to feel on the subject ?

129 · Maya

And Rob, while you are making sweeping statements about how Latin Americans should hold onto centuries-old grouses inherited from their own invaders, could you also advice us how Latin-American Muslims are supposed to feel on the subject ?

Maya,
You are making the "is implies ought" fallacy here. I'm not saying Latinos should do anything. I'm just trying to describe at a finer grain of detail what's going on, rather than just slapping the "Islamophobic" label on Latinos. As far as Latin American Muslims go, Argentinian President Menem was of course of Arabic background (though a convert to Catholicism--hello, Bobby Jindal!! ;-) The chickens are starting to come home to roost in Argentina, though, in terms of gov't collaboration with the Hezbollah attacks on the Jewish community center in Buenos Aries.

Well, I haven't seen this angle covered as much through this conversation, but this whole event made me think about my status in everyday Americana. To clarify, I am a Sikh woman in a turban. I have seen Sikhs and Muslims, including myself, do rather well in corporate, university and not-for-profit settings, etc. Lately, things have been going so well for me, that I've almost led myself to believe that there is no ceiling. That despite prejudice, because I'm qualified and work-hard, all opportunities are open to me. And after all, my boyfriend's family is Anglo and they've embraced me at the dinner table. Why won't others?

After looking at the amount of shock, disgust, denial and statements from the left..the LEFT after this photo, I'm pretty friggin disturbed. Is anyone else? Of course I'm aware of the scrutiny that Muslims and Sikhs faced after 9-11, but to many of us, it seemed very contained to 'those' folk. This makes me feel differently, deep in my gut. Is anyone else feeling the same way? Obviously, I'll keep up the fight; this won't stop me. But I ask you, my community, if you've trembled in the same way...and not out of weakness, but out of acknowledgement.

Sona, I doubt you'd be well received if you ran for office any time soon.

132 · Ennis said

Sona, I doubt you'd be well received if you ran for office any time soon.

or, maybe she'll be received like this.

rob, with all due respect (because I do NOT think you are unintelligent), both your description and your rationale re: people born in Latin America, Spaniards, U.S.-born Latinos and Islamophobia makes no sense.

134 · Camille rob, with all due respect (because I do NOT think you are unintelligent), both your description and your rationale re: people born in Latin America, Spaniards, U.S.-born Latinos and Islamophobia makes no sense.

Camille,
No offense at all taken--please say more. I've probably said too much, so just let me summarize with one sentence--I think that (1) modern Spanish national identity/culture keys off of (in a crucial sense) the defeat/expulsion of the Moors, and (2) many Latinos share a lot of cultural affinities with Spain (including this one re: the Moors). I'm not saying that they logically should, just that a lot in fact do.

modern Spanish national identity/culture keys off of (in a crucial sense) the defeat/expulsion of the Moors,

Modern Spanish national identity keys off the following (in descending) order:

1) Spanish Civil War
2) General Franco, and later return to democracy, and the role of Spanish Royal family in bringing democracy
3) Relationship with Basque, and France
4) Spanish conquest, the age of exploration and discovery, colonialism related to Spain as being once a super power.

...
...
...
10) Moors

Their civil war trumps everything by orders of magnitude.

I have spent couple of weeks in Granada in 1996 - that place show cases Moorish influence (example Alambra, and all the architecture there) in the most sophisticated way, and Andalucia is teaming with Moroccans (legal, and illegal immigrants), and mixed races.

I forgot

5) Spanish inquisition

I forgot

5) Spanish inquisition

It's alright. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

136 · Kush Tandon and Andalucia is teaming with Moroccans (legal, and illegal immigrants), and mixed races.

Kush, sure--but--how do the Spaniards feel about that? Now I will throw back the question you asked me--do you know many "real" Spaniards? I'm saying they're awfully "phobic" about it (way more than Americans)! And by mentioning this fact, I'm not condoning it. But it's a true fact in the world. Europe is dying, but the average man on the (Spanish) street is pretty pissed about it.

(2) many Latinos share a lot of cultural affinities with Spain (including this one re: the Moors). I'm not saying that they logically should, just that a lot in fact do.

I've never met a Chicano voter who spent much time defining their identity via the the Moorish-Christian conflict of the 1400s.

Modern Spanish national identity keys off the following (in descending) order:

Also, where does The Macarena fit in?

140 · Ennis

I've never met a Chicano voter who spent much time defining their identity via the the Moorish-Christian conflict of the 1400s.

Nor have I, but Chicano is but a sub-section of Latino--go to Miami, or to an upscale business or restaurant in Mexico City or Lima, and you'll be surprised at how "lit" they are on the subject if you get them talking about it.

