Brownz have the same reasoning when it comes to being gay, funny enough. "*gasp* he can't be gay - he comes from such a good family..."

The belief is that educated people come from strong families in which you're taught the differences between right and wrong.

George W is proof against this.

The "good family" defense is used by everyone, not just Indians. My parents on LI have no Sindhis in their circle, so they can probably get an out by saying, "At least it was not a Bengali family."

“This case is very frightening for Indian families here,” said Bharat Jotwani, a wealthy friend of the Sabhnanis

Yes, Jotwani is a douchebag.

The only thing frightening about this case is the treatment the maids received. It's ridiculous how he is insinuating the they were convicting for being brown instead of convicted for being guilty.

The "good family" defense is used by everyone, not just Indians

Is it? I still don't understand what it means!

An action is either criminal or not
A person either committed that action or not
A person is either guilty of a crime or not.

Where does a person's family come into this? Is a family on trial or an individual?

Honestly, I've never heard this line of reasoning outside of desis.

Honestly, I've never heard this line of reasoning outside of desis.

Sometimes I have heard "Well he comes from a good Christian family" when watching the news about someone who has committed a crime. I think when people are part of a community, whatever it may be, they have a hard time believing someone in that community could actually do wrong.

"Honestly, I've never heard this line of reasoning outside of desis"

I am shocked by this piece of news......

Is it? I still don't understand what it means!

It's like, "He was quiet and kept to himself." that you hear uttered by the neighbor of a serial killer.

2008 may go down as the year Indians made their mark on the tabloid crime scene. Slavery on Long Island, contract killing in Atlanta, accelerant-aided homicide in metro Chicago.

FYI - none of these crimes were committed by confused American-born and raised Indians.

I agree that the "good family" or "how educated" defense is largely Indian. They still have not discovered that being very able & a sociopath are not mutually exclusive. Here in Western media we have evil geniuses, in India movies we just have fat goons

What I can’t understand is why their friend, Jotwani, thought that this would be a defense:

Oh, c'mon Ennis; either you're feigning surprise of out of touch with regular people. This is how normal people talk; in a sort of ethnocentric, tribalistic, borderline-racist framework often expressed in bombastic absolute terms.

Now lurking behing this scotch-weilding uncleji's statement is an element of truth: people from good families are less likely to commit crimes, and wealth is often a signifier of good values, like hard work. though offensive to capitalists and progressives alike, sociologically speaking, where you come from is the best indicator of where you'll end up. the abused child is more likely to become an abuser himself; the one from a family that values education more likely to get educated, and so it goes.

But he chose to express this thought in a completely unnuanced way mixed in with a good dose of indian ethnocentrism (ie racism) that's patently offensive to the latte-drinking progressive class, so attuned to the subtleties of language especially when it reveals hidden biases like classism and racism.

I drink lattes too, but I put some johnny walker in the cup; so i'm not so shocked.

Yep, this is pretty common mentality among desis (esp older generation) saying that 'cannot be true because he/she comes from a good family'. Or the reverse is 'so and so cannot be a good person because he/she comes from a stinking rich family'. I have also heard from an African American recently that 'she cannot be a bad person because she is Christian'. So, I think it is pretty common in different communities in a different way. People will generalize someway to defend their own.

The question remains: Why?

Were the (wealthy) criminals themselves damaged by their upbringing, in order to commit the abuse? (The "My Parents Didn't Love Me Enough" defense.) Or were they just "born bad"? (If there is such a thing...)

I have NO idea. But I can't think of the perpetrators as "normal".

i think it's laughable that wealth would be considered an indicator of moral values. wealthy families are also the ones that employ many servants, and although it's not unique to richer people, i would never be surprised to see a wealthy family treat their servants like second-class citizens. (these are of course generalizations based on my experiences with "upper class" folk in the desh.)

i don't know if the term "good christian family" is the same as "good indian family", if you look at the cultural weight put on the two words. to me christian, in the american context, implies a wholesomeness/morality whereas in the subcontinent "good" usually refers to class/wealth/status and moral character is of little value.

5 · Ennis said

An action is either criminal or not
A person either committed that action or not
A person is either guilty of a crime or not.

Come on, Ennis. You're a lawyer. The entire legal profession makes its living in the grey areas of perception, and tries to create sufficient doubt, that maybe the guilty are not guilty, and occasionally, even the reverse.

You correctly note that Jotwani may be inarticulate. I think his basic point is not that educated or wealthy people do not commit crimes, but that not all the gory specifics of what has been alleged here could possibly have occurred given what is known about the circumstances. Also, to stretch this a little, wealthy people do commit crimes, but usually not ones that involve slicing people's ears off with kitchen knives or feeding people their vomit. At least in American suburbia.

I've made this point before, but the overall guilty verdict does not mean everything said in court was proven to be true. It does not even mean they are actually guilty, just that the prosecutors were successfully able to convince the jury that they were, and/or that their own lawyers could not create sufficient doubt in the jury that they could be let off.

There are many other issues here. Do prosecutors coach witnesses? Of course. Do they choose certain cases to prosecute based on their perception of 'deterrent effect'? Of course. Can juries be swayed? Of course. Can prosecutorial bias extend to the race and/or ethnicity of the accused? Yes. Could that have happened here? Shouldn't we be asking?

people from good families are less likely to commit crimes, and wealth is often a signifier of good values, like hard work. though offensive to capitalists and progressives alike, sociologically speaking, where you come from is the best indicator of where you'll end up. the abused child is more likely to become an abuser himself; the one from a family that values education more likely to get educated, and so it goes.

Manju, You're saying something different from what Jotwani's saying.

After a crime, I've heard people wondering how little Johnny could have become a murder given the warm and loving family that he came from. They then say something like "I feel so sorry for his mother"

I've never heard somebody say, after the evidence has been laid out, and guilt assigned "Well, despite all the evidence, it couldn't possibly be true that Johnny's a murder because his mother was such a nice person" or more strangely "because his mother was so wealthy!"

Jotwani is saying the latter, your statement fits better with the former. Class is a lousy defense after the fact unless you're from a system where different people have different rights, and your class determines your moral worth.

Are Sabhnani's and Jotwani's... Sindhi?

"If you encounter a snake or a Sindhi, you kill the Sindhi first". I heard this from a Marathi friend.

That poor uncle has probably fought racism all of his fcking life, of both the subtle and not so subtle variety.. He has probably also experienced the xenophobia and racism that this country codifies into law. He underwent all this, to make sure his kids, pups like you, had a better life. He probably fought against all kinds of prejudice, to get where he is - Where folks don't automatically assume that he is some kind of lower life form because of his skin color and his accent and his papers and the food that he eats and the art he can't appreciate and the fashions he can't carry.

Along comes this case, where two folks of INDIAN (in caps to reflect the size of the INDIAN in the newspaper headlines about this case) origin are convicted of this horrendous crime, and everything that he has worked for all his life, his IZZAT / RESPECTABILITY, him being part of a community that's respectable, lies in tatters. And when asked by some pesky reporter, he tries to defend it.. may be in not as articulate a fashion as you pups would like, but then, you had a chance to go to fancy shmancy schools because of sacrifices made by uncles like him.

So young ABCD sardarji, at least try to understand where uncle is coming from. Before sitting in judgment on uncles inarticulateness, see how visceral an experience it is to see someone from your community being convicted of such a crime.

ennis, my guess is that absent a dead-body like in your little johnny argument, jotwani views this like a date-rape scenario, his word against hers. for him, the standard of "guilty beyond a resonable doubt" can only be met with a dead body and cruella holding a smoking gun, when you have wealthy indians from a good family vs. poor indonesians.

that's just the way it goes in the old world, sometimes in the new too.

tera baap: can you tell us what sort of codified prejudices Mr. Jotwani fought against? did he march across the Edmund Pettis Bridge? did he stage a sit in at diners to demand that hindoos be served too? or is his civil rights work done mainly via deeming other Indians innocent based on their ethnicity and annual income?

>>> can you tell us what sort of codified prejudices Mr. Jotwani fought against? did he march across the Edmund Pettis Bridge? did he stage a sit in at diners to demand that hindoos be served too? or is his civil rights work done mainly via deeming other Indians innocent based on their ethnicity and annual income?

Are you saying that only African Americans had to deal with prejudice ? Are you really that stupid know-it-all ABCD ? :-D

Simply because no Indians were lynched, doesn't mean that they didn't have to deal with their share of problems.

Tera Baap,

I don't know if I speak for anyone but I believe your point can be better made without resorting to personal attacks.

20 · Tera Baap said

Simply because no Indians were lynched, doesn't mean that they didn't have to deal with their share of problems.

Very true. One time, I went to a bar and they didn't serve Johnny Walker Black. But they had White Russians. I slapped the Indonesian next to me and left.

16 · TheBrownChamp said

Are Sabhnani's and Jotwani's... Sindhi?

"If you encounter a snake or a Sindhi, you kill the Sindhi first". I heard this from a Marathi friend.

LOL! I heard “If you encounter a snake or a Mallu, you kill the Mallu first!”

Must be a variation of this for every region in the old country!

Manju #22

This is the funniest comment I have read here in a long time. Thanks for the laughs

LOL @ manju hahah

tera baap: you can keep rambling incoherently about how us "stupid ABCD pups" (who actually uses the word pups? lol)don't know the sacrifices that you and your comrades made, or you can actually give examples of how racism against Indians is codified into law in this horrible land of bigots .

“If you encounter a snake or a Sindhi, you kill the Sindhi first”. I heard this from a Marathi friend.

Shaane, don’t drag us in it. We’re down w/ them Ulhasnagar peeps. Motawanis, Armanis, all of them.

Yes, they were Sindhi. No, that's no reason to start regurgitating anti-Sindhi stereotypes. As the above discussion reveals, some of the sayings about one group are actually madlibbed. Let's not linger on this topic ...

Sometimes I have heard "Well he comes from a good Christian family" when watching the news about someone who has committed a crime.

right, but isn't that more from the sense of disbelief? Ie the reactions to the Columbine killings even though its a "good, wholesome [read: white], suburban town"? Not that his statements are justified, I just don't think they are necessarily a defense, rather a register of shock and disbelief.

Tera baap,

Even though my dad broke his back to send his kids to fancy shmancy schools, he doesn't suffer from the delusion that his respectability is tied up with that of every other desi's and understands that the wretched come in all hues. Furthermore, my father is not so self-centered as to put his izzat over the izzat of those poor maids who will have to suffer the psychological fallout of their treatment for the rest of their lives. Please don't pretend to speak on behalf of all of those in your generation for they are not you.

No true Indian?

Manju: "Very true. One time, I went to a bar and they didn't serve Johnny Walker Black. But they had White Russians. I slapped the Indonesian next to me and left."

HAHAHA!!

Even though my dad broke his back to send his kids to fancy shmancy schools, he doesn't suffer from the delusion that his respectability is tied up with that of every other desi's and understands that the wretched come in all hues. Furthermore, my father is not so self-centered as to put his izzat over the izzat of those poor maids who will have to suffer the psychological fallout of their treatment for the rest of their lives. Please don't pretend to speak on behalf of all of those in your generation for they are not you.

