The fact that you would even ask such a question simply proves that you are trying to impose your culturally hegemonic chromatically normative colonialist pseudo-construction on the pigeonholed fractions of our multicultural post-ethnic society by marginalizing the otherness of those would deconstruct the socially dominant paradigm by perpetrating epistemic violence on their choice of signifier.

Speedy

Holly shit! I have no idea what is going on.

You misspelled my handle, saley.

Typo - honest! I know how to spell your "name"

A few things:
1. Perhaps they were trying to be inclusive when they were planning the conference - maybe they wanted someone like you to attend. Would you have attended if they called it "Blogging While Black"? From your post, it's very clear that you wouldn't.
2. Perhaps they were trying to be inclusive and for whatever reason it didn't work out. Sorta like when we call something "South Asian" and it only includes Indians. Happens pretty often, doesn't it?
3. I personally would embrace a label that would include all PoC, and not one that would selectively exclude black people - which is what it seems you want from your post.
That's all.

embrace a label that would include all PoC

I'm for truth in labeling.

not one that would selectively exclude black people - which is what it seems you want from your post.

Where did you get that idea?

Perhaps they were trying to be inclusive when they were planning the conference - maybe they wanted someone like you to attend.

Then perhaps they should have included panelists who would discuss a much wider range of issues than the ones they selected. I'm not uninterested because the panelists are black (some of my favorite panelists are black ;)), I'm uninterested because the topics are narrow.

Perhaps they were trying to be inclusive and for whatever reason it didn't work out. Sorta like when we call something "South Asian" and it only includes Indians. Happens pretty often, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. But with the number of desi, arab and latino voices out there, if they didn't manage to include a single one, they couldn't have been trying very hard.

4 · Ennis said

Typo - honest! I know how to spell your "name"

Thanks :) You're the best.

What puzzles me is why the promoters of the conference aren't being honest about what they're doing.

There are some very snarky responses I can think of to this statement that apply to this blog as well as to the one I write for...

I saw the website a few months ago and was very excited about it. The only thing that prevented me from going was the prohibitive cost.

What puts me off most about your post, Ennis, is that you've made this public statement without having made any apparent effort to e-mail the organizers (can't be that hard, can it?) to figure out what their intent was.

I found your last sentence to be obnoxious. Who owns Brown?

Smart African American men?

When? Where? I am sooooooo there!

Are we so cool now that even black folks want to be brown?

Yep that's probably it. Or it could be, the black bloggers knew your parents would'nt allow you to hang out with those people anyway,&wanted to spare embarrassment all around. Best bet: they are old school and still subsuming brown/wheat/Scythian etc under Black.

Tangential but germane...recently here on SM- I made the comment that I had SM envy- after another commenter pointed to a "corporate" blog for African Americans. Envy because SM is more organic w/o all the logo's obvious commercialism etc. Since then- I've discovered a counterpart of SM:
Jack and Jill Politics I found this site- by reading a somewhat mainstream (umm for lack of a better term:"white") blog eg: Daily Kos. Another great site TheBlackSnob** Since AfAm's can't talk about immigration cohorts, H1 Visa's etc- "snob" will have to do. I got to that from an article at Huffington Post.

Point being I can look at and read content from different perspectives - Blogrolls at JackAndJill and BlackSnob etc link back to "mainstream" AND other' communites - there is nothing like that on Sepia Mutiny. You do link to mainstream blogs. Shout out to Coach Diesel- but outside of her- it seems the only other "color" SM links to is the paisley sort of Brown. Maybe you have to reach out to other groups /electronically unless you reject the idea of being a hyphenated American (joke- maybe)Not that this blog doesn't feel welcoming in the first place. Of course isn't obligated to do that, but sometimes gestures are important.

Lastly- if it makes you feel better- none of the sites listed on the conference are any that I'd heard of- though I'm admittedly I'm just finding different communities online, but doubt they are ones invited to cover conventions In St Paul or Denver. (e.g. no clout)

I mean Sepia Mutiny,Of course isn't obligated to do that, but

for clarity - nobody really wants to be a hyphenated American but when statics for negatives etc are quoted- and of course they are- they are never just Americans, so to forestall any flag waving comments- it could be that people who hyphenate are just saying they can take the rough with the smooth ;-)

Yep that's probably it. Or it could be, the black bloggers knew your parents would'nt allow you to hang out with those people anyway,&wanted to spare embarrassment all around.

ouch.

well first, one can't really assume all these folks are AA. we live in a society where asians and blacks have Jewish names (as an example of how we can't label people in this mixed society). second, person of color has historically referred to the AA community. furthermore, the brown moniker is evoked by many groups, not just AA or south Asians.

it is just a term. the real issue is that minorities in this country seem to operate in factions, not as a common community. perhaps the best move would be to offer a hand to work together vs try to claim ownership on a term.