Another case of Clinton xenophobia:

Hillary Clinton claims Obama needs Moor scrutiny

Have some more pillows, Manju.

Also, where does The Macarena fit in?

definitely below La chucaracha

do you know many "real" Spaniards?

Yes, I do. In 90s, I interacted, worked, partied with them - dozens of them. In 1995, I was on a drill ship that had Spanish drillers, with from other nationalities too.

Yes, they do have phobia for Moroccan immigrants - no more, no less than anyone else around the world has for the "others". In fact, lot less, tension than Germany, France, and UK has for others. That was one of the reasons Madrid train bombing was relatively easy, and they have found so many terror cells in Spain recently. It was more easy there than other places in Europe. Yes, Spain is also a deeply Catholic nation, and played a crucial role in Crusades.

This said, walk on the streets of Granada - you will see Moroccans all over.

What struck me was the % of mixed races in Southern Spain, more than any other place in Europe.

Ennis, you touched this topic off in #47--I'm trying to explain why Latinos might have a cultural suspicion of Islam--what is your position, that it's wholly irrational?

I think your efforts to ground it in Spanish experience is off-base.

Have some more pillows, Manju.

Well, could I just point out that, in the last several threads, I seem to get offered pillows first question all the time.

146 · Kush Tandon

What struck me was the % of mixed races in Southern Spain

I'm not sold on the concept that Spanish/North-African is "mixed race," (as opposed to mixed religion, or mixed ethnicity), but OK--I see what you're saying. I also think the Geert Wilders/Pim Fortuyn sort of "liberal" anti-Muslim politics has serious legs going forward in Europe. But that's just me. I'm happy to be in the US!

I think that Latino voters in the USA are:
(a) less exposed to Muslims than other groups, for example African-Americans. So while African-Americans have a positive impression of Islam (because of Malcolm X and Mohammed Ali and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, etc), Latino voters have an easier time accepting the fear mongering of the MSM.
(b) are similar to whites of a similar income level in their attitudes in many ways, which includes absorption of many of the same prejudices. This means that many Latinos have similar perspectives to poor whites.
(c) are very Christian - either Catholic or Evangelical - and have a distrust of other religions in general.

These broad general statements come from long discussions with two friends, one of whom is Latino and has done community politics amongst Chicanos in CA, while the other crunches numbers on demographics and attitudes for a living. They told me pretty similar stories even though they were looking at quite different data.

148 Ennis

I think your efforts to ground it in Spanish experience is off-base.

Well, I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but my Cuban and Venezuelan friends are pretty "Islamophobic" (if one insists on calling it that) based on their identification with Iberian history. I do realize that that doesn't obviously generalize to the modal US Latino.

151 · Ennis

So while African-Americans have a positive impression of Islam

Wow, I don't have any statistics at hand, but, boy, that's not true of the fervently Christian African-Americans I know. They are way more anti-Islamic than your average white liberal.

Wow, I don't have any statistics at hand, but, boy, that's not true of the fervently Christian African-Americans I know. They are way more anti-Islamic than your average white liberal.

When I walk in "the hood" I'm generally greeted positively based on the misimpression that I'm a Muslim. This is very different from the way I'm greeted by poor whites.

More generally, the African-Americans I've interacted with didn't have a blanket negative impression of Islam because they could think of positive Muslim figures.

I've also seen polling figures to back this up indirectly; black voters were a lot more resistant when it came to War on Terror rhetoric and justifications.

154 · Ennis

When I walk in "the hood" I'm generally greeted positively based on the misimpression that I'm a Muslim. This is very different from the way I'm greeted by poor whites.

More generally, the African-Americans I've interacted with didn't have a blanket negative impression of Islam because they could think of positive Muslim figures.

I've also seen polling figures to back this up indirectly; black voters were a lot more resistant when it came to War on Terror rhetoric and justifications.

Interesting. You may well be right. But there are a lot of questions here, so it's hard to say for sure. So, for example, if African-Americans that I interact with assume (correctly, though on less than good evidence) that I'm not Muslim, they may say things other than if they (incorrectly) assume that you're Muslim. I'm sure that this phenomenon (to the extent it exists) extends beyond African-Americans and includes whites, Latinos, other desis, etc.

Rob: there is a growing trend in Spain to re-examine their attitude towards their "Muslim" roots- which should be more appropriately called Moorish. Spanish is 10% Arabic-origin words and there are aspects of Spanish culture which have a lot in common with North Africa and visa-versa. There is a greater cultural explaoration going on in Spain which is able to see past a)Franco's uber-nationalist construct which positions Spain as Spanish (ie: Castillano-and tehrefore screwing everyone else) and b) the current extremism in Islam which is expressing itself much as radical Catholicism and Protestatism have over the last two centuries.