Sure.. Your daddy is the bestest and the most enlightened daddy in the whole world.. but spare a thought for those who are lesser mortals than your precious daddy.

At least try to understand, where Jotwani(?) uncle is coming from.. And what he is trying to protect in his inarticulate voice.

>>>> you can keep rambling incoherently about how us "stupid ABCD pups" (who actually uses the word pups? lol)don't know the sacrifices that you and your comrades made, or you can actually give examples of how racism against Indians is codified into law in this horrible land of bigots .

Why dont you ask your dad/mom ? I am sure they would help you understand :-)

>>> Very true. One time, I went to a bar and they didn't serve Johnny Walker Black. But they had White Russians. I slapped the Indonesian next to me and left

Yup.. model minority never faced any racism/xenophobia ;-)

Sure.. Your daddy is the bestest and the most enlightened daddy in the whole world.. but spare a thought for those who are lesser mortals than your precious daddy.

whoa. relax buddy.

Tera Baap:

1. If you use the quotation codes, it'll make it easier to read your remarks. In most browsers they're listed right above the comment window, right after it says "Comments"
Just highlight the code that you are quoting and click on the quotation marks. If you prefer to write html code, you want to use the blockquote tags.

2. Please don't bait and don't make personal remarks. The conversation degenerates very quickly when people start to do that.

"At least try to understand, where Jotwani(?) uncle is coming from.. And what he is trying to protect in his inarticulate voice."

Well, notwithstanding the fact that they are "educated, nice people" apparently they were found guilty by a court of law. Could the Sabhnani's afford good lawyers with their millions? Maybe the judge was racist? Even abused Indonesian maids are fairer skinned than us in the eyes of whitey.

@@CdnMedStudent

>>>> Well, notwithstanding the fact that they are "educated, nice people" apparently they were found guilty by a court of law. Could the Sabhnani's afford good lawyers with their millions? Maybe the judge was racist? Even abused Indonesian maids are fairer skinned than us in the eyes of whitey.

The post and subsequent comments were about uncles comments, not about the nature of Sabnanis trial and guilt.

Simply put, the author was expressing incomprehension, asking, Why would uncle say such a thing ?

To say that - yeah yeah, uncle is racist, uncle is caste-ist, uncle is first gen Indian-American, uncle is evil, uncle has bad breath, uncle is uncle - is simplistic.

It doesn't take into account what uncles went through to get where they are and doesn't question if their fear of being in the negative spotlight is justified or not.

i think the "uncle" here is the more *normal* than american born brownz who think his behavior and comment is strange. by "normal" i mean closer to the human average, not necessarily better. college-educated americans from a particular social and economic background are schooled in speaking and thinking of themselves and other people and groups in a particular way. sometimes it is hard to remember i think that that's a specific folkway, even if it is the dominant folkway in american *discourse* (as opposed to discussion :-)

after 9/11 many american muslims were skeptical that osama bin laden was behind that atrocity in anyway, or that muslims were. because *by definition* muslims wouldn't commit that sort of crime. people have particular frameworks when it comes to their ingroups vs. outgroups, and their set of prior assumptions make it likely that they'll engage in these sorts of rationalizations.

p.s. on a much milder note i have know of white secular liberals aghast that the offspring of so & so converted to evangelical christianity and is now a republican. the comments are often along the lines of "i mean, he had everything, it isn't like he needed to be bitter about his economic situation, he had all the privileges in the world...."

Simply put, the author was expressing incomprehension, asking, Why would uncle say such a thing ?

To say that - yeah yeah, uncle is racist, uncle is caste-ist, uncle is first gen Indian-American, uncle is evil, uncle has bad breath, uncle is uncle - is simplistic.

I doubt that was Ennis's intent - to simply categorize Uncle as a one-dimensional caricature.

It doesn't take into account what uncles went through to get where they are and doesn't question if their fear of being in the negative spotlight is justified or not.

Agreed - racism and xenophobia can be worse for DBDs than ABD (note I left out the C). However, that doesn't justify standing by someone who mistreated others, even if it's unthinkable that someone with that izzat could ever do this.

I believe the point is that we cannot pick and choose who to shun based on how respectable the person is, regardless of culture. It leads to an ethical seesaw - what if the couple were not respectable? Then it would be ok to shun them?

and just to make it clear, college-educated americans who are well versed in the sort of sensitivities which are now normative among that group have their own shibboleths and ingroup vs. outgroup ticks.

I think something that we can all agree on is that there is absolutely no reason to defend this couple, even if they do hail from the same country as our parents (or we) do. I think the point the OP was trying to make was that Mr. Jotwani had no basis for assuming the slavers were innocent because they were rich Indians.

tera baap: if you have encountered so much racism here in America, why don't you return to your village in Hindustan where life was perfect?

“There is no way on earth any Indian family in the United States could do what they were accused of,” he said. “The [Indian] people I know here all feel this way. Anybody from India who has come here comes from a very good family…”

He underwent all this, to make sure his kids, pups like you, had a better life.

I think lost in all this is the crime and the details of the crime that the Sabhnani's were accused of. I wonder if the Uncle in question read the details or saw the evidence on the bodies of the maids who were abused. Here is a link to the NYTimes with some fairly graphics pictures. I think most of the people here are objecting to a blanket statement that the Uncle in question was making ... almost in denial about the fact that people of a certain class and type cannot commit these crimes. It has nothing to do with previous discrimination but rather the immediate knee jerk reaction to defend anything of his class and type. It's a thinking that goes with people like us do not do things like that ... even in the face of massive evidence to the contrary. It's comes with a certain sense of entitlement.

On another note, Manju put it much more succinctly and humorously when he described slapping an Indonesian over a perceived slight. At the risk of over explaining his point I'll say some of the abuse I've seen by Desis of mexican and south american workers in their grocery stores and restaurants would make you cringe. It's a power differential where even if you have no power in the larger society you can wield power over people you perceive are weaker than you.

Jotwani is an idiot.

Talwar

Johnny Valker >>>> if you have encountered so much racism here in America, why don't you return to your village in Hindustan where life was perfect?

Aha !! Out comes the inner red neck..

Just as an FYI, the reason I came to America was to steal American jobs, fornicate with American women and in general spread my filth around.

I wont leave until I achieve all that, and theres nothing you or your daddy can do about it.. B-)

46 · Tera Baap said

Johnny Valker >>>> if you have encountered so much racism here in America, why don't you return to your village in Hindustan where life was perfect?
Aha !! Out comes the inner red neck..

Are you saying no self-repecting Indian would be seen dead with Johnny Valker Red?

"inner red neck"

speaking of prejudices which can be mooted in "polite" company.... :-)

It's a power differential where even if you have no power in the larger society you can wield power over people you perceive are weaker than you.

i think one can make a case that a rich brown long islander experiences particular disabilities in comparison to a poor white resident of appalachia. nevertheless, i think the reduction of power as purely a function of racial identity to the total operational neglect of class is something which often emerges among brown americans. despite the reality that there are many working class and poor brownz, the fact is that the community is on average an affluent once, and the children of the suburbs who went to "good schools" and landed "good jobs" are i think more likely to speak and address the issue of racial oppression than working class brownz who have more proximate concerns than the macro-level power structures in society (despite the fact that they are much more salient to them than a brown american MD who receives slights but still banks 200 K per year).

>>>> are you arguing that he is implying that the sabhnanis locking up and abusing their employees was necessary to provide the sabhnani 'pups' with a better life?

No. I am saying that uncles have worked really hard to get where they are and to help pups like *you* get where you are.. An inarticulate statement borne out of fear of having to face renewed prejudice - subtle and in your face - does not say anything about the world view of the person who made that statement.

FWIW, implicit in the statement is also the tacit position that a crime like the one that sabnanis have been convicted of is a terrible crime.

>>>> or that jotwani's making illogical/unsupported statements is somehow necessary to giving his own kids a good life, or that his provision of said good life warrants ignoring his remarks or condoning of the abuse?

I think I already agreed the uncle was being inarticulate/obtuse with his statement, very much like you in fact.. :-P

>>>> furthermore, he completely did a disservice to his community and its izzat, as you mention - he should have stated that despite the disappointing verdict, he hopes that it does not reflect poorly on the US-Indian community as a whole, since many/most (but not all) are law-abiding, hard-working members of american society. i understand that he may not have been sufficiently articulate in the spotlight, but you don't say something unless you believe it. the worst part is, he didn't say this personally about the sabhnanis - that they are wonderful people, i can't believe they'd do this etc - he completely denied that an entire group is incapable of committing any crimes of any nature. your defense of jotwani is not much different than his defense of the sabhnanis - and at least he knows them personally.

Yeah Yeah.. I should be in jail just like the Sabhnanis.. OK ? Now band together with Johnny Valker and try your best to send my filthy ass back to desh. :-D

@manju
>>>> Are you saying no self-repecting Indian would be seen dead with Johnny Valker Red?

No.. every ethnic Indian, self respecting or not, should cower in fear when wannabe whites spout xenophobic garbage.

Very true. One time, I went to a bar and they didn't serve Johnny Walker Black. But they had White Russians. I slapped the Indonesian next to me and left.

Are you saying no self-repecting Indian would be seen dead with Johnny Valker Red?

Manju - you are making me LOL!

AK:

or some magical transformation happens on the AI flight over?

The magic of AI is well known to airport crews. The rodents which get on board AI in India can be trapped by using masala vada as bait. But the ones that board AI outside India respond only to Swiss cheese and chocolate.

Manju - you are making me LOL!

Cmon now...he/she is not that funny.

Brownz have the same reasoning when it comes to being gay, funny enough. "*gasp* he can't be gay - he comes from such a good family..."

Off-topic but it seems Sindhi, Gujew and Hindu Punjabi families are more open-minded about gays than other Indian groups. The only Indian gay/bisexual/lesbians, I met, are from the Sindhi, Hindu Punjabi and Gujew community.

Any gay/bisexual/lesbians from these three communities can comment on this?

i think the reduction of power as purely a function of racial identity to the total operational neglect of class is something which often emerges among brown americans.

Right on, Razib!!

brown american MD who receives slights but still banks 200 K per year).

An MD with a little bit of "get up and go" can easily do better than 200K!! I mean, really, some physicians really are upper middle class!
;-)

50 · Tera Baap said

No.. every ethnic Indian, self respecting or not, should cower in fear when wannabe whites spout xenophobic garbage.

first i'm a stupid ABCD pup (i'm still laughing at that word) , then a redneck, and now a wannabe white. i guess everyone who feels those slavers should be punished is automatically a self hating redneck wannabe, eh Uncleji?

btw, i still want to know which anti Indian laws you had to overcome in order to make it in this country.

>>>> first i'm a stupid ABCD pup (i'm still laughing at that word) , then a redneck, and now a wannabe white. i guess everyone who feels those slavers should be punished is automatically a self hating redneck wannabe, eh Uncleji?

No.. but pricks and xenophobes who say "Go home.." to other immigrants most certainly are rednecks, if they are brown, they are self hating wannabe whites.

>>>> btw, i still want to know which anti Indian laws you had to overcome in order to make it in this country.

Why don't you ask your dad.. ? And what will you do even I tell my experiences to you ?

