June 24, 2008
The Arranged Marriage World ... is FlatArts and Entertainment
For those of us who are so wishing that the public’s fascination with arranged marriages was over, well … it’s not. Back in 2005, there was a lot of buzz [including here] around financial writer Anita Jain’s New York magazine article “Is Arranged Marriage Really Any Worse Than Craigslist?” So much so that she got a book deal out of it.
Next month, her memoir Marrying Anita: A Quest for Love in the New India will be published in the UK, US, and India by Bloomsbury. 
The book is being pitched as a “witty, confessional memoir” that simultaneously records Jain’s romantic quest and the story of “a country modernizing at breakneck speed.” The big question it asks: Is the new urban Indian culture in which she’s searching for a husband really all that different from America? Has globalization changed the face of arranged marriage
I want to groan, but I’m trying to be openminded and wait till I’ve actually read the book. I can’t help it though. The red flags go up in my mind when I hear about another arranged marriage book. And, now, this one combines that with another buzz word “globalization.” Is this the chick lit version of Thomas Friedman’s “The World is Flat”?
[Below the fold, glimpses of an excerpt which appeared at the Guardian last weekend.]
At the Guardian is “The Marrying Kind,” an excerpt from the book. In the following section, Anita decides to move to India to find a husband.
In my three years in New York, I didn’t come close to even one romantic relationship. Dating felt like an absurd cat-and-mouse game, where people were more concerned about what they could get away with than with settling down. Despairing of another summer of Sunday brunches with the stodgy and unresponsive company of the New York Times, I knew I had to leave New York, but where could I go?
That was when I began to think of going to India. There are more men in India than women, around 930 women to every 1,000 men, according to recent census data, the discrepancy a disturbing result of infanticide and sex-segregated abortion. So I figured my options were simply more plentiful in India. In cities such as Delhi and Mumbai, the vast majority of marriages were still arranged, but I’d also heard that a culture of dating and sleeping around was gaining ground. Nonetheless, in India, a desire to be married wasn’t at loggerheads with the advances for which feminists had struggled.
People commonly go to India to find themselves or find God, but I went to find a husband. I would give myself a year, which I figured was ample time in such a marriage-oriented society. I wondered if I’d be able to find someone modern enough in his thinking to be comfortable with a wife making decisions for the household and having a full life outside the marriage - one that included going out with friends, drinking and smoking. A woman who has had sex in the past - and not just with long-term boyfriends.
So, how, the Guardian editors ask in the story’s head, “Would Delhi men cope with a Harvard-educated working woman? And what happened when her father placed an advert seeking a ‘broad-minded groom’?”
Anita’s dad, we discover, apparently has too-high expectations of sealing the deal during his six-week trip to India. His optimistism yields to a trickle of responses which are followed by disappointing in-person meetings. At an encounter with a corporate lawyer, the following ensues:
My father wants to see if there is more to the fellow. He believes only one question is required to take the measure of a man. Leaning in, he carefully chooses his words in Hindi: “If my daughter Anita is sick and cannot cook, who would cook dinner?”
Waving his hand as if shooing away a fly, Vinod answers, “I have a maid.”
Knowing how decisive the question is, Papa gives him another chance. “The maid is sick. Who cooks?”
“I have two maids,” he says, notching up his attitude of arrogant dismissiveness.
“Your other maid is sick, too. Who cooks?” my father says, relentlessly.
“I’d hire a third,” Vinod says, unblinkingly.
Neither is backing down. It is a face-off. “Forget the bloody maids! What do you do?” Papa bellows.
Gulp, at the end of all these examples, wouldn’t the average reader be left with the feeling that there are no broadminded men in India? Or is this just the excerpt that was chosen because it was deemed “juicy” enough to boost sales? (I know many progressive and broadminded desi men, my husband included, so am really hoping that this book is more than your stereotypical arranged marriage kahani. My copy of the book is on the way so stay tuned.)
For those in the NY area, the author will be reading with Sandeep Jauhar at the Asian American Writers Workshop on August 7. Details here.
Sandhya on June 24, 2008 01:41 PM in Arts and Entertainment · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
i guess trying some other American city was completely out of the question that she hopped straight over to India? wow......way to inspire hope for the rest of us single girls.
I'm really eager to read this... with the knowledge that it's only *one* individuals' experiences.
I have to say that I'm a little surprised that she went from looking for love in NYC to looking for it in India. What about Non-Indians? It took me a while but I see now that as an American born Indian who grew up in Kentucky, I have much more in common with my white brothers than most from India.
To be fair, I've not seen a whole lot of Indian husbands cooking, back in the deshi. In fact, very few, actually only 2!
But I have something to add regarding dating in India.
