The world’s largest democracy won’t allow peaceful protests because it may embarrass its authoritarian neighbor? That’s an interesting interpretation of democracy.

well, a literal interpretation of democracy is basically just the will of the majority (however defined) to guide the actions of the government. it doesn't vouchsafe individual liberty. e.g., look at what happened to socrates when he got unpopular. this was one of the ancient arguments for the superiority of republics over democracies (see polybius), because they had some built in safeguards against majority-rule. so the key is that india is a republic which constitutional guarantees, no matter what might be expedience or preferred by the majority.

tibet is just the boundary condition. the chinese government and populace is going to be, and has, thrown its weight around a lot over the past few years because of the economic power and interests of many people. rupert murdoch's abasement to china is just an extreme case, i've heard/read that many business people and politicians are engaging in actions under the radar to keep the chinese happy because of possibilities for investment within their economy. what are the rights of a few million tibetans next to the soon-to-be world's largest market?

i hate to say it, but the biggest threat to tibetan aspirations and the succor it might receive from outside parties is economic growth in china. and it isn't just the chinese government, most of the graduate students of chinese nationality i've met in the US don't have much sympathy or interest in tibetan human rights and think they're gov. is being restrained in light of the fact that this ethnic minority is trying to hive off a part of historic china (yes, i'm typing that with irony).

Tibet : China::Kashmir : India

I don't love the fact that yeh Bharat desh jo hai mera "values" it's relationship with China more than it stands up for the Tibetan cause at the moment.

And I am disappointed that India is cracking down on Tibetan protestors. Fact is, India's a democracy, China patently isn't, and well, the whole thing gives India no shobha.

But here's the thing....particularly in reference to Sumit Ganguly's comment:

"If India wishes to be considered a great power, it needs to display a greater degree of independence and not kowtow to Beijing."

Show me someone who stood up to a great power and told it off when it was NEXT DOOR. Not half a world away. Not a continent away. But right next door, with a bigger military that it has already seen fit to butcher its own people with when they got restive, and weaponry that could take out Kolkata and apni Nai Dilli by the morning if it wished.

Heck, the US could bomb China into smithereens if it really wanted and have time left over enough to barricade the doors, what with being on the other side of the planet. And it hasn't stood up to the place in 20 years, long before China became the economic powerhouse it is now.

And not to put too fine a point on it but Tibet would be a non-starter if India were to shut down Dharamsala tomorrow.

What precisely do people want India to do?

Tibet : China::Kashmir : India

that's different! if kashmir was allowed to become independent then india would shatter into 1,000 pieces and turn into a hindu theocracy! ;-)

What precisely do people want India to do?

it would perhaps behoove a non-trivial power not to emulate a relationship to china reminiscent of that of finland to the soviet union? i don't think the key is that china is more militarily power than india, that was true in the 1960s when india was beaten pretty easily by the chinese. the key is that china is a massive market for indian companies now.

Show me someone who stood up to a great power and told it off when it was NEXT DOOR.

you recall the soviet-chinese split in the late 1950s and the ensuing border skirmishes?

> What precisely do people want India to do?

To atleast condemn the actions and allow democratic non-violent protests to occur, even if they are within India.
As Indians, if we see solidarity in those protests, we should stand with them.

Although I feel for the tibetan people, i dont understand if they want a free country or just want their culture to not perish.
(I've heard they switched to the latter objective since the former isnt happening anytime soon).
And so, if it is the latter, then whats so special about those mountains that they cannot sustain their culture elsewhere?
Dharamshala is uniquely tibetan and there's even a tibetan township outside Bangalore I believe.
If "mother" India has accepted tibetan refugees in the past, she can continue to do so in the future.
Given our current population, its hardly a drop more.

> Tibet : China::Kashmir : India

umm, not really. A part of Kashmir has already been taken by Pakistan, and the other part by China. Kashmir was not a free country to begin with.
There were no chinese living in tibet to begin with, but there are kashmiri brahmins who've lived in Kashmir for long.

> What precisely do people want India to do?

To atleast condemn the actions and allow democratic non-violent protests to occur, even if they are within India.

No argument there!

Although I feel for the tibetan people, i dont understand if they want a free country or just want their culture to not perish.

the dalai lama has disavowed any wish for independence. on a historical note, tibet was never part of china proper. during the manchu/ching dynasty it was ruled as a personal domain of the ruling house, not an integrated part of the chinese state. tibet was part of an expansion of manchu domains during the 18th century which resulted in the basic outlines of what we see as the people's republic of china today (it lost a few outlying areas to the russian empire in the 19th century). the tibetan independence of the early 20th century was a function of the collapse of the manchu dynasty. the conquest by the people's republic was actually simply a reassertion of the limits of the manchu empire domains which were let go during the warlord period. this doesn't really matter at this point; borders are borders (unless you are serbia ;-). but unlike xinjiang, tibet proper was never ruled by a native chinese dynasty during the 2,000 year imperial period.

umm, not really. A part of Kashmir has already been taken by Pakistan, and the other part by China. Kashmir was not a free country to begin with. There were no chinese living in tibet to begin with, but there are kashmiri brahmins who've lived in Kashmir for long.

so many assumptions to query, so little time....

Tibet : China::Kashmir : India

melbourne desi, i read your comments, i like your take, often candid and interesting even if off sometimes.

But in this comment, you have show "fathomless bottom of cluelessness"

Let's say India is the big villian in Kashmir.......but Tibet and Kashmir is 180 degrees opposite.

Jammu and Kashmir has a special status in the Indian Union, there is a complete separate clause (Article 370 or something) in the Indian Constitution for J & K, that makes huge exceptions for the state as a whole. Jammu has always been Hindu dominated but not the Kashmir part. No non-Kashmiri can own land in Kashmir , as per constitution. No non-Kashmiri can dissolve their culture, Indian Government bends backwards to maintain "the pristine nature of Kashmiri culture". In part, this has to Nehru-Gandhi family being Kashmiri Brahmins, Sheikh Abdullah's influence, and some very important Indian Civil Servants (policy makers) were Kashmiris.

Now, China has utterly dissolved (or in the processes of) Tibetan culture, with superhighways, malls, train, Chinese army, and yes, Chinese whorehouses.

China has taken upon erasing the footprint of Tibetaness on the face of the earth, whereas, whatever, you think of India's conduct in Kashmir, India has went out of the way to maintain Kashmiri culture. At the fundamental level, they are opposite.

To the Indian jingoists out there, abhi included... in any war between China and India, China would crush India completely. China's economy is stronger and bigger than India's and so is its military. A war with China would mean kissing goodbye to the North East and possible simultaneous attacks from Pakistan. Ganguly may think India is a "great power" but it is not. It is still a third world country mired in poverty and dealing with its own separatist problems that China could very easily support if it wanted to.

I think the only way to solve this problem is for Richard Gere to sweep Hu Jintao off his feet and kiss him smack on the lips.

10 · Prem said

To the Indian jingoists out there, abhi included... in any war between China and India, China would crush India completely. China's economy is stronger and bigger than India's and so is its military. A war with China would mean kissing goodbye to the North East and possible simultaneous attacks from Pakistan. Ganguly may think India is a "great power" but it is not. It is still a third world country mired in poverty and dealing with its own separatist problems that China could very easily support if it wanted to.

You accuse of Abhi of being a jingoist, but your post is line for line an argument I've heard from Chinese jingoists.

India has its very own nuclear redlines and the no-first use policy would be burned on public television as a statement in the very least and a omnipresent threat to the Chinese in the case of war. In the late 80s, when China was particularly aggressive in Arunachal Pradesh, Indian forces stood their ground on the east. Yes China's army is bigger, but a huge chunk is on the Eastern border, and if China wanted to attack, it would need at the most conservative estimate , twice (3x is the military norm) the number of troops India had to breach defensive positions. India lost badly in '62 because of misguided trust, ill equipped troops and a pseudomilitarized border. None of this applies today.

Its embarrassing to see India do these things to appease China and it reeks of what some countries did to appease expansionist Germany a la the 1930s, but I don't think anyone will be walking over the eastern border, as much as the Left allies of the UPA government may want it to happen.

And remember China has its own separatist problems that India too could aggravate though it chooses not to.

12 · anthroguy said

Yes China's army is bigger, but a huge chunk is on the Eastern border

I meant that a huge chunk of the Chinese army is on their Eastern shores facing Taiwan.

I think the only way to solve this problem is for Richard Gere to sweep Hu Jintao off his feet and kiss him smack on the lips.

asian chix like white guys, right?

China has taken upon erasing the footprint of Tibetaness on the face of the earth....

just a note: the population of the autonomous region is still about 90% tibetan. in contrast, the population of xinjiang is at least 40% han (the uyghur nationalists have accused the chinese gov. of doing undercounts to mask the extent of demographic change). i think the major difference here is physiological: much of tibet is above 10,000 feet, and most non-high altitude adapted people will never be totally comfortable. lhasa is at 12,000 feet. the han would come to the autonomous region are temporary profiteers or civil servants, no one wants to settle in a place where the oxygen levels are too low for them ever to be at ease (the tibetans have some very interesting physiological adaptations to high altitude).

on the other hand, more than half of tibetans live outside of the autonomous region, mostly in qinghai, where they are a large minority, and sichuan, where they are a smaller minority. qinghai has long been a major region of tibetan culture, but it isn't as high as the tibetan plateau and i suspect that the han majority will totally swamp out the natives, as they did in taiwan in the 17th century or manchuria in the 20th.

But in this comment, you have show "fathomless bottom of cluelessness"

that's different! if kashmir was allowed to become independent then india would shatter into 1,000 pieces and turn into a hindu theocracy! ;-)

Let me try again
Tibet:China::Palestine:Roman Empire

slinks away with tail between his legs ;)

EVERYONE: "prem" is a troll. do not respond.

analogy: tibet:china::chittagong hill tracts:bangladesh. the chittagong hill tracts were traditionally more culturally burmese, it was only the fact that chittogang's watershed reaches up into them which demanded they administratively become part of east bengal and pakistan. it was an accident of history, but now no one would entertain that the hill tracts should be extracted from bangladesh (the bengalis have colonized the highlands to a large extent now).

"India lost badly in '62 because of misguided trust, ill equipped troops and a pseudomilitarized border. None of this applies today."

How confident you are. Yes, yes, India is the biggest, strongest most powerful country in the world! :) Using the terms "lost badly" to describe what happened in 62 is dressing it up a little isn't it? It was a total and utter defeat. If China wanted to she could quite easily take over Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim and hand over Kashmir to Pakistan on a silver platter. The Indian government is cognizant of the fact that if it gets into the bad books of China, China could make life very difficult for North India.

PS India wants desperately to get into the Security Council. Guess who holds a veto on that?

My understanding of Tibetan issues does not extend beyond a cursory reading of the newspaper. And I dont know a single tibetan. Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut. Kush - equally admire your comments.

I am sorry too, melbourne desi, i was too harsh.

Tibetan problem is very complex, on a level, China will completely erase their way of life. In half a century, China will make sure Tibetan culture in Tibet will become underground - just for their own survival, or brain washing how Tibetan culture is from stone ages, or marrying Tibetan men with mainland Chinese women. Please do check out the movie, Cry of the Snow Lion, it make you cry just seeing that with all the Chinese modernism, and whorehouses in Tibet, there is an agenda behind.

Tibetans from Tibet sometimes let their children take an extremely dangerous journey to Nepal and India on foot, via the Plateau, and Himalayas, so that they can grown up as Tibetans in Dharamsala. Please see the movie, I am talking about. Even Dalai Lama openly discourages these life threatening treks.

I can agree that Indian Government, and Indian Army has been ham handed in Kashmir, and has back peddled on referndrum, but on some level Article 370 is a sweet heart deal, and they do not meddle with demographics, and Kashmiri culture.

At this point, I could care less what happens to Kashmir. It could become independent tomorrow and it wouldnt bother me. But there is a difference between Kashmir and Tibet. Regardless of the fact that INdia's military may or may not have been heavy handed in its atrocities or were merely reacting to terrorists , one thing is clear , they did not set out to erase Kashmiri culture the way China is doing in Tibet.

Another reason why I think India should stand up to China on this issue is that there is nothing to lose. It's not like China has rewarded India in the past for towing the line. They continue to insult India with the Arunachal Pradesh statements. It is obvious China doesnt give a shit what India thinks as long as India says what China wants india to say. Indian politicians are just spineless.

china does 0.01% to india of what india does to nepal, china does nepal *50 to what it does to india now imagine being an independent nepal

If we're making comparisons, closer to home is the simplest and of course best.

American Indians : US::Tibet : China

American Indians : US::Tibet : China

no. they died, or we killed them. mostly the former due to massive epidemics which preceded european expansion into "virgin" territory (e.g., the pacific northwest tribes in the willamette valley died decades before white settlement, explaining why deciduous forests had regrown). can we note that 90% of the people in the tibetan autonomous zone are still ethnic tibetans? qinghai province is a better analogy, since tibetans might have been a majority there are one time, though it has always been more diverse than the highlands. this is a cultural genocide, not a demographic one (at least since the 1950s, though to be honest most credible sources seem to imply that the tibetan dissent overestimates the number killed by the chinese).

the analogy with hawaii:US::tibet:china is better. look up the history of hawaii in the 1890s and you'll see why....

These analogy games: Reality :: SAT: JEE?

though it has always been more diverse than the highlands.

highlands relatively. qinghai is over 5,000 ft above seal level from what i recall.

Its embarrassing to see India do these things to appease China and it reeks of what some countries did to appease expansionist Germany a la the 1930s

First Iraq, then Iran, now China is the new Nazi Germany?

I am sorry too, melbourne desi, i was too harsh.

I think.. India must stop appeasing China... like how the european countries appeased Nazi Germany.
China's annexation of tibet is similiar to Hitlers annexation of czechoslovakia...
India must invade China and liberate Tibet now ! to prevent WW III !

To the Indian jingoists out there, abhi included...

I plan on boycotting the olympics (i.e. TV, other media including conversations around the water fountain). These kinds of individual actions can sometimes reach critical mass. If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around, does it make a sound?

One of the criticisms leveled against American politicians is that they focus so much on domestic opinion that they fail to take into account how their actions will have an impact beyond American borders. For India, it is a different problem - their politicians are so concerned about global public opinion, that they fail to take steps that would advance India, or stake a position that would run counter to global opinion. India's behavior towards Tibet is only a recent example. In late 2007, you had India look the other way as monks were being shot in Myanmar - I still have not seen how that benefited India. It raises no objection to how Indian laborers are treated in the Persian Gulf.

The increased profile India enjoys now is not due to its government, but despite it. It's Indian companies, Indian workers, Indian arts & entertainment that have made the Indian brand stronger.

As far as the hypothetical India vs. China matter - much has changed since 1962. As pointed out, India pushed back a number of aggressive Chinese border advances in the 1980's. Plus, where the two border each other is not ideal for a long-drawn out conflict - supply lines are too long for either nations. Finally, China would not undertake military action against India simply because India issued a number of harsh diplomatic communiques. Wars are launched to achieve firm objectives, not to make a point.

But China need not worry. India's government is so spineless, it consistently believes that "If we do what they want, they will be nice to us next time." Yeah, that's why when an Indian Airlines plane was hijacked in 1999, there was no attack on Parliament in 2001. It's why by balking on the nuclear deal with America, Beijing will surely curb its assistance to Pakistan.

abhi, prem=prema=jing (it is a troll, as razib observes. and it is the mirror image--at least tries to project one--of many indian jingoists we know and love)

One more thing - it's one thing to prevent Tibetans crossing over into Tibet. It's another, and more shameful, thing to arrest Tibetans living in India who are simply protesting. Pathetic.

Prem,

Look up the Sumdorong Chu incident.

I agree with almost everyone here that Indian Government should let Tibetans protest peacefully in India. Indian Government is most of the time "shit scared" of almost everything.

They, although maintain refugee status, belong to India now. They have been there for 60 years, contribute to the Indian culture, and also little known fact - they are the finest commandos in the Indo-Tibetan Border Force, and Indian Army (Special Frontier Force and Ladakh Scouts). It is time Indian Government showed some sensitivity to them.

India has not allowed large-scale public protests for fear of embarrassing Beijing

this last line by bbc is disingenuous; protests have been going on in india for the past few days without being broken up (just use google news; however nepal has been overzealous in breaking up protests); they have conflated two separate incidents. india prevented protests when jinbao visited new delhi (this can also be possibly condemned, that that is not the point here); the reporter merely used that incident to make a more general statement. i personally have mixed opinions about the role of tibet in india-china relations, but it is important to get the facts right first.

I think sigh! very small scale protests in India are going on.

But in last week or so, some of the young Tibetan leaders have been put on "house arrest" (they cannot leave their homes) in Dharamsala. I think it fringes on their right to express themselves, and they should not be put on house arrest.

China has supported many separatist movements within India, and works with almost all its neighbors to pressurise India through a variety of means. Its financing of Pakistan's nuclear and missile program, and now financing Bangladesh's civilian nuclear program and its military, military and economic intervention in Burma, and now negotiations with nthe Maldives to set up a naval base there, are some of its many active projects aimed at encircling India and gradually extinguishing India's influence in its region. Its proxy takeover of Nepal through the neo-PolPotist/Maoist butchers - Prachanda/Bhattarai and Co. is its most notable success in the last decade. Within India China has cultivated two fifth column entities that otherwise seem to be parts of civil society and has them work for its interests 24/7. The first entity is a political party the Communist Party of India-Marxist and its Stalinist commissars, the second is a media vehicle that is very popular among progressives and intellectuals the world over - the newspaper The Hindu. So it is not as if China hasn't been active in eroding India's identity and its idea of its own interests. China's inside operation in India is the most successful subversive project that we have seen in modern times. In every country there are political groups or media entities that though seemingly independent peddle the line of some internal interest or power group. China is the only power to have managed to create two such entities in a foreign land that unabashedly pursue its interests. Right from the time N.Ram filed lies for reports on the Tiananmen massacre from Beijing and then went on to write PR pieces on Tibet for the commissars of Beijing or when an EMS, Sundarayya, or Yechury refuse to accord the dignity due to a war hero like Maj.Shaitan Singh, the CPI-M and The Hindu have been nothing but tools in the hands of the commissars of Beijing.

If you have been reading The Hindu during the last week you will find that it has been simply printing press releases from China's news agency Hsinhua. Can it get worse? With N.Ram and the CPI-M around, you bet it can!

But in last week or so, some of the young Tibetan leaders have been put on "house arrest" (they cannot leave their homes) in Dharamsala. I think it fringes on their right to express themselves, and they should not be put on house arrest.

absolutely agree, kush; but the indian government's ostensible reasons for this is to prevent them from crossing the border, not going to delhi and leading a march. but again, i agree that it nonetheless infringes on their personal liberty (which the government pretends to uphold)

Here is an excellent LA Times article.........some excerpts from the article:

One parliament member, Youdon Aukatsang, urged India, as the world's most populous democracy, to take a stronger stand.

"They should strongly condemn what's happening inside Tibet. They haven't done that. This is a gross human rights violation," she said. "I don't expect them to take any covert action or anything like that, but at least [make] forceful statements. It's their moral duty."

At least 100,000 Tibetan refugees live in India, more than anywhere else in the world, with thousands more arriving every year. Beyond sheer numbers, the Indian government also is struggling with the fact that many Tibetans here, especially youths, have grown increasingly militant in favor of independence for their homeland. The Dalai Lama, however, endorses greater autonomy for Tibet under Chinese suzerainty.

The Indian govt. suppresses all kinds of protest, and would perhaps come off as hypocritical if they did let the Tibetans go on. I wonder how the Chinese would have reacted, if India allowed the protests to continue.

my_dog_jagat: I am with you. No Olympics TV for me. And anytime someone brings up the Olympics, I will mention Tibet. I will probably be avoided after the first couple of days, but that's ok. :-)

I agree with Kush Tandon (comment #19) regarding "Cry of the Snow Lion" - it is a very powerful movie....worth watching. For quite some time afterwards, I did not want to buy any "Made in China" stuff, but living here in the US, it is almost impossible! I looked around my house, and it seemed to me as if 90% of the items were all from China. Heck, even some packets of frozen vegetables had a "Produced in China" stamp on them! :(
It does seem like the Chinese government wants to wipe out any trace of Tibetan culture/beliefs as it is so different from their own.
As for the Indian government - I don't understand why it cannot allow Tibetan (peaceful) protests?!

38 Jyotsna

Thanks for pointing to the disgusting hypocrisy of the Hindu newspaper on the tibet issue. In the last five years, they havent printed a single article on the chinese destruction of tibetan culture or anything like that at all. Most of their coverage on China sounds like it is translated from Chinese govt reports.

At the same time these folks want to pretend that they are progressives and every third editorial is a condemnation of the western powers (often deserved, but where is the balance in all of this?).

Jyotsana's comment #38 says it all. With Manmohan Singh's teetering government counting on critical support by the Communist parties to live from day-to-day, how can we expect it to take a stronger stand on this issue?

You get what you vote for.

M. Nam

The Indian govt. suppresses all kinds of protest, and would perhaps come off as hypocritical if they did let the Tibetans go on. I wonder how the Chinese would have reacted, if India allowed the protests to continue.

all governments suppress "all kinds of protests" (here in the u.s. you have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get permission for a protest, and even then you might be denied or "restricted" to certain areas; there is no such thing in India, and thus when protests disrupt traffic for example--every other day in calcutta-- police sometimes reluctantly break it up) thus no government should have the right to speak against any other government (mind you i might even be serious here; there is plenty of hypocrisy going around; so the point is not what a government should do--a government/state is not a "moral" entity, its citizens are-- but what its citizens, as ethical creatures should make it do). anyways Haldane's quote on this matter is interesting:

“Perhaps one is freer to be a scoundrel in India than elsewhere. So one was in the USA in the days of people like Jay Gould [i.e., the nineteen twenties], when (in my opinion) there was more internal freedom in the USA than there is today. The ‘disgusting subservience’ of the others has its limits. The people of Calcutta riot, upset trams, and refuse to obey police regulations, in a manner which would have delighted Jefferson. I don’t think their activities are very efficient, but that is not the question at issue.”

by the way guha is dead wrong above; jay gould lived during and after the civil war and died in the 1890s

11 · Rahul said

I think the only way to solve this problem is for Richard Gere to sweep Hu Jintao off his feet and kiss him smack on the lips.

rahul wonderful..i like that idea ...:)

I wonder if the Chinese are still upset about the Battle of Talas River back in 751 AD. The Tibetans allied with the Arabs and kicked the Chinese's backside then. This is the decisive battle which introduced Islam to Central Asia (i.e. Uzbekistan, Uighurstan, etc.), and it also introduced paper to the West!

I noticed that the Chinese are trying to get involved with outsourcing of software projects from the USA to China. There are a lot of companies in China doing Java and .NET projects for American companies with a 40% cost savings when compared to India. Given China's infrastructure, lower costs, and much lower turnover rates, what do you think would be the future viability of the Chinese IT outsourcing companies?

"Given China's infrastructure, lower costs, and much lower turnover rates, what do you think would be the future viability of the Chinese IT outsourcing companies?"

Such companies are geared towards serving clients in Japan and Korea, mostly. There is still a language barrier that hinders their ability to get U.S. clients. But that has nothing to do with Tibet.

For all the faults of the Chinese system of govt. and democracy one topic that fascinates me ( someday I need to study/read abt it more ) that they have managed to western economics and model of wealth generation upside down which even the mighty soviets couldn't manage. I understand that western folks call it mostly cheating and stealing but did the european colonialist steal less in the past that the chinese have to apologetic about ?

52 · Bridget Jones said

For all the faults of the Chinese system of govt. and democracy one topic that fascinates me ( someday I need to study/read abt it more )is that they have managed to western economics and model of wealth generation upside down which even the mighty soviets couldn't manage. I understand that western folks call it mostly cheating and stealing but did the european colonialist steal less in the past that the chinese have to apologetic about ?

I meant turn the western.....model upside down

10 · Prem said

dealing with its own separatist problems that China could very easily support if it wanted to.

Dude what made you think they dont??!!

23 · razib said

American Indians : US::Tibet : China

no. they died, or we killed them. mostly the former due to massive epidemics which preceded european expansion into "virgin" territory (e.g., the pacific northwest tribes in the willamette valley died decades before white settlement, explaining why deciduous forests had regrown). can we note that 90% of the people in the tibetan autonomous zone are still ethnic tibetans? qinghai province is a better analogy, since tibetans might have been a majority there are one time, though it has always been more diverse than the highlands. this is a cultural genocide, not a demographic one (at least since the 1950s, though to be honest most credible sources seem to imply that the tibetan dissent overestimates the number killed by the chinese).

The distinction you are making is very interesting because it predisposes the value of these people lives is not in the manner of which they live their lives which is exactly what Europeans thought about American Indians.

Still, is there really a difference for those people who are losing their world?

Sumit Ganguly, writing for Newsweek, sounds pissed about India’s blatant appeasement:

India does itself a disservice by not standing up to China over its treatment of Tibet. If India wishes to be considered a great power, it needs to display a greater degree of independence and not kowtow to Beijing. With rapid economic growth, a substantial military establishment and robust political institutions, India should stop behaving in a subservient fashion and forthrightly stand up and defend certain inalienable rights of the Tibetan minority in its midst—rights that should obtain in any humane and democratic state

Sumit Ganguly is seriously delusional (typical of his kind). India is not a great power by any measure. It certainly is no match for China. India behaves in a "subservient fashion" towards China because it was taught a humiliating lesson by the chinese PLA the last time its clueless leaders (Nehru et al) tried to show some spine.

India needs to first "stand up and defend certain inalienable rights" of the majority of its own citizens who live in conditions that any tibetan or chinese would find deplorable and dehumanizing, before it lectures other nations on human rights.

As for the equivalency between India's stranglehold over Kashmir to China's over Tibet, a better comparison is India's rule over the tibeto-burmese northeastern states. Its sheer hypocrisy to condemn China over Tibet but give India a pass over its own occupation of the northeastern states.

44 · Al beruni said

...the disgusting hypocrisy of the Hindu newspaper....

Who is this "we" Razib? Since when did you become a white european? Its amusing to see a colored immigrant like you identify with the whites who did those things to the natives americans :)

Perhaps it was "you" also who enslaved the indian subcontinent and kept south asians segregated in America during the Jim Crow era?

Its worth noting here that its the western liberals and leftists who are agitating for Tibetan rights and confronting China over this issue.

Bush on the other hand insists that he will go to China for the Olympics.

I'm not Prem. Carry on.

58 · Vyasa said

no. they died, or we killed them.
Who is this "we" Razib? Since when did you become a white european? Its amusing to see a colored immigrant like you identify with the whites who did those things to the natives americans :)

This is a good topic of discussion. What is the relationship of the Indian immigrant who swears fealty to the nation founded by the original settlers? Can he reject the sins of the original settlers yet share in the fruits of their toil?

56 · Vyasa
Sumit Ganguly is seriously delusional (typical of his kind). India is not a great power by any measure. It certainly is no match for China. India behaves in a "subservient fashion" towards China because it was taught a humiliating lesson by the chinese PLA the last time its clueless leaders (Nehru et al) tried to show some spine.

India needs to first "stand up and defend certain inalienable rights" of the majority of its own citizens who live in conditions that any tibetan or chinese would find deplorable and dehumanizing, before it lectures other nations on human rights.

As for the equivalency between India's stranglehold over Kashmir to China's over Tibet, a better comparison is India's rule over the tibeto-burmese northeastern states. Its sheer hypocrisy to condemn China over Tibet but give India a pass over its own occupation of the northeastern states.

India is in the process of becoming a great power. All things considered it's development track as a nation is following a normal pattern after independence. The next 20 years of it's progress will focus on infrastructure particularly in areas of governmental efficiency and transportation. As for it's geo-political standing in the world, slowly it's gaining a weight of importance.

India and China probably will have major conflicts in 2040-60.

I doubt this is in anyway spineless behavior by GoI but rather an incredibly clever ploy to rack up medals in the Olympics, now that our lone hope (hockey) is sadly out of the picture. Richard Gere, that beacon of political strategery and insight, is sabre rattling a way for this to materialize. I say that we Indian patriots support this genius and fan the flames of this boycott cry.

As an Anglo-Indian, born, bred and educated through the system of the RAJ..I understand the imperialistic attitude of China, lets follow Britians lead and abuse every one and everything as nobody will say or do anything to stop us, if by chance they do it will only be of Lip service..nothing that cannot be handled.

When will we learn, look at what the Nazi's did..nobody said or did anything till it was too late. Countries invaded, cultures destroyed, genocide practised, All it takes is for one to stand up and be recognized..at this point in time it's Tibets turn..she will be decimated and her people scattered..but she will prevail. we should all hold our heads down in disgust at what we have let China get away with. Yes all countries have their skeletons in the closets, but none so blatant as China.

I am 10 years old and wonder what the world will be like..When China does become a superpower..

The Indian Government doesn't care about Tibet.

india is a chickensh*t country. read jug suraiya's article from the link below:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/From_Taslima_to_Tibet_India_proves_chicken/articleshow/2885952.cms

Kush@41 :

the Indian government also is struggling with the fact that many Tibetans here, especially youths, have grown increasingly militant in favor of independence for their homeland. The Dalai Lama, however, endorses greater autonomy for Tibet under Chinese suzerainty

How scary it is for India to have so many disgruntled youth , especially the ones who feel they don't belong to India. What happens if the Dalai lama's influence wanes & theres still no deal ?

Beijing must be happy to know it has legions of communist lickspittles in Kolkata and elsewhere to come so vigorously in defense of its policy of killing Tibetans.

Thanks for pointing to the disgusting hypocrisy of the Hindu newspaper on the tibet issue. In the last five years, they havent printed a single article on the chinese destruction of tibetan culture or anything like that at all. Most of their coverage on China sounds like it is translated from Chinese govt reports.

At the same time these folks want to pretend that they are progressives and every third editorial is a condemnation of the western powers (often deserved, but where is the balance in all of this?).

I remember reading articles in Frontline praising the worker's paradise that North Korea is. These guys are beyond ridiculous.
But I am curious if there's any evidence out there that the communist parties are arm-twisting Congress on this issue. I won't be surprised if the Congress didn't need any arm-twisting.