Thanks, Amardeep.

I still have twice as many photos to publish/ post.

Accidentally, I made movies with my camera on Roorkee railway station one morning - like, people brushing teeth by the platform, etc. I'll post them. They might be the most unique thing I did in December, 2007.

I need to figure where to .mov files.

If you SCROLL TO THE BOTTOM of
http://www.ninapaley.com/IndiaPix3.html
there is a photo of Trivandrum's Technopark in 2002, which looks like magic fairyland.

Looks like a lot of smog in the background.
cough! cough!

3 · Atool said

Looks like a lot of smog in the background.
cough! cough!

Sigh! Maybe this would be something you want to read.

Nice pictures, Kush, and interesting thread, Amardeep.

I know this is not just about campuses, but among recently built campuses in India, the BITS Pilani campus at Goa (which I had mentioned before on a different thread) and the IIM Kozhikode (Calicut) campus are really nice. See flash slideshows here (including a high-res 360-deg pan with zoom) and here.

Although the campus at Roorkee is aesthetically pleasing, and strongly reminiscent of 19th Century Raj architectural styles and town planning - I also noticed that IIT Roorkee has the highest faculty vacancy rate among all IITs. Kush, do you think this is because of its recent upgradation to 'IIT' status, or does the relative isolation of Roorkee also play some part? (with Amardeep's permission, hope this won't be considered too much of a threadjack). The 8 new IITs that have been proposed and 'approved' - are likely to be located in non-metropolitan areas, and I think that will compound faculty recruitment problems by an order of magnitude.

I personally like the photo because it defies the clichés regarding what India looks like

some of the older universities i've seen are just as grand

osmania u

banaras hindu university

aligarh muslim university

I jus came back from visiting Delhi and Goa (went to India after eight years). No matter how hard you try, pictures taken in Delhi tend to be blurry. I guess its the smog and dust but its def improving. Loved the toll road they built right next to the airport. Saw the metro construction goin on everywhere, didn't get the time to ride in one tho.

I also noticed that IIT Roorkee has the highest faculty vacancy rate among all IITs. Kush, do you think this is because of its recent upgradation to 'IIT' status, or does the relative isolation of Roorkee also play some part?

Ok, a little digression, as this thread is about pictures of India.

Yes, re: "highest faculty vacancy" problem, it is, in part of many reasons:

a) Roorkee right now wants to build a staff that is comparable to a place like IIT, Kanpur***. I am using IIT Kanpur (Kalyanpur) as a gold standard. But first, usually they do not get that type of applicants for jobs, and the ones they get face great challenges. The ones who join face an uphill tasks to make their dreams come true. Without giving much (or any) details, I meet a new faculty member at Roorkee in 12/ 07, who was hired after being at MIT and Harvard for many years late last year, wanted to return to India for family reasons. He had been there for a month but did not even have internet in his office. He wants to start a million dollar lab though.

b) Mandal Commission playing out.

c) All IITs have same problem. Finding right people.

d) Now regarding "relative isolation", I was chatting with 3-4 young unmarried faculty at Roorkee at a chai shop a few months ago, they said they were having hard time finding spouses since, it was not Bangalore, anyone moving to Roorkee will not be able to much employment opportunities, not comparable to something at Infosys or even close so their it is hard to convince to move to Roorkee. Yes, but isolation plays both ways - some benefits, and some bad points.

*** In Departments like Civil Engineering, they have always had the quality to none in India, but not so in all other Departmens.

Well, let's get back to pictures of India.

And Atool Bhayia, that is not smog, those are water fountains in the background, that water the University lawns have almost round the clock.

Roorkee Cantonment (the HQ for Bengal Sappers) is equally beautiful, scenic, and vast but for security reasons, they would not anyone photograph it.

6 · Yogi said

I personally like the photo because it defies the clichés regarding what India looks like

what do you mean, care to elaborate? what does India look like?

That is actually an interesting point. If we are saying that cliches do not represent this aspect of India, then that is true. But that's why they are cliches. In actuality, India does have a fair bit of colonial architecture, especially in places where there was reasonable British influence. I immediately think of Connaught Place in Delhi, Flora Fountain and VT in Bombay, Victoria Memorial in Kolkata among some. My college in Pune was from the late 1800s and most of our buildings were very much colonial and there are such buildings all over the country, not very well known but quite western in influence.

Kush, thanks for the detailed response. I've blogged some issues related to new IIT locations, mandates, etc on my blog, linked in above.

Back to the pictures thread here. Thanks Amardeep!

Amardeep,

Skyscrapercity India has a pretty good collection of pictures. Check these out

Some pictures from the above link

Kashmir in different seasons
Gulmarg, Kashmir
Agatti Island, Lakshadweep
Indosan Nipponji Temple, Bodh Gaya
Loktak Lake, Manipur
Batasia Loop, Darjeeling
Amar Vilas Hotel, Agra
Beaches in Lakshadweep

I found this on the Skyscrapercity link from #12.

Almost a bewildering take on a contemporary temple. This temple is like the guy who wears totally mismatched clothes, turns to you and says, "what, what's your problem?".

link

Folks, a discussion of what's happening at the different IITs might not be relevant to photography, but it seems like a good topic for discussion... so please carry on, if you have issues you wish to discuss.

(For instance, I have a friend who graduated from Roorkee just before it got converted to an IIT, and he says the quality of the institution has gone down since then, owing partly to the exam structure: in the old days, Roorkee had its own "All India" entrance exam, now students are admitted based on JEE, and all of the best JEE admittees go elsewhere)

On the photos front, Khoofia (#7), thanks for the links! I especially liked this shot, of BHU-VT.

@#14 :)

Few more from SSC-India
The Oberoi Amar Vilas, Agra
The Oberoi UdaiVilas, Udaipur
The Mayfair, Darjeeling
Deer me :)

Yogi,

I think what is meant by the sentence you refer to is that not all of India is how it is depcited in Western Media, there is a different aspect of India which never gets any mention.

Amardeep, I will find some pictures from my last trip to Bombay this January and link them here.

Amardeep, BHU-IT was also an 'upgraded' IIT - the name was not changed, but sometime in the late 70s, it began accepting people who 'qualified' in the JEE - and the same thing used to be said about BHU-IT admits at one time. How true that is felt to be depends on who you ask, but the impact of IIT location on faculty and student quality first became a really stark issue with IIT Guwahati.