8 · ptr_vivek said

I found your last sentence to be obnoxious. Who owns Brown?

Is your question allowed in the National Conversation on Race by Ennis' Dear Leader Obama? 'Cuz Wright sure was escorted out of the room when he tried to engage in it.

What puts me off most about your post, Ennis, is that you've made this public statement without having made any apparent effort to e-mail the organizers (can't be that hard, can it?) to figure out what their intent was.

Why bother mailing when it is much easier to engage in sanctimonious polemics?

To be fair I didnt really understand the point of this blog post. Since when have we determined who and who cant be brown?

the brown moniker is evoked by many groups, not just AA or south Asians.

Post 9-11, doesn't _______ while brown have a specific meaning to do with fear of presumed Arabs / Muslims and national security theater? If I write about flying while brown, people know what that's about in the same way that they understand what driving while black means.

well first, one can't really assume all these folks are AA.

Oh ye of little faith. You think I didn't do the research? Check out the invited panelists yourself, almost all of them have photographs posted on the web.

Im sorry i meant to write since when have we determined who can and who cant be brown

16 · Ennis said

Oh ye of little faith. You think I didn't do the research? Check out the invited panelists yourself, almost all of them have photographs posted on the web.

Ennis,

i really weight that variable less then if you had emailed the organizers to ask them about their outreach/search criteria. Have you? If so, was there any response? the topics seemed interesting and of utility to any blogger, so it certainly does matter.

I've gotten the same, quite fair, question a few times:

I found your last sentence to be obnoxious. Who owns Brown? To be fair I didnt really understand the point of this blog post. Since when have we determined who and who cant be brown? the brown moniker is evoked by many groups, not just AA or south Asians.

I conceded in the post that many African-Americans have similar skin-tones to me, so calling themselves brown is literally accurate. However, post-9/11 the phrase "_____ while brown" has a fairly specific meaning to do with the fear of presumed Arabs/Muslims, national-security, and terrorism . The phrase is a riff on the phrase ____ while black, most often driving while black.

the black bloggers knew your parents would'nt allow you to hang out with those people anyway,

if it makes you feel better- none of the sites listed on the conference are any that I'd heard of-

What puts me off most about your post, Ennis, is that you've made this public statement without having made any apparent effort to e-mail the organizers (can't be that hard, can it?) to figure out what their intent was.

I tried to keep the post fairly neutral for that reason. If the organizers are blog savvy, they'll see a trackback and they'll explain what they were thinking. That's how most inter-blog conversations are conducted. Sending an email to somebody I didn't know seemed far more confrontational, like making a phone call or dropping by in person. Blog chatting happens between blogs.

19 · Ennis said

Sending an email to somebody I didn't know seemed far more confrontational

I'm no journalist, but i think that directing questions to the subject of the story about material facts likely unknown to the journalist, is a 'best practices' guideline for the profession--not blogging. (that being said, I'm highly interested in how exactly they went about this. The Black Student Association at my alma mater made no bones about the fact that most of the people who came to the Multicultural Student Union meetings weren't exactly their target members)

Why bother mailing when it is much easier to engage in sanctimonious polemics?

Do you really see my commentary on this topic as sanctimonious? I tried to keep the tone neutral, not self-righteous. Trust me, when I'm in a high dudgeon about an issue, I'll let fly. Here I was just puzzled.

I'm no journalist, but i think that directing questions to the subject of the story about material facts likely unknown to the journalist, is a 'best practices' guideline for the profession--not blogging.

The norm is derived from the fact that only one party has control of the press, and so you want to give a chance to the other party to speak their mind.

In blogging, where both sides have blogs (as is true here), the norm is one of conversation by trackback. This is more like a conversation between two different writers of opinion columns, where they don't call each other before writing, but instead expect a response in kind.

Again, I tried to be open and questioning so that a dialogue could develop if the other party is interested in one.

Many people who use the term "brown" include Lebanese & Persians and others who would be classified as white if they were wearing abercrombie & humming Vampire Weekend instead of beards/burkas/ill fitting suits & ululating. That pretty much makes the term "brown" meaningless and up for grabs. Bhangra & dappankoothu have a way to go before we are cool enough for African-Americans to co-opt our art forms

south asian folk aren't the only people who refer to themselves as brown. black folk do too, from time to time. yes, it is a literal rejection of an inaccurate color-based label, and also a rejection of the other inaccuracies associated with it. brown can be used to redefine african-american identity.

you were asked if you were going to participate but are dismayed that other brown minorities aren't currently included. why not step up to the plate instead of away from it, since you know about the conference?

you assume sepia mutiny has been overlooked, but possibly the b-w-b conference doesn't know any more about your blog than you know about the black blogosphere.

if Fuerza Dulce doesn't see desi participation as a problem, why are you reluctant to put your toe in?

i don't know. you may see brown as a universal signifier of non-african or non-black people, but not everybody thinks that way.

