April 13, 2008
Honey, who shrunk the dosa?Food
A friend of mine emailed me this photograph of a mini-dosa from a desi restaurant’s lunch buffet in Davis Square:
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It’s not the size of the dosa that counts, it’s the flavour of the filling |
From a restauranteur’s perspective, this innovation makes perfect sense. You can’t serve everybody a dosa, it’s too large. And you can’t serve dosa slices either. Enter the mini-dosa, everybody gets dosaed, the restaurant has less waste, everybody goes home happy right?
And while we’re on the topic of alternadosas, how about totally American fillings like “Grilled Chicken with Goat Cheese, Spinach and Roasted Tomatoes” or “Tuna with Cilantro Chutney Dressing, Avacado, Arugala & Tomato”?
Are these reasonable innovations or travesties wrought by American commerce on the fine traditions of Madrasi South Indian cooking? In other words, is it a shanda like the bagel stick with the cream cheese inside, AKA the bagel Twinkie?
Ever toast, spread cream cheese on, and eat a bagel, and be like, damn, this is taking too long? Kraft’s Bagelfuls, essentially, a bagel Twinkie, are for you. A “Bagelful” is a frozen bagel tube with cream cheese inside. They’re kept in the refrigerator and then toasted, microwaved, or even eaten straight from the box. [Link]
How do we tell when a departure from beloved tradition is actually progress?
ennis on April 13, 2008 11:14 PM in Food · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Maybe when Punjoos stop calling it "Madrasi" cooking.
First place I ever had a dosa was in India, in a restaurant called Madras Woodlands. They called it Madrasi cooking then. Why is it eaten across the entire region? Do all South Indians eat dosas?
Funny you should mention this. I read an article in today's Washinton Post entitled "The Incredible Shrinking Restaurant Portion".
That may not be exactly what you're talking about, but it's still interesting. :)
so... i guess it wasnt a tangent after all. the pic is deep. tres deep.
If it tastes good, it's progress.
Sure, traditional dosa is large, and large-sized dosa is the archtype.
However, more than often, dosas are made small for many reasons - one of them is the size of thawa (frying flat pan). Often, people in their homes do not have thawa to make a large dosa, and is the size of an uthapam or little larger than paratha.
That's how my mother makes them. A bit thicker than a paper dosa and smaller. She was told this was home style. Still, how about a paper dosa the size of a green pepper slice or a drumstick?
We don't feed the chicken grain products any more. They're raised on a pure diet of soylent green.
Dosas are eaten across all of South India, and additionally different parts have their own modifications and interpretations, such as the Mysore Masala Dosa in Mysore (Karnataka), the Peserattu in Andhra Pradesh, and a little more distant, the adai (which has a different ratio of lentils to rice) in Kerala. You can see the different names given to this dish across various regions in India here. As you can see, it is called Dosa (or a phonetically extremely close variant of it) in all the Southern states.
When it's breakfast to go.
well, i had the lunch buffet at chola in nyc a month or two ago... and they brought each of us a mini dosa with the usual potato and onion filling as an appetizer. i thought it was a great idea...
yum yum yum!
Idli (sp?) all the way! :D
ahh.. tonight i had homemade dosas..from an auntie visiting from bangalore... yummmy... beats a restaurant any day of the week....
and as for bagelfuls... looks like a twinkie...
i'd rather have a pretzel stuffed with mustard :)
good times.
'Shrunken' dosas are are pretty common in India. I've lived my entire life in North India, and have seen lots of street-vendors ("thele-waalas") and roadside eateries ("dhabas") selling such pint sized dosas. When I was a kid, I used to think that they made this baby dosa because being North Indians, they didn't know how to make a proper dosa :) Of course, full-sized dosas are also pretty common all across the North.
Another example of a departure from beloved tradition is the rasam seafood soup.
(I had never seen "rasam' and "seafood" together in India.)
I first had rasam seafood soup at the Legal Seafood restaurant
and since then have reverse engineered it (quite easy) and offered
to friends, who like it very much.
We've had a skin color post, then a dating-marriage post, now a small dosa post. what is it? ratings week?
13 · Chitta said
This was an innovation waiting to happen! It's a great idea.
Damn! I can digest baby-idlis..not these baby dosas. cry my beloved MTR mangalore dosai mix.
gappa:
Yay! dosa canapes. Dosa is really too good to not be diversified.
