April 19, 2008
Caption ThisHumor
The Washington Redskins’ cheerleaders recently performed in Hyderabad Bangalore, during an Indian Premier League cricket match. A Washington Post reporter took the following photo:
(Click on the photo to see the faces of the men a bit more clearly.)
There is also a detailed Washington Post article about the event here. Also, we wrote about the rival Twenty20 cricket league, the ICL, here; cheerleaders seemed to be a part of the mix there as well.
amardeep on April 19, 2008 03:17 PM in Humor · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
¤ Desi Manifesto Blog: The Forum for South Asian American Men said: Indian Cheerleaders: Crushing My Spirits
I dont know about others but whenever I see a shot of those imported-cheerleaders cheering at the T20 game, I cringe. I feel embarrased to see that on TV, I havent psycho-analyzed my feelings about this, but what I know is that it is a very unsettling image for me.
"Dinesh, these cheerleaders' skins aren't red!"
"Shut up, Raj. Just keep smiling! It'll be a lonnnnng time before we see hot, sexy half-naked women in a public place, up close again."
wah, wah.
Gori, Gori, Mella Chori, Chori
"You know Shankar, I always wondered what full-on cultural colonialism with racial overtones would actually look like up close. Now I know."
"You're right, Bala. What about our own homegrown pom-pom squads? What are they to feel, huh?"
Can't resist one more.
"Ramu, is this what Kishore Mahbubani had in mind when he says 'a turbulent era of de-Westernization has begun in Asia' in his new book?"
"Possibly. But remember Mohan, he also said that India's propensity to keep both eyes and ears open, and engage with other civilizations will eventually situate it equidistant between the West and the Rest of the East."
(Thanks to Bobby32 and the news tab!)
"Whew! I'm glad that fence is up to prevent them from attacking us. I mean, those girls look dangerous."
"What are those words printed on her shirt?"
"See, Raj, American colonialism is way differnent than British."
"Wow! They are really hot."
"Yeah, especially the guy in the back row."
"Clad only in the finest of Werther's Originals Summer Collection, the transplanted Red Injin CheerMongers pummeled the air with lusty blows fit for the darkest corner of the Shah's Harem"
--Orientalist Ad Agency.
I realize that native Bangaloreans are bitter about this, but they are just clinging to trishuls or religion or antipathy to people who are not like them as a way to explain their frustrations.
"'Mericans - named after Indians - Doing the jobs that Indian citizens refuse to do!"
It must be the closet thing to Playboy for these guys.
Give me a K! Give me an L! Give me a P! Give me a D!
Either the middle cheerleader has two heads and four feet, or there is some horizontal figure-of-eight action going on.
From the article Rahul posted (@11), this bit was just to good pass up:
In Punjab, however, people are less critical about the idea of cheerleaders.
"It will be pleasing to watch the cheerleaders in all their glory," said dentist Gurpreet Singh, adding, "They will add colour and impudence to the game."
Suresh, standing, white shirt: "I have B.Sc. in E-Comm! Fust class fust! Caste no bar!"
(pre-game) Dinesh to Raj: We are going to meet all the bitches tonight.
(pre-game) Dinesh to Raj: We are going to meet all the bitches tonight.
And Raj to Dinesh: "and I am Santa Clause"
"Um Cindy?"
"What Susie?"
"I think, like, these are are the wrong Indians. The one on our team's helmets has feathers, not dots. And the skin in the stands is brown, not red."
"Why is that one guy holding up a sign that says 'caste no bra?"
Rahul S: "Yaar, I'm only here for academic purposes. Just want to see how many of those girls are Hindu and/or Gujarati."
Facing growing opposition from Native American groups, Redskin's representatives lobby Indians for permission to use "Brownskins." Crowd inexplicably yells back; "Wheatskins!"
...i like potato skins.
22 · Manju said
Facing growing opposition from Native American groups, Redskin's representatives lobby Indians for permission to use "Brownskins." Crowd inexplicably yells back; "Wheatskins!"
Hilarious. You (here) pingpong, and Rahul S (on the miniskirts thread) are making my day. Yes, I have a pathetic life.
Hot professors travel to India seeking RAs. "This is not what I intended," laments Portmanteau.
Manju is on FIRE!
"Oye Raj, is that Bal Thackeray in a burqa ogling the cheerleaders?"
"Papa-ji, this is so much better than the time you took us to the zoo to see the baboons."
[loud whistle] "Psst...Look here, Miss..MISS...MY NAME IS MANJU TOO. COINCIDENCE...I THINK NOT!" [thrusts pelvis]
Globalization works both ways. Outsourcing cheerleading operations to the US is such a big hit in India!
11 · Rahul said
I realize that native Bangaloreans are bitter about this, but they are just clinging to trishuls or religion or antipathy to people who are not like them as a way to explain their frustrations.
Sorry, I find the whole concept of "cheerleading" in professional sports very sexist. I don't understand why the protests are just being brushed off. Sure the fundamentalists are protesting, but so are the women groups. It's so easy to brush off the protests because Hindu fundamentalists are taking part in it. And to be honest, some of the points they are making do gel with the arguments the Women's groups are making.
