I am a ardent supporter of tibetan people's rights. I would like bloggers support also to various hindu causes like poverty stricken hindu priests rehabilitation in rural andhra,rescuing brahmin priests from persecution in TN etc

I need an invite to these DC meetups.

I am just wondering, if India were in China's situation would we still rally?

There's a world of a difference between let's say the Kashmiri separatism in India and the Tibetan one in China. In short the Tibetans' grievances are very legitimate while the Kashmiris' are not. I know I should elaborate on this but I won't. It'll misdirect the the thread.

I wasn't eluding to Kashmir at all, I was just wondering, hypothetically, if India had a past of human rights violations and was a country that had undergone major reform and on the rise ready to set foot into the big boy's club by hosting the Olympics, would Indian-Americans use the Olympic torch relay as an opportunity to protest currently looming human rights issues?

I would protest, but I was wondering if ethnic ties would override nationalism.
Vigil sounds nice, wish I lived in SF or DC.

I support Tibetan nationalism, but I don't support these protests. It's not "Beijing's Bloody Torch" they are snatching, it's the Olympics torch, and that should transcend all this. Think of all the black athletes who embarrassed Hitler himself and the Nazis at the Berlin '38 games. Read up on Jesse Owens here.

There are much more relevant however less symbolic ways of protesting against China or for Tibet.

I don't buy everyone's outrage over China. nobody protested the United States hosting the olympics with such vehemence. Their five year occupation of iraq is far more bloody than the fifty year occupation of Tibet, which does have some legitimacy - (an independent Tibet is about as meaningful, probably less so, as an independent Quebec. Far less Tibetans have been killed than Kashmiris by India). The US also holds captive a larger proportion of its citizens than does China, including almost half its blacks.

You're all being duped. It's the same outrage against a colored country's rise to superpower status that has been in force for the past 100 years.

flupping sheep you are.

6 · SSK said

It's not "Beijing's Bloody Torch" they are snatching, it's the Olympics torch, and that should transcend all this... There are much more relevant however less symbolic ways of protesting against China or for Tibet.

Word and thank you.

I am just wondering, if India were in China's situation would we still rally?

Well, more importantly, you are a person of Indian origin (I assume) as opposed to one of Chinese ancestry. India's security concerns are better addressed if Tibet is independent as opposed to China breathing down India's neck across such a large border. Thus even if you discount all other reasons like human rights, the nature of the occupation etc etc, this itself should be a reason to desire Tibetan autonomy which if an India was in China's situation, then China would be in India's and would desire the same.

You're all being duped. It's the same outrage against a colored country's rise to superpower status that has been in force for the past 100 years.

Again, that country of color does not care too much about is country of color.

9 · Ardy said

which if an India was in China's situation, then China would be in India's and would desire the same.

But we would still be Indian so that doesn't really answer the question of whether an Indian-American would protest against his or her country of origin in the U.S. I realize that the Olympic Games are a political vehicle and that's that. If I were a Chinese-American in SF tomorrow I wonder if I would be protesting, but I do know I would feel guilty living in the U.S. and not protesting at such a highly publicized event when fellow protesters in China are being punished for the same.

7 · noblekinsman said

nobody protested the United States hosting the olympics with such vehemence. Their five year occupation of iraq is far more bloody than the fifty year occupation of Tibet, which does have some legitimacy - (an independent Tibet is about as meaningful, probably less so, as an independent Quebec. Far less Tibetans have been killed than Kashmiris by India). The US also holds captive a larger proportion of its citizens than does China, including almost half its blacks.

How does the hypocrisy you are pointing out negate the justification for such protests?

What is "meaningful" about an occupied Tibet that would not benefit the region were it, as it has historically been, not part of China?

if India had a past of human rights violations and was a country that had undergone major reform and on the rise ready to set foot into the big boy's club by hosting the Olympics, would Indian-Americans use the Olympic torch relay as an opportunity to protest currently looming human rights issues?

nobody protested the United States hosting the olympics with such vehemence. Their five year occupation of iraq is far more bloody than the fifty year occupation of Tibet

I support Tibetan nationalism, but I don't support these protests. It's not "Beijing's Bloody Torch" they are snatching, it's the Olympics torch, and that should transcend all this. Think of all the black athletes who embarrassed Hitler himself and the Nazis at the Berlin '38 games. Read up on Jesse Owens here.

* In 1976 (Montreal), all the countries in Africa boycotted the Olympics when New Zealand, whose rugby team had toured apartheid South Africa (banned since 1964 from the Olympics), participated.
* In 1980 (Moscow), sixty six countries boycotted the Olympics because of the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan.
* That same year, Taiwan boycotted the Lake Placid Olympics when asked to compete under the Chinese flag as one team.
* In 1984, the USSR and Eastern Bloc countries retaliated against the Moscow boycott by refusing to participate in the Los Angeles games. Let's not pretend that the Olympics are a special exception to political protest.

While I agree that there are many causes that deserve attention and protest, I do not agree with the logic that one should not go out in protest over this particular cause just because no one protested over some other important cause. It makes no sense.

In addition, the Olympics are not just about sports and have not been just about sports for decades. It has always been political and more about commercial interest than sportsmanship. Why shouldn't pro-Tibet groups use the massive publicity generated by the Olympics to advance their cause? The time is right. In fact, Burma groups in Thailand will also be using the Olympics as a platform to highlight the atrocities of 8th August 1988 and China's backing of the junta there. I am all for hijacking the Olympics in the name of human rights!

There will be a demonstration in Bangkok when the torch gets here on the 19th of April - so far the pro-Tibet rallies here have been small but loud, and hopefully any Bangkok desis reading this will come out in support.

I apologize for my previous cynicism. It was temporary and I have since reverted to my original position that these protests are indeed a good thing.
I was deriding the protestors for going only for symbolic effect, but sadly that is all they can do and can't realistically affect things like their nations' economic cooperation with China. I failed to see that the Jesse Owens thing was only symbolic and did nothing to stem the tide of Nazism, and it could be argued that it would have hurt Hitler more if the world had isolated Germany then.

What I find really interesting is that the police reaction to these protests is making the rest of the world look like China.

I live in San Francisco, and I attended the protest, the speech and candlelight vigil. I proudly waved and held the Tibetan flag high and voiced my support for a "Free Tibet".

I went to show my solidarity with the Tibetan people, to stand up and to be counted, to protest human rights violations and to non-violently raise my voice and my consciousness.