In Brittany, France, the crepes/galettes are really just like dosa in taste and texture. I once had one with potato inside and guess what I was thinking.
rahul:
dosa::south indian snow::eskimo (inuit)
I never really thought of adai and pesaruttu as dosa. Even the uttapam is not a dosa. They try but nothing beats a dosa.
Heh Heh. On the topic of innovation. I use the dose batter to make crepes for my kids and fill them with strawberries/bananas/honey/nuts and Nutella. They love it. Much better than using white flour and eggs(vegetarian mom and all that...)
Dosas at home are usually smaller than the ones served at restaurants.
I dunno if Mysore Masala Dosa is genuinely from Mysore. I remember getting puzzled looks when asking for it there.
Mini dosas are crisper, just the way I like 'em. Plus, it's the buffet. Get over it. :P
I'll have to occupy the contrarian couch this time and say I'd really like to quote Triumph the Comic Insult Dog on this one, "These little dosas are nice...for me to poop on!"
Perhaps it's just because the only time I eat dosa it's a big event (family meal, going out to eat), but I can't envision myself eating an amount not guaranteed to give my stomach pause.
It's not the size that counts, it's what it comes with. And whoever bought that plate is getting ROBBED.
One emaciated chicken leg and cross-sections of capsicum and cucumber don't even begin to compare to three varieties of chutney (tomato, coconut, and onion, if you please) and sambar!
I think its from a place called Udipi in Karnataka, South Indian restaurants in Mumbai are called Udipi restuarants.
22 · ptr_vivek said
Since it was a buffet, the accompaniments were probably chosen by the diner... Maybe there was potato inside it.
That's easy. If it becomes a hit, it is progress. If it fails, it was somebody's stupid idea.
The first time I heard of and ate dosa was probably in the mid-Sixties when it was just starting to catch on in North India. Back then, even Connaught Place in Delhi had only one dosa outlet - Madras Coffee House on the second floor. It wasn't more than a few years after its first appearance in North India that dosas took the region by storm. It was the most sensible thing to eat when you had exactly two bucks (and I do mean rupees) in your pocket and somehow had to manage both a lunch and a bus ride.
One of my happiest memories of growing up in India was when our dad would take us all to our local dosa place, Bharat Coffee House, on Sunday mornings for some quality family time and equally high quality dosas, idlis and wadas. The meal would be followed by "pulled" coffee served in stainless steel glasses, and despite our tender age, he would allow us the occasional glass of caffeine.
Dosas in those days, though not quite as snack-size as in Ennis's post, were still fairly small. I remember we always ate idli and wada to round off a dosa meal. The gigantic dosas were a much later innovation, when restaurant owners began to understand the in-store marketing value of eye appeal. Who says supersizing is a peculiarly American phenomenon?
It is still possible to find chapati size dosas in South India. It is no different than finding small, unassuming pizzas in Italy. When it is your native cuisine, you serve it every which way. Let others supersize and glorify it.
Good post, Ennis. Thanks for starting my Monday morning with a walk down the memory "gulley" of India in search of the perfect dosa.
24 · Gargoyle said
Righto. Well that'll teach me to finish my coffee before reading anything in the morning.
Sizes of almost all prepared foods are shrinking, thanks to the high commodity prices around the world.
Let's consider the ingredients of masala dosa:
Rice: Up 60% in the last couple of years. Some riots in poor countries. Many countries (incl. India) have banned export of Rice in 2008.
Urad(?) Dal: Up 70%
Potatoes: Up 30%
Onions: Up 100%
Oil: Up 30%
Cooking gas: Up 25%
What's a restaurant owner to do? Raise prices by ~40% and risk losing customers, or shrink size by 40% and invent new ways/names of marketing it?
M. Nam
What's in a name right? Bigsize or Smallsize, if you are ever in Gujarat don's ask for "Dosa'. They will bring you an old man. In Gujarati they are called "Dhonsaa". Believe it or not, Abhi likes it with 'ketchup and sour cream'. Speaking about "Madrasi' Vs. "South Asian", I bet even now most Gujaratis think anyone from South or Southeast of Bombay is a "Madrasi". I kid you not.
29 · Yo Dad said
In or out of context, this will not help Abhi's dating prospects.
Sigh, you have made this pregnant woman crave for a masala dosai right now!
I will have to wait until Sunday, to get a fine sample from the local temple. :) (food that I myself make no longer looks appetizing or is edible).