Regarding comment #3 about Bengalis, a Malika Ghosh Garrett has been charged in Atlanta with mistreating a nanny she illegally brought from India. There is also a case of a couple (not sure where in the subcontinent they are from) allegedly mistreating a Latina maid in the Silicon Valley. What is going on??

No.. but pricks and xenophobes who say "Go home.." to other immigrants most certainly are rednecks, if they are brown, they are self hating wannabe whites.

Yellow card. Language directed at another commenter. Argue the position, not the person please.

>>>> Yellow card. Language directed at another commenter. Argue the position, not the person please.

You tolerate folks asking others to "Go Home..", and when someone calls them out as Xenophobes/Racists when they do that, you say "Yellow Card"..

May be you should have invited the kids who yelled "go home.." at you into your home and argued your position with them instead of chasing them around with a baseball bat..

I didn't like that first part either, but I don't like to meddle directly. Once we get into pricks and xenophobes and direct name calling I know it's going to go downhill fast so I stepped in and blew the whistle.

Please, both of you. Argue the position not the person.

Honestly, I've never heard this line of reasoning outside of desis.

Classic!

LOL.

ennis, what if she had gone scot free as opposed to getting convicted ? would you then be indignant as well ? if yes, you've already made up your mind she's guilty, why bother with arguing position vs person, might as well just argue & get it done with.

ennis - this is a context confusion. I can understand what might have prompted the defence. Remember that the Sabhnanis and the Jotwanis come from a collectivist society with high power difference. Poor choice of words. the person was found guilty, end of story. Jotwani's explanation is a classic DBD excuse - one that is rarely understood by ABDs. . And I am NOT defending anyone here. Do the crime, do the time is a hard concept to grasp for many DBDs. The appropriate response to Jotwani is "Sabhanani and his spouse have brought shame and disgrace to our community. They need to excommunicated. How can you defend them".
And to the commenters who talked about one set of laws for the aam junta and another for the powerful - certainly more true in India than in the West. Sabhananis are not aam junta by desi standards and hence need to be held to a higher standard.

60 · Tera Baap said

You tolerate folks asking others to "Go Home..", and when someone calls them out as Xenophobes/Racists when they do that, you say "Yellow Card".

Wrong. I didn't tell you to back to India because of your ethnicity (which would be hypocritical to say the least), but rather due to your repeated claims of how America is such an anti Indian country and also your condescension towards ABDs. Keep up the Uncle Tom insinuations, it's really helping your argument.

i do agree with the earlier posters who said that this is a common reaction from just about all families, friends, and neighbors of criminals, regardless of race or class, i.e. "He was such a good kid , he never could have done anything like that!" etc. What irked me about your posts were your low personal attacks against others and your endless rants about how the first generation sacrificed so much in the face of vicious bigotry and we stupid ABDs don't know an iota about it.

53 · TheBrownChamp said

Cmon now...he/she is not that funny.

Oh, Puh-leeze Brown Champ...you're just jealous of my way with the ladies.

>>>> Wrong. I didn't tell you to back to India because of your ethnicity (which would be hypocritical to say the least), but rather due to your repeated claims of how America is such an anti Indian country and also your condescension towards ABDs. Keep up the Uncle Tom insinuations, it's really helping your argument.

Regardless of your reasons, its a xenophobic thing to say. You can squirm left and right but it is what you said.. An immigrant asking another to "Go Home.." deserves the epithet that you think I was insinuating.

Rest of the garbage you spout is not even worth responding to.

An immigrant asking another to "Go Home.." deserves the epithet that you think I was insinuating.

your interlocutor identified themselves as "american born." so they're not an immigrant.

razib, I essentially agree with you that class dictates the power structure but often browns( and other groups) make a distinction (incorrectly) that class and race are tied, hence you have stereotypes that in the real world have implications. But we've got into another area and strayed from the topic of this thread.

I'm still waiting for someone to show how Uncleji's past caused him to come to the defense of criminal behavior and torture or the defendants maids. His statements as I have said before come from a sense of entitlement of his group.

i don't think anyone who knows how domestic servants are abused in india, or in any of the southasian, southeast asian and middleastern countries would be surprised by these atrocities. she was just a little bit more monsterish. i think the feeling of having the power of life or deportation over these people must be heady.

that class and race are tied, hence you have stereotypes that in the real world have implications

race and class are tied. white liberals routinely conflate race and class because minorities, as a whole, are poorer than and less wealthy than whites. i recall in '96 a white liberal friend of mine stated that welfare reform was racist. he seemed a big chagrined when i pointed out that though a larger proportion of non-whites are on welfare, at any given time most people on welfare are white.

in any case, a subset of asian american groups are very affluent and were raised in nice suburbs and went to nice schools. yes, they were subject to racism and discrimination that alex johnson IV would never be, but they also have some advantages over cletus smith. the world is complex, but alas discourse is not....

[deleted for vulgarity, try again]

KXB:

Statement 1: The "good family" defense is used by everyone, not just Indians. My parents on LI have no Sindhis in their circle, so they can probably get an out by saying, "At least it was not a Bengali family.

Statement 2: FYI - none of these crimes were committed by confused American-born and raised Indians

====
Hypocritical much?

TheBrownChamp: "If you encounter a snake or a Sindhi, you kill the Sindhi first". I heard this from a Marathi friend.
"If you are in the jungle and see a poisonous snake and an Indian, kill the Indian first" Malaysian and Indonesian saying.

People are so cute sometimes...

====================

Johnny Valker: can you tell us what sort of codified prejudices Mr. Jotwani fought against? did he march across the Edmund Pettis Bridge? did he stage a sit in at diners to demand that hindoos be served too? or is his civil rights work done mainly via deeming other Indians innocent based on their ethnicity and annual income?

Have you ever heard of the notion of the "lace curtain Irish." In the United States most Ethnic/National groups have had some wealthy or educated people immigrate along with the of lower echelons of poorer/less educated swathes. Now you don't have to have a thorough perusal of history to realize that these two groups were treated differently. There are many many many Indians who come to this country, who are treated with a greater amount of Prejudice than most of the Doctors/Engineers (and their kids) who moved here.

Manju: Very true. One time, I went to a bar and they didn't serve Johnny Walker Black. But they had White Russians. I slapped the Indonesian next to me and left.

Pithy....very pithy...patronizing too, but that comes with the territory and hard work of trying to educating the immigrants to the American way of life and sense of humor I guess.

razib: your interlocutor identified themselves as "american born." so they're not an immigrant.

Would the appropriate response then be "after you"?

Not that I'm trying to pull a shake n' bake with the puppy-hating gentleman above against the ABDs but I think "tera baap" for all his virulence was trying to make the point that a certain amount of cultural understanding is lacking among the Americans whose parents are of Indian origin (is that approximate enough?) for the Immigrants who are of Indian origin. And I believe (again this is just me reading through the many insults) that he finds this deficiency baffling because these Americans should have a great Cultural IQ due to their lifelong exposure to their parents.

Erratum: greater Cultural IQ

I am a DBD and back in the 90s, I constantly heard this ("We are all educated, nice people") and its variations "Our family is a nice one" or "Our family is a respectable one" or "Such a thing has never happened before in our family", etc....I was aghast, because guess what brought out such comments - I was going through a divorce!
I don't think I'll ever quite understand what "nice" means when an Indian utters it.

I had a boss who was from one the the "right" families in rye/greenwich. HE used to complain that his parents used to say about someone that at least we knew they came from a "good family". He used to respond. "No. we dont know if they come from a good family....we know they are from a rich family. they can be complete degenerates with money..." That leads me to believe its not something only people of indian descent say.

"i don't think anyone who knows how domestic servants are abused in india, or in any of the southasian, southeast asian and middleastern countries would be surprised by these atrocities"

WHAT????I spent the first 30 years of my life in Pune,India and I am shocked to hear of the atrocities. Yes we had all kinds of maids in India, but no I never heard of anyone treating their maids in such a disgusting manner. One of our maids, who has been with us for almost 2 decades, has the same place in our house as our grandma. I do not know of any household that treated their maids the way the sabhnani lady treated them.

And now when I go back to India on my annual visits and see my cousins who have 3-4 different maids in their house, I am pleasantly surprised! My cousin speaks to her maid more lovingly than she would speak to her hubby. The maid goes on vacations without telling my cousin, and there is no way my cousin can shout at her when she comes back......infact my sis made her a cup of tea and listened to her vacation stories! My friends maid's kids all get to go to good schools, camps all courtesy of my friend.
One shout and the maid is gone and everyone and I mean everyone in India knows how difficult it is to get a good maid.

BTW, totally agree with tera baap.......no point analyzing jotwani uncles comment. I think they are totally taken out of context i.e we don't know what question the reporter asked him. Also he just found out his best friend is going to jail....he is emotional and shocked. Leave him alone.

Peace.

One shout and the maid is gone and everyone and I mean everyone in India knows how difficult it is to get a good maid.

The magic of AI is well known to airport crews. The rodents which get on board AI in India can be trapped by using masala vada as bait. But the ones that board AI outside India respond only to Swiss cheese and chocolate.

No. I am saying that uncles have worked really hard to get where they are and to help pups like *you* get where you are..

An inarticulate statement borne out of fear of having to face renewed prejudice - subtle and in your face - does not say anything about the world view of the person who made that statement.

I think "tera baap" for all his virulence was trying to make the point that a certain amount of cultural understanding is lacking among the Americans whose parents are of Indian origin (is that approximate enough?) for the Immigrants who are of Indian origin. And I believe (again this is just me reading through the many insults) that he finds this deficiency baffling because these Americans should have a great Cultural IQ due to their lifelong exposure to their parents.

23 · Kev said

16 · TheBrownChamp said

Are Sabhnani's and Jotwani's... Sindhi?

"If you encounter a snake or a Sindhi, you kill the Sindhi first". I heard this from a Marathi friend.

LOL! I heard “If you encounter a snake or a Mallu, you kill the Mallu first!”
Must be a variation of this for every region in the old country!

every region of india has their own "snake theory". i actually heard the sindhi variant of the snake theory from a punjabi friend of mine. in southern india, we've heard the mallu version: "If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first."

Read a few more of the comments and seriously the ABD commentors need to know that a good maid in india is worshipped like a goddess. One is considered extremely lucky if he/she has a maid who can do the work with minimal supervision and is also trustworthy at the same time. If you find one like that, you have to treat them nothing short of a family member, meet all their demands and literally go out of your way to please them. If not you run the risk of loosing them to your neighbor and everyone in urban India knows that is the worst thing to happen in your very busy lifestyle. And a lot of money does not get you a good maid in INdia, you really have to love and nurture them!
One of my aunts gave me this piece of advice for a good successful marraige: Get a good maid, love her like family member and hang on to her forever.

If you find one like that, you have to treat them nothing short of a family member, meet all their demands and literally go out of your way to please them. If not you run the risk of loosing them to your neighbor and everyone in urban India knows that is the worst thing to happen in your very busy lifestyle.

Read a few more of the comments and seriously the ABD commentors need to know that a good maid in india is worshipped like a goddess

I've seen that, but honestly it was more in the old days, when people were attached to families for good. I've also seen the marketization of domestic service help conditions for servants, they can walk away when they want.