I spent almost 4 years there working and longed to have a serious relationship leading to marriage and could only get a few month's short term relationship from each guy I met at best.
Even the 2 who expressed interest in marrying me backed down under family pressure.
It's tough for a girl who does not fit into caste, class, cultural and ethnic expectations.
Heartbreaking really.
1) relationships are hard. arranged, non-arranged, in between, cross-cultural, same family (i.e., cousins), etc.
2) their hardness is different in quality (different races, class, religion, nationality, age, all are different).
3) with the banalities out of the way, I know many progressive and broadminded desi men. what does "broadminded" mean? i think to a large extent what we're addressing here are differences of values between those who were raised in the united states and those who were raised in india. for example, i can totally empathize with indian americans who go to work in bangalore and are shocked and annoyed by the fact that people throw trash out the window. years of indoctrination and expectation re: recycling and littering are hard to break.
4) our ancestors were generally peasants, but they had no problem finding mates within the village. what went down? well, let's not always just look to supply. there are some issues on the demand side....
In my personal experience the major cities in India are not that different than any big cities in the US in terms of dating. There is plenty of good people with the not so good and I find it hard to generalize, I will be hard pressed to find anyone of the people I know in India who has had an arranged marriage in the past ten years. The problem is to assume that arranged marriages are static, the present day arranged marriages are nowhere near the arranged marriages of our parents’ generation, most of them these days have some level of flexibility.
In terms of conditioning, one thing that always fails me is the chaos at Indian grocery stores (specifically Patel bros at Newark Avenue in Jersey City). All the conduct that may be followed in American grocery stores is out of the window in the Indian grocery stores I speak of. Has anyone else has had similar experience in their local Indian stores?
My cousin married a man who grew up in Delhi. She never learned to cook and so didn't he. They cook dinners together from recipes they find on the internet.
You really can't generalize about DBD guys.
Its not uncommon for ABD guys to mantain the village mentality of their parents, while DBDs (especially from Delhi and Mumbai) to have more modern views on gender roles.
I think I beat Rahul in "spot the PG contest" today.
:-) go for an indian muchly, eh?
The Wall Street Journal speaks about this very topic:
On a tour of one of his supermarkets, Kishore Biyani notes that shopping carts are getting stuck in the narrow aisles, wheat and lentils have spilled onto the floor, black spots cover the onions and it’s difficult to hear above the constant in-store announcements. He grins and congratulates the store manager.
Mr. Biyani, 45 years old, has built a large business and a family fortune on the simple premise that, in India, chaos sells.
Kishore Biyani’s businesses have built their success by mimicking the chaos and grime of traditional Indian markets.
Americans and Europeans might like to shop in pristine and quiet stores where products are carefully arranged. But when Mr. Biyani tried that in Western-style supermarkets he opened in India six years ago, too many customers walked down the wide aisles, past neatly stocked shelves and out the door without buying.
Mr. Biyani says he soon figured out what he was doing wrong. Shopping in such a sterile environment didn’t appeal to the lower middle-class shoppers he was targeting. They were more comfortable in the tiny, cramped stores — often filled with haggling customers — that typify Indian shopping. Most Indians buy their fresh produce from vendors who keep vegetables under burlap sacks.
So Mr. Biyani redesigned his stores to make them messier, noisier and more cramped. “The shouting, the untidiness, the chaos is part of the design,” he says, as he surveys his Mumbai store where he just spent around $50,000 to replace long, wide aisles with narrow, crooked ones: “Making it chaotic is not easy.”
Even the dirty, black-spotted onions serve a function. For the average Indian, dusty and dirty produce means fresh from the farm, he says. Indian shoppers also love to bargain. Mr. Biyani doesn’t allow haggling, but having damaged as well as good quality produce in the same box gives customers a chance to choose and think they are getting a better deal. “They should get a sense of victory,” he says.
The approach has made Mr. Biyani rich. His company, Pantaloon Retail (India) Ltd., is now India’s largest retailer; it expects to report sales of more than $875 million for the fiscal year ended in June. He and his family own a 42% stake in Pantaloon, valued at about $630 million.
Mr. Biyani is proving that modern retailing, with a bit of spice, can work in a country where traditional markets dominate. On the back of his success — and rushing to close his head start — are some of the world’s largest retailers. While few may subscribe to Mr. Biyani’s chaos theory of retail, all will be struggling to find ways to attract the millions of Indian consumers who are shopping at branded chain stores for the first time.”
what guys REALLY want - a sohnee jananee who makes rajmah and butter chicken.
as #11,
Thank you for the article, I am actually talking about Indian grocery stores in America, although the need for chaos may explain some of what I have seen as well :)
Not just that...i assume you have on the PATH train to NYC and seen the chaos there. Us desis jus lose all sense of direction when we are in a jhund.
