July 08, 2008
Izzat? It isn’tNews
I’ve never quite understood what “Izzat” means, since it covers behavior I think of as thoroughly dishonorable and fails to cover other things that I think of as being quite honorable. But now, thanks to two tragedies in Georgia that have recently been in the news, I think I understand. Izzat means kill the bride.
Exhibit A: Chaudhry Rashid and his daughter Sandeela Kanwal
Rashid is accused of having killed his daughter because she wanted to get out of her arranged marriage:
Authorities allege that Rashid killed his daughter because he feared that her resistance to a recently arranged marriage would disgrace the Pakistani-American family… “She was very unhappy with the marriage, had not seen the husband in three months and was seeking a divorce,” … “The father felt like the he had to uphold his family’s honor…” [Link]
Let’s ignore for a second the fact that in Islam marriage is a civil affair and divorce is allowed. And let’s ignore the fact that if the marriage broke down, some responsibility must reasonably lay with the person responsible for choosing the groom. And let’s ignore the fact that the father was married to an American, so he clearly had not had an arranged marriage himself.
If the police account is correct (and Rashid has been charged but not yet tried, so the facts are not all out and there is no verdict), Rashid saw his daughter’s behavior as bringing disgrace to the family, and believed that the only way to set things right was to kill his daughter.
Exhibit B: Chiman Rai and his daughter-in-law Sparkle Michelle Rai
In this case, it’s Chiman Rai’s son, Ricky, who the father feels has stained the escutcheon by marrying a black woman, Sparkle Reid. The son is the one who has dishonored the family here, right? So what does the father do? Disinherit him? Kill his son? Nope - he hires hitmen to kill his daughter-in-law:
Atlanta jurors have found an India-born businessman guilty of masterminding the murder of his black daughter-in-law because he feared the mixed marriage would smear the caste-conscious family’s name… two women arrived at the apartment of Rai’s son Ricky and his new wife, pretending to deliver a package. A 300-pound hit man then choked Sparkle Reid Rai with a vacuum cleaner cord and stabbed her a dozen times within earshot of her 6-month-old daughter. [Link]
(The son went on to marry a desi girl, never telling her about his ex-wife or daughter, by then being raised by Sparkle’s parents. And Chiman Rai was just convicted on seven charges and may face the death penalty, but this is besides the point)
See, it’s the magic solution. No matter who does something “wrong” (the son, the daughter) nor what that “wrong” thing is (getting married, getting divorced), the answer is always the same: if you want to preserve the family’s honor, kill the bride and regain your “izzat.” Bride-killing, on the other hand, well that’s not shameful at all.
ennis on July 8, 2008 11:48 PM in News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
So gad for anonymity, but my uncle was going to take out his niece...for marrying a guy in a lower caste. My age, my Amreeka, my family. it never happened, as she got knocked up. But, the thought that such an end entered his mind, shames me to no end.
See, it’s the magic solution. No matter who does something “wrong” (the son, the daughter) nor what that “wrong” thing is (getting married, getting divorced), the answer is always the same: if you want to preserve the family’s honor, kill the bride and regain your “izzat.” Bride-killing, on the other hand, well that’s not shameful at all.
this is basically a vestigial cultural adaptation. in societies predicated on patrineal social capital the actions of any one member reflects, and affects, everyone along the lineage group. OTOH, in societies like the united states no one gives a flying f**k who your cousins are; in fact, you're liable not to know much about your cousins at all!
in any case, there's a good and rational response: this isn't a society where the death penalty is off the table :-)
Om Puri's character in East is East is like this I recall...he has an English wife but insists that his sons marry according to his whim
Aren't both Rai and Rashid of punjabi background, which if it is true would not be a surprise. Here in Canada this decade we had both Jaswinder Sidhu and Amandeep Atwal killed for for falling in love with men of differnent backgrouds. Also late last year a 16 year old pakistani punjabi girl was killed by her father in toronto for not covering her head when she want to school.
I don't even to bring up what happens in England where there have been many story of Indian punjabi girls having lost there life for letting there family down. And there have been many honor killings in Pakistani british community and I bet more then a share of those have been from punjabi community.
Despite the divide in 1947 among the punjabi community, they still have one thing in common no matter what part of the world they live in.