I can see being intimidated. It's like going to a family reunion, even though you weren't invited, because the host has your last name. But you could still show up or "crash", and claim (very legitimately), that you were somebody's cousin.

much blog luv

you assume sepia mutiny has been overlooked, but possibly the b-w-b conference doesn't know any more about your blog than you know about the black blogosphere.

Oh, I never expected SM be invited. I did however think that there would be at least one blogger who was desi / arab / latino, or heck, even one asian-american blogger in the list.

I mean, if I was to put together a bunch of desi bloggers and call it a conference “for, by and about bloggers of color” I'd expect eyebrows to be raised by black and yellow bloggers and how presumptuous I was being in claiming that my corner of POC somehow represented all POC bloggers out there.

south asian folk aren't the only people who refer to themselves as brown. black folk do too, from time to time.

Do they use the term "____ing while brown" to talk about their interactions with law enforcement? I thought the term had a pretty well defined and narrow meaning.

i don't know. you may see brown as a universal signifier of non-african or non-black people, but not everybody thinks that way.

I never claimed it was that broad. I don't think of whites as browns, nor east-asians. Nor am I trying to exclude Africans, I've written a number of posts about desis from Africa who are African browns.

south asian folk aren't the only people who refer to themselves as brown. black folk do too, from time to time. yes, it is a literal rejection of an inaccurate color-based label, and also a rejection of the other inaccuracies associated with it. brown can be used to redefine african-american identity.

You're right, I hadn't realized that there were overlapping uses of the term in this way. None of my black friends calls themselves brown, so it was something I really hadn't considered before this.

It is a bit confusing though. If African-Americans get to be both black and brown, and yellow and red are taken, what color is left to refer to the over 1 billion SouthAsians in the world? Hmmm ... maybe we can all be "Wheatish" instead.

btw @ dilletante

speaking of clout..., Pam’s House Blend, and What About our Daughters all have received credentials to cover the DNC in denver. they got credentials by asking the dnc not to exclude black bloggers.

going to any of these sites should give you a great blogroll to browse if you're looking for black bloggers.

maybe we can all be "Wheatish" instead.

I am more "pumpernicklish". This will exclude us dravido-lemurians

i meant to include jack and jill politics in the credentialed crew too,

firedoglake, is going to B-w-B and I don't think they're a black blog. But that's just one.

also, I don't mind the south asian use of brown, but from my perspective, it's because i like the expansion of the word. what's wrong with being brown if it includes south asian as well as african-american people? brown doesn't mean african-american any more than it means south asian. but it does make me think you might be interested in working to end oppression of brown folk in general. it feels like a solidarity move.

25 · Ennis said

maybe we can all be "Wheatish" instead.

That's what I call a wry comment.

That's what I call a wry comment.

Perhaps a rye comment.

30 · Ennis said

Perhaps a rye comment.

Subtlety gone awry!

The most obvious reason to me is that South Asians don't even register on the organizers' radar, i.e. they wouldn't have even thought that other people may think 'South Asian' when they hear 'brown' instead of thinking 'black.' Though it is true that often things are given the 'people of color' label but actually only includes black people, not even Latinos. It's an iffy label.

UPS

Why not just call themselves Blogging While Black? Are we so cool now that even black folks want to be brown?

If anything its desis (including you obviously) who seem to think its cool to be "brown" like an arab or latino though neither arabs nor latinos want to be associated with desis. Clearly there is a pecking order among those who use the word brown and desis rank at the bottom. As another poster correctly pointed out: who owns the word brown? "Black" americans such as Obama and Condoleeza Rice and numerous others are a lighter shade of brown than the majority of indian-americans, who in turn are not as dark/black as the majority of indians in India.

So I guess brown encompasses Desis, Middle Easterners, and Latinos if not Black folk as well? Why don't we just say people of color! I also don't see what we all have in common. Is it racism? There's plenty of white victims of racism so where does that leave us?

If anything its desis (including you obviously) who seem to think its cool to be "brown" like an arab or latino though neither arabs nor latinos want to be associated with desis

Huh? What did I do now?

I'm absolutely loving sitting here on the sideline watching the multicultis bash other multicultis for not being inclusive.