Sorry, "cheerleading" in professional sports really don't need to be expanded to India.
But the actual reasons are not going to matter to anyone I guess. It's just going to be seen as outdated Indians protesting some great American tradition. Please.
i bet the men there were disgusted by such slutty behavior and untanned skin.
"Susie, I think I see the guy who helped me figure out how to work my Tivo."
24 · portmanteau said
22 · Manju said
Facing growing opposition from Native American groups, Redskin's representatives lobby Indians for permission to use "Brownskins." Crowd inexplicably yells back; "Wheatskins!"
Hilarious. You (here) pingpong, and Rahul S (on the miniskirts thread) are making my day. Yes, I have a pathetic life.
That's sad. Maybe you should hang out with those Gujrati Indian girls to learn how to spice up your life.
"DING"
Susie, I think I see the guy who helped me figure out how to work my Tivo put up my webpage.
Son turning to Father: "This is why I must go to America. I will make you proud and marry a cheerleader who can make aloo paranthas."
"Washington sends highly persuasive representatives to build consensus for nuclear deal."
The cheerleaders are jumping for joy because they are probably getting more money doing these side projects compared to their salary earned in US games.
Maybe you should hang out with those Gujrati Indian girls to learn how to spice up your life.
They broke my heart. Sluts.
The only comment that made sense was 31 (de-lurker)
Amardeep, what do you mean by "Click on the photo to see the faces of the men a bit more clearly"? Would you type that for an NFL game? A suggestion for your next caption-this: Post a picture of Indian men watching Angelina Jolie strip on screen.
Btw, with minor changes, most of the comments above would work for any game in any country.
Sri
PS: The photo is definitely not from a Hyderabad match. The only matches so far have been in Bangalore, Delhi and Mohali.
I cringed at the cheerleader bit (of course Vijay Mallya brought them in!) and thought the WaPo article was painfully ignorant (claiming a normal match lasts seven days, and pitching Twenty20 as a sign of brash new liberalized India, as if One Day Cricket hadn't taken hold almost thirty years ago!), and I particularly snorted at the claim in that breathlessly naive, exoticizing, saris vs skin article that "this was more skin than most Indian men would see before marriage," because our item girls do no mean job of giving men their pre-nuptial kicks either. But all the men around me in India remarked on the cheerleaders and I realised it's really very aspirational, the idea that "we" can get "safed chamra" to come and dance for us, sort of a porn fantasy come true for Indian men.
@Sri - yes, that was Bangalore, not Hyderabad.
@SP - have you seen the number of 'safed chamras' (but only women) in your average Bollywood song & dance number, or a music video?
Will there be any matches in Ahmedabad? Maybe we can have our very own Borat sing the Khazak national anthem & praise that other Mr. Modi's war of terror...
This thread has made my day wonly saar. Deee-lishh.
The photo is definitely not from HYD. And it smacks of V. Mallya's ...errrrrrr... class.
I'm a non-bitter native Indian Bangalorean. I'm rooting for the show of more skin - the arugument being: the more skin they see, the less they'll eventually harass 'woh sleeveless ladki cheeeee chheee shameless' on Indian streets.
I'm rooting for the show of more skin
Generally, showing more skin influences one's frequency of rooting too. Too many puns. My "head" hertz.
Tipu, very good point about safed chamra in item numbers - which I also see as a similarly aspirational phenomenon, similar to the popularity of Eastern European belly dancers in the Gulf and other parts of the Middle East.
From the article
It condenses nearly a week of match play into three hours, with shorter "overs," which are similar to innings in baseball.
WTF?!
Is it too much to ask that articles about India to be written with basic competence -- w/o bloopers and lazy stereotypes?
Will there be any matches in Ahmedabad? Maybe we can have our very own Borat sing the Khazak national anthem & praise that other Mr. Modi's war of terror...Is irrelavant flame bait for a fluff piece really needed?
My "head" hertz.I guess Rahul was right.
Actual reasons may vary. For instance, it's equally probable that since the Number Two tries harder, the Number One hertz.
Can bollywood handle this competition from the west for the ogling eyes of indian men?
"Cheering ladies versus leering chaddies."
15 · pingpong said
Either the middle cheerleader has two heads and four feet, or there is some horizontal figure-of-eight action going on.
lol i think its just the angle they are standing in and the angle the photographer was in made it look like that.
Ok, I'll add one, lame as it may be:
Raj: These cheerleaders are so hot! Especially the one on the left...she's a 6!!
Cheerleader: This is totally a harsh crowd. I know I'm at least an 8, but no one is giving me anything better than a 6!
NFL cheerleaders don't get paid right? So did they get paid for this gig by Mallya or did the Redskins get paid? Such a sexually repressed lot we are in India. So little in India whether it is a basic thing such as sanitation or the law, or working hours, is written with women in mind. India's record with womens' welfare is the pits, and all the more glaring because of high flown rhetoric. This is insultig to women in India. Such a terrible thing. As for WashPo and competence, when it comes to India or Hinduism it is not required.
From the Wapo article:
"The cheerleaders are heroes in their ability to make people excited," exclaimed the merry Kerala, a 30-year-old doctor of traditional ayurvedic medicine, as friends crowded around him, cheering in agreement. "They have great spirit."