The real problems about the JEE are different - its lack of transparency - especially in things like cutoff scores (which, if reports are to be believed, reached the single digits in 2007 - out of 300 marks); the marking algorithm - e.g., which subject gets more weight - math, physics or chemistry; whether the algorithm (and also the difficulty of the exam, the quality of those who 'qualify' etc) varies depending on which IIT conducts the JEE in a particular year; it also seems to be mainly selecting people tutored in 'coaching and cramming' schools - the very thing it was supposedly designed to discourage; the level of the JEE is deliberately pitched very high to screen people out - but the statistical difference in ability between those who reached the merit list and those who didn't may be insignificant or even favor the latter. These issues will become all the more prominent as new IITs are started, and as the 'brand-awareness' of the IITs increases. The solution is partly to increase intake in each IIT, before new IITs come on-line, and also to increase transparency in the JEE. It should select 'for' certain attributes, and aptitude for technical studies - not have the sole purpose of screening people 'out' - which can be done also with a preliminary screening test, or other exam cutoff scores, or even recommendation letters, or some combination thereof.

I think what is meant by the sentence you refer to is that not all of India is how it is depcited in Western Media, there is a different aspect of India which never gets any mention.

(For instance, I have a friend who graduated from Roorkee just before it got converted to an IIT, and he says the quality of the institution has gone down since then, owing partly to the exam structure: in the old days, Roorkee had its own "All India" entrance exam, now students are admitted based on JEE, and all of the best JEE admittees go elsewhere

My apologies, I interpreted it otherwise

Less than 5000 students are admitted to the IITs each year, so even the worst of JEE admittees are amongst the best in India so I don't buy your friend's theory that the standards have gone down.

What Amardeep's friend meant is true:

a) There is very strong pecking order in students choosing IITs, with IIT Kalyanpur being on the top, and IIT Delhi following it. By the way, both IIT Kalyanpur and IIT Delhi have ugly, and unkept campuses. Next time, I go to India, I will try to photoshoot JNU, Delhi which has a different sense of vibrancy. Roorkee stands out not for its building (there are hazaar British Raj buildings in India all over), it is their devotional zeal to keep that campus pretty.

b) Typically, students within JEE go with that pecking order, and those pecking orders are strictly maintained in India for many reasons (for that matter here in US). So places like Roorkee (or IT BHU who had an arrangement to be part of IIT JEE exam but is not an IIT),

c) In past, if someone had a JEE 100 rank (or JEE 250), and Roorkee "All India" 5 rank, he or she might pick Roorkee. So Roorkee when separate had more wild cards (people choosing Roorkee over others), than being part of a big team. So Amardeep's friend, a Roorkee alum is not wrong.

This all said,

I was having in chai in cafe in Roorkee, a soldier (jawan) from Bengal Sappers came to one of newly hired faculty , and they chatted in Tamil for 15-20 minutes. He told us later, "His kids are 8-9 years old, and he wants them to study @ Roorkee. He wanted to know how he should start preparing them for admission?".

I meant: So places like Roorkee (or IT BHU who had an arrangement to be part of IIT JEE exam but is not an IIT), typically get lower quadrature with JEE ranking.

23 · Kush Tandon said

I meant: So places like Roorkee (or IT BHU who had an arrangement to be part of IIT JEE exam but is not an IIT), typically get lower quadrature with JEE ranking.

Kush, interesting comments, I agree generally speaking. To some extent it also depends on what you want to study. A determined Civil Engineer would be foolish to choose Kanpur over Roorkee, and a determined CS person would be foolish if (s)he chose Roorkee over Kanpur. BTW, I'm guessing you meant quartile.

Kush,

Thanks a lot for your commentary, from what I remember growing up some of my friends on a broader scale used to rank IIT, Bits, REC and so on. Do you think this still holds?

c) In past, if someone had a JEE 100 rank (or JEE 250), and Roorkee "All India" 5 rank, he or she might pick Roorkee.

I know many many many IITians and NOT ONE sane person who got a JEE rank of 100 or 250 would even consider Roorkee independent of how they ranked in Roorkee. Maybe if you got an IIT rank past 2000 and your choices were Kharagpur or Guwahati in a random engineering area. Roorkee was always a fallback unless you were in a field like civil engineering or architecture, where Roorkee clearly shines.

I don't think Amardeep's friend's claim makes sense. In past years, when Roorkee and IIT had separate entrance exams usually separated by around a week or so, I know many, many people who would skip the Roorkee exam either because of JEE fatigue or so that they did not waste time while preparing for the JEE (depending on which way the exams were ordered). If anything, the shared test increases the candidate pool for Roorkee (to a small extent), and the IIT tag might make some people consider it above some of the lower ranked IITs.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of the expansion of the IIT name to as yet untested schools. I think what is needed is to first make sure these schools raise their standards to the quality of the top 3 or 4 IITs (something which I don't think even Kharagpur and Guwahati meet today). This can be done by a combination of using the JEE exam and ranking as admission criteria to get a higher quality of students to these other schools, and also making sure that they have the teaching staff and infrastructure commensurate with a top IIT (facilities in an IIT generally far outstrip most other Indian colleges, the faculty are generally better too, although at the end of the day, the most significant difference is in student quality primarily because the JEE is such a competitive exam).

it also seems to be mainly selecting people tutored in 'coaching and cramming' schools - the very thing it was supposedly designed to discourage;

The problem of 'overfitting' has become a real issue only in the last 5 years or so, with many specialized residential training schools (like in Kota, and Ramaiah's in Hyderabad) cropping up. Students do nothing through their 11th and 12th grade but study for the JEE, doing tens of problems of each type that has shown up in recent JEEs, while completely neglecting their schools - which they can do because these coaching institutes start up their own schools which make sure the students have to do just enough to get a barely passing grade in the 12th standard examinations. This has led to the kind of disaster where even some top ranking students in recent JEEs have ended up struggling once they get to IIT, due to some combination of a complete lack of motivation as well as an absence of grounding in necessary fundamentals.

The IITs are attempting to fix this with a combination of requiring far higher cutoffs in the 12th standard examinations, as well as regular changes in the format of the JEE to prevent the coaching schools from gaming them. All that said, I disagree quite strongly with this claim:

but the statistical difference in ability between those who reached the merit list and those who didn't may be insignificant or even favor the latter.