I went to India after 9 yrs in May and right at the airport I was made aware of where I am headed. Airline seating is called by rows, from back to front. Yet we forget all that, ignore simple instructions and group around the door as if it is leading straight to swarg. We fail to understand that its not first come first serve.
You really can't generalize about DBD guys.
Its not uncommon for ABD guys to mantain the village mentality of their parents, while DBDs (especially from Delhi and Mumbai) to have more modern views on gender roles.
that's not true, you obviously can generalize. you just did!
I wouldn't. That's EXACTLY what (desi) guys want!
jeet,
You are absolutely right, this was the other thing I had in mind, it is comic to see the crowd around the gates for flights to India and also everyone standing up as soon as the flight lands. BTW "Jhund" is my word of the day :)
what is this whole nonsense about 1 maid, 2 maids, 3 maids....?
You get amazing takeout in cities all over the world -- don't you?
Well I just read the 2005 article and it wasn't cringe-inducing as I expected it to be. I guess my expectations are low after that horrible Marie-Claire article. She makes some interesting points and you can't disclaim the experiences/interactions shes had with the men.
I can't say that I haven't thought about the whole arranged marriage route, since I am over 30(GULP!) with no prospects in site. But then the thought of meeting someone only a few times and then getting engaged and eventually married to them totally freaks me out. I mean you truly don't know someone until you live with them...
I am definitely interested in reading her book to see what her experience was like.
I mean you truly don't know someone until you live with them...
IMPURRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But then the thought of meeting someone only a few times and then getting engaged and eventually married to them totally freaks me out. I mean you truly don't know someone until you live with them...
It sucks and even worse for my wife since she stuck with me.
16 · razib said
Razib,
I said its not uncommon. I believe my statement implied that there are a lot of variations among ABDs and DBDs.
I hope she got married. There just happens to be a lot of unmarried desi girls in early to mid 30s. I am not kidding, a lot.
I believe my statement implied that there are a lot of variations among ABDs and DBDs.
right, but that is a generalization :-) i guess that's a jackass move semantically, but substantively i think it's kind of correct insofar as rejecting a strong generalization with an assertion of a uniformish distribution is a positive claim and not one of agnosticism.
Dear lord, this shit again? I thought we'd seen the last of this tired, rehashed nonsense after her and Sarita James' half-dozen articles on the matter, but now it's in the long form. Is this all these woe-is-me, 'Harvard-educated' women know how to write about? One is tempted to believe they purposely remain unmarried to be able to continue writing about a seemingly perpetual state of Sex-and-the-City-dom. Is it all possible for the arranged vs. love marriage topic to be unaggrandised?
It sounds like you are wise in being wary.
Since this cliched topic of arranged marriage raises it head again, let me trying to rehash a concept from a recent Obama related article : Nudge against Fudge -
This so called modern, progressive desi arranged marriage has become a "libertarian paternalistic" decision making process. As stated in the article libertarian policy is that people should be generally free to do what they please. Paternalistic policy tries to influence choices in a way that will make choosers better off, as judged by themselves.
My suspicion is that most of the desi chick lit authors are forced by the whim of publishers to deal with Indian topics, most probably don't interact with Indians socially
I like the groom's spirit. He knows the answer uncleji is looking for, he just won't give it to him. And why does a Harvardi feminista need daddyji as go-between?
i just read her article and found it absolutely nauseating. what sort of woman allows her dad to put her profile all over the web? and then she complains when she has to meet boring duds?! and i find it so silly that you reject all the men in one country and decide that the solution lies in another one. hon, here's where i'd recommend a little bit of introspection. perhaps the problems lies with you and your approach to men, relationships or life?
i've actually found this to be a huge issue with a lot of my desi friends (men & women). they tend to be totally obsessed with marriage, shallow, and want far too much compared to what they have to offer. and they LOVE to fall for people who're completely wrong for them or out of their league. (disclaimer: this is completely anecdotal, obviously, which is why i am generalizing and does not apply to ALL desis).
i really wish they'd stop churning out these endless books about people going to india to find love, a groom, a bride, god or themselves. i want to smack people who buy this bs over the head because the answers aren't ever that simple and they certainly don't lie a convenient flight away!
Seriously I have never seen an Indian man in India cook, I remember the look on my uncles face when my father went to the kitchen to get my mother a cup of coffee. Every time I ask for a recepie of something I ate, it's met with giggles. Forget men, there are very few broadminded people at all in India, espcially among women. We are from an urban upper middle class family in Kolkata.
Wow! She must have lost quite a bit of weight while writing that article after pulling out so many similar statments out of her ass .
Speaking of arranged marriages, NPR had a story on the same subject this morning.