Sadly, however, I've seen more bad treatment than good (although more indifferent treatment than either).

In any case, the conditions in LI were different. The women couldn't leave so there was no need to treat them well.

For ppl who can afford luxuries either in India or the US, the luxury becomes a necessity.
Car= luxury in India but necessity in america; Maid= necessity in India but luxury in america

Car= luxury in India but necessity in america;

Please feast on the expense of this Aunty too..
Family(Aunty) accused of modern slavery in Atlanta

Ennis, totally disagree. INfact in the old days, the maid was not that much of a necessity.....but today with the nuclear family system, one has to depend a lot on the maid and hence treat them extra nice and keep them happy.

Yes, they can walk away whenever they want and unfortunately that was not the case in LI

AK, you can pretty much live in ANY city in India and do without a car. A rickshaw, taxi, bus is just a yell away. I have lived in the burbs in philly for 5 years and now in Raleigh and it is impossible to live without a car in any of these places. And that is for the majority of US except for NY may be.

I've had a crawling in my heart and head since this story broke. My inlaws live not too far from the Sabnanis and for all intents and purposes the entire desi community of that generation is quite connected. I know quite a few people that know them. For the most part the story made me squirm because like the Sabnani's almost all the desi families I know from LI in that area have maids/cooks including my inlaws and this was just one of those unbelievable stories that took everyone by shock. People who have known the Sabnani's personally had no idea this was going on and I believe the few I know. That it happened so systematically is just incredibly tragic. I guess I have failed to understand till now having watched this closely why these women didn't leave a long time ago.

The thing is that I've seen maids treated differently in a lot of these households during different times. Families where there are younger kids where the maids are primary caregivers to them tend to have a emotional bond with their maids. Families who don't have younger people in the home, and generally have grandparents in the home who have a certain way of dealing with maids in India tend to be rather clinical in how they treat their maids.

The whole thing makes me squirm because of how the Sabnani's were touted as these rich rotten people. The vast majority of Mutton Town, Syosset, Dix Hills, Woodbury, West Hills desi community that is very very affluent worked their asses off to get their money. None of those families come from money so it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that the community has gotten shyt about their homes and wealth because of the Sabananis. Nothing was handed to them for free. It's just shitty that wealth was viewed as a bad thing because there were maids involved.

as someone who has lived without both a car and a maid for the last 15 years or so, i can definitively say that i consider neither to be a necessity. and not everyone in america has a car.

ak, if you live in within city limits of a thorough metro system (say New York, DC even, maybe even Beantown), a car is not a necessity, in fact it's usually a burden. If you live w/out a car my guess is you live in one of these areas.

Jaisingh @ 80:

You are either as good a writer as Prosper Merimee* or you are confusing how families back in India (intend to) treat supple, young, demure bahus and/or a good milking cow (well, except for the part about losing to the neighbour).

Either way, your memsahib characters do not get my sympathy. Sorry.

*Prosper Merimee...combines witty and accurate social observation with acute psychological insight. The plot is simple, if not banal; but in his account[s]...[all] is achieved with great economy--a passing comment, a suggestive detail, a gesture, a word--as well as by most careful construction; and we are left with an indelible impression of the complexities and ironies of love [for maid] in the modern world.

-- Douglas Parmee, 1964

84 · ak said

food, housing, clothing, a modicum of money to afford all these - but everything else is just extra.

83 · jaisingh said

Car= luxury in India but necessity in america

Sometimes You Need Stupid, "Planes, Trains, and Automobiles" The Movie

Honey(my wife, who loves Steve Martin, like most Indian women), You would enjoy this moovie

food, housing, clothing, a modicum of money to afford all these - but everything else is just extra.

for 50% of the population, jewelry is added to the list.

Ohh Malathi, thanks for calling me a memsahib! JK:) Even today's Indian maids would downright refuse to call anyone that. They stick to didi instead.
Neway, I was not trying to behave like anyone or gain sympathy???(why would I do that???). Just giving you the real picture.
I was in Pune last march hunting for a house and I liked this small community on Pune-nagar road which is almost an hour away from the city, kind of sits in the middle of nowhere, and I asked a neighbor who moved in a couple of months ago (pretty new community)how he likes living there and he said it is very peaceful, no noise, pollution but the biggest drawback is maids refuse to come here because it is not very accessible unless you have a 2 or 4 wheeler.

last I heard, the community is selling very slow..........

Jaisingh,

I am not calling *you* a memsahib. If I were you, I would consider it a compliment to be compared with Prosper Merimee and then, say no more.

Also, Jaisingh,

Please refrain from generalizing the situation for maids in India based on your experience in Pune. As a DBD who has had some chances to observe the marketability and working conditions of maids in Banglore, Delhi and Chennai (and other rural and urban places in Tamil Nadu), I am left with the impression that things are not even across the nation.

73 · RahulD said

Have you ever heard of the notion of the "lace curtain Irish." In the United States most Ethnic/National groups have had some wealthy or educated people immigrate along with the of lower echelons of poorer/less educated swathes. Now you don't have to have a thorough perusal of history to realize that these two groups were treated differently. There are many many many Indians who come to this country, who are treated with a greater amount of Prejudice than most of the Doctors/Engineers (and their kids) who moved here.

"Lace curtain Irish", and their Italian counterparts the "Wonder Bread WOPs" are slurs used by the working class members of the respective community to indicate that the upper classes are whitewashed. Less affluent Indian immigrants may have a harder time financially in this country, but I fail to see how discrimination would differ. To racists, an Indian doctor is just as much a "dothead" as the Indian gas pumper. Remember that the first victim of the "Dotbusters" in NJ was a doctor.

Furthermore, my original question still has not been answered: What laws did our parents have to change in order to succeed here?

I've never heard "lace curtain Irish" being a slur, specially it being used in books and in my neighborhood which is an Irish one...calling someone Irish and calling someone a wop is not the same thing, I'm pretty sure. And no it has nothing to do with their communities being "whitewashed" (what a lovely term by the way), but with the lack of connection...not unlike the one the ABD's have with the DBD's in many instances, except it seems more pronounced among Indians.

I was trying to play devil's advocate, but now that you apparently had asked a question - I'll try to answer it while trying to keep the same role.

There don't need to be Government authorized laws for discrimination to exist!. Again, I certainly think that Indians haven't had to face as much racism as Blacks in the United States but that does not mean that people like Mr. Jothwani haven't faced enough to affect their worldview significantly!

I'm not so sure that the comments made by Mr. Jotwani are particularly unique to the desi community. When the media first started focusing on child sexual predators (I'm thinking late 80's to mid 90's) the common refrain was shock and disbelief whenever the accused turned out to be a "family man"(code for suburban and middle class or higher). The dissonance between the nature of the crime and the public face presented by the accused can stretch peoples' credulity beyond the snapping point so that they believe the authorities must have gotten it wrong or the victim is a liar. People have become more exposed and inured to the idea that predation can be committed as easily by the Scout leader accountant who throws an annual block party as by the wino hanging out in an alley near the school, so you hear less of it these days. However, every so often, the "good family (including educated)" defence will pop up for a particularly shocking crimes (especially when a prep school student/graduate is involved).

I think the key element is whether or not one believes in the integrity of the justice system. If you have enough distrust of the system, then the dissonance between the crime and the accused/convicted will lead you to believe that the system has made a mistake (whether the mistake is Duke or O.J.). If you believe that the system has functioned properly then your reaction to the conviction of someone you identify with will more likely veer towards shock and sorrow rather than shock and disbelief. Personal factors, including previous experiences of racial injustice by the authorities, lying witnesses or prejudice, can certainly colour one's belief in the capabilities of the system. Given the added stress of knowing that the entire group may very well be tainted by the actions of a few, I'm not as surprised by the comments of Mr. Jotwani.

Jai Singh et al: I've seen both the worship and poor treatment of maids in India, but more worship in the last five years or so. Again, it depends on the employer and circumstances. Asian maids in Arab nations have it the worst, though, as a lot of you regular SM readers are aware.

Why should I refrain from putting my thoughts out there, malathi? My observations are based on situations in Pune and Mumbai. It would be naive to assume that the situation is the same all over India. Its like a white person looking at rural pictures of india, and assuming that the whole of India is like that:)

Maitri,

'Worship' in the context of maids in India is a loaded concept. Naipaul has depicted it much better than I ever can hope to in his short story 'One out of Many' included in his booker-prize winner 'In a Free State'. I believe that other South Asian writers have also touched upon this issue, but I am not able to recall any more specific references right now (I need to check my shelf at home).

Jaisingh, I did not ask you to refrain from putting your thoughts out; only from generalizing. Did I mention that Merimee is extremely, intentionally funny? Your comment # 80, whether you intended to or not, gave me the same LOL moments. So please don't stop putting your thoughts out there.

In my experience of living in New Delhi/Bombay and Guwahati for 27 years I have seen fair amounts of both ill treatment and treatment of help as family members. Jai Singh, the respect that you imply is that because of supply shortage or change in attitudes?

#80 "One of my aunts gave me this piece of advice for a good successful marraige: Get a good maid, love her like family member and hang on to her forever."

jaisingh, I'm pretty sure your aunt was basically asking you to marry the maid.

Jaisingh presents a datapoint that I don't doubt is valid, but from what I have seen this seems to be the less common scenario. Good drivers are in short supply in most metros and are beginning to be treated better (their employers put them up in some hotel during travel) but maids/domestics are not. The only exception is in households where they expect someone of the same caste to handle the food. It's pretty hard for old school Brahmins to find Brahmin cooks (or pujaris) as most are professionals. Ditto for veg Jains and Marwaris. Other than that it is is pretty damn easy unless you are looking for someone with a CV like Mary Poppins that you can pay a pittance. That's why in Bangalore you have services like eBaba, people complaining that they can't find help when they in fact can if they weren't so damn stingy and paid enough to keep the maid and her kids out of the slums. In TN, I can say that less than 20% of the households I see treat their servants with dignity (e.g. use the respectful forms when addressing elder servants, having them eat with you when possible). And a good 20% are physically abusive though not in the spectacularly degenerate way of the Shabnanis. I'm sure I'll be taken to task about it, but I often get embarrassed going out to eat with desis who think they can bark at people here the way do at the "help" in India

These two got what they deserve. I am sure they will have fun in prison,I don't care what race or how rich you are you can still be an ass.

"jaisingh, I'm pretty sure your aunt was basically asking you to marry the maid"

Yes! That is why I cried like a baby when I had to leave the maid and accept this maidless life! How I miss her every single day! She definately was the key to my happy marraige.......now we sacrifice and compromise on a daily basis:)
Louiecypher, don't even get me started on the drivers! Good drivers are as rare in India as polar bears in Iceland!
Also my maid of 5 years in India was of a different caste than mine and same goes for many of my friends/cousins households. From what I have seen, our generation places more emphasis on the maids cleanliness/habits/skills etc than her caste.

106 · jaisingh said

"jaisingh, I'm pretty sure your aunt was basically asking you to marry the maid"

Yes! That is why I cried like a baby when I had to leave the maid and accept this maidless life! How I miss her every single day! She definately was the key to my happy marraige.......