An Ayurvedic doc called Kerala, and a merry one at that. Ladies and Gentlemen, Emily Wax has efortlessly adapted to life in fantastic India
56 · jyotsana said
NFL cheerleaders don't get paid right? So did they get paid for this gig by Mallya or did the Redskins get paid? Such a sexually repressed lot we are in India. So little in India whether it is a basic thing such as sanitation or the law, or working hours, is written with women in mind. India's record with womens' welfare is the pits, and all the more glaring because of high flown rhetoric. This is insultig to women in India. Such a terrible thing. As for WashPo and competence, when it comes to India or Hinduism it is not required.
How are cheerleaders insulting to Indian women?
Working Hours! And working hours in the rest of the corporate world are women friendly? At peak periods you have extremely long hours in most companies and most countries.
Melissa, looks like we are the only women in the stadium.
M. Nam
"This is the spectacularization of the game of cricket. One-third of these people are here to see the cheerleaders," said Boria Majumdar, a sports historian and a commentator for India's TimesNow news channel. He was conducting live interviews from the stadium. "Sexuality and cricket is the way forward. And it's time India wakes up to the fact that it's a different society. It's a modern society. There's no use keeping it all under wraps."
That plagiarist Boria is spewing nonsense.
And from that ultimate cheerleader movie, Bring It On, here is The Toro's cheer:
I'm sexy, I'm cute, / I'm popular to boot.
I'm bitchin', great hair, / The boys all love to stare, / I'm wanted, I'm hot, / I'm everything you're not, / I'm pretty, I'm cool, / I dominate the school, / Who am I? Just guess, / Guys wanna touch my chest, / I'm rockin', I smile, / And many think I'm vile, / I'm flyin', I jump, / You can look but don't you hump, / Whoo / I'm major, I roar, / I swear I'm not a whore, / We cheer and we lead, / We act like we're on speed, / You hate us 'cause we're beautiful, / Well we don't like you either, / We're cheerleaders, / We are cheerleaders.
40 · portmanteau said
34 · Rahul S said
Maybe you should hang out with those Gujrati Indian girls to learn how to spice up your life.
They broke my heart. Sluts.
Allright. Forget about those sluts. Perhaps you should participate in the entrepreneurial spirit.
De-lurker, liked the point you made.
India does need to become more liberal in thought and I am quite happy with the so-called "Western influence" in some spheres. However, it always troubles me when people confuse women's empowerment with Western culture--they don't seem to see that some Western practices lead back to the same problem.
Allright. Forget about those sluts. Perhaps you should participate in the entrepreneurial spirit.
Done and done.
Dude, back row in the middle.
De-lurker, liked the point you made.
India does need to become more liberal in thought and I am quite happy with the so-called "Western influence" in some spheres. However, it always troubles me when people confuse women's empowerment with Western culture--they don't seem to see that some Western practices lead back to the same problem.
Westernization without modernization!
Westernization without modernization!
True...if such "cheerleading" activities make women more as objects in the eyes of masses then there is no true liberalism or progress. But if these cheerleaders inculcate an atmosphere of freedom for Indian women to make a choice and engender a dignity for any profession/labour then this is not bad. On a more philosophical and moral note I think cheerleading falls in the same category as other controversial issues like the long working hours in Bombay bars and dance clubs or the role of women in (legal) prostitution and pornography in any country.
66 · Bridget Jones said
65 · Rahul S said
Westernization without modernization!
True...if such "cheerleading" activities make women more as objects in the eyes of masses then there is no true liberalism or progress. But if these cheerleaders inculcate an atmosphere of freedom for Indian women to make a choice and engender a dignity for any profession/labour then this is not bad. On a more philosophical and moral note I think cheerleading falls in the same category as other controversial issues like the long working hours in Bombay bars and dance clubs or the role of women in (legal) prostitution and pornography in any country.
Your saying that "cheerleading" is going to help Indian women out. Really? Men are really sexually deprived there. These "girls" are going to be treated as ass. Look at western culture. It's morally degrading. Why do you think Muslim countries despise the West (because they're successful and the cultural left promotes morally degrading behavior) Once you go to conservative cultures like India, and introduce this, it'll become like the West. Cheating on your spouse is allright, abortions are fine, divorces are great, etc. Look at the divorce rate of my parents generation (Indian immigrants..pretty low). Once my generation starts marrying, I guarantee you that the divorce is going to go up. I know a bunch of family friends who have kids, and they've started divorcing like crazy. Maybe, the form of liberalism that you want to help your lady chicks is to advocate education that was limited to women before. Indra K. Nooyi is a good model. Western culture will make more girls skanks in Bharat.
Hi all,
First off, I know a lot of the twenty-somethings (going by displayed levels of immaturity) will howl "Pardesi Gori" the moment they get past the first sentenc. Well, you can insist I am her, but as far as I know, I don't think I'm her. However, the PG-spotters seem to be a perseverant and astute bunch, so I'm sure they'd be right if they came to that lucid conclusion.