While there may be borderline cases as there are in any highly competitive admission process and some qualified candidates miss out, while some others might end up doing well enough to make the cut on the day of the exam, the JEE is generally a very strong indicator of technical merit. Coaching schools definitely have the unfortunate effect that raw talent that is from a small town without a good peer group (although some of these people still leave their hometowns to spend 2 years in Kota or wherever), or people who cannot afford the high fees that these schools charge, are put at a disadvantage. However, the fact is that mere drill cannot transform any old student into JEE material, and that students who get into IITs through the JEE are still very capable. What is true is that there are still many capable (by an absolute standard) students who do not make it into the IITs, and outside of Pilani, some state colleges, and RECs, don't have very good secondary options.

The rise of coaching schools is a natural response to the fact that getting into an IIT is a life-changing event. What is needed is for more IIT quality schools to come up so that there is a 20-30x expansion in affordable, high quality college education. This will reduce to some extent the extreme pressure built into the system, and also make sure that more capable students get the education they deserve.

I'm guessing you meant quartile.

Yes, I meant quartile. Yes, a determined Civil Engineer would always study in Roorkee, but then India is now growing in subjects (like Computer Science, Biotechnology) that are dominated by Kalyanpur, Delhi. Fifty years ago and before, Civil Engineering was the king in India, when all the dams were being built, and before that canal building. Ganga canal in 1800s in some ways, before white revolution brought food to millions in India through irrigation.

umber desi, I think ranking in a young teenager mind in India is very much there, stronger than ever, but so is here, ask any high schooler here - or Tom Cruise's Risky Business.

But software "India Shinning" revolution is lead (man powered) by graduates from RECs, private colleges, since IITs either do MBAs @ IIMs or Wharton, work for investment banks in Hong Kong, move to USA.

So RECs, deemed Universities are doing the heavy lifting right now in 9% growth rate.

JEE Whaa?: To clarify, my comment on statistical differences in ability referred only to those at the bottom of the JEE merit list and those that didn't make it at all, and sometimes, as you said yourself, this difference can be in favor of the latter. The lack of suitable alternatives for these latter, is a real issue, and in part, is motivating the expansion of the IIT system.

A report in yesterday's Hindu quoting an ASSOCHAM study says that the top 40% of those who don't make it into IIT go abroad - spending US $ 10 billion yearly, costing India in foreign exchange, and arguing that this is enough to set up many more IITs than the 8 new ones currently being envisaged. In fact, it goes a step further in hinting that if India were to invest in its higher education sector, it could itself draw in students from abroad, turning the foreign exhange 'drain' into a revenue stream five or ten times as large.

Thanks Kush, I meant mental perception and how it comes into play now that there are many more IITs.

Kush Tandon #22
You don't have to be so condescending, I do know all about the JEE and the relative rankings and the hierarchy of the campuses.
The point I was trying to make was the even the person who comes dead last in the JEE (and though may be looked down upon by the other 4999 who
finished before him or her) has to be pretty smart considering the number of students that take JEE every year, I am sure the number is in hundreds
of thousands if not more, and any school that has such good raw material(in this case Roorkee) can't really be all that bad.
As far as the standards going down that is purely subjective opinion, how exactly do you measure these so called standards?

sadly, I haven't been to the subcontinent for over 12 years. But it's nice to see the pictures - nice contrast to my memories of India as a 10 year old.

JEE Whaa?: To clarify, my comment on statistical differences in ability referred only to those at the bottom of the JEE merit list and those that didn't make it at all, and sometimes, as you said yourself, this difference can be in favor of the latter. The lack of suitable alternatives for these latter, is a real issue, and in part, is motivating the expansion of the IIT system.

Yeah, the real issue is not the noise at the bottom of the list, which is always going to be the case in any system where demand exceeds supply, the real issue is the fact that I mentioned about those who don't make it still being capable at an absolute level.

A report in yesterday's Hindu quoting an ASSOCHAM study says that the top 40% of those who don't make it into IIT go abroad - spending US $ 10 billion yearly, costing India in foreign exchange, and arguing that this is enough to set up many more IITs than the 8 new ones currently being envisaged.

Yes, but right now, this expansion of the IIT system seems like a linguistic sleight. Simply calling an institution an IIT and admitting people off the JEE merit list doesn't make a school an IIT. You need high levels of infrastructure and faculty, something which I think has been difficult even to guarantee across the 5 old IITs (especially, Kharagpur, probably significantly due to its geographic isolation), leave alone Roorkee or Guwahati.

I agree with JEE whaaa? that I've never known of anyone who would have chosen Roorkee with rank 5 over an IIT with rank 100 or even 250 when it was not an IIT.

The real deterioration of the JEE, IMO is that they have done away with the wonderful analytical problems which were a trademark of that exam and Roorkee's and have moved to pure multiple choice, which doesn't allow much leeway for creativity etc. I have buddies who teach in IITs and they (and the senior faculty who have been teaching for decades) see a strong deterioration in the quality of students which they attribute to one thing - the gaming by Kota coaching centers and the like.

This overall trend might be what Amardeep's and Kush's friends are seeing in Roorkee. Except for people choosing one or two departments like civil, the Roorkee admissions were in effect, already more like an extension of the IITs by the 90s for this reason. I can only imagine that Roorkee's decision to join the IIT list was good for the institution because it is more likely that somebody desperate for some field like computer science might come there now (since it now has the IIT name) instead of accepting another branch at an IIT. This used to happen at IT-BHU where they would get people with ranks within 1000 just because of CS because CS would have close long since in the IITs.

Also, at least in the old days, IIT was accepting only about 2000 students (before multiple choice and Kota tricks), I felt that the top 10,000 students were excellent and any school that accepted people from that list was doing itself a favor. Unfortunately, these students were usually left with nothing unless they had planned a backup.

I am generally in agreement with JEE whaa?'s comments except. I would add to the remark about JEE being a great indicator of ability, that not making in the JEE was never an indicator of lacking ability.

The real deterioration of the JEE, IMO is that they have done away with the wonderful analytical problems which were a trademark of that exam and Roorkee's and have moved to pure multiple choice, which doesn't allow much leeway for creativity etc

whoa I did not know that, when did they make that change?

I think, in the last couple of years. The JEE entrance exam has been put under a fair amount of stress by the onslaught from the coaching farms, and I think changing the format was a strategy to eliminate the extremely exam-centric training methodology of these farms. My sense is that the format will change on a regular basis so that they can try and stay a beat ahead of the coaching farms, although it will be a tough battle.

I would add to the remark about JEE being a great indicator of ability, that not making in the JEE was never an indicator of lacking ability.

Fully agreed.

a) There is very strong pecking order in students choosing IITs, with IIT Kalyanpur being on the top, and IIT Delhi following it. By the way, both IIT Kalyanpur and IIT Delhi have ugly, and unkept campuses. Next time, I go to India, I will try to photoshoot JNU, Delhi which has a different sense of vibrancy. Roorkee stands out not for its building (there are hazaar British Raj buildings in India all over), it is their devotional zeal to keep that campus pretty.

b) Typically, students within JEE go with that pecking order, and those pecking orders are strictly maintained in India for many reasons (for that matter here in US). So places like Roorkee (or IT BHU who had an arrangement to be part of IIT JEE exam but is not an IIT),

Kush, this is a very UP point of view. How come so many people with JEE rank 1 (or 2 or 3) went to IIT Bombay and IIT Madras, then? The IITs are geographically distributed precisely so that more people can study closer to home. Why do you think IITM is filled with Tamil and Telugu kids? Hyderabad kids typically go to IITB or IITM. Mumbai kids prefer IITB. It's that simple. In fact, before Guwahati came around, if I heard any slightly about any IIT being not the best, it might have been Delhi or Kharagpur, quite opposite to what you say about Delhi being #2 and the rest following.

See where Delhi falls in this list.
http://admissionsync.com/2007/07/28/ranking-of-engineering-colleges-in-india/

The general impression was that except for Guwahati (because it was new), people paid much attention to ranking between the IITs while choosing and instead were crazy about branch.

If one were to really consider ranking, then look not at where the toppers went, but what rank each IIT closed at. For a couple of years in the late nineties (maybe more years, I wasn't paying much attention), CS closed first at IITM, despite the generally good reputation of IITK for that field. I attribute this to nothing but geography and the fact that there were more southies in the very top ranks that year. The geographical preference could be very strong in some people.

If one were surrounded by UPites at that age, it is natural that the order might have seemed like K,D,....

Kurma, solid points, especially the last one.

On the slow transformation of the JEE: the Math exam had gone to being partially multiple choice some time in the 1980s. Later the whole exam, including Physics and Chemistry, switched to being multiple choice (called 'objective type'), and now, instead of separate Math, Physics and Chemistry papers, the exam consists of two tests, each of which has questions from all 3 subjects.

The multiple choice is essential both to ensure objectivity and to deal with the huge numbers of students that take the exam. However, it decreases the scope for exhibiting creativity, but it can probe understanding deeply, if properly designed. But the fact that all 3 subjects are in the same test also increases the importance of the algorithm used in assigning relative weights to performance in the separate subjects in generating the merit list.

5 · chachaji said

The 8 new IITs that have been proposed and 'approved' - are likely to be located in non-metropolitan areas, and I think that will compound faculty recruitment problems by an order of magnitude.

I think that is good way to develop the non-metropolitan areas instead of monopolizing all the development in the urban centers. If you cannot attract faculty in the non-urban centers then the govt. has not served the social goal towards development which is not just churning out students.

On the slow transformation of the JEE: the Math exam had gone to being partially multiple choice some time in the 1980s. Later the whole exam, including Physics and Chemistry, switched to being multiple choice (called 'objective type'), and now, instead of separate Math, Physics and Chemistry papers, the exam consists of two tests, each of which has questions from all 3 subjects.

Partial multiple choice = 7-10 questions usually for a total of 15 to 20 points out of 100, which is a very reasonable format, and this was the general format through much of the 90s (at least till late 90s), except for the screening exam (which was just a cutoff to decide whether the full papers would be graded: this measure was introduced in 92 or 93 to deal with the vastly increasing numbers of students) which was all-objective. I don't know the details of the current multiple choice, but the multiple choice questions back then were truly multiple choice (i.e. more than one answer could be correct, and getting the points required checking ALL correct answers) and they were not easy.

If one were to really consider ranking, then look not at where the toppers went, but what rank each IIT closed at. For a couple of years in the late nineties (maybe more years, I wasn't paying much attention), CS closed first at IITM, despite the generally good reputation of IITK for that field. I attribute this to nothing but geography and the fact that there were more southies in the very top ranks that year. The geographical preference could be very strong in some people.

Kurma, well said. IITM closed earlier in CS even during the early 90s, by the way.

So, is someone going to post pictures of the coaching classes, or what?

Kurma, solid points, especially the last one

I meant in comment #33.

However, in response to #36, I would say that the original distribution of the IITs to the four metros plus Kanpur was designed at least partly to make sure people from one part of the country got to study in a different part. In practice if your rank was high enough you could go anywhere, but otherwise, there was a reasonable amount of mixing of people between the 'zones'.

It is this mixing, and the 'all-India' character of the IITs that will be threatened, if, as the system expands, the expansion locations are not in the largest metros and are instead in decidedly regional cities. This is one very strong argument for tripling the capacity of the existing IITs first, and bringing up the stragglers within the existing IITs, before new ones are located in 'regional' cities.

The multiple choice is essential both to ensure objectivity and to deal with the huge numbers of students that take the exam. However, it decreases the scope for exhibiting creativity

9 · Kush Tandon said

Now regarding "relative isolation", I was chatting with 3-4 young unmarried faculty at Roorkee at a chai shop a few months ago, they said they were having hard time finding spouses since, it was not Bangalore, anyone moving to Roorkee will not be able to much employment opportunities, not comparable to something at Infosys or even close so their it is hard to convince to move to Roorkee

Ah this is an interesting "social" issue. Lets assume that more and more women are going to have a career unlike most Indian grand-mothers and many Indian mothers. This means that future spouses of Indian men are going to as interested in career prospects rather than cooking. So if all the new institues ( or the economy of the areas themselves ) that are going to open in rural/semi-urban areas don't cater to the females then they are going to have problems recruiting people from urban areas unless the recruitment also acquires more of a local flavour. In such a scenario raising the profile and standards of these institues will become intimately linked to the growth and development of the surrounding areas. That should make for some real interesting social dynamics in the coming times.

This is a small guest house in a village called Panghot in Nainital.

41 · chachaji said

It is this mixing, and the 'all-India' character of the IITs that will be threatened, if, as the system expands, the expansion locations are not in the largest metros and are instead in decidedly regional cities. This is one very strong argument for tripling the capacity of the existing IITs first, and bringing up the stragglers within the existing IITs, before new ones are located in 'regional' cities.