If Mr.Rai had a daughter that he had married a black man, that I bet he would have killed her, but since it was the other way around. The son is more popular then the daughter among many people with the same background with me.
I can recall a couple of years ago reading a story about a indian punjabi women in England try to kill herself and 2 kids when she jumped off a building. When her husband get home he found his wife, young son and daughter hurt really bad, so he picked up his son and try to get help for him, meanwhile leaving his wife and daughter to die.
Er, what's this got to do with a complex and deeply nuanced cultural notion such as 'izzat'?
This case is murder, pure and simple.
Sure, it is good to satirize hypocrisy in Desi or any other culture, but there is really no need discredit and marginalize non-western moral notions such as izzat in order to discredit any particular pathological behaviour patterns in non-western cultures, even if said pathological behaviour happens to invoke such notions in its defense.
There is a big difference between a collectivist mentality where what others do is important to you and reflects on you, and the impulse to take violent retribution almost exclusively against the women involved. The desire to have power over women, predominantly, up to and including power of life and death, is disturbing. In a patrilineal collectivist culture, it's the patrilineal rather than the collectivist aspect which seems most jarring.
Because in both cases, these are alleged to have been honor cases, cases where the killing was motivated by cultural notions of honor.
Like Punjabis don't have this in common with the rest of India. Bride killings occur all over India and other parts of the world, yet it is easy for you to stereotype the Punjabis. You must be really surprised that the punjabi Prime Minister of India hasn't yet killed his daughter for marrying a nonpunjabi! The "izzat" concept is an unfortunate remnant of middle eastern rule in India. However, India has its own native monstrosity in the form of Sati/dowry killings where the bride is killed or pressured to kill herself.
Its easy for the West to give labels to and highlight murders by non-westerns as being exotic. With all the high profile cases in the US of bride killings by White American husbands, it’s a confirmation of its Eurocentric nature that the West hasn’t come up with a juicy exotic label for those type of killings.
How come it's only called "honor killings" when brown peoples does it? And tying these murders to "izzat", I think, seems to claim that us brownies are driven by some ancient system of tribal thinking - which is a cultural explanation for something that doesn't need a cultural explanation. I agree with cookiebrown. Murder, pure and simple. Why give these complete thugs the benefit of anything else?
'Honor' Killing of Wives Is Outlawed in Brazil
What is really pitiful is how Rai's son, not only condoned his dad's actions(though it seems likely he didn't know about his dad's actions in advance), but also fooled an Indian lady into marrying him without disclosing some very important facts. The son doesn't seems to put his murderous dad over his own daughter.
I just want to add to my own post and say a little more strongly how I feel that this whole "honor killing" label is in itself an extremely patriarchal and racist way of expressing a certain form of xenophobic and anti-immigrant sentiment.
Racist in that (like I said earlier) it argues that brown people are governed by some sort of tribal thinking and that their murders are somehow different than ours.
Patriarchal in that, just as the victims of the murder are very often women (but not always - for example a boy who expresses their gender or sexuality a little differently could also be a target of violence), those who cry the most loudly about honor killings are those who want to point to the savagery of the "immigrant communities".
"Honor killings" are all around us. Isn't most gang violence retaliatory and guided by the same "tribal" principles assigned to immigrants? What about the cases of white women who are killed by their husbands for adultery?
I felt this much more acutely in Canada, but I think the US is headed in a similar direction, of using these incidents as examples of the "immigrant problem".
I'm not sure why this type of misogynistic killing is singled out as worse than other woman-hating murders (and I'm not saying you're doing this, Ennis). In my medium-size, sleepy town there is a regular trickle of husbands and boyfriends murdering their wives and girlfriends (a few every year).
If a man murders his wife, is that a honour killing? Given that it is much more common in North America (among both desis and non-desis) than honour killings, why is one type of killing more shocking to us westerners than the other? Is it becuase it involves parents murdering their daughters rather than husbands murdering their wives?
----
To Suki Dillon's list above (Jaswinder Singh, Amandeep Atwal), I'd add Aqsa Parvez, a Mississauga Punjabi girl killed by her father over disputes about westernization, Hijab, and who knows what else (the trial hasn't started yet).
I don't think desi parents murdering "wayward" daughters is a peculiarly Punjabi problem, but in North America, it seems to be Punjabi-focused.