Since when has the interwebs operated differently for blogs that cater to different demographics? Looking at most of the B-w-B workshop topics, most - not all - are issues facing all blogs, irrespective of racial makeup.

I AGREE WITH YOU Ennis!! i mean sure its not perfectly accurate to call black ppl "black", but keeping it simple is BEST. i mean imagine how crazy it would get if we were forced to call caucasian ppl: peachy ppl, or rosy ppl, or ivory ppl? cuz they're not really "WHITE" either. And what about the caucasians who are dark (italians) should we call THEM browns too?, or african americans who are light ( ie "matthew perry" from harold and kumar 2)? white, black, yellow, brown, red

ACTUALLY I GOT A BETTER IDEA: forget the colors ------>

caucasian, east asian, desi, latino, native american, persians, semetics (although this is often mistaken for jews bcuz of hitler, it actuallly referes to the race of ppl that are middle easterners.)

i don't know about "black" ppl though, because "African American" would not work well with all "black" ppl, and negro . . . . .well . . . sounds kind of RUDE, and not to mention it also means black.

I'm absolutely loving sitting here on the sideline watching the multicultis bash other multicultis for not being inclusive.

Ummm ... no. I'm wondering why one group calls itself inclusive when it is not. Quite another thing entirely.

if Fuerza Dulce doesn't see desi participation as a problem, why are you reluctant to put your toe in?

You're making a couple of assumptions (at least) here without any basis. You're assuming that I think desis should or should not do something here - none of which I've said. You're also assuming that Ennis isn't putting his "toe in" and you're assuming that he isn't attending based on something having to do with color.

When I asked Ennis if he was attending, it was because I saw the name of the conference "Blogging While Brown" I didn't assume anything about it. I went on what the site itself said. "Blogging While Brown is the first international conference for bloggers of color." So.... we're of a color... so I thought there might be some desi folks repping at the conference, esp from such a major blog (at least in my eyes) as SM. Ennis is someone I know that's "in the know" so I thought he may have heard of it. Which is why I asked. If you read the website further, esp. their workshops section, it seems that it's a conference for people starting out in the blogging world who want to make an impact as people of color. I wasn't bothered, but I *was* confused, similar to Ennis, as to why the conference is being marketed as being for "brown" folks or "people of color" and it seems to be more for African-Americans. It's fine if it's a conf. just for African-Americans, but if I see "people of color" I'm going to assume it's for me as well.

So it's confusing. And Ennis was confused too. So he questioned how those running the conference chose to label themselves. That's it. Can't a man on a blog ask a question? To his own people? Come on :)

If you read the website further, esp. their workshops section, it seems that it's a conference for people starting out in the blogging world who want to make an impact as people of color.

My point in mentioning that it seems to be a conference for beginner bloggers is that, after finding that out, it's a whole other reason to not attend for folks who are already vets like Amardeep and Ennis and ANNA.

But hey, if any of you Wheats/Wheaties want to learn more about pumping up your blog, hit the BWB folks up and let us know how the conference turns out. :) Maybe they'll modify their conference next year if they see that they have a more diverse audience than they expected.

in 2000 bill bradley was running for the dem nomination on the plank of helping heal america's race problem. he had a speech he would give about america in black & white, etc. etc., a latino reporter got up and asked about where latinos fit in, and he didn't have a response and looked confused. this was in the year 2000, when less than half of americans of color were black. there's a dominant historical discourse in the united states to dichotomize race relations, and blacks and whites regularly engage in this. it's also regionally biased; if you live on the west coast it is pretty much not an issue since blacks are minority #3 in rank order, you have to use a multivalent terminology to capture lived reality. OTOH, in many eastern states, especially rust belt ones, minority = black, and the old model still holds sway. if you listen to the black media you'll note it as well, e.g., i listen to *news and notes* on my local NPR and often the discussion involves the black-white dichotomy, and occasionally someone will mention, "and it isn't just black and white, there are also latinos...."

There are some very snarky responses I can think of to this statement that apply to this blog as well as to the one I write for...

that's all you do, so why even type that? ;-) seriously.

razib, dude, I've been gone a while... when did you find god???

45 · PropaMcGandhi said

razib, dude, I've been gone a while... when did you find god???

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. I remember 'the atheist', 'the carvaka', but didn't notice the transition to "found god" phase. Or is it more of a transition to 'leave me alone - I'm not sure about nothing' phase? But, that's not like the razib we know and love.

White is White, Black is Black and we're Brown. I've never met a Black person who referred to themselves as Brown. Where the fuck is this confusion coming from? I swear to dog, I leave this blog for a few months and all sense does, too.