Maybe you two were just not maid for each other?

I recall a similar incident to the 'good family' quote in the article. The President of our India-based company was explaining to me why one of our employees was a good candidate for a promotion. After a few generic points (hard worker, good school etc.) his clinching argument was that he came from a 'good family'. I remembered that back in desh it is very acceptable to mention your parents' occupation in resumes.

94 · Malathi said

... I would consider it a compliment to be compared with Prosper Merimee...

If I prosper, will you meri mee? :-)

What do you all have against snakes?

"People have become more exposed and inured to the idea that predation can be committed as easily by the Scout leader accountant who throws an annual block party as by the wino hanging out in an alley near the school, so you hear less of it these days."

If the operative words here are "as likely", I doubt this is true. I THINK what the uncleji means with his seemingly astoundingly stupid comment is that such behavior is highly unlikely among people statistically like these good people and please give the good people a chance to explain, please. Not that I buy that personally.
While we all need to be reminded that those of all classes/nationalities/races/ethnicities/religions/jobs, blah, blah, blah, commit crimes, it's just being deliberately obtuse to think there are no statistical predictors, depending on where you are. One crime the smart and powerful do commit hugely is the crime of social manipulation and they know all the tricks because they know all the stats. I've seen them in action.
Statistically, educated and middle to higher SES, are not "as likely" to commit crimes of violence. Aside from their more comfortable circumstances, the very qualities one needs to get an education--thinking things through, assessing consequences, worrying about the opinions and feelings of others, perhaps some innate brain power, how it would affect your career--these are just less exercised among poorer, less educated people, at least not in a way most of us would understand.
Among higher SES groups, expect more crimes like fraud perhaps; political crimes (some of the worst on the planet), embezzlement, general nastiness and snobbery. But not so much crimes perpetrating direct bodily or property harm. Possible but not probable. At the risk of being insensitive to poor people and winos, they do commit more crimes. We all know the media loves to focus on the man bites dog stories.

it's just being deliberately obtuse to think there are no statistical predictors, depending on where you are

Right. In this case, violence against servants is more likely to be committed by the rich than the poor.

You might protest that this is because the poor have no servants, but this is the same reason why the poor are more likely to join gangs than the rich. In both cases, it's a matter of availability.

Talking about families in this case is ironic because actually it was a matter of families, her family smuggled the servants to them, and set up the arrangements. So actually, the family that she came from was relevant to some of the counts they were charged with. Again, crimes like smuggling servants and not paying them are more likely to be committed by rich families than by poor.

Tipu #107,

Are you serious, I have lived and worked in India for a long time and I have never seen a resume with Parents’ profession listed, please think before you type such exaggerations and if you have facts to support please post a resume with the Parents’ profession listed. Height yes, weight yes, passport number yes but never Parents’ profession 

Umber, I worked in Human Resources in India for many years. Yes, giving your parents' profession is common, as is asking the candidate about it in job interviews. I have seen both. You might want to subscribe to Monster India or Naukri & go through a few resumes.

To add to my previous comments, this was my experience from the mid-1990s to early-2000's. I have seen information about parents in some wedding cards too.

Tipu,

I think we will have to agree to disagree as I worked for 6 years in India before moving here and I didn't see any resumes with the parent's profession listed. Although you may be right about interviews as they are little more personal than interviews here.

Malathi,

'Worship' in the context of maids in India is a loaded concept. Naipaul has depicted it much better than I ever can hope to in his short story 'One out of Many' included in his booker-prize winner 'In a Free State'. I believe that other South Asian writers have also touched upon this issue, but I am not able to recall any more specific references right now (I need to check my shelf at home).

Of course, I didn't mean "worship" to connote reverence of the maid on the part of the employer, I was only using Jaisingh's terminology. A more accurate description would be that dependable maids are few and far between in India that my relatives, friends and parents (when they are in India) go above and beyond simply paying well; they coddle and offer gifts and lots of food to these women to keep them in their employ. This doesn't mean they necessarily like these maids, they simply need dependable service and will offer a lot for it.

With a lot of India moving out of or destroying older, larger homes and moving into apartments, condos and the like, and with washers, dryers and other modern appliances available for in the home, is the need for a maid as prevalent as before?

I'd be interested in any other book recommendations you dig up.

Tipu, the resumes you are talking of could be bollywood resumes! For example: Imran Khan: Son of XYZ Khan and Nephew of Aamir Khan or Isha Deoal: daughter of Dharmendra and Hema Malini and half sister of sunny and bobby deol

Maitri, washing machines and dishwashers are becoming quite common, but you still need someone to load them.

Hey all,

I am involved with Andolan, a membership based and led organization of South Asian low wage domestic workers in NYC. I am attaching a "letter to the editor"that we had written the day that the NYT article came out. Needless to say it wasn't printed. It was more for the purpose getting our views on the article and showing that Samirah and Enung have support.
-
apsara

To the Editor of The New York Times;

We, the members of Andolan, a NYC-based domestic workers organization, are disappointed with your recent coverage of the upcoming sentencing of Sabhnani’s for their exploitation of domestic workers. (Eric Konisberg "Couple's Downfall is Culminating in Sentencing in Long Island Slavery Case June 23rd) Mr. Konisberg provides a shockingly lop-sided portrait of the story, giving ample space to a romanticized account of the Sabhnani's family relationship and their rise to acquire the "American dream.” In contrast, the struggles and voices of Samirah and Enung, the domestic workers employed and abused by the Sabhnani's, remain largely glossed over.

The article sympathizes with the journey of the Sabhnani's from new immigrants to wealthy entrepreneurs, the life they left behind in India , the growth of their family business, their purchase of a house in Long Island , and their sentencing to Nassau Correctional facility, despite the crimes they committed and the suffering which occurred at their expense. These caricatures are embellished by generous quotes from the Sabhnani's daughter Pooja and their family friend Mr. Jothwani.

The lives of Samirah and Enung, in comparison, are justified, in the words of economist Dilip Ratha, as a “common template for the many workers who leave countries like Indonesia , the Philippines and Malaysia for wealthier nations so that they can send their earnings home to their families.” There is little depth to the fact that thousands of Samirahs and Enungs have also struggled to attain the “American dream”, yet are unheard because they are undocumented, have few resources, and are often isolated from any form of community or institutional support.

Given the disparity in resources between middle-class immigrants such as the Sabhani’s and domestic workers such as Samirah and Enung, their escape and survival is the more impressive story. So many domestic workers are silenced, because their employers are also immigrants, and their relationship becomes confused as members of the same family, versus an employer-employee relationship. The article reports no mention of the supporters of Samirah and Enung, including the many local community organizations, such as Andolan – Organizing South Asian Workers, who are advocating on their behalf, or the Housecleaners in Long Island or Domestic Workers United. In fact, all of these workers’ rights organizations have been pushing for legislation requiring minimum wage page and dignity for all workers.

We are concerned that not only were the voices of the two women silenced by the Sabhnani's, but the article offered no insight into the plight and activism of domestic workers. This is especially alarming considering this article is printed just days before the Sabhnani's sentencing for their heinous crimes.

Andolan - Organizing South Asian Workers is an organization founded by and for low-wage South Asian immigrant women workers to empower one another and to collectively organize against poor workplace conditions, gender discrimination, and xenophobia. Andolan's over 100 members are primarily domestic workers - babysitters, housekeepers, and cooks who are often abused due to their isolated work environments coupled with stigma, limited English proficiency, and irregular immigration status. Our ten years of organizing domestic workers in the South Asian community disproves Mr. Jothwani's testament- “There is no way on earth any Indian family in the United States could do what they were accused of. The [Indian] people I know here all feel this way. Anybody from India who has come here comes from a very good family.” In fact many upwardly-mobile, affluent, members of the Indian American community are complicit in abusing low-wage workers.

We hope that for the sake of journalistic integrity your next story on this case will offer more insight into the experiences of Samirah and Enung, and overall, the lives of domestic workers in New York . We encourage your response and feedback.

Sincerely,

Members of Andolan

Other variations:

If yo see a Punjabi and a Cobra, kill the snake first, leave the Cobra alone.

She looks evil and disturbed. Therefore, I don't understand why is everyone analyzing some stupid sentences uttered by her in her desperate attempt of defense of her actions. She said something. That's it. There is absolutely no need to analyze why she said it, and what she was thinking.

Apsara77: Maybe the NYT reads "In fact many upwardly-mobile, affluent, members of the Indian American community are complicit in abusing low-wage workers." and sees a group that's peddling hate instead of advocating the cause of low wage workers.

NYT generally avoids libelling an entire community. Is it Andolan's intent to pull a stunt to appear beleaguered or to effect change? Way to go and alienate people who would otherwise be sympathetic (e.g. me)

The Sabhnani’s are trolls, plain and simple. Just because they are rich does not give them a right to abuse. Once Mrs. Sabhnani goes to prison she'll regret her actions when someone whacks her upside her head and stick a shank in her ear. People need to do house work by themselves. Our lives aren't that busy that we can't clean, cook, mow the lawn and do laundry. For God's sake its not rocket science. Life isn't just about going to parties and showing off your wealth all the time.

I'm in Indonesia now and I gotta say I was surprised that this case received almost no media attention. I asked quite a few of my friends and none of them seemed to be aware. Sadly, I think the abuse of Indonesian maids in places like Kedah, Malaysia and the Gulf that it's become common news out here (not that people here don't care-it's definitely part of the reason Indonesians refer to their northern neighbor as "Malaysial"-I guess the closest translation would be something like damn Malaysia although sial could have a couple of meanings colloquially)

I knew Jotwani's daughter when I was an undergrad-apparently, he's the main guy who puts on those mega Bollywood shows in the tri-state area. Random note aside, I'd imagine he was worried of some sorta backlash against the Indian community or have them painted in a certain light. Doesn't make his comments right, but I think I get what he meant.

"If you are in the jungle and see a poisonous snake and an Indian, kill the Indian first" Malaysian and Indonesian saying.

Haha, I'm sitting here with an Indonesian friend and laughing at this-don't confuse Indonesia and Malaysia buddy...people here don't like that.

121 · louiecypher said

Apsara77: Maybe the NYT reads "In fact many upwardly-mobile, affluent, members of the Indian American community are complicit in abusing low-wage workers." and sees a group that's peddling hate instead of advocating the cause of low wage workers.
NYT generally avoids libelling an entire community. Is it Andolan's intent to pull a stunt to appear beleaguered or to effect change? Way to go and alienate people who would otherwise be sympathetic (e.g. me)

I really don't see how Andolan's statement counts as libelous. All they are saying is that, based on their experience, there is a non-negligible number of wealthy Indian Americans who abuse low wage workers. They are not saying that most Indian Americans do this, or that Indian Americans are more likely than other groups to do this.

At best (and I am stretching here), you can call the statement tone-deaf in that readers of the NYT might read "many affluent Indian Americans are complicit" as "affluent Indian Americans are likely to be complicit". Would prefacing this sentence with an obligatory bromide such as "while there are many stellar upstanding Indian American uncles who rhapsodize fondly about their maids, some even in Pune, and who are needed even in the face of the cruel rampant mechanization of washing machines that pervades laundries all over the world today..." have made you more sympathetic? Or should they have written their letter to a magazine of the broad circulation of India Globe, where these kinds of statements could be interpreted with the appropriate sympathy by people of the ilk of Jotwani?