But how many adulterous white women are killed by their brothers and fathers? I've never heard of such a thing. Furthermore, in many countries this is considered a justifiable practice, something that you wouldn't get convicted for (either in practice or sometimes even as a legal justification).
Ennis -- Plenty of women, whitem, desi, or whatever, are killed by their husbands or boyfriends. Not necessarily of adultery, but a variety of rule-trangressing behaviour (did OJ Simpson committ an honour killing?).
Do you see it as worse when a woman is killed by a blood relative, as opposed to being killed by a man who has publicly committed to love her?
Adultery killings by husband/boyfriends in this country usually care less penalties under “crimes of passion laws", which were created to give lesser penalties for these types of murders.
Where is the outrage when non-foreign family members kill women in this country? The media's constant highlighting of the rare honor killing in this country smacks of racism. One of the leading cause of death for women in the USA is murder by boyfriends, husbands and other family members. Violence against women is not a foreign custom or foreign concept is this country, yet it is only treated as such. Mainstream America needs to stop pointing at fingers at the ways "the foreigners" treat their women in this country and start looking at the staggering level of violence against women right here in this country by their "American men".
Huh? Every night on cable "news" - they focus on a white woman that is either murdered or missing. And news crews set up camp at the house, hounding the husband or boyfriend.
KXB writes: >>Every night on cable "news" - they focus on a white woman that is either murdered or missing. And news crews set up camp at the house, hounding the husband or boyfriend....
... as individuals. Their religion/race/culture/ethnicity is never attributed to the crime. That's all we're asking for from the media - treat us like individuals.
M. Nam
m.nam wrote:
Their religion/race/culture/ethnicity is never attributed to the crime. That's all we're asking for from the media - treat us like individuals
Actually, no. I'm asking that we all be treated as religion/race/culture/ethnic groups, including the white group.
Anway -- re-reading my comments, I forget to add that I think Ennis is right in hilighting the problems Desis have with killing their femalte relatives -- and that is't entirely appropriate on a desi blog to focus on desi issues, like endemic misogyny.
Like I said where is the outrage? With those stories the media merely sensationalize killing of certain "pretty young girls". Those cable "news" stories you mention are merely packaged and hyped as entertainment by the media. There is no actual outrage expressed in the media at prevalence of murders of women in America by men like they do when it's a foreigner killing.
Ennis, you seem to have too much idle time on your hand........
Sure there is. But more importantly, nobody sees these killings as justified. They are seen as criminal actions, not actions of honor. Consider this, by contrast:
Furthermore, it isn't common for parents or brothers to kill their adult daughters and sisters. That's quite unusual.
I'm not surprised by the white guy killed his wife excuse that some people here use to we don't have talk about the problems of sexism in our community and instead blame the media for coverage of the issue. This way the real issue always get swept under the table.
In Warren Jeff's case , it was his extreme fringe religious views that was a central motivator for his crime.
Maybe you've forgotten Scott Peterson who murdered his pregnant wife Laci some years ago. Or Robert Chambers, of the infamous "Preppie Murder" in the 80s.
I'd add Aqsa Parvez, a Mississauga Punjabi girl killed by her father over disputes about westernization, Hijab, and who knows what else (the trial hasn't started yet).
Its turns out that the brother now helped the father in covering up the crime.
Did the media on those cases really highlight or express outrage about violence against women in America? Or did they just sensationalize and market coverage based on look what happened to that pretty white woman or look at what the "pretty preppie boy" did?
I don't think anyone is claiming that here. Rather just expressing that the media treatment on crime coverage for certain groups is extremely disparate. The sexism both in the desi community and mainstream American affecting desi deserves more proportionate attention than the rare "honor killing" typically exotified in the mainstream media.
After the Laci Petterson case, did anyone come up to any white women and say it must be so horrible to be a white woman in your culture? Yet without fail after each sensationalized "honor killings" story is aired in the US, I have lost count of statements made to me indicating disdain for my community or from kinder folks who in essence say "poor you, it must be horrible being a woman in your culture"...
I can't believe some people here are whining about tying these murders to a cultural tradition. Yeah, sure most browns don't kill their daughters, but enough do that the practice needs to be stigmatized from within the community. Maybe then you won't feel like the mean white people are ganging up on you.