Right now I feel tired, my back hurts, my shoulders hurt, and my feet are numb. But inside, I feel a sense of calm and peace within myself.
Ultimately, we should do whatever helps us sleep well at night, and I will definitely sleep well tonight.

You can choose to ignore this issue, you can choose to support it silently within your conscious, you can dismiss it, discuss it, stand for it.
Again, whatever helps you sleep well at night.

It only takes a few searches on youtube to see the struggles of the Tibetan people, read about the abduction(and disappearance) of the 6 year old Panchen lama by Chinese authorities , to watch a monk starve himself for six days and on the seventh day, set himself on fire, or to watch Tibetan people being shot at as they try to escape. You can even watch a NewYork cop say "om mani padme hum" on a loudspeaker to the Tibetans who were protesting there recently. Those words mean "I honor the jewel in the lotus/heart of humans". Sweet cop.

Having visited Dharamsala and being aware of the solidarity that our country, India, has shown to Tibetans, Nepalese and Bhutanese people in the past, only makes me prouder to be an Indian and stand by them in their hour of need. I'd love for the current Indian government to remember this past and do the right thing and not worry about economic consequences. I'd love to see the Chinese people wake up and not let themselves be brainwashed by propaganda, and to realize that Tibetans love them, but are protesting against the government and not the people of China.

I was just wondering, hypothetically, if India had a past of human rights

What do you mean in the past? India is TODAY the worst violator of human rights in the world. It leads the world in child slavery, child prostitution, child malnutrition etc. Is that not a violation of the rights of children? Then there is the culture of untouchability, widow shunning the hereditary caste system and so on. Not to mention the occupation by force of Kashmir and the tibeto-burmese northeastern states.

The west today couldnt care less about India or indians. It is far more concerned with Africa, China and the Middle East. But that will change someday and the hypocrisy and shamelessness of indians pointing fingers at others will become front page news.

In response comment posted by Vyasa, here is a link to a Human Rights Watch statement made a couple days ago calling for the UN Human Rights Council to tackle India's rights record, specifically in the northeast and Jammu-Kashmir: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/04/07/india18442.htm. I posted it in the News section of this site earlier today.

noblekinsman

You are so misguided, its kinda funny. First of all, protesting the US over Iraq is no option because they are not holding the Olympics. When you question the legitimacy of Tibetan Independence and compare it to Kashmir, we should understand that what Indian armed forces did/does in Kashmir deserves as much an uproar as Tibetan Independence, and this is coming from an Indian. And it is not about color either brother, it is about a people who have a large population displaced and a larger population which is supressed.

And also it does not matter what the US does, the policies of the American government should not become the guideline for other nations.

Tibet is 'in' right now, and will be till the Olympics are over. After the hype is over, the situation will be back to as it was, Tibetans crossing into India by the thousands, getting shot at at and Tibetans becoming a minority in their own country along with the state sponsored erosion of an ancient culture.

What the protesters aim of achieving by protesting is creating an awareness of the situation in Tibet.

If you have lived side by side with Tibetans in India, it becomes much more easier to understand their situation and their demand for their homeland.

To top it all of, the disrespect the Chinese (not just the government even the Chinese people), show for The Dalai Lama is outrageous. It is like disrespecting th Pope or any other religious leaders.. The attitude of the Chinese towards the Dalai Lama just adds to the feeling of oppression.

And yes never forget Gedhun Choekyi Nyima.

It is great that these protests are casting the international spotlight on Tibet (although, somehow, all the other widespread human rights abuses in China seem to be a non-issue), and maybe some countries will do something symbolic like choosing to boycott the games, or something even more vacuous, like not participate in the opening ceremonies. But the sad reality in today's world is that these gestures are ultimately mere showboating (as parodied quite effectively by Colbert) and will be forgotten by every one of us the moment we see our $1.99 pack of 12 tube socks at the neighborhood Walmart. Three cheers for the power of free markets!

The Tibetan qustion is not just about Human Rights violation. The difference with USA or India is that it would be possible to stage a protest in these countries against Human Rights Violations any day of the year. The Olympics is the only time when you can protest against Human Rights Violations in China, without the communist government being able to do anything. Keep the protest coming!

On the question would I pprotest if it was India, yes I would and I do, so do many Indians every day of the year. Have you not een all the demonstrations in India?!

I support Tibetan nationalism, but I don't support these protests. It's not "Beijing's Bloody Torch" they are snatching, it's the Olympics torch, and that should transcend all this.

SSK, China is going to run the Olympic Torch through Tibet as if it were part of China. So the Chinese are using the Olympics to help cement the idea that Tibet is fully integrated with China. It's not as if the Tibetan nationalists are sullying the pure non-political Olympics. Besides, remember the American boycott of the Moscow Olympics in 1980? Or the killing of Israeli athletes in Munich? The Olympics are political.

To top it all of, the disrespect the Chinese (not just the government even the Chinese people), show for The Dalai Lama is outrageous. It is like disrespecting th Pope or any other religious leaders..

No, it's like refusing to recognize the ruler of Tibet, whose power they usurped.

Their five year occupation of iraq is far more bloody than the fifty year occupation of Tibet

This I highly doubt.

Chinese-American here. Gonna chime in "our" side since the comments all seem neutral or anti.

In this case Western intelligence incited a violent riot that killed 22 civilians and burned 200 buildings or so. It is understood the CIA funds the Tibetan government in exile and sent Tibetan-American operatives to organize this affair. (The funding is openly documented in CIA fronts such as Freedom House. The role of U.S.-trained Tibetan-Americans I read about at Rediff.com three or four days ago.)

Some readers here may genuinely care about the Tibetans. Western intelligence agencies do not; they use the Tibetans as tools.

The neocons incited the Chechens against the Russians in the 1990s, various minority uprisings against Iran's Persian 52% majority since 2001, and did all they can to foment a civil war between the Kurdish-Sunni-Shite triad in Iraq.

It is plain divide-and-conquer.

India is lucky to have Russia, Iran, and China as its "outter gates", so to speak, to absorb these neocon power moves.

If it were not us, they would just as soon divide-and-conquer India. Consider the Tibet situation, where pacifist minority of just .5% can be made to riot. It would be a cinch in India with the Muslims and various castes and regional ethnicities.

It is known the CIA tried to splinter India during the Cold War.