Justice has been served in America. In India this kind of maid abuse and slavery is par for the course.

jaisingh wrote:

"a good maid in india is worshipped like a goddess."

"my maid of 5 years in India was of a different caste than mine and same goes for many of my friends/cousins households"

"washing machines and dishwashers are becoming quite common, but you still need someone to load them."

"when I go back to India on my annual visits and see my cousins who have 3-4 different maids in their house, I am pleasantly surprised! My cousin speaks to her maid more lovingly than she would speak to her hubby. The maid goes on vacations without telling my cousin, and there is no way my cousin can shout at her when she comes back......infact my sis made her a cup of tea and listened to her vacation stories! My friends maid's kids all get to go to good schools, camps all courtesy of my friend. "

Yeah right jai, India is a veritable paradise for maidservants......

It is such a hardship to load washers and dryers eh? I would laugh if I didn't know how cruelly maids are treated in India

I hope the Sabhnanis are assigned toilet duty: I see it is all about you as it generally tends to be with professional activists. I said sympathetic to Andolan's cause which is clearly not the same as the abused maid's cause or otherwise they would have worded the letter in a way that got the point across without impugning an entire race. Read my other comments before you jump to the conclusion that I am trying to sweep something under the carpet.

Who says Varsha Sabhnani is ugly? Only jealous americans, but in India her fair skin and sharp "aryan" features make her the ideal auntie's choice in the wedding market.

re: parents on resumes...I am an American raised desi and I have been asked what my parents do for a living upon meeting me. the people asking were American born and raised desis as well. obviously trying to place me in a category...disheartening in this country of all places. I have also found that desis in the u.s. hang out with similar castes. where is the progress? family background obviously still counts even in America.

82 · Ennis said

I've seen that, but honestly it was more in the old days, when people were attached to families for good. I've also seen the marketization of domestic service help conditions for servants, they can walk away when they want.
Sadly, however, I've seen more bad treatment than good (although more indifferent treatment than either

I think the propensity to illtreat maid servants/nannies/home keepers etc. directly stems from the culture in desh-land to have such people in their home permanently or employed instead of doing the work themselves. Even royal housewifes who enjoy the luxury of not going out to work seem to have servants in their home. I can understand if you very old or ill but what abt normal healthy people ? Morever this culture is present even in middle-class homes in India leave alone the rich/upper-middle class homes. Also in the same context there was this mistreatment of domestic workers in diplomatic enclaves in D.C. I think some of individualism injected to the Indian families will do a lot good for many of its ills.

83 · jaisingh said

Maid= necessity in India but luxury in america

I don't agree that maids are a necessity in Indian middle-class/upper-middle class homes if the husbands, father-in-laws, royal housewifes share the burden of the work in homes which are not as gigantic here in American suburbs.

131 · Bridget Jones said

I don't agree that maids are a necessity in Indian middle-class/upper-middle class homes if the husbands, father-in-laws, royal housewifes share the burden of the work in homes which are not as gigantic here in American suburbs.

People who talk about not needing maid etc in India absolutely miss the point how important it is as an employment especially for the women who opts for it. It empowers them not to depend on their drunk and abusive husbands. Are people for america going to pay for their unemployment when this kind of service is abolished ? Also, living in India and US, I can vouch for that household works are much more streamlined with partially processed foods (e.g. readily available coconut milk, canned and cooked beans etc), running water, thousands of machinery (which uses energy by the way) makes household work in US a breeze in US compared to India.

88 · Janeofalltrades said

The whole thing makes me squirm because of how the Sabnani's were touted as these rich rotten people. The vast majority of Mutton Town, Syosset, Dix Hills, Woodbury, West Hills desi community that is very very affluent worked their asses off to get their money. None of those families come from money so it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that the community has gotten shyt about their homes and wealth because of the Sabananis. Nothing was handed to them for free. It's just shitty that wealth was viewed as a bad thing because there were maids involved.

Clearly no one seems to care about this point in this forum. You have nailed the alternate desi mentality here : wealth = bad people

I think Jotwani Uncle is scared. Scared of being tainted by association through background and ethnicity with the criminals.

This may be over-defensiveness and paranoia. In fact I think it is.

But it may also be his inability to articulate himself properly. Would you deny understanding even just a tiny amount where that fear comes from? The truth is, it is sometimes the case that minority groups are held collectively guilty for crimes of individuals by wider society. Just to use very raw examples, all the brown skinned folk who received racist abuse in the aftermath of 9/11.

Jotwani Uncle is just incapable of dealing with the implied guilt he fears will arise from this, as much as his own failings as a man to process what has happened.

It's not nice to face prejudice and stereotyping and hostility for things you are innocent of. The flip side of basking in the glow of good, righteous achievment, is the implication that the darkness in the crimes of individuals of those nominally of your social group also reflects back on you as an individual. This is a strange and complex logic fraught with complexity, fear, low self-esteem, but also with a genuine prejudice as a back drop.

So even though I dislike what he said, there's a part of me that understands how it was that he could come to say it.

132 · zuni said

People who talk about not needing maid etc in India absolutely miss the point how important it is as an employment especially for the women who opts for it. It empowers them not to depend on their drunk and abusive husbands. Are people for america going to pay for their unemployment when this kind of service is abolished ? Also, living in India and US, I can vouch for that household works are much more streamlined with partially processed foods (e.g. readily available coconut milk, canned and cooked beans etc), running water, thousands of machinery (which uses energy by the way) makes household work in US a breeze in US compared to India.

The govt. or the indian families which started the so called job of "servants" didn't start it in the first place coz of some humanitarian purpose. So trying to make an argument that it provides employment is actually like makeing an excuse in hindsight. That particular labour has arisen only coz indian families don't want to do menial work themselves. Now if you are extremely rich, busy and jet set and advertise for housekeeper since you cannot manage the home then it is understable. The concept of urban indian middle class/upper middle class needing servants to maintain their homes is something I cannot understand.

135 · Bridget Jones said

The govt. or the indian families which started the so called job of "servants" didn't start it in the first place coz of some humanitarian purpose. So trying to make an argument that it provides employment is actually like makeing an excuse in hindsight. That particular labour has arisen only coz indian families don't want to do menial work themselves. Now if you are extremely rich, busy and jet set and advertise for housekeeper since you cannot manage the home then it is understable. The concept of urban indian middle class/upper middle class needing servants to maintain their homes is something I cannot understand.

There has been no Indian government scheme to ever start job of 'servants'. Such jobs existed in Europe as well and also exist in US in house of affluent people in the west (not just south asians); in fact there had been government sanctioned slaves in the past in the west if you have forgotten.

One has to keep the population of India in mind while saying high-funda stuff that such jobs are not required. What sort of jobs will one provide to a huge illiterate population ? Why are such large migration happening to the cities from the villages ? What do these women from the villages do in the cities-yes, a lot of them work as maids. Yes, it is definitely true that it would have been better to have alternative employment for these huge masses of people, but that is asking way too much from the government. But these people are getting better pay than before. Also, a lot of maids/servants belong to unions (in bengal I know) and wields a lot of power (which is a good thing in my opinion). I know a case where the woman of the house shouted at the maid or something; the maid not only left the job, but the woman had to confront protest from union members next day and of course couldn't manage to find any one to work as maid in her house. That's a great way to handle bad behavior from employers in India in my mind.

Also, I do not understand the argument that "royal housewives who enjoy the luxury of not going out to work seem to have servants in their home". Royal homes usually serves at least food for 30 people (more like 100 actually ) for every meal. It doesn't make sense that one woman will cook and clean for so many people without help. Also, the 'servants' of these homes get payment akin to middle class salary. BTW, I am wondering if you are waiting for the Queen Elzabeth to cook and clean soon or not ;)

Clearly no one seems to care about this point in this forum. You have nailed the alternate desi mentality here : wealth = bad people

I certainly didn't mean to make that association. And it's not clear how wealthy they will be once the back wages are paid. In this case, their wealth came in part from stealing the labor of others. That's why her husband was sentenced, because he had benefited from criminal activity.

137 · Ennis said

I certainly didn't mean to make that association. And it's not clear how wealthy they will be once the back wages are paid. In this case, their wealth came in part from stealing the labor of others. That's why her husband was sentenced, because he had benefited from criminal activity.

Ennis, I didn't mean that specifically about your post. I am talking about unwillingness to acknowledge this alternate mentality among desis. While you point out one sort of mentality, the other one also exists.

zuni wrote:

these people are getting better pay than before. Also, a lot of maids/servants belong to unions (in bengal I know) and wields a lot of power (which is a good thing in my opinion). I know a case where the woman of the house shouted at the maid or something; the maid not only left the job, but the woman had to confront protest from union members next day and of course couldn't manage to find any one to work as maid in her house.

You, jaisingh and a few others are trying to paint a rosy picture out of something that is shameful and indefensible. It is the the culture of virtual slavery and physical and sexual abuse of maids in desi culture that is the issue:

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=336732&sid=NAT&ssid=

"At the tender age of 13, Shika Bera is already aware that her childhood has been stripped from her forever.

The pig-tailed, pale-faced little girl holds no hope of playing with other children or even of going to school, resigned to spending her life scrubbing floors and washing dishes as a maid for affluent middle-class families.

Since she was eight years old, Shika has worked as a maid in several homes across Kolkata where she has not only been subjected to back-breaking housework, but also to sexual abuse at the hands of her employers.

"My father took me from our home in the village. He told me I must work here in the city because we need money," said Shika, her small fingers nervously tugging at the sleeves of her tunic.

"In one house where I worked, the man forced me to look at dirty films. He touched me in places I didn't like and made me touch him," she said.

Shika is one of millions of children in India given up by their families into virtual slavery as domestic workers.

Hidden within the confines of the four walls of urban homes across the country, these child workers are exploited by employers and made to do strenuous labour for little or no pay."

"Most are subjected to various forms of abuse, from unsafe working conditions and lack of food to being beaten, burnt or sexually abused," said Ray, who recently conducted a study on child workers in West Bengal.

The state is a notorious transit hub for child maids as it borders three of India's most backward states -- Bihar, Jharkhand and Orissa -- and also shares porous, poorly guarded frontiers with impoverished neighbours Nepal and Bangladesh.

"West Bengal remains a key transit point (for child labour). We have formed special teams who are coordinating with the border guards to plug holes along the border with Nepal and Bangladesh," said Raj Kanojia, the state's police inspector-general.

Traffickers and parents take advantage of the porous border to bring thousands of children -- mostly young girls from poor rural families -- into West Bengal every year before sending them to urban middle-class households across the country.

In the posh, leafy suburbs of the capital New Delhi -- where one million of the city's 14 million population are child workers -- young girls can be seen carrying heavy shopping bags, sweeping courtyards or hanging out clothes on balconies.

The children, many of whom are breadwinners for their families, are forced to work up to 15 hours a day to earn less than 500 rupees ($10) per month which is sent home.