27 · Bichoo said
They did both, depending on the medium.
what? you've never heard of western feminists? that's all they do.
Ah yes, it didn't take long for bruised brown men to holler "racism" and "unfair" when confronted with the ugly truth about our complex, beautiful and flawed culture. Yes, any woman is more likely to be killed by a loved one, but my American girlfriends got grounded for going out with someone of whom their father disapproved. I was beaten until I was on the floor, for shaming my family. My girlfriends didn't carry the burden of being 24-hour ambassadors for their families/ethnic backgrounds. I did. I was born and raised in the United States, I dated someone from a slightly lower caste, and I almost died for it.
But let's protest about how we all just want to be treated like white people, and not allow the cultural context of these hideous acts to be brought up or acknowledged. Ostriches, the lot of you.
I have lost count of statements made to me indicating disdain for my community or from kinder folks who in essence say "poor you, it must be horrible being a woman in your culture"...
I'm a punjabi male of jatt sikh background and I think its horrible for many young females in my own community. I live in the Vancouver area for the last 6 years which has the biggest indian punjabi community outside of the poonjab and I'm amazed at how much sexism there is here.
what? you've never heard of western feminists? that's all they do.
I'm afraid that western feminists who many of them suffer from white liberal guilt, will avoid speaking out about problems in the south asian/middle eastern community cause they don't want to be excused of being racist for the real reasons for the problems due to backward cultural beliefs.
I believe that in the western countries that mainstream women rights group have failed women of certain minority groups due to cultural differences.
Why don't you do something then? If you see so much shit going on, you could at least try to do something.
I personally will do without people assuming that I'm beaten by my father every night, locked at home, etc.
The "izzat" concept is an unfortunate remnant of middle eastern rule in India. However, India has its own native monstrosity in the form of Sati/dowry killings where the bride is killed or pressured to kill herself.
Unfortunately the dowry killing is still prevalent in India. On my recent trip there, I read about quite a few incidents of that going on.
CR writes:>>But let's ...not allow the cultural context of these hideous acts to be brought up or acknowledged. Ostriches, the lot of you.
This line of thought is eerily similiar to the California textbook debate, where Hindu groups wanted the text books to contain only positive aspects of Hinduism because for all other religious groups, the textbooks carried only positive aspects of those respective religions. The "secular" activists wanted only the Hindu religion to be treated differently, calling the Hindus as ostriches.
Nobody is saying the cultural context should not be acknowledged - it should be done in a forum that:
1. Makes a positive difference
2. Acknowledges cultural context of all such cases.
MSM does not fall into either of the other category.
M. Nam
You know that speech that Obama gave about poor people holding on to guns and religion? Well the same logic can be used with desi's.
I wonder how many well off, educated brown people kill there own family and by "well off" I mean educated middle class. I think people, who dont have anything to fall back on always fall back onto pride and culture. In these cases pride is broken and the culture says kill the source.
Chiman Rai was a former Math professor turned businessman. Rashid owned a pizza parlor. I can't speak to the level of Rashid's education, but he was married to an American, so he was probably somewhat assimilated rather than living just for the old country.
Let's move a little back from India--too close perhaps.
When the Kurdish Yezidi girl was stoned to death in April 07, it actually caused an increase of that "breathtaking oxymoron," "honor killings." The number of girls/women killed among just that relatively small group of Kurds was in the tens of thousands over a couple years. I was flabbergasted. One girl was only eleven. I'm sorry if people resent it, but there's no habit of murder quite on that scale among Americans, or else I've been missing a lot of action.
With reference to legal aspects, in the West, if a man, or woman kills their spouse it is a crime which was/is often punishable by death. However, there is a traditional defense in French law, called "Crime of Passion" whereby someone can be exonerated for murder if the crime was committed in a fit of "passion". The murderer can be male or female and usually such cases involved sex, jealousy, "honor" There's nothing quite like it in Anglo-Saxon legal tradition. The closest thing would be that generic term, "manslaughter" which doesn't have quite the same ring as crime of passion.
Huband-murder in old England was considered treason and punishable by burning (they'd usually strangle her first). Killing your wife, however, was just plain murder.
"Honor" killers in countries where it is prevalent get lenient sentences, and you get the impression they wouldn't get any sentence if some people had their way.
In America, far from being ignored, there has been an avalanche of spousal-murder coverage in books, articles, tv, movies, etc. Feminists have, if anything, overstated the prevalance of the crime, leading men to start telling their own "black widow" tales.
The fact is, in America, if you live in a "good" neighborhood, it is unlikely anybody is going to kill you, so when someone does, it's BIG news.
Why do people have such a hard time grasping the law of averages. I'm sorry--I'm as much tired as anybody of being associated with horrible acts that neither I nor anyone in my family has committed (to my knowledge), but let's face it, people from "eastern cultures" do have that going on in our culture, if not our personal space. If there were not some advantages to being in this country, we or our parents would have stayed in India.
So what's the trend with "honor killings"?
Is this becoming a bigger problem or is it happening less and less than it was in the past?
(Living in my bubble and having few Indian friends, I have no idea. So please share your thoughts)
ShallowThinker:
I think you're on the right track, but I think it has less directly to do with how "well off" they are, and moreso to do with how Westernized/integrated they are. The Punjabi communities in North America and the UK, as others have alluded to, seem to have more "honor killings" than their counterpart desi communities, and that might have a lot to do with how large and insular their communities tend to be. Old world backward traditions are more likely to survive in an environment where you are surrounded by others bringing the same cultural baggage to the table.
I was visiting a town next to Jonesboro where this happened this past weekend and I find this all very disturbing. The desi population in the smaller towns south of Atlanta is very minimal. I also got the feeling that this breeds a certain type of insular behavior where if people don't feel like they are part of the larger community they withdraw into themselves and don't engage with the larger community. They become even more conservative and insular and cling to a perceived sense of who they are or things like "izzat".
CR writes:>>But let's ...not allow the cultural context of these hideous acts to be brought up or acknowledged. Ostriches, the lot of you.
This line of thought is eerily similiar to the California textbook debate, where Hindu groups wanted the text books to contain only positive aspects of Hinduism because for all other religious groups, the textbooks carried only positive aspects of those respective religions. The "secular" activists wanted only the Hindu religion to be treated differently, calling the Hindus as ostriches.
Nobody is saying the cultural context should not be acknowledged - it should be done in a forum that:
1. Makes a positive difference
2. Acknowledges cultural context of all such cases.
MSM does not fall into either of the other category.
M. Nam
I don't often agree with Moornam but this I agree with. And it's not just white people...there are other Americans and these stereotypes of oppressed women and backward culture has been expressed to me by black americans too.
One thing in that article on Chinman Rai really bothered me - the article said "caste-conscious" society. I guess in my desi background, I don't hear much about caste, or when I do it's in a very benign way; Sometimes I've heard someone express pride in the brahminness or what not, but I don't think caste, particularly among American desis really is very relevant.
Wonder what the reaction is among black Atlanta residents on the Chinman Rai murder...what a freakin horrible man! I often feel that black people and desis already don't get along or are suspicious of each other and black people feel that desis all are racist to them - I know this is anecdotal...and not based on a survey. So this is my experience, despite working for a civil rights org and having many black colleagues - I still feel this way. So anyhow, I hope the Rai murder, doesn't fuel problems and stereotypes of desis as all racist against them.
I think you're on the right track, but I think it has less directly to do with how "well off" they are, and moreso to do with how Westernized/integrated they are. The Punjabi communities in North America and the UK, as others have alluded to, seem to have more "honor killings" than their counterpart desi communities, and that might have a lot to do with how large and insular their communities tend to be. Old world backward traditions are more likely to survive in an environment where you are surrounded by others bringing the same cultural baggage to the table.
The punjabi community is the biggest of all the desi communities in the west, and alarge % of those who come to the west are not that educated and alot of them come from the villages of the punjab. Since there numbers are so high in the west, the ended up areas with high punjabi population, so there is very little need to intergrate into western society or have very little social contact outside of work with someone of a different background. So there alot of people who immigrated to the west who still live with 1950 punjabi village mindset. And nobody suffers from this more then young women who live between 2 very different cultures.
This is a bigger issue in Canada and England then the United States due to the fact the population is more spread out in the US and it harder for the backward uneducated to immigrate then in Canada and England. I have alot of family in Central and North California which has the biggest punjabi community in the United States and they are alot more intergrated and more forward thinking then what I see in Vancouver.
