How do we tell when a departure from beloved tradition is actually progress?

Maybe when Punjoos stop calling it "Madrasi" cooking.

First place I ever had a dosa was in India, in a restaurant called Madras Woodlands. They called it Madrasi cooking then. Why is it eaten across the entire region? Do all South Indians eat dosas?

Funny you should mention this. I read an article in today's Washinton Post entitled "The Incredible Shrinking Restaurant Portion".

That may not be exactly what you're talking about, but it's still interesting. :)

"The Incredible Shrinking Restaurant Portion".

so... i guess it wasnt a tangent after all. the pic is deep. tres deep.

How do we tell when a departure from beloved tradition is actually progress?

If it tastes good, it's progress.

Sure, traditional dosa is large, and large-sized dosa is the archtype.

However, more than often, dosas are made small for many reasons - one of them is the size of thawa (frying flat pan). Often, people in their homes do not have thawa to make a large dosa, and is the size of an uthapam or little larger than paratha.

However, more than often, dosas are made small for many reasons - one of them is the size of thawa (frying flat pan). Often, people in their homes do not have thawa to make a large dosa, and is the size of an uthapam or little larger than paratha.

That's how my mother makes them. A bit thicker than a paper dosa and smaller. She was told this was home style. Still, how about a paper dosa the size of a green pepper slice or a drumstick?

the dosai, or the grain product, is increasingly a smaller portion of the diet as more people are adding non-vegetarian products to their meal.

We don't feed the chicken grain products any more. They're raised on a pure diet of soylent green.

Why is it eaten across the entire region? Do all South Indians eat dosas?

Dosas are eaten across all of South India, and additionally different parts have their own modifications and interpretations, such as the Mysore Masala Dosa in Mysore (Karnataka), the Peserattu in Andhra Pradesh, and a little more distant, the adai (which has a different ratio of lentils to rice) in Kerala. You can see the different names given to this dish across various regions in India here. As you can see, it is called Dosa (or a phonetically extremely close variant of it) in all the Southern states.

How do we tell when a departure from beloved tradition is actually progress?

When it's breakfast to go.

well, i had the lunch buffet at chola in nyc a month or two ago... and they brought each of us a mini dosa with the usual potato and onion filling as an appetizer. i thought it was a great idea...
yum yum yum!

Idli (sp?) all the way! :D

ahh.. tonight i had homemade dosas..from an auntie visiting from bangalore... yummmy... beats a restaurant any day of the week....

and as for bagelfuls... looks like a twinkie...
i'd rather have a pretzel stuffed with mustard :)
good times.

'Shrunken' dosas are are pretty common in India. I've lived my entire life in North India, and have seen lots of street-vendors ("thele-waalas") and roadside eateries ("dhabas") selling such pint sized dosas. When I was a kid, I used to think that they made this baby dosa because being North Indians, they didn't know how to make a proper dosa :) Of course, full-sized dosas are also pretty common all across the North.

Another example of a departure from beloved tradition is the rasam seafood soup.
(I had never seen "rasam' and "seafood" together in India.)
I first had rasam seafood soup at the Legal Seafood restaurant
and since then have reverse engineered it (quite easy) and offered
to friends, who like it very much.

We've had a skin color post, then a dating-marriage post, now a small dosa post. what is it? ratings week?

13 · Chitta said

Another example of a departure from beloved tradition is the rasam seafood soup

Damn! I can digest baby-idlis..not these baby dosas. cry my beloved MTR mangalore dosai mix.

gappa:

they brought each of us a mini dosa with the usual potato and onion filling as an appetizer.

Yay! dosa canapes. Dosa is really too good to not be diversified.
In Brittany, France, the crepes/galettes are really just like dosa in taste and texture. I once had one with potato inside and guess what I was thinking.

rahul:

the different names given to this dish across various regions in India

Heh Heh. On the topic of innovation. I use the dose batter to make crepes for my kids and fill them with strawberries/bananas/honey/nuts and Nutella. They love it. Much better than using white flour and eggs(vegetarian mom and all that...)

Dosas at home are usually smaller than the ones served at restaurants.

Dosas are eaten across all of South India, and additionally different parts have their own modifications and interpretations, such as the Mysore Masala Dosa in Mysore (Karnataka), the Peserattu in Andhra Pradesh, and a little more distant, the adai (which has a different ratio of lentils to rice) in Kerala. You can see the different names given to this dish across various regions in India here.

I dunno if Mysore Masala Dosa is genuinely from Mysore. I remember getting puzzled looks when asking for it there.

Mini dosas are crisper, just the way I like 'em. Plus, it's the buffet. Get over it. :P

I'll have to occupy the contrarian couch this time and say I'd really like to quote Triumph the Comic Insult Dog on this one, "These little dosas are nice...for me to poop on!"

Perhaps it's just because the only time I eat dosa it's a big event (family meal, going out to eat), but I can't envision myself eating an amount not guaranteed to give my stomach pause.

It's not the size that counts, it's what it comes with. And whoever bought that plate is getting ROBBED.

One emaciated chicken leg and cross-sections of capsicum and cucumber don't even begin to compare to three varieties of chutney (tomato, coconut, and onion, if you please) and sambar!

I dunno if Mysore Masala Dosa is genuinely from Mysore. I remember getting puzzled looks when asking for it there.

I think its from a place called Udipi in Karnataka, South Indian restaurants in Mumbai are called Udipi restuarants.

22 · ptr_vivek said

It's not the size that counts, it's what it comes with. And whoever bought that plate is getting ROBBED.

Since it was a buffet, the accompaniments were probably chosen by the diner... Maybe there was potato inside it.

Ennis: How do we tell when a departure from beloved tradition is actually progress?

That's easy. If it becomes a hit, it is progress. If it fails, it was somebody's stupid idea.

The first time I heard of and ate dosa was probably in the mid-Sixties when it was just starting to catch on in North India. Back then, even Connaught Place in Delhi had only one dosa outlet - Madras Coffee House on the second floor. It wasn't more than a few years after its first appearance in North India that dosas took the region by storm. It was the most sensible thing to eat when you had exactly two bucks (and I do mean rupees) in your pocket and somehow had to manage both a lunch and a bus ride.

One of my happiest memories of growing up in India was when our dad would take us all to our local dosa place, Bharat Coffee House, on Sunday mornings for some quality family time and equally high quality dosas, idlis and wadas. The meal would be followed by "pulled" coffee served in stainless steel glasses, and despite our tender age, he would allow us the occasional glass of caffeine.

Dosas in those days, though not quite as snack-size as in Ennis's post, were still fairly small. I remember we always ate idli and wada to round off a dosa meal. The gigantic dosas were a much later innovation, when restaurant owners began to understand the in-store marketing value of eye appeal. Who says supersizing is a peculiarly American phenomenon?

It is still possible to find chapati size dosas in South India. It is no different than finding small, unassuming pizzas in Italy. When it is your native cuisine, you serve it every which way. Let others supersize and glorify it.

Good post, Ennis. Thanks for starting my Monday morning with a walk down the memory "gulley" of India in search of the perfect dosa.

24 · Gargoyle said

Since it was a buffet...

Righto. Well that'll teach me to finish my coffee before reading anything in the morning.

Are these reasonable innovations or travesties wrought by American commerce on the fine traditions of Madrasi South Indian cooking?

Sizes of almost all prepared foods are shrinking, thanks to the high commodity prices around the world.

Let's consider the ingredients of masala dosa:

Rice: Up 60% in the last couple of years. Some riots in poor countries. Many countries (incl. India) have banned export of Rice in 2008.
Urad(?) Dal: Up 70%
Potatoes: Up 30%
Onions: Up 100%
Oil: Up 30%
Cooking gas: Up 25%

What's a restaurant owner to do? Raise prices by ~40% and risk losing customers, or shrink size by 40% and invent new ways/names of marketing it?

M. Nam

What's in a name right? Bigsize or Smallsize, if you are ever in Gujarat don's ask for "Dosa'. They will bring you an old man. In Gujarati they are called "Dhonsaa". Believe it or not, Abhi likes it with 'ketchup and sour cream'. Speaking about "Madrasi' Vs. "South Asian", I bet even now most Gujaratis think anyone from South or Southeast of Bombay is a "Madrasi". I kid you not.

29 · Yo Dad said

Believe it or not, Abhi likes it with 'ketchup and sour cream'.

Sigh, you have made this pregnant woman crave for a masala dosai right now!
I will have to wait until Sunday, to get a fine sample from the local temple. :) (food that I myself make no longer looks appetizing or is edible).

Reg Madrasi - yes, anyone south of the Vindhyas is considered a Madarasi....what I don't like is the condescending tone associated with "Are you a Madarasi?". Also, people from the North do not seem to realize that that there are FOUR states in the south, each quite different from the other!

that size is not that uncommon!

it totally depends on the size of the thava-- that's how we have them at home, about as big as the length of the plate with lots of alugade-iruli palya (potatoes and onions) and chutney. it makes seconds or thirds not so guilt-inducing.

yeaaahh kannadigas!! that dosa (and in colloquial kannada we pronounce it "do-say," or at least in my house)picture is now making me hungry 3000 mi from home.

As the photographer and consumer of the mini-dosa in question, let me set a couple of facts straight:

1. It was an all-you-can-eat lunch buffet - I could easily have eaten the equivalent of a full-size dosa in mini-dosas (and I'm seriously considering doing so today)
2. The plate pictured was my second run at the buffet (the first contained saag paneer, chicken tikka, a dosa, rice and another vegetable curry)

On the opinion side, I will weigh in as in favor of both mini-dosas and mini-bagels for more or less the same reason: better ratio of yummy outer layer (crepe or crust) to doughy/mushy innner filling. It's like preferring skinny fries to thicker ones - you get more fried surface area per unit of potato.

Happy Vasakhi everybody.

In or out of context, this will not help Abhi's dating prospects.

Let me come to Abhi's rescue by quoting the last sentence of this comment.

Sizes of almost all prepared foods are shrinking, thanks to the high commodity prices around the world.

The rise of commodity prices is largely due to the STUPID ethenol policy put in by Dubya. I mean is that anything that this government can do right? They have completely messed up the agricultural market of the whole world by this stupid ethenol idea.

This is the main reason why I am hoping that the Dems come into power in '09. People are literally starving to death due to the stupid policy of this government.

The rise of commodity prices is largely due to the STUPID ethenol policy put in by Dubya.

I know that the ethanol policy is a contributing factor, but I don't know how much is due to that alone. There have been droughts for several years in Australia, for example, and increased demand from China and India. I haven't seen an analysis that talks about the relative weight of different factors though.

Sadly, ethanol policy has widespread support - it is a huge subsidy to farmers and it keeps various energy factions happy on the left and the right.

Australian drought (and Ukrainian shortfall) is a contributing factor in wheat problems, but if you just look at the acerage that are planting corn now as opposed to before the stupid policy of ethenol, you will see a rise of almost 30 to 40% (not totally sure about exact numbers, but what I am saying is a conservative estimate). The extra production of corn has caused prices of Potash and other fertilizers to more than double.

Dubya himself admitted recently about rising food prices, but I dont think any change is possible until the leadership in whitehouse changes.

This is EXTREMELY serious situation, people have started rioting in poor nations for food.As reported situation in Pakistan and case of food riot in Yemen . I read reports of starvation deaths increasing in India also.

RC: >>The rise of commodity prices is largely due to the STUPID ethenol policy put in by Dubya..completely messed up the agricultural market of the whole world

The Ethanol scam is responsible for the high corn prices in North America (+200%), but it cannot be attributed to high rice prices in Vietnam.

Two things which have caused high commodity prices:

1. Fiat currency freed from Gold standard: US has to print a ton of dollars (the currency in which commodity prices are quoted around the world) to sneak out of the excessive debt as well as to pay for the entitlement programs created by previous administrations (like Social Security, Medicare etc etc). This forces other countries to print more of their currencies. More paper money chasing fewer (point #2) commodities = higher prices.

2. Standard of living in China, India, and most of Asia, Latin America is shooting up. They are consuming more nutritional food with their discretionary income. An extra billion strong middle class wants McMansions, McDonalds and two-car garages. All in a span of six or seven years.

Honey, the economy shrunk the dosa.

M. Nam

Please tell me you didn't, on this oh-so-erudite, prejudice-aware, worldly wise, culturally sensitive blog, use the word "Madrasi"? Please? I don't want to kill any more.

Hi,
Dosa is dosa it goes well with SAMBAR& CHETNI nothing else mind you I am not a madrasi
www.material-spirutial.info

The Ethanol scam is responsible for the high corn prices in North America (+200%), but it cannot be attributed to high rice prices in Vietnam.

I feel like I've had small dosai in Karnataka before. The pictured ones seem 2-bite sized, those were probably four. I think it's a good idea for an appetizer.
In Maharashtra-Konkan, the unfermented but related food is called dhirdee/ghavan/ambolee.

There are Udipi restaurants all over western India that used to serve strictly the dosa, the vada, the idli.
But recently, i sadly noticed a lot of varation . Pizza, sandwiches, paneer bhurji, it reminds of me of diner menus. All permutations and combinations. Oh! And those ac-mezannine sections that remind of "being john malkovich".
I remember eating my first dosa because we were trying to mask the smell of cigarettes. Being catlick and all, i could not believe that this dish cooked and served cheap in a chaotic place (think jangling thalis, paper thin aluminum silver,smoke, incense) 50 yards from my home could taste so exotic (ok i said it).

Please tell me you didn't, on this oh-so-erudite, prejudice-aware, worldly wise, culturally sensitive blog, use the word "Madrasi"? Please? I don't want to kill any more.

Is food from TN not known as Madrasi? I don't use it as a generic term, but I've only ever eaten dosas at restaurants that were very explicitly linked to TN. My first dosa, back when we had to drive a long way to find one, was at a Madras Woodlands in Delhi. Later I used to eat at Madras Mahal in NYC. Etc. Can the word not be used in a narrow sense at all? I crossed it out b/c it was getting objections, but I had thought as long as it wasn't used as a catch all phase, it was OK. And until these comments, I hadn't realized that dosas are served across South India as a whole.

Manvantara :

Reg Madrasi - yes, anyone south of the Vindhyas is considered a Madarasi....what I don't like is the condescending tone associated with "Are you a Madarasi?". Also, people from the North do not seem to realize that that there are FOUR states in the south, each quite different from the other!

The current generation doesn't use the word 'Madarasi' anymore. I guess the exodus of young people to work in the IT sector (Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Mysore) has something to do with it.
On the flip side, I've heard a lot of South Indians use the word "Punjabi" or "Punjus" when talking about North Indians in general. UP, Bihar, Rajasthan, Delhi, Himachal, Harayana, Jammu-Kashmir etc are all clubbed together !

that dosa looks only slightly small (and maybe not even, depending on the household) for a homemade dosa. i'm not a big fan of the large paper dosas - too crispy to eat w/ chutney/sambar, and they always get cold by the time you even make it halfway through the dosa. i def. prefer the homemade variety - fresher and you can have more alternatives - e.g. my favourite, godhumai (wheat) dosai :)

Re:#44: Is food from TN not known as Madrasi?

No, food from TN is known as "Tamil food" or "Tamizh food". :)
As I mentioned earlier, "Madarasi" is the term that North Indians (anyone north of the Vindhyas) give South Indians (anyone south of the Vindhyas). Also, the term always had a condescending tone whenever I heard it from someone in the North. I think it is this condescending tone that irritates the heck out of us south Indians whenever we hear the term!

Back when I was doing my M.S. at a university in the mid-west, there was one weekend when the Indian Students Association was going to screen a movie - a Hindi movie and I asked if it had subtitles, which surprised everyone, since desis assumed that EVERYone knows and understands Hindi. I can read, write, understand but have not been exposed to movies and miss out the little dialogues/jokes. There was this one person from Orissa who could not believe that I did not know Hindi and kept asking me about it and then, when she said: "None of you Madarasis know any Hindi, then?" really annoyed me!

My husband has a different story to tell - he is from Bangalore and has a last name that does not betray where he is from. On his very first job, (he was a software salesman), he had to go to Delhi, to meet some government officials. He had taken out a group to dinner and the topic was about their seniors/bosses, and the complaints he heard was about how "the Madarasis come here and take away our jobs"! :)

Ennis - People from my parents' generation typically use the word "Madrasi" when referring to anyone from TN, Andhra, Karnataka or Kerala, but this is increasingly rarer these days.
IMO, (one of the) reason for this is the map of pre-partion India, where the Madras Presidency (together with Hyderabad) covered the whole of South India. http://scnc.ukzn.ac.za/doc/SHIP/MAP.html

Reg #45: On the flip side, I've heard a lot of South Indians use the word "Punjabi" or "Punjus" when talking about North Indians in general. UP, Bihar, Rajasthan, Delhi, Himachal, Harayana, Jammu-Kashmir etc are all clubbed together !

Oh no, we south Indians know ALL about the North! Teeheehee! :D

Seriously, though, I have heard my friends only say "North Indian" or "Northie" while referring to someone from the North. (and I must note here - for us, anyone outside the four southern states is a north Indian and so I was surprised to hear about riots in Bombay against the "North Indians" -- poor people from Bihar, for instance).

49 · Manvantara said

Seriously, though, I have heard my friends only say "North Indian" or "Northie" while referring to someone from the North. (and I must note here - for us, anyone outside the four southern states is a north Indian and so I was surprised to hear about riots in Bombay against the "North Indians" -- poor people from Bihar, for instance).

I agree. I have never heard the term Punjabi for North Indians. At least in TN.

49 · Manvantara said

Oh no, we south Indians know ALL about the North! Teeheehee! :D
Seriously, though, I have heard my friends only say "North Indian" or "Northie" while referring to someone from the North. (and I must note here - for us, anyone outside the four southern states is a north Indian and so I was surprised to hear about riots in Bombay against the "North Indians" -- poor people from Bihar, for instance).

I've heard the 'punjabi' tag being applied to North Indians a lot of times. My point is that this 'ignorance' is present pretty much everywhere, be it in the North or in the South.

He had taken out a group to dinner and the topic was about their seniors/bosses, and the complaints he heard was about how "the Madarasis come here and take away our jobs"! :)

This is increasingly common in the IT cities of South India, where 'Northies' are sometimes accused of the same. Prejudice is widespread.

From what i recall.

Punjabi was generic for Northern Indian food esp. non-veg. Never used to refer to people. "Bihari", on the other hand, had a whole different connotation, although it was used very often with hostel mates who thought all Goans were "beudas" :-)

Damn, where can one get a "consistently" good dosa in l.a?

which restaurant in davis square was this? I hope it's not the same one we all had to boycott a while back because of feeling unwelcome?

Damn, where can one get a "consistently" good dosa in l.a?

on the north-south issue, many people from different parts of the south are prob. guilty of the same thing as labeling all people from the southern states just 'south' indian. for example, maharahstrians do not consider themselves north indian (and depending on whom you ask, they even consider themselves a part of southern india) but because they live just north of karnataka, most people from the south would consider them north indians.

I have never heard the term Punjabi for North Indians. At least in TN.

..i totally agree. who in tn calls them punjabi?
even while being chased by pathan suit wearin funny talkin north indian money lenders on bicyles, or while teasing the lascivious-marwadi-munchkins in the sowkarpet(s), we madrasis always take care to call them by their proper name... seth, or sethji, or when you get to know their real names-natwarlal.

which restaurant in davis square was this? I hope it's not the same one we all had to boycott a while back because of feeling unwelcome?

Diva

which restaurant in davis square was this?

namaskar servce was also ... *makes grunting sound* quite meh ... the tibetan resto across the street called martsa has marginally better service tho.

on the north-south issue, many people from different parts of the south are prob. guilty of the same thing as labeling all people from the southern states just 'south' indian.

The term "South Indian" for a person from the south of India is a fact, a geographical inevitability. A convenience I can live with. The problem is with the word "Madrasi", word used by North Indians, often insultingly, to refer to South Indians.

This is increasingly common in the IT cities of South India, where 'Northies' are sometimes accused of the same. Prejudice is widespread.

Actually, Northies in Bangalore aren't accused of stealing jobs. They're accused of being crass, money-minded, loud and expecting everybody to speak in Hindi. Prejudice is widespread *and* multifarious.

Sorry Manvantara, I just saw your comment, you put "Madrasi" in context much better than I did.

Where is India's Mason-Dixie line and what is it called?

61 · Neale said

Where is India's Mason-Dixie line and what is it called?

the vindhayas are usually thought of as the great divide.
also: the madrasis marry their uncles much like the red-necks.

59 · Minkey Chief said

They're accused of being crass, money-minded, loud and expecting everybody to speak in Hindi. Prejudice is widespread *and* multifarious.

Interesting you should say that Minkey Chief... A friend who just returned from a visit to Bangalore told me of an auto driver who practically wept for joy because she spoke Kannada. Considering that Bangalore's auto drivers are made entirely of old leather and rusted nails, it becomes a rather poignant social comment.

have you tried "cocktail" idlis? that's what the 'kitty' party circuit calls them - they're cute, if rather pointless as the maza of the idli is in their soaking of the sambar juices...

Cocktail idlis are very very nice when they're stuffed, with minced meat for instance :)

"Madrasi" is funny, given that even Madras doesn't exist anymore. I don't know how something from Chennai would be referred now. Chennaie?

Being called a "Madrasi" would offend a lot of Telugus, since the separate state (and identity) required hard fight and sacrifice of a life. It is as much fun as being called a "paki" if you are an Indian - derogatory and untrue.

Dosa is common cuisine for all rice-growing states. Small dosas are traditional ones. Large dosas were introduced just to attract people to restaurants. Family dosa was fun and exciting compared to home-made small dosas. Now, the small dosa trend sounds like going back to roots. ;)

40 · NANDKISHORE said

Dosa is dosa

gee, that was so meta. a dosa is a dosa is a dosa. well done! to think that i missed the subtle gertrude stein reference.

59 · Minkey Chief said

Actually, Northies in Bangalore aren't accused of stealing jobs. They're accused of being crass, money-minded, loud and expecting everybody to speak in Hindi. Prejudice is widespread *and* multifarious.

That's even worse.

62 · portmanteau said

also: the madrasis marry their uncles much like the red-necks.

You forgot that we're also born knowing how to play the Indian banjo or fiddle, drive broken-down cars (except they're Premier Padminis and not pick-ups) and wear wifebeaters in public.

OK, a certain amount of historical perspective seems to be missing from the discussion here. Let's beat up on prejudice in any form, especially ethno-geographic, linguistic or racial. But let's not completely forget history.

There really was a place called Madras once upon a time (in India). It started off as a 'Presidency' under the British administration. And the Presidency was really large. It included most of what is today Tamil Nadu, parts of what are today Andhra Pradesh, some northern districts of what is now Karnataka, as well as some areas that are now in Kerala. By colonial cartographic magic, the boundaries of Madras Presidency denied both the 'princely state' of Mysore and the 'princely state' of Hyderabad access to the coast, denied a hinterland to the princely state of Travancore, and prevented the three from sharing any boundaries! It was, in short, really huge.

Anyway, the result was that the ancestors of many people who are now Keralites, Karnatakans (to invent an adjective) and Andhras were once in Madras Presidency, and thus 'Madrasis' in the colonial usage. In addition there were people who are now in Tamil Nadu. So that is how 'all South Indians' came to be called 'Madrasis', during the colonial regime, a usage that survived, it seems, even longer in the diaspora, though of course diaspora are excused from detailed historical knowledge of the home country :)

There was also a state called 'Madras' till sometime in the early 1970s, and a city called Madras till sometime in the 1980s. So 'Madrasi' could legitimately apply to someone from those geographical entities, and no offence could be meant.

There is still a place called Madras in Oregon, as I once noted in another comment on SM.

There's a good reason why many S.Indians (SI) refer to NI as "Punjabis". The reason is that many NI identify themselves as being Punjabis even when they are not! I can give you some examples: I knew a guy surnamed as "Gupta", and he identified himself as being a Punjabi. However, behind close doors, without telling me that his family was from the UP, he'd lament on the "UP bhaya" perception inherent in all Indians.

Another case: I was at an Indian friend's wedding 4 years ago, and at my table were 2 American-born NI kids. The girl was a 21 year old girl surnamed as "Singh", but she was Hindu. The boy was an American born 'Uttar Pradeshi' as well, and the 2 were family friends. I remember that this girl was teaching/convincing him that they were Punjabis, and this boy, who was like 12, was confused, and he told her that both of their family was from UP and not Punjabi. For some reason, this girl really didn't want to be identified as a UP girl, but as a Punjabi, and she was trying to convince that young boy the same thing.

Finally, I've noticed that a Uttar Pradeshi is happy with being labeled as a Punjabi, and from my 2 examples above, they even seem to advocate this. This is especially true amongst people from Delhi (aka "Doabi"), as even the people who've had nothing to do with Punjab in historical times all of a sudden claim that they are Punjabis.

This is because all NI films/Bollywood have Punjabi actors/actresses playing the rolls of Punjabis. Even the light-skinned SIs, like Ash Rai, plays a "Grewal" (Jatt Sikh Punjabi), but none of her rolls allow her to play a "Nayyar" or a "Reddy". So, implicitly, the movie industry will have us believe that being a UP is not good enough and SI is surely not good enough.

Oh yeah, if you read the Wikipedia article on Gujarat or of the castes within Gujarat, you'll get the impression that they, too, are dying to be included into the Punjabi/Scythian/Georgian/Kazakhstan fold. I'm not kidding you one bit. They try and create a common link between themselves and Punjabis, but they don't want to include the possibility that they have *GASP* Dravidian genetics.

45 · brown_dbd said

Punja

62 · portmanteau said

also: the madrasis marry their uncles much like the red-necks.

At least we don't kill baby girls and try to become a homo erotic society. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Or is there?

There was also a state called 'Madras' till sometime in the early 1970s, and a city called Madras till sometime in the 1980s.

Actually, Madras state was renamed Tamilnadu in late 60s and Madras city was renamed in late 90s. Other than that what you said is right. There are valid reasons for South Indians to be called "Madrasis" by the North Indians (hangover from colonial times).

The reason why people are offended by the usage is because (I suspect) of the portrayal of "Madrasis" in Hindi movies / Bollywood of yesteryears.

gee, that was so meta. a dosa is a dosa is a dosa. well done! to think that i missed the subtle gertrude stein reference.

Wow, that was so meta-meta. To not only notice a subtle reference, but make bloody well sure that we noticed you notice. To think I missed the subtle transfer of glory.

72 · Sil said

Not that there is anything wrong with that. Or is there?

ok, i was just kidding. there is this tendency to reduce every cultural practice or reference to its american equivalent; however, much of the valence is, of course, lost in translation.

i do, however, thank shiva everyday that the love of my life doesn't have a female cross-cousin ;)

Other than that what you said is right. There are valid reasons for South Indians to be called "Madrasis" by the North Indians (hangover from colonial times).

Just as there are valid reasons for Indians to be called Subjects of Her Majesty?

74 · The G-Man said

gee, that was so meta. a dosa is a dosa is a dosa. well done! to think that i missed the subtle gertrude stein reference.

Wow, that was so meta-meta. To not only notice a subtle reference, but make bloody well sure that we noticed you notice. To think I missed the subtle transfer of glory.

son, i let my parents know at every opportunity that my liberal arts education wasn't a complete vaste of time. cuz i classy like that.

Both groups marry their first cousins. I'm not sure about South Indians marrying their uncles.

72 · Sil said

62 · portmanteau said

also: the madrasis marry their uncles much like the red-necks.

At least we don't kill baby girls and try to become a homo erotic society. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Or is there?

also: the madrasis marry their uncles much like the red-necks.

..untrue! we madrasis have an american style call option to marry our neices (option price ~ zero, maybe one plate betelnut leaves, and some bajjis+bananas)..that we evaluate constantly against our portfolios on iyengarmatrimony.com and iyerbootycalls.org.

port- don't dismiss lightly the complex evolutionary processes that have gone towards making these norms. There is a reason for the suave, hyper-smug tambram male-and you can usually find its photo in the folds of his lungi..

Re #62: also: the madrasis marry their uncles much like the red-necks

--that was quite an uncalled for comment. The discussion was about the word "Madrasi" and why that makes some of us (Madrasis) squirm a bit (and I explained it was because there was a tone of derision/condescension all the times I have heard it from a north Indian).
With comment #70, chachaji has explained why the term "Madrasi" was used to mean everyone from the south (though that does not explain the condescension). I have numerous south Indian friends who grew up in the north and were made fun of for being from the south, with statements like "the dark one from the south", for instance.

I don't think there is any need to start throwing any mud here.

How about a male cross-dresssing-cousin ;)

70 · chachaji said

OK, a certain amount of historical perspective seems to be missing from the discussion here.

Er, so...? Are we validating the term Madrasi then (derogatory, irrelevant and unpopular though it may be)?

iyengarmatrimony.com and iyerbootycalls.org.

Bloody supercilious Iyengars thinking that their mating is worth a .com profit label, whereas Iyers have to resort to trolling in the freegan, dumpster-diving non-profit world.

79 · dingchak said

..untrue! we madrasis have an american style call option to marry our neices

yeah, so some tamil females (nieces) do marry their uncles, assuming the option is exercised.

port- don't dismiss lightly the complex evolutionary processes that have gone towards making these norms

Hang down your head Portmanteau, hand down your head and cry. You inflicted humour on the take-themselves-uber-serious and now you're bound to die.

Are we validating the term Madrasi then (derogatory, irrelevant and unpopular though it may be)?

I think the question is, from when the term turned derogatory. I don't think there is any harm in calling the people from the Madras state as "Madrasi".

i do, however, thank shiva everyday that the love of my life doesn't have a female cross-cousin ;)

Port-are you sure? what about male cousins? the bi-yengars of kerala are allowed to marry the first cousin of either sex- its an old madrasi tradition..wiki it.

80 · Manvantara said

I don't think there is any need to start throwing any mud here.

manvantara, i humbly direct you to comment #75.

86 · Ponniyin Selvan said

I think the question is, from when the term turned derogatory. I don't think there is any harm in calling the people from the Madras state as "Madrasi".

Except there is no Madras state and hasn't been since the early 1970s*.

*Source: Comment no. 1970

I don't think there is any need to start throwing any mud here.

No need to insinuate that we Madrasis are darkies.

Sorry that was comment no. 70

Rahul, LOL!

To think I missed the subtle transfer of glory.

87 · dingchak said

Port-are you sure? what about male cousins? the bi-yengars of kerala are allowed to marry the first cousin of either sex- its an old madrasi tradition..wiki it.

dc, i'm hoping my fair settuponnu charms have ensnared him.

A dosa by any other name would taste as sweet and buttery?

A Madrasi by any other name would taste as sweet, and, er, buttery.

dc, i'm hoping my fair settuponnu charms have ensnared him.

Maybe he's just hoping you're indeed his long lost cousin, who was separated from him at birth right before the child marriage ceremony, and he yearns for his wonk-eyed Lalita Pawar Mrs. Gomes nanny to reunite the two of you by singing your favority lullaby/love-song.

94 · Rahul on April 14, 2008 04:08 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

A dosa by any other name would taste as sweet and buttery?

A Madrasi by any other name would taste as sweet, and, er, buttery.

..only if he's from an iyengar bakery..

Except there is no Madras state and hasn't been since the early 1970s

Note: I'm not defending the folks who use "Madrasi" in derogatory terms.

Some habits are hard to change esp. with names. I know many people who still use Bombay, Madras and Calcutta instead of Mumbai, Chennai and Kokota and I'm sure people will be using Bangalore instead of Bengaluru for decades to come. It is possible that some folks still use "Madrasi" just like that.

Again, I suspect, the term turned derogatory with the portrayal of "madrasis" in the Hindi movies or with the anti-Hindi protests of the early 60s..

71 · boston_mahesh said

Even the light-skinned SIs, like Ash Rai, plays a "Grewal" (Jatt Sikh Punjabi), but none of her rolls allow her to play a "Nayyar" or a "Reddy"

Nayyars and Reddies can be fat too!

Finally, I've noticed that a Uttar Pradeshi is happy with being labeled as a Punjabi, and from my 2 examples above, they even seem to advocate this. This is especially true amongst people from Delhi (aka "Doabi"), as even the people who've had nothing to do with Punjab in historical times all of a sudden claim that they are Punjabis.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on SM. Btw, have you ever been to Delhi? New Delhi is majority Punjabi. Speaking of UP, I have NEVER heard anybody refer to themselves as Punjabis. People in Western UP are mostly jatts and they dont refer to themselves as Punjabis but as Jatts, Gujjurs whatever.

With comment #70, chachaji has explained why the term "Madrasi" was used to mean everyone from the south (though that does not explain the condescension).

Right. He also said, in the second sentence of his comment:

Let's beat up on prejudice in any form, especially ethno-geographic, linguistic or racial.

It is not the term itself that should be the focus, but the underlying prejudice. You can bet the same prejudice will transfer itself to the geographically correct 'South Indian' or the linguistically exact 'Tamilian' if the underlying prejudice remains.

On a heartening note, the Governor of Tamil Nadu is a Sikh Punjabi, Thiru Surjit Singh Barnala.

If it becomes a hit, it is progress. If it fails, it was somebody's stupid idea.

Floridian, that sounds like Bush quoting JFK :P

95 · Rahul said

Maybe he's just hoping you're indeed his long lost cousin, who was separated from him at birth right before the child marriage ceremony, and he yearns for his wonk-eyed Lalita Pawar Mrs. Gomes nanny to reunite the two of you by singing your favority lullaby/love-song.

you may be right; he can be a kinky bastard.

'Shrunken' dosas are are pretty common in India. I've lived my entire life in North India

I don't think "Madrasis" condone shrinkage.

92 · bess said

To think I missed the subtle transfer of glory.

And enough about you already back to me! (Unless "G" in G-man represents a certain talent for ...um....accuracy.)
A dosa by any other name would taste as sweet and buttery?

Oh dear... my subtle sense of humour has quite passed you by. Is that why you're called Bess, because you always came last?

My Potohari-Pakistani father refers to South Indians as either Malabaries or Madrasis. This has to be a historical legacy because the man doesn't have a mean bone in his body.

I love dosas ...

Which is I guess plays a part in why I love South Indian/Sri Lankan women .. hehe

and I've had "mini" homemade dosas before. Didn't think it was an innovation!

I've seen many UP people identifying themselves as being Punjabi. Here in Boston, a NI will obfuscate their origins and simply state they are from Delhi. Believe me, I know the differences between Delhi/NewDelhi. I realize that ND had a lot of "real" Punjabis from Pakistan in '47. However, "Guptas" are not Punjabis and neither are Hindu "Singhs". They should be proud of whom they are.

Now, to be fair to the good people of UP, I know a girl here surnamed as "Mishra", and we all know that this is a Bihari/Orissan name. Yet, she's very ashamed of this fact, and she claims that she's not Bihari/Orissan. Instead, she's a Uttar Pradeshi. Her very mature younger brother has no problem identifying himself as a Bihari, and he's proud of his "law-breaker" persona, even though he's a sweet, smart, and cultured man.

My point is: No matter what state/language/ethnic demonym that we are, we should be proud of who we are. We shouldn't be ashamed of our darkness, and we shouldn't allow ourselves to be divided. Moreover, we should try to be more culturally sensitive. I do get the feeling that North Indians are more culturally sensitive towards Pakistanis than they are to South Indians.

99 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said

There's a good reason why many S.Indians (SI) refer to NI as "Punjabis". The reason is that many NI identify themselves as being Punjabis even when they are not! I can give you some examples: I knew a guy surnamed as "Gupta", and he identified himself as being a Punjabi. However, behind close doors, without telling me that his family was from the UP, he'd lament on the "UP bhaya" perception inherent in all Indians.

Another case: I was at an Indian friend's wedding 4 years ago, and at my table were 2 American-born NI kids. The girl was a 21 year old girl surnamed as "Singh", but she was Hindu. The boy was an American born 'Uttar Pradeshi' as well, and the 2 were family friends. I remember that this girl was teaching/convincing him that they were Punjabis, and this boy, who was like 12, was confused, and he told her that both of their family was from UP and not Punjabi. For some reason, this girl really didn't want to be identified as a UP girl, but as a Punjabi, and she was trying to convince that young boy the same thing.

Finally, I've noticed that a Uttar Pradeshi is happy with being labeled as a Punjabi, and from my 2 examples above, they even seem to advocate this. This is especially true amongst people from Delhi (aka "Doabi"), as even the people who've had nothing to do with Punjab in historical times all of a sudden claim that they are Punjabis.

This is because all NI films/Bollywood have Punjabi actors/actresses playing the rolls of Punjabis. Even the light-skinned SIs, like Ash Rai, plays a "Grewal" (Jatt Sikh Punjabi), but none of her rolls allow her to play a "Nayyar" or a "Reddy". So, implicitly, the movie industry will have us believe that being a UP is not good enough and SI is surely not good enough.

Oh yeah, if you read the Wikipedia article on Gujarat or of the castes within Gujarat, you'll get the impression that they, too, are dying to be included into the Punjabi/Scythian/Georgian/Kazakhstan fold. I'm not kidding you one bit. They try and create a common link between themselves and Punjabis, but they don't want to include the possibility that they have *GASP* Dravidian genetics.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on SM. Btw, have you ever been to Delhi? New Delhi is majority Punjabi. Speaking of UP, I have NEVER heard anybody refer to themselves as Punjabis. People in Western UP are mostly jatts and they dont refer to themselves as Punjabis but as Jatts, Gujjurs whatever.

I've always thought that a lot of non-Punjabi North Indians looked down on Punjabis for being loud, unsophisticated and "country"? Sorta like how New Yorkers feel about the South...but now they're pretending to be them?

Say it ain't so. Be you!

son, i let my parents know at every opportunity that my liberal arts education wasn't a complete vaste of time. cuz i classy like that.

Oh. You didn't tell me your parents are reading. Sorry uncle and aunty. I'll play nicely. :)

Boston Mahesh,

I think once again the issue may be the people in your immediate circle and how they identify themselves. I have friends who are Gupta and whose families are from Punjab and they identify themselves as Punjabis and I don't think there is antyhing wrong with that.
I have a lot of family from UP; Muradabad, Agra, Merrut, Barreily, Lucknow and I can go on and I have never met people from UP who would rather identify themselves as Punjabis for reasons you state.

Deemz,

I have heard Malbari being used in a lot of Pakistani plays and thought it applied to people from Hyderabad, thanks for the perspective.

109 · umber desi said

I have heard Malbari being used in a lot of Pakistani plays and thought it applied to people from Hyderabad, thanks for the perspective.

Errr... the city of Hyderabad in in the state of Andhra Pradesh is in the south of India. So Deemz's point didn't really give you a change in perspective. The Malabar coast is in Kerala and you need to try and call all Malayalis Malabaris and see what happens then!

105 · deemz said

My Potohari-Pakistani father refers to South Indians as either Malabaries or Madrasis. This has to be a historical legacy because the man doesn't have a mean bone in his body.

The older generation is has complete diplomatic immunity. They had a reason. The venom being flung around generously here is for the benefit of the Wikipedia generation.

I prefer to piss off North Indians by being dumb and calling them Biharis. I recommend all pissed off "Madrasis" to start calling North Indians "Biharis". That would be major fun.

I think once again the issue may be the people in your immediate circle and how they identify themselves. I have friends who are Gupta and whose families are from Punjab and they identify themselves as Punjabis and I don't think there is antyhing wrong with that.
I have a lot of family from UP; Muradabad, Agra, Merrut, Barreily, Lucknow and I can go on and I have never met people from UP who would rather identify themselves as Punjabis for reasons you state.

I agree. Boston_Mahesh hangs out with weird people. Also I have a lot of family in UP/Delhi and no Urdu speaking Muslim would ever refer to himself as a Punjabi. Punjabis are a source of derision and ridicule in the Urdu speaking community generally and are considered uncouth and uncultured. That attitude of course is unhealthy and wrong but is a far cry from Mahesh's claim about people from UP referring to themselves as Punjabis.

G-Man,

I think you should check this before about Hyderabad and Pakistan, I conceded I was wrong about my understanding of the usage of Malabari, here is how Malabari is used in Pakistan.

I prefer to piss off North Indians by being dumb and calling them Biharis. I recommend all pissed off "Madrasis" to start calling North Indians "Biharis". That would be major fun.

You can call me whatever you want, just don't call me late for dinner.

114 · umber desi said

G-Man,

I think you should check this before about Hyderabad and Pakistan, I conceded I was wrong about my understanding of the usage of Malabari, here is how Malabari is used in Pakistan.

Oh, a thousand. I didn't realise we were talking about Pakistan - my mistake.

in response to some previous misinformation that went unchallenged....of the 29 districts that comprise karnataka, only three were ever in the madras presidency...seven were in the bombay presidency, another four in the nizam's dominion, and the remainder being princely states like the kingdom of mysore...three of 29...i think its fair to say that it is absolute ignorance to conflate kannadiga identity with madras...i'm sure that people of telengana would feel the same, and their region is not small at all. infact, cultural historians and geographers consider pennisular india north of the krishna-tungabhadhra basin to be part of the deccan heartland along with the marathwada region of maharashtra. typically, in the dry interiors of the deccan, hard millets and wheat are cultivated. dosas and idlys are not home food but have been introduced through udupi hotels or bangalore style "darshinis"...

i think its fair to say that it is absolute ignorance to conflate kannadiga identity with madras...

In fact, movie theaters are periodically destroyed and buses regularly burnt to make this point.

people in their homes do not have thawa to make a large dosa, and is the size of an uthapam or little larger than paratha.

A dosa is far better than a paratha can ever be. And y'all know fully well what I mean when I say that.

innovation! Next: toaster breakfast dosas. yummmm

70 · chachaji said

OK, a certain amount of historical perspective seems to be missing from the discussion here. Let's beat up on prejudice in any form, especially ethno-geographic, linguistic or racial. But let's not completely forget history.

Please see my post #48 above. I had referred to this 'historical perspective'.

114 · umber desi said

here is how Malabari is used in Pakistan.

Thanks for the link umber desi. This Malabari (South Indian, also Madrasi on occasion) really has learnt something today! This is fascinating. The unsung victims of the partition.

In all this fighting about North and South, the east of India gets left out... again. Bengal, for some reason, isn't a "Northie" place. And further east... any representatives from the Seven Sister States? NE India is often forgotten in conversations such as these...

Rahul , think you are mistaken...

My sources indicate that,in fact, buses are periodically destroyed and moview theaters are regularly burnt to make this point.

....suffering from major dostarvation....

118 · Rahul said

A dosa is far better than a paratha can ever be.

Unless it's a Kerala paratha of course :D

You go into these small towns in UP and, like a lot of small towns in the Punjab, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to Johnny Walker or religion or antipathy toward madrasis or anti-dosa sentiment or anti-globalization sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

I know a girl here surnamed as "Mishra", and we all know that this is a Bihari/Orissan name. Yet, she's very ashamed of this fact, and she claims that she's not Bihari/Orissan.

LOL!!! I dont even know where to begin on that comment #106, so all I am going to say is ... LOL

On serious topic, here's Yahoo finance story about US food prices rising fastest in 17 years and UN Chief says food crisis is now emergency . This is serious situation folks. This needs major policy level changes or else major geo-political mess is possible.

118 · Rahul said

A dosa is far better than a paratha can ever be. And y'all know fully well what I mean when I say that.

what, size matters? don't underestimate the pleasures of the steaming parantha, smeared with that lubricious dollop of ghee, so it comes easy and smooth on the tongue.

boston_mahesh : your comments are preposterous. I've lived in UP all my life, and have never met anyone who wants to be counted as a Punjabi rather than a 'bhaiyya'. Your generalizations (based on 2-3 examples) are pathetic at best.

115 · Ennis said

I prefer to piss off North Indians by being dumb and calling them Biharis. I recommend all pissed off "Madrasis" to start calling North Indians "Biharis". That would be major fun.

You can call me whatever you want, just don't call me late for dinner.

Just not Bobby, right?

For a second I thought you were going to go to: "You can call me Susan if it makes you happy" (First few seconds are relevant - the rest is to enjoy - Not suitable for work or parents, contains strong language and violence - otherwise perfectly suitable for a discussion on dosas - that's good naturedly veered into Southies vs. Northies)

122 · The G-Man said

NE India is often forgotten in conversations such as these

We can't process things like North and East, facts just get in the way of healthy give and take. Now if they were willing to align themselves with the North or the South, we could include them. I call Bengal for the South.

RC,

I also read a report from the World Economic Forum about rising prices. The report stated that the price of Corn will rise 30% by 2010, I will link an electronic version tomorrow if I can find it.

I should say, Rahul, we don't do parathas very well in the South. I used to wonder why you'd want to eat a paratha with just chilli or ghee, until I had them in Delhi.

Hate to bring the discussion back to the ongoing food crisis, but I think it really bothers the heck out of all us that more and more people are being driven towards hunger, na?

I haven't seen an analysis that talks about the relative weight of different factors though.

Ennis, I haven't seen one myself, but I just wrote a short and crude post on my blog about the reasons for the ongoing food crisis, and the possible short- and long-term solutions to alleviate the situation. The problem seems to be a multi-headed monster, with each one requiring a diffferent weapon. No easy solutions in sight :-(

madrasi or malarky or south indian or whatever other name you have for me, the food is damn good. and most homemade dosas are that size, but i wanna know where the hell his chutney went!

Check pages 50-52 for the partial report I was talking about. I will try and get the link to the electronic version later.

I should say, Rahul, we don't do parathas very well in the South.

I've never had a complaint about me from a paratha, personally.

most homemade dosas are that size, but i wanna know where the hell his chutney went!

I think we have a winner in the innuendo battle. All you other innuendonators, live and loin.

Rahul, you are the most dangerous of all humans - a Madrasi with an insider's knowledge of us Northies.

#106 Boston_Mahesh Now, to be fair to the good people of UP, I know a girl here surnamed as "Mishra", and we all know that this is a Bihari/Orissan name. Yet, she's very ashamed of this fact, and she claims that she's not Bihari/Orissan. Instead, she's a Uttar Pradeshi. Her very mature younger brother has no problem identifying himself as a Bihari, and he's proud of his "law-breaker" persona, even though he's a sweet, smart, and cultured man.

Ouch! First of all, Mishra is a Brahmin last name and a fairly common one in eastern UP as well. Therefore, the girl may not have been lying, though what social upgrade a Bihari might enjoy by posing as an Uttar Pradeshi is beyond me.

I empathize with those fellow Biharis who have to disown their heritage in order to get equal social or professional status while striving for their "piece of the litti" in the more advanced parts of India. Biharis like me can pontificate from the poolside in Florida, but if I were a struggling Bihari software programmer working side by side with bright people from Mumbai and Delhi in a highly competitive environment, I might be a tad worried about getting stereotyped as a bumpkin, too. Would I then pretend not to be a Bihari? I don't know.

Ethnic stereotyping, in my opinion, is economy driven.

Bihar's law and order problem during Lalu's 15 years is not what tarnished its reputation. Bihar's lower economic achievement post-independence did. Biharis are hardly perceived as violent by the rest of the country. They sell milk in Mumbai, climb like little monkeys on twenty-story high bamboo scaffolding to build high rises in Gurgaon, drive their bosses Safaris and walk their babies and dogs. Biharis seldom engage in any activity requiring the use of arms or force. There are no great Bihari soldiers, wrestlers, athletes or gangsters. Biharis are perceived all over India as poor country bumpkins. The "bhaiya" label precedes Lalu's lawlessness by 50 years.

Whatever happened to the dosa thread?

Is that why you're called Bess, because you always came last?

Please change that "Beauty and the Beast" type picture.

First of all, the stereotype of Punjabis being country-bumpkins was "your father's stereotype" - meaning that it is outdated. It's somewhat akin to our friend, Deemz's father referring to SI as "Malabaris" without any malice. This was the stereotype back then - about 30+ years ago. Punjabis are actually quite urban and refined. I believe that this stereotype stems from the Punjabi language, is without a doubt, more rustic than Hindi.

If Punjabis are uncouth, then who is couth/cultured in India? Also, if given a choice, most Indians would rather be associated with an uncouth but light-skinned group than a dark-skinned and cultured group.

But I actually know of *2* other cases where a guy from UP (American born/raised) and one Bihari (Indian born/Indian raised) said that they were Punjabis. The Bihari said that while we, as brothers, were partying together. It's like me saying that "I'm a Palestinian" - when I hang out with my Palestinian friends.

But without a doubt, many people from UP suggest/proclaim that they are Punjabis even when they are not, as they have an inferiority complex towards Punjabis, from my experience. I've seen this quite a bit. I also know of one Gujarati Rajput guy who *never* says that he's Gujarati. Instead, he says that he's Punjabi, and you're right, he was an associate of one of my more weird friends.

113 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said

I think once again the issue may be the people in your immediate circle and how they identify themselves. I have friends who are Gupta and whose families are from Punjab and they identify themselves as Punjabis and I don't think there is antyhing wrong with that.
I have a lot of family from UP; Muradabad, Agra, Merrut, Barreily, Lucknow and I can go on and I have never met people from UP who would rather identify themselves as Punjabis for reasons you state.

I agree. Boston_Mahesh hangs out with weird people. Also I have a lot of family in UP/Delhi and no Urdu speaking Muslim would ever refer to himself as a Punjabi. Punjabis are a source of derision and ridicule in the Urdu speaking community generally and are considered uncouth and uncultured. That attitude of course is unhealthy and wrong but is a far cry from Mahesh's claim about people from UP referring to themselves as Punjabis.

138 · Floridian said

Whatever happened to the dosa thread?

What dosa thread?

The SM Comment Commandment: "After comment # 10, thou shalt digress from the original post. Where possible thou shall then digress again and again until thou cannot distinguish between thy joints and thy fleshy parts." Or maybe that was "especially if thou cannot distinguish...": I tend not to follow commandments very closely.

Madrasi? First Name Rahul?

Whatever happened to the dosa thread?

just had masala crab, prawn kozhambu, and rabbit roast with dosa and idiappam at a chettinad restaurant. enjoyable food meal, yet while you guys are discussing dosas in N. America, i'm arguing slice joints with nyers in bangalore

141 · boston_mahesh said

But without a doubt, many people from UP suggest/proclaim that they are Punjabis even when they are not, as they have an inferiority complex towards Punjabis, from my experience.

Your experience is pretty narrow I'd say, and your deductions are outright wrong.

Regarding Mishras: You were right (and so am I). They can also be from UP..or Kansas. it doesn't matter.

Regarding Biharis: I personally think that they KICK BONDA. They are amazingly nice, fun, cultured, intelligent, and hard-working. Seriously! I have a very good opinion of them, and never forget that Bihar was the cultural capital of India for over a thousand years. It was only made poor within the last century (or maybe last 50 years) or so.

#106 Boston_Mahesh
Now, to be fair to the good people of UP, I know a girl here surnamed as "Mishra", and we all know that this is a Bihari/Orissan name. Yet, she's very ashamed of this fact, and she claims that she's not Bihari/Orissan. Instead, she's a Uttar Pradeshi. Her very mature younger brother has no problem identifying himself as a Bihari, and he's proud of his "law-breaker" persona, even though he's a sweet, smart, and cultured man.

Ouch! First of all, Mishra is a Brahmin last name and a fairly common one in eastern UP as well. Therefore, the girl may not have been lying, though what social upgrade a Bihari might enjoy by posing as an Uttar Pradeshi is beyond me.

I empathize with those fellow Biharis who have to disown their heritage in order to get equal social or professional status while striving for their "piece of the litti" in the more advanced parts of India. Biharis like me can pontificate from the poolside in Florida, but if I were a struggling Bihari software programmer working side by side with bright people from Mumbai and Delhi in a highly competitive environment, I might be a tad worried about getting stereotyped as a bumpkin, too. Would I then pretend not to be a Bihari? I don't know.

Ethnic stereotyping, in my opinion, is economy driven.

Bihar's law and order problem during Lalu's 15 years is not what tarnished its reputation. Bihar's lower economic achievement post-independence did. Biharis are hardly perceived as violent by the rest of the country. They sell milk in Mumbai, climb like little monkeys on twenty-story high bamboo scaffolding to build high rises in Gurgaon, drive their bosses Safaris and walk their babies and dogs. Biharis seldom engage in any activity requiring the use of arms or force. There are no great Bihari soldiers, wrestlers, athletes or gangsters. Biharis are perceived all over India as poor country bumpkins. The "bhaiya" label precedes Lalu's lawlessness by 50 years.

Whatever happened to the dosa thread?

When eating dosas do you
1. Implode
2. Scoop
3. Dip

or

1. Pour
2. Implode
3. Scoop

or

1. Eat it like a burrito?

If Punjabis are uncouth, then who is couth/cultured in India?

Those who eat yogurt are more cultured than most, but you can also reduce the uncouth factor by watching theru-couthu and dancing a dappan-couthu.

143 · Neale Madrasi? First Name Rahul?

Yeah, you're right. Rahul, come clean or else you will be formulated, sprawling on a pin, wriggling on the wall, with no idea how to begin to spit out all the butt-ends of your days and ways.

When eating dosas do you 1. Implode 2. Scoop 3. Dip

or

1. Pour
2. Implode
3. Scoop

or

1. Eat it like a burrito?

Rip, dip and down it!

27 · Nina P said

Hampton Chutney Co. = travesty wrought by American commerce

Long before there was any snob upmarket value attached to a Hampton anything, there was Major Grey's Chutney, which fully evoked the character of the earlier globalization.

Floridian, wonderful contributions upthread. Maximum Respect!

Neale, sorry I messed the block quote thing with your name within quotes. I was having a Bihari moment.

No problem Floridian. I , myself, have secretly been eyeing the jitterbug.

19 · Pooja P. said

I dunno if Mysore Masala Dosa is genuinely from Mysore. I remember getting puzzled looks when asking for it there.

coz in Mysore it's just called a Masala Dosa!

Sorry had to dig on that :D

Damn, where can one get a "consistently" good dosa in l.a?

Neale: "consistently" good dosas in LA to be found at:

1. Parus
2. Annapurna (opened 4 years ago near Culver City)
3. Tirupathy Bhimas (new Andhra -- and yummy-- place in Artesia)
And oh, oh, 4. unlimited Dosa nights (on Fridays?) at Woodlands in Chatsworth (also relatively new, very inexpensive)

Thanks dillidibilli ,

Have to check out 3 & 4.

I'm opposed to this burritozation of the dosa. dosa's should be ripped and dipped (btw, notice no sambar in the pic?) and the inner fillings scooped up to control chutney or potato distribution.

139 · bess said

Is that why you're called Bess, because you always came last?

Saving the Bess for last!
So "G" isn't for "gentle"?

I might be. I called you the best didn't I?

You never, ever eat a dosa like a burrito. It's funny, because you can do ANYTHING else with it, slop the sambhar all over, stir it into a mush, pick the plate up and slurp it down if you want, but you never eat it like a burrito.

If anybody wants to continue the battle in person over dosas in LA, I'm up for it.

157 · Manju said

dosa's should be ripped and dipped (btw, notice no sambar in the pic?) and the inner fillings scooped up to control chutney or potato distribution.

As a kid growing up in UP, I remember that dosa was one of the few things that were served with a fork and knife in the restaurants. These were not high-end restaurants, just run-of-the-mill restaurants. Other things like chola-bhatura, sabzi, naan etc were served with just a spoon, but the dosa plate always had fork and knife. It never seemed odd to me at that time :)

Minkeychief,
I have a crazy life right now, but might take you (and other SMers) up on this at some point :).

BTW, Woodlands (in Chatsworth) have a website that tells you all about their unlimited dosa nights and other such dreams come true.

IMO, of the four dosa places I mentioned above, Parus and Tirupathy Bhimas are the best...although Annapurna and Woodlands are good too. Does anyone know if the Chatsworth Woodlands is a 'branch' of the Woodlands chain? It seems much smaller and homier.

For those looking for dosa's in the Southland, try Dosa Place in Tustin if it's not too far! http://www.dosaplace.com

151 · chachaji

Floridian, wonderful contributions upthread.

I am almost embarrassed to reproduce your kind words, but I just wanted to express my appreciation to you. I, too, read your thoroughly researched and insightful comments from time to time. You are one of the stars of SM.

146 · boston_mahesh
You are not a Bihari, are you? Then why are you copying and pasting my entire comment into your own comment without proper attribution, (not that my comment are so precious)?

161 · dillidibilli

Does anyone know if the Chatsworth Woodlands is a 'branch' of the Woodlands chain?

If Punjabis are uncouth, then who is couth/cultured in India?

The yeast yindiyans are the most cultured of all.

3. Tirupathy Bhimas (new Andhra -- and yummy-- place in Artesia)

Don't know about the SoCal branch, but have not heard good things about the one in the Bay Area. Also, Dosa Place (in San Jose?) is the new "it" dosa restaurant in the Bay Area, from what I hear.

Ennis,
I swear that chicken is starting to smell.

Thanks, Floridian: how interesting, although it does explain why the variety one sees in the assorted Woodlands,Udipis etc one sees across the US.

143 · Neale said

Madrasi? First Name Rahul?

Yeah, you're right. Rahul, come clean or else you will be formulated, sprawling on a pin, wriggling on the wall, with no idea how to begin to spit out all the butt-ends of your days and ways.

You got me. It is just a face I prepare to meet the faces that I meet. But after masala chais and kesaris and kulfis, I do not have the strength to force the moment to its crisis.

Thanks, Floridian: how interesting, although it does explain why the variety one sees in the assorted Woodlands,Udipis etc one sees across the US.

Yep, the entire Woodlands/Udupi naming scheme in the U.S. is a scam to evoke the Pavlovian salivation response among habituated desis. And don't even get me started on the Taj Mahals and Shalimars!

154 · KarmaByte said

19 · Pooja P. said

I dunno if Mysore Masala Dosa is genuinely from Mysore. I remember getting puzzled looks when asking for it there.

coz in Mysore it's just called a Masala Dosa!

Sorry had to dig on that :D

So, in Mysore, you just ask for Pak, if you want this particular sweet?

Sorry, I just had to dig on the dig :))

169 · Prasad said

So, in Mysore, you just ask for Pak, if you want this particular sweet?
Sorry, I just had to dig on the dig :))

Touche

Sorry, that previous comment was missing a link. SM Intern, can you delete it? What I meant to say was:

Sorry, I just had to dig on the dig

I dig this dig. You dig?

128 · brown_dbd said

boston_mahesh : your comments are preposterous. I've lived in UP all my life, and have never met anyone who wants to be counted as a Punjabi rather than a 'bhaiyya'. Your generalizations (based on 2-3 examples) are pathetic at best.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea. It is because you have lived in UP all your life you miss the perspective. I have met many UPites in Mumbai who claim to be Punjabi. When pressed for an explanation they claim it is to avoid the stigma of being called "bhaiyyas" and since they were upper caste UPites not bhaiyyas (as in Yadav etc.) they prefer being known as Punjabis.

Biharis in Bihar dont need to hide their Bihari origins, put them in the company of few bhaiiya hating shiv sainiks see how fast they turn :)

I dig this dig. You dig?

Maybe when Punjoos stop calling it "Madrasi" cooking.

1. All of you, sing together (waving cell phones,lighters,etc for light effects)

"South Indian does not mean Madrasi", "South Indian does not mean Madrasi"........

2. No one uses the term "Madrasi" anymore....at least those who live outside caves. As boston_mahesh says: It was "your father's stereotype"

3. If anyone says "None of you Madarasis know any Hindi", slap him/her.
Have you watched Tamil movies lately? All the leading lady roles are pretty North Indian imports (I'm not complaining..at all....Keep it coming)! Then, the directors/actors marry those bombshells (grrrhhhh..) and have babies like Sonia Palanichamy, Kajol Paruthiveeran, Aamir Ramalingam, etc

Jyothika weds Surya

Sonia Agarwal weds Selvaraghavan

We have dedicated Hindi songs in Kollywood movies: saroja saamaan nikaalo

Now, back to the Dosa, at hand (?!): LEAVE MY DOSA ALONE!!!

My true Tamzhilian blood is boiling.Vaanam pozhikirathu, Boomi vizhaikirathu, dosaiku enna kurai? non-Tamzhilians, excuse and jump here to get the context from the subtitles - Katta Bomman Dialog

That picture is wrong in every pixel, including the shrunk dosa. Where is my sambhar, chutney, kushka/kolambu, oily rasam /chilli powder? What are those green stuff on the plate?

I don't mind having a small dosa, as long as you stick to the Dosa Patent, as certified by entire South India. A dosa without sambar and chutney, WTF???????? Any self-respecting South Indian will walk away from that restaurant.

I take great umbrage over this whole thing X-( It's an assault equivalent to making thick burgers thin and then remove the ketchup, mustard, lettuce and tomato

Back to the dosa theme:

The better Indian buffets in the US are now serving made-to-order dosas even with the $8.95 all you-can-eat spreads, not the limp stuff sitting in steam trays.

A recent innovation in the dosa making business is the tent shape. I hate it, but it's there.

I know what I am having for lunch tomorrow.

I prefer to piss off North Indians by being dumb and calling them Biharis. I recommend all pissed off "Madrasis" to start calling North Indians "Biharis". That would be major fun.

The equivalent of black americans calling each other niggas? Good idea

In Mysore it is known as masalae. No Dosa!! And it is traditionally served only with coconut chutney. Sambar is served only by "Madrasis". (literally the people from Madras eat their dosas with chutneys and sambar). Today in the various darshinis both sambar and chutney is served, but not by the traditional MTR or Vidyarthi Bhavan.

The reason we resent being called Madrasis is because we are from Karnataka and NOT TN!(where by the way Tamil New Year was moved to Jan 14 by a govt. order!)

Hmmm, let's see:

Biharis claim they are uttar pradeshis
Uttar Pradeshis claim they are punjabis (except the muslim urdu speakers who look down on punjabis since they claim they are persians, arabs or turks)
Punjabis claim they are Scythians

So it turns out that all north indians are ashamed to be from India. Funny or pathetic? You decide.

Reg Madrasi - yes, anyone south of the Vindhyas is considered a Madarasi....what I don't like is the condescending tone associated with "Are you a Madarasi?".

That, not surprisingly, works the other way round too. For most South Indians, anyone from north of Andhra is a Northie. I, being Maharashtrian, end up getting a lot of shit from both sides.

Finally, I've noticed that a Uttar Pradeshi is happy with being labeled as a Punjabi, and from my 2 examples above, they even seem to advocate this. This is especially true amongst people from Delhi (aka "Doabi"), as even the people who've had nothing to do with Punjab in historical times all of a sudden claim that they are Punjabis.

However, "Guptas" are not Punjabis and neither are Hindu "Singhs".

Also, Delhi is NOT doabi, nor has it been at any point in its modern history.

During pre-colonial/colonial times, very small parts of western UP were at times part of what was then called Punjab. This may explain why some people identify as Punjabi even though the borders of where they are from may have shifted since then. I don't doubt your anecdote, but I seriously doubt that the masses are clamoring to be Punju. While the uncouth Punjabi may be your father/grandfather's stereotype, it is still alive today. You certainly hear it within India and within the diaspora. I have also NEVER met other Northies who "clamor" to identify as Punjabi. Every state has its own stereotype/stigma. I'm sure it's possible to find at least one person out there "passing" as another group. That doesn't mean the majority act or feel the same way.

Oh, and the mini-dosay look cute and much more edible. I always feel wasteful when I order dosa b/c I can never finish one on my own! I am ambivalent to unhappy with the crepe-style bastardization of dosa; at that point, why not just call it a vegan crepe?

The food crisis is distressing. I don't know that small portions are driven just by rising costs of grain, however; I think that nutritionism is also a driving factor.

And I want to echo the poster above -- Happy Vaisakhi!

I'm from Delhi and this is the first time I've heard anybody goes out of their way to be considered Punjabi! If anything, it's considered an insult. Just the other day I was talking with my friend in Delhi, who happens to be punjabi and I asked about her 13 year old son. She goes, OMG, he's turning into a total punjabi - meaning he's becoming uncouth and uncultured. So while I can't tell you who the couth and cultured indians are, it certainly wouldn't be the punjabis. But punjabis themselves seem to be quite happy with who they are, so it's all good i suppose.

those little dosas may sell at 7-11. they already have sushi and burritos, not to mention the fact that you can't go there without having an indian accent.

A recent innovation in the dosa making business is the tent shape. I hate it, but it's there

But, Floridian, kids just love the topi dosa. I was out at dinner with two friends who both have toddlers, and they were so thrilled to get these cones, they actually allowed their parents to participate in entire conversations for the duration of the entire meal!

I'm opposed to this burritozation of the dosa.

Tom Tancredosa and Aalou Vadobbs agree.

i just made the mistake of ordering a masala dosa to go. i think the packaging turned it into a wet noodle and it lost all its crispness. so put dosas in the sushi category...no take out, must be eaten as soon as its prepared.

should've had a burrito.

185 · Rahul said

Tom Tancredosa and Aalou Vadobbs agree.

desi arnaz is torn

184 · Rahul said

A recent innovation in the dosa making business is the tent shape. I hate it, but it's there

But, Floridian, kids just love the topi dosa. I was out at dinner with two friends who both have toddlers, and they were so thrilled to get these cones, they actually allowed their parents to participate in entire conversations for the duration of the entire meal!

Ah, I was wondering if "tent" meant the cone-shaped ones. In many to most places in Bangalore, if you order a plain dosa it comes in the cone shape (and has done for at least 30 years). (My age... ish.)

for the new yorkers, i just checked out tiffinwala last week - it was better than i had expected, and satisfied my sides-trifecta of chutney, sambar, and podi. but they gave me masala w/ my dosa, and for some reason i hate the masala with any dosa.

rahul, http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005138.html#comment199919, and pingpong : the cheesiness is killing me (and in a bad way, like a paneer dosa) ;)

In no particular order...

The state of Mysore was renamed Karnataka in the 1970s. Mysore is also city in Karnataka.

I've had plenty of Pakistani cabbies in NYC ask me if I was a 'Madrasi'. No contempt or condescension in tone of voice. I grew up in Delhi and conversely, I never heard the term 'Madrasi' used with anything than a scornful, contemptuous and dismissive tone of voice. Younger North Indians these days have the good sense (and exposure to diversity) not to use the term anymore.

That picture of a leg of Tandoori chicken alongside a dosa is enough to put most TamBrahm vegetarians off food for a while. Piece of dead animal next to tiffin. Yuck. Even though I'm quite comfortable with the items served separately. Non-veg SIs find this inconsistency hilarious, I know.

Masala dosas, were invented in Mysore in the 1930s, according to my Mom. Initially, they were strictly a commercial dish. Of course, people at home tried their hand at making them pretty soon. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that domestic 'Thosais' have always been on the smallish side. The huge mutant 3 foot long dosas are strictly a restaurant phenomenon.

i meant :
rahul, manju, and pingpong : the cheesiness is killing me (and in a bad way, like a paneer dosa) ;)

190 · ak said

the cheesiness is killing me (and in a bad way

this may help

138 · Floridian said

Rahul, you are the most dangerous of all humans - a Madrasi with an insider's knowledge of us Northies.

(and in a bad way, like a paneer dosa) ;)

A Supplication

Sir, perhaps you'd deign to sire
a batallion of half-caste Iyer;
Given your rather thick dossier,
of torrid, austral-northern affairs,
By now, you must have surely learned,
Paneer dosas musn't be cruelly spurned.
Granted, they're may an acquired taste;
But only the callous judge in haste.

PS: the above is dedicated to Rahul, in case, my motives aren't transparent. i like my motives to match my dress, because i'm classy like that.

brown_dbd said:

OK, a certain amount of historical perspective seems to be missing from the discussion here. Let's beat up on prejudice in any form, especially ethno-geographic, linguistic or racial. But let's not completely forget history.

Please see my post #48 above. I had referred to this 'historical perspective'.

I want to give brown_dbd (his) props. Also, the map (he) linked in is in color and shows the whole of British India, unlike the one I linked in. He made essentially the same point some 22 comments before I did, and I apologize for having missed it.

As an aside, and to complete the story - not only were parts of the other 3 Southern States in the Madras Presidency - but Sindh and (most of what is now) Gujarat (except for Kathiawad and Baroda, princely states) were in the Bombay Presidency; and almost all of Bihar, Orissa and Assam, along with both E. and W. Bengal, were in the Bengal Presidency (except for princely states like Cooch Behar).

Again, my apologies to brown_dbd for missing his fine comment earlier.

Thanks for the citation Chachaji :)

180 · Camille said

The food crisis is distressing. I don't know that small portions are driven just by rising costs of grain, however; I think that nutritionism is also a driving factor.

Camille, can you explain what you mean by nutritionism? I've desperately wanted to stay ahead of the curve on the food price issue, both domestic and international, but I've been eaten alive by work. When I hear "nutritionism", I think Michael Pollan. Is that the sort of nutritionism that you're referring to? Can you point me to some literature that explores this further and how it relates to food prices?

First of all, the stereotype of Punjabis being country-bumpkins was "your father's stereotype" - meaning that it is outdated. It's somewhat akin to our friend, Deemz's father referring to SI as "Malabaris" without any malice. This was the stereotype back then - about 30+ years ago. Punjabis are actually quite urban and refined. I believe that this stereotype stems from the Punjabi language, is without a doubt, more rustic than Hindi.

Where to even begin...firstly, most Indians are NOT urban or refined...it's an agricultural society for the most part, people.

As for the Punjabi language, it has the unfortunate fate of always being compared to Hindi/Urdu for some reason. People need to look at it on its own merits. I would say it's no more rustic than Hindi varieties spoken by millions and millions of farmers in northern India. It's true that Punjabi has a rougher sound than urban Hindi/Urdu...part of the reason a more refined version of Punjabi never arose is because it historically was never the main literary language of Punjab...that post being held initially by Persian, later Urdu, and then also English and Hindi. Punjabi only really became used widely as a literary language in post-1947 Indian Punjab, and that too mainly by Sikhs. Of course there is a lot of medieval poetry and literature, much if not most of it by Muslim Sufis, and it is as refined (while maintaining its basic character) as anything else.

Anyway, Punjabi, like most languages, exists on a spectrum, from extremely pure, rural, and hard-core like this, to rather more elegant and refined like this. Note there is no value judgement there, as both sound great to me.

Check out this very beautiful Pakistani lady sing this nice traditional song.

That chicken leg looks thoroughly unappetizing. Meanwhile, the nations of the Indian subcontinent, already the hungriest region of the planet, are facing a food crisis of epic proportions:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/04/14/world.food.crisis/?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail

"(CNN) -- Riots from Haiti to Bangladesh to Egypt over the soaring costs of basic foods have brought the issue to a boiling point and catapulted it to the forefront of the world's attention, the head of an agency focused on global development said Monday."This is the world's big story," said Jeffrey Sachs, director of Columbia University's Earth Institute.

"The finance ministers were in shock, almost in panic this weekend," he said on CNN's "American Morning," in a reference to top economic officials who gathered in Washington. "There are riots all over the world in the poor countries ... and, of course, our own poor are feeling it in the United States."

""While many are worrying about filling their gas tanks, many others around the world are struggling to fill their stomachs, and it is getting more and more difficult every day," Zoellick said late last week in a speech opening meetings with finance ministers. "

"In just two months," Zoellick said in his speech, "rice prices have skyrocketed to near historical levels, rising by around 75 percent globally and more in some markets, with more likely to come. In Bangladesh, a 2-kilogram bag of rice ... now consumes about half of the daily income of a poor family." The price of wheat has jumped 120 percent in the past year, he said -- meaning that the price of a loaf of bread has more than doubled in places where the poor spend as much as 75 percent of their income on food."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-food-prices-global-crisis-story,0,3603827.story

"As global food prices race upward, no place demonstrates the growing risks to the planet as much as India — home to more than half of the world's hungry."

"All told, 33 countries around the world are at risk of social upheaval as a result of acute increases in food and energy prices, said Robert Zoellick, president of the World Bank, in a speech this month. In countries where buying food requires half to three-quarters of a poor person's income, "there is no margin for survival," he warned."

"India, which has more malnourished people than anywhere else in the world—even more than sub-Saharan Africa in both absolute and percentage terms—is so far not counted among the countries most in danger. Largely that's because its government runs the world's biggest food aid program, an $8.4 billion effort that pushes 15 million tons of subsidized wheat and rice a year to hundreds of millions of people. The United Nations' World Food Program, the world's biggest food relief aid agency, by comparison, ships just 5 million tons of food a year to 73 million hungry people at a cost of $3.4 billion, WFP officials said."

"But India has the potential to play a big role in accelerating the world's developing food crisis. With its population and its per capita demand for food growing faster than its agricultural productivity, the nation of 1.1 billion is edging toward becoming a net importer of food, a reality that could turn the current spikes in international food prices into consistent highs for a decade or more as demand grows, analysts say. India, the world's biggest rice producer after China, is also a major exporter of rice to Bangladesh, one of the poorest and most vulnerable nations in the world. Its decision late last month to ban exports of all but high-priced basmati rice could eventually hit hard at Bangladesh and other hungry neighbors, which may be forced to start importing food at prices higher than those they pay to India. So far Bangladesh has received a limited exemption from the export curb."

Inside India itself, inflation is eroding the buying power of millions of people like Raju with little ability to pay more for food. That is a huge political worry for India's ruling party, which faces elections this year and already has begun pulling a variety of economic levers, including cutting duties on imported food, in a desperate effort to hold down prices.

India today sets its poverty line at an income of about 33 cents a day, a third of the international extreme poverty standard of $1 a day. As food prices rise, it may be forced to recalibrate its calculation of the number of Indian families who need help, requiring the government to add billions of dollars a year to a food aid budget that already has surged 27 percent since the 2006-07 financial year.India hopes to address its own looming problem by increasing its agricultural productivity, now just half that of China, which has much more irrigated farmland, said Ramesh Chand, an agricultural economist at the National Center for Agricultural Economics and Policy Research.

But in a country where 60 percent to 70 percent of people make their living farming small plots and there are few jobs for unskilled labor in the cities, moving small farmers off their land to expand larger-scale agriculture would be difficult.

A better option for cutting hunger, Indian agricultural economists say, would be new government-funded work programs to build irrigation canals and improve a disastrous infrastructure, particularly rural roads that are now so overburdened and potholed that more than 30 percent of the country's agricultural produce spoils on the way to market.

Increasing agricultural output fast enough will be tough, particularly with the government announcing last week that it intends to put 30 million acres into biofuel crops by 2017.

In India, as in much of the world, nobody is quite sure whether world food production will increase to meet growing demand—as has happened repeatedly over the centuries—or whether a new era of permanently higher prices and hungrier times is on the horizon.

"It's a very difficult question," said Arif Husain, a food policy analyst with the World Food Program in Rome. "Nobody knows what the long run means right now. We are in uncharted waters."

So, in Mysore, you just ask for Pak, if you want this particular sweet?

That'll do it, but when in Chennai make sure you say Mysore-pak, lest they confuse it with Chennai-pak or just plain old pak >:)

Vyasa, you forgot to bold this phrase "said Ramesh Chand, an agricultural economist at the National Center for Agricultural Economics and Policy Research." Otherwise, the rest was very pertinent, especially for those of us who are incapable of clicking through links and need everything cut and pasted. I also realize this might be a good practice in China where arbitrary websites are censored, so you want to make sure you have local copies of everything.

Both of these videos were beautiful. I'm surprised that NFAK was singing in Punjabi, for I thought it was Urdu. Regarding boliyans, bhangra, and giddha, do Pakistanis enjoy these activities, or is this only confined to India's Punjab?

197 · Amitabh said

First of all, the stereotype of Punjabis being country-bumpkins was "your father's stereotype" - meaning that it is outdated. It's somewhat akin to our friend, Deemz's father referring to SI as "Malabaris" without any malice. This was the stereotype back then - about 30+ years ago. Punjabis are actually quite urban and refined. I believe that this stereotype stems from the Punjabi language, is without a doubt, more rustic than Hindi.

Where to even begin...firstly, most Indians are NOT urban or refined...it's an agricultural society for the most part, people.

As for the Punjabi language, it has the unfortunate fate of always being compared to Hindi/Urdu for some reason. People need to look at it on its own merits. I would say it's no more rustic than Hindi varieties spoken by millions and millions of farmers in northern India. It's true that Punjabi has a rougher sound than urban Hindi/Urdu...part of the reason a more refined version of Punjabi never arose is because it historically was never the main literary language of Punjab...that post being held initially by Persian, later Urdu, and then also English and Hindi. Punjabi only really became used widely as a literary language in post-1947 Indian Punjab, and that too mainly by Sikhs. Of course there is a lot of medieval poetry and literature, much if not most of it by Muslim Sufis, and it is as refined (while maintaining its basic character) as anything else.

Anyway, Punjabi, like most languages, exists on a spectrum, from extremely pure, rural, and hard-core like this, to rather more elegant and refined like this. Note there is no value judgement there, as both sound great to me.

Check out this very beautiful Pakistani lady sing this nice traditional song.

This food fight is interesting. Anyway the Woodlands in Chatsworth/LA is not "the" Woodlands. I went there to get my visa for India (this Woodlands plaza is the LA Gandhi Nagar so many things Indian can be got here including the visa). Paid for one, got ten. Good deal I'd say.

You gluttonous, hungry, ill-fed SM readers. 202 comments just at the sight of of food !

But on a serious note

How do we tell when a departure from beloved tradition is actually progress?

when cooking traditional food (a) is not a four hour marathon ( unless the entire gang of people contribute )
(b) when the cooker has ample technological and labour resources to not clean the elaborate utensils required for cooking (c) when you can exploit traditional food and its looks as a business commodity to maximize profits and create a brand

I'm surprised that NFAK was singing in Punjabi, for I thought it was Urdu.

'Tainun akhiyan udeekdiyan, dil vaajan maarda'...pure Punjabi...all his best qavaalis are in Punjabi. He himself was from Faisalabad (formerly Lyallpur). Check out this one.

This song (which is NOT NFAK) is pretty hot these days. I listen to it a lot.

Various monikers from Madras

Hindi kar (Hindi wallah)/Hindi Karan (Hindi Man)
Seth/Sedu (Money lender)
Singh (sardar ji, Truck drivers)

You get eyebrow raises followed by choiciest tamil abuses, when an unsuspecting out of the train/plane north indian starts talking in hindi at the railway station/airport.

The airport security check folks talk in Hindi at the MADRAS airport (cos they are from Central industrial Security Force) - annoying, am sure they would speak english if I was a gora

This happened on a state transport bus somewhere near Vellore (100 Km from Madras), we (unrelated S/w engineers_ were stranded from an accident between our private Bus and another lorry in the routine Bangalore to Madras weekend Soujourn and a handful of us who had slept through the commotion (wee hours) woke up at sunrise and decided to hail a state transport bus to the nearest town - Vellore, to figure out a way to Chennai.

There was a saradarji, another guy from Orissa (both we had just met) and two of us from Madras that worked for the same firm, we climb into this local bus and I buy my ticket from the tamil speaking conductor and look over to the Sardarji if he needs any help. He was talking to us in English and with no warning switched to tamil and bought his ticket from the conductor. The conductor goes loudly "enna sir singh tamizh pesararu?" ( what gives, sardarji talks tamil) - I am sure he din't even realize/intend to use "singh" derogatorily, but I can see how Madrasi can piss off non Madrasis i.e. people not from chennai

eyebrows raised when the (unsuspecting Fresh off the Gaadi) hindi speaking traveller accosts locals in Hindi; Not seen any fuss when people talk among themselves in other languages. The usual response -

would get a reply back in English or broken hindi, if the accosted is not in a mood for fight
If it were a porter/taxi driver/auto driver, might get a hindi reply with under the breath tamil swearing
or no repsonse

Everybody is in a mood to fight and are indignant as ever in Chennai, I suspect the temperature, humidity and acute water problem as cause for the permanently foul bile.

What do you guys think of certain folks in the US who always insist on english in public places even when talking specifically with a group that understands a different tongue?

Camille, can you explain what you mean by nutritionism? I've desperately wanted to stay ahead of the curve on the food price issue, both domestic and international, but I've been eaten alive by work. When I hear "nutritionism", I think Michael Pollan. Is that the sort of nutritionism that you're referring to? Can you point me to some literature that explores this further and how it relates to food prices?

206 · madrasi said

If it were a porter/taxi driver/auto driver, might get a hindi reply with under the breath tamil swearing
or no repsonse

Right, because the poor guys who subsist are the ones who is going to learn hindi to make life easier for the esteemed you.
I bet you are the same guy who would spend a $100 on learning spanish or italian or french if visiting one of those countries. But oh, no. A poor guy in TN does not know hindi. Those bastards.

Madrasi -- I too had to hear the same kind ofclueless nonsense from a Northie a couple of weeks ago.

I mean are we still debating this Hindi issue. If they could take the trouble of teaching their own people to read and write Hindi -- the naional literacy average would look better than it is now.

Top marks to Kerala for raising the bar..

Sil, how did you make that inference from my post - am bewildered. if anything I'd have expected the opposite

" The airport security check folks talk in Hindi at the MADRAS airport (cos they are from Central industrial Security Force) - annoying "

Frankly I don't see anything wrong in learning professionally any language especially a foreign one that maybe useful but one that is not accessible where I live except in a class room (japanese/French.....) I picked up Hindi thanks to the Doordarshan's state sponsored/tax-rupee paid hindi agenda and market dominance of Bollywood and I like speaking it. I tried picking up Kannada on the street when I lived in bangalore because it was accessible and not that alien. I personally feel sore about explaining myself when I take no stand, annoyed at you for the reckless fling.

Jillu,
Yeah I don't object to Hindi as the common language in a small gang but strongly object to the objections when it is not i.e. some "Madrasi" is clueless, its his/her constitutional and legislatively reaffirmed right. I am also ok when people converse in an alien tongue amidst others who do not, when the content is irrelevant - gives you a chance to pick that language up :)

brown's me, mis type

i dont know vy the angst. chillax machang.
besides everyone knows even the dogs in desh know angrezi.
"Sit Ceezar. Sit. Good bvai."

Yum. I could go for some dosas & samsosas now. I haven't had Indian food in a while.

i just came back from a nice uthappam-sambar-chutney lunch, followed by some filter coffee. been a stressful few days - surprisingly, this meal helped. just thought i'd share :)

Nothing like a "maddu Breaker" eh? any IIT Mumbai folks wanna elaborate?

214 · ak on April 15, 2008 01:59 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
i just came back from a nice uthappam-sambar-chutney lunch, followed by some filter coffee. been a stressful few days - surprisingly, this meal helped. just thought i'd share :)

anybody remember a "GOTU" from ICH (india coffee house)

GOTU - ghee, onion, tomato uthappam

Speaking of Indian food: There are no Indian restaurants in the Boston area which are so good that I lose focus. However, in Framingham, which is 25 miles west of Boston, there is an Indian grocery store - the India Bazaar (I believe) - that serves South Indian food in the back where they make it. The amazing thing is that the food is prepared by North Indian Sikhs! We have South Indian restaurants as well, but these North Indians do a better job.

217 · boston_mahesh said

Speaking of Indian food: There are no Indian restaurants in the Boston area which are so good that I lose focus. However, in Framingham, which is 25 miles west of Boston, there is an Indian grocery store - the India Bazaar (I believe) - that serves South Indian food in the back where they make it. The amazing thing is that the food is prepared by North Indian Sikhs! We have South Indian restaurants as well, but these North Indians do a better job.

Such a racist! Haha. The only south indian food I like is dosas. I need to go to Udupi Palace (Chicago..in Devon) so I could get dosas now.

The amazing thing is that the food is prepared by North Indian Sikhs! We have South Indian restaurants as well, but these North Indians do a better job.

*sri lankan tamil emigres have this amazing network in the local resto scene and have grwn into this niche. you'll find them in varied kitchens out here - 'ethnic' or mainstream . desi must work. respect.

I've been to 2 Tamil restaurants, one in Toronto area, and the other in NYC. One was Sri Lankan Tamil owned, maybe both. Tey were amazing restaurants. Clean and nice.

219 · khoofia said

The amazing thing is that the food is prepared by North Indian Sikhs! We have South Indian restaurants as well, but these North Indians do a better job.

Pshh... out here in toronto, tamils* cook everything from biryani to linguini.

*sri lankan tamil emigres have this amazing network in the local resto scene and have grwn into this niche. you'll find them in varied kitchens out here - 'ethnic' or mainstream . desi must work. respect.

I've been to 2 Tamil restaurants, one in Toronto area, and the other in NYC. One was Sri Lankan Tamil owned, maybe both. Tey were amazing restaurants. Clean and nice.

there are lots of mom and pop eateries but few that openly advertise thmselves as tamil. hmm... did you go to rashnaa in cabbagetown (part of toronto)? it usually gets good reviews. ironically, their dosai is horrid, but it could just be my bad luc because their cook was on leave that day [so i found out later].

boston_mahesh, the india bazaar place in framingham is okay but there are a few worthy places to note in boston area, mostly around burlington and lowell if you're into driving a bit north....kashmir in boston is also reasonably decent, but no dosas as far as i remember. for the dosas stick with the udipi bhavan, think it's over in ashalnd, ma or something. usually the best dosa places i've been at are found around central nj and jackson heights.

People love this restaurant. Have you heard about Dakshin restaurant close by? It was closed because the Hindus there were praying to Ganesha's little Mickey Mouse buddy too much:

"FRAMINGHAM — Owners of the Dakshin restaurant will meet with town health officials this morning, days after the business was closed because town inspections found more than a dozen critical health violations at the Waverley Street eatery."

I wish that we could all contribute to recipes on this forum.

222 · tikki mirchi said

boston_mahesh, the india bazaar place in framingham is okay but there are a few worthy places to note in boston area, mostly around burlington and lowell if you're into driving a bit north....kashmir in boston is also reasonably decent, but no dosas as far as i remember. for the dosas stick with the udipi bhavan, think it's over in ashalnd, ma or something. usually the best dosa places i've been at are found around central nj and jackson heights.

151 · chachaji said

Floridian, wonderful contributions upthread. Maximum Respect!

I want to give brown_dbd (his) props.

chachaji, i've noticed several times your tendency to recognize well-written and informed comments. i think you should compile chacha's choice -- a list of awards for mutineers who excel in various categories. like:

choicest put-downs prize
al gore prize for pedantic pontification
mae west prize for outrageous flirting
old chap award for most effort expended in joining the old boys club
most knowledge of obscure performance artistes
most irrelevant anecdotes
most baseless generalization based on n=1
william safire award for serial misuse of apostrophes
bill nye the science guy
most number of posts while under the influence of controlled substances
most misogyny under the guise of 'keeping it real'
sexy librarian award
"gratuitous" "use" "of" "scare" "quotes"
most mutable supertroll
latte-swilling-stinky-cheese-consuming-frog-loving-uber-liberal
uma bharti saffron award
ayn rand freedom award for vociferous protest against free lunches
pinko award for consistent support of communism and the homosexual agenda
swadeshi prize for recognizing that everything, in fact, originated in india
howard stern award for the best post on thappals
anthony bourdain prize for the yuckiest, most hideous condiment complement
multi culti award for painful political correctness
michelle malkin prize for shrill antagonization
the secret hindu award
christopher hitchens cup for the most annoying atheist
cheney prize for the most promising republican
john lennon memorial prize for the poster most optimistic about india's 'superpower' status

gah. don't any of you know that *real* dosais are never stuffed? That monstrosity called "masala dosai" is *not* authetic cuisine.

The first Chacha's Choice Award: portmanteau as Comedienne et Humoriste Extraordinaire.

Citation: For her consistent, outrageous, (and outrageously subtle) but ever funny commentary at SM, which runs rings around all bloggers who take themselves too seriously. (and her French blog-handle).

mae west prize for outrageous flirting

Fishing from your own port, Port?

227 · pingpong said

Fishing from your own port, Port?

I think bess is more than an adequate competitor for that one, ping, and dear chachaji, like Floridian said, you are far too charitable.

don't any of you know that *real* dosais are never stuffed?

Bechara dosa too shrunken? Haven't had any hot masala stuffing? Perhaps some herbal products via Agra might help.

and for my honey, may he never ever shrink:

the don juan medal for amassing a vast e-lingerie collection :P

anthony bourdain prize for the yuckiest, most hideous condiment complement

I'd relish that.

The first Chacha's Choice Award: portmanteau

Chacha's choice better than Hobson's and comments more detailed than a South Indian wedding sari.

Muttai Dosai,it's variations, or sunny-side with idli thool and poondu thuvaiyal! Yummy! Dosai in all it's variations is good!

Speaking of ethnicities and stereotypes, how about this? Called Bengalis, Malaysian Sikhs walk out of function! Looks like North Indians in Malaysia have been called Bengali for a long time since most came by ship from Calcutta during British rule.

well, i had the lunch buffet at chola in nyc a month or two ago... and they brought each of us a mini dosa with the usual potato and onion filling as an appetizer. i thought it was a great idea...

Thanks, Floridian: how interesting, although it does explain why the variety one sees in the assorted Woodlands,Udipis etc one sees across the US.

for the new yorkers, i just checked out tiffinwala last week - it was better than i had expected, and satisfied my sides-trifecta of chutney, sambar, and podi. but they gave me masala w/ my dosa, and for some reason i hate the masala with any dosa.

Gupta,

You are 100% correct. However, this "Northwesternization/Europeanization/Whitification" is not limited to Indians. Pakistanis do this as well, but with an Islamic bias.

I was just reading on Wikipedia the other day about some Brahmin communities:
About Chitpavan Brahmins: "Chitpavans belonged to Berber(Egypt based Greeks) race."
Regarding Saraswat Brahmins: "The story of the migration of this community can be traced from Sintashta-Petrovka and Arkaim regions of modern Lower Central Russia near the border of Kazakhistan. NOTE: I wonder why they conveniently trace their origins to the proto-Indo-Iranian stage, but not, let's say, the Out-Of-Africa period about 55,000 years prior. This would have the impact of increasing their antiquity. But oh yeah...it would create an association with Blacks, and this is a no-no.

When you see pictures of these communities, they look nothing like Greeks or Kazakh steppe nomads. So I wonder why they totally down-play their "indigenous Indian" (i.e. Adivasi/Dravidian/Mundic) roots?

178 · Gupta said

Hmmm, let's see:
Biharis claim they are uttar pradeshis
Uttar Pradeshis claim they are punjabis (except the muslim urdu speakers who look down on punjabis since they claim they are persians, arabs or turks) Punjabis claim they are Scythians

So it turns out that all north indians are ashamed to be from India. Funny or pathetic? You decide.

Boston,

I've wondered the same thing. When I visit my relatives in NW Pakistan, it is quite obvious that we have a heterogenous ethnic makeup. We range from blue eyed and fair skinned to black eyes, and dark skin, with most people being somewhere in between. My family has never shied away from their historical roots as Hindus, we know that's what we once were and have pride in our "Jatt" hertiage, so we can at least admit that much. Yet if I am to read the history books about Pakistan, it's as if only the "Aryan" (Indo-European) and later Middle Eastern/Central Asian parts of our heritage matter. There isn't even speculation into the fact that we have some link to the "bedrock" aboriginal populations of India. But to me, when I look at my people's faces, it's undeniable. I figure the shame in admitting this is rooted in deap seated inferiority complexes that we share with other conquered peoples.

Look at this kid from Northern Pakistan, this can't be all aryan-turkish-greek: http://sapir.ukc.ac.uk/SLyon/BhalotPics/pictures/mvc-006f_100.html

Look at this kid from Northern Pakistan, this can't be all aryan-turkish-greek: http://sapir.ukc.ac.uk/SLyon/BhalotPics/pictures/mvc-006f_100.html

I travelled to North India (the "real North", for many years Tirupati remained the Northern most part of India I visited) on my recent trip to India. There is not much of a difference in the average skin color between the common people I saw in the North versus the common people I saw in Chennai. I don't think Mayawati can claim the Aryan-Turkish-Greek heritage.

Deemz,

That was amazing! From NWFP, and the kid looks like a Central Indian.

Kids from Uttarakhand
Kids from Karnataka.

The two are indistinguishable.

235 · deemz said

Boston,

I've wondered the same thing. When I visit my relatives in NW Pakistan, it is quite obvious that we have a heterogenous ethnic makeup. We range from blue eyed and fair skinned to black eyes, and dark skin, with most people being somewhere in between. My family has never shied away from their historical roots as Hindus, we know that's what we once were and have pride in our "Jatt" hertiage, so we can at least admit that much. Yet if I am to read the history books about Pakistan, it's as if only the "Aryan" (Indo-European) and later Middle Eastern/Central Asian parts of our heritage matter. There isn't even speculation into the fact that we have some link to the "bedrock" aboriginal populations of India. But to me, when I look at my people's faces, it's undeniable. I figure the shame in admitting this is rooted in deap seated inferiority complexes that we share with other conquered peoples.

Look at this kid from Northern Pakistan, this can't be all aryan-turkish-greek: http://sapir.ukc.ac.uk/SLyon/BhalotPics/pictures/mvc-006f_100.html

Boston Mahesh,

With all due respect can you please quote the comments from other people in the beginning of your post instead of the end, it makes for easier reading in my opinion.

Ennis,

To your point of food shortage, interesting piece here.

Having trouble understanding how US subsidies for corn are having a huge effect on the price of rice in Bangladesh. Ethanol production is having an effect on first world food prices as farmers switch from other crops into corn, that's true, and on third world corn / maize prices, like in Mexico. But rice seems to be a stretch.

About Chitpavan Brahmins: "Chitpavans belonged to Berber(Egypt based Greeks) race." Regarding Saraswat Brahmins: "The story of the migration of this community can be traced from Sintashta-Petrovka and Arkaim regions of modern Lower Central Russia near the border of Kazakhistan. NOTE: I wonder why they conveniently trace their origins to the proto-Indo-Iranian stage, but not, let's say, the Out-Of-Africa period about 55,000 years prior. This would have the impact of increasing their antiquity. But oh yeah...it would create an association with Blacks, and this is a no-no.

When you see pictures of these communities, they look nothing like Greeks or Kazakh steppe nomads. So I wonder why they totally down-play their "indigenous Indian" (i.e. Adivasi/Dravidian/Mundic) roots?

These brahmins are ashamed to be seen as natives of India. Many sikhs and muslims are even worse. It is so stupid and spineless. Deemz is right:

I figure the shame in admitting this is rooted in deap seated inferiority complexes that we share with other conquered peoples.

These brahmins are ashamed to be seen as natives of India. Many sikhs and muslims are even worse. It is so stupid and spineless

Vyasa urf Gupta urf Prem urf Prema urf Satya, you need to modify your invective and change your style, not just your handle, if you do not want your trollery to be identified.

Ennis,

I didn't mean to suggest that Corn quotas here are affecting price of rice, from what I have come across, the shortage in rice is due to shortage in production, export quotas from producing countries and drougths in Bangladesh. This article speaks to the point.

most irrelevant anecdotes

after the soggy dosa 2 nights ago, i'm now heading down to a wall st steakhouse for a bone-in rib-eye. charred on the outside, dead ass rare in the middle.

244 · Manju said

most irrelevant anecdotes
after the soggy dosa 2 nights ago, i'm now heading down to a wall st steakhouse for a bone-in rib-eye. charred on the outside, dead ass rare in the middle

---
...'dead ass'
Mostly redundant anecdote when talking 'bout steak :-)