You want cringeworthier? Watch RajniKanth in Sivaji do some dance where he acts like a white guy AND a black guy in dreads.

(?)You want cringeworthier? Watch RajniKanth in Sivaji do some dance where he acts like a white guy AND a black guy in dreads.

link? can people post more stuff like this, this is really bizarre.... (i don't watch bollywood, so this is exoticization is all exotic to me).

link? can people post more stuff like this, this is really bizarre.... (i don't watch bollywood, so this is exoticization is all exotic to me).

Classy all the way.

Wow, watching that Rajnikant video makes me want to see the film "Sivaji," if I can get ahold of a subtitled version...

The chorus is Dil Dance Maare all throughout, even the places you have Jaan se maare

disgusting - bollywood has become more bizarre. Is it just me, or has bollywood gotten "whiter" as the times have passed - say compared to our parents generation some 35 years ago? When I have seen old bollywood movies, that actors seemed darker and more about Indians in India. What is going on. Between Shah Rukh Khan and his fair and lovely commercial and now crap like this.

And no, I don't like the song.

Does anyone else find the mingling of Hindi and English super tacky? I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words.

Does anyone else find the mingling of Hindi and English super tacky? I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words.

Yes, I don't like the mixing in bollywood songs. Like the song "pretty women" in one of SRK's movies - don't like the mixing of the two languages and yeah, I don't know Hindi either but sounds so nice on its own in bollywood melodies

5 · Prashant said

The chorus is Dil Dance Maare all throughout, even the places you have Jaan se maare

I thought it was "dil chance maare" and then "dil dance maare"

Too many Govinda songs?

5 · Prashant said

The chorus is Dil Dance Maare all throughout, even the places you have Jaan se maare

I thought it was "dil chance maare" and then "dil dance maare"

Too many Govinda songs?

Ai ya. It took me half the video to figure out that the blonde was not Caucasian, but instead Kareena Kapoor.

Sigh. Mom keeps asking me why I don't go watch Bollywood films. It's hard to sift between the ones I find ridiculous (ie this) and ones I like (ie Company or Mere Baap Pele Aap, although the latter was a bit silly at times).

What? You're not "happy in your heart" when you see a white white face?

1 · Pravin said

You want cringeworthier? Watch RajniKanth in Sivaji do some dance where he acts like a white guy AND a black guy in dreads.

You conveniently left out the part where the girl says "I dont like dark guys". Obviously that wouldnt help you with arguing, I suppose!

But when MIA uses some folk songs and beats from around the world, it is hip and cool? because they are , different? maybe to get a break from the usual?

You conveniently left out the part where the girl says "I dont like dark guys".

And then there is a post-facto rationalization where she says she only did that because she wanted an excuse to get rid of him. The real reason why she didn't want to marry him was... wait for it, wait for it... MISMATCHED HOROSCOPES! Such modern types we all are, yaar.

Wow, watching that Rajnikant video makes me want to see the film "Sivaji," if I can get ahold of a subtitled version...

Subtitles are superfluous for the sooperstaar experience. A good classic Rajnikant film from (relatively) recent times is Baasha or Annamalai, btw.

Not to over-analyze or over-interpret the comingling of languages in the song, but to put that which Amardeep explained in further context....the other character in this film (who's not in the video) is mafia don Anil Kapoor, and the big joke about him in Tashan is that he wants to speak English "like George Bush" (which is the pretext why Bebo's character goes and cons Saif into becoming Anil's tutor), and through the whole film, Anil's character speaks this stew of heavily accented Hinglish (with many old filmi references).

The East-West, Hindi-English divide are also represented in the Akshay & Saif characters. Akshay is a devout aarti-performing, Hindi-speaking Kanpur guy (also the birthplace of the film's director, Vijay Krishna Acharya), whereas Saif is the Westernized Bombay guy who works at a call centre by day and tutors English classes by night, in between chasing women (Akshay's character, Bachchan, is of the "ick, girls give you cooties" school of thought). When the film opens, the two guys are in a red car swerving down a road in Ladakh fighting over which music to listen to; Akshay keeps tuning in some old-time filmi music station, then Saif flips the dial to rock.