As for the "new world"- various countries relate to their Spanish roots in various ways. Mexico keeps Spanish (having Mexicanized it), but had a Mexicanidad movement which rejected the racial snobbism implicit in festishizing Spain. To this day, there is a strong indigena movement which clearly sees the Spanish as the nasty branch of the famiy that raped the other.

Also, you have to remember that for many, going to the New World was a way to get away from the Spanish Inquisition and the Spanish Inquisition followed them almost a century later to rain down its fury on people who secretly went back to being Muslim or Jews.

As for Arabs in Latin America, many who immigrated were Christians, leaving at the tail end of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Chile and Brazil, for example, opened their doors. One of the places Palestinians fled to after 1947-48, was Latin America, where either they had family or where there were already established Lebanese communities. The influx of Muslim Arabs is relatively recent into the US and Latin America and the development of radical elements even more so.

If there is a memory of dealing with the Arab World in a negative way, it lies mostly in Europe. The Spanish brought slavery, disease, surpression of religious practices and a new, not terribly tolerant religion to a region where they created another race and taught them to hate themselves and then had several nasty independence fights when their children rose up against them.

156 · zazou Rob: there is a growing trend in Spain to re-examine their attitude towards their "Muslim" roots- which should be more appropriately called Moorish. Spanish is 10% Arabic-origin words and there are aspects of Spanish culture which have a lot in common with North Africa and visa-versa. There is a greater cultural exploration going on in Spain

Zazou,
All true, very true, and please don't read anything I've said to contradict this. But, be careful to disambiguate elite trends with the view of the "man on street." The latter doesn't bode as well for Muslims in Spain (or, more broadly speaking, Europe), I'm afraid.

83 · Manju said

revisting the first SM thread on obmana is very entertaining at this time.

He may have denounced and rejected the Farrakhan, but one year later, Obama has yet to speak out against the Decepticon.

My imaginary Basque friend says that Spaniards love arguments based on incontrovertible personal anecdotes and reductionism :)

159 · Rahul

My imaginary Basque friend says that Spaniards love arguments based on incontrovertible personal anecdotes and reductionism :)

Heh--point taken! Still I don't see any evidence to the contrary!

136 · Kush Tandon Modern Spanish national identity keys off the following (in descending) order:

1) Spanish Civil War
2) General Franco

I think 1 & 2 help define one's position as a Spaniard, politically, but don't go to the underlying issue of who is a Spaniard/what Spain is all about, which I'm claiming goes to the Reconquista.

I have been a consistent, before I go any further, a consistent denunciator of Louis Farrakhan, nobody challenges that

--Barack Obama

Ennis - apparently you have some skills in finding photos of girls on the Internet! I wonder what other girls you can spot w/ your speedy surfing skills. And really, did you have to find such an awful photo ;)? Honestly, I'm surprised you felt the need to do that when you don't even share your photo w/ others on the site.

And to you and Manju, I actually don't have any political aspirations...I was more thinking about the unspoken connections of this story to the lives of us mere mortals...ha.

159 · Rahul said

My imaginary Basque friend says that Spaniards love arguments based on incontrovertible personal anecdotes and reductionism :)

hey, i actually once witnessed an argument between a basque couple and a spaniard. the basques backed down, after an intervention by a galician. the basques were stoned though, and outmached intellectually by the spaniard, who's scientific genius, but abnoxious.

163 · Sona said

Ennis - apparently you have some skills in finding photos of girls on the Internet! I wonder what other girls you can spot w/ your speedy surfing skills.

necessity is the mother of invention

I have been a consistent, before I go any further, a consistent denunciator of Louis Farrakhan, nobody challenges that

again, all about context, although, I made my claim based on Obama's statement in the debate, and he certainly didn't denounce him as a racist, as you had claimed in your #71 post. You may believe Farrakhan is a racist, but don't graft that onto Obama.

Honestly, I'm surprised you felt the need to do that when you don't even share your photo w/ others on the site.

Seconded. Not cool. I know how unnerving it is to have a photo of you posted or linked to without your explicit permission first. The first picture that comes up when you Google me, however, is pretty accurate. Take note, Ennis.

143 · Manju said

Another case of Clinton xenophobia:

Hillary Clinton claims Obama needs Moor scrutiny

She might think that the boy is not suitable, but having felt a tremor in the ground beneath her feet, she's hoping against hope that the Moor will give his last sigh and leave, which at least would make people stop talking about how HRC got dissed, got riled and got a wife.