Reg Madrasi - yes, anyone south of the Vindhyas is considered a Madarasi....what I don't like is the condescending tone associated with "Are you a Madarasi?". Also, people from the North do not seem to realize that that there are FOUR states in the south, each quite different from the other!
that size is not that uncommon!
it totally depends on the size of the thava-- that's how we have them at home, about as big as the length of the plate with lots of alugade-iruli palya (potatoes and onions) and chutney. it makes seconds or thirds not so guilt-inducing.
yeaaahh kannadigas!! that dosa (and in colloquial kannada we pronounce it "do-say," or at least in my house)picture is now making me hungry 3000 mi from home.
As the photographer and consumer of the mini-dosa in question, let me set a couple of facts straight:
1. It was an all-you-can-eat lunch buffet - I could easily have eaten the equivalent of a full-size dosa in mini-dosas (and I'm seriously considering doing so today)
2. The plate pictured was my second run at the buffet (the first contained saag paneer, chicken tikka, a dosa, rice and another vegetable curry)
On the opinion side, I will weigh in as in favor of both mini-dosas and mini-bagels for more or less the same reason: better ratio of yummy outer layer (crepe or crust) to doughy/mushy innner filling. It's like preferring skinny fries to thicker ones - you get more fried surface area per unit of potato.
Happy Vasakhi everybody.
Let me come to Abhi's rescue by quoting the last sentence of this comment.
The rise of commodity prices is largely due to the STUPID ethenol policy put in by Dubya. I mean is that anything that this government can do right? They have completely messed up the agricultural market of the whole world by this stupid ethenol idea.
This is the main reason why I am hoping that the Dems come into power in '09. People are literally starving to death due to the stupid policy of this government.
I know that the ethanol policy is a contributing factor, but I don't know how much is due to that alone. There have been droughts for several years in Australia, for example, and increased demand from China and India. I haven't seen an analysis that talks about the relative weight of different factors though.
Sadly, ethanol policy has widespread support - it is a huge subsidy to farmers and it keeps various energy factions happy on the left and the right.
Australian drought (and Ukrainian shortfall) is a contributing factor in wheat problems, but if you just look at the acerage that are planting corn now as opposed to before the stupid policy of ethenol, you will see a rise of almost 30 to 40% (not totally sure about exact numbers, but what I am saying is a conservative estimate). The extra production of corn has caused prices of Potash and other fertilizers to more than double.
Dubya himself admitted recently about rising food prices, but I dont think any change is possible until the leadership in whitehouse changes.
This is EXTREMELY serious situation, people have started rioting in poor nations for food.As reported situation in Pakistan and case of food riot in Yemen . I read reports of starvation deaths increasing in India also.
RC: >>The rise of commodity prices is largely due to the STUPID ethenol policy put in by Dubya..completely messed up the agricultural market of the whole world
The Ethanol scam is responsible for the high corn prices in North America (+200%), but it cannot be attributed to high rice prices in Vietnam.
Two things which have caused high commodity prices:
1. Fiat currency freed from Gold standard: US has to print a ton of dollars (the currency in which commodity prices are quoted around the world) to sneak out of the excessive debt as well as to pay for the entitlement programs created by previous administrations (like Social Security, Medicare etc etc). This forces other countries to print more of their currencies. More paper money chasing fewer (point #2) commodities = higher prices.
2. Standard of living in China, India, and most of Asia, Latin America is shooting up. They are consuming more nutritional food with their discretionary income. An extra billion strong middle class wants McMansions, McDonalds and two-car garages. All in a span of six or seven years.
Honey, the economy shrunk the dosa.
M. Nam
Please tell me you didn't, on this oh-so-erudite, prejudice-aware, worldly wise, culturally sensitive blog, use the word "Madrasi"? Please? I don't want to kill any more.
Hi,
Dosa is dosa it goes well with SAMBAR& CHETNI nothing else mind you I am not a madrasi
www.material-spirutial.info
I feel like I've had small dosai in Karnataka before. The pictured ones seem 2-bite sized, those were probably four. I think it's a good idea for an appetizer.
In Maharashtra-Konkan, the unfermented but related food is called dhirdee/ghavan/ambolee.
There are Udipi restaurants all over western India that used to serve strictly the dosa, the vada, the idli.
But recently, i sadly noticed a lot of varation . Pizza, sandwiches, paneer bhurji, it reminds of me of diner menus. All permutations and combinations. Oh! And those ac-mezannine sections that remind of "being john malkovich".
I remember eating my first dosa because we were trying to mask the smell of cigarettes. Being catlick and all, i could not believe that this dish cooked and served cheap in a chaotic place (think jangling thalis, paper thin aluminum silver,smoke, incense) 50 yards from my home could taste so exotic (ok i said it).
Is food from TN not known as Madrasi? I don't use it as a generic term, but I've only ever eaten dosas at restaurants that were very explicitly linked to TN. My first dosa, back when we had to drive a long way to find one, was at a Madras Woodlands in Delhi. Later I used to eat at Madras Mahal in NYC. Etc. Can the word not be used in a narrow sense at all? I crossed it out b/c it was getting objections, but I had thought as long as it wasn't used as a catch all phase, it was OK. And until these comments, I hadn't realized that dosas are served across South India as a whole.
Manvantara :
The current generation doesn't use the word 'Madarasi' anymore. I guess the exodus of young people to work in the IT sector (Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Mysore) has something to do with it.
On the flip side, I've heard a lot of South Indians use the word "Punjabi" or "Punjus" when talking about North Indians in general. UP, Bihar, Rajasthan, Delhi, Himachal, Harayana, Jammu-Kashmir etc are all clubbed together !
that dosa looks only slightly small (and maybe not even, depending on the household) for a homemade dosa. i'm not a big fan of the large paper dosas - too crispy to eat w/ chutney/sambar, and they always get cold by the time you even make it halfway through the dosa. i def. prefer the homemade variety - fresher and you can have more alternatives - e.g. my favourite, godhumai (wheat) dosai :)
Re:#44: Is food from TN not known as Madrasi?
No, food from TN is known as "Tamil food" or "Tamizh food". :)
As I mentioned earlier, "Madarasi" is the term that North Indians (anyone north of the Vindhyas) give South Indians (anyone south of the Vindhyas). Also, the term always had a condescending tone whenever I heard it from someone in the North. I think it is this condescending tone that irritates the heck out of us south Indians whenever we hear the term!
Back when I was doing my M.S. at a university in the mid-west, there was one weekend when the Indian Students Association was going to screen a movie - a Hindi movie and I asked if it had subtitles, which surprised everyone, since desis assumed that EVERYone knows and understands Hindi. I can read, write, understand but have not been exposed to movies and miss out the little dialogues/jokes. There was this one person from Orissa who could not believe that I did not know Hindi and kept asking me about it and then, when she said: "None of you Madarasis know any Hindi, then?" really annoyed me!
My husband has a different story to tell - he is from Bangalore and has a last name that does not betray where he is from. On his very first job, (he was a software salesman), he had to go to Delhi, to meet some government officials. He had taken out a group to dinner and the topic was about their seniors/bosses, and the complaints he heard was about how "the Madarasis come here and take away our jobs"! :)
Ennis - People from my parents' generation typically use the word "Madrasi" when referring to anyone from TN, Andhra, Karnataka or Kerala, but this is increasingly rarer these days.
IMO, (one of the) reason for this is the map of pre-partion India, where the Madras Presidency (together with Hyderabad) covered the whole of South India. http://scnc.ukzn.ac.za/doc/SHIP/MAP.html
Reg #45: On the flip side, I've heard a lot of South Indians use the word "Punjabi" or "Punjus" when talking about North Indians in general. UP, Bihar, Rajasthan, Delhi, Himachal, Harayana, Jammu-Kashmir etc are all clubbed together !
Oh no, we south Indians know ALL about the North! Teeheehee! :D
Seriously, though, I have heard my friends only say "North Indian" or "Northie" while referring to someone from the North. (and I must note here - for us, anyone outside the four southern states is a north Indian and so I was surprised to hear about riots in Bombay against the "North Indians" -- poor people from Bihar, for instance).
49 · Manvantara said
I agree. I have never heard the term Punjabi for North Indians. At least in TN.
49 · Manvantara said
I've heard the 'punjabi' tag being applied to North Indians a lot of times. My point is that this 'ignorance' is present pretty much everywhere, be it in the North or in the South.
This is increasingly common in the IT cities of South India, where 'Northies' are sometimes accused of the same. Prejudice is widespread.
From what i recall.
Punjabi was generic for Northern Indian food esp. non-veg. Never used to refer to people. "Bihari", on the other hand, had a whole different connotation, although it was used very often with hostel mates who thought all Goans were "beudas" :-)
Damn, where can one get a "consistently" good dosa in l.a?
which restaurant in davis square was this? I hope it's not the same one we all had to boycott a while back because of feeling unwelcome?
on the north-south issue, many people from different parts of the south are prob. guilty of the same thing as labeling all people from the southern states just 'south' indian. for example, maharahstrians do not consider themselves north indian (and depending on whom you ask, they even consider themselves a part of southern india) but because they live just north of karnataka, most people from the south would consider them north indians.
..i totally agree. who in tn calls them punjabi?
even while being chased by pathan suit wearin funny talkin north indian money lenders on bicyles, or while teasing the lascivious-marwadi-munchkins in the sowkarpet(s), we madrasis always take care to call them by their proper name... seth, or sethji, or when you get to know their real names-natwarlal.
Diva
namaskar servce was also ... *makes grunting sound* quite meh ... the tibetan resto across the street called martsa has marginally better service tho.
The term "South Indian" for a person from the south of India is a fact, a geographical inevitability. A convenience I can live with. The problem is with the word "Madrasi", word used by North Indians, often insultingly, to refer to South Indians.
Actually, Northies in Bangalore aren't accused of stealing jobs. They're accused of being crass, money-minded, loud and expecting everybody to speak in Hindi. Prejudice is widespread *and* multifarious.
Sorry Manvantara, I just saw your comment, you put "Madrasi" in context much better than I did.
Where is India's Mason-Dixie line and what is it called?
61 · Neale said
the vindhayas are usually thought of as the great divide.
also: the madrasis marry their uncles much like the red-necks.
59 · Minkey Chief said
Interesting you should say that Minkey Chief... A friend who just returned from a visit to Bangalore told me of an auto driver who practically wept for joy because she spoke Kannada. Considering that Bangalore's auto drivers are made entirely of old leather and rusted nails, it becomes a rather poignant social comment.
have you tried "cocktail" idlis? that's what the 'kitty' party circuit calls them - they're cute, if rather pointless as the maza of the idli is in their soaking of the sambar juices...
Cocktail idlis are very very nice when they're stuffed, with minced meat for instance :)
"Madrasi" is funny, given that even Madras doesn't exist anymore. I don't know how something from Chennai would be referred now. Chennaie?
Being called a "Madrasi" would offend a lot of Telugus, since the separate state (and identity) required hard fight and sacrifice of a life. It is as much fun as being called a "paki" if you are an Indian - derogatory and untrue.
Dosa is common cuisine for all rice-growing states. Small dosas are traditional ones. Large dosas were introduced just to attract people to restaurants. Family dosa was fun and exciting compared to home-made small dosas. Now, the small dosa trend sounds like going back to roots. ;)
40 · NANDKISHORE said
gee, that was so meta. a dosa is a dosa is a dosa. well done! to think that i missed the subtle gertrude stein reference.
59 · Minkey Chief said
That's even worse.
62 · portmanteau said
You forgot that we're also born knowing how to play the Indian banjo or fiddle, drive broken-down cars (except they're Premier Padminis and not pick-ups) and wear wifebeaters in public.
OK, a certain amount of historical perspective seems to be missing from the discussion here. Let's beat up on prejudice in any form, especially ethno-geographic, linguistic or racial. But let's not completely forget history.
There really was a place called Madras once upon a time (in India). It started off as a 'Presidency' under the British administration. And the Presidency was really large. It included most of what is today Tamil Nadu, parts of what are today Andhra Pradesh, some northern districts of what is now Karnataka, as well as some areas that are now in Kerala. By colonial cartographic magic, the boundaries of Madras Presidency denied both the 'princely state' of Mysore and the 'princely state' of Hyderabad access to the coast, denied a hinterland to the princely state of Travancore, and prevented the three from sharing any boundaries! It was, in short, really huge.
Anyway, the result was that the ancestors of many people who are now Keralites, Karnatakans (to invent an adjective) and Andhras were once in Madras Presidency, and thus 'Madrasis' in the colonial usage. In addition there were people who are now in Tamil Nadu. So that is how 'all South Indians' came to be called 'Madrasis', during the colonial regime, a usage that survived, it seems, even longer in the diaspora, though of course diaspora are excused from detailed historical knowledge of the home country :)
There was also a state called 'Madras' till sometime in the early 1970s, and a city called Madras till sometime in the 1980s. So 'Madrasi' could legitimately apply to someone from those geographical entities, and no offence could be meant.
There is still a place called Madras in Oregon, as I once noted in another comment on SM.
There's a good reason why many S.Indians (SI) refer to NI as "Punjabis". The reason is that many NI identify themselves as being Punjabis even when they are not! I can give you some examples: I knew a guy surnamed as "Gupta", and he identified himself as being a Punjabi. However, behind close doors, without telling me that his family was from the UP, he'd lament on the "UP bhaya" perception inherent in all Indians.
Another case: I was at an Indian friend's wedding 4 years ago, and at my table were 2 American-born NI kids. The girl was a 21 year old girl surnamed as "Singh", but she was Hindu. The boy was an American born 'Uttar Pradeshi' as well, and the 2 were family friends. I remember that this girl was teaching/convincing him that they were Punjabis, and this boy, who was like 12, was confused, and he told her that both of their family was from UP and not Punjabi. For some reason, this girl really didn't want to be identified as a UP girl, but as a Punjabi, and she was trying to convince that young boy the same thing.
Finally, I've noticed that a Uttar Pradeshi is happy with being labeled as a Punjabi, and from my 2 examples above, they even seem to advocate this. This is especially true amongst people from Delhi (aka "Doabi"), as even the people who've had nothing to do with Punjab in historical times all of a sudden claim that they are Punjabis.
This is because all NI films/Bollywood have Punjabi actors/actresses playing the rolls of Punjabis. Even the light-skinned SIs, like Ash Rai, plays a "Grewal" (Jatt Sikh Punjabi), but none of her rolls allow her to play a "Nayyar" or a "Reddy". So, implicitly, the movie industry will have us believe that being a UP is not good enough and SI is surely not good enough.
Oh yeah, if you read the Wikipedia article on Gujarat or of the castes within Gujarat, you'll get the impression that they, too, are dying to be included into the Punjabi/Scythian/Georgian/Kazakhstan fold. I'm not kidding you one bit. They try and create a common link between themselves and Punjabis, but they don't want to include the possibility that they have *GASP* Dravidian genetics.
45 · brown_dbd said
On the flip side, I've heard a lot of South Indians use the word "Punjabi" or "Punjus" when talking about North Indians in general. UP, Bihar, Rajasthan, Delhi, Himachal, Harayana, Jammu-Kashmir etc are all clubbed together !
62 · portmanteau said
At least we don't kill baby girls and try to become a homo erotic society. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Or is there?
Actually, Madras state was renamed Tamilnadu in late 60s and Madras city was renamed in late 90s. Other than that what you said is right. There are valid reasons for South Indians to be called "Madrasis" by the North Indians (hangover from colonial times).
The reason why people are offended by the usage is because (I suspect) of the portrayal of "Madrasis" in Hindi movies / Bollywood of yesteryears.
Wow, that was so meta-meta. To not only notice a subtle reference, but make bloody well sure that we noticed you notice. To think I missed the subtle transfer of glory.
72 · Sil said
ok, i was just kidding. there is this tendency to reduce every cultural practice or reference to its american equivalent; however, much of the valence is, of course, lost in translation.
i do, however, thank shiva everyday that the love of my life doesn't have a female cross-cousin ;)
Just as there are valid reasons for Indians to be called Subjects of Her Majesty?
74 · The G-Man said
Wow, that was so meta-meta. To not only notice a subtle reference, but make bloody well sure that we noticed you notice. To think I missed the subtle transfer of glory.
son, i let my parents know at every opportunity that my liberal arts education wasn't a complete vaste of time. cuz i classy like that.
Both groups marry their first cousins. I'm not sure about South Indians marrying their uncles.
72 · Sil said
At least we don't kill baby girls and try to become a homo erotic society. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Or is there?
..untrue! we madrasis have an american style call option to marry our neices (option price ~ zero, maybe one plate betelnut leaves, and some bajjis+bananas)..that we evaluate constantly against our portfolios on iyengarmatrimony.com and iyerbootycalls.org.
port- don't dismiss lightly the complex evolutionary processes that have gone towards making these norms. There is a reason for the suave, hyper-smug tambram male-and you can usually find its photo in the folds of his lungi..
Re #62: also: the madrasis marry their uncles much like the red-necks
--that was quite an uncalled for comment. The discussion was about the word "Madrasi" and why that makes some of us (Madrasis) squirm a bit (and I explained it was because there was a tone of derision/condescension all the times I have heard it from a north Indian).
With comment #70, chachaji has explained why the term "Madrasi" was used to mean everyone from the south (though that does not explain the condescension). I have numerous south Indian friends who grew up in the north and were made fun of for being from the south, with statements like "the dark one from the south", for instance.
I don't think there is any need to start throwing any mud here.
How about a male cross-dresssing-cousin ;)
70 · chachaji said
Er, so...? Are we validating the term Madrasi then (derogatory, irrelevant and unpopular though it may be)?
Bloody supercilious Iyengars thinking that their mating is worth a .com profit label, whereas Iyers have to resort to trolling in the freegan, dumpster-diving non-profit world.
79 · dingchak said
yeah, so some tamil females (nieces) do marry their uncles, assuming the option is exercised.
. dc, you will be happy to know that i heartily appreciate the complex evolutionary processes that have produced what lies beneath the folds of certain tambram lungis :)Hang down your head Portmanteau, hand down your head and cry. You inflicted humour on the take-themselves-uber-serious and now you're bound to die.
I think the question is, from when the term turned derogatory. I don't think there is any harm in calling the people from the Madras state as "Madrasi".
Port-are you sure? what about male cousins? the bi-yengars of kerala are allowed to marry the first cousin of either sex- its an old madrasi tradition..wiki it.
80 · Manvantara said
manvantara, i humbly direct you to comment #75.
86 · Ponniyin Selvan said
Except there is no Madras state and hasn't been since the early 1970s*.
*Source: Comment no. 1970
No need to insinuate that we Madrasis are darkies.
Sorry that was comment no. 70
Rahul, LOL!
87 · dingchak said
dc, i'm hoping my fair settuponnu charms have ensnared him.
A Madrasi by any other name would taste as sweet, and, er, buttery.
Maybe he's just hoping you're indeed his long lost cousin, who was separated from him at birth right before the child marriage ceremony, and he yearns for his wonk-eyed Lalita Pawar Mrs. Gomes nanny to reunite the two of you by singing your favority lullaby/love-song.
..only if he's from an iyengar bakery..
Note: I'm not defending the folks who use "Madrasi" in derogatory terms.
Some habits are hard to change esp. with names. I know many people who still use Bombay, Madras and Calcutta instead of Mumbai, Chennai and Kokota and I'm sure people will be using Bangalore instead of Bengaluru for decades to come. It is possible that some folks still use "Madrasi" just like that.
Again, I suspect, the term turned derogatory with the portrayal of "madrasis" in the Hindi movies or with the anti-Hindi protests of the early 60s..
71 · boston_mahesh said
Nayyars and Reddies can be fat too!
Finally, I've noticed that a Uttar Pradeshi is happy with being labeled as a Punjabi, and from my 2 examples above, they even seem to advocate this. This is especially true amongst people from Delhi (aka "Doabi"), as even the people who've had nothing to do with Punjab in historical times all of a sudden claim that they are Punjabis.
That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on SM. Btw, have you ever been to Delhi? New Delhi is majority Punjabi. Speaking of UP, I have NEVER heard anybody refer to themselves as Punjabis. People in Western UP are mostly jatts and they dont refer to themselves as Punjabis but as Jatts, Gujjurs whatever.
Right. He also said, in the second sentence of his comment:
It is not the term itself that should be the focus, but the underlying prejudice. You can bet the same prejudice will transfer itself to the geographically correct 'South Indian' or the linguistically exact 'Tamilian' if the underlying prejudice remains.
On a heartening note, the Governor of Tamil Nadu is a Sikh Punjabi, Thiru Surjit Singh Barnala.
Floridian, that sounds like Bush quoting JFK :P
95 · Rahul said
you may be right; he can be a kinky bastard.
I don't think "Madrasis" condone shrinkage.
92 · bess said
Oh dear... my subtle sense of humour has quite passed you by. Is that why you're called Bess, because you always came last?
My Potohari-Pakistani father refers to South Indians as either Malabaries or Madrasis. This has to be a historical legacy because the man doesn't have a mean bone in his body.
I love dosas ...
Which is I guess plays a part in why I love South Indian/Sri Lankan women .. hehe
and I've had "mini" homemade dosas before. Didn't think it was an innovation!
I've seen many UP people identifying themselves as being Punjabi. Here in Boston, a NI will obfuscate their origins and simply state they are from Delhi. Believe me, I know the differences between Delhi/NewDelhi. I realize that ND had a lot of "real" Punjabis from Pakistan in '47. However, "Guptas" are not Punjabis and neither are Hindu "Singhs". They should be proud of whom they are.
Now, to be fair to the good people of UP, I know a girl here surnamed as "Mishra", and we all know that this is a Bihari/Orissan name. Yet, she's very ashamed of this fact, and she claims that she's not Bihari/Orissan. Instead, she's a Uttar Pradeshi. Her very mature younger brother has no problem identifying himself as a Bihari, and he's proud of his "law-breaker" persona, even though he's a sweet, smart, and cultured man.
My point is: No matter what state/language/ethnic demonym that we are, we should be proud of who we are. We shouldn't be ashamed of our darkness, and we shouldn't allow ourselves to be divided. Moreover, we should try to be more culturally sensitive. I do get the feeling that North Indians are more culturally sensitive towards Pakistanis than they are to South Indians.
99 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said
Another case: I was at an Indian friend's wedding 4 years ago, and at my table were 2 American-born NI kids. The girl was a 21 year old girl surnamed as "Singh", but she was Hindu. The boy was an American born 'Uttar Pradeshi' as well, and the 2 were family friends. I remember that this girl was teaching/convincing him that they were Punjabis, and this boy, who was like 12, was confused, and he told her that both of their family was from UP and not Punjabi. For some reason, this girl really didn't want to be identified as a UP girl, but as a Punjabi, and she was trying to convince that young boy the same thing.
Finally, I've noticed that a Uttar Pradeshi is happy with being labeled as a Punjabi, and from my 2 examples above, they even seem to advocate this. This is especially true amongst people from Delhi (aka "Doabi"), as even the people who've had nothing to do with Punjab in historical times all of a sudden claim that they are Punjabis.
This is because all NI films/Bollywood have Punjabi actors/actresses playing the rolls of Punjabis. Even the light-skinned SIs, like Ash Rai, plays a "Grewal" (Jatt Sikh Punjabi), but none of her rolls allow her to play a "Nayyar" or a "Reddy". So, implicitly, the movie industry will have us believe that being a UP is not good enough and SI is surely not good enough.
Oh yeah, if you read the Wikipedia article on Gujarat or of the castes within Gujarat, you'll get the impression that they, too, are dying to be included into the Punjabi/Scythian/Georgian/Kazakhstan fold. I'm not kidding you one bit. They try and create a common link between themselves and Punjabis, but they don't want to include the possibility that they have *GASP* Dravidian genetics.
That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on SM. Btw, have you ever been to Delhi? New Delhi is majority Punjabi. Speaking of UP, I have NEVER heard anybody refer to themselves as Punjabis. People in Western UP are mostly jatts and they dont refer to themselves as Punjabis but as Jatts, Gujjurs whatever.
I've always thought that a lot of non-Punjabi North Indians looked down on Punjabis for being loud, unsophisticated and "country"? Sorta like how New Yorkers feel about the South...but now they're pretending to be them?
Say it ain't so. Be you!
Oh. You didn't tell me your parents are reading. Sorry uncle and aunty. I'll play nicely. :)
Boston Mahesh,
I think once again the issue may be the people in your immediate circle and how they identify themselves. I have friends who are Gupta and whose families are from Punjab and they identify themselves as Punjabis and I don't think there is antyhing wrong with that.
I have a lot of family from UP; Muradabad, Agra, Merrut, Barreily, Lucknow and I can go on and I have never met people from UP who would rather identify themselves as Punjabis for reasons you state.
Deemz,
I have heard Malbari being used in a lot of Pakistani plays and thought it applied to people from Hyderabad, thanks for the perspective.
109 · umber desi said
Errr... the city of Hyderabad in in the state of Andhra Pradesh is in the south of India. So Deemz's point didn't really give you a change in perspective. The Malabar coast is in Kerala and you need to try and call all Malayalis Malabaris and see what happens then!
105 · deemz said
The older generation is has complete diplomatic immunity. They had a reason. The venom being flung around generously here is for the benefit of the Wikipedia generation.
I prefer to piss off North Indians by being dumb and calling them Biharis. I recommend all pissed off "Madrasis" to start calling North Indians "Biharis". That would be major fun.
I think once again the issue may be the people in your immediate circle and how they identify themselves. I have friends who are Gupta and whose families are from Punjab and they identify themselves as Punjabis and I don't think there is antyhing wrong with that.
I have a lot of family from UP; Muradabad, Agra, Merrut, Barreily, Lucknow and I can go on and I have never met people from UP who would rather identify themselves as Punjabis for reasons you state.
I agree. Boston_Mahesh hangs out with weird people. Also I have a lot of family in UP/Delhi and no Urdu speaking Muslim would ever refer to himself as a Punjabi. Punjabis are a source of derision and ridicule in the Urdu speaking community generally and are considered uncouth and uncultured. That attitude of course is unhealthy and wrong but is a far cry from Mahesh's claim about people from UP referring to themselves as Punjabis.
G-Man,
I think you should check this before about Hyderabad and Pakistan, I conceded I was wrong about my understanding of the usage of Malabari, here is how Malabari is used in Pakistan.
You can call me whatever you want, just don't call me late for dinner.
114 · umber desi