They don't care if you're a "democracy" or not, only whether a country exercises sovereign power.

Their real argument against the CCP of China (of which I'm no fan of), is that authoritarian governments are much more difficult for the CIA to infiltrate behind the scenes, to bribe a political party, open a medium outlet, etc. The CIA has applied these same tactics in every color-revolution since 2000: Lebanon, Serbia, Ukraine, Georgia, and Kyrgystan. To those one can add the failed color-revolutions in Uzbekistan and Belarus.

I think this is clear from the neocon-written National Security Strategy 2002;2006 which states the objective of global hegemony.

My convoluted argument is, India sits a decades-long geopolitical sweet spot because all U.S. containment effort is exerted elsewhere. So long as the world is multipolar India can extract favorable conditions from the U.S. It can "play the other poles off", so to speak.

Were the world not multipolar, India may expect the same type of hostilty and creeping containment from the US that Russia receives today.

India is safest in a muti-polar world. So is China, and Russia, for that matter. Therefore, I argue that each should, if not support each other, express neutrality.

5 year occupation of Iraq bloodier than 50 years occupation of Tibet, what a nutcase! Still you are free to protest against the Iraq war any time you want, it's done by high ranked politicians in the US regularly. The Olympic games however is used to cement the idea of Tibet as an integral part of China, and no protests is allowed. That is why these actions are so important.

22 · Han said

Chinese-American here. Gonna chime in "our" side since the comments all seem neutral or anti.
...

I really appreciate you writing this, and bringing a different point of view. I read your post, and it was quite insightful.
I agree that a multipolar world is better (and a united world would be the best, but not happening in my lifetime)

However, I don't agree that neutrality helps solve anything. It only keeps things surface-peaceful and pseudo-balanced and prolongs the impending.
I don't think the world hates the Chinese people. They hate the government. Just like they hate the current US government.
The former regime has got to change. The latter is changing this year. Vote.

I don't buy everyone's outrage over China. nobody protested the United States hosting the olympics with such vehemence. Their five year occupation of iraq is far more bloody than the fifty year occupation of Tibet, which does have some legitimacy

As an American, I would support similar international protests during the torch relay if an American city were hosting the Olympics. Our war in Iraq is a crime and that should be publicized at every opportunity. So I also don't have a problem with pro-Tibet protesters doing the same.

Holy Mandala!

India is lucky to have Russia, Iran, and China as its "outter gates", so to speak, to absorb these neocon power moves.

Fantastic morning so far - a doughnut, cuppa coffee and a threadful of nonsense!

Han

We do want a multi-polar world but also one in which people can express their feelings without fear. Do you really think that the chinese authoritarian system is making it safer or stronger? Its the opposite actually - and, yes, when you are weak or enemies will attack. And the CIA does have a history of fishing around wherever it can.

The chinese political system is too closed and information given to its citizens is biased and incomplete. Why is google censored in china? Why is it a crime to own a picture of the Dalai Lama in Tibet? These are very poor ways of trying to control political thinking - maybe its OK if the whole country is starving and at war and economic progress is the only thing that is needed. But is that the case in China today?

No country is "good" vs. "bad". The indian govt deserves huge criticism for some its actions in Kashmir and NE India. But you can express these criticisms in India. The US govt has made a monumental blunder with 10's of thousands killed in Iraq - you can see the demonstrations in US and impact on US elections. So the question is why the chinese govt policy in Tibet - which has caused 10s of thousands of deaths over last 50 years - should be exempt from criticism?

Although India may have some issues on the human rights side of things, it is nowhere close to the worst violator as I could probably think of a dozen countries easily right now that are far worse. The issue with Tibet is very complicated, and I know most people in America learned about it from watching Brad Pitt in 7 Years in Tibet, but it's not as easily wrapped up as that.

Look, I'm a fan of the underdog. I always find myself rooting for the long shot; hell, I've voted Libertarian at times. The bottom line is that while I am OK with the idea of these protests (freedom of speech), I think that people need to remember that A) China is not a monster, even if her government has a bit of a heavy hand from time to time and B) although I would concede that unfortunately the Olympics has become politicized, no country is totally innocent and we run the risk of every year boycotting or otherwise protesting where the games are held.

So to conclude: people are free to protest, but we should respect the sanctity of the torch and what it represents.

So the question is why the chinese govt policy in Tibet - which has caused 10s of thousands of deaths over last 50 years - should be exempt from criticism?

it shouldn't be. But I think what han is pointing out is that one should be aware that organized protests are often "used" by the U.S. government--who, and here I agree with han, have no special love for tibetans--for its own purposes (witness the situation of the kurds, currently a u.s. favorite in iraq, but who were routinely sold to be butchered--first by turkey, then by saddam--when it suited U.S. interests). So one should be aware of the foreseeable implications of large organized protests. This is however, not to say that protests should not happen, but only that the protest strategy should be rethought. It is also true that in international relations there are no permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests.

Not to be cynical, but what will this protest do? The U.S. will stay go to the Olympics regardless.

Han,
What multi-polar world are you talking about? The one where China sold ring magnets to Pakistan and allowed them access to nuclear technology to threaten India with,or the one in which China keeps claiming Arunachal and Sikkim while saying "Tibet is an integral part of China" or the one in which China occupies Aksai Chin?. Indians are skeptical of the Chinese government and anybody who supports it and rightly so.

As far as the neo-con conspiracy theories go, do you have any proof of these. India's interest is best served by a friendly neighborhood with countries that look to cooperate and work with it, not looking to run it down. Unfortunately that is not the case now, our biggest threats are in our neighborhood and not from far away America. Therefore, we have no use for the "multi-polar" arrangement. It is not like India with its castes and muslims as you claim, as these castes and muslims were not forcibly occupied by India, unlike China occupied Tibet. China moved in and occupied Tibet without any reason or provocation.

And as Al-beruni says, countries get criticized for their real or alleged rights violations, why should China be exempt from criticizm?

@Vyasa,
India is the worst violator huh? Maybe you should spend more time in countries like Haiti,Bangladesh, the whole continent of Africa, or China. You will see what REAL human rights abuse is. If you think India is so bad you are free not to visit India and renounce your Indian citizenship (assuming you are a citizen).