Some employers pay nothing, believing that providing leftover food, old clothes and a space on the floor for the child to sleep is more than enough, say activists. "

" The biggest problem is combating a tradition where employing children who are poor or of lower castes is considered quite normal," said Kailash Satyarthi, a children's activist.

But 14-year-old Namita Das, a servant for a family of six in Kolkata, holds little hope her life will ever change.

"There are children the same age as me who live in the house where I work. I see them playing, going to school, having nice toys," said the pretty, dimpled girl.

"I want my life to be like that, but I don't think it will ever happen."

139 · Valmiki said

You, jaisingh and a few others are trying to paint a rosy picture out of something that is shameful and indefensible. It is the the culture of virtual slavery and physical and sexual abuse of maids in desi culture that is the issue:

Valmiki, I was not talking about child labor and definitely do not support child labor in any way, so don't confuse things. It is definitely a bad bad practice wherever kids are employed. I even pay for some less fortunate girl's education so that she is not pushed by her parents to be a maid etc. I was talking about adult married women who move to cities with husbands not having much options about employment, so please don't distort/confuse what I am talking about.

zuni@136,
your arguments don't address in any way why the indian middle class needs servants to manage their homes if the husbands, father-in-laws and "royal" housewives share the burden. By royal I didn't meant royal as in some maharajah family literally but housewives who don't go to work but yet need servants... and to clarify unless you are are in rural areas, I don't think there is any concept of joint families in urban India with 30 people or more. Just because there is demand for menial work doesn't mean you have to remain steeped in the mindset of having maid-servants/house keepers unless there is some real genuine need.

141 · Bridget Jones said

I don't think there is any concept of joint families in urban India with 30 people or more. Just because there is demand for menial work doesn't mean you have to remain steeped in the mindset of having maid-servants/house keepers unless there is some real genuine need.

There are still lot of joint families even in cities with 30 people or more.
Anyway, I have been arguing from the employment point of view of the maids (I am talking about adults and *not* children employed). I really wish there was alternate employment for them, but I wonder what that can be honestly. In that respect I do not think that having a maid hurts (unless the employer is abusive) as an emplyement. But I do think this employment should be abolished at the end, for which India needs more drives for education

zuni@142, even the system of maids doesn't involve abuse, unless there is some real genuine need (which probably includes cases of large joint families) I don't see why husbands, fully fit father-in-laws/mother-in-laws and "royal" housewifes cannot do the work in urban middle class homes. My point was about the mindset of having servants and I am in now way going to be dragged into the a debate about employment.

I don't see why husbands, fully fit father-in-laws/mother-in-laws and "royal" housewifes cannot do the work in urban middle class homes.

The answer is obvious: physical labor is demeaned in indian culture as something only low castes are supposed to do.

144 · Valmiki said

I don't see why husbands, fully fit father-in-laws/mother-in-laws and "royal" housewifes cannot do the work in urban middle class homes.

The answer is obvious: physical labor is demeaned in indian culture as something only low castes are supposed to do.

Males in Indian household in general do not tend to help in household activities, whatever caste they belong to. It is a matter of sexism rather than casteism. My general observation is that it is better (i.e. males are more proactive in household) in the South and East of India rather than in the North. My theory is it's because women have a better standing in the family in these regions (e.g. Kerala had matrilinieal society at some point). Anyway, I realize that I digress too much, so I bow out of this discussion.

" I don't see why husbands, fully fit father-in-laws/mother-in-laws and "royal" housewifes cannot do the work in urban middle class homes. My point was about the mindset of having servants and I am in now way going to be dragged into the a debate about employment."

You should go down to Texas and ask all the fat suburbanites why they need Mexicans to clean their houses and mow their lawns when they could do it themselves...

Actually, wait, let me save you the time. You'll get the following answers: No time, Can't do as good a job...at least that's the reason I send my laundry out instead of doing it myself. Oh wait, its because my particular caste strictures forbid the touch of detergent whereas all non-desis who get their laundry done are doing it for convenience.

Having servants is prevalent the world over for people who can afford to do it, you'll see it in the middle east, eastern europe, africa, latin america etc. Trying to paint it as this spoiled regressive Desi habit is complete BS.

I think the womens face in the pic says it all, she remind me of the vamp from the movie 101 Dalmations!

147 · Prashant on July 5, 2008

I think the womens face in the pic says it all, she remind me of the vamp from the movie 101 Dalmations!

The defense argument is she lost a lot of weight,100 or so pounds, so the weird behavior with maids. May be that explains the wrinkles too.

148 · Xyzz said

The defense argument is she lost a lot of weight,100 or so pounds, so the weird behavior with maids. May be that explains the wrinkles too.

anti-oprah propoganda

The answer is obvious: physical labor is demeaned in indian culture as something only low castes are supposed to do.

Males in Indian household in general do not tend to help in household activities, whatever caste they belong to. It is a matter of sexism rather than casteism. My general observation is that it is better (i.e. males are more proactive in household) in the South and East of India rather than in the North. My theory is it's because women have a better standing in the family in these regions (e.g. Kerala had matrilinieal society at some point). Anyway, I realize that I digress too much, so I bow out of this discussion.

Agreed. But I think it's a combo of both sexism and casteism.

I hope the Sabhnanis are assigned toilet duty: I see it is all about you as it generally tends to be with professional activists.

And there the penny drops. Ignore the fact that I am not a "professional activist". It is clear that you are just searching for a reason to rail against the organization when there was little objectionable about their letter.

without impugning an entire race

You got to "entire race" from "many Indian Americans"? That is one small statement by Andolan, one giant leap for louiecypher. Talk about prickliness.

The defense argument is she lost a lot of weight,100 or so pounds, so the weird behavior with maids

Slim Fast rage ?

You got to "entire race" from "many Indian Americans"? That is one small statement by Andolan, one giant leap for louiecypher. Talk about prickliness.

Sorry for the misunderstanding Andolan. I see that many is defined as "amounting to a large but indefinite number". This provides at least some of us the opportunity to escape being painted as maid molesters/modern day slavers/class enemies. If the public at large confuses many with most you can lay that on the public school system/lead paint. The NYT's refusal to print your letter is testimony to the vice like grip Hindoos have on the media

The headline, "Cruella" rhymes with....nutella (the chocolate cream you put on bread).

Its been forever since I had nutella...I'm going to buy some nutella.

who wants it....who licks it...who craves it...nutella...cant wait...

Valmiki said

You, jaisingh and a few others are trying to paint a rosy picture out of something that is shameful and indefensible. It is the the culture of virtual slavery and physical and sexual abuse of maids in desi culture that is the issue:

I am not trying to paint a rosy picture. Just the true picture based on my observations. Again, don't distort it to mean I support child labor. Child labor is illegal in India and if you read my comments correctly I said in my very first comment that my friends maid's kids all get to go to good schools, camps courtesy of my friend.
And the maid situation is nothing peculiar to India. Even in the US, almost all middleclass families I know, including myself, have a house cleaning service, a gardener etc......we have time on the weekends to clean our homes but I like to spend it with my kids rather than cleaning my house. So you stop painting the wrong picture!!!

153 · louiecypher said

You got to "entire race" from "many Indian Americans"? That is one small statement by Andolan, one giant leap for louiecypher. Talk about prickliness.

Sorry for the misunderstanding Andolan. I see that many is defined as "amounting to a large but indefinite number". This provides at least some of us the opportunity to escape being painted as maid molesters/modern day slavers/class enemies. If the public at large confuses many with most you can lay that on the public school system/lead paint. The NYT's refusal to print your letter is testimony to the vice like grip Hindoos have on the media

Louiecypher,

Where do you get off saying that "Hindoos" control the media, huh? Do you have facts to prove this? Personally I'm not too thrilled by your use of this word as a pejorative. Show some kahunaas and identify your religious background if you don't mind.

louiecypher:

"Hindoo" is archaic and offensive. Please stop.

SM Intern/Akshay: If you read my other posts, you will see that I am making fun of the people who see a right wing Hindu conspiracy in everything. But since this has offended Akshay and diminished his ability to find context I will desist

156 · Akshay said

153 · louiecypher said

You got to "entire race" from "many Indian Americans"? That is one small statement by Andolan, one giant leap for louiecypher. Talk about prickliness.

Sorry for the misunderstanding Andolan. I see that many is defined as "amounting to a large but indefinite number". This provides at least some of us the opportunity to escape being painted as maid molesters/modern day slavers/class enemies. If the public at large confuses many with most you can lay that on the public school system/lead paint. The NYT's refusal to print your letter is testimony to the vice like grip Hindoos have on the media

Louiecypher,

Where do you get off saying that "Hindoos" control the media, huh? Do you have facts to prove this? Personally I'm not too thrilled by your use of this word as a pejorative. Show some kahunaas and identify your religious background if you don't mind.

Akshay,

You go boy, at least you've got some moxy. Personally I don't care for that term either. After reading all of the comments and links I saw instances where the abusers were Korean (persumably Christian), a Kuwati (persumably Muslim), ad Nauseaum. The Sabhnanis are Hindus but that is not what makes them guilty, its their actions and I hope they get punished and toilet duty as well.

Where do you get off saying that "Hindoos" control the media, huh?

I think the intent was to say "Joos" instead.

159 · Bhavini said

Akshay,

You go boy, at least you've got some moxy.

As much as I found louiecypher to not be in compliance with my views, he seems to have fallen into a trap that I find myself in sometimes - some people just don't get satire or sarcasm...sarcasm even more so when it is read off a screen.

And Akshay I'm sure you meant cohones, coz Kahuna is Hawaiian for "Priest/Sorcerer" and not Spanish for "balls".

sriahomala,

"Having servants is prevalent the world over for people who can afford to do it, you'll see it in the middle east, eastern europe, africa, latin america etc. Trying to paint it as this spoiled regressive Desi habit is complete BS."

Thank you for the point you made, particularly this part that I re-posted. Yes, abuse of another human being is reprehensible, and it should be considered serious whether that abused is a maid or a wealthy individual.

However, I am so incredibly tired of reading these constant comments that basically cast the habit of employing servants in India as the lowers thing a human being could possibly do. If a person is provided employment, given fair treatment and pay, in addition to other benefits, and well-to-do family can afford the services, why is so horrible?

Get self-righteous and basically saying "Shame on Indians who use servants when they could do the work themselves" IS, as you said, such BS. Americans here use such services providers here all the time, everything from lawn care to laundry to maids and even childcare nannies. Yes, that never seems to be as big of a deal. Time and again, I'm always unpleasantly surprised by how quick Indians are to "stand up to" and protest against things done by other Indians, but when non-Indians (especially Americans) do the same things, barely a squeek comes out.....

but when non-Indians (especially Americans) do the same things, barely a squeek comes out.....

cuz white people are nicer, and they buy women roses and stuff on valentines day.

a word on the moderating... what happened to looking at a commenter's history? It's obvious louiecypher was being sarcastic. And also, I've definitely seen the bloggers here use 'Hindoo' or even 'Hindoooooo' (I could go find a link, but I don't think you'd like that very much) jokingly but kind of offensively, given that they weren't Hindu themselves and given that the main topic of the discussion was actually religion. So SM Intern, please stop with the false self-righteousness.