Its not uncommon for ABD guys to mantain the village mentality of their parents, while DBDs (especially from Delhi and Mumbai) to have more modern views on gender roles.
Yes, but the mentality in villages might still be the same. Out of a billion plus people, how many people belong to the middle/upper middle class living in Delhi and Mumbai?
Sarah sez
As per Tuccilo [writer of SATC, "... just not into you" fame] it's a generational issue.
On a more positive note... if it works out, the rewards can be quite scrumptious. :-)
I haven't finished the book yet, but I've got to admit, after the initial opening part, which is basically what was in the New York magazine article, Jain is actually quite open about her own dating history (and, bringing men home for the night) and her experiences in NYC, but shortly after that, quite a bit of humor kicked in, which was a pleasant surprise (I think I had expected a more earnest and less funny book). She does seem to have no problem laughing at herself. Also, her portrayal of her parents' relationship is quite sweet.
36 · khoofia said
i don't think the problem is actually us feeling entitled to romantic love, because that's pretty natural (as is a yearning for more materialistic or supposedly shallow things like fame, fortune or beauty). in my opinion, the problem lies in expecting the love to last forever or to materialize into a walk down the aisle. we'd all be much happier if we conceded that love can be maddening, incredible, euphoric and yes, often, fleeting. it does not always last or translate into marital bliss.
34 · Abhi said
Another similar topic in the Huffington Post titled "Arranged Marriage: What It Can Teach Us"! This sure is getting a lot of press these days!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/23/arranged-marriage-what-it_n_108731.html
"Jain is actually quite open about her own dating history (and, bringing men home for the night)".
Before being smacked with the 'double-standard' label, I wonder how many ABD men (let alone DBD men) are truly comfortable with this for their potential wife. Just curious.
"Jain is actually quite open about her own dating history (and, bringing men home for the night)".
Before being smacked with the 'double-standard' label, I wonder how many ABD men (let alone DBD men) are truly comfortable with this for their potential wife. Just curious.
"i've actually found this to be a huge issue with a lot of my desi friends (men & women). they tend to be totally obsessed with marriage, shallow, and want far too much compared to what they have to offer."
Real talk
This month's Psychology Today, which I picked up in a doctor's office waiting room, has an article about an arranged marriage between a white American and an Indian woman: "A Divine Match, Made in Hell," by Jason Moyer. It's adapted from his book Two Cups of Chai -- and yowza, does the book cover hurt my eyes. Talk about your exotic wife-buying fantasies.
Lizzie,
That cover is something :)
OMG! That cover is redonkulous!
But the title reminds me of my mama and mami's breakfast procedure they have developed after over 40 years of marriage. My mami makes 3 cups of chai and when it's almost ready my mama gets the kakra and places some on a single plate. They both eat the kakra from the same plate and each get 1.5 cups of chai. Cho Chweet!
I think it's witnessing little things like that in some arranged marriage couples is what makes many of us have a romanticized notion of what it can be like. Even though we know of many people who really aren't compatible that stay together because of the pressure and got together in first place because of arranged marriage we are like the neighborhood pot-head - we easily forget.
40 · Kev said
Before being smacked with the 'double-standard' label, I wonder how many ABD men (let alone DBD men) are truly comfortable with this for their potential wife. Just curious.
It is best to avoid women from new York. One third of the women in New York have herpes.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Please, allow me.
"Are arranged marriages awesome? Do they suck? Are they normal? They are for these brown people over here! No, they're not. These people want to escape them! No, the marriages last forever. Actually, they're exotic and alluring. They're way better than dating because you commit and learn to love the other person! They're more horrible than dating because of all the smacking each other around by crazy control freaks. They're about the same as dating, really--you just meet people and decide if you like them or not. They're discriminatory. They're the last resort of the desperate. They're the first resort of the pragmatic. They're old and stale. They're new and hip! They frequently include the use of henna both in the wedding ceremony and on the cover of the resulting books. ABD women have nothing in common with DBD men. DBD men want nothing to do with ABD women. ABD men only want non-DBD women. DBD women only want green cards. ABD men only want sex."
*hurl*
Will you people please stop being so lactate intolerant.
Regarding Sanjay (#32)'s comment,
I am a DBD Indian male. Growing up, my dad used to cook whenever the need arose, like when my mom was sick or occasionally on Sundays or on festival days when they made some Indian sweets. My mom's health is pretty frail. So he also used to cook a lunchpack for my nephew in the mornings, before he goes to school, for more than a year. My parents live in India and it's not unusual in my family or among my relatives to see men cook. And our's is a reasonably traditional middle class family.
Well its a big jump from 10 lacs to 43..innit? And generally expenses includes reception and all. I know some upper middle class people give car and stuff and put it on display on reception day, but apratment? I dont think its very common. And if it is then I need to know, lest I get shortchanged with a hamara bajaj :D.
Modern desi arranged marriages don't seem to be all that different than dating services and online "matchmaking" sites. Whenever my parents would tell me about how they met it just made so much sense...narrow the field by making sure that your basic interests match up with those of your potential spouse. Granted, it wasn't exactly a compatibility test (as advertised on match.com), but family background, economic standing, and level of education are USUALLY extremely important for a relationship to work.
For some reason, however, I feel that the words "arranged" and "marriage" often invoke the archaic "betrothed since childhood" imagery to many non-desis. (Correct me if I'm wrong, "betrothed since childhood" IS archaic...right???)
Yah, the US cover isn't very impressive. The UK cover is better:
http://images.bertrams.com/Multimedia/ImageGallery?imageSource=BERT&ean13=9780747583677
Better view here:
http://www.zavvi.co.uk/imagepopup.jsf?code=9780747583677&front=true&pop=true
The real question is why should a Delhi man COPE with a Harvard educated women at all??...if he's making coin he'll have plenty of pliable options at home? Pliable being the operative word. If he wants he'll get. I'm sure the Harvard educated women would have done the same on her way to the top :)
32 · Sanjay Said:
Seriously I have never seen an Indian man in India cook, I remember the look on my uncles face when my father went to the kitchen to get my mother a cup of coffee. Every time I ask for a recepie of something I ate, it's met with giggles. Forget men, there are very few broadminded people at all in India, espcially among women. We are from an urban upper middle class family in Kolkata.
That is pretty much true in India. In the South men in many families are forced to learn cooking because the woman of the house gets 1 to 5 days off each month from entering the kitchen. This is limited to certain communities. This could be a topic for a blog post all on its own.
It is different, in a sense that both parties are meeting with a common intent ie marriage. There is no, "lets play it by the ear". You have a dead line or else.
47 · lazydezi said
Before being smacked with the 'double-standard' label, I wonder how many ABD men (let alone DBD men) are truly comfortable with this for their potential wife. Just curious.
It is best to avoid women from new York. One third of the women in New York have herpes.
Actually 36% of New York women have herpes. That's a staggering number! I am sure India has changed quite a bit from yester-years, but I doubt that a promiscuous woman is considered a catch there, even a Harvard educated one. Those who are responding there probably have their own agenda.
WTF? Those are some big leaps you're making there, Sam. There's an element of "women who have sex with multiple partners are really just disease-ridden whores," which is ridiculous.
If that wasn't your point, well, my apologies. But if it was, you're way off base.
First, the last study I saw said something like 26% of adult New Yorkers (overall, regardless of gender) carry the herpes simplex virus. That's compared to 19% nationwide. Many of those cases are birth-acquired. And the rate of treatment for herpes in NYC is pretty high, too. So yeah, your 36% number is accurate, but you're definitely misrepresenting things a bit here, because I've yet to see a single study on Indian women and Indian men in New York, and their respective incidences of venereal diseases compared to the population at large. So reign in there, pal.
PG or not, you have my sympathy. I agree it is a tough marriage-world out there, but I truly believe that the marginalized have a deeper insight into things that the privileged have taken for granted. So draw your strength from there and trust that when the right guy comes along you will have developed the instinct to recognize him and will be willing to overlook minor details that others, perhaps, have classified as major 'no-no'.
Lizzie, here's the linky-link to that article.
Kind of an odd article. Though I suppose all's well that ends well, hmm?
60 · Salil Maniktahla said
It is best to avoid women from new York. One third of the women in New York have herpes.
Actually 36% of New York women have herpes. That's a staggering number! I am sure India has changed quite a bit from yester-years, but I doubt that a promiscuous woman is considered a catch there, even a Harvard educated one. Those who are responding there probably have their own agenda.
WTF? Those are some big leaps you're making there, Sam. There's an element of "women who have sex with multiple partners are really just disease-ridden whores," which is ridiculous.
If that wasn't your point, well, my apologies. But if it was, you're way off base.
First, the last study I saw said something like 26% of adult New Yorkers (overall, regardless of gender) carry the herpes simplex virus. That's compared to 19% nationwide. Many of those cases are birth-acquired. And the rate of treatment for herpes in NYC is pretty high, too. So yeah, your 36% number is accurate, but you're definitely misrepresenting things a bit here, because I've yet to see a single study on Indian women and Indian men in New York, and their respective incidences of venereal diseases compared to the population at large. So reign in there, pal.
Indeed, it's very easy to get herpes even non-sexually so that comment was a gross misrepresentation of facts. There are many different strains of the virus.
Ouch, quotes got messed up...only the last two lines are mine!
Very true. There are going to be a helluva lot more desi spinsters unless they start doing what Anita did: take the initiative.
I think the subject of arranged marriage is coming up more and more as Westerners embrace Eastern thought. LATimes wrote a story on the subject and HBO is even planning a TV show on the concept:
http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/hbo-now-casting-volunteers-for-upcoming-reality-tv-show-arranged-marriage
website for the TV show: http://www.arrangedmarriagetv.com
Some Anita Jain quotes:
“With other forms of dating the options seem limitless. The long kiss in the bar with someone I’ve never met before could have been just that, an exchange that has a value and meaning of its own that can’t be quantified. Ditto for the one-night stand. (Try explaining that one to my parents.)”
“But after a decade of Juan Carloses and short-lived affairs with married men and Craigslist flirtations and emotionally bankrupt boyfriends and, oddly, the most painful of all, the guys who just never call, it no longer seems like the most outlandish possibility.”
Forget the one-night stands, I find her “short-lived affairs with married men” absolutely morally repugnant. While I really do get the dilemma of the bright, modern, single, Indian woman (my sister is one), I have very little sympathy for the likes of Anita Jain who have indulged in their hedonistic behavior to the max and now want some sap to settle down with.
Salil -- yes, odd. The magazine had an accompanying photo of them at their marriage -- also a little odd. They both look very smile-y in it.
I mean, yes, I'm glad it all worked out for them, but I wasn't sure of his . . . point? Maybe it's part of his larger memoir narrative -- but, then, I'm not reading his book.
37 · Filmiholic said
Like Filmiholic, I also got my hands on an early copy of Anita's book. I'd like to echo the same comments: I was pleasantly surprised by Anita's sense of humor--I found myself laughing out loud on several occasions! Her parents are also a significant part of the book, especially her dad, who's a real character. Trust me, I wasn't looking forward to another tired arranged marriage book either, and this is not it...its very much a memoir, one that describes India in a way that was very eye opening. There's not much globalization spin either, I don't know what's up with that. I wish Anita the best...this may be the type of book you won't be able to resist once it comes out.
Salil(#48), that was awesome!
the new yorker article was interesting to read, but like all immigrant stories, based on ONE PERSON'S EXPERIENCE. she describes her immediate surrounding in the article. As such many things are inapplicable to some, fictitious to others and to still others, simply laughable. Well funny. I am a south asian. I can see that the author has lived all her life with a lot of parental control/interference. Since her parents still do the stuff they do when she's over 30, and she still chooses to deal with it not by asking them to change, but by sharing it with strangers says something about her worldview.
I am not being harsh and I hope I don't come across all arrogant. But this by no means a good representation of what she's writing about. It tells you as much about indians and their ways in this matter as sex and the city tells you about lives of 4 young women living in new york. go figure!
Was I the only one that found this statements a tad sexist and politically incorrect?
By the way, Anita Jain is a sexually active woman, NOT a lonely spinster idling away her time with a French Tickler, unless the definition of "spinster" has changed.
And if there are alot of single desi women in their 30s, that means there must be alot of desi male "spinsters" as well!
Broadminded is a relative term.
What's broadminded in rural India may be considered "archaic" in Indian metros. What passes for broadminded in Indian metros may be considered closed-minded in rural America.
But I can say this, I doubt she will find a desi man and accompanying family who would be "broadminded" enough to accept her as bahu after reading a book about her sexual exploits.
I mean, desi families like to brag about their bahus. If a bahu happens to be an author, well, they give signed copies of the book to all their family members and friends. In this case they wouldn't be able to do so.
Plus, it would be dangerous for her - what with all the uncle-in-laws and everything thinking she's "broadminded", you know what I mean?
Anita babes, stick to American men. Your in-laws won't have as much of a problem with your book.
72 · Single and Lovin It! said
Was I the only one that found this statements a tad sexist and politically incorrect?
By the way, Anita Jain is a sexually active woman, NOT a lonely spinster idling away her time with a French Tickler, unless the definition of "spinster" has changed.
And if there are alot of single desi women in their 30s, that means there must be alot of desi male "spinsters" as well!
There are no left-over men looking for a ABD Girl in her 30s. Most of these men went to India and married a pretty girl who cooks like his mom.
I don't understand why a dynamic woman like Anita Jain would bother with such type of men, or bother going to India to find more.
There are plenty of hot and wonderful white and black men right here in her own country who would just adore her, and> cook for her!
75 · Single and Lovin It said
There are plenty of hot and wonderful white and black men right here in her own country who would just adore her, and> cook for her!
And you have not found one?
As American as Anita Jain pretend to be, she loved it when she found a 'bania'. So much for 'sex and the city' lifestyle.
I've found many.
Wait! She married a bania? I'll have to read the book.
I wonder if he wears banian.
77 · Single and Lovin It said
Yet none good enough to settle down with? Oh wait, you must be one of those for whom no one is good enough.
67 · Sam said
Haha well aren't you just the upright citizen huh? It's always so charming to see prissy uptight boys and girls wielding moral judgement over other people's lives. If Ms. Jain were having affairs with her friends' husbands, that would be a different matter, since that is a breach of trust in the friendship. But if it's an anonymous person, who cares? Whatever happened to the man's responsibility, huh? It's also funny how these frustrated desi men come in here and judge Ms. Jain for her one-night-stands. I fail to see how one can draw conclusions about someone's character from their sex life.
79 · Meena said
Haha well aren't you just the upright citizen huh? It's always so charming to see prissy uptight boys and girls wielding moral judgement over other people's lives. If Ms. Jain were having affairs with her friends' husbands, that would be a different matter, since that is a breach of trust in the friendship. But if it's an anonymous person, who cares? Whatever happened to the man's responsibility, huh? It's also funny how these frustrated desi men come in here and judge Ms. Jain for her one-night-stands. I fail to see how one can draw conclusions about someone's character from their sex life.
Because affairs with married people shows a lack of character and trust for any marriage, which btw is the topic of discussion. Jain had short-lived affairs with married men, not anonymous sex with them. Also I am not sure anonymous sex with anyone shows any character, sweetie! But of course you wouldn't know anything about that!
80 · Sam said
Haha well aren't you just the upright citizen huh? It's always so charming to see prissy uptight boys and girls wielding moral judgement over other people's lives. If Ms. Jain were having affairs with her friends' husbands, that would be a different matter, since that is a breach of trust in the friendship. But if it's an anonymous person, who cares? Whatever happened to the man's responsibility, huh? It's also funny how these frustrated desi men come in here and judge Ms. Jain for her one-night-stands. I fail to see how one can draw conclusions about someone's character from their sex life.
Because affairs with married people shows a lack of character and trust for any marriage, which btw is the topic of discussion. Jain had short-lived affairs with married men, not anonymous sex with them. Also I am not sure anonymous sex with anyone shows any character, sweetie! But of course you wouldn't know anything about that!
You are wasting your time talking about values to degenerate europeans.
I think her past history should give any prospect cause for concern. Not because she has a history, but because it does not include Indian men. I am not saying it is wrong/right for Indian women to exclude Indian men, but why would a desi dude marry someone who is not (and cannot be) attracted to them? Clearly she was OK with having flings with dudes she had no intention of marrying, but desi dudes are not worth it unless she is getting the social benefits of marriage? Disaster in the making....
I've not read the book. Does she state that she only dated/slept with non-Indian men?
In that case she would be like the desi men qoutes in #74 above;
Is it common for desi guys to sleep around with non-desi women and then go to Desh when they are ready to settle down with nice Indian girls who know how to cook like mom and who do not have a (known) dating history?
If so, is it because they feel they would have a better chance at a lifelong, divorce-free, affair-free marriage relationship with DBD women?
Perhaps Jain then feels the same but in the reverse???
I've met several who are good enough. I'm not ready to settle down yet. Still need to sow a few wild oats. Plus, I'm still in my early thirties, a bit too young to bow out of the game.
PG, please find yourself a sacrificial lamb so you will have something or someone to do other than engaging in the weird fabulistic exhibitionism you seem to revel in.
I see the PC police is at work. Ah, well.....
Col. Jessep: You can’t handle the truth!
- A Few Good Men
Ayup. It's not so much about PC as it is about civility. Keep the language decent, you can make your point in other ways.
Excuse me! These are desis, not europeans, being talked to and about.
In any case, that statement is very un-pc. Values are values across the board, Indo, Euro, whatever-o.
Although different cultures have differing values, Europeans also d not hold men or women who cheat on their spouses in high regard.
Although a single person who has an affair with a married one does carry some of the blame, the married is the one who is responsible for being faithful to their spouse.
I don't applaud Jain for having affairs with married men, however, the married men are more culpable, by virtue of being married in the first place. The responsibility to resist temptation rests on their shoulders, not her's.
Ah but dear PG, these boards are not merely populated by that species of desi that hails from America...and even the degenerate Europeans are put off by your shameless generalisations and exhibitionism.
87 · Meena said I apologise, but the comments to this blog post tread down a very familiar path that oddly members of the masculine gender are not subject to. It is frustrating to see the same reactions time and time and again, that women who sleep around must be lacking in character, frankly that is nobody's business. I do apologise for the wording of my post though.
To be fair I think the PC police comment was directed towards me. While there was nary a word remotely indecent in my deleted post, I daresay it would have caused you much distress!
A woman who has had sex in the past - and not just with long-term boyfriends
Do they exist any other way?
I am not saying it is wrong/right for Indian women to exclude Indian men,
It's not right or wrong, but make no mistake about what personality traits it exposes, namely, self-hatred and self-denial.
Before being smacked with the 'double-standard' label, I wonder how many ABD men (let alone DBD men) are truly comfortable with this for their potential wife. Just curious
Why qualifiy it? It seems to me as the ultimate paradox. We as human beings want other human beings that are high quality, and those high quality individuals, will be in high demand (ie wanted by others). yet we shriek in horror when the person we want has been with many people, when indirectly, that's the very same reason we want them. (because we know others do)
I remember going to a club w/ female friend that was very clingy. My value instantly tripled that night, women were giving me stares that would have otherwised given me the "social f*ck off"
So, assume every person you want has been wanted by countless others.
Translation?
Maybe it just means she's had bad experiences with desi men, or perhaps she has tried to date desi men but they did not show much interest in her??? Or maybe she's attracted to white or black men, or, or, or.
There could be so many reasons besides self-hatred or self-denial.
Maybe it just means she's had bad experiences with desi men, or perhaps she has tried to date desi men but they did not show much interest in her??? Or maybe she's attracted to white or black men, or, or, or
All of those reasons don't justify exclusion. Exclusion means an independent rule-set has been established, and deductive reasoning
Usually when women who say "they've had bad experiences with desi men" and draw a conclusion that any future desi men they meet are to be approached with caution, have internal biases.
By extension, all the bad experiences they've had have also been with men, so why not draw the sound conclusion of all men being negative, and have exclusionary attitudes towards them? Furthermore, if gender roles are socialized and men and women have no inherent behavioral traits or 'ways of looking at the world' (as many women would like to believe), the argument of women are drawn to men naturally is nullified.
No, the only rationale for drawing a rule-based conclusion of all desi-men being negative, and hence adopting an exclusionary attitude is a degree of self-hatred, or at the very least, an attitude of Indian-ness being fundamentally lower as far as social-agility is concerned.
"an attitude of Indian-ness being fundamentally lower as far as social-agility is concerned."
unless you marry Rushdie
I know many desi girls who will hit it with just about any gora who looks their way, but completely shut it off with a desi dude! But I gotta agree with HMF about the ‘social agility’ aspect of it. Speaking from experience, it’s so much easier to be socially agile with a gori partner and explore literally all its exciting nooks and corners together, than it is with a desi partner. And that has got to be a tremendous high, and very hard to give up if one gets hooked on it!
but desi dudes are not worth it unless she is getting the social benefits of marriage?
Brilliant insight. completely reinforces the claim I was making about many Indian women (certainly this one) having a clear internal bias toward Indian men being "nice guy provider types."
test
You got it backwards. If she spent her youth sleeping around with non-desis but did not marry one, and now is married to (or looking to marry) a desi, it means that non-desi men are only good to fool around with and use for sexual pleasure, b>NOT good enough to marry. While desi men, on the otherhand, are in fact, good enough to marry, and hence she's married to one.
So cheer up boys! She doesn't want to use you, she wants to truly love you - forever.
And how do you think that makes non-desi men feel? Like crap.
99 · HMF said
These nice guy providers then went to India, married a pretty Brown girl with nice eyes, less baggage and decent cooking skills.
I recall an episode 20 years ago on ITV in Queens, NY about a desi girl complaining the lack of good Indian men for marriage. Some things never change.
But Jain found her "nice Indian boy", didn't she?
Good on her!
She got the best of both worlds - from the American bedroom, to the Indian boardroom.
103 · helter skelter said
Did not read the book, I am not the target audience. I read an review on Guardian and how excited she was to meet a bania guy in India.
Well, who doesn't get excited meeting a guy in banian?
wink
wink
I'm a good cook, what chances do I stand landing a dbd alpha male?
105 · Jain Doe said
Funny, although I am not liking the anti-bania brigade.
You have little chance to land a dbd alpha male, you bring nothing appealing to the table compared to a south mumbai girl.
How do you know?
You don't even know me.
Besides cooking I have other skills.
Anyway, maybe you're not getting my "banian" jokes, if you're not from the Hindi belt.
107 · Jain Doe said
I did get your joke. I like your handle better, maybe you do have some redeeming qualities.
Having skills are great, but once you hit 30, your appeal drops faster than a DBDs baniyan.
LOL. Good one.
Come on! There are young men in their 20s in India who love us "shekshy aunties".
Anyway, being in my 30s I would go for a man no younger than 28 and no older than 40.
That's an 12 year range there, should be someone who can make me happy out there, I would think.
Think positive!
Like these lovely almond-shaped peepers???