As the father of a blended desi it will be informative to hear from those of mixed backgrounds.

My wife studied Bharatanatyam for many years and from my conversations with her Telugu friends it seems like it's a rite of passage for South Indian girls. I'm already being told by my mother-in-law that Asha will be taking Bharatanatyam, to which I reply "it will be great training for lacrosse (my sport)..."

It's a beautiful dance form. Hopefully if all things go well in the next month Asha's Dad will be Asha's and Anjali's Dad....

I have seen the great Bala herself (Aniruddha's grandmother) dance the song that is in this video of Aniruddha and it remains etched in my memory till today, esp the devotion with which she danced. Hers is a style that needs some getting used to, and different from the more common schools of Bharatanatyam. (Kalakshetra, Pandanallur etc.) Thanks for writing about this.

Congratulations Asha's (and soon to be Anjali's) dad! And very best wishes.

:)

That's the first time I've seen a publication cite someone as half-*nationality*. Usually, it would be written as him being the son of an American father....

Though technically since he spends half a year in India and presumably half in the U.S. it makes sense culturally. But I don't recall ever seeing it used--half American.

He sings while dancing as well, which threw me off a bit. But, again, this could be entirely due to my own lack of knowledge. His hand movements are beautiful though…I encourage anyone with a bharatanatyan background to please take a look and share your thoughts.

Would you like "Evil-but-Correct Nayagan" or "Felicitous-Because-He-Knows-Better Nayagan" to comment here?

Not a hard call--definitely "Evil-but-Correct Nayagan"!!
Plus, in Tamil as well as English--I need to keep up my practice!!

from my conversations with her Telugu friends it seems like it's a rite of passage for South Indian girls.

No wonder I always felt isolated from other Indian girls growing up... I never took bharatnatyam! (If only that were the only reason :P) All joking aside, I've never seen singing/mouthing of words during Bharatnatyam performances, but perhaps that's because I haven't seen this particular style. I feel like it takes away from his facial expressions/gestures, though.

Bharatanatyam has become the de rigueur ballet class of the Indian diaspora. All the little desi girls go through it while in elementary school, but very, very few continue on beyond that. The biggest roadblock are our bharatanatyam teachers, mostly first generation Indians who were trained by serious gurus back home in the traditional way, with an emphasis on learning and perfection rather than performing and sharing.

My daughter went to two different schools where the teachers would not allow most of the students to participate in the school's performances for parents because the girls, in their estimation, weren't ready yet. So the kids went through years of dance drill every Saturday without ever tasting the reward of putting on beautiful costumes and make-up and performing on stage for their family and friends. Ridiculous!

However, for many years, my daughter did attend one great school in Chicago which understood the parental and community aspects of this enrichment program for kids, which is all bharatanatyam in the US is, and should be. That school, thanks to the vision of the teacher and with a little help from us board members, has become a major force in the community. She is putting little desi kids on stage at top venues such as the Museum of Natural History and Chicago Public Library. What an experience for the kids, not to mention the overworked parents who dutifully drive their little children to dance class every Saturday through the freezing Chicago winter!

My advice to all bharatanatyam teachers out there - please, don't lose your perspective. You are offering an enrichment program for little kids, not recruiting raw talent to your gurukul. Sure, a few will become near professionals, but your real contribution to the community would still be the thousands of second and third generation Indians who, thanks to you, learned a little something of their roots and traditions while growing up in a vast ocean of cultural anonymity called the US of A.

(My populist theory on the subject does not necessarily reflect my knowledge of the Indian classical art forms.)

Knight is fluent in Tamil, his mother’s language, and spends half a year in India, performing and learning from aunts and cousins who had worked with his mother.

That is a big deal for a half ABCD considering most full ABCDs dont even speak their parent's language. Tamil women seem to hold on to their culture even after marrying outside community. Hema Malini married the punjabi Dharmendra but her children speak Tamil and not punjabi. My observation is that the number of tamil women marrying outside community is very high (infact its skewed) compared to other desi communities. I wonder why?

Hema Malini married the punjabi Dharmendra but her children speak Tamil and not punjabi.

There are kids in Punjab who don't speak Punjabi. Hema Malini's daughters couldn't even really speak Hindi...this despite growing up in Mumbai...now the one who's trying hard to build up her Bollywood career (Esha Deol) has practiced and practiced and hired tutors and what not, and can finally speak Hindi...for the sake of her acting career of course. Hrithik Roshan was another who needed to hire tutors when he launched his acting career...a childhood lived in Mumbai wasn't enough.

As for Tamils, quite a few seem to manage to preserve the language amongst their younger generation...but many do not. It's a common northern Indian perception that southern Indians are more proud of their languages and make sure to pass them on, but I think the ground reality is that they probably do so at rates similar to other Indians.

That is a big deal for a half ABCD considering most full ABCDs dont even speak their parent's language.

THAT I fully agree with.

Hmm...interesting. His style is quite different from the more common styles seen today, but the singing (mouthing of lyrics) is quite common in traditional Bharatanatyam - you are supposed to sign along, and was (is) easier to do when most people who learnt dance also learnt music.

Floridian, regarding your interpretation of what learning bharatanatyam should be like in the US, I am one of those who really dislike the new(er) tendency for every elementary school aged girl of Indian origin to be in a dance class of some kind. Most of the children have very little interest, their families have no background in dance, and no interest in learning about the background or music associated with it, so dance sessions become more-or-less aerobic sessions set to carnatic music and many of the teachers are themselves not very good but see a way to fill a demand and the number of dance schools is mushrooming across the country. I agree that the kids should be allowed to dance at their own dance-school's annual performance, but not with the idea of having half-trained or poorly trained dancers at events at museums etc. Exposing American audiences to shoddily danced Bharatanatyam is not doing anyone a favour in my opinion. I don't see ballet schools putting unskilled learners on stage in public productions - why is Bharatanatyam any different? It is a classical dance form, needing years of training and dedicated practice, not a half-hearted weekend class.

Bitterlemons

A. Knight looks like a great dancer. I have noticed male Bharatnatyam dancers are a bit rare and half desi dancers even more rare.

7 · Floridian said

Bharatanatyam has become the de rigueur ballet class of the Indian diaspora. All the little desi girls go through it while in elementary school, but very, very few continue on beyond that. The biggest roadblock are our bharatanatyam teachers, mostly first generation Indians who were trained by serious gurus back home in the traditional way, with an emphasis on learning and perfection rather than performing and sharing.

Floridian,

all due respect, but i've seen very good samples of the US teacher-taught population (50-70 girls every year at an intensive dance camp for the past 19 years) and the bit about high standards preventing poor little girls from having fun on stage is simply not true. Most teachers are not anywhere near as strict and do not, in general, care to teach proper form (let alone posture!) as their gurus would have been in the Desh. My mother has taught here for over 24 years, and I have accompanied her to both coasts, during the course of which I did find that teachers were driven in large part by pressure from parents to put little Priyanka/Sarika/Radhika on stage within six months, with 18 costume changes so all their friends can come and watch an abomination born of little patience, overbearing parental desires to live vicariously through their child, and general keepin-up-with-the-Patels malarkey that produces the same kind of pick-it-up-and-drop-it mentality that accompanies so many forays into other extracurricular activities.

My daughter went to two different schools where the teachers would not allow most of the students to participate in the school's performances for parents because the girls, in their estimation, weren't ready yet. So the kids went through years of dance drill every Saturday without ever tasting the reward of putting on beautiful costumes and make-up and performing on stage for their family and friends. Ridiculous!

How much were you paying per class? I feel, and correct me if I am wrong here, that you valued the class at a dollar amount far below what you were paying. In that case, I'd say it's cheaper to buy costumes for your kids, take a bunch of pictures, put them on a wall and dissemble for the mutual enjoyment of your guests who inquire and the people in on the joke.

Parents are in a very vulnerable position--and it's not by an evil teacher suctioning cash out of the wallet only to 'keep the little one back'--it's the point at which the parent sees their child in class, or on stage, and doesn't have the critical background to know whether their child is doing well/improving/achieved a particular standard. Some teachers are honest and tell you that they're not ready for the stage--that's okay! In fact the Arangetram is supposed to be your first public performance--and I only reached this standard after 8 years of practice!

If you, however, want a tv-dinner Bharatanatyam (i almost cannot even bring myself to dignify such a travesty with the word), of the sort which quickly shuffles your children into costumes and onto a stage, then so be it. Just do not expect anyone who knows better to watch a video of your child's performance, or even see a picture, and given an honest compliment. Your child will appreciate your going to a teacher who can teach them to be a good dancer--maybe not now, but in a few years when they are mature enough to appreciate it.

You would think, also, that the market would continually select the TV-Dinner teachers as they provide fast-maturing, early-rewards product. But in my own experience I have seen streams of students leave other teachers (in the local area and beyond) and ask my mother, a disciplinarian from the old-school and no shirker of necessary form instruction, if they can take classes from her. She turns down a few hopefuls every week. But does this mean that she doesn't put kids on stage? No. You cannot expect little children to suddenly be able to do all the aduvus in combination with heavy abhinaya when they're simply not co-ordinated enough to do them properly--you compose simpler pieces, set to whatever instrumental music you find appropriate (could be vivaldi...could be a folk song) and choreograph imaginatively with the understanding that your dancers have limited skills. It works.

Most of the time, it does seem like parents push their daughters into Bharatanatyam classes simply because they want to one-up the desi neighbors and be able to brag about how "cultured" their daughters are.

Bharatanatyam is much more work than people make it out to be. You can't just put your daughter in a class, expect her to learn a dance, and then expect her to be performing all over the place. It just doesn't work like that. I've seen painfully awkward performances where you know that the parent (or the grandparent, in some cases) is just pushing the child to perform, and there's no real love for the dance itself. When a dancer truly loves her art, the audience knows.

That being said, I don't think that teachers here are quite so perfectionist when it comes to teaching. Most of them probably take most students who express an interest in learning dance, however, the process of learning dance itself often weeds out those who are motivated by others and those who are self-motivated. It took me 8 years of learning dance before I was ready for my Arangetram, and let me tell you, you definitely need to love the art form to go through that. It's a great experience, but you need to be self-motivated and really love to dance if you want to make it the best performance possible.

My daughter went to two different schools where the teachers would not allow most of the students to participate in the school's performances for parents because the girls, in their estimation, weren't ready yet. So the kids went through years of dance drill every Saturday without ever tasting the reward of putting on beautiful costumes and make-up and performing on stage for their family and friends. Ridiculous!

I don't think teachers should be obligated to rush students onto the stage. A student's performance does reflect on the teacher, and if a student does poorly, anyone with any sort of dance experience will wonder what's wrong with the teacher for putting someone who obviously isn't ready to perform on stage. As I said before, I have seen extremely awkward performances, where the dancer froze up out of nervousness, got stage fright, or kept forgetting bits of the dance. Heck, I have been that dancer before. For someone who honestly wants to do well, being rushed on stage like that when you don't have the time or the opportunity to perfect the dance, it can be almost traumatizing. Perhaps I'm blowing it out of proportion, but in my 13-year-old mind at the time, I certainly did feel angry about it.

I certainly would not condone the trivializing of a classical art form by letting the young ones prance around on stage to merely fan their parents' egos. Some of you took it to that extreme but that isn't what I said. I am not a cultural ignoramus and do understand Indian classical music, bharatanatyam and kathak.

My comments were directed to the rigid and archaic thinking of many dance teachers who, in my opinion, do not embrace the reality, which is that bharatanatyam is an extracurricular activity for desi children, and that does not devalue the art form. There are American kids learning ballet and the violin, and playing soccer. Should bharatanatyam be regarded as something more unattainable and purer than ballet and classical violin? I would rather 1,000 desi kids experience at least a modicum of bharatanatyam, and perform to the best of their abilities, than relegate 990 of them to years of dance drills without a chance of performing a full dance. Any trainer of any discipline, whether bharatanatyan, ballet, graphic arts, business management or driving a car, will tell you that real-world experience is an essential part of training.

Here's a question for the teachers who disagree with my views. Why are you continuing to accept money from the parents of those 1,000 kids? Why not institute a screening process to accept only the few who show promise and then kick them out of class after a year if they are not Arangetram material? You will have exactly five top-notch kids left in your school, and maybe that's your crowning glory if you have no desire to disseminate a classical art form to the masses and touch the lives of thousands of children.

#13 Nayagan:

How much were you paying per class? I feel, and correct me if I am wrong here, that you valued the class at a dollar amount far below what you were paying.