The only confusion about Brown is whether it's South Asian or Hispanic (remember Lighter Shade of Brown and their hit "On a Sunday Afternoon?"). Ennis and Fuerza Dulce had every right to be confused by such a sloppy concept for a conference. Also, this reminds me of the only BlogHer I attended, which I was a panelist at (When Globalization is Good for Women); when I was done paneling, I went to the session about/for Bloggers of Color...only to discover that it didn't include any South Asians, until an SM reader and I called them out on it...after which they had the grace to be mortified at such a lapse.

47 · A N N A said

I've never met a Black person who referred to themselves as Brown.

I've met many who do just that.

48 · ptr_vivek said

I've met many who do just that.

Well, your friends are more interesting than my friends, then. :) Pearl Bailey didn't call U street "Brown Broadway".

whatever the track-back situation, we're still yet to be graced with BWB organizers' search/outreach criteria.

whatever the track-back situation, we're still yet to be graced with BWB organizers' search/outreach criteria.

Given that I didn't see any of the major African American bloggers on their list (A or B list), I don't know if they had a systematic outreach criteria.

The best part of SM is the tangents it often sends me on... :)

Stephen Biko, in his trial in 1976, rejected the appellation "brown people" when it was put to him by Judge Boshoff:

Boshoff: But now why do you refer to you people as blacks? Why not brown people? I mean you people are more brown than black.

Biko: In the same way as I think white people are more pink and yellow and pale than white.

Boshoff: Quite ... but now why do you not use the word brown then?

Biko: No, I think really, historically, we have been defined as black people, and when we reject the term non-white and take upon ourselves the right to call ourselves what we think we are, we have got available in front of us a whole number of alternatives ... and we choose this one precisely because we feel it is most accommodating. [link]

I also didn't realize that Steven Biko coined "Black is Beautiful" (according to Wikipedia).

47 · A N N A said

I've never met a Black person who referred to themselves as Brown.

Well clearly they do, because they called their conference "Blogging While Brown" and as Ennis has so clearly pointed out, there aren't any REAL brown people involved

Sarcasm noted...but trying to please someone with your attitude is probably very tough...for the record I agree with Ennis.

51 · Ennis said

Given that I didn't see any of the major African American bloggers on their list (A or B list), I don't know if they had a systematic outreach criteria.

That's just not cricket.

54 · Amitabh said

Well clearly they do, because they called their conference "Blogging While Brown" and as Ennis has so clearly pointed out, there aren't any REAL brown people involved

Sarcasm noted...but trying to please someone with your attitude is probably very tough...for the record I agree with Ennis.

That doesn't mean you should stop trying! :-)

Why's everyone getting so touchy? I didn't see anything offensive in Ennis' post; there is no need to get more-PC-than-thou here.

That's just not cricket.

To infer based upon an list of public speakers? Why not?

As for emailing people directly - we blog on lots of issues without contacting the people involved. We blogged about Robert Putnam, for example, and he found the story and showed up to give his point of view. We didn't email him at Harvard and ask him for his reaction before we "went to press." I've simply put some questions out there. I expect a conference on blogging to monitor their coverage in the blogs.

I think the point of this thread is not supposed to be whether black people own, or can, or ever have, refer to themselves as brown, or just whether the conference at issue took a topic that should apply to any blog that addresses issues important to minorities and, either by intent or gross negligence, restricted it to African-American blogs, am I right? Assuming that this was the point, the only topic on the panel that seemed specifically targeted to African-American issues was the one entitled "'Umoja' from a black blogger's perspective" - every other topic seemed to address a subject that would be inclusive to any minority of color (yellow, red, brown, black, blue...), so why shouldn't mutineers feel as welcome to participate as any other blog?
As far as the unfortunate title of the conference is concerned (and the unusual assertion here that blacks are trying to own all of darker shades in the Crayola box), I'll just say, yes, black people do sometimes refer to themselves as brown, have the same intra-racial divisions as so many other minority groups over whether lighter or darker shades of their race are more attractive or otherwise better as any other minority group, and yes, even debate whether "Black" can be owned by African-Americans and can be used interchangeably, or whether that excludes blacks from other parts of the world. I know, this isn't news to anyone, but I just wanted to add that bit of perspective to the thread here.
(p.s. - Anna, I think the phrase was coined by John Rock, an abolitionist, in the mid-1800's. Just sharin'!)

58 · Ennis said

To infer based upon an list of public speakers? Why not?
As for emailing people directly - we blog on lots of issues without contacting the people involved. We blogged about Robert Putnam, for example, and he found the story and showed up to give his point of view. We didn't email him at Harvard and ask him for his reaction before we "went to press." I've simply put some questions out there. I expect a conference on blogging to monitor their coverage in the blogs.