My girlfriends and I were appalled when we first saw the video in the weeks before the film's release.

To Amardeep's question, I couldn't get it out of head and had it in heavy rotation on my iPod for a few weeks after seeing the film, though lately I've gravitated to Hard Kaur's Talli and two Jaane Tu songs....

Still, am I the only one to find the song/video at once deeply embarrassing and oddly catchy?

I haven't seen the movie, but I thought it was supposed to be intentionally flashy and over the top, so I find the pidgin used in the song quite inventive. I also generally found Tashan's soundtrack catchy.

What is going on. Between Shah Rukh Khan and his fair and lovely commercial and now crap like this.

There's more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJhSogkI284

Anyone remember the

Fair and Lovely

I don't like the way they mix English with INdian languages in their songs for the most part, only because they seem to do it in a very amateurish manner. It messes up the flow while the English itself sounds kind of like "deaf speak".

However, sometimes, I guess it is warranted as in this old Telugu movie where the Kamalhassan character has to sing in english as he doesn't know Telugu.

Second what Filmiholic said. The running joke in the film is that some of the characters are aspiring to be white as in they would like to speak like George Bush hence the butchering of Hindi and English. I see maybe one bollywood flick every two years so I can't comment about the state of the movies but The villain was in Tashan was hilarious. I was somewhat bored with the standard fight sequences and songs in the movie, but every time the villain was on screen in his mangled Hinglish it was quite funny and in a way a pretty interesting parody of certain Indian perceptions of the west.

About the Ponds White Beauty cream.

I would just like to point out that the product is also advertised outside of South Asia as well with Oriental actors playing the same roles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8vCOpzyIyM

Amardeep:

Wow, watching that Rajnikant video makes me want to see the film "Sivaji," if I can get ahold of a subtitled version...

Wasn't that covered on SM already?

The white-bodypart vs black-bodypart paradigm has been around in different guises for years. There was a Hindi song from the mid-1990s whose lyrics went "gore gore mukhde, dil kale kale".

Or the Tamil song from the movie Shakthi whose lyrics went:

unga tholu mattum veLLai
vandhadichadhellam koLLAi
kruppaga irundhaalum
enga uLLam ella veLLAIveLLai

Which, loosely translated, means "Your skin alone is white but you looted us. We may be dark but our insides are white".

Of course, I cannot read too much into that song. The rest of its lyrics went:

gumma gumma nee kulichu paaru summa
idhu elizabeth rani vandhu kuLichu pona kamma
gumma gumma idhu reel illai amma
andha rani mudhugu thechadhu en paatiyoda amma

(If you don't understand enough Tamil to follow that, count it as a blessing).

I eagerly await the day when I hear lyrics like "Your pancreas may be red, but your adrenal glands are green. On the other hand, my thyroid is always purple".

7 · Meena said

I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words

Hindi has been influenced at birth by Farsi and at growth by Urdu. Hindi brahminised from Sanskrit. Why not get corrupted at its old age by English?

Is it just me, or has bollywood gotten "whiter" as the times have passed - say compared to our parents generation some 35 years ago?

Yup, It has. Mixed - Race parents. Katrina Kaif (1/2 British), Dino Morea (1/2 Itailan), Celina Jaitley (1/2 Afghan), Tulip Joshi (1/2 Lebanesse - Armenian)

the song is meant to be sarcastic. you americans don't get sarcasm and on top of that you arty lefty desis take things way too seriously and earnestly. (i'm writing from london and i'm desi too).

*Oriental* in the contemporary American definition.

Anyway I should've said (non South)Asian/Pacific Islanders playing the same roles.