Since you said your mother was a bharatanatyam teacher, I suppose you will have an opinion on the paltry amount of money being paid for this valuable training. Let me tell you what I paid. It was only $80 per month, but I spent 2 hours every Saturday morning taking my daughter to bharatanatyam class after having put in a 60-hour work week and another 8 hour day coming up before Sunday night. Additionally, I helped out the dance school helping during performances and contributed my business expertise by serving on the board.

The "Patels," as you call the parents, do make sacrifices to expose their little ABD's to our culture, and they should be appreciated by the guardians and providers of our culture rather than arrogantly dismissed as unworthy of the thousand-year old this or that. Here I am not only speaking as a parent but as a bharatanatyam insider who has helped at least one school. Cultural elitism can be cultural suicide.

Nayagan,

Agreed, cent per cent. And you know about that little girl who was enchanted by the costumes, but whose face fell when she turned up for her first dance lesson - Maaum! The girls look so plain!

15 · Floridian said

I certainly would not condone the trivializing of a classical art form by letting the young ones prance around on stage to merely fan their parents' egos. Some of you took it to that extreme but that isn't what I said. I am not a cultural ignoramus and do understand Indian classical music, bharatanatyam and kathak.

Floridian,

extremes? not at all--I HAVE REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE--this the reality I've seen throughout my life. IMO floridian, you lack credibility here to comment on the 'mind-set' of teachers that you've never met, never seen perform (or seen performances of their students). If you don't trust me--that's fine--you're just like the umpteen clueless parents who've tried to bribe my mother into advancing their child from stumbling wonder to arangetram stage without the needed work.

You claim to know what classical Indian dance is--if you did you'd know that the object is not only to become acculturated but attain the proficency necessary to get on stage and perform the full complement of classical pieces. You seem to have skipped the last part of my comment where i explained what is realistic for students who have only a little experience in class--non-classical items.

What you're asking is for them to learn to run before walking which is, obviously, impossible. Performing is not 'real world experience'--a concept which has no corrolary in the performing arts. And yes, Bharatanatyam is different because ballet/soccer/etc did not start out as forms of temple worship and the songs which accompany dancers doing classical items are redolent with references to devotion--is that really packagable into a 3-month, one class per week product? No. How do I know? Real world experience.

guess what, the 'drills' as you put it are the ONLY building blocks of all those fluid movements you see on stage--without the drills, without perfecting Adavus, there is no dance.

And whether you believe it or not, my mother has touched thousands of kids with the gift of acculturation and great form--starting young and emphasizing good instruction brings everyone up to the same basic standard needed for a full performance of classical items.

If your teacher does not clearly lay out what her expectations are (and i'm not talking about your 6yr olds--if you expect it at that age, you're clearly hopeless), it's perfectly reasonable to wonder why she/he accepts your money. Then also wonder if that teacher is teaching full-time, does not have a 'real' job, does not have a spouse/benefactor to pay all the bills. Try being Bharatanatyam teacher when you're dirt poor and raising a child that falls ill every few weeks. Try that and come back with your glibertarian take.

It really depends. In the case of th Knights the father is deeply committed to Indian culture. Here in the US, mixed couples often hail from upper middle class backgrounds and as such are on equal footing in determining how their kids will be raised. From what I have seen the situation is more varied in the UK

My advice to prospective parents: don't take the plunge if you're looking for someone else to do your work for you and don't complain if you didn't do the research and didn't know how long it takes for someone to become a dancer. Blaming it on the teacher is the most cowardly of all possible actions and you drive down the quality of instruction by pressuring teachers to square the circle.

The "Patels," as you call the parents, do make sacrifices to expose their little ABD's to our culture, and they should be appreciated by the guardians and providers of our culture rather than arrogantly dismissed as unworthy of the thousand-year old this or that

yeah, pouring out your heart and soul attempting to get a bunch of pre-pubescent kids to become co-ordinated, teaching them the significance of the songs they are dancing to and arranging costuming, venue, music, lights and all the other logistics that go into peparing an entire class for an annual presentation is really arrogant. What gall. What absolute disregard. I bet every parent would envy the life of a full-time teacher--living at the poverty line just for the privilege of being arrogant towards the parents of their students.

12 · gm said

A. Knight looks like a great dancer. I have noticed male Bharatnatyam dancers are a bit rare and half desi dancers even more rare.

Here is a Sikh male Bharatanatyam dancer I know.

on the subject of identity, as a half-desi (who happens to be the same mix, as A. Knight), how i've identified at different points in my life has depends on a) my home life and b) the community i live in. i think my parents did a pretty good job of blending cultures at home, but the community was monoracial and the nature of childhood is that you always want to fit in, so you play up one side or the other depending on what group you're with.

now that i'm out of college and have met people like me and have lived in international communities, it's easier to identify as both in the outside world, but i know what A. Knight is saying when he says that identifying as both is isolating. if/when you live in homogenous communities, there's always a sense that you'll never quite be completely a part of those communities. in the blending of cultures, something is always lost. most often it's knowing that you belong, and never questioning that you are part of a bigger community. i don't think this is a good or bad thing, it's just the reality.

Looks like old school guru-sishya parampara and the chance to do the arangetram only when you ready is clashing with the needs of instant gratification that is the American milieu for the cultural arts. Could it be that this can be bridged by performances on stage for kids as a group dance to filmi music with classical Bharathanatyam movements without calling it an arangetram? This way the parents are happy and the guru can claim it is not a classical arangetram (individual performance)?

9 · Amitabh said

Hrithik Roshan was another who needed to hire tutors when he launched his acting career...a childhood lived in Mumbai wasn't enough.

Yeah. Hrithik makes sure he replies in English even when the question is posed in hindi for a hindi channel. I feel embarrassed but hey I too speak so much English myself for no reason... oh well.

Hmm...interesting. His style is quite different from the more common styles seen today, but the singing (mouthing of lyrics) is quite common in traditional Bharatanatyam - you are supposed to sign along, and was (is) easier to do when most people who learnt dance also learnt music.

My daughter went to two different schools where the teachers would not allow most of the students to participate in the school's performances for parents because the girls, in their estimation, weren't ready yet. So the kids went through years of dance drill every Saturday without ever tasting the reward of putting on beautiful costumes and make-up and performing on stage for their family and friends. Ridiculous!

Here's a question for the teachers who disagree with my views. Why are you continuing to accept money from the parents of those 1,000 kids?

Could it be that this can be bridged by performances on stage for kids as a group dance to filmi music with classical Bharathanatyam movements without calling it an arangetram? This way the parents are happy and the guru can claim it is not a classical arangetram (individual performance)?

The culture of instant gratification, was my first thought too. That and the concepts of students as consumers/paying customers having to experience the limelight culture (As a parent of 3 kids under the age of 6 (two of whom are extremely shy), I watch with both fascination and horror how parents eagerly push their kids onto the stage as early as possible.).

We laugh and are simultaneously outraged when we hear about an odd surgeon or two in India allowing his/her 15-year old gift-to-the-world to operate on some poor patient. We don't practice medicine when we are only half a doctor either. So why do we expect less when it comes to an ancient dance form that has seemingly become casually accessible to all on a whim? But allopathic medicine is a well-regulated, closely-guarded field. I understand that upholding the dignity of artistic institutions is not as big a priority as fearing for our lives under the care of an incompetent medic. But unfortunately I don't know enough about the arts world in general to give a more appropriate example as comparison. All I instinctively understand is that I disagree with the ability of paying parents to bend rules according to their wish.

So far my kids are happy playing dress up at home with their Disney princess [*shudder*] dress-up clothes and with all my Indian clothes and jewelry. So far they definitely want nothing to do with being on stage. Also, thus far they are neither interested in the Bollywood dance classes offered at the local Indian dance school nor in the Bharatnatyam classes. I don't know when any or all will change. If attitudes and interests do change: Nayagan, where does your mother live?

then why the need to expect such things as putting kids on stage?

Because they know the audience won't be one that will scrutinize very closely or anything like that.

not ridiculous. would you ever think of putting an off-key violinist on stage?

You don't need to be an expert violinist to determine if the violin playing is off-key.

But unfortunately I don't know enough about the arts world in general to give a more appropriate example as comparison.

There really isn't one unless money plays a central factor, which in the US, it doesn't. That is, as long as it's commercial (girls and costumes are pretty) and "indian" enough, that's all that needed for any mainstream targetting.

to and arranging costuming, venue, music, lights

Its time to name drop. Shuba Parmar (sp?) in NJ usually offsets this task to the parents, they used to be in NJ I believe.

Should bharatanatyam be regarded as something more unattainable and purer than ballet and classical violin?

Since when has ballet or classical violin been religious?

Bharatanatyam has a long history of being intertwined with religion, and, as such, shouldn't be trivialized and made into just another hobby or extracurricular activity. It should be appreciated for what it is, for how much work goes into it, and for the tradition that has given birth to it.

You don't need to be an expert violinist to determine if the violin playing is off-key.

Bharatanatyam has a long history of being intertwined with religion, and, as such, shouldn't be trivialized and made into just another hobby or extracurricular activity.

"He is also half American"

Isn't anyone else irritated when 'half-american' is used as a code for half-white as if by default american means white. Unless he's First Nations, the term is not legitimate as an ethnicity. Like saying someone is half-sikh or half-hindu or half- any religion.

32 · da said

"He is also half American"

Isn't anyone else irritated when 'half-american' is used as a code for half-white as if by default american means white. Unless he's First Nations, the term is not legitimate as an ethnicity. Like saying someone is half-sikh or half-hindu or half- any religion.

Half-Gora. Happy?

32 · da said

"He is also half American"

Isn't anyone else irritated when 'half-american' is used as a code for half-white as if by default american means white. Unless he's First Nations, the term is not legitimate as an ethnicity. Like saying someone is half-sikh or half-hindu or half- any religion.

Yes. I'm not irritated, per se. But it did jump out at me. And thus I made a note of it above (#3). I guess, culturally it kinda makes some sort of sense to me. But even then, it just seems off to me. Usually, it would be written as being the son of an American father.... If race and ethnicity were to be expanded upon, then son of a white American father....

(I think he's cute. :))

I certainly admire him, as someone not even fully Indian, for totally embracing this side of his identity so fully and enthusiastically. I'm one of those girls who never took bharatanatyam seriously, and I understand Tamil but don't really speak it, so he's totally putting me to shame. You can tell, though, that his love for this art is genuine, which is really cool to see.

It's interesting that he's embraced it so strongly when so many 2nd-gen 100% Indians are content with mixing both worlds and dabbling in a little of both, but I wonder how much of that might come from his father--as a mridangam player who married into an ethnic family with such strong traditions, he himself seems to have totally embraced the culture, and I wonder if he's just as strong a proponent of it as A's brown mother is. I know western couples who met while working in a foreign country who've embraced that country's culture as part of their "couple identity" and in order to pass that on to their kids...this seems to be kind of like that.

i did not mention the issue of the audience member being an expert.

I know you didn't, because by mentioning it, it completely derails your argument. Because whether or not someone is "prepared to perform" is generally evaluated by the ability of an "average" audience, for someone a dancer to be "off-key" it's not enough to miss a beat here or there, or be sub standard in their abhinaya, they need to trip and roll on the ground a few times and land in the front row for it to be really noticed. That's just the nature of dance given the complexity and nuanced level of understanding one needs to correctly evaluate it, otherwise the evaluation is going to flow down to the lowest common denominator: face, makeup, costumes, jewelry, amount of money paid to artists, size of new jersey auditorium rented, etc...

I'm not saying it should be this way, but a direct comparison to a musical performance is meaningless, because our cochlea are naturally geared to recognize audio harmonics and hence detect "off key" even if we are incapable of reproducing it.

is generally evaluated by the ability of an "average" audience,

should read

"is generally evaluated by the ability of an "average" audience to detect it"

Sure, such "off key" dancers may not be able to perform in the big dance academies in chennai or wherever, but that's not the goal.

Kudos to this ustaad!

I noticed that Indo-American don't really involve themselves much with art, in general. Compared to white Americans, I noticed that many desi guys hardly take up a musical instrument.

Kudos on this guy for embracing his Indian ancestry and cultural identity. I have to shamefacedly admit that my Tamil is terrible and I don't make any effort to improve it. Then again, learning five languages in highschool, is it any wonder? Even in my country there are bharath natyam schools, but not all of them are good. I learned myself for a couple of years, being enchanted as a little girl by the costumes, but losing interest quickly again, as little girls are also wont to do. My sister learned for a longer time, but quit when her favourite teacher of the Indian disciplinarian school migrated back to India. I've known several dancers over time surprisingly, as my mother would often play in arangetrams and other dance performances and my sister and I would tag along. I've seen a huge variety of dancers. Not just desis, but also Dutch, Surinamis and people of other ancestries. I've even known a pair of Russians, mother and daughter. There was a decent mix of men and women as well. Though as a child I looked askance at these examples of cultural appropriation nowadays I find it quite heartwarming, so to say, all these different people showing so much interest in something traditionally Indian. The culture here though is quite different, due to the small scale, it's a much closer nit community. There's none of those scary mass-produced churning out of dance performances I hear about in the USA. Furthermore, I know of at least one dancer who incorporates Western or African-style dances into her bharath natyam performances, along with non-traditional instruments. I think such a small scale allows for more experimentation.

I know you didn't, because by mentioning it, it completely derails your argument. Because whether or not someone is "prepared to perform" is generally evaluated by the ability of an "average" audience, for someone a dancer to be "off-key" it's not enough to miss a beat here or there, or be sub standard in their abhinaya,

32 · da said

"He is also half American"

Isn't anyone else irritated when 'half-american' is used as a code for half-white as if by default american means white. Unless he's First Nations, the term is not legitimate as an ethnicity. Like saying someone is half-sikh or half-hindu or half- any religion.

Agreed. The better description would be half white+half brown=beige

i was using the same standard for both - that of a relative expert

but you asked a question of why parents expect their kids to be on stage when they're "off-key" dancers so to speak, then drew a comparison and said they'd never expect an "off-key" violinist on stage. and I explained why, because as far as they're concerned the audiences can discern the latter much better than the former.

but it doesn't mean that i meant that the 'general' audience was capable of deciding whether or not an artist is prepared to take the stage.

Whether or not you meant it, is irrelevant. it's the way things are, because as I explained, the human audio cortex is naturally capable of computing harmonic frequencies and in general we listen to music much more than we do evaluating facial expressions in bharata natyam dance, and that's the reason why the phenomenon you asked about occurs. So you're question and comparison, while fair, is not realistically "implementable"

not ridiculous. would you ever think of putting an off-key violinist on stage? not everybody who learns bharata natyam gets to a point where they are accomplished enough to perform publicly.

I mean, when you asked this question, wasn't your rationale that because off-key violinists would never be allowed on stage, therefore someone who is equally "off key" in their dance ability shouldn't be allowed on stage either?

What I like about his mixed ethnic parentage is that he has made an effort to learn his native language (this could perhaps be due to a strong cultural push from his mother's side or the necessity driven by a dance career) . Though I understand the need for English as a common language in a multi-cultural American society, I am wary of extinction of a whole body of ethnic langauages in the name of americanization or globalization anywhere.

Those against mixed marriages often cite fear of waning traditions, culture, language, etc., as a reason to date within one’s own ethnic community.

Trying to understand the logic of this statement aloud - I presume by date you mean either marriage or dating with firm desire for marriage in the short-term. If this is not the case then by going through the very process of dating you are trying to negotiate the possible conflicts and understand all the cultural issues involved. So the process itself should take care of all the fears that you have mentioned. Now if you don't take the "dating plunge" at all either because of the pressure of insular parents or your fears and opinions/values/belief then the question valid.
But I agree with you that this is a very personal issue and varies from case to case.

Something interesting I found- apparently some people don't think this boy is doing his mom justice:

(some of the more interesting comments from people purportedly at his concerts)

"Aniruddha’s style is a diluted... version of what was kept sacred within his family for generation. His grandmother earned a name in the US only to be brought to ruins by her spoilt little Diva grandson. Err..Ani, people walked out of your performance the last time I checked when you started screeching on stage imitating the legend that was your grandmother. I bet Bala is turning in her grave as we speak."

"When he tried to dance immediately after this year’s IFAS competition in Balamandir German Hall in T.Nagar, most people left within minutes, and only a dozen of spectators were left wondering what is this man trying to do on the stage, and wondering if they should go home now or relax a bit more as it was the rush hour in Chennai.
I think this was the reason that Ani immediately started biting his lips in agony."

Source: http://sangeethas.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/aniruddha-knight-in-chennai/

I LOVE bharatanatyam, and always admire males who take it up, so I'm really intrigued to hear if anyone's actually seen this dude perform, and if they had the same/different opinion.

I feel where ak and Nayagan are coming from on this (broadly). If we take the example of a musical instrument, then there is no way one is let on stage if you can't play proficiently. That said, "recital" in your first year might mean playing "Ode to Joy" instead of "Rodeo." It's not just because being off-key sounds terrible, it's also because it drags everyone else down (assuming you're playing in a group setting). Dance is VERY similar -- any "performance" is in lock-step with your skill-level. If your child enjoys performing, I vote for enrolling your kid in recreational sports leagues. For longer-term art forms that require a high degree of skill, I don't think it's arrogant to require 2+ years of training before performing.

I certainly admire him, as someone not even fully Indian, for totally embracing this side of his identity so fully and enthusiastically.

When I was younger, I used to think, or at least rationalize, that my "dual" or "hybrid" identity gave me the best of both worlds and it granted me a certain amount of access to each community, while still providing me with an outsiderness (if not that elusive objectivity) that helped me take a frank look at 'em. An old friend of mine, who had come from a small Californian Mennonite community in the '20s, recited a phrase he'd chanced upon in some of their literature, a phrase which he felt summed him up (though not because of the religion, which he soon enough strayed from): in but not of. Unless I'm misunderstanding semantics here, I kinda feel the opposite - I am of two communities, but I don't *quite* fit in. (My mom is north Indian, my dad comes from various strands of central & eastern European Jewry.) I guess there is a certain loneliness to it, but on the other hand I feel it's afforded me an empathy and a yearning that I don't see in even the best-intentioned folks my age. (Which isn't to say I'm better or anything.)

As for "half-American," I sorta cringe, too, when I see that because it does seem to be a stand-in for "half-white." On the other hand, though, I think it could be used somewhat validly to reference nationality, as opposed to ethnicity, and still bear some cultural weight: think of the "divide" - which seems to me to be shrinking, though I could very well see things differently - between Indians and NRIs. Though, then again, there's the idea that just because one isn't of the mainstream cultural identity, that doesn't make one less, say, "Indian." We're still Indian, but a different kind, no less valid is our Indian experience.

The difference for me, given my particular heritages, is that there is still, currently, a living link to India. With my father's side, all of our family (except one lone cousin who was adopted by Catholics during the war and found his way later to Argentina) that lived ended up in the US. My grandfather, who was born in Poland, had no desire to go back - even to visit. (We did end up convincing him.) I don't know if I would call it, then, an obligation I feel to my Indian side, but I feel like it would be wrong for me to ignore this connection; I also have a growing sense of curiosity over my family's history. I was fortunate enough to travel quite frequently throughout my childhood, but I haven't been in a few years and I never learned Hindi.

Anyway. Enough rambling. I will say I am a fan of miscegenation. It's fun having 1/4 Indian, British relatives, as well as self-described "hapa haole pino cashew" cousins.

PS We had samosas and, if I remember correctly, tandoori chicken at my bar mitzvah.

Dance is VERY similar -- any "performance" is in lock-step with your skill-level

Again, you're neglecting the audience evaluation component. You can't talk of someone being "on stage" without speaking about the audience they're in front of (because an audience is implied, if they're just on a raised platform in an empty auditorium, then yes the comparison to musical instruments hold)

and I explained why, because as far as they're concerned the audiences can discern the latter much better than the former.

So you're question and comparison, while fair, is not realistically "implementable"

i think the fundamental difference between our arguments is that you seem to think 'ready' is relative to the audience before whom one is performing,

No, it's not even that. You asked a question about why parents are willing to put their kids on stage in a BN performance, when they wouldn't do the same if for musical instruments. And I gave you the practical, realistic answer.

It's completely connected to the fast food, needy, I need to have something to "show" for all this time I spent (when "all this time" = 3 months) attitude.

It's not that I fundamentally believe they are ready, because audiences cannot discern they are substandard performers, nor am I saying their readiness is solely determined by the audience reaction. I'm just giving you a practical reason for why it occurs in one setting (BharataNatyam) and doesn't in the other (musical performance).

but i still don't think it takes away from the fact that floridian thinks the children should go on stage at some point before their professor,

but I see his point too. It's a *shitload* of effort to take kids to these sort of classes. This isn't India, where there's a teacher on every block. Sure, this doesn't mean quality standards should be discarded willy nilly, but to expect someone to put time, effort, and money into training their kid for a particular art, and have them sit by idle while the teacher says, "yea maybe in 5 years she'll be ready, by the way keep paying me money." is not very realistic either.

but I see his point too. It's a *shitload* of effort to take kids to these sort of classes. This isn't India, where there's a teacher on every block. Sure, this doesn't mean quality standards should be discarded willy nilly, but to expect someone to put time, effort, and money into training their kid for a particular art, and have them sit by idle while the teacher says, "yea maybe in 5 years she'll be ready, by the way keep paying me money." is not very realistic either.

kids are allowed to perform musically at very basic levels.

Yeah, but they're not off-key.

Some people in my family have practiced BN for 25+ years, in India, in the real traditional style. I've been to a few arangetrams and been bored completely out of my mind. but I know that it's a highly refined art form, even if I can't 'figure it out' so to speak.

From what I've seen BN seems to be one of the 'less fun' dance forms out there. Kathak you can spin around a billion times, Odissi you wiggle around like you've got a worm crawling on you, and Im not too familiar with Kathakalli and Kuchapudi styles. But BN, especially for south indian families is a pretty big staple of 'culture' which explains the push for every litle girl to do it.

Since I am being quoted, I am back to reiterate my argument.

1. No, it is NOT about "Gimme my money's worth. Put my kid on stage." I don't know how many desi parents you folks hang out with, but desi people are usually far too respectful of teachers of any type to make self-gratifying ego-driven demands.

2. It IS about properly contextualizing BN training in the desi diaspora. The local BN school in the suburbia is not a gurukul but an extracurricular activity for ABD kids, and of course, one that connects them with their heritage. That does not devalue bharatanatyam. In my opinion, grass roots popularity always enhances classical art forms. Now, the question is, since it IS taken as an extracurricular "enrichment" activity, what is the best way to execute it for the sake of the children? Well, take a page from ballet, classical violin and the martial arts, all extracurricular activities rooted in traditions of their own. These programs do give kids periodic gratification and positive reinforcement through performances. They don't take perfection and meritocracy to extremes as "some" BN teachers are prone to do.

3. It IS about understanding that performances can take place at all levels. Create a simpler dance for the first-year disciples, a slightly more intricate one for the second-year disciples and so on. And if a first-year student is still klutzy and will reflect poorly on the entire school, give her more time. But to say that a BN student must practice 8 years before being considered for a performance, even a group performance, even in a simple outreach program meant for friends and family, and that some students shall never perform, is cultural Nazism that our community could do without. AK said she was deemed ready to perform after 3 years. Fine! But 8 years? Or never? That's what I was objecting to.

I will give you a good example of how to groom kids in the fine arts. The BN teacher my daughter learned from once did a Ramayana episode for the parents, and she had the five and six-year old students play the monkeys following Hanuman. There was some BN involved for the little ones, but not quite enough to make the kids look foolish and the teacher incompetent.

4. Finally, as a 56-year old first-generation desi, I have a deep insider knowledge of how screwed up we, the gatekeepers of desi culture, can be when it comes to training the ABD's. Anybody been in Bal Vihar? I have been a loyal parent and supporter of Bal Vihar for over a decade, but you can't tell me that it couldn't stand some modernizing and re-contextualizing to make it even more relevant and useful to our ABD kids. That's my entire point about BN as well.

5. Anybody familiar with the classical vocal schools popping up Pundit Jasraj's name? Ask them if they make a young kids go through 8 years of "riya" before letting her single a simple raag with very little "kaam" in front a small group of parents.

Gotta go. I am catching a flight to Delhi in less than 18 hours. With some luck, I will be at the Habitat Centre, Siri Fort or India Internatioal Centre later this week watching a highly professional bharatanatyam performance. Ha, ha!

Yeah, but they're not off-key.

From what I've seen BN seems to be one of the 'less fun' dance forms out there.

#55 Floridian

8 years of "riya"

Sorry, it is riyaz (practice in classical music).

Floridian:

You're point 2 is essentially, "gimme my money's worth", in not so many words. and I agree with it completely.

Anybody been in Bal Vihar? I have been a loyal parent and supporter of Bal Vihar for over a decade, but you can't tell me that it couldn't stand some modernizing and re-contextualizing to make it even more relevant and useful to our ABD kids. That's my entire point about BN as well.

Bal Vihar is sort of like "sunday school" the way I understand it, correct? That's a bit different than art forms, but I agree with your general point.

But do other half-desis feel the same sense of loneliness and isolation?

Yes. I do.

54 · HMF said

From what I've seen BN seems to be one of the 'less fun' dance forms out there. Kathak you can spin around a billion times, Odissi you wiggle around like you've got a worm crawling on you, and Im not too familiar with Kathakalli and Kuchapudi styles. But BN, especially for south indian families is a pretty big staple of 'culture' which explains the push for every litle girl to do it.

It's the hardest to learn properly because of the heavy theory component--your descriptions of the other two styles is laughable. Is mr. anecdote finally running out ammo?

in fact, other than AK and black cat, I haven't seen a single person comment who's actually taken more than a few classes.

As for classifying BN as an extra-curricular, I'm absolutely against it. A true gurukulam, a forest-academy, can't exist in suburbia but I'm really aware of no teachers who specifically advertise their acculturation capabilities--if they did, there would be grounds for the argument that it's been sold as an extra-curricular when it's really not and parents who feel their commute and payment are excessive have been shafted as a result.

The reality is that BN has become defined as an extracurricular by parents, not teachers, and the resultant feedback effect of shitty instruction and low standards is evident in the very poor standards i see every year at my mother's camp. A camp, btw, which explicitly advertises it's gurukulam nature and also turns away late registrants for both the beginner and advanced camps. The message I take away? Parents have been fed an inferior product, based on the expectations of their community, and a backlash has started which manifests itself in a small but rising demand for true gurukulam instruction.

Putting kids on stage in non-classical items, custom choreography of items not in Telugu/Tamil/Kannada, and other adjustments don't seem to mollify the crafty consumers that form the parent brigade. If you have an annual presentation, the parents want 2. If you have a Spring Presentation, parents wonder why there isn't a Fall and Sumer presentation as well. Kids also perform whenever they want to. For every school-wide performance my mother arranged, each child would perform at least 3-4 times 'on their own.' (meaning consulting mom for every last detail). Let's not pretend that the teacher is always the arbiter of when/where a child may perform--especially during the high-school years.

Malathi,

Amma does not take kutties as students any more. After 35 years of wrangling with parents like Floridian, the returns have diminished to the point where the kids are cute but the act of instruction becomes a chore made only more difficult by antagonistic parents. My advice is to find a young teacher with patience.

55 · Floridian said

3. It IS about understanding that performances can take place at all levels. Create a simpler dance for the first-year disciples, a slightly more intricate one for the second-year disciples and so on. And if a first-year student is still klutzy and will reflect poorly on the entire school, give her more time. But to say that a BN student must practice 8 years before being considered for a performance, even a group performance, even in a simple outreach program meant for friends and family, and that some students shall never perform, is cultural Nazism that our community could do without. AK said she was deemed ready to perform after 3 years. Fine! But 8 years? Or never? That's what I was objecting to.

That's what I said earlier and what you conveniently failed to read. An arangetram is special and should remain so. A performance of a few items--not the seven that traditionally comprise an Arangetram--is completely different. I don't know of a single teacher out there who refuses to put kids on stage for a performance of the latter variety. You're taking words and putting them into my argument when it's really a case of you not understanding what an Arangetram is--the student's first public performance of 7 classical items in which they traditionally arrange all the details of that performance. Nowadays, the logistics requirement is generally dropped, but it is a graduation of sorts.

I have to agree with Nayagan et al here. Bharathanatyam is a 'sadhana', a kind of yoga. It is not a matter of learning a few steps and lo behold, you are ready for the stage. If that is what you are looking for, there are umpteen dance schools catering to those types teaching bollywood and folk dances. With bharathanatyam, it comes from the heart. Unless you can feel it and emote it, you are not a B.N. dancer. That is why you go through years of rigorous training. Once the form is set, hands and feet and eyes move automatically to what your heart has started feeling. Teachers/students can cater to different kinds of audiences. There could be an annual day where the kids get to perform for their parents. This is in no way near to an actual performance. When a teacher puts up a show for others, it is a showcase and she is absolutely right in insisting only the well-trained ones get a chance. When someone asks me about learning (wanting to), this is what I say. Unless you are ready to put in the effort long term, and are willing to wait for the much delayed gratification, don't do it. I usually teach the other kind, filmi and folk. I recently taught a semi-classical one, and believe me, it is hard work. Harder than being a parent on the sidelines.

As to odissi or kathak being less rigorous, talk to a 'good' teacher of those styles to see the difference. For that matter, even ballet as it is supposed to be.

Last year, one of the girls I know went through her arangetram. It was extreme hard work on both sides. A full summer of 3 hour training every day without break. I had seen her dancing the previous year and the difference was obvious even to a lay person. She herself wrote about it to say how she had started, hating it, hating her teacher but pulling through to eventually respect all that hard work. And we could all see her enjoying the performance and feeling every beat. That is what a mother should want for her kids, in my humble opinion. If not, don't bother with 3 hour saturday sessions.

your descriptions of the other two styles is laughable.

They weren't descriptions, rather examples of why some may consider them more "fun".

As to odissi or kathak being less rigorous, talk to a 'good' teacher of those styles to see the difference. For that matter, even ballet as it is supposed to be.

I love the underlying sentiment behind this statement... "even the white people dance is hard"

55 · Floridian said

With some luck, I will be at the Habitat Centre, Siri Fort or India Internatioal Centre later this week watching a highly professional bharatanatyam performance.

Delhi, REPRESENT!
shubh yatra, floridian.

HMF: That was not my thinking. I was not belittling it. It has been extremely commercialized with every girl taking lessons for less than an hour per week. My girls go through it. A serious ballerina goes through a rigorous training much more than bharathanatyam dancers do. At least from what I have read about the professionals. The way my girls do it is laughable. 1 hour session every week; a performance at the end of the year, well-costumed and dolled-up to gratify parents and grandparents, exactly what some parents are expecting from BN.

Try being Bharatanatyam teacher when you're dirt poor and raising a child that falls ill every few weeks. Try that and come back with your glibertarian take.

Nayagan, you have a fine appreciation for the financial compulsions of the teacher, but are rather dismissive of the reasons for which parents may want to enroll their kids into Bharatnatyam lessons. Of course, I agree with you that children who learn Bharatnatyam cannot be ready for major performances or their arangetram without the requisite hard work and practice over several years, or the teacher's willing consent.

However, there are all sorts dance curricula, including elite tracks for various activities young children. First, many young kids may need to explore a variety of options before they can find their niches. It is completely unrealistic to expect that all kids will be committed performers, especially as they may have not even expressed an interest in the activity on their own. On the other hand, concerned desi parents may often want to expose their kids to Indian culture more broadly to their kids and may use kids' natural tendencies toward free movement and physical expression to get them interested in larger issues/concepts through Bharatnatyam. Or cultural reasons may not be into play at all -- parents might just want to teach kids that proficiency comes only through practice. Or they might want them to develop patience and focus by following direction for an hour or two. Or get them away from the TV. Most parents are not looking for their kids to become elite performers. Yes, they want their kids to appear cultured in front of their friends as well as feel proud of their performance, but I'm sure most of them recognize that their kid is simply not a Birju Maharaj in the making.

In this case, dance schools should be upfront. There is no harm in kids learning dance as a hobby or exploring it as a creative interest before moving on to something that fits their personality and interests better. Dance teachers could cater to two audiences -- separate those students who are hobbyists and are willing only to make a limited commitment from those who are serious dancers who look at dance as a calling or a vocation. This reduces reduces hypocrisy in the parent-teacher interaction -- both agree that given the child's commitment and promise she might benefit more from a less intense and less selective environment. The teacher then is completely justified in being selective about the more 'serious'/elite students she chooses, and impose much more rigorous curricular requirements. She is completely within her bounds to delay public performance because the parents/child now know that dance lessons now have a completely different meaning for the child - it is not a hobby, but a major life project.

This way dance is not restricted to few students, but many more are allowed to gain general appreciation and practical experience (and teachers can make a living without moral posturing and contortions, on their own terms which are publicly known and respected). At the same time, we do not dilute the classical experience for those committed children and teachers for whom dance is a major life project. I totally agree that compromising standards will be a disservice to such people. Some of us are Juilliard material, while others among us will be completely satisfied playing a ditty or two among family and friends. There is a place for all of us! [sentimental, but possibly true]

PS: Nayagan -- my favorite is the 'empathic and correct' Nayagan, if it makes a whit of a difference.

A serious ballerina goes through a rigorous training much more than bharathanatyam dancers do.

Are you saying a serious ballerina goes through more rigour than a serious BN dancer?

As a DBD who has attended Bharatanatyam classes back in Madras for about 6-7 years and as a person who has been learning here in the mid-west now (switched to a different form - Mohiniattam) for about 5-6 years, this subject of learning classical Indian dance in the US is particularly close to my heart. It became all the more important to me once I had a child (and now another on the way), because I really really hope that my children learn to appreciate the forms, if not actually learn and delve deep into it.
Nayagan, I agree entirely with everything that you have said on this topic.

Seems to me that 9 out of 10 desi parents (no, I have not done research on this - just what I have seen in several dance schools) in the US seem to be fixated on the notion that their child (mostly daughter) has to go on stage in the earliest possible time. Everyone wants to claim that their daughter is the best out there, or shows signs of being a prodigy - it's just ridiculous. Parents need to ask themselves exactly why they want their child to learn a classical dance form.

Floridian says:
These programs do give kids periodic gratification and positive reinforcement through performances

This is what parents seem to want - "periodic gratification and positive reinforcement through performances"! That is not the way learning of our classical art forms works! Periodic (and instant) gratification and Indian classical dance forms do not go together. If you want your child to be on stage, to put up a show for your family and friends, then find a teacher who will cater to that desire - and I can see there are plenty of teachers who do that - it surely brings in lots of $$$.

I think there is a certain soak-in period for learning any tye of art form. That is the time it requires a student to get a feel for the art, learnt to learn it, feel comfortable with it and then actually feel confident enough to present an item on stage. This varies from student to student, obviously, but for most students, this phase usually runs to several years.
When my brother started learning how to play the flute (he was 6, I think), for the first several weeks, no note would emanate from his flute - just the sound of air. :) When I started learning Bharatanatyam, for a long time, I felt awkward - did not feel I could coordinate my hands and legs properly. And even after 3-4 years, I was far too shy to dance in front of any guest. At the school where I studied (not the dance school), I was given small roles at each annual day program and I was usually very shy and had to be coaxed into it with my teachers showing me the wonderful costumes and all the lovely jewelry. :)
Each child is so different and the pace of learning is so varied - I am constantly surprised (and annoyed) when I see parents trying to literally push their little ones on stage way before they are ready for it. Also, such parents - how many times do they take their kids to watch performances of professionals? What kind of exposure do these children have, to classical dance forms? And yet, why are the expectations so high?!

BTW, I am not at all surprised that Aniruddha has taken to dance - his mother and grandmother was deep into it. And in this clip mentioned, his father is the one playing the mridangam for the item.

And HMF,#54,
Apparently you have not actually learnt/danced any of these dance forms! To say that one appears easier than the other is just not right. Perhaps each form exercises different muscles, but to say that Kathak is easier than Bharatanatyam is not correct. I learnt Bharatanatyam earlier and now learn Mohiniattam. Most people would think that Mohiniattam is a lot easier but they are wrong! It only *appears* easier but in reality, requires a lot more grace, a lot more control in movement and is no way easier. It is different and it would be wrong to compare the two. What is common is that both (and all other classical art forms) require lots and lots of practice.

54 · HMF said

Kathak you can spin around a billion times

the footwork is not easy -- that is not random spinning. some practitioners wear ghungroos with a hundred tiny bells or more -- but their movement is so precise that you hear just one single, clean sound in the ending flourish of a sequence.

Apparently you have not actually learnt/danced any of these dance forms! To say that one appears easier than the other is just not right

Of course I haven't. What I'm telling you is, that BN doesn't come off as "fun", as an artform, irrespective of which one is harder or easier. I never said that one is harder or easier than the other.

HMF: My knowledge of ballet is limited to what I have read in books, but I do know that they have to be extremely flexible meaning training every day. I know of BN dancers who are excellent without being that stringent about practising.

By the way, ask any seasoned (or not) BN dancer, it is fun. I love it and I am not even a middling one.

You all aren't really grasping it. I'm not saying one is funner or not fun, one is hard or not hard. I'm saying, for various reasons, BN doesn't have that "fun" image associated with it.

HMF, reg #74: "BN doesn't have that "fun" image associated with it" --of course not - it is a classical dance form! (and so are Kathak, Kathakali, Kuchipudi and Odissi).

The person learning/dancing might begin to enjoy it at some point, but I don't think it can be "fun" in the flippant way you seem to mean it.

I'm saying, it doesnt have the 'fun' image relative to the other forms I mentioned, Kathak, and to a lesser extend Odissi. (and I dont know enough about the rest of them)

Ever see those dervish's ? they spin a bagillion times.

I don't see the relevance of desi vs. half-desi vis-a-vis culture, especially in the context of the illustrious family that Aniruddha comes from. Culture notwithstanding, I remember that two of his full-desi uncles were involved in drugs, murder and mayhem at Wesleyan :

Link for above :
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/w/wesleyan_university/index.html?query=RANGANATHAN,%20SUDHAMA&field=per&match=exact

I'm saying, it doesnt have the 'fun' image relative to the other forms I mentioned, Kathak, and to a lesser extend Odissi. (and I dont know enough about the rest of them)

That's what I said earlier and what you conveniently failed to read.

Do you realise this man (Floridian) is in his 50s? How about a little respect or at least courtesy? Or did they not teach you that in your 'gurukulam'?

Or did they not teach you that in your 'gurukulam'?

I meant to say, "Dang"

I second Amitabh (#81). A little less vitriol and a little more manners from Nayagan will be appreciated.

Amitabh @81

I agree with your criticism of Nayagan's tone. However, I dispute your sarcasm of his training. Nayagan's mom, at least, is the real deal. Even if Nayagan was a below-avg. student (which I doubt he is/was, given the knowledge and depth of the commentary), he is a subject matter expert.

Nayagan, I appreciate that you are commenting as "Evil and Correct Nayagan", but how about toning it down just a little?

ps. I always look forward to reading your commentary on all matters BhN. Just wish it was a little more congenial.

Floridian in # 55 said :

... and the martial arts, all extracurricular activities rooted in traditions of their own.

Certainly true of Tae Kwon Do where you typically advance in various colored "belts" over a period of time (minimum 5 years).

The 1st yellow belt exam takes place in 3 months and tests out basic forms like "I" form etc. Very often parents sit in and watch their kids do the form, which are ** highly choreographed ** moves. This provides the instant gratification and exhibitionist components that our culture craves.

The regional competitions, where dojos square off against each other with their star pupils, are similar to our arangetrums where the "my kid beat some other dojo's star kid" weighs heavily in the parent's bragging rights. Once again not every kid gets to play, because, like it or not, only 5-8 kids make the prized "demo" teams. These same kids usually get to ride the July 4th parade float too. Parents put up with it. Some hoping their time will come, and others cursing at the sensei loudly or in private.

So... Floridian, Nayagan both of you may be right. I know parents who work 2 jobs just to be able to afford Tae Kwon Do training for their kids, many of whom quit after 6 months, after blowing $1500 on uniforms, protective fight gear, team patches etc. Maybe we need to make BN more "americanized" incorporating components of both sustained effort and some degree of instant gratification.

Do you realise this man is in his 50s? How about a little respect or at least courtesy? Or did they not teach you that in your 'gurukulam'?

come on. if someone is in their 50s---and they act it---they deserve respect. if someone in their 50s stoops to the level of someone in their 20s, well they deserve to be treated like someone in their 20s. also being older doesn't automatically mean you are an expert at everything, nor does it mean you can pretend to be one.

i have nothing against floridian---don't know about him/her. i have something against the above line of attack on nayagan.

Certainly true of Tae Kwon Do where you typically advance in various colored "belts" over a period of time (minimum 5 years).

Very true. and necessary if the sport is going to be commercial. Funny thing is, in Korea, it actually takes about a year or so to earn your blackbelt, and you used to test at the Kukkikwon. There, they have a different concept of blackbelt as the *beginning* of your training, rather than the end.

where dojos square off against each other

For TKD, they're called "dojangs" dojo is a japanese word. If someone calls themselves a TKD dojo, it's one of those hybrid things run by some white military guy who's just throwing all kinds of sh*t together.

Among the two most authentic groups, WTF (world tae kwon do federation) and ITF (international tae kwon do federation) the WTF is more strict and rigorous with their entrants for sparring competitions. It's a bit different, if you go "on stage" before being ready, you end up with a black eye or a broken nose. That's certainly more motivation to wait rather than havinng some purist folks (like some of the contributors here) rant at you.

And, tkd tournaments are nothing like arangetrams. but maybe they should be, it would certainly make the arangetrams more interesting to watch.

81 · Amitabh said

Do you realise this man (Floridian) is in his 50s? How about a little respect or at least courtesy? Or did they not teach you that in your 'gurukulam'?

I give respect where it is due--in this case, where a commenter shows knowledge of the subject. If you know so little as to cast BN teachers as the primary roadblock
to acculturation during instruction and confuse 'performance' for 'arangetram,' then yes my estimation of your credibility will fall precipitously. (not including the assumption of Hindustani terms as applying to all classical music)

If you wish to also cast aspersions on my mother's school and on thousands of teachers of whom you have no knowledge of either, feel free to do so but do not expect civility in any response from yours truly.

I second Amitabh (#81). A little less vitriol and a little more manners from Nayagan will be appreciated.

Sastri,

this topic is very close to my heart---BN has been my life, the reason I could eat, the reason I had a roof over my head and is what kept my mother, grandmother and myself together and above water during the first trying years we lived in the US. Emotional responses are a given.

PS: Nayagan -- my favorite is the 'empathic and correct' Nayagan, if it makes a whit of a difference.

Port,

I have no problem with sensible solutions. Indeed, my mother has had to come up with many to satisfy the parents of those kids who, for a variety of reasons, weren't able to achieve a standard (at the time) necessary to get on stage and perform classical items. But to posit that it's traditionalists v. realists is to present a false dichotomy. There are good and bad teachers out there--both the home-basement hobbyists and 'full-timers' with 100-student classes and full-time manager husbands (and wives) and the bad ones consistently screw up their students by both supplying them with bad instruction and grossly inflated aspirations.

A 'good practice' would be to tell every parent what the requirements are to present a full evening of classical items--what most people refer to when they talk of aspirations for their child in BN--but how is incumbent on the teacher to explain to the parents that an activity they are throwing their child into is difficult by nature, highly stylized and possessed of an irreducible complexity? I've grappled with the problem before and there are no easy answers--also no "BN for Idiots" self-help book out there, but here are few warning signs which should cause any parent to stop and reconsider:

1. Class Size: for one teacher, the maximum amount of kids they can handle at one time is no more than 20. Any more and corrections go uncorrected from class to class and questions from students go unanswered.

2. Demonstrations: if the teacher is not capable/does not get up and demonstrate what the proper form/expression/movement is, walk away quickly. Teaching by description, for even the greatest teachers, is an ineffective method and highly dishonest.

3. Performance Schedule: the teacher should have at least one large annual presentation planned for the year. If they have no planned presentations, ask if they plan to include the child in a lecture/demonstration or master class that the teacher is conducting at a university/high-school. If there are no plans, walk away.

4. Be Reasonable: when teachers start out, they often do not have the facilities and logistical assistance to make some of these things work. Promising the moon, when you can't deliver, is wrong but assuming that this teacher can do so, without logically evaluating the situation, is an own-goal and easily avoided.

Nayagan, you have a fine appreciation for the financial compulsions of the teacher, but are rather dismissive of the reasons for which parents may want to enroll their kids into Bharatnatyam lessons.

Not sure what you mean by 'fine appreciation' but if you're thinking of years of cloth nappies, living in an aluminum tube (widely reputed to inspire mullets, incest, ignorance and lower-class mannerisms), being absolutely ashamed of everything you're familiar with and being acutely conscious that I was at the bottom of the SES ladder in whatever situation I entered, then you're absolutely right. I often find that very few people know just how hard it is, and are incredulous when faced with the evidence, to make a living teaching BN where my mother did.

I am dismissive with good reason because for all the bad pushy parents out there, there were quite a few good ones who were not dancers (geneticists, accountants, pathologists, lawyers, techies all) and got the plot anyway. What amazes me is that after 50+ years, Floridian could come away with a such a skewed impression of the state of BN instruction in the states. An impression I am apparently to entertain as if it is, on it's own merits, just as valid as any other.

88 · HMF said

And, tkd tournaments are nothing like arangetrams. but maybe they should be, it would certainly make the arangetrams more interesting to watch.

A BN post would not be complete without a reference to dance-fighting. Point for the reference and a half point docked for no youtube video (unless it's passe now).

Nayagan, your points are valid and your experiences are incredible...I'm just saying some politeness would help keep the discussion more friendly...you could make the exact same points in a less abrasive manner...do you want people to hesitate from interacting with you on this forum because of the lashing they think they might receive from you? It's great to be an expert, you bring a lot to the table on this one, and no doubt this is emotional for you but at the end of the day simple niceness goes a long way.

Point for the reference and a half point docked for no youtube video

There's already a mr. youtube on this block. That's a stage I'd dare not try and usurp.

91 · Amitabh said

do you want people to hesitate from interacting with you on this forum because of the lashing they think they might receive from you?

No. But as it is IRL, so it has become online. At the same time, i never received a gentle talking-to or a mild dressing-down as a child--it was through screaming and physical discipline that i learned to do anything right. i know it's not immediately obvious to everyone here but I saw Floridian's comments as a distillation of the views of all the parents who have given my mother ulcers over the years and yes i did see red at that point. I see red for incredibly long periods and I apologize if I've hurt anybody's feelings but as Amitabh explained, it's only me who misses out.

89 · Nayagan said

But to posit that it's traditionalists v. realists is to present a false dichotomy.

i was contrasting hobbyists with professionals/artists/committed practitioners (not realists v. traditionalists).
thanks for the thoughtful reply. and from the meaningless/perhaps pregnant with symbolism inverse symmetries department, the pushy parent set seems to be aggressively adopting cloth nappies these days. who woulda thunk?

Hey Nayagan @93..

Don't be so hard on yourself. Use this a learning opportunity. You are our teacher. How does a person teach? Coaxing, repetition, and with lots of patience. Teach us and everyone else all that you have learned. We will learn if you speak to us nicely. :-) *hugs*

where is Anna when we need her?

Nayagan, I'm with you. why does floridian want his kid to 'learn' bharatnatyam if he doesn't want his kid to learn bharatnatyam. Unlike ballet, indian classical dance is a form of devotion and deserves respect and dedication from students at every level. If you want your kids to learn about this particular aspect of our culture then you need to understand this. If you want your kids to dress up and shake it on stage there are plenty of bollywood dance classes around. Indian classical dance is not soccer or martial arts. If you are lucky enough to find ateacher in America who takes her art seriously enough to look for the potential in all her students you should be grateful. Sorry for the rant but drawing an equivalent between after school activities and our classical dance form shows acertain cluelessness. Floridian might as well skip those performances at IIC and Sri Fort if he doesn't respect the tradition behind them.

Sorry for the rant but drawing an equivalent between after school activities and our classical dance form shows acertain cluelessness.

So, in your view, unless someone puts all their free time into classical Indian dance, they shouldn't do it at all?

HMF said :

And, tkd tournaments are nothing like arangetrams. but maybe they should be, it would certainly make the arangetrams more interesting to watch.

Didn't mean to imply that they were. Just that they both show cased an "art" form.

Nayagan, buddy/baby, your passion is commendable, and hats off to your pride in Indian culture, but

"Ab bahut ho chuka. Chhod dey gussa, aur aish karo yaar. Zindagi bus do pal ki hai."

96 · payal said

Unlike ballet, indian classical dance is a form of devotion and deserves respect and dedication from students at every level.

is that just you, or are kids being taught to be condescending toward other dance forms in bharatnatyam class? please read how difficult and competitive it is to be a classical ballerina (special school, ballet in russian schools mid 20th c., weight, body type and ballet, injuries, limited career, working with difficult choreographers are some phrases you might want to google). perhaps then you'll grant that serious of study demands devotion and is worthy of respect.

(special school, ballet in russian schools mid 20th c., weight, body type and ballet, injuries, limited career, working with difficult choreographers are some phrases you might want to google)

Not to mention you have to wear funny looking outfits.

92 · HMF said

. That's a stage I'd dare not try and usurp.

HMF, restraint becomes you :) Discretion is the better part of valor, no?

HMF, restraint becomes you :) Discretion is the better part of valor, no?

I have no idea what this means.

Is Nayagan is the same person as MuraliMannered? As someone who finds every dance form bloody boring, I see the merits in the arguments of both Floridian and Nayagan.
If Nayagan is an example of a traditional BN teacher, then it is clear that the disdain of the paying consumer is widespread.

HMF:

For that matter, even ballet as it is supposed to be.

I love the underlying sentiment behind this statement... "even the white people dance is hard"

"White people dance" is now "ballet"? Poor old chicken dance. Just because George W. Bush danced it at his daughter's wedding, its popularity has suffered, and it has now been unceremoniously dumped.

59 · SemiDesiMasala said

But do other half-desis feel the same sense of loneliness and isolation?

Yes. I do.

If I may ask, are you saying that the loneliness and isolation is because of the direct consequence of trying to embrace both parts of one's parents cultures without privileging one over the other or is it because there is no one of the same kind of mix to relate to outside the family or is it because kids can be mean to someone who looks different?

96 · payal said

Sorry for the rant but drawing an equivalent between after school activities and our classical dance form shows acertain cluelessness.

Thinking that each kid is interested in (or capable of) becoming Shaswati Sen is misguided. I can't paint well, but I'm sure as hell glad that I was exposed to art and sculpture as a little girl. A child (and her parents) are certainly allowed to cultivate their interests in a particular art form (or any discipline for that matter) as they see fit. What they are not allowed to do is dictate terms to a teacher who is not willing to teach mere amateurs.
Speaking of cluelessness, without a generation of contemporaries who don't enjoy dancing (albeit as amateurs) who is going to patronize these serious artists you speak of? An artist with a following, with an engaged and appreciative artist is more likely to be fulfilled -- personally, professionally, and financially. If people like Floridian did not appreciate dance (which is demonstrated by his involvement in his child's dance school and his desire for his daughter to learn the dance at whatever level she can, considering her goals, personality, and skills), who will fund these dancers' performances at IIC/IHC/Siri Fort? Condemn the bourgeoisie interest in dance all you can, but these people's love of dance, their wistfulness, and appreciation of a dancer's skills and devotion to her craft, is what (partially) sustains the art form. I'm not merely making a claim from economics here, I'm just talking about interest and willingness to be an appreciative audience member. If there weren't amateurs or patrons who didn't derive pure delight from the precise and clean movements of a dancer -- where would art be? Many artists can remain solitary and find satisfaction from just dancing. But many can't. And most do need to eat.

99 · portmanteau said

is that just you, or are kids being taught to be condescending toward other dance forms in bharatnatyam class?

no, i'd venture that it's not even mentioned ;) Mom did a production with a midwestern ballet company a while back (large BN group from India working with large midwestern all ballet company), i visited before one of the performances and the ballet dancers were clearly in MUCH better shape. I mean you could see extreme muscle separation THROUGH the tights on both men and women (yes, some of the fellows were rocking the fishnet stocking-and-unitard getup--imagine Michael Chang scrambling from baseline to baseline at the French Open in fishnets.)

that being said, there are certain elements of BN (mudras, responsive musicians) that are not available to a classical ballet choreographer--meaning a different set of tools is brought to bear and there are vastly different expectations with a ballet critic as opposed to a bharatanatyam critic (try comparing the Village Voice's dance criticism columns to anything in Sruti Magazine)

nayagan, i'm in agreement with you that different dance forms provide entirely different trajectories of physical proficiency and competence. but they really need to address the mass prevalence of eating and body image disorders endemic to serious ballet schools.

I'm not merely making a claim from economics here, I'm just talking about interest and willingness to be an appreciative audience member. If there weren't amateurs or patrons who didn't derive pure delight from the precise and clean movements of a dancer -- where would art be?

PM this is a very insightful point. And it's completely true.

109 · HMF said

PM this is a very insightful point. And it's completely true.

do we really need a National Association for the Advancement of Art Patrons ;)?

Portmanteau said :

different dance forms provide entirely different trajectories of physical proficiency and competence

Very true. When I was in sales, at the end of a long and trying day, the local sales guy would propose an evening of "ballet".

I very quickly learned, that this meant a jaunt to the local "Gentlemen's Club" where we would be treated to improbable displays of litheness and contortion. Before you ladies decide to "pavitra-fy" me with "ganga jal", let me assure you that I merely went along as a member of the team, and hated every minute of it.

#106 Portmanteau:

If people like Floridian did not appreciate dance (which is demonstrated by his involvement in his child's dance school and his desire for his daughter to learn the dance at whatever level she can, considering her goals, personality, and skills), who will fund these dancers' performances at IIC/IHC/Siri Fort? Condemn the bourgeoisie interest in dance all you can, but these people's love of dance, their wistfulness, and appreciation of a dancer's skills and devotion to her craft, is what (partially) sustains the art form.

Now, why didn't I think of that? Portu, I am no "bourgeoisie" myself if you mean that it in a classical sense, but I do profess to be their ultimate defender.

And Nayagam, if you hadn't suffered the early childhood traumas of an aluminum-tube existence, yelling and physical discipline (beating?) (comment #93) - not that you have the right to use that as an excuse for "seeing red" and lashing out at someone who never attacked you personally - I would have had a few choice words for you, too. Please don't enumerate your poverty-ridden life to a first generation desi. We have pumped gas in 100-degree weather, cleaned crap, bummed rides to work and taken more verbal abuse and discrimination than you would ever know.

I discovered later, much to my horror, that you were not just a stray commenter with anger management issues but a Sepia Mutiny contributor. Doesn't that instill a little sense of proprietorship and decorum in you? And how did you figure that your mother was being attacked here? I was drawing from my GENERAL experience with BN teachers and BN parents, which I will match toe-to-toe with yours. What is your experience anyway - one fine teacher (your mom), and a bunch of parents you seem to hate. I am sure your mom is an exception, and let me tell you, if I was fortunate enough to be one of your mom's clients, she would have found me to be a source of inspiration instead of ulcers.

112 · Floridian said

I would have had a few choice words for you, too. Please don't enumerate your poverty-ridden life to a first generation desi. We have pumped gas in 100-degree weather, cleaned crap, bummed rides to work and taken more verbal abuse and discrimination than you would ever know.

Really. Look I know the previous generation has many trump-calling experiences--my mother fled Sinhalese-led pogroms in the summer of '83 so that I could live elsewhere so don't start the contest with me. Did you perhaps attempt to support children during your hard times? On a dance teacher's income? Right.

What is your experience anyway - one fine teacher (your mom), and a bunch of parents you seem to hate.

Some would have the grace to admit when their argument collapses or even if it simply at odds with another because they depend on different sources (your anecdotes vs. my experience)

You know, i decided to give you a second chance. I allowed my mother to read the falsehoods and unsupportable generalizations you make about BN teachers in general--she couldn't help point out the same things that caught my attention.

i know what i'm talking about and i see no point in continuing to justify my credibility to people who obviously don't know enough to distinguish a garden variety performance from an arangetram.

I'm sure that pales in comparison to your anecdotes.

I discovered later, much to my horror, that you were not just a stray commenter with anger management issues but a Sepia Mutiny contributor.

Yeah, I respect the rules--inasmuch they encourage the honest pursuit of truth. I strongly feel that your anecdotal experience is irrevocably influenced by your consumer advocacy and the subsequent misapplication of the same to what is, unapologetically, an performing art--this compounded with what I can only describe as discussing this issue in bad faith is something to which I will always object. Once BN starts to be an on-demand service to alleviate kultur kampf for time-starved parents is really the day it ceases to be art and becomes a box of animal crackers. I am not a dealer in animal crackers and I'd never subject my mother to that fate either.

Please don't enumerate your poverty-ridden life to a first generation desi.

Nayagan, is your mother going to tour the US with her gurus later this year? Am curious and couldn't help asking. :)

105 · iso said

59 · SemiDesiMasala said

But do other half-desis feel the same sense of loneliness and isolation?

Yes. I do.

If I may ask, are you saying that the loneliness and isolation is because of the direct consequence of trying to embrace both parts of one's parents cultures without privileging one over the other or is it because there is no one of the same kind of mix to relate to outside the family or is it because kids can be mean to someone who looks different?

Well, I think that trying to embrace both without marginalizing either is part of what creates the loneliness. It's not so much about "looking different" because I have found that when someone wants to see me as "looking different" they do and when they want to perceive me as just like them, they do. I have had people tell me that I look very "white" and I've had people tell me that I definitley look Indian. I think, for me, it loneliest in the community where I seem to be able to blend in. I look ethnically ambiguous and it is pretty easy for me to blend into the standard caucasian-american culture. But, it's lonely because alot of american's with european roots either exotify/fetishize indian culture, or view it with pity and disdain (that is when they aren't ignoring it entirely). So, I feel very protective of my desi roots in those situations. But, I have found that when desis (either ABD or DBD) find out that I am half-Indian, they are very welcoming and either interested in how I feel about being mixed or are want to know how much Indian culture I work to embrace on my own. But that experience is a bit lonely because I don't know what it feels like to have two Indian parents and to have a consistent culture at home as well as a different but consistent culture outside of the home. My home culture was mixed. The other thing is that in the states, american culture is kind of the default, so I make a concerted effort to include Indian culture in my life. It's not just about celebrating my roots(although I am very proud of them), it also makes me more comfortable to have the mixture. I guess that's the lonely part, because so many people have one or the other and there are fewer of us with the mixed culture as a distinct experience of its own.

#112, Floridian: "Please don't enumerate your poverty-ridden life to a first generation desi"

--this is slightly off topic, but what are you trying to say? Back when I was in school in Madras, I have had classmates join me in 1983-84 from Srilanka and have heard their horror stories - and these were relatively rich/comfortable families. One girl's father was working for the Srilankan Consulate in Madras and his eldest daughter had been abducted by the LTTE - for years, they did not know her whereabouts (and if she was alive or not). Can you imagine the anguish of the parents?
In 2003, when I visited Toronto, I came across several Srilankans (Tamils) and because I love their way of speaking (it is not influenced by Sanskrit or English), I chatted with several. I heard about instances when mom+children travelled out of Srilanka (their first flight), not exactly sure about where they were going and what they were going to to (to support the family). For a long time (months/years), they did not know when their father would join them (phone calls were very limited - they did not know when dad would call and if he was still alive). Somehow, many families prodded along and managed. It is all very traumatic. This is the story of several people I met. I can only imagine the pain and anguish they must have gone through.
Not to belittle whatever difficulties you have faced, but think about what these people have gone through.

There is no condescension in distinguishing between ballet which is based on court and folk dancing and indiian classical dance which is rootd in indiain spiritual tradition. I don't think any one who is being pushed to get up on a stage in a fancy outfit has any greater appreciation for indian dance than someone who didn't take 'baby bharatnatyam'. No, not everyone will grow up to be Saswati Sen but anyone who studies indian classical arts with true dedication will find real joy and balance in life. Indian parents who bundle their kids upon a stage are short changing their kids and depriving them of something very special.

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George has to go through his list of sufferings to get the apartment.

But I'm with the Florida man. At the end of it, if you're working, you're accountable to some degree to the customer. You might hate'em but those are the people you eventually depend on.

117 · payal said

Indian parents who bundle their kids upon a stage are short changing their kids and depriving them of something very special.

or giving them a special experience from their POV. maybe those families have different priorities and conceptualize their engagement with dance in an entirely different manner. true, they cannot partake of the spiritual side of dance as devotion and commitment, but i think they know that they are making that trade-off. so they recognize that they cannot ( for economic reasons, lack of skills or commitment or talent at that rarefied level) make dance their lifelong devotion but at least they can participate in the experience differently. from the sidelines. for what it's worth, i do think having learned (very little) dance made me realize how difficult it is and gave me a much better appreciation of the technical virtuosity and sustained practice that dance requires.

i do think having learned (very little) dance made me realize how difficult it is and gave me a much better appreciation of the technical virtuosity and sustained practice that dance requires.

And when you make a gabillion dollars, you'll put some of it towards dance.

By all means, appreciate the dance, I don't think any of us has a problem with that.

Perhaps another way to look at it is, for those of us who have put several years of our lives into dancing, when we see parents, and even children for that matter, treating it as just another extracurricular activity, even though we understand where they're coming from, it still hurts a bit. It almost feels like they're cheapening the art form. For some of us, we live and breathe dance. When we perform, it's almost a spiritual experience. There were times while I was performing my Arangetram that I did feel like I was losing myself in the sheer beauty of the dance (and isn't that what Hindu philosophy is about? about losing yourself in Brahman or some greater entity?).

I, personally, have nothing against parents who want to expose their children to Bharatanatyam on a more superficial level, to wait and see if the child becomes more interested. That makes perfect sense. It's the parents who expect the same level of instant gratification or regular performances who rub me the wrong way. Dancing for that long made me appreciate dance so much more. Of course, I did appreciate it after I'd been dancing for 2-3 years, but somehow, after your Arangetram it does feel entirely different. You feel like a dancer.

And yes, Arangetrams are definitely hard work. Ridiculously hard work. Mine was towards the end of the summer, and I remember I was practicing for 6-8 hours a day during the summer. The week before my arangetram, I injured my knee. I kept going. Halfway through the Arangetram, the knee injury, shall we say, re-asserted itself. I kept going. It doesn't sound like much, but let me tell you, staying in aramandi with an injured knee is beyond painful. Why did I do it? I love Bharatanatyam. I love doing it. Now, when I find myself complaining about finals and things like that, I can put them in perspective. With experiences like the Arangetram, you find out what you're truly capable of.

If parents want their children to feel more connected to Indian culture, I don't think that a superficial sort of dabbling in arts is going to do it. If you treat it the same way you treat karate or debate, you make it just another extracurricular activity. When they've been dancing for years, or singing for years, or painting for years, etc., it gives them an entirely different sort of connection. After my Arangetram, I definitely felt a much stronger connection with all the thousands (if not millions) of dancers who have performed before me. I rarely felt that before the performance.

Sure, you can appreciate Bharatanatyam if you haven't studied it in-depth, but after you've danced for a long time, you appreciate it on an entirely different level. When you see an excellent dancer perform, you know what went into that performance... the hours of practice, frantic costume and jewelry changes, dancing even though random bits of jewelry or bells fall off. You get a much deeper connection with other dancers, since you both understand.

There were times while I was performing my Arangetram that I did feel like I was losing myself in the sheer beauty of the dance

There were times when I was watching an arangetram that I was able to keep my eyes open and awake. And I don't say this to belittle the dedication towards it, just saying that it's a very refined artform that, if you did mess up maybe 2% of the audience would catch it, unless you slid across the entire stage or swung from the curtain.

122 · HMF said

There were times when I was watching an arangetram that I was able to keep my eyes open and awake. And I don't say this to belittle the dedication towards it, just saying that it's a very refined artform that, if you did mess up maybe 2% of the audience would catch it, unless you slid across the entire stage or swung from the curtain.

for an unseasoned audience in America, yes (and there are a few seasoned crowds every now and then), but for an audience in Chennai, no. It actually just takes an eye for detail to spot flaws in costuming and makeup (along with great seats)--everything else is a different story.

But I'm with the Florida man. At the end of it, if you're working, you're accountable to some degree to the customer. You might hate'em but those are the people you eventually depend on.

And, tkd tournaments are nothing like arangetrams.

looking at it from a customer/client perspective is inaccurate. people don't send their kids to university with the understanding that they are paying a certain amount and in return expect, e.g. a minimum grade.

Maybe not in India, but in America lots of people view university as customer/client. maybe not for a minimum grade, but many look at a lack of grade as a lapse in "service" rather than their own lack of effort/commitment. etc.. I was a TA for 2 years, so I've been on the 'provider' side, students pretty much demand you do the work for them. Now I don't agree this should be the case, which is why I said, 'to some degree'

but exams are, aren't they? e.g. going through every form you've learned

You mean belt tests, yes, in a sense. but in my tkd school, no one ever failed. if anyone felt you wanted to test before you were ready, an upper rank would basically say you can't test - but not the teacher. I guess that's one of the 48 rules of power, get someone else to do your dirty work and be the bad guy.

People don't send their kids to university with the understanding that they are paying a certain amount and in return expect, e.g. a minimum grade.

Actually, this has been posited as a reason for the phenomenon of grade, and consequently, GPA inflation over the years, even in the best undergrad schools.

but in my tkd school, no one ever failed. if anyone felt you wanted to test before you were ready, an upper rank would basically say you can't test

Maybe not in India, but in America lots of people view university as customer/client. maybe not for a minimum grade, but many look at a lack of grade as a lapse in "service" rather than their own lack of effort/commitment. etc.. I was a TA for 2 years, so I've been on the 'provider' side, students pretty much demand you do the work for them. Now I don't agree this should be the case, which is why I said, 'to some degree'

Not that I think Floridian's position falls in the same category as expecting universities to give students a good grade (I also think that some of the comments are unjustifiedly interpreting Floridian's position in an extreme take-a-bat-to-my-son's-coach's-head-because-he-called-him-out way, when I think he is asking for something much more reasonable.

As he and others explained earlier, there is a difference in the perception of the activity of Bharatanatyam by different people. Much like many push their children to after-school ballet or classical music or softball or soccer, many parents are looking for some acquisition of skill, as well as positive reinforcement and encouragement to children by participatory activities. There are ways to encourage this participation without leading to an absolute breakdown in standards, by using pieces of graded difficulty based on skill level etc. I personally think that class and dedication will always out, the fact that every kid gets to play his or her violin piece at the end of the year does not demean those who end up playing at Carnegie Hall, be they child prodigies or experienced musicians. And I think the same holds for Bharatanatyam. Of course, this does not mean that there shouldn't be teachers who focus on rigor, just that the mismatch of expectations is bound to lead to conflict unless there is clear communication.

But the battle between the purists and, for lack of a better word, mass-marketers, will probably rage on as it does in so many other areas of our life.

which is essentially the same thing with an arangetram - they won't put you in that situation unless you're ready. nobody has ever failed an arangetram, either - the pass/fail decision comes way before

Yeah, but the teacher doesn't tell you no in our case. but I think it's quite similar.

nobody ever expected a good grade unless they worked hard for it, themselves...

it's all interpretation. they believed they worked hard for it, therefore any deficiency in performance must be in the 'service' they've received.

it's all interpretation. they believed they worked hard for it, therefore any deficiency in performance must be in the 'service' they've received.

121 · BlackCat said

Perhaps another way to look at it is, for those of us who have put several years of our lives into dancing, when we see parents, and even children for that matter, treating it as just another extracurricular activity, even though we understand where they're coming from, it still hurts a bit. It almost feels like they're cheapening the art form.

why is to so bad (or disrespectful) do to do something at an amateur level? i have no clue about esoteric computer
science, but if i spend two months looking at a cryptography book as a hobbyist do i demean the computer scientist who spends day and night at his lab trying to do complex math so i can safely use my credit card over the internet? or i don't know music theory, but if i sit and listen to a thumri, maybe take a few lessons to better understand it, how have i demeaned the devoted classical vocalist? o swim lessons at the Y cheapen olympians whose life is oriented around perfecting their technique?

i took some stats classes so i could do econ better (only an instrumental reason to pursue a discipline), i don't think it as disrespectful to statisticians, many of whom love their discipline and put as much into as a dancers. do those kids who go kumon (sp.?) for math practice cheapen the sadhna of abstract mathematicians? can't i take 5 math classes rather than get a ph.d in advanced math to get a little taste of what that discipline looks on a high level? sure, i won't be getting church's thesis in a fundamental way, but at least i have an idea of what goes on in ivory towers.

do little jack's painting classes take away from pollock? (well, imagine poor modern artists who always get the standard, "my kid could do that." now, that is demeaning and ungracious.)

i know being harangued by pushy parents is annoying, but to see extra-curricular pursuit of an art-form as an affront is also being over-sensitive. if it harms the integrity of dance, then it is a problem, yes. but what i'm trying to say is that most people distinguish the caliber of kid bharatnatyam performers versus the bn that disciplined artists like you perform. take this hankering after bharatnatyam as evidence of the power, thrill, and beauty of your art form. imitation (albeit substandard) is the best form of flattery :) yes, those kids will not know dance in the same intuitive, physical, and intense way as you do, but then you aren't an astrophysicist either. the fact that we can't understand the poetry of physics equations (as per enraptured scientists) shouldn't be a reason to exclude us banishing us from advanced calc.

my kid could do that

why is to so bad (or disrespectful) do to do something at an amateur level?

and speaking of exposure to new art forms - i hope this enlightens everyone as to just how creative one can be when martial arts and dance join forces (in the 1970s) ;)

and speaking of exposure to new art forms - i hope this enlightens everyone as to just how creative one can be when martial arts and dance join forces (in the 1970s)

Ak, is that a capoeira link? I'm unable to view it.

Ak, is that a capoeira link? I'm unable to view it.

131 · portmanteau said

i know being harangued by pushy parents is annoying, but to see extra-curricular pursuit of an art-form as an affront is also being over-sensitive

It's an affront to the teacher when the parent takes an extra-curricular approach but still wants the rewards of deeper and more intensive practice--if all you want is to see your kid playing Bhima/Draupadi/Jesus/Narayana/whatever on stage, then that should be communicated to the teacher.

136 · Nayagan said

It's an affront to the teacher when the parent takes an extra-curricular approach but still wants the rewards of deeper and more intensive practice-

nayagan, i have admitted as such on my first comment on this topic, when i said that parents and teachers ought to make their goals clear to each other. no disagreement on this point. if a child is engaged in a limited fashion, her parents cannot expect a disciplined practitioners' competence or performance ability.

137 · portmanteau said

nayagan, i have admitted as such on my first comment on this topic

don't be all rude now. i can't be told that i didn't read something--even if I actually didn't; )

138 · Nayagan said

don't be all rude now. i can't be told that i didn't read something--even if I actually didn't; )

salting my wounds? "i am going to call you out on a position you don't hold. but here's the kicker -- the reason i'm not aware of your stance is because i don't think your posts are worth reading."

i would sob in a corner, nayagan. but there is so much else i live for, fortunately.

139 · portmanteau said

i would sob in a corner, nayagan. but there is so much else i live for, fortunately.

who's defensive now? this is ridiculous. I guess floridian operates under different standards.

1 · Asha's Dad said

from my conversations with her Telugu friends it seems like it's a rite of passage for South Indian girls.

Acually Bharathnatyam is not like that, but in the United States Indian girls (North and South) have taken up Bharathnatyam as a core extracirricular activity. It is a good way to connect one's modern self with ancient tradition that otherwise may have lost. Bharathnatyam not only allows a girl to express herself artistically, perform on stage, and get a good work out, but Bharatnatyam class is also where we go and bring out the Indian in us (more than at home). We learn ancient hindu hymns and mythology and some sanskrit words here and there. And in those teenage years, when a girl does her arangetram, it is almost like a rite of passage because arangetram is a big thing and we grow a lot mentally through this experience.

Bharathnatyam used to be something that only certain boys and girls (certain castes) in India could learn. And it was not an extracirricular activity that gave them a lifetime experience outside of school, it WAS THEIR LIFE. After mastering the art they dedicated their life to serving their guru, becoming one, or performing and temples and king's courts.

TODAY in India, i dont know anyone who learns bharatnatyam, only some people of upper-class or upper middle class (generally) send their girls to bharatnatyam. It is and expensive art also having a core extracirricular activity while having a different career plan doesnt happen with most people their.

114 · Manvantara said

Nayagan, is your mother going to tour the US with her gurus later this year? Am curious and couldn't help asking. :)

I think you know the answer to this one. I will be seeing her perform in London.

peace, i'm gone.

140 · Nayagan said

who's defensive now? this is ridiculous. I guess floridian operates under different standards.

i was being facetious, nayagan. but yeah, i assumed you read what i wrote when you typed #89 :)

My biggest problem isn't so much Bharatanatyam as an extracurricular activity, it's the parental expectation that their kid needs to be rushed up on stage as soon as possible, regardless of what the kid thinks and regardless of what the teacher thinks.

If parents want to enroll their kids in Bharatanatyam as an extracurricular activity that exposes them more to Indian culture or that connects them more to Indian culture, then shouldn't they make sure that the kid has that experience? We've all been discussing the parental side of the issue, but we haven't really looked at it from the kid's perspective. When you're dancing, even in class, you know whether you would feel comfortable enough to perform. I've been pushed on stage to perform when I don't feel comfortable doing it, and I absolutely hated it. I'm the type of person who wants to give the audience the best performance possible, and if I think the performance is going to be lackluster (for one reason or another... perhaps I don't know the steps perfectly, etc.), I'll make my feelings heard. On the other hand, when allowed to work at my own pace, and take the time to perfect steps and abhinaya, I got on stage and had a great deal of fun performing. Another effect of parents trying to push their kids into performing, to get their "money's worth," is that if the kid doesn't feel that he or she is ready, it's going to be a traumatizing experience, and may even put them off dance. If you want your kid to dance to feel more connected to Indian culture, then make sure that they're connecting. That should be the most important thing, not performing. When the kid feels connected, the performances will be so much better. From my experience, that sort of connection only comes with long-term practice, which was why I was emphasizing that. That may not be the case in everyone's experiences. Some children may connect straight away, which is great. Others, however, need time.

And speaking of long-term practice, it doesn't have to be something that takes up all of your time. I was in middle school and high school while I was dancing, and while it did get tough, with the commute to dance class and juggling homework and practice, it's no worse than juggling another demanding activity. If you truly want to learn, and if you truly connect to the stories and the beliefs and the culture behind it, then you'll find a way to do it. Parents shouldn't be pushing their kids to do it, the kids should want to do it.

So...is high quality bharatnatyam going to survive in the long-term or is it in trouble (like so many other Indian arts)?

Also, has it always been called bharatnatyam or is that coinage relatively recent?

Since we're talking all this arangetram stuff I thought it would be cool to see some actual bharatnatyam (not sure if this dancer is good or not).

My thoughts, looking at a few bharatnatyam clips on youtube... it's a product of its culture. So, if you don't belong to that culture I don't think you can capture it (as a high-level practitioner, not as an audience member). Because you'll just be going through the physical motions without understanding the emotions at a visceral level. And belonging to that culture doesn't mean merely being South Indian or Tamil or what have you...it means imbibing the whole ethos of the society that created the dance, and being an organic part of that society. So a Tamil girl born and raised in Houston is not necessarily in any better position to 'get it' than a Gujarati girl from Queens or even a French girl in Paris. And as the society that created the dance itself changes, the dance runs the risk of running out of suitable candidates...and perhaps becoming fossilised.

Just some musings...NO OFFENSE MEANT TO ANYONE.

So...is high quality bharatnatyam going to survive in the long-term or is it in trouble (like so many other Indian arts)?

145 · Amitabh said

And as the society that created the dance itself changes, the dance runs the risk of running out of suitable candidates...and perhaps becoming fossilised.

History would say no--innovation was the name of the game from Rukmini Devi and the revival of BN as popular art form, right on through the 70s. Innovations since have come apace as instruction became the job of not only desis but the many foreigners who traveled to desh in the 60s, 70s, 80s to learn BN and other classical dance forms. Subject matter, music and what it is appropriate to portray have all changed over the years--you can find a great deal of this innovation right here in the US as instructors stretch the means of expression available to them to portray the stories/mythologies/morals that resonate most strongly with their kids/kids' parents.

globalizing instruction has thrown the gates open...with the results mixed...there's really no danger of ossification.

103 · melbourne desi said

If Nayagan is an example of a traditional BN teacher, then it is clear that the disdain of the paying consumer is widespread.

The knowledgeable and communicative consumer is always respected. The incurious and silent consumer is not. Both consumers' money is technically of equal value but a good relationship is possible only with the former. See the difference? If a teacher knows that a relationship will potentially be long-term, and most definitely depend on frequent honest communication, why would they develop this relationship with an incurious consumer who doesn't communicate needs/wants?

there are individuals i know in my professional life who are complete wastes of space and don't make my company any money--only headaches--and when it reaches a breaking point we sever the relationship in no uncertain terms. When the relationship is good--both of us make money and we wine-and-dine each other. Teacher-Parent relationships in the BN world are often either very good or very bad. Inevitably the very bad relationships end before any individual's time is wasted.

there are individuals i know in my professional life who are complete wastes of space and don't make my company any money--only headaches--

You mean a dance company? My cousin morty runs an aspirin company, he's looking for some headache people.

I think sometimes the expectation when you're mixed is that you'll identify with only one culture. So, this article is good because it shows people that just because you're mixed you don't have to leave one of your cultures behind. Also, as a half-desi person, I do agree with Annirudha's comments about the feeling of not belonging anywhere because you carry two different traditions in you. As he notes, it's difficult, but it has its compensations.

May I join? :-)
What a lengthy desi discussion! :-) Forgot the original posting?

Let me tell you, I watched Ani's Chennai's performance in Chennai in winter. It was well-announced. I watched it for 15 minutes, with my 3 friends (dancers), we had a good laugh (they don't have a regular circus in Chennai, you know), and when we were leaving, about 15 people were left (Nandini Ramani and the entourage). I feel pity towards those who have a social obligation to watch junk performances. It is the social obligation, not genuine interest, that drives crowds for the lame arangetrams.

About Ani: don't tell me anybody used to dance so clumsily and with such horrible expressions in such a costume 200 years ago. Or 500 years ago? The remnants of tradition was lost with the death of Balasaraswathy, who was vigorously trying to defend the Sringara, and fought with Rukmini Devi who successfully replaced Sringara with Bhakti. In order to popularize it, that is. Now we have Bharatanatyam - a popular South Indian folk dance. Enjoy, and forget that 300 years ago all the temple devadasis used to perform the 108 karanas. Be a true desi. Eat pop-corn, don't read the Natya Shastra.

Enough of the intro. :-) Let me address some of your interesting writings.

Bitterlemons Exposing American audiences to shoddily danced Bharatanatyam is not doing anyone a favour in my opinion. I don't see ballet schools putting unskilled learners on stage in public productions - why is Bharatanatyam any different? It is a classical dance form, needing years of training and dedicated practice, not a half-hearted weekend class.

I wish more desi or Chennai parents thought so too! Unfortunately...

Nayagan Most teachers are not anywhere near as strict and do not, in general, care to teach proper form (let alone posture!) as their gurus would have been in the Desh.

You think it is much better in Chennai? Come and see.

I did find that teachers were driven in large part by pressure from parents to put little Priyanka/Sarika/Radhika on stage within six months, with 18 costume changes so all their friends can come and watch an abomination born of little patience, overbearing parental desires to live vicariously through their child, and general keepin-up-with-the-Patels malarkey that produces the same kind of pick-it-up-and-drop-it mentality that accompanies so many forays into other extracurricular activities.

What a masterful and colorful description!!!!!! :-)

And yes, Bharatanatyam is different because ballet/soccer/etc did not start out as forms of temple worship and the songs which accompany dancers doing classical items are redolent with references to devotion--is that really packagable into a 3-month, one class per week product?

Bharatanatyam started out as a form of temple worship? No. Read the Natya Shastra, educate yourself. At present, there is hardly anything left in Bharatanatyam of what was there 2000 years ago.

Bridging-the-gap
Looks like old school guru-sishya parampara and the chance to do the arangetram only when you ready is clashing with the needs of instant gratification that is the American milieu for the cultural arts.

Well said!

History would say no--innovation was the name of the game from Rukmini Devi and the revival of BN as popular art form, right on through the 70s. Innovations since have come apace as instruction became the job of not only desis but the many foreigners who traveled to desh in the 60s, 70s, 80s to learn BN and other classical dance forms. Subject matter, music and what it is appropriate to portray have all changed over the years

Well, "revival" of... what??? Rukmini Devi, for those stupid foreigners, I guess, developed a simplified form of Tamil folk dance and called it... Bharatanatyam. Wasn't it her Italian tailor who designed the contemporary ("traditional") costume? :-)

Malathi We laugh and are simultaneously outraged when we hear about an odd surgeon or two in India allowing his/her 15-year old gift-to-the-world to operate on some poor patient. We don't practice medicine when we are only half a doctor either. So why do we expect less when it comes to an ancient dance form that has seemingly become casually accessible to all on a whim?

Art - like spirituality - in Kali Yuga lost its primary importance. People do not ask the temple brahmins if they understand the useless mantras they mumble.

HMF whether or not someone is "prepared to perform" is generally evaluated by the ability of an "average" audience, for someone a dancer to be "off-key" it's not enough to miss a beat here or there, or be sub standard in their abhinaya, they need to trip and roll on the ground a few times and land in the front row for it to be really noticed. That's just the nature of dance given the complexity and nuanced level of understanding one needs to correctly evaluate it, otherwise the evaluation is going to flow down to the lowest common denominator: face, makeup, costumes, jewelry, amount of money paid to artists, size of new jersey auditorium rented, etc...

Yeahhhh... But even in Chennai the number of "professional rasikas", critics or professional dancers who attend Bharatanatyam performances is dwindling.

Some people in my family have practiced BN for 25+ years, in India, in the real traditional style. I've been to a few arangetrams and been bored completely out of my mind. but I know that it's a highly refined art form, even if I can't 'figure it out' so to speak.

No, no, no! :-) Did the dancer have a waisteline? :-)
Your mind is not fooled: it is boring. These "traditional styles" are hardly older than 150 years! Please don't make me laugh. Look in Silapadikaram - what kind of dances did they performed then? What is left of THAT tradition? Nothing. Zero.

From what I've seen BN seems to be one of the 'less fun' dance forms out there

It lost its attractiveness and entertaining nature because it lost most of its elements. Shringara was replaced by Bhakti. How many karanas can the dancers perform today?

It (tae kwon do) is a bit different, if you go "on stage" before being ready, you end up with a black eye or a broken nose. That's certainly more motivation to wait rather than havinng some purist folks (like some of the contributors here) rant at you.

In Natya Shastra, they describe that the rasikas (or rivals) used to throw cow dung and other things at (bad) dancers. Someone here wanted to seem very traditional. We need to revive the tradition. Yes?

And, tkd tournaments are nothing like arangetrams. but maybe they should be, it would certainly make the arangetrams more interesting to watch.

Dance competitions are like tournaments.

portmanteau There is no harm in kids learning dance as a hobby or exploring it as a creative interest before moving on to something that fits their personality and interests better. Dance teachers could cater to two audiences -- separate those students who are hobbyists and are willing only to make a limited commitment from those who are serious dancers who look at dance as a calling or a vocation. This reduces reduces hypocrisy in the parent-teacher interaction -- both agree that given the child's commitment and promise she might benefit more from a less intense and less selective environment. The teacher then is completely justified in being selective about the more 'serious'/elite students she chooses, and impose much more rigorous curricular requirements.

What a well-balanced suggestion! I wish more gurus adopt this approach!

Manvantara Seems to me that 9 out of 10 desi parents (no, I have not done research on this - just what I have seen in several dance schools) in the US seem to be fixated on the notion that their child (mostly daughter) has to go on stage in the earliest possible time. Everyone wants to claim that their daughter is the best out there, or shows signs of being a prodigy - it's just ridiculous.

It is rajasic (American) pride that pushes them to compete, compete, compete with the Patels! :-) Clowns!

payal Unlike ballet, indian classical dance is a form of devotion and deserves respect and dedication from students at every level. If you want your kids to learn about this particular aspect of our culture then you need to understand this. If you want your kids to dress up and shake it on stage there are plenty of bollywood dance classes around. Indian classical dance is not soccer or martial arts.

Most people think martial arts are just boxing. Many people think Bharatanatyam is just dancing. Bharatanatyam, it seems, will follow the destiny of Kung-Fu: while most people practise it half-heartedly, thinking "What if it helps me in a street fight one day?", few take it as a sadhana and explore its spiritual dimensions. "I studied Kung-Fu in my younger years, told me a 40-year-old Chinese businessman. My teacher's teacher lives on a mountain hill and can even levitate. I stopped my Kung-Fu studies and went abroad to study business". Within 5 months of saying this, this Chinese businessman was knifed to death by his Chinese "business partners" who refused to return $100000 worth of leather jackets. The Chinese businessman is dead. He did not know life can be short. If he knew it, would be have made the same choices?

Amitabh So...is high quality bharatnatyam going to survive in the long-term or is it in trouble (like so many other Indian arts)?

Quality was sacrificed for quantity. Bharatnatyam is in trouble, like spirituality in Kali Yuga.

Also, has it always been called bharatnatyam or is that coinage relatively recent?

What was called what?

a Tamil girl born and raised in Houston is not necessarily in any better position to 'get it' than a Gujarati girl from Queens or even a French girl in Paris.

No, here you show your materialistic viewpoint. From a spiritual point of view, for example, the influence of Ganesha is limited (approximately) to the physical boundaries of India. Now, the smaller, semi-gods, apsaras, also have limited areas of influence. However, you are right in one thing: we don't know how deeply a particular dancer will be influenced by a particular emanation.

And as the society that created the dance itself changes, the dance runs the risk of running out of suitable candidates...and perhaps becoming fossilised.

It is possible as a short-term (1000-2000 years) effect, but, there will always be new incarnations of those who will restore it. Don't worry: it is none of our business. Natya, unlike ballet, is not of human origin.

melbourne desi high quality - certainly. However it will become more niche. In Madras for a few years it was an art form with widespread participation

but these days it is a lot less. I think the diaspora will keep it alive

Diaspora has a great role.

I've created a great profile of a kathak student from Queens, NY. A student of 10 years, I've captured kathak place in her New York life.

Check it out here: http://blogs.journalism.cuny.edu/interactive2010/2009/12/07/kathak-in-the-city/

Aash