That's not the reference; I had no problem with your previous explanation regarding trackbacks (else i would have said so)--i was saying that having no systemic search criteria seems impolite in a context where the choice of color-as-group-identifier can be controversial/confusing. Where language matters, is it not of paramount importance to carefully explain how bloggers came to be participants?

I refer you all to the song by D'Angelo called "Brown Sugar"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Iq_EfpGAH4o

Although I always thought it was about a black woman, it appears that it could also be about heroine.

I always thought it was about a black woman

Next you will reveal that you also thought 'No Sugar Tonight' is for diabetics.

here’s more context for “blogging while brown” in the black blogosphere

Terrance at the republic of t, wrote about what it means to be blogging while brown as a black political blogger. he’s talking about under representation on mainstream political blogs like daily kos.

also, i believe the woman who runs What about our Daughters is organizing the bwb conference. she also runs michelle obama watch

sorry bout the lack of link at terrance's citation, rusty html skills

republic of t

Game theory (social psychology, etc.). African American cultural/intellectual elites are Kaizer Soze smart about the representational power that comes with being half of a white/black American racial dialectic. I don't think this particular tack your taking (transparency about things that there's a performed mutual non-acknowledgment of) is a winning strategy. Instead I recommend alternate "blogging while brown" conferences where desis just happen to have hegemonic power (but some african americans, etc. are represented, too).

To clarify:
1. Yes, there's a deliberate appropriation of "brown" that the black community (well an intellectual elite segment) is experimenting with.
2. They're doing it with in-built plausible deniability of motive for enhanced effectiveness.
3. Trying to point that out isn't a winning strategy for non-white, non-black, (non-east asian) people of color, at least in the kabukified way racial discussion and representational heirarchical construction seems to work in the USA.
4. It's a compliment to recent successes of desis and others in securing enhanced visibility, cultural influence, and non-pigeonholedness in the USA.
5. The best response is the type the most socially deft members of our community tends to come up with. Which is generally something more subtle than "Hey, why are black people calling themselves brown all the sudden?!"

Sorry guys, but I've heard many a black person refers to themselves as brown. And not just in R&B songs. Honestly, there are some South Asians that have darker hues than some blacks, if we're going to get technical about the terms brown and black. And as one of my girlfriends said to me in college, "Black? Does my face look black to you? It's much more accurate to call me brown-skinned."

And why not send a letter to the group, asking if other minorities could join? Maybe no one ever asked....

Ultimately, we can't raise the station of our people if other minorities stay behind. It might be helpful to venture out there....I doubt it would come off as an attack if worded properly.

My confusion didn't even lie so much with the usage of the word "brown", but rather in the conference's advertising saying that it is a conference for "bloggers of color". When I read that I figured there would be *some* representation from desis/latinos/east asians/etc.

Let's stretch our arms out to our black/brown brothers and sisters and let them know that as people of color we're here for them too.

67 · Sona said

Sorry guys, but I've heard many a black person refers to themselves as brown.

Yes, that's why Intelligent Hoodlum once spat that he's "Brown and proud". Bill Clinton was our first, faux "Brown" president. Stokely Carmichael exclaimed, "What we gonna start sayin' now is Brown Power!" Nikki Giovanni (oh honey) and Maya Angelou? Brown Arts Movement. James Brown's my favorite though-- "Say it loud, I'm brown and proud".

This isn't about literal interpretations of hue, this is about common sense. I live in DC. It's got a non-trivial number of African-American residents, none of whom, within my earshot, have ever referred to themselves, their culture, or anything else black as "brown".

(p.s. - Anna, I think the phrase was coined by John Rock, an abolitionist, in the mid-1800's. Just sharin'!)

I think (after a bit more reading, more like I know) you are right and I'm so glad you shared. :)

47 · A N N A said

I've never met a Black person who referred to themselves as Brown.

African Americans have a number of hues "they" use when referring to themselves. A light-skinned person might be referred to as "yellow" or "high-yellow," like DJ Yellow from N.W.A. and reggae artist Yellowman. Someone night quite "yellow" but not dark, dark might be called "red," as Malcolm X was called "Detroit Red" when he was a young man, or Redd Foxx or rapper Redman. And then there's ashy or ashen.

What bothers me about the way this conference is marketed is not that the organizers are referring to themselves as brown--many "races" claim the brown label (as many others have pointed out)--but that they are claiming the whole "people of color" umbrella without a nod to other "types" of browns.

I refer you all to the song by D'Angelo called "Brown Sugar"......Although I always thought it was about a black woman, it appears that it could also be about heroine.