One thing I did find refreshing in this dance number was that the firangis in the background were attractively clothed (that is, color-coordinated and well-fitting) and attractive themselves. So often, the non-Indians in the club or party scenes, they look out of place and their clothes are either sloppy, out of style and ill-fitting, or (especially on the women) they're almost skimpy enough to make Lil Kim blush. (Interestingly, in this film, thanks to the heroine's much-touted Size Zero figure, she's the one in the bikini and Daisy Dukes.)

On the subject of white skin, if you see the full version of this song, after about 1 minute or so in, when Saif has shed his silver blazer, take a look at the ever-increasing sunburn on his arms and chest. (Courtesy of the altitude, strong sun and scant cloud cover, I guess.) As they make their way through the video, he looks increasingly, painfully lobster-y.

gumma gumma nee kulichu paaru summa idhu elizabeth rani vandhu kuLichu pona kamma gumma gumma idhu reel illai amma andha rani mudhugu thechadhu en paatiyoda amma

This sounds like Kavignar Vaali at his lyrical finest.

*Oriental* in the contemporary American definition.

in the USA most people are conditioned now to presume that 'oriental' refers to objects; so for people you should say 'east asian.'

I dunno, but I see a new wedding floor dance song for masala couples everywhere! ...Well, except for masala couples that are desi-black or desi-latino/hispanic or desi-asian. You get the point.

I think Bollywood songs are getting from bad to worse. This affliction is partly from MTV channels which remixes old songs like this - Kajra Mohabbat Wala

32 · Bridget Jones said

I think Bollywood songs are getting from bad to worse. This affliction is partly from MTV channels which remixes old songs like this - Kajra Mohabbat Wala

Btw here is the original one - Kajra Mohobbat Wala

Anjum: I hope you are right, to think otherwise would be pretty depressing. I am kind of right wing as far as the SM political spectrum goes and am on the record as hating all fine arts grads but you can see how we might jump to conclusions when Bollywood actors peddle fairness creams, when entertainment companies run by starlets bar African-American cheerleaders from the cricket field, and when some other starlet coos braindead stuff like "my makeup person can even make Africans look good".

the song is meant to be sarcastic. you americans don't get sarcasm and on top of that you arty lefty desis take things way too seriously and earnestly. (i'm writing from london and i'm desi too).

Yup, It has. Mixed - Race parents. Katrina Kaif (1/2 British), Dino Morea (1/2 Itailan), Celina Jaitley (1/2 Afghan), Tulip Joshi (1/2 Lebanesse - Armenian)

So in the past there weren't so many mixed stars? Does anyone know?

But when MIA uses some folk songs and beats from around the world, it is hip and cool? because they are , different? maybe to get a break from the usual?

Hmm...what do you mean by this? When MIA sings in Tamil and English in 10 dollar, it sounds good to me. I think it just sounds cheesy in bollywood movies and I've heard some east asian songs and sounds terrible.

Seems to me I am the only one who liked the song - I like it slightly less after watching the video now, but that is not the point. What seems to have escaped everyone's attention is that most of the bollywood music today, with a few notable exceptions, is purely crap.

Until recently, Poetry was language at its best - the standards have more than dipped and often enough what passes for lyrics not only lacks completely in meaning(fullness), but in some cases the overzealous but ignorant lyricist actually manages to get it so wrong that the meaning becomes a comic mystery - I am reminded of 'furqat-e-gham dikhla jaa" where gham-e-furqat is juxtaposed.

This song mixes the two languages on purpose - the context already explained in the above comments, and yet every line retains meaningfulness and for this the lyricist deserves praise. It is a very intelligent piece of work.

Gives new meaning to idiotic. These people have way too much time and money.

I am kind of right wing as far as the SM political spectrum goes and am on the record as hating all fine arts grads

It is always amusing when the all-about-individualism-righties believe in collectivism only in tarring lefties as oppressive elites. I guess Marxism lives on. Maybe that is what Fukuyama meant by the end of history.