My name is Preeti and I live in Bangalore -- a neighbourhood called HSR Layout. I was walking around the compound of the local temple in the evening today -- mind you Bangaloreans take their religion very seriously. I was molested in that ostensibly holiest of places, by a 13/14-year old. I'm 33, old enough I think, to be his mother.
Since the cheerleaders in question belong to the Royal Challengers, I wonder if anyone wants to know what daily life is like for an ordinary woman in Bangalore? How is it remotely relevant to the discussion at hand?
It is, because ordinary women like me are within reach of all those half-crazed, ogling men that the Washington Post framed so tellingly. Those gora memsahibs, (because that's what they still are), are not. They can retire into the safety and protection of their air-conditioned Tucsons and their five-star rooms. Women like me cannot.
We have to contend with harrasment every day in Bangalore (and the rest of India). Is there empirical evidence to prove that objectification via item numbers and cheerleaders will further increase the incidence of harrasment? Probably not. Is harrasment and gender prejudice a reality of my life? Yes.
I find it ironical that foreign cheerleaders are imported to perform for the sexual edification of the male population of a country that is sytematically killing its own female babies. Maybe a shape of things to come?
Our country kills women and girl children on a scale unrivalled elsewhere, insists that most of its women live their lives according to a value system that is unjust at best, heinous at worst (a medium-roasted bride anyone?), yet feels no apparent discomfort in importing semi-naked cheereaders in a vain attempt to be... what? More American than George Bush?
I know all the men here will get that jaded "why do we care look" in their eyes. Maybe you're right, why should you care?
But, if more Indian men had the moral courage to acknowledge sexism and do just a wee bit to reduce it, perhaps ordinary women like me wouldn't need to write hate-filled rants, or waste so many of our years being victms of it.
Cheerleaders wouldn't really be a big deal if Indian women had the same rights and fredoms as Amercan women. But we don't, do we? We are Manu's daughters, after all.
Rahul @67,
I am not saying cheerleading will help or not help. I think the masses in any country should give respect to cheerleading profession in the same way as that of Indra Nooyi. I call for dignity and respect for labour and I don't want to take any moral judgement on what it can denigrate to. If you have objection to cheerleaders but don't have any objection to equivalent stuff on sitcoms, bollywoods/hollywoods which is considered ok then that is hypocrisy. I want to place all prostitutes, cheerleaders, models, film stars or any other "denigrating" profession in the same platform as Indra because in any country they would taken up that profession due to some constraints by the very same society or family which you cliam it will corrupt. If one wants one kids to not go in a particular direction then that is fine but I don't think I have any right to pass judgement on somebody's professsion influencing society. This is my current mode of thinking but I open to more discussions and revisions
Rahul S:
Why do you think Muslim countries despise the West (because they're successful and the cultural left promotes morally degrading behavior)
Dinesh D'Souza? Is that you?
preeti,
i doubt anyone will jump to your bait, but this is a 'caption this' thread. You inability to understand this basic rule and your attempt to steer this conversation into endless-circle PG territory are both hallmarks of PG herself. If you don't have a sense of humor, that's understandable, but don't shit on our parade because you don't like the tone.
Once you go to conservative cultures like India, and introduce this, it'll become like the West. Cheating on your spouse is allright, abortions are fine,
I think when it comes to abortions, India may be number 1 in the world.
71 · Nayagan said
preeti,
i doubt anyone will jump to your bait, but this is a 'caption this' thread. You inability to understand this basic rule and your attempt to steer this conversation into endless-circle PG territory are both hallmarks of PG herself. If you don't have a sense of humor, that's understandable, but don't shit on our parade because you don't like the tone.
Nayagan very true...people for some obvious reasons are getting very serious abt cheerleaders :)
Does anybody here, who watched the last Super Bowl recall anything about the Pats or Giants cheerleaders.
If the NFL get rid of the cheerleaders there would be very little outrage.
Collectively they "DING"
71 · Nayagan said
preeti,
i doubt anyone will jump to your bait, but this is a 'caption this' thread. You inability to understand this basic rule and your attempt to steer this conversation into endless-circle PG territory are both hallmarks of PG herself. If you don't have a sense of humor, that's understandable, but don't shit on our parade because you don't like the tone.
Yeah, how DARE you take this seriously! The man from the United States says you may only laugh!
[INSULT DELETED]
Preeti
Your white girl=obsenity=empowerment equation doesnt make sense. Obscenity is not empowerment.
Apparently you dont seem to have a problem with homegrown obscenity (raunchy music videos/wet rain dances LOL) but with imported ones.
White girls are not obscene. It is our south asian media that paints them as the stereotypical bikini babes. They deal their own problems in the west.
69 · Bridget Jones said
I think the masses in any country should give respect to cheerleading profession in the same way as that of Indra Nooyi.
I'm sure conservative countries are going to embrace that.
70 · pingpong said
i doubt anyone will jump to your bait, but this is a 'caption this' thread. You inability to understand this basic rule and your attempt to steer this conversation into endless-circle PG territory are both hallmarks of PG herself. If you don't have a sense of humor, that's
Nope. I just read his books. Plus, the Portuguese didn't convert my relatives, unlike his.
70 · pingpong said
hul S:
Why do you think Muslim countries despise the West (because they're successful and the cultural left promotes morally degrading behavior)
Dinesh D'Souza? Is that you?
It didn't quote right last time.
Nope. I just read his books. Plus, the Portuguese didn't convert my relatives, unlike his.
Is harrasment and gender prejudice a reality of my life? Yes.
With all due respect, this was true of India before the advent of cheerleaders. The North is much worse in the way ordinary women on the street are treated. Does that mean we should curb freedom of speech in the public arena/choice of profession for women? I think that is punishing the wrong party. I know that Vijay Mallaya is not concerned about either of those issues, but nevertheless, cheerleading is a career opportunity for some women.
What we need is unequivocal public condemnation of and judicial action against oglers, molesters, and rapists -- rather than a red herring debate between that distinguishes westernization and modernization. Of course, westernization does not equal modernization.
Also -- let's be very clear that India itself has a fine home-grown tradition of the objectification of women (before it was permissible to show a heroine as sexually expressive, the producers in various desi film industries did it through vamps; item numbers are not new -- Helen's whole career was based on their popularity). It is not wrong for women to want to be cheerleaders, if they are able to make a considered decision, but it is wrong for men to leer. And I'm assuming ordinary women are not walking in cheerleader outfits, but 'decent' clothing and yet still pretty vulnerable to sexual violence that has few or no consequences for the perpetrator.
81 · portmanteau
I would tend to think that "wanting to become a career cheerleader" and "leering" are more similar than different--both should be legal, but I would think/hope that a lot of families would want to discourage their kids from doing either. Outlawing "ogling" seems deeply problematic--see, e.g., J.S. Mill!
Topcat,
If you were to read my post seriously, and with something approaching attention, you would see the words 'item number'somewhere. Since you are obviously not inclined in that direction, I will not deign to answer you.
Enjoy your earnest attempt at reading any meaning of your choice into my post.
Nayagan,I am very honored to see that you immediately jumped to my PG-baiting. Did you check to see whether PG was hiding in your bedroom closet last night? How about under your bed? Is she trolling your dreams too? Really. You make me laugh.
74 · Suki Dillon said
Does anybody here, who watched the last Super Bowl recall anything about the Pats or Giants cheerleaders.
If the NFL get rid of the cheerleaders there would be very little outrage.
The Giants don't have cheerleaders. And I recall many things about the game including yelling 18 and 1 with a totally diverse set of men and women in the bars and streets of NY that night. And yeah, some of the women were dressed as if they could have been cheerleaders. Good times.
You obviously haven't heard about the history of the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders or how cheerleaders are integral to the raising of team profits and stadium attendance. If the Cowboys got rid of their cheerleaders, who are an institution in Texas, there certainly would be an outrage. Another example: During the Riley era, the introduction of the Knicks City Dancers which have now become a staple at MSG and often the only thing worth watching at a Knicks game.
Lastly, many of the cheerleaders are college educated or cheerleading to make money (for school) or transitioning to drama or dance professions. I know this because I have been lucky enough to have met one or two in my lifetime. (Thanks to (insert deity or god that you believe in) Unfortunately, none of these fine women were able to make aloo paranthas. :(
Back to the humor:
Raju: "I bet you they'll put a picture of us on sepia mutiny"
Jeet: "Yeah and then there'll be a bunch of people who start flaming over what the implications of these women cheerleading means with respect to issues on gender and socioeconomic dynamics"
Raju: "Yup"
(Pause)
Both: "Yaar, these chicks are hot".
Jeet: "Don't forget tomm. we're taking the wives and the kids to the park....Oh and we weren't here".
82 · rob said
"leering"
sorry rob. good catch. leering i guess should be legally permissible but still carry social stigma. however, when i think of leering in the desh, i also think of uncomfortable invasion of personal space, catcalling, and a few choice remarks. the remarks and physical intimidation ought to be legally prosecutable and of course, prevented by good policing. this won't happen although, of course, it places several constraints on women and their movement 'late at night' or in 'unsafe' areas.
82 · rob said
I would tend to think that "wanting to become a career cheerleader" and "leering" are more similar than different-
in their legality, yes; but not in intent! why people want to become cheerleaders versus why they choose to leer are activities whose moral import is not equivalent. but i also think that leering is a better (and more appropriate) object for societal disapproval/ostracism.
"If we get good project managers, we can do this offshore at $25 an hour"
86 · portmanteau said
but i also think that leering is a better (and more appropriate) object for societal disapproval/ostracism.
Leering and inappropriate behavior is also a problem at least one U.S. stadium. There was a problem with leering and harassment by male fans at a particular gate during Jets game. Due to the article linked and other news articles, social pressure was applied resulting in the Jets promising to prevent the acts from occuring. I think that's the type of thing Port's referring to.
And if you are wondering, the Jets don't have cheerleaders.
76 · retorts said
Nayagan you are a putz.
I see you are also swollen with rage over the treatment of women in Bangalore temples. Why don't you write a jeremiad against whitey cheermongers as well?
in fact, i recommend jumping into every post mentioning A)uniforms, B)women, C)cricket, D)whitey and then tying it all together so the people who took this picture as platform for humor can repetitively smack themselves in the forehead while muttering, "Aiyoooo saamyyyyy! Why did I have to cursed with a sense of humor? It has debased women all round the world."
[INSULT DELETED]
My problem is with you criticizing a woman who actually lives in the country for voicing her opinion on a subject because you, neither Indian nor a woman, have deemed this thread for comedic purposes only. Quality of discussion here fell off heavily when Manish left and it's even more pronounced now that Anna doesn't even post anymore. It's less and less relevant and it's attitudes like yours that keep the downward swirl going. Stop micromanaging threads, little man.
Portmanteau in 85-86 & Jangali Janwaar in 88:
Some good points! I just didn't want to go so far as to outlaw "ogling." ;-)
90 · retorts said
My problem is with you criticizing a woman who actually lives in the country for voicing her opinion on a subject because you, neither Indian nor a woman, have deemed this thread for comedic purposes only. Quality of discussion here fell off heavily when Manish left and it's even more pronounced now that Anna doesn't even post anymore. It's less and less relevant and it's attitudes like yours that keep the downward swirl going. Stop micromanaging threads, little man.
preeti wrote as if are all somehow responsible (despite not living in India as you so cleverly indicated)--that's flat wrong. If you're feeling up to tackling the subject in a careful and considered manner (which may take you a couple of years), by all means hit up Abhi and ask for the keys to the bunker. Then you can spar with Preeti and PG and save us all the trouble.
i'm certainly not the one who wrote the post and tagged it as "humor"--if you have problems with the tag, i would talk to Amardeep. (unless you also believe that I am operating an Amardeep marionette in my spare time away from frontin' as an Indian)
if you feel the quality of discussion has fallen off, so be it. I certainly don't care for your opinion on that point. Little or big, i'm just glad i'm not you.
Wow. This is not about whether or not the films show the same amount of skin. This is about the fact that something that's already considered sexist in the United States is making its way into India. So what if the same sexualization is in films. The point is that it does not need to be transfered over to cricket and sports.
What do these cheerleaders do? In college, they at least do some formations (and some males). But for pro-football teams and the other sports "cheerleading" has crept into? They just wave their pom poms around in the skimpiest outfit possible. There are no men. Just women.
In films, yes there is sexualization and skin being showed. But we also see men being increasingly sexualized. Whether or not that's good, is not the point. But in pro-sports cheerleading, it's specifically women just there for the gratification of men.
Isn't the sport enough? Cricket is a huge sport in India. Young children will no doubt watch the game. And while one can make the argument that children can also watch films, but it's so much more worse because it's not some fantasy world. It's really taking place.
If they really want to put on a show why not some modest performances BW style that is not specifically all females. After all we always see stage performances in almost every media event. Or halftime like performances with songs and just dancers performing.
What that picture portrays is just completely sexist. If people don't get why some women are not not happy with this, well then I don't know what else to say.
And on another point. I don't think it's going to make these men any less rowdy when they get out of the stadium. If anything, it will just make them even more a headache for the women on the streets.
Portmanteau,
By the way I like your name, (think Charles Dodgson/Lewis Caroll). Mostly agree with what you say. I guess most people here would apply the First Amendment/freedom of speech lens to debates of this kind. I don't know how familiar you are with Indian law, but the legal treatment of freedom of expression here is not even remotely similar to the almost blanket protection Americans enjoy under the First Amendment.
Yes, harrasment existed in India well before the cheerleaders set their boot-clad feet here, and will do so well after they are gone. I also agree with your point about Bollywood objectfying women at least for the past 30 years. So is this to be a defense of objectification then? I think Helen jiggling assets in her sequinned outfits was considerably more benign compared to the artistic endeavours of Yana Gupta and Co. Again, that's just an opinion.
The Indecent Representation of Women Act is still very much on the law books -- and its a pretty potent tool in the hands of censorship-minded judges.
Most of these cheerleaders appear to be non-Indian, so I'm not sure how your argument about job opportunities for Indian women applies here. Anyways I think the general consensus here is that harrasment is something that Indian women just have to grin and bear.
Just wanted to throw my two cents into the ring --
1) There's no question that cheerleading is, fundamentally, sexist. Indeed, the reason I linked to this photo is to highlight what I felt was a strangeness in the scene. Thousands of men (and a few women and children), behind a cage (though admittedly, the cage is there to protect spectators from the ball). In front of them, a few scantily dressed foreign women performing. The strangeness of the scene could be comic, or it could be disturbing.
2) I do think globalization is a fact worth talking about, and this is yet another example of it. Naturally, not everything associated with the phenomenon is going to be to everyone's taste. But the cheerleaders here are only the latest in a long line of phenomena showing the coarseness of global mass culture: think of the foreign women in all the songs in Hindi films these days, for instance. Before that, the fetishization of Baywatch and "FTV". And even further back, "Hunterwali."
Nayagan,
You are hopeless. Aiyyoo samii!! Why did I hijack Nayagan's humour carnival? In all fairness, I agree this was a humor thread -- I just had the naivete to think people would actually care to read what I had to say, and sacrifice humor for a few minutes. Thank you for disabusing me of this notion.
You may continue the caption competition now. Its of earth-shaking importance and vital to the well-being of those with a gigantic sense of entitlement.
I don't know how familiar you are with Indian law, but the legal treatment of freedom of expression here is not even remotely similar to the almost blanket protection Americans enjoy under the First Amendment.
the indian constitution is thought to be the one of best written constitutions (esp the section on fundamental rights, including the very novel cultural rights that indians have; directive principles of state policy which unlike the rights are not enforceable), and the makers are known to be very eclectic in their choice of other model constitutional documents. unfortunately, the spirit of the constitution and the sanctity are absent in public life, although the supreme court is relatively well-regarded (in light of the general problems of the entire judicial system) in its interpretation of the constitution. it is probably more activist wrt american courts. since the constitution is not that permeable in daily life, expecting moral guidance for the public from that source is probably a pipe dream.
given that i'm an indian citizen (and for whatever little that counts), i'd rather that indian society take its time in figuring out how we want to deal with sexual expression in the media and public performance, rather than impose censorship from above. i think its anti-democratic to have non-elected persons filter what the public gets to see. in any case, the censor board has far too much arbitrary power in india, and its main concern seems to be cutting politically contentious stuff rather than deal with the gratuitous skin show. i do agree that american legal norms are not appropriate in the indian context. that doesn't mean i think that censorship is appropriate for india. given how good the bootleg market is in the desh, censorship will probably be unsuccessful in any case.
what would good is a high-quality debate on cheerleading. as amardeep points out, cheerleading is inherently a sexist activity. that is a good reason for wanting to remove it from indian public life (rather than that it contradicts some amorphous indian values that only some people in society endorse -- which i think it is a terrible reason, or that it will promote violence against women which doesn't seem to be supported by evidence).
oh and preeti, aren't the redskins cheerleaders there to train some indian women? at least that is what i thought, but i may be mistaken.
Amardeep,
Cage is not there to protect spectators from the ball rather it protects players from missile attacks from the spectators and also stop spectators from running in the ground.
90 · retorts said
[q]uality of discussion here fell off heavily when Manish left and it's even more pronounced now that Anna doesn't even post anymore. I
That is an ungracious things to say (even if you think it's true). I am all for your right to defend Preeti and I respect your point of view, but denigrating current bloggers is uncalled for. (I'm saying this without anger and with humility) If you feel that the quality of discussion or blogging here is below par -- just don't come to Sepia. Manish is great, and luckily, available gratis at ultrabrown.
93 · de-luker said
The point is that it does not need to be transfered over to cricket and sports.
It all started with Mandira Bedi, to give due credit to a swadeshi innovation.
91 · rob said
I just didn't want to go so far as to outlaw "ogling." ;-)
Yes, I know you're the sole source of income for the massive ogling lobby here in DC :)
It is not wrong for women to want to be cheerleaders, if they are able to make a considered decision, but it is wrong for men to leer.
If it's common knowledge that cheerleading is an objectifying role, why is it wrong for men to act in the way, the women are dressing/acting are intending to elicit in the first place. In fact, if you look at the history of 'cheerleading' all cheerleaders were originally men, and their job was to rowl up their team and take the opposing team out of their game. So the introduction of women, one could safely say was the element of sexuality given the movements and uniforms.
77 · Topcat said
Preeti
Your white girl=obsenity=empowerment equation doesnt make sense. Obscenity is not empowerment.
Apparently you dont seem to have a problem with homegrown obscenity (raunchy music videos/wet rain dances LOL) but with imported ones.
White girls are not obscene. It is our south asian media that paints them as the stereotypical bikini babes. They deal their own problems in the west.
Those gora memsahibs, (because that's what they still are), are not. They can retire into the safety and protection of their air-conditioned Tucsons and their five-star rooms. Women like me cannot.
You sound like a character from a pre-independence period movie. LOL
first thought that comes to mind:
i hope the cheerleaders wore their sunscreen and got their malaria and tetanus shots.
103 · HMF said
So the introduction of women, one could safely say was the element of sexuality given the movements and uniforms.
ok HMF, next time i wear a low-cut dress to the bar, you can say i asked for it.
SP (#47) I think 'gori chamri' is a better and more correct term than 'safed chamra' in this context.
97 · portmanteau said
94 · Preeti saidI don't know how familiar you are with Indian law, but the legal treatment of freedom of expression here is not even remotely similar to the almost blanket protection Americans enjoy under the First Amendment.
the indian constitution is thought to be the one of best written constitutions
Yup this is a humour thread .., but this has to be the best joke so far.
Seriously though, preeti is correct, with all the caveats the first amendment effectively does not exist in India.
2) Nothing in sub-clause (a) of clause (1) (this refers to freedom of speech --DD) shall affect the operation of any existing law, or prevent the State from making any law, in so far as such law imposes reasonable restrictions (wtf is reasonable --DD) on the exercise of the right conferred by the said sub-clause in the interests of the sovereignty and integrity of India, the security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality, or in relation to contempt of court, defamation or incitement to an offence (they missed out the kitchen sink, but not much else--DD) )
(The perception of the "greatness" of Indian constitution is basically the result of the brainwashing we are put through. The US constitution is short sweet, clear and adaptable (living constitution). The Indian constitution is lenghty, full of contradictions, muddled and horribly inflexible. Excepts from the constitution read well because they are basically rip-offs of other constitutions
e.g.. it starts this way
"WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN
SOCIALIST[1] SECULAR[1] DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens:
JUSTICE, social, economic and political;
LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;
EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;
and to promote among them all
FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation;
IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, do HEREBY
ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." (note the horrible bureaucratized amalgamation of the US constitition's preamble and the frenchs constition's motto)
If you start read the document as a whole and you will soon start to have a whole bunch of "WTF?!" moments. If interested the constitution is available here http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/welcome.html
Rahul S and Topcat,
Leave me alone. I shan't be posting on Sepia any more. It appears to have become a forum where men like you with no desire to understand another point of view get to substitute debate with slander.
I don't wish to be harassed online -- I get enough of it in real life.
Are you only this aggressive online or is this how you always deal with contrary points-of-view -- bile-filled and venomous it may be, but its school-boyish nevertheless. I see that you have a lot of growing up to do, and I'm not being sarcastic.
There's very little point taking on someone when their reasoning is rooted in so much hate.
Some American ass for the Desi mass.
Nayagan
I see you are also swollen with rage over the treatment of women in Bangalore temples. Why don't you write a jeremiad against whitey cheermongers as well?in fact, i recommend jumping into every post mentioning A)uniforms, B)women, C)cricket, D)whitey and then tying it all together so the people who took this picture as platform for humor can repetitively smack themselves in the forehead while muttering, "Aiyoooo saamyyyyy! Why did I have to cursed with a sense of humor? It has debased women all round the world."
[INSULT DELETED].
[INSULT DELETED] I've seen PG in all her reincarnations down from the original version and that girl, I'm quite certain, is not PG - the tone is completely different. This isn't even your post anyway - and so what if it's a humor thread? Others have a right to express their opinion about this photo - and I find it a disturbing picture as well. Lord knows how often Indian women get those looks on the street as well - and unfortunately they are not behind a cage.
112 · Meena said
[INSULT DELETED].
why don't you read my next comment, hmm? maybe it's because you magically misplace literacy as soon as you're angered? "Preeti and PG" in your world must be tantamount to to "Preeti is PG." Should we start using a different font here? Would that help?
Quivering lumps of molten rage, hear me well, your emotion is better spent fighting would-be molesters with hands and feet. Who knows, maybe you could secure gov't sanction and start neutering every boy you see on the street--they are, as you say, just potential molesters, right? The problem is that dire, right? Go forth ye fearsome avengers, and snip with impunity!
Rage? As far as I can see, I've only seen ONE massive overreaction to a comment objecting to the premise of the caption contest. Guess who that was, huh? Yep. Maybe you are the one who needs to, I don't know, take a class on comphrehensive reading skills. Because as far as I can see the OP didn't implicate ALL men as potential molestors - her post seem to be merely written out of frustration with daily harassment. By the tone of your comments here, which have shocked me, honestly I don't know how you are even allowed to guest-blog here. It certainly doesn't allow for a good atmosphere for friendly discourse.
114 · Meena said
I don't know how you are even allowed to guest-blog here.
Whether it's the Saffron Brigade or the Moral Majority, my words anger far more prudes than just you--join the crowd and keep coming back to e-froth your frustration with such a hostile environment. Friendly discourse is the product of loyalty pledges and planted questioners in sham townhalls--not anything meaningful or productive. But that's beside the point--a caption, humorous or not, is at most a few lines of wit--not a paragraph. In pretty much every other caption post, people have understood the premise and commented (to our mutual enjoyment) brilliantly.
Perhaps next time we should use a picture of a nice fuzzy bunny riding a candy-coated choo-choo train to Post-Conflictville.
ok HMF, next time i wear a low-cut dress to the bar, you can say i asked for it.
Is this a position you've always held or are you backtracking here as well?
109 · DizzyDesi said
(wtf is reasonable --DD)
that is not an unusual restriction on freedom of speech, DD. you're quoting the preamble which not strictly a part of the constitution -- it is not enforceable and is just an introduction to what follows. i don't how 'reasonable' is interpreted by indian courts -- but the the place to see the relevant definition is part 3, the fundamental rights section (all is available in wikipedia). in any case, how well-written the constitution is an opinion -- i just happen to share it with some people. i regret that in india the constitution does not enjoy a stronger connection with the public -- although it contains some pretty progressive legislation. not all of it is great -- but i won't trash it just because it is indian or i have been 'brainwashed' into thinking is virtuous, as you seem to assume.
and here is another example of restraints on speech (specifically in the US constitution).
PS: wtf moments are all well -- constitutions are historically grounded, and reflect the prejudices of their makers as well as all the compromises made when they were written. so yes, sure things will seem anachronistic 50-60 years on, but that doesn't mean i'm willing to condemn the entire document. btw, this guy, charles beard, had some wtf moments of his own with the US constitution. his research is very well-regarded and very interesting -- one of the best examples of early modern economic history.
Folks, first and foremost, PLEASE DO NOT INSULT ONE ANOT