Han , Google Yasin Malik and India Today. The former was a gun toting anti-India militant [islamic terrorist in my opinion] who now preaches the Gandhian way; the latter is the Indian version of the Time and Newsweek magazine.
Last month, India Today invited Malik to address its annual forum, where the who is who of the global elite were speaking, including members of the Indian Govt.
Now, can you imagine a Chinese news outlet affording the Dalai Lama such a platform?

Seccessionist movements are nothing new to India and at any given point in time, there are a number of those going on in India. Indian government's response to those vary from reasonable to outright brutal in some extreme cases.
But Indian policy has never been to resettle the seccessionist areas with different ethnic people. That policy is not even on the table. That is the difference between China's response to Tibet and India's responses to Indian flare ups.

Han - If America is, as you claim, really worse than China, Iran and Pakistan [India's shield], one wonders why you chose to live there and not, China, Pakistan or Iran?

Oh Han, you took so many words to say so very little. Do you seriously believe that stuff? I'm sure playing people off each other is good for Indian interests, but, please.

Some people who protest care about the Tibetans and some people want to give the Chinese a good bloody nose, PR-wise. Why? Lots of reasons, but the best one is protesting human's right abuses and authoritarianism. China a bullwark for India against blood thirsty neocons? That's a good one. Sure, India can be as neutral as she wants but that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about free peoples congregating to protest. And it's a beautiful thing.

*Oh, protest the Iraq War, too, if that's your want. See, this is what free peoples get up to.

Have a lovely, peaceful, and powerful protest SF'ers!

oh by the way, vyasa/prema is a troll (as many others have pointed out in different threads), please do not respond.

Han - Desidude has rightly pointed out in #31 about India's issues with China. If India's options are a China which has attacked India in the past, forcibly taken it's territories and claims more of them, supports India's other big problem Pakistan, has a track record of human rights violation and lack of free speech and the other option is a US who albeit is not to be trusted either but whose interests align with India's at the moment, why would an India be stupid to kiss a$$ when it comes to China.

Of course, this is not to say that there are sections in India which lean towards China and that the Indian Govt is weak and instead of using thw Tibet issue as a leverage and getting China to back off from Arunachal etc, we are following a policy of appeasing China without any benefits. Stupid that!

And yes, the Indian army has been accused of violations in the NE and Kashmir and I would like to see more transparency there and if the allegations are true, I would like the violations to stop.

Rahul wrote..
"Not to be cynical, but what will this protest do? The U.S. will stay go to the Olympics regardless"

--
Or , perhaps, this is Dubya's golden opportunity to redeem himself with a pacifist swan song.

Well, I don't know what it will specifically do for the Tibetans, but it will prevent the torch relay from being used as propaganda. Authoritarian regimes like that sort of thing, propaganda-wise.

India is the worst violator huh? Maybe you should spend more time in countries like Haiti,Bangladesh, the whole continent of Africa, or China. You will see what REAL human rights abuse

Lumping China with India, Bangladesh, Haiti etc is absurd and ignorant. Chinese children go to schools. They are not forced to work as bonded slaves or prostitutes as so many millions are in India. And even subsaharan Africa does a better job feeding its children than India does. Which is a more fundamental right: the right to food, clean water, sanitation facilities or the right to vote in a democracy? Thumping your chest over India's imitated (and failed) political system is not going to feed its hungry children or give dignity to its untouchables and widows, is it? Get your priorities straight.

Regarding the torch and "neutral" or "universal" ideals of sport it is supposed to represent: the torch was a marketing ploy first put into play by the Nazis for the Berlin olympics. Good summary here:

the argument that sport can be made entirely free of politics is not sustainable.

Han:

India is safest in a muti-polar world. So is China, and Russia, for that matter. Therefore, I argue that each should, if not support each other, express neutrality

True dat. The neocon fantasies of a hegemonic American Empire have gone up in smoke thanks to the disaster in Iraq and the economic meltdown. A strong China and Russia counter the "white (anglo) man's burden" of ruling the world . Too many indians on the other hand, both fake leftist liberals and fake right-wing nationalist jingos, still cling to the vain hope that the anglosaxons will use them as sepoys and slaves in their "war on terror" and their "containment" of China. They just cannot imagine a world in which their masters are not dominant. Even the thought terrifies them. This fear comes from a very deep rooted lack of self-confidence and self-respect.

38 · Neale said

Rahul wrote..

Neale, that Rahul isn't me, btw.

During the 1999 kargil conflict, one the first units to enter combat were the "Ladakh Scouts" who are over 90% ethnic Tibetan.

They did this because they knew the terrain and did not need the 3 days of acclimatization the rest of the Indian army needed to fight at 10,000 feet.

They also took 15:1 casualties.

When all the talking is done, the one who does the fighting and dying for you is your true friend.

Now you, the SF mutineers are standing up for your Tibetan cousins. Shabaash !!!

43 · Rahul said

38 · Neale said

Rahul wrote..

Neale, that Rahul isn't me, btw.

This multi-headed-Rahul will start attracting the faithful.

In response to 33, RC

You do realize that much of the Northeast where separatism is a factor is actively being resettled by Bengali immigrants.

It's funny that many Indians piss and moan about China repressing Tibetans when Indian policy towards it's own Himalayan minorities is not dissimilar.

Jing

First, of all, property rights of minorities are protected in many parts of india. You cannot buy property in Kashmir, Nagaland, Mizoram etc if you are an outsider. Second, if there are problems, such as too many bengali/bihari immigrants, you are free to protest. Often there are protests, sometimes even violent, but still people are free to express difference of opinion and demand change.

Do you understand the point here? No govt is perfect - US, India, China etc. All have committed errors and mistakes.

The question is - why is there no right to protest in China? Why is there repression and killing but unwillingness to discuss it? Why is it illegal to own a copy of Dalai Lama's picture? Why is Google censored in China?

Can you try to answer these specific questions? For some reasons no one wants to answer them.

whatever your viewpoints on this issue, at least you're able to read/express them in an open forum like this.

while i'm not really a mutineer, more of a sometimes-lurker, i wish i'd read this earlier. if anyone wants to join a group going to the protests, i work for amnesty and we're having people meet at our offices at 1663 mission. we're only here for another half hour or so, and then walking. we'll be there handing out signs and runner's bibs, though, so be on the lookout!

42 · Vyasa said

The neocon fantasies of a hegemonic American Empire have gone up in smoke thanks to the disaster in Iraq and the economic meltdown

Um. The economic meltdown isn't all of the right's fault. Have you ever heard about the Community Reinvestment Act?

http://townhall.com/columnists/JerryBowyer/2008/04/01/meet_barry_obama,_fair_housing_lawyer

http://townhall.com/columnists/JerryBowyer/2008/04/06/how_community_organizers_like_obama_created_the_subprime_crisis

Yea it must be all of the neocons fault (sarcasm).

Have fun with your boy Barry Obama.

Northeast where separatism is a factor is actively being resettled by Bengali immigrants.

@Desidude & Ardy

On the boundary issue
From afar, it seems like the claimants have "good faith" dispute arising because (1) the wasteland area was never demarcated, so objectively non one can really make a solid claim as to the exact boundary; (2) the disputed areas were never part of the core of either country; (3) they are not populated by the main ethnic group of either country. Obviously there are some on both sides who want 100% of the disputed area, others willing to settle it at 50-50 or whatever.

To me - as someone who knows little of the issue's history, the logical solution is to fix it at the current LOC, especially since the territories' value is relatively slight in the overall economic & security context. This could be done in 1 hour if both sides desired, given satellite mapping and exact lattitude/longitude.

Probably China, had I a say in running it, could even have much of the Tibetan plateau demilitarized of heavy weapons to alleviate India's security concerns. If the boundary dispute is settled nothing except border guards and maybe some light infantry are needed. (Basing stuff costs money, so it's win/win.)

Personally I don't know which side is impeding a final agreement. If it is the CCP holding things up it's because they probably don't recognize the importance of settling the issue to India. When I look at Rediff threads 1/3 are on the border disputes with Pakistan or China; on Xinhua threads, not so much.

Interesting. Just wrote a post on this very issue on my blog.

Protesting is a fundamental right, indeed a bounded duty, as my man, Benjamin Franklin would have said.

But I can't help but think that most of the protesers in London, Paris and SFO belong to the Che-T-shirt-wearing, bleeding-heart liberal segment who wouldn't think twice before purchasing any products of these brands sponsoring the Beijing Olympics:
http://en.beijing2008.cn/90/53/column211995390.shtml

Where were these guys when China was awarded the Olympics more than eight years ago? Also, have they spared a thought for the thousands of athletes whose dream it is to participate in these Games?

As Rahul mentioned, these people would choose EDLP (Every Day Low Prices) over FT (Free Tibet) in a heartbeat.

Sorry, I meant to post using my regular handle, 'Buzza'. Typed in my first name instead in post # 52. Apologies.

Vyasa,
Chinese children go to school. Oh boy,Gee what a revelation. I did not know that /sarcasm off
Now,
Have you heard of the brick kiln in China where thousands of children were held in slavery

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/18/news/china.php

Guess those children were just doing a little after school work I guess. Silly me

And why is comparing India to Bangladesh, haiti etc..absurd. You said India has the WORST human rights record, you did not say BAD, you said worst. Therefore, there should be nobody worse than India right?

Oops there goes that argument

@ Al beruni

We do want a multi-polar world but also one in which people can express their feelings without fear. Do you really think that the chinese authoritarian system is making it safer or stronger? Its the opposite actually - and, yes, when you are weak or enemies will attack. And the CIA does have a history of fishing around wherever it can.

The chinese political system is too closed and information given to its citizens is biased and incomplete. Why is google censored in china? Why is it a crime to own a picture of the Dalai Lama in Tibet? These are very poor ways of trying to control political thinking - maybe its OK if the whole country is starving and at war and economic progress is the only thing that is needed. But is that the case in China today?

I strongly suspect the main reason for continued censorship in China is precisely because the CIA & bought reporters run wild when restrictions are loosened. That sounds like paranoia to the average liberal American but it’s not.

Cynically, that’s probably the real reason why the US always badgers China on this issue – because such operations are no longer possible. That restrictions may hinder China’s citizens probably does not actually matter to them.

I’ll further play the devil’s advocate and claim that even with restrictions speech is *far* freer in China than in the US.

In the U.S., the *speech code* of political correctness forces one to pre-censor one’s word stream. This is highly irritating, at least to me.

I have traveled to China. You can say anything in everyday speech, including criticism of the government. Nobody cares. I’ve written analyses of problems with swathes of the government’s policies, including those pertaining to the Communist ideological core, and they’re posted online by mainstream research organizations in China. The government doesn’t care.

A professor could advocate all the usual human rights stuff in class and no one cares. In the U.S., choose the wrong word and the professor’s fired. Pick a particularly bad word his career’s over.

Someone in China would have to really go out of their way to get the government on their case, like open an activist organization and make repetitive, unsound arguments.

The activist arrests publicized on CNN (e.g. Harry Wu, Rebiya Kadeer), it turns out ~80-90% are on foreign intelligence payroll.

> But I can't help but think that most of the protesers in London, Paris and SFO belong to the Che-T-shirt-wearing, bleeding-heart liberal segment who wouldn't think twice before purchasing any products of these brands sponsoring the Beijing Olympics

Nah, sorry. If you were there at any of these protests, you'd clearly see that the people protesting were NOT the "Che" variety, including myself. Che was not a pacifist, and yesterday's rally was 100% non violent.

And for what its worth, When I heard that Coca Cola was sponsoring the torch run through Tibet, I clearly decided not to purchase Coca Cola again (It'd be good for my health anyway).
So, last night after the rally, when ordering some fast food, Seeing that "Coca Cola" and its posse of drinks were the only thing served at that place, I chose water.
I'm gonna follow this up with a letter to their PR department. American companies need to put ethics before capitalistic greed.

"bleeding-heart liberal" ?
Ok, I'll take that label. Whats wrong with having compassion?

Han, did you go to Tianmen Square with your T-shirt emblazoned with "Free Tibet"?

Oh, and needless to say, I am boycotting Orange Sesame Chicken as well.
Damnit! I loved that thing!

Nah, sorry. If you were there at any of these protests, you'd clearly see that the people protesting were NOT the "Che" variety, including myself. Che was not a pacifist, and yesterday's rally was 100% non violent.

Agreed. But rax, my point was not that these protests were violent. Hell, most people in the 'Che' variety are passive herbal tea drinkers who while away the hours discussing 'oppression' and 'free love' at places like Veggie-Planet in Cambridge (which is awesome, by the way).

My point was that a lot of these protesters are simply along for the ride, and are actually hurting the cause of the Tibetans by deflecting attention away from the real issues, which is Tibetans not getting their share of the economic pie that the Chinese are baking. His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, does not approve of such tactics and has categorically ruled out a boycott of the Olympics.

"bleeding-heart liberal" ? Ok, I'll take that label. Whats wrong with having compassion?

None at all. Except that my point was this 'compassion' is somewhat driven by wallets and brand loyalty. You passed on Coke (!), good on you. No, really.

Han,
The Communist propaganda must be very strong. So you have more free speech in China? Maybe the Falun Gong sect can have something to say on that. Oops, their organs have been harvested already. China bans google, has no independent private news channels in the mainland, that is not censored, bans foreign journals in Tibet except for a few doctored photoshoots, and you still claim that China is better in free speech.

US has a few problems with PC, but it nowhere compares to the censoring in China. Yeah the US badgers China as China tries to screw the US at every chance. Just a few days ago, a DOD official was caught trying to sell military secrets to China. Now the US is no angel and is a cynical, selfish power but so is everyone else. But there atleast one can protest (like against the iraq war) and call the president names without fear. When such a thing is possible in China, you can claim about freedom in China. Not till then.

And like Al-beruni asked,if China is so great and US is so evil why are you in the US?

I am just wondering, if India were in China's situation would we still rally?

Indian origin South Asian regional specialists in academia do nothing besides criticize India, so that pretty much answers your question. China specialists on the other hand urge "nuance & balance" in the examination of PROC. How else has a country that pushes Han monoculturalism and even spent money for scientific research "proving" that they developed from a separate branch of early humanity escape the fascist tag?

And like Al-beruni asked,if China is so great and US is so evil why are you in the US?

Look this is a bad argument; its like saying you cannot criticize a government or a state/regime unless you leave it. Han possibly likes living here, has friends and family here, but all that is completely irrelevant to his argument (flawed though they may be). This "like it or leave it" mentality is deeply authoritarian and uncomfortably smells like a commissar's line (or occasional lines from the rulers of Singapore when sometimes questioned about the lack of freedom).

Why is google censored in china?

Why are American businesses with catchy mission statements like "do no evil" operating in China?

Why did, until very recently, AT&T secretly provide direct access to its network to the NSA for monitoring internet traffic?

The reality is the people who are for the 'Free Tibet' movement have no clue how complex the issue is. Even the Dalai Lama acknowledges that the monk-aristocracy that ruled Tibet is something that should be left in the past. He has acknowledged that Tibet's future is as a part of China.

I do not like how China treats him and I think these protests only weaken his position, because it only antagonizes China.

China views the Olympic games as their 'coming out' and taking their rightful place in the world. They view it in the context of a nation with a history of being victimized by colonialism and western imperialism.

The people in this forum would balk at the mere suggestion of a vote of self-determination in Kashmir. How much sympathy do you all have for the descendants of the Princely states who want their territorial claims returned?

These protests are silly and show just how disconnected and out-of-touch westerners are with the changes going on in Asia.

@ Krish#$%,

The reality is the people who are for the 'Free Tibet' movement have no clue how complex the issue is.

Ok,enlighten us.

I do not like how China treats him and I think these protests only weaken his position, because it only antagonizes China.

China views the Olympic games as their 'coming out' and taking their rightful place in the world. They view it in the context of a nation with a history of being victimized by colonialism and western imperialism

While they go about doing the same to others

The people in this forum would balk at the mere suggestion of a vote of self-determination in Kashmir. How much sympathy do you all have for the descendants of the Princely states who want their territorial claims returned?

Umm,the plebistice for Kashmir is unnecessary as the, the legal ruler signed a document aggreeing to be a part of India. He did this as Pakistan invaded. Had Pakistan not invaded in 1948, Kashmir could very well be independent.As far as the princely states go, no sympathy as the ruled in those states as very happy to be a part of India. There are no protests in Hyderabad against being a part of India, clearly not in the case of Tibet. Besides, all the princely states had always been a part of "India" be the Mauryan or the Mughal empire. Going by your logic, CA and TX should be a part of Mexico right?

These protests are silly and show just how disconnected and out-of-touch westerners are with the changes going on in Asia.

No,this just shows how ignorant you are

@ sigh!
What I meant was Han's constant claim that China is better than the US. Therefore, my question was very relevant. If he thinks China so much better than the US, why stay here?. It is not authoritarian to point out hypocrisy. If you are a citizen of a country while claiming allegiance to another antogonistic country, you have no business staying in the first country (kinda like Tokyo Rose)

Oh, and needless to say, I am boycotting Orange Sesame Chicken as well.

Is this a serious comment, or parody?

The economic meltdown isn't all of the right's fault. Have you ever heard about the Community Reinvestment Act?

I don't want to derail the thread, but didn't want to leave this comment unchallenged, so just one note on it. Blaming predatory lending practices on the CRA - which made them illegal - is a humongous stretch and a fringe view probably being floated to avoid further legislation, the really serious problem has been the absolute lack of any sort of regulation of the mortage-backed securities market, based on a baseless argument of "market responsibility" which has been disproven time and time again. The estimates of the entire credit derivative market, and the nominal values of the CDS that the big banks are believed to hold, are staggering. Any sort of reasonable disclosure would never allows this mindblowing level of risk taking, which is now requiring massive bailouts on taxpayer money.

Desidude,

Your comments remind me of the following saying:

It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt :(

And why is comparing India to Bangladesh, haiti etc..absurd. You said India has the WORST human rights record, you did not say BAD, you said worst

Of course India has by far the WORST human rights record on earth. In what other country is 15% of the population considered untouchable by birth? Which country treats women and children as cruelly as India? Which country has such a high number of beggars? Which country has a higher malnutrition rate than the subsaharan region if not India (and Bangladesh)? Which country is home to more bonded labor? To more child slaves? To more child prostitutes (sanctioned by the majority religion even)? Read and weep if you have any shame at all:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/India3.htm

"With credible estimates ranging from 60 to 115 million, India has the largest number of working children in the world. Whether they are sweating in the heat of stone quarries, working in the fields sixteen hours a day, picking rags in city streets, or hidden away as domestic servants, these children endure miserable and difficult lives. They earn little and are abused much. They struggle to make enough to eat and perhaps to help feed their families as well. They do not go to school; more than half of them will never learn the barest skills of literacy. Many of them have been working since the age of four or five, and by the time they reach adulthood they may be irrevocably sick or deformed-they will certainly be exhausted, old men and women by the age of forty, likely to be dead by fifty.

Most or all of these children are working under some form of compulsion, whether from their parents, from the expectations attached to their caste, or from simple economic necessity. At least fifteen million of them, however, are working as virtual slaves.3 These are the bonded child laborers of India. This report is about them."

The practice of child debt servitude has been illegal in India since 1933, when the Children (Pledging of Labour) Act was enacted under British rule. Since independence, a plethora of additional protective legislation has been put in place. There are distinct laws governing child labor in factories, in commercial establishments, on plantations, and in apprenticeships. There are laws governing the use of migrant labor and contract labor. A relatively recent law-the Child Labour (Prohibition and Regulation) Act of 1986-designates a child as "a person who has not completed their fourteenth year of age."10 It purports to regulate the hours and conditions of some child workers and to prohibit the use of child labor in certain enumerated hazardous industries. (There is no blanket prohibition on the use of child labor, nor any universal minimum age set for child workers.)11 Most important of all, for children in servitude, is the Bonded Labour System (Abolition) Act, 1976 which strictly outlaws all forms of debt bondage and forced labor. These extensive legal safeguards mean little, however, without the political will to implement them. In India, this will is sorely lacking. All of the labor laws areroutinely flouted, and with virtually no risk of punishment to the offender. Whether due to corruption or indifference-and both are much in evidence-these laws are simply not enforced. In those rare cases where offenders are prosecuted, sentences are limited to negligible fines."

Why does India-the Indian government, the ruling elite, the business interests, the populace as a whole-tolerate this slavery in its midst? According to a vast and deeply entrenched set of myths, bonded labor and child labor in India are inevitable. They are caused by poverty. They represent the natural order of things, and it is not possible to change them by force; they must evolve slowly toward eradication.12

In truth, the Indian government has failed to protect its most vulnerable children. When others have stepped in to try to fill the vacuum and advocate on behalf of those children, India's leaders and much of its media have attributed nearly all "outside" attempts at action to an ulterior commercial motive. The developed world is not concerned with Indian children, this view holds, but rather with maintaining a competitive lead in the global marketplace. Holding to this defensive stance, some officials have threatened to end all foreign funding of child labor-related projects.

This nationalist rhetoric has been largely a diversionary tactic. What the government has hoped to hide is the news that, no matter how the data are analyzed, official efforts to end the exploitation of child laborers are woefully deficient"

"it is possible to end child servitude. The only thing lacking is will."

"It is not poverty which prevents India from investing more in its children, but rather the prejudices and values of those who create and implement policy in India.3"

The government's failure to enforce the Child Labour (Prohibition and Regulation) Act and the government's failure to enforce the Bonded Labour System (Abolition) Act-not to mention the failure to enforce the several other laws protecting child workers-are twin manifestations of the same set ofphenomena. These phenomena include apathy, caste and class bias, obstruction of enforcement efforts, corruption, low prioritization of the problem, and disregard for the deep and widespread suffering of bonded child laborers.......From India's top labor officials all the way down to the local level, where tehsildars (community leaders) use their influence to support the status quo, Human Rights Watch and other researchers have found a profound lack of concern for the plight of bonded and child laborers."

Han

strongly suspect the main reason for continued censorship in China is precisely because the CIA & bought reporters run wild when restrictions are loosened. That sounds like paranoia to the average liberal American but it’s not.

also

The activist arrests publicized on CNN (e.g. Harry Wu, Rebiya Kadeer), it turns out ~80-90% are on foreign intelligence payroll.

This is pretty serious paranoia, as tho' every criticism is an enemy in the payroll of the bad-bad USA. If you believe you have enemies everywhere, even when you are prospering and doing well, then all I can say is that this is an unbalanced view. i cannot agree with it.

Anyway, thanks for responding to my questions, I do appreciate that courtesy.

from msm...British Prime Minister Gordon Brown will skip the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics.

He became the second major world leader after German Chancellor Angela Merkel to decide to stay away from the opening ceremonies, although Brown’s office insisted Wednesday that he was not boycotting the Olympics and would attend the closing ceremony.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said last month that he was debating not attending the opening ceremony.

YEAH!

31 · Desidude said

@Vyasa,
India is the worst violator huh? Maybe you should spend more time in countries like Haiti,Bangladesh, the whole continent of Africa, or China. You will see what REAL human rights abuse is. If you think India is so bad you are free not to visit India and renounce your Indian citizenship (assuming you are a citizen).

Vyasa might well be a troll, and I can understand your being a tad upset at his/her comments, but do try not to drag us Bangladeshis down in your passionate defence of India. I don't mean to suggest that we don't have human rights abuses, but we've never seen anything like say, the Gujarat riots.

My point was that a lot of these protesters are simply along for the ride, and are actually hurting the cause of the Tibetans by deflecting attention away from the real issues, which is Tibetans not getting their share of the economic pie that the Chinese are baking.

This is correct. The pictures and videos from Lhasa show a city that looks more modern and developed with a far better infrastructure than any Indian city or town, so China is certainly growing the economic pie in Tibet. The same cannot be said about the tibeto-burmese states under Indian occupation. The fact that the tibetan rioters and looters targeted stores and businesses owned not only by han chinese but also hui muslims shows that the root cause of their grievance is economic. Tibetan culture isnt very mercantile so the locals are losing the economic competition. China will probably have to implement some sort of affirmative action for ethnic tibetans to address their grievances.

His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, does not approve of such tactics and has categorically ruled out a boycott of the Olympics.

True. The Dalai Lama has also ruled out independence for Tibet. He just wants some autonomy though which China is unwilling to relinquish.

Good anti Chinese and few anti US comments, our world is ruled by media, and most of them are run by big corporate CEO's who in turn are mostly Westerners, u name it FOX, BBC, CNN on and on, well to cut it short media has agenda and that is West is Best, downplaying other countries is biggest ammunition in US arsenal and I bet they play it pretty well, India becomes target for human rights in Kashmir, Russia becomes target for being communist and locking up oil tycoons, Cuba is ugly due to Fediel castro and so called illicit drugs, let me clarify US has more human rights violations, go see Lancaster's Loma Linda prison, these are the people who are in lock up for immigration violation, have you heard of china having prison only for immigration violations, read the following website http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10041.php

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown will skip the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics.

He became the second major world leader after German Chancellor Angela Merkel to decide to stay away from the opening ceremonies, although Brown’s office insisted Wednesday that he was not boycotting the Olympics and would attend the closing ceremony.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said last month that he was debating not attending the opening ceremony.

YEAH!

Big frickin' deal. I for one do not give a rat's ass whether these western leaders avoid the opening ceremonies or not, as long as the show goes on. The Beijing Olympic Games is likely to be the most spectacular event in the history of mankind. It will be unforgivable if the West, out of sheer jealousy of China's rise, somehow manages to ruin it for the rest of the world.

BTW, just the fact that such an unprecedented number of world leaders are planning to be in the stands for these Olympics shows how momentous this event is recognized as.

74 · Vyasa said

. The Beijing Olympic Games is likely to be the most spectacular event in the history of mankind.

What about the time Marsha beat Greg in that driving contest with the egg? That was pretty cool.

The Beijing Olympic Games is likely to be the most spectacular event in the history of mankind.

I personally enjoyed the Tiananmen Square Massacre much more.

76 · Rahul said

I personally enjoyed the Tiananmen Square Massacre much more.

how beorgoise. i prefer the cultural revolution.

74 · Vyasa said

The Beijing Olympic Games is likely to be the most spectacular event in the history of mankind.

Whether you mean spectacular in reference to its magnitude or literally in reference to the sensational and symbolic/ideological impact of the event, this is pretty over the top.

How is it over the top? Do you doubt that thanks to technology modern spectacles are more impressive than anything in history? China has shown that it can put on a helluva show as it did during the Hong Kong handover a decade ago. They will be going gang busters for the 3 plus hour opening ceremony in a hugely impressive brand new modernistic stadium. I fully expect this to be the most spectucular show of all time.

However, pollution is the one thing that could mar these games.

79 · Vyasa said

Do you doubt that thanks to technology modern spectacles are more impressive than anything in history?

The world moved to contact lenses a couple of decades ago.

so China is certainly growing the economic pie in Tibet.

And everybody knows that just like omelets, you cannot make pies without breaking a few hands. And legs. And heads. And dispensing with any semblance of due process. And without being the world's leader in executions.

The San Francisco torch relay was a spectacle all right!

After its parade was rerouted and shortened to prevent disruptions by massive crowds of anti-China protesters, the planned closing ceremony at the waterfront was canceled and moved to San Francisco International Airport. The flame was put directly on a plane and was not displayed.

Which, of course, brings you to that age old Taoist dilemma: If you throw a party so secret that nobody knows about it, does it count as a success?

Hey Rahul, maybe you should try to talk the chinese into using you as a clown during the opening ceremonies. Its not too late. Dressed in a red dhoti and nothing else, caste marks on your forehead, waving your spindly arms spastically, bobbing your coconut-oiled head, while cracking silly jokes incessantly in a high pitched voice, you could make the event even more memorable :)

69 · Al beruni said

Han

strongly suspect the main reason for continued censorship in China is precisely because the CIA & bought reporters run wild when restrictions are loosened. That sounds like paranoia to the average liberal American but it’s not.

also

The activist arrests publicized on CNN (e.g. Harry Wu, Rebiya Kadeer), it turns out ~80-90% are on foreign intelligence payroll.

This is pretty serious paranoia, as tho' every criticism is an enemy in the payroll of the bad-bad USA. If you believe you have enemies everywhere, even when you are prospering and doing well, then all I can say is that this is an unbalanced view. i cannot agree with it.

Anyway, thanks for responding to my questions, I do appreciate that courtesy.

Al beruni: I do not mean 80-90% of critics are foreign-funded -- only that percentage of arrested activists who receive CNN-level coverage are. My estimate's based on 10-15 years of empirical observation rather than mental illness.

Regarding media, the CIA has had a global purview going back to its early 1940s days. They operated globally in practically every country larger than Antigua by 1960. It's also generally known that upon entering a country they aggressively build or buy media access. (See Color Revolutions where they often build a media infrastructure from naught to back a candidate. Ominously, this media infrastructure remains in place for future use.)

Personally I can't consider this paranoia. It's just how things work.

Yes Prema but do you still look like this?

caste marks on your forehead

Oh Vyasa, that sounds so tempting. But I think I'll pass, I hear their caste marks have lead paint in them. And as you so astutely observed, the pollution there is the one teeny thing that's a real bitch.

I think I'll pass, I hear their caste marks have lead paint in them.

Dude you heard wrong, they dont make caste marks. They will let you bring your cow dung with you :)

66. Rahul said

Oh, and needless to say, I am boycotting Orange Sesame Chicken as well.

Is this a serious comment, or parody?

Vyasa, you are so right! Given China's flourishing child labor system (and this was just 2005, they've surely made even greater strides since!), an exploitative high-caste like myself should naturally feel at home with the similarly inclined communist overlords.

And I concede that you are a far better clown than I can ever aspire to be, so I won't get in your way any more while you use this thread as an arena to demonstrate your incessantly hilarious view of the world.

80 · Rahul said

The world moved to contact lenses a couple of decades ago.

Heh, Heh, Heh. The 2-second-delay-before-you-get-it-jokes are the best.

As the originator of the request to Anna, I was keen to rally our bloggers into a united front of South Asians against Chinese crimes against humanity..However, I am saddened that the discussion has disintegrated into a self-involved, inward-looking discourse. The point here is to support a down-trodden peoples, namely the Tibetans. Yes, I did attend the rally and merged with various different groups of people from Team Tibet/Team Darfur/Team Burma...etc. I was aghast at viciousness of the Chinese supporters as they taunted and gloated in the midst of the peaceful protestors. I personally got shoved in the chest by a half-crazed China supporter for no reason other than being in his way. I also witnessed rude gestures used only by Team China. It was China's aggressive behavior condensed into the American Chinese people. Shame, shame China. Shame, shame Gavin Newsome.

The Chinese supporters were very rude to the other protest groups, calling the Tibetans "slaves" etc. They outnumbered the Tibetans (given their population difference)

And yet, majority doesn't always win.
I think their whole strategy backfired because all I saw was Americans siding with the Tibetans and Burmese and Darfur-supporters, and telling the Chinese that they would boycott their products and "send them all back home". A Black man came upto me and told me "there's no getting through to these Chinese people. They just don't understand".

The mass media controls the sheeple, and it is not an Asian group that owns U.S. mass media. The same idiots could be incited against India on the issue of Kashmir with similar ease.