The Rolling Stones have a song Brown Sugar as well, lyrics go: "brown sugar, just like a black girl should"....

The way the anglosphere uses the words "black" and "asian" results in plenty confusion for desis. There are more black-skinned people in South Asia than the total number of people of african descent in the entire American Continent.

48 · ptr_vivek said

47 · A N N A said

I've never met a Black person who referred to themselves as Brown.

I've met many who do just that.

Krs-one made that statement on one of his cds back in the day. I am wondering as a black person oh lawd I said it did it offend you when the people of that conference called themselves brown? I know of a lot of Desi folks that are ten shades darker most African American.

70 · Harbeer said

African Americans have a number of hues "they" use when referring to themselves.

Come on... :) So these invited bloggers are all the same shade? Not yellow, not red, not a blue-black southerner...ditch digger or a governor?

What bothers me about the way this conference is marketed is not that the organizers are referring to themselves as brown--many "races" claim the brown label (as many others have pointed out)--but that they are claiming the whole "people of color" umbrella without a nod to other "types" of browns.

Thank you for getting back to the real issue, which was getting lost among the hair-splitting (I was guilty of it, too). It's problematic that "people of color" don't include other...colors.

61 · ShallowThinker said

I refer you all to the song by D'Angelo called "Brown Sugar"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Iq_EfpGAH4o

Although I always thought it was about a black woman, it appears that it could also be about heroine.

He is talking about weed. Diana Ross was in a movie called mahogony back in the day.

72 · Doug said

I am wondering as a black person oh lawd I said it did it offend you when the people of that conference called themselves brown? I know of a lot of Desi folks that are ten shades darker most African American.

No, it didn't offend me at all for the reason you are insinuating. It offended me for the reasons I have laid out, in my comments above.

How amusing, that it always comes back to this...that some of us are darker than African-Americans. So fucking what? Some of us are lighter, too. Some of us are in the middle. Let's let go of the paper bag, shall we? This isn't about being in denial about how "a lot" of desis are "ten shades" darker and it's insulting that anyone would attribute that to me of all people, when I regularly get pilloried across the pond for being too militant about the bullshit that is colorism.

To me, this isn't and was never about anything as useless or literal as the actual hue of one's skin. But if it makes some of you feel better, yes, there are South Asians who are darker than some black people. There are plenty of Scythian douchebag trolls who happily chime in and remind us of that, on ancient posts.

I didn't see anything offensive in Ennis' post; there is no need to get more-PC-than-thou here.

Here's the parting shot of his post that can be considered offensive: "Why not just call themselves Blogging While Black? Are we so cool now that even black folks want to be brown?"

Besides being potentially offensive it is laughably out of touch with reality to boast that desi-americans are considered "cooler" than african-americans.

47 · A N N A said

I swear to dog, I leave this blog for a few months and all sense does, too.

Anna, it's great to see you back, and in your element! :)

I'm on the fence on the big question here, but it's a discussion well worth having, and it's really interesting to see all the back-and-forth.

76 · colorizer said

Besides being potentially offensive it is laughably out of touch with reality to boast that desi-americans are considered "cooler" than african-americans.

Why is it so awful that his parting shot was so silly? It's not his finest writing but does it really merit such disdain? I see how it is; I have to acknowledge that desi people are the REAL black people because we're so dark-skinned compared to African Americans but he can't make a joke about desis being cool? Yes, we are utterly uncool, aren't we? Dark, in denial/"out of touch with reality" and uncool.

These comments have been...fascinating. Sad and fascinating.

And what about us East Asians/North Asians? We tend to only look brown if we're out in the sun for a long time... ;)

Seriously though, I think a lot of people are making a fuss out of Ennis' post, which highlights an important issue: a "bloggers of color" conference only seems to include one "color", whether on purpose or accidentally. And in the highly diverse America that we're living in, that is a big deal. While I'm not trying to downplay the amount of difficulty black Americans have to deal with----quite frankly, it's not covered enough in my opinion---it's even rarer that there's any adequate coverage of non-black minorities. The point is that whether this particular exclusion was intentional or not, it's symptomatic of a larger problem in our discourse about race, namely that it's implicit even at this date that Americans come in two colors: "black" and "white".

75 · A N N A said

72 · Doug said

I am wondering as a black person oh lawd I said it did it offend you when the people of that conference called themselves brown? I know of a lot of Desi folks that are ten shades darker most African American.

No, it didn't offend me at all for the reason you are insinuating. It offended me for the reasons I have laid out, in my comments above.