So what's the trend with "honor killings"?
The trend in honor killings is that not a big problems in the United States, where as in Canada, Australia and Western Europe communities among South Asian/Middle Eastern population are it seems to be a bigger problem.
Alot of the honor killings have to do with the girl ended up with a guy of different religon or race. But other races have the same issue, yet they don't seem to murder there women for doing this.
Many South Korean and Japanese women in the west date outside there race and yet I can't recall a story about a East Asian man killing his daughter for doing this. And how many white-black couples are there, yet how often do you hear about somebody killing there daughter for doing this. They may disown there child for doing this, but it alot different then killing them.
Let me share my 2 cents.
I have known very many white feminists in the U.S., and I cannot agree with the people who say that they look the other way when there is spousal abuse within the southasian/middle-eastern community. They tend to be EXTREMELY condescending towards our community, and I have many times gotten the "Awww....poor you, it must be so hard growing up in such a repressed society" comments my whole life. They are VERY annoying. I tend to correct them, and let them know that most desis do NOT go around killing/abusing/burning their daughters and wives. I have had to stick up for desi men and our culture more times than I can count. And this stereotype tends to be everywhere in the U.S.--I've heard similar statements from African-American men and women, and East-Asian-Americans, as well.
That is why I feel that we shouldn't let the media sensationalize these types of things. It very easily leads to xenophobic thoughts.
45 · Demondoll said
I'm so sorry you had to put up with that. It's so much worse than my almost getting killed for dating someone my dad didn't approve of, yes, yes it is.
mate, hvae not heard anythign about such killings in Australia. could you please provide some links.
There was the case of the kurdish girl Pela Atroshi a few years ago. And a few months back a muslim man killed his wife after his teenager daughter became a christian.
Which is probably the justification for that German judge who not too long ago ruled that a Moroccan-German woman couldn't divorce her husband just because he abused her, citing the "Moroccan cultural environment in which it is not uncommon for a man to exert a right of corporal punishment over his wife," . Now there is a case of applying "cultural context". Oddly it seemed to upset people. Maybe the culturally insensitive German law was better ?
CR:
"I'm so sorry you had to put up with that. It's so much worse than my almost getting killed for dating someone my dad didn't approve of, yes, yes it is."
Your problems with your loser family has nothing to do with what demondoll experienced....dont be such an attention *%%%4. why don't you go to police instead of whining here. desi girls are way too soft ....:( if any man would had tried that shit with my sis i would play football with his head.
i can't believe some of the comments on this thread about western labels and media. face the facts. our people have created a mysoginistic culture in which a woman's life is valued less than a man's. we place limited worth on our women and we have for centuries. where else (besides perhaps the middle east) has a culture sanctioned dowry and honor killings and sati? in what other country have we had to pass laws against fetus gender selection? why is a menstruating woman forbidden from entering a temple? does no one find it strange that sita is considered the ultimate example of a hindu woman because she killed herself after returning to ram after living in another man's captivity (to quiet down the complaints from the masses about her "honor" - even thoguh she was kidnapped). What kind of morals are we passing down to our kids?
we may consider ourselves progressive here in the west, but the ugly truth is that we still have these deep rooted beliefs in our psyche as a culture and a people.
ugh. it's just so infuriating.
49 · lazy_ngawang said
First of all, go fornicate with your inexcusably rude self. Second, I did go to the police and that's why I'm still alive and responding to the likes of you. But thanks for making assumptions about me being "too soft". Why so protective of Demondoll? And why so appallingly insulting towards millions of desi women you don't even know? How lucky your sister is, to have such a compassionate sibling. "Loser family" indeed.
Break it up, everybody. I don't want to close down the thread.
lazy_ngawang
Don't assume and don't assult. Be respectful of other people's experiences, OK?
CR:
I understand you might have been upset by demondoll's comment, and understandably so, but let's keep this clean. It's legit for demondoll to be frustrated about cultural condescension, we write about that here too. Frustration at being talked down to need not negate recognition of real problems in the community.
Sigh, everybody, just ... count to 100 or something and cool down before commenting again. Thanks.