I think I will disagree. There are many second-tier cities which can give a tough competition to the metros in attracting students. These second tier cities are doing quite well economically and can be useful launch pads for the new institues to spur development in the hinterland and not to mention developing those non-urban universities which are in bad shape ( especially non-technical education like humanities ). I guess development needs strong educational universities even in the non-engineering fields. And wonder why these new institues cannot be exploited to develop the unversities too.

9 · Kush Tandon said

Kalyan

Am I missing something that happened in India in the past 9 years. Has Kanpur city's name been changed to Kalyanpur? Or is Kalyanpur the mohalla where IIT-K is located? That is like calling IIT-M as IIT Guindy or IIT- Taramani :).

Thanks, chachaji. Also, I didn't know that the placing in metros was supposed to help mixing. That was just a guess. I have never read the history of how this was decided.

That makes me wonder, though. Why Kanpur then? Perhaps 2 for the region that had the highest population density? Why didn't Calcutta get one and Kharagpur get one? Bangalore and Hyd were not big cities back then and I can see why they didn't get one.

JEE whaaa? my mistake. I had actually meant early nineties. Dunno about any other time.

On the topic of Kush's pictures, those are really nice. BHU is a very pretty campus too. I have heard the same about IISc and BITS. IITB and IITM have nice campuses. There is a trend nowadays to build beautiful colleges in beautiful locations among the new private colleges coming up. This seems to impress the parents very much. That should make for some really Taj Mahal (not quite) pictures in the future. For now they look more like gaudy Ramayan/Mahabharat sets.

Like Amardeep mentioned, the (general) Western trained eye generally might want to shoot the dirty pic to make sure "reality" is captured while the desi eye (tired of seeing the garbage and poverty) generally seeks out beauty....oops, wandering into pure speculation territory, maybe offensive territory.

It is this mixing, and the 'all-India' character of the IITs that will be threatened, if, as the system expands, the expansion locations are not in the largest metros and are instead in decidedly regional cities.

Mixing might have been the intent, but in practice, IITs are very regionally weighted. As Kurma mentioned, IITM is dominated by people from Tamilnadu and Andhra, with a smaller number of Malayalis and Kannadigas, and a really small number of people from other parts of the country. Other IITs have similar distributions, except that the numerically dominant groups are decided by the region.

This is one very strong argument for tripling the capacity of the existing IITs first, and bringing up the stragglers within the existing IITs, before new ones are located in 'regional' cities.

To me, the biggest argument for doing this is quality. The existing IITs have certain baselines which are more easily maintained, and which are harder to produce in a new IIT. Of course, a new IIT hasn't yet been built in a centrally located place, so it might be the case that if an IIT were built in Hyderabad/Trivandrum/Bangalore/Bhopal etc., it might be easier to build it up quickly to a reasonable quality.

JEE whaaa? my mistake. I had actually meant early nineties. Dunno about any other time.

Kurma, did you go to an IIT? If so, which one? Maybe I know you :)

Or is Kalyanpur the mohalla where IIT-K is located? That is like calling IIT-M as IIT Guindy or IIT- Taramani :).

Well, IITB has long had the alternate name of IIT Powai around that region, no? Thaarams is teh rock!

#49. I might know you regardless of that. My name and photo are on the Facebook group Sepia Mutiny (on page 20 right now, Mallu name). My email is also linked on this comment. Let's try. Just trying to stay somewhat anon. here. Employers are trolling the internets nowadays, you know.

Vamsi, those picture of the Mayfair in Darjeeling are stunning. Have you (or anyone else who is reading this for that matter)ever been there?

Am I missing something that happened in India in the past 9 years. Has Kanpur city's name been changed to Kalyanpur? Or is Kalyanpur the mohalla where IIT-K is located? That is like calling IIT-M as IIT Guindy or IIT- Taramani :).

No, IIT Kanpur is not really in Kanpur city. It far away in a nowhere land near Kanpur (early on, there was an hour or bus ride from Kanpur, and no one lived on the route), that is known as Kalyanpur. That is where IIT is situated. Technically, you can call it IIT, Kanpur or IIT, Kalyanpur. IITians from IIT, Kalyanpur will make this distinction clear, that they are not from Kanpur city. Same goes with IIT, Powai/ IIT, Bombay.

However, in response to #36, I would say that the original distribution of the IITs to the four metros plus Kanpur was designed at least partly to make sure people from one part of the country got to study in a different part. In practice if your rank was high enough you could go anywhere, but otherwise, there was a reasonable amount of mixing of people between the 'zones'.

History of IITs is very interesting. Nehru visited MIT, he fell in love with a place like IIT, and he wanted institutes on similar lines for newly independent India. His first idea was to convert a newly minted University, formerly an engineering college, University of Roorkee to IIT. But then Chief Minister of UP, I think Govind Vallah Pant would not let the state control of Roorkee handed to central government, a place that already 100 year old history. Then Chief Minister of Bengal, BC Roy (another freedom fighter stalwart) offered Kharagpur. Kharagpur was political prisoner jail in British Raj, and early campus was built using old jail buildings.

Here is a wikipedia on history of IITs - in more formal terms. You will see how each IIT was picked.

it also seems to be mainly selecting people tutored in 'coaching and cramming' schools - the very thing it was supposedly designed to discourage;

The problem of 'overfitting' has become a real issue only in the last 5 years or so, with many specialized residential training schools (like in Kota, and Ramaiah's in Hyderabad) cropping up. Students do nothing through their 11th and 12th grade but study for the JEE, doing tens of problems of each type that has shown up in recent JEEs, while completely neglecting their schools - which they can do because these coaching institutes start up their own schools which make sure the students have to do just enough to get a barely passing grade in the 12th standard examinations. This has led to the kind of disaster where even some top ranking students in recent JEEs have ended up struggling once they get to IIT, due to some combination of a complete lack of motivation as well as an absence of grounding in necessary fundamentals.

The above seems to me to be either a classic case of "sour grapes" or simply snobbishness. I've been through the system and I can say with confidence that your average kid who goes to IIT (whether he used a coaching center or not) has the following two things in common:
1. She is significantly smarter than your average high school kid.
2. She has worked diligently towards the entrance exam in her high school.

(1) and (2) are practically common to almost everyone - its highly unusual to find an exception - coaching center or not. However, there are people who manage to satisfy (2) solely because of being put under the duress of a coaching center. Such lazy bones never manage to work hard once they find their freedom in college, and hence don't do as well anymore. In contrast, people who satisfied (2) without going to a coaching center tend to be more of hard workers and do better with their grades than some of these lazy bones.

It is generally true that students who intend to get into IIT do not care too much (irrespective of whether they go to a coaching school or not) about the 12th standard exams, but that is because 12th std exams are pretty basic when you are preparing for JEE. Also, I know for a fact that most students who do well in the JEE also get good marks in the 12th standard exams, contrary to your false claim that they get barely passing grade. Do you actually know a significant number of students who barely passed 12th and made it into IITs or is it your imagination?

In any case why would anyone have to cry foul over others getting tutoring from a coaching school? If it was indeed possible to cram for JEE, what makes you think those who did not go to a coaching school did not actually "cram" by themselves, or through a personal tutor or something? The fact is, the coaching schools are there because people are willing to buy their services. They are perfectly valid ways of competing, and in my opinion don't really change much in the grand scheme of things.

That was chachajis's comment:

However, in response to #36, I would say that the original distribution of the IITs to the four metros plus Kanpur was designed at least partly to make sure people from one part of the country got to study in a different part. In practice if your rank was high enough you could go anywhere, but otherwise, there was a reasonable amount of mixing of people between the 'zones'.

Mine is:

History of IITs is very interesting. Nehru visited MIT, he fell in love with a place like MIT, and he wanted institutes on similar lines for newly independent India. His first idea was to convert a newly minted University, formerly an engineering college, University of Roorkee to IIT. But then Chief Minister of UP, I think Govind Vallah Pant would not let the state control of Roorkee handed to central government, a place that already 100 year old history. Then Chief Minister of Bengal, BC Roy (another freedom fighter stalwart) offered Kharagpur. Kharagpur was political prisoner jail in British Raj, and early campus was built using old jail buildings.

Here is a wikipedia on history of IITs - in more formal terms. You will see how each IIT was picked. Do read the wikipedia article.

Also, I should pitch in that the reasons for the lack of motivation of some of these high ranking JEE students who dont do as well in college could have something to do with the structure of curriculum within IIT than on their coaching past, or their sloth. It is common knowledge that the reason for the success of the alumni is not exactly the education they received per se, but more that the quality of the students who attend the institutions is good.

The above seems to me to be either a classic case of "sour grapes" or simply snobbishness.

I have no reason to have a case of sour grapes or snobbery about this (I will leave it at that).

It is generally true that students who intend to get into IIT do not care too much (irrespective of whether they go to a coaching school or not) about the 12th standard exams, but that is because 12th std exams are pretty basic when you are preparing for JEE. Also, I know for a fact that most students who do well in the JEE also get good marks in the 12th standard exams, contrary to your false claim that they get barely passing grade. Do you actually know a significant number of students who barely passed 12th and made it into IITs or is it your imagination?

There is a reason the IITs changed the board exam requirement from passing grade to 60% in 2005. This was a real issue.

By the way, I have no reason to have a case of sour grapes or be snobbish about this (I will leave it at that).

In any case why would anyone have to cry foul over others getting tutoring from a coaching school? If it was indeed possible to cram for JEE, what makes you think those who did not go to a coaching school did not actually "cram" by themselves, or through a personal tutor or something? The fact is, the coaching schools are there because people are willing to buy their services. They are perfectly valid ways of competing, and in my opinion don't really change much in the grand scheme of things.

I did not say otherwise. Please reread my comment (I have highlighted the relevant part here) before taking it as a blanket indictment of the academic ability or general worthiness of people who went to coaching classes, or of coaching classes being illegitimate. The fact is, though, that this entire industry has led to undesirable side effects, and the system should be reformed to reduce the perverse incentives.

While there may be borderline cases as there are in any highly competitive admission process and some qualified candidates miss out, while some others might end up doing well enough to make the cut on the day of the exam, the JEE is generally a very strong indicator of technical merit. Coaching schools definitely have the unfortunate effect that raw talent that is from a small town without a good peer group (although some of these people still leave their hometowns to spend 2 years in Kota or wherever), or people who cannot afford the high fees that these schools charge, are put at a disadvantage. However, the fact is that mere drill cannot transform any old student into JEE material, and that students who get into IITs through the JEE are still very capable. What is true is that there are still many capable (by an absolute standard) students who do not make it into the IITs, and outside of Pilani, some state colleges, and RECs, don't have very good secondary options.

The rise of coaching schools is a natural response to the fact that getting into an IIT is a life-changing event. What is needed is for more IIT quality schools to come up so that there is a 20-30x expansion in affordable, high quality college education. This will reduce to some extent the extreme pressure built into the system, and also make sure that more capable students get the education they deserve.

Bridget Jones @45: Good point, in fact the new 'IITs' in Andhra, Bihar and Rajasthan are supposed to have strong programs in humanities, management sciences, and health sciences in addition to core engineering disciplines. So it does seem that the Planning Commission does intend for them to play a role similar to the one you outline. If that is the case, I say why not just have a well-funded Central university instead of an IIT, while existing IITs are strengthened and expanded, and the performance of those IITs that are lagging the average is improved.

JEE Whaa? Agree with you on the standards and baselines issue - that is a strong argument to increase the capacity of existing IITs. In addition, operating costs scale sublinearly with size, while start-up costs can be huge. So even on an economic basis alone, tripling the capacity of existing IITs over, say, five years, makes sense. But the Central Government seems to want them to do it even faster, almost immediately.

Kurma: In terms of the mixing - clearly there has been a shift over the years. There was a time when the five IITs put together had an intake of just under 1,000 students, and a separate merit list used to be developed for each 'zone' - the number of students who qualified from the five zones was roughly equal - about 180-220 each. So of course there would be mixing, but those with the highest ranks always went wherever they wanted.

But within the zones there were often huge imbalances, like students qualifying from Bombay or Delhi proper might be (say) 60% of all students qualifying from their respective zones. And BTW, Kanpur was set up before Delhi, and was originally meant for the entire Northern zone, only later the concept of a 'Central' zone was introduced, and an existing college of engineering in Delhi was upgraded to become an IIT for the Northern zone. So the 'mixing' rationale probably came later, but it did happen, and the IITs would often use it to convince those who did not get their choice of subject in their 'own zone' to travel and study outside their 'zones'.

There is a reason the IITs changed the board exam requirement from passing grade to 60% in 2005. This was a real issue.

Having a cutoff doesn't quite imply it was a "real issue". It could just mean there might have been a few stray cases, and even avoiding those stray cases is, of course, a perfectly worthy thing to do. And I repeat: Do you actually know a significant number of students who barely passed 12th and made it into IITs? I find it hard to believe a 'yes' for an answer to the above question.

I can only imagine that Roorkee's decision to join the IIT list was good for the institution because it is more likely that somebody desperate for some field like computer science might come there now (since it now has the IIT name) instead of accepting another branch at an IIT.

Roorkee becoming an IIT was a 60 year old issue, from the days of Govind Vallah Pant in 1950, it had even come up in the Indian Parliament a number of times almost like an recurring subject, also, regarding funding, and salaries.

However, what made it happen is......is that Roorkee city became part of new state Uttranchal, and when it became part of UA, the new UA Government did not have money to support the University, and pay salaries. So old history was immediately revisited, and fast tracked in the Parliament within a month or so.

It was financial crisis that was the tipping point. However, now, UA as a state is doing extremely well, with all tax breaks, especially sales tax.

Chachaji,

IIT history is more complicated, please read the wikipedia article. Read the visionary ideas by people like, Sir JC Ghosh.

In fact, in the first few batches (before JEE was instituted), they selected .001%m the toppers (or even less - something like that) from board exams from all States to these IITs, especially the early ones, Kharagpur, and Kanpur. I think it was after first few batches, IIT-JEE was constituted.

From day one, it was a pan Indian endeavor.

BTW, my photo journal linked by Amardeep has nothing to with IIT per se, I took pictures of places, and people I liked. Some of my favorite pictures there are of bazaars, and railway station.

IIT history is more complicated, please read the wikipedia article. Read the visionary ideas by people like, Sir JC Ghosh.

Kush, thanks for the link, and the history sketch of IIT Roorkee. I had no idea it went back that far, and that rather than being the 7th, it almost became the 1st IIT, or that the creation of Uttaranchal as a state had fast-tracked the idea.

here is one of my photographer friends, who recently won a fellowship to take pictures in india (he had been going there since 12th grade, learned the language etc) and was interested in the intersection of commerce, religion, and 'modernity' in religious places. his pictures might be what you consider 'stereotypical' India, although some have been taken in very unusual places.
i would love to know what people think. are you turned off by this representation of india? are you appreciative of the aesthetic in the pictures? do you think the artist has a message?
PS: i am doing this without his permission, but i hope you will not deface his flickr account. thanks for your consideration.

Having a cutoff doesn't quite imply it was a "real issue". It could just mean there might have been a few stray cases, and even avoiding those stray cases is, of course, a perfectly worthy thing to do. And I repeat: Do you actually know a significant number of students who barely passed 12th and made it into IITs? I find it hard to believe a 'yes' for an answer to the above question.

bulbul, you are right. I have not conducted a statistically significant survey, nor am I basing my statement based on the small sample of Kota folks I know (but there are anecdotes of this phenomenon in that sample). I am going off of the response of the IITs (and realistically, I think such a dramatic policy change from 35-40% to 60% is very unlikely to be the result of a few stragglers), observations by people whom I know, a couple of articles that I have seen on this, and news reports of CBSE raids on some of these schools because there were reports of these being place-fillers with most enrolled students never showing up (and in fact, many CBSE schools in the area around Kota are apparently reluctant to enroll Kota students who choose Rajasthan board).

I have been typing up my comments quickly, so maybe you found my tone brusque, dismissive or superior; I assure you it was unintentional.

more here.

So, JEE whaa? (Jeeva?), what did you conclude? Do we know each other?

So, JEE whaa? (Jeeva?), what did you conclude? Do we know each other?

You are not on Page 20 in my view of the group :) I was going to mail you.

Amardeep:

I personally like the photo because it defies the clichés regarding what India looks like

Amardeep, a little bit of irony there. :)

There is a cliché (as parodied by Scott Adams on Dilbert in the character of Asok) that IITians are ridiculously brilliant, and since IITians tend to be overrepresented among Indian Americans (relative to the fraction of IIT alumni among the Indian population), this weird stereotype rubs off to some extent on other Indian Americans. A picture (good as it may be) of an IIT seems hardly the right candidate to break the stereotype. [I do understand the spirit in which the post was made].

That said, I will concede that desis who spent their childhood in the US may have had to put up with too many seriously-asked questions about exotification, leading to an opposition to a different kind of cliché than that of IIT alumni who are jestingly asked whether they can heat up their tea by placing it on their forehead.

The telekinetic ability to heat up tea would of course be an excellent addition to the JEE, as would the ability to detonate skulls. I'm sure that both will help select more well-rounded candidates.

I'm sure that both will help select more well-rounded candidates.

Ah, that would be the day :) There's more than the unpalatable mess food that stands between IIT folks and well-roundedness.

I'm sure that both will help select more well-rounded candidates.

I have never understood the fascination with the 'well-rounded' spiel. Well rounded skills can be obtained in any decent Arts colleges - please leave the IITs out of it.

Were you being sarcastic ?

Was that a rhetorical question?

"Well-rounded" in this context is someone who has a reasonable balance between acads and social life, neglecting neither. Correlated with what used to be called "cat" and later "stud", connoting someone who didn't need to mug all the time. As opposed to "despo". The complaint of too many faculty these days is that the residential JEE coaching centers are pushing too many despos through the system, who promptly break down once they're in.

71 · melbourne desi said

I have never understood the fascination with the 'well-rounded' spiel. Well rounded skills can be obtained in any decent Arts colleges - please leave the IITs out of it.

Oh, I don't know Melbourne Desi. Plenty of IITians, I am told, eagerly seek to expand their appreciation of fine literature by being voracious readers of a fine publication known as The Human Digest. And Granta, of course. Apparently, avant-garde European films are also very popular among these gentlemen.* If they want to pursue the humanities and fine arts in their leisure (after doing more 'solid' coursework, of course), why not let their hands and minds be busy in these very edifying activities? It will all be useful to those wealthy and high-flying executive IITans when they will be on the broads, uh boards, of various philanthropies and art foundations.

*My knowledge is sadly applicable to IIT men only.

26 · JEE whaa? said

c) In past, if someone had a JEE 100 rank (or JEE 250), and Roorkee "All India" 5 rank, he or she might pick Roorkee.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of the expansion of the IIT name to
as yet untested schools. I think what is needed is to first make sure
these schools raise their standards to the quality of the top 3 or 4
IITs (something which I don't think even Kharagpur and Guwahati meet
today).

As a recent (2001) Kharagpur alumnus, I must protest this characterization of my alma mater. Like someone else said, this seems to display a UP (or more broadly, a metro-) centric view. Guwahati, as a recently established university, plus the on-and-off violence in Assam, might be considered to have slightly inferior standards compared to the other 5, but Kharagpur is the oldest and biggest IIT by far, and the standards (of professors, facilities and students) and as high as in the other IITs, I can assure you. It happens to be located in a semi-rural area, which is the only reason why a handful among the top 200 JEE rankers select it, and this in turn leads to a (somewhat) negative perception of IIT-Kgp. By the way, if you look at the India Today rankings over the past 10 years (I know many consider these rankings a joke, but they are at least as credible as perceptions and rumors), IIT-Kharagpur has often been ranked at #1 amongst engineering colleges in India.
Sorry for the rant! Anyway, moving beyond this, I do agree with your point about dilution of the IIT name. I am more concerned at the prospect of converting NITs (top state colleges) to IITs, rather than Roorkee, which had an established brand name (and an entrance examination that was equally, if not more, difficult than JEE) for decades.

If I may, why doesn't somebody guest-blog a series on the IITs, or the state of post-secondary education in India? A lot of mutineers seem to be passionate about this topic (and the regulars at the bunker already have a lot on their plate).It could lead to a lot of interesting topics: BPO, brain drain, reverse brain drain, creativity or lack thereof in the Indian education system, the solid high-school curriculum in the sciences in some regions, remittances, the need for more dispersed technical education in India, the pro bono technical contributions IIT alumni and professors have made, the techie diaspora, the emergence of quasi-metro cities in the desh, the recent mathematical contributions of agrawal et al.....

Portmanteau for Guest Blogger! Seriously, you have what it takes.

the recent mathematical contributions of agrawal et al.....

Are you referring to the AKS primality test?

On this topic, here's something for the linguists here: a Master's thesis on IITM student slang, by Evelyn Richter.

Thanks for the pictures Kush - brought back memories of the good old days. And to all those who have turned a post on photography into a rant on IITS - take the chill pill. I turned out just fine and so did several of my classmates. I do however wish there was more emphasis on humanities and appreciation of the arts. I think that was what makes a civilzation truly great.

Plenty of IITians, I am told, eagerly seek to expand their appreciation of fine literature by being voracious readers of a fine publication known as The Human Digest.

Coming back to desi architecture, IIMA and IIMB have pretty interesting layouts. Has anyone seen the Veterinary Hospital and the SPCA building in Vepery, Madras.

This is more like it

My favourite one is the second photo ( photo of Hanuman ) on this BBC link..This is the contrast that Amardeep was probably referring too. Btw of the same genre is an infamous Tibetian photo ( not related to India though ) which I heard won a some awards

All this IIT talk is making me sad all over again because I couldnt make into it :(

I was so obsessed with it that for the whole first year of my undergrad days, I felt myself like an outsider among my peers. Although, now I realize that I really belonged where I was :)

BITS Pilani has a truly beautiful campus. The Saraswati Temple is amazing. And it's in the desert, so even more impressive keeping it green.

I think there's an IIT planned for Hyderabad now.

And, while not an Engineering school, The Indian School is Business (ISB) in Hyderabad is stunning! Seriously.

Could I put in a word for the many beautiful (and old) campuses of India's boarding schools?

Slightly OT, but speaking of opportunities and higher education in India, the NY Times had an inspirational story about a small village boy making it all the way to the World Bank largely by dint of his own determination and effort, and using his bully pulpit to change conventional thinking about international migration. Most importantly for his village, he has also given back to its primary education system, although with mixed results.

Bangalore Street Photographs.
Which Main? What Cross?

http://mainsandcrosses.blogspot.com

Eye for India
http://eyeforindia.nlogspot.com

Which main? What Cross?
Eye for India

Kushji: Nice pictures. Some day when I have time, I plan to upload lots of picture of Ahmedabad, that I have taken over last forty years. [including the one from our recent trip - in front of the famous "Lucky" restaurant that Anna talked about back in December]. Indeed India (for that matter even USA) is not all about Tajmahal and Washington Monument, but also about Chandni Chawk, Holy Cows, and South side of Chicago and Harlem ghettos.

However, with respect to learnability or teachability, IITians are sharper than many other DBDs.

I think the problem with some IITians not being too successful in the real world is that they think they are sharper than all desis and others and are not open to the fact that some really sharp people did not go to an IIT. Thus they end up either rubbing people the wrong way, not taking into consideration diverse points of view or being plain lazy. Of course, there are plenty (a majority) of IITians who do not have such issues and are quite successful thus.

I've been on the drive from Delhi to Haridwar (Roorkee falls on that route), and much as the IIT campus is beautiful, the area around it and in fact the whole drive once you get out of Delhi is one of unending bleakness and poverty. And this is a relatively prosperous area, when compared to eastern UP or Bihar! The only nice thing is the open fields and farmland, which stretch out green and fertile for miles and miles. But the horrible roads, the crumbling towns and villages, and the undernourished people, are all indications that India Shining is a joke. Delhi and Mumbai are very different from the vast majority of the rest of India.

Amitabh,

Although I appreciate your sentiment I don't think it is right to undermine the work in India by making such proclamations. The roads are bad, there is poverty but there is also the India that Kush speaks of and last I checked Delhi and Bombay are parts of India as well, I thought the point of Amardeep's post was that lesser known aspects of India don't get half as much coverage.
That being said, work is being done and it takes time in country with a billion people and it is naieve to think that everything can become rosy in five years.

Errr sorry to but into the IIT conversation but I have a couple of India pictures to share as well :-)

Mumbai 1 and Mumbai 2 I wish my pictures of Shiro in Mumbai came out clearer. It was so dark in there and I didn't want to use flash but my god it could put Buddakan and Buddha Bar in NYC to shame! Nevermind the decor but the Cosmos were $14 USD!!

JOAT,

I think your pictures require authorization to view, I have been to Shiro and I love the place, there are other places that have recently opened in Bombay which are as good if not better, but you are right about Shiro it is an excellent spot.