How amusing, that it always comes back to this...that some of us are darker than African-Americans. So fucking what? Some of us are lighter, too. Some of us are in the middle. Let's let go of the paper bag, shall we? This isn't about being in denial about how "a lot" of desis are "ten shades" darker and it's insulting that anyone would attribute that to me of all people, when I regularly get pilloried across the pond for being too militant about the bullshit that is colorism.

To me, this isn't and was never about anything as useless or literal as the actual hue of one's skin. But if it makes some of you feel better, yes, there are South Asians who are darker than some black people. There are plenty of Scythian douchebag trolls who happily chime in and remind us of that, on ancient posts.

Well from I am just stating facts it seems that folks are all uptight about a blogger group saying they are brown,I was just pointing out a fact that some Indians are darker than African Americans,yes I also know that we have black folks that are damn near white. It just strikes me as strange that the majority of these posts here even if it is not talking about blacks always come back to black people. I personally could careless about calling myself brown or whatever. I remember you stating once in on one of your blog that you used the phrase referring to yourself "That black don't crack". Should I get upset no because I could careless.

I am reading what the author of the blog wrote about blacks trying to be like Indians and that come off a bit smug. Was it sarcasm I don't know.

Doug - if you look at the post, I concede up front that African-Americans come in all hues. And you're right, there are some desis who are a good deal darker than many "blacks", I myself fall in that category with some of my black friends.

The last line was snark. It's a mark of the cultural role that African-Americans play that whites, asians, desis and others try to "act black" (whatever that means, as problematic as it is). I've never met anybody who tried to "act brown" in America though, and so it was amusing to point out that perhaps we had become so cool, so very cool, that now black folks were trying to pass as us. If this still isn't making sense, just understand that no offense was meant, because it's not worth belaboring the point.

Lastly, I think that the phrases "while black" and "while brown" have pretty narrow meanings. No matter how dark I am, I wont get pulled over by the popo for "driving while black." And even if you are far lighter skinned than I am, you are unlikely to get the treatment I get when I "fly while brown."

Okay Man I understand what you saying. I will admit I have seen Desis catching hell trying to get on a plane. I think that is a shame and a scandal.

81 · Ennis said

I've never met anybody who tried to "act brown" in America though

You're obviously not looking hard enough.

someone has commented on the bwb blog asking about their marketing techniques. their response was that they used online press release sevices and got publicity through news articles in mainstream papers. they also expressed an interest in suggestions on where to publicize the conference in the future.

so, you might make suggestions about using a search committee at the blog.

wow. what a mess.

85 · tracey said

wow. what a mess.

Hate begots hate.

Here is the back-story behind the conference, from AlterNet.

Hate begots hate.

Who's hating? I pointed out that this conference positioned itself as broad but seemed narrow. Here's more evidence, from one of the founding figures, in terms of what the conference is concerned with:

"There are things happening to black women and girls in this country that we think only happen in war zones in Africa," she says. "And nobody's covering them." [Link]

Important issues to be sure, and ones we should all care about. But it seems more and more clear that the focus of this conference is by, for, and of African-American bloggers.

I think this is valid and I'm sure Ennis was not hating....In his last statement "Why not just call themselves Blogging While Black? Are we so cool now that even black folks want to be brown?" I just took it as a joke. There's nothing hateful about that and his previous posts don't really show any attitude like that --- at least from what I've read.

I also agree that if you are trying to promote a persons of color blogging event, there should have been more outreach to other persons of color. And using the term "brown" was confusing at least to a desi; maybe many black americans don't know that desis use "brown" or latinos too (though I didn't know lations used it until recently). And I, as an indian american, didn't know that black americans used "brown" often.

I've come across the same issue in other events - the issue, that is, that "persons of color" is inclusive only to the interests of blacks (that is African Americans or Africa diaspora)

Not in the Hate hate sense. Sarcasm man sarcasm.

Not in the Hate hate sense. Sarcasm man sarcasm.

hmm....I just don't know how else to take what you said as literally meaning that the writer of this entry expressed "hate"....; What is there to be sarcastic about --- you are sarcastic that Ennis is hateful, when you know actually he's not. I guess I just don't get your "sarcasm" or irony in your statement, but maybe it's just me.

well, brown sugar refers to black women. hope that helps.

oh, colorizer went there first. just noticed.

but i've met browns who literally do try to pass for blacks (though they stand out like mitt on mlk day). But never vice versa. so blacks win this one, imo. once bollywood hits the US though, we may start benefiting from the flattery of imitation.

Well, sometime we can use word "blogging White Black". But I think, they are fine with brown rather than Black. I am not sure what Asian do.

.............
Sithara

Addiction Recovery North Dakota

ennis,

Get a grip. It's not that big of a deal.

*