17 · Bichoo said
Honor killings might be rare, but the coercion and oppression that lead up to them is pretty common. Do you follow what I'm saying? Do you realize how many people are abused and stuck in situations they would not freely choose because of these barbaric patriarchal attitudes and the actions that follow from them? A lot. Every day of life sucks for a lot of women (and queers) in our community and life sucks for their kids, too. Man, some of the stories I've heard...and I've had a sister and a cousin disowned, too.
36 · ShallowThinker said
Yeah dude, people from good families never do wrong.
46 · CR said
Word.
Using your personal tragedy to mockingly oppression-olympics-one-up someone else and their experiences? CLASSY. That totally makes me sympathetic to you! Seriously, I'm sorry you went through what you did, but not everyone did and I think it is annoying when people assume that you're SO OPPRESSED. So can we keep the issue of people assuming things about brown women, and the issue of shit like this ACTUALLY happening, separate please?
Yeah my parents have been more strict that regular American parents, but never abusive, and neither have my friends' parents been (a couple of them told their parents they have boyfriends, and their parents weren't happy but they certainly didn't bring out the matches either). Since this blog is all about proclaiming the diversity of desi American experiences, I'd like to make clear that mine, and many others' doesn't include this sort of misogynistic attitude.
Aside, menstruation is considered impure in nearly all major world religions, and women aren't allowed to enter places of worship in all of those. A lot of the misogyny we're talking about has been part of many cultures throughout history, and the undercurrents will never go away despite how urban and modern our world gets, but for some reason it's highly concentrated in the subcontinent, or it seems to be so. To tackle the problem we need to actually look at its roots in culture instead of overgeneralizing and condemning an entire society.
CR:
I'm sorry for what you went through, and women who are abused certainly have my sympathy. However, you could try being more respectful in your comments. It sounds like you don't want to hear other people's points-of-view.
It's true that there are some problems in our community, and we ought to face them honestly. However, we should not bash our entire culture based on these problems. Sometimes, desis are way too critical, in a way that I rarely see in anyone else. There are good things and bad things about EVERY culture. It saddens me when Desis don't see the good in their own culture. I think this may ultimately have to do with power and our position in the world. We are bottom-feeders in a sense, because we come from a poor country. And it is common for bottom-feeders to loathe themselves and wish to be like those at the top. If we want to be truly improve as a culture, we must learn to truly appreciate ourselves, both the good and bad parts of us. Often the good stems from the bad and vice-versa; things are often interconnected.
There is no need to throw the baby out with the bath-water.
That's all I have to say.
*women aren't allowed to enter places of worship during menstruation in all of those
55 · Demondoll said
Unless it is a baby girl, of course.
54 · bindu said
Whoa. Didn't the intern already tell everyone to chill before commenting on this highly-emotional and controversial subject? I don't know that your statement (or "last word"-ing in general) is moving us towards productive dialogue. To accuse someone who is obviously hurt that they are "Using" a personal tragedy implies something rather unsavory which isn't the classiest thing to do to a survivor, is it? :(
It's difficult to get "sorry" from the earlier part of your quote, the one which ends in the sarcastic declaration of sympathy which I excerpted above.
In any case, if one of us goes through it, that's one girl too many. I'm saddened that people are focusing on certain aspects of this, out of insecurity, trollishness, denial, whatever. It must feel like a slap in the face to someone who has experienced this to read a number of comments which are critical of the media when what we really need to do is call out these attitudes when we witness them, in our family and friends. Commenters hello, campmuir and Harbeer have all tried to explain why crying "racism!" or ignoring very real issues is an awful thing for us to do. I guess for those who have ears, let them hear...
A little more respect, for everyone, please?
55 · Demondoll said
One more thing-- there's plenty of celebrating the good about our community but like most humans, we are loathe to examine the bad, which is why some of the comments upthread seem disingenuous.
Look at the discussion inspired by this post. It turns in to a chorus of "not me! my parents were awesome!" and "the media is racist!". Demondoll, you yourself decided to bring up condescension as your primary concern and you worried that the media's sensationalism was making that problem worse for you...how is that helping us improve as a culture, if we aren't willing to take our lumps, because we're afraid of arming "feminists" or others with ammunition?
Jesse Jackson didn't like Obama speaking the truth to his community on Father's day...sometimes we need to confront what's wrong within our family, instead of avoiding it or rushing to distance ourselves from it.
The thread has been closed for a while to give people time to cool off.