Now when did Ann Coulter become HRC's campaign advisor? If Miss Adam's Apple Coulter hasn't already joined Hilary, it certainly seems like she must have had some influence or effect on Mrs. Clinton's campaign strategies.

If Miss Adam's Apple Coulter hasn't already joined Hilary, it certainly seems like she must have had some influence or effect on Mrs. Clinton's campaign strategies.

Maybe Tim Russert should have asked Hillary if she rejects, denounces, rejects, vituperates, condemns, objects, and sh*ts on Ann Coulter's support?

Honestly, I'm surprised you felt the need to do that when you don't even share your photo w/ others on the site.

My bad. Sorry, that was uncool, I really wasn't thinking at all. I'll remove it now.

Stephanie Tubbs Jones needs an emergency injection of STFU. She knows perfectly damn well that Obama's native country is the USA, otherwise *he wouldn't be allowed to seek the Presidential nomination in the first place.* I think even Dubya knows that rule.

My perception (and I run with a pretty pro-Obama crowd so I may be biased) is that "Turban Gate" has blown up in Hillary Clinton's face as much as Obama's, if not more. Obviously it's not like he did anything wrong, it shouldn't be an issue if he wore a turban or not, but obviously whoever released the pictures was counting on an "OMG Stealth Muslim!!1!" reaction from a lot of ignorant people. And I think that reaction has occurred, but I also know there are plenty of people who dismiss the pictures as a sign of Hillary's increasing desperation. I don't know which group outnumbers the other... for whatever this is worth, my parents are white, mushy-centrist folks who live in a red state, and they pretty much just shrugged at this story.

Having said all that, it's true we only have Drudge's word that Hillary released the photos. However, I think this is where getting ugly in South Carolina was a HUGE tactical mistake for the Clintons. The Jesse Jackson remark showed they're willing to take cheap shots, which I think makes it easier for people to believe they would take this cheap shot too. If Hillary is not responsible for the release of the photos, she is at least partially responsible for the perception that she would.

And in an odd way, it might be good that these pictures are coming out now. Fairly or unfairly, I think they pack less punch coming from the Clinton campaign during primary season, than they would coming from the GOP in October. (Again, with the obvious caveat that they SHOULDN'T pack any punch at all)

Speaking only for myself I can say, if we elect Obama, I will actually feel a little bit of pride at being an American again.

I appreciate that, Ennis. Thanks ;).

170 · HMF
Maybe Tim Russert should have asked Hillary if she rejects, denounces, rejects, vituperates, condemns, objects, and sh*ts on Ann Coulter's support?

When Coulter said she would vote for H. Clinton instead of voting for McCain, I really believe she was being facetious in this case. She says many outrageous and funny things to get attention, sell books, etc. There are some topics in which she is very serious like converting the entire world to Christianity, the widows of 9/11 "reveling" in their husbands' deaths, and so forth. She is (most likely) just joking about voting for Clinton.

Andalucia is teaming with Moroccans (legal, and illegal immigrants), and mixed races.

175 · bess said

Andalucia is teaming with Moroccans (legal, and illegal immigrants), and mixed races.

it's also teaming with some fantastic hashish - so I've heard from my imaginary Spanish friends...

Er... did you folks mean 'teeming'? One more for the homonym collection.

teeming teams, ah who gives a hashit?

When Coulter said she would vote for H. Clinton instead of voting for McCain, I really believe she was being facetious in this case. She says many outrageous and funny things to get attention, sell books, etc. There are some topics in which she is very serious like converting the entire world to Christianity, the widows of 9/11 "reveling" in their husbands' deaths, and so forth. She is (most likely) just joking about voting for Clinton.

either way, she doesn't make her statement as such. See, the difference between her and Michael Moore for example, is that Michael Moore knows he's joking, he knows he's being sarcastic. But Coulter doesn't, she doesn't consider herself a satirist (of course, unwittingly, she is) rather an "honest" commenter. Do you believe Univ of Michigan actually gave her a law degree? in my book, that school's law degree might as well be someone scribbling "law" on an olive garden place mat.

I denounce ann coulter's anti-911 widows statements.

but do you reject her support?

Final thought from me on this subject, courtesy of a (non-imaginary!) Cuban--Cubans call black beans and rice "Moros y Christianos," which I think betrays the cultural salience of historical events in Iberia to at least some Latinos.

but do you reject her support?

I'm happy to concede the point, and I would reject and denounce.

I'm happy to concede the point, and I would reject and denounce.

As a human being?

As a human being?

That would make sense if Coulter possessed any humanity.

As a human being?

If I reject and denounce her as a human being does that mean I must include the adamas apple?

That would make sense if Coulter possessed any humanity.

Just because she doesn't do well with blacks and moguls?

No, because she has applied anti-truth lotion all over her body.

so i was watching clinton (and obama) on 60 minutes 2night and Clinton was asked if she thought obama was a Muslim and she replies:

"i take him on the basis of what he says." "there's nothing to base that on, as far as I know"

hmmm, that's what you say when you think someone's lying but you want to appear generous while maintaining the possiblility that they did it, like obama's response in the debate as to whether he thought the Clinton camp sent out that photo ("i take her at her word"). sounded funny. you can check out the video (ohio segment) on 60min website, around 11:40 in. there's a ray gun story that pretty cool too.

186 · Rahul said

That would make sense if Coulter possessed any humanity.

Just because she doesn't do well with blacks and moguls?

Is this a true story or a fictional account with grotesque symbols? Just wondering if anyone knew. The ending was very nauseating yet funny.

hmmm, that's what you say when you think someone's lying but you want to appear generous while maintaining the possiblility that they did it,

True, it's also telling the people who are indeed considering voting against Obama because of some preconceived notion that he is muslim or has muslim ties (like the paper making gentlemen interviewed in that 60 mins segment) that, that is a viable reason to vote against him, because there is some minute possibility that it's true.

Another clear indication of white privilege in tonight's primary(ies). The Resco and Canadian embassy meeting clearly had an effect on Obama's perfomance, not to mention the picture in this very post. Obama should be held accountable for the first two, however, as a black person running, it means he will be implicitly held to higher standards of propriety and morality (part of which is his doing in the first place, as he's running on the , 'I'm not washington as usual' ticket),

However, any claim that Hillary has been a target of misogyny is pretty much groundless. Why? Because to someone who will "never vote for a woman" would most likely, "never vote for a black man" either. That's for misogyny effecting actual votes, as for a misogynistic tint to media coverage. Again, falls short, because in Nov/Dec and even Jan, she was miss. media darling, it was only when Billary showed its ugly head that the press coverage turned south for her.

191 · HMF Because to someone who will "never vote for a woman" would most likely, "never vote for a black man" either.

That's way too simplistic--I'm not exactly up on that demographic, but I could easily come up with some counter-examples (which I don't care to go into, b/c they're so obvious).

That's way too simplistic--I'm not exactly up on that demographic, but I could easily come up with some counter-examples (which I don't care to go into, b/c they're so obvious).

Of course there's counterexamples, which is why I said, "most likely" I'll give you one, certain black males might not have a problem with voting for Obama, but may "never vote for a woman" regardless of who she was.

But say that every black male thought this way, (which is completely untrue) that means 50% of 12% of the population, 6%, would go against her by "misogyny", hardly enough to have an effect.

I'd say, in the realm of electoral politics, if someone is willing to judge purely on gender, they'd be fairly likely to judge on race as well.

Another clear indication of white privilege

This has to be the millionth post by HMF which somehow he brings up the issue of white privilege. Every little issue its the same thing over and over.

I'm beginning to think, that some desi girl you were seeing left you for some average looking white guy, and you never get over it.

I'm beginning to think, that some desi girl you were seeing left you for some average looking white guy, and you never get over it.

Gee, you're 'beginning' to think. Most have jumped on that assumption bandwagon eons ago.

Maybe it's the 'millionth' post addressing white privilege, because its a phenomenon that so few admit to (normally it's whites that deny it, but as is clearly evident, many non-whites are up to their necks in denial as well) Of course if you just get over whatever assumptions you feel like making and actually look at the evidence, Obama's Canada fiasco is small potatoes compared to what the Clinton's have done, including Hillary's being the second largest receiver of health care contributions, yet she parades as the "true voice" for universal healthcare, of course what it really is, is universal purchasing of the health insurance industry's product.

Time and time again, we've seen that black and brown folks have been held to much higher standards of morality and propriety, just look at the criminal justice system, and it's the same thing panning out, in the electoral competition. I did in my post however, point out that this phenom is being exacerbated strongly by Obama's own statements on "being a deviation from Washington", etc.. etc...

Now SD, the relative correctness of your assumption is fairly irrelevant, but if you don't think white privilege operates in female-->male assessments of worth and essence of being, (and it operates in the other direction as well, but I'm going with the direction you mentioned) then you're pretty naive on that front as well.

However, any claim that Hillary has been a target of misogyny is pretty much groundless. Why? Because to someone who will "never vote for a woman" would most likely, "never vote for a black man" either. That's for misogyny effecting actual votes

NOT TRUE. By a wide margin.