Enough on my use of that term. The SM Interns have a tough unpaid job and have to exercise judgement to stop pointless digressions/devolution into flame wars. There are readers with varying levels of reading comprehension so use of sarcasm does entail certain risks. Let's drop this....please

HMF,

"cuz white people are nicer, and they buy women roses and stuff on valentines day."

Ha ha...good one.

And this attitude doesn't just limit it self to topics like servant employment. I'm an Indian-born/U.S.-raised person, and I'm so sick of seeing this kind of stuff happening not just by Aunties & Uncles, but increasingly by people in the younger generation, who are often American born or raised themselves. My husband, who moved here from India recently, has even pointed out to me a few times that Indians here are so quick to look down on India and its inhabitants when there's a lot of unpleasant, sickening, and shameful stuff going on here on many of the same topics. And when that happens, it saddens me because I think "gee, do we really want to blend in so badly here that those are the actions & thoughts it'll take to do so?"

When bad things happen anywhere, people should speak out against them. But taking a practice used around the world by multiple ethnic groups and then saying "well, India practices and shame on them and their people" is such a cowardly move, especially when there are numerous examples of workers being treated & paid fairly for their services.

164 · wow said

a word on the moderating... what happened to looking at a commenter's history? It's obvious louiecypher was being sarcastic. And also, I've definitely seen the bloggers here use 'Hindoo' or even 'Hindoooooo' (I could go find a link, but I don't think you'd like that very much) jokingly but kind of offensively, given that they weren't Hindu themselves and given that the main topic of the discussion was actually religion. So SM Intern, please stop with the false self-righteousness.

Hey Wow,

STFU. Speaking of sarcasm why don't you go on Sikhnet.com or some other anit-hindu site where they imply that every "Hindoo" is responsible for their anguish. Yeah I laugh too at the word since Hindu isn't even mentioned in the Vedas. The correct term would be Santana Dharma or something along those lines. But getting back to the topic at hand, she got 11 years, serves her well. Husband got 40 months, not too shabby. Wish it was longer, oh well.

How about this story: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/06/18/sparkle_rai_contract_killing.html. Chaman Rai got a life sentence for something even worse. Talk about a crazy Injun.

167 · Josthna said

Hey Wow,

STFU. Speaking of sarcasm why don't you go on Sikhnet.com or some other anit-hindu site where they imply that every "Hindoo" is responsible for their anguish.

Talk about a crazy Injun.

In·jun /ˈɪndʒən/ –noun Often Offensive.
an American Indian.
[Origin: 1805–15; var. of Indian; cf. Cajun]

Well, I admit that if I could afford it here, I would employ domestic help.

In India I have employed domestic help and treated them respectfully.

I think the problem we women see is that in India, besides the hired domestic help, the men of the family expect the women of the family to be the ones to be of service to them, unpaid.

Sure we have domestic help in India but we are the ones overseeing it, doing the cooking after the veggies have been chopped and the roti dough prepared. We are the ones expected to serve the family dinner and to bring tall, cool stainless steel glasses of lassis to our husbands after work on summer days, or that warm cuppa on a winters eve. Saasural is usually apalled if anything other than that happens. God forbid if beta serves dinner, chai, beer, lassi, whatever to bahu.

So in short, yeah, although hire domestic help takes place world over for those who can afford, the expectation of getting served Maharaja style by not only hired domestic workers but by unpaid wives and other female members of the family just because one is male.... well, I don't know if that takes place all over the world, but would be interested to find out.

Nokar is Pardesi Gori.

As a single working widow in India, I could not work for money without my two cheating, often late, often sulky 'helpers'. (PC Americanism?) and no, I will not feed my kids (or the maid/man) ready made cornflake type packaged food: expensive junk. So because i need them, i shower them with money, any amount of paid holidays, any usage of anything in the house, any driving the car wherever the driver chooses. Yes, food is given away by them and i occasionally lose clothes, etc. and so do Americans who employ ayahs, sorry, helpers here.

Every single servant/helper I know has been totally looked after by their employers. Often the maids' children have been encouraged to move in with them, esp during holidays and school paid for, etc. But u ABCDs would not want to know anything good about India. I am surprised JOAT even mentioned that Indian wealth does not = bad! It must be worrying to be brown, and hate yourselves and your parents. esp as the world thinks your parents are so much better, more enterprising and adventurous than you suburban lot with nothing to say except carp about your wicked, thoroughly irresponsible community and remain maladjusted. But then it takes cleverness or even The Love Guru's advice to not negotiate against yourself. I have yet to be with ABCDs and hear one say anything pleasant about their parents or the Indian community. With such intelligent parents, one can only blame it on junk food! or maybe American high schools where whites are taught to practice racism but to be quiet about their actions. Don't see many white men marrying black girls!

Also, i don't think there is anything particularly good or bad in doing your housework; if i can pay someone to do something, why not? none here seems to object to practically illiterate babysitters while mom and daddy work.

But u ABCDs would not want to know anything good about India.

I have yet to be with ABCDs and hear one say anything pleasant about their parents or the Indian community.

Woah...woah...stop. Next you'll start talking about outsourcing and how American/British/Canadian Indians aka ABCDs/BBCDs/CBCDs are not 'Indians'...amirite or amirite....

Just stop....

Don't see many white men marrying black girls!

puhleez, babygirl, go to any area of amreeka where there are a tons of 'sistahs' and you will see 'whitey' bob smith with 'ghettofied sistah' lakeshya johnson. you been watching too many hollywood movies.

where whites are taught to practice racism but to be quiet about their actions.

did you hear this from your H1B friends -- sonal, rajesh? babygirl, sonal and rajesh have never gone through high school or undergrad college in amreeka...they dont know, yo.

in conclusion, babygirl, get off the net and pick up a book/newspaper.

just stop....

Sorry do not really know any H1 visa holders. Went to college in the US and teach there regularly. Do not follow all yr classifications! I see more black men marrying white girls.

Most whites I know never say anything non PC, they simply do it.

Went to college in the US and teach there regularly

Babygirl, I'm 22 and have lived/studied in US, Europe and India. I have a more global perspective than you or any "educated" Indian in India may have...

Most whites I know never say anything non PC, they simply do it.

American whites...European whites...Canadian whites....which white group are you talking about?!

I see more black men marrying white girls.

Interracial dating/marriages happens in the states, canada, europe, the west. Black men marrying white girls, along with white men marrying asian women are the prolly the two most common interracial relationships depicted in the american media.

Barack Obama is the most famous black man in Amreeka and he's married to a black woman aka 'ghettofied sistah' Michelle Obama.

You're dumb. Stop acting like you have a global perspective

You're dumb. Stop acting like you have a global perspective

I feel bad about this comment. Sorry Working Indian woman. Have a nice day.

Bye.

Doesn't Bin Laden too come from a prestigious and wealthy family? He's has a civil engineering degree too, for the records..... Is it either necessary or sufficient for a person to come from a good, wealthy family or be educated to desist from behaving atrociously.......

Doesn't Bin Laden too come from a prestigious and wealthy family? He has a civil engineering degree too, for the records..... Is it either necessary or sufficient for a person to come from a good, wealthy family or be educated to desist from behaving atrociously.......

TheBrownChamp,

My oh my....yes, you've really proved how much global perspective you really have by telling someone actually making valid points to shut up. And what makes you think that, to quote you, "...have lived/studied in US, Europe and India. I have a more global perspective than you or any "educated" Indian in India may have..."???

That right there is the problem with many Indians born/raised/living a long time, in the U.S. We seem to think that nobody could possibly be more alert & aware of the global situation than us, no matter what the topic of discussion may be. Is it so damn hard to actually think that others in the world might be just as aware or even more perceptive than us about things?

My oh my....yes, you've really proved how much global perspective you really have by telling someone actually making valid points to shut up.

Not only that but the 22 year old punk had the gall to call a significantly older woman 'babygirl' over and over as if that rude condescension helped his point in anyway.

132 · zuni said

It empowers them not to depend on their drunk and abusive husbands.

stop caricaturing every maid and her family. not every maid has a drunken, abusive husband like in bad TV soaps and movies. meanwhile, note there are other ways women could be empowered than being housemaids. i agree that domestic service is a valuable economic opportunity for many people (eg in many countries it is not considered demeaning for students and those wanting part-time flexible gigs to perform housework. the same is not true of india -- domestic work is associated with servility and social inferiority). it is, however, a sad thing that often the only vocational choice available to poor women in india have is to perform low-paid work in the unorganized sector.

People who talk about not needing maid etc in India absolutely miss the point how important it is as an employment especially for the women who opts for it. It empowers them not to depend on their drunk and abusive husbands.

I am glad we have our own homegrown civilizing movement for the noble savages in our midst, now that British imperialism no longer does it for us.

Ennis,

I take it you grow up in America. I have been here presumably much less than you then.

In my time here, I have watched numerous times in TV where some serial killer or shooter or child rapist is caught with proof other than the victims word, and the neighbours and friends go 'he was such a kind soul, always good with the kids/volunteering for the community/never bothered anyone etc etc.'

That is how real americans (not immigrants from India ) talk when they hear that people whom they know got caught in something like this.

In India, if you do not know, most crimes are committed with a motive, usually money. Otherwise it is passion or anger or lust. In india there's also the concept of a good reputation, ties to the society, etc, all similar to the old British concept of gentleman with some standing in the society. That sort of acts in your favour if you are accused of anything. However, these days that too is not of much help, given the number of sex racket cases happening over there.

174 · TheBrownChamp said

Went to college in the US and teach there regularly

Babygirl, I'm 22 and have lived/studied in US, Europe and India. I have a more global perspective than you or any "educated" Indian in India may have...

Dont know re my global persp: i am 54, went to undergrad in the US during the summer of love, the gay movement, anti war declarations etc. so yes, I am limited to whatever experiences i had. lived in Moscow, Cairo etc. but no, I cannot know everything even remotely. agreed.

Most whites I know never say anything non PC, they simply do it.

American whites...European whites...Canadian whites....which white group are you talking about?!
N Amer white folk, fellow profs, students, lovers, i have known over the last approx 40 yrs. A bit like US foreign policy! Say the right thing but do what is racist or selfish.

I see more black men marrying white girls.

Interracial dating/marriages happens in the states, canada, europe, the west. Black men marrying white girls, along with white men marrying asian women are the prolly the two most common interracial relationships depicted in the american media.

I feel black men marry white girls. the other way is less common. In Kenya, many white men have black wives, here there seems to be a racial taboo or a refusal to be associated with the slave background.

Barack Obama is the most famous black man in Amreeka and he's married to a black woman aka 'ghettofied sistah' Michelle Obama.

Did not really understand the context. But then I am over half a century old and Indian besides. This possibly disqualifies me to communicate to a lot of folk here who hate their brown coloring, their parents and their parents' country of origin.

You're dumb. Stop acting like you have a global perspective

May be. I just wonder why so many of you, with good knowledge and good info seem bent on discussing that which can be interpreted as bad about India, Indians and Hindus in particular. Jews do not do that, but then they are known for their intelligence and in helping their community first.