Still, am I the only one to find the song/video at once deeply embarrassing

I avoid that embarrassment by refusing to identify with Bollywood. It's not my culture, it's just a highly cheapened, sentimentalized, commercialized, watered-down version of various Indian, Western, and eccentric inspirations. Which is not to say I never watch...I do sometimes...and occasionally they come out with a gem...I like some of the songs...but overall I don't let a bunch of people in Mumbai decide what my identity is all about. I will admit that the movies do say something about India though.

oh come, stop your cringing. where's your sense of humor. The lyrics deal with the serious issue of race and colorism: whitee faces, darkee faces, reddee sunburns. Who can dance? It's all there people.
Lyrics and delivery are not exactly Tagore or Winston Churchill, but if George Bush speak is the inspiration, it'll do just fine.

Re: language and B'wood: there's much less Urdu than before, and not even much understanding of Urdu anymore when it comes to dialogs, and increasingly lyrics (unless you're talking about the oldsters who are still working). The lingua franca of the set is still largely Hindi, but English is becoming more common among the actors, directors, producers etc. As for the costumes, the haphazard effects is because there's still not much pre-planning in filmmaking. When it's time to shoot a dance sequence, it's a mad rush to get something, anything to throw on the dancers. There are dance costume designers hired to do more co-ordinated costumes for films, but there are only one or two of them. And yes, make-up men do consider it a professional requirement to make their heroes and heroines look "fair" which they feel is the same thing as "beautiful."

And yes, make-up men do consider it a professional requirement to make their heroes and heroines look "fair" which they feel is the same thing as "beautiful."

i've told this anecdote before, but i'll tell it again. i was talking to a leftist indian friend of mine about the fact that actors in bollywood look much more like southern europeans than they do the average indian (perhaps not the average chiptvana brahmin, but the average indian, including most people in the diaspora). his response was pretty straightforward, he simply asked that i complain only when american movies start casting ugly or non-attractive people. so the same principle with bollywood, since very light skin is the necessary precondition for good looks of course they'll all be light skinned. my friend is probably darker skinned than the average indian, so it wasn't superiority speaking here. additionally, he understood why this bias is offensive, but he just held that movies are entertainment and the reality is that indians think that whiter skinned people are attractive and you can't force dark skinned people down the throats of the movie going audiences aside from as villains or buffoons. additionally, he suggested that there was prominent dark skinned actress, bipasha basu. i didn't know what she looked like, so when i looked her up i was shocked that she's probably around the middle range of south asian skin tones, if not somewhat lighter than average, and *that* was dark skinned???

I avoid that embarrassment by refusing to identify with Bollywood.

Me too. It's funny how you can be born in the US, speak your parent's language and be passionate about what's going on in the desh but reject popular Indian cinema and you are "confused". I can see how it can be comfort food for the homesick but come on...

On the plus side I think they are great at cinematography, technical aspects of film making. And no doubt there are great directors & screenwriters, they just need to be freed from the shackles of the investors who have a low estimation of the sophistication of the Indian film going public.

Its "chance" maare re.

Gosh Amardeep! your ABD slip is showing.

And its not "dil woh beating fast", its "dil-wa beating fast" (its a dialect of hindi, where words 'sasura' etc come from. I think its bhojpuri)

And to "maaro a chance" means to try to pataoo a girl.

Its "chance" maare re.

Gosh Amardeep! your ABD slip is showing.

Hey, plenty of people on this thread have been hearing it differently; I think some of them must be DBDs. My wife said "chance" too, but I decided just to go ahead and dhappo the lyrics from here. I thought that would be the safest thing, since I myself was unsure how to hear the lyrics.

(As a side note, it's interesting that such mindless lyrics have been getting so much close attention!)

26 · anjum said

the song is meant to be sarcastic.

Exactly. Its made in humor, with the dehati hindi and western costumes.
And hindi songs have had english lyrics right from the time when Amitabh sang "my name is Anthony Gonzalves...". Gosh that was such a hit song.

Chill out. No need to diss Bollywood just coz it makes you cringe about your heritage. Your mom's indian-ness prolly makes you cringe too.
remember, "we are like this only".

And its not "dil woh beating fast", its "dil-wa beating fast" (its a dialect of hindi, where words 'sasura' etc come from. I think its bhojpuri)

Udit Narayan mentioned that in a TV interview when he was on tour in the USa month or so back, that it's a remake of a Bhojpuri folk song.

I know the whole fair n Lovely/white is right thing is played out on this forum. But, this thread actually made me look for the SRK Fair and Handsome commercial...

I bet you all did not know that the product contains "American double-strength peptides and herbs".

That's good science the cosmetics industry can definitely stand behind.

that was kind of scary. no honestly. scary. i'm hoping it was a sick joke and tomorrow i'll wake up and it will all be gone.
what ever happened to "it's the tiiime to discoooo!!!" ????

and yes, i might be a "lefty, artsy desi" but not only were the lyrics, dancing, costumes, and theme in bad taste...the song was just lame. so yeah, go ahead and call me a lefty artsy girl with no sense of humor...but i know lame music when i hear it. and that, my friends, was lame.

43 · razib said

additionally, he suggested that there was prominent dark skinned actress, bipasha basu. i didn't know what she looked like, so when i looked her up i was shocked that she's probably around the middle range of south asian skin tones, if not somewhat lighter than average, and *that* was dark skinned???

Have to put in a word for Nandita Das. She's quite dark-skinned, and very beautiful too, and no contadiction there. And yes, she does completely different kinds of roles from the average Bollywood star, but some of that is Bollywood too (and Kollywood). Of course, with make-up, lighting, and angles - you can change the perceived (and actual) 'reflectance' spectrum, and so, when the role demands it, I'm sure she goes in for that stuff too. But at least she hasn't been pre-selected, or 'selected out' for her skin color, and that's something worth mentioning.

It is 'chance maare', not 'jaan se maare'. That is desi slang for 'hitting on'. And this is so ridiculously over-the-top, for god's sake, how can anyone take this seriously. I mean I know Indians are poco-ignorant, self-loathers, wagerah, wagerah, but just look at the clothes, lyrics, dance steps, the whole combination is so obviously a parody.

And since the song is in simulated Bhojpuri it should be transliterated with "dilwa" (a affectionate form of dil) instead of "dil woh".

And since the song is in simulated Bhojpuri it should be transliterated with "dilwa" (a affectionate form of dil) instead of "dil woh".

You can hear the same construction in this Dilip Kumar song: 'nain lad jaihe to manwa ma kasak hoive kari'.

The best bhojpuri song has got to be "Saawan ka mahina, pavan kare sore..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSqwfhYAoxs

Here are the lyrics from rediff's music review of the album:

Not just content with Hinglish, a dash of Bhojpuri is merged in as well to concoct flaky lyrics like: White white face dekhein, dil maa beating fast, sasura chance mere re. Unbelievable as it sounds, the full-on ditty actually grows on the listener, owing to the genuine camaraderie between its singers -- Udit Narayan, Sunidhi and Sukhwinder. The sporting troika plays along with the silliness and urges you to get on board.

Here's Vishal Daldani, one half of the composer duo Vishal-Shekhar that put this together, on this song:

3.Dil Dance Maare Re: What a song! The energy of all the autorickshaws in Bombay flows thru this one! Why is it the way it is? You'll have to ask Victor. There's a place in the film, and I can't tell you where without giving it away, that the three characters played by Akshay, Saif and Kareena find themselves in a bhojpuri item song in Englisss. The song is based on popular Bhojpuri folk melody, with utterly deranged lyrics, that I myself have had the honour and pleasure of writing. We put the mukhda together in Shekhar's car, en-route to YRF Studios in Andheri. Victor heard it and loved it, so pretty much there and then, based on the situation, we put the antara together. The film had, by now, revealed to us it's direction in terms of sound, and so we just needed to amp it up for this one. Once again Abhijit, and Warren brought their superb musical minds to the song, and gave it a totally new dimension. While we were working on the song, I came up with the second verse. I actually had an option ready for the "tohra dil ka theater maa....." line, just in case everyone flipped out when they heard it! Luckily, they loved it! Sukhwinder came in and totally nailed it, so did Udit and Sunidhi, as you can plainly hear. I hope you all think of how much fun we had putting this song together when you hear it! 'Cuz I can feel it in every "Jaalim Beat!"

Link: http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/blogs/vishaldadlani/index.html

By the way Vishal-Shekhar are great fans of RD Burman (Hare Krishna Hare Ram, Mehbooba (Sholay), etc). They've done songs like this before where you know they are trying to recreate the madness of RD Burman.

amardeep, why dont you understand, that half of bollywood is a spoof on the other half? this is the first half.

the reality is that indians think that whiter skinned people are attractive and you can't force dark skinned people down the throats of the movie going audiences aside from as villains or buffoons.

Which is why the lyrics to this song sound like the shameless truth rather than a "spoof" or "sarcasm". So much self-loathing among desis.

6 · PS said

When I have seen old bollywood movies, that actors seemed darker

Yeah, especially in those black and white films.

50 · ylrsings said

i might be a "lefty, artsy desi" but not only were the lyrics, dancing, costumes, and theme in bad taste...the song was just lame. so yeah, go ahead and call me a lefty artsy girl with no sense of humor...

You are a lefty artsy girl with no sense of humor. I am a lefty artsy dude and I think this $hi+ is effin BRILLIANT. Why did it take 26 for someone to even suggest this might be satire? (Thank you anjum--seriously, even though I'm a lefty Amreekan desi.)

11 · chicagodesidiva said

It's hard to sift between the ones I find ridiculous (ie this) and ones I like

Learn to like the ridiculous and life becomes a lot more fun. (Next week's lesson, laughing at one's Selves.)

Amardeep said

Still, am I the only one to find the song/video at once deeply embarrassing and oddly catchy?

That's one of the things that makes it so wonderfully complex--that it implicates the viewer even as it mocks its own ridiculosity--all tied up with a catchy tune you can't get out of your head. I'd like to see the whole film now, see if they pushed it far enough or stopped just shy of really making a meaningful statement in favor of commercial viability.

7 · Meena said

I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words.

Exoticize much? Plus what LandBeyond7Zs said @ 24.

Harbeer - why not exoticize. It is a foreign language to me. Plus mixing of Hindi and English messes up the flow of the song, as someone mentioned above.

I think you've taken these lyrics a tad too seriously, dude. Relax. In the context of the movie (the biggest 'hyped' flop in Bollywood in recent times), the three protagonists are trying to escape the cops and so, in order to pass off as 'Firangis' from a movie set, they don this kinda warpaint. And the song is meant to be a spoof, using two extremes (in linguistic terms) that India is exposed to - the 'foreigners' and the 'dehaatis'.

24 · LandBeyond7Zs said

7 · Meena said

I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words

Hindi has been influenced at birth by Farsi and at growth by Urdu. Hindi brahminised from Sanskrit. Why not get corrupted at its old age by English?

You got it exactly inside out. Let me rephrase it and straighten out that Gyanendra Pandey influenced absurdity for you.

Urdu has been influenced at birth by Farsi and in growth by Sanskrit. Urdu is anchored in India by Sanskrit. Why not get enriched at its old age by English?

Take any Urdu sentence, replace the Farsi (or the rare Arabi word) with a Sanskrit equivalent, and hey presto, you have Hindi. But my friend the professor of Oriental languages in Madras Univ, will tell you that Muslims must use as much Arabic in their Urdu rather than Farsi, because then they might as well use Sanskrit, because you see Farsi and Sanskrit are both India-Iranian or Iranic-Indian languages!

And how convenient blaming Bollywood for its whiteness obsession and winking at the soft bigotry of the rationalist Dravidians in the South. The fair skin business is a fetish for all the Tamizh obsessed parties in the TN. The DMK that created the MGR brand made it a point to cast MGR with fair skinned actresses, a habit MGR continued when he broke free of his friend Karunanidhi. Not a single film produced by the DMK or its sympathisers has ever featured a dark skinned hero or heroine. Even in Neerum Neruppum - one of the last films MGR did before he left the DMK - a twin story (remade from the Rajendra Kumar-Hema starrer Gora Aur Kala) the good twin is fair while the moody and violent MGR twin is dark! Even Bharatiraja who supposedly revolutionised movie making (as MSS Pandian would have it) did not risk taking on a dark looking hero or heroine ever (excepting for the offbeat KallukkuL Eeram). He went with Kamalahasan. Even now "color comedy" of the basest and crudest kind is a staple in Tamizh movies. There are any number of Senthil-Goundamani comedy routines with an occasional Vadivelu thrown in for good measure, that the masses lap up - social justice be damned. As for colour prejudice and off-colour jokes, TN has much to be ashamed of.

Rajanikant's success is his own, and marks a clean break in Indian casting.

louiecypher and Amitabh, LOL!! relax dudes and chill out! No one has to identify with hindi cinema. Its not a religion, its entertainment industry. You are taking it way to seriously. Its not like you have to identify with it the way you identify with your parents!!
Bollywood does dish out some stupid films now and then but also some gems nowadays. This is actually the best time for indian cinema. Some really good stories, with new filmakers, directors are being appreciated which never stood a chance a decade ago.
You guys need to chill out and get a dose of optimism.

Have to put in a word for Nandita Das. She's quite dark-skinned, and very beautiful too, and no contadiction there. And yes, she does completely different kinds of roles from the average Bollywood star, but some of that is Bollywood too (and Kollywood). Of course, with make-up, lighting, and angles - you can change the perceived (and actual) 'reflectance' spectrum, and so, when the role demands it, I'm sure she goes in for that stuff too. But at least she hasn't been pre-selected, or 'selected out' for her skin color, and that's something worth mentioning.

Nandita Das - yes, she's dark (I'd say the average color that most desis fall into) and you can see that prominently in that awful movie with Ash Rai acting as an abused wife in Provoked;

15 · Heeraadhi hero said

You conveniently left out the part where the girl says "I dont like dark guys".

And then there is a post-facto rationalization where she says she only did that because she wanted an excuse to get rid of him. The real reason why she didn't want to marry him was... wait for it, wait for it... MISMATCHED HOROSCOPES! Such modern types we all are, yaar.

Wow, watching that Rajnikant video makes me want to see the film "Sivaji," if I can get ahold of a subtitled version...

Subtitles are superfluous for the sooperstaar experience. A good classic Rajnikant film from (relatively) recent times is Baasha or Annamalai, btw.

Hmm, what a weak excuse. So, Eva Mendes wouldn't hook up with me solely because she's a Pisces and I'm an Aries? Righhhhhhht.

BTW, I am not against mixing English words with Indian languages in their songs as long as the accent is consistent. WHat I am talking about are some songs where they break into English with a weirdass accent that is neither Indian nor American. Take that Rajnikanth video. Sounds like some deaf guy singing.

Oh if you look at the Telugu clip of Kamalhassan I put up in comment#20, you will see that South Indian heroines had no problem finding high profile roles regardless of skin color. I think South India has become as bad or probably even worse than North India because they recruit non South Indians pretty much for their color and no other reason in recent years. I do think South India accepts darker heroes more willingly than North India. But they are just as bad with the heroines.

I am not sure if anyone in Bombay is trying to define anyone’s identity. It is entertainment for Indians and the choice to watch it or not is ultimately yours. I don’t think most Bollywood films should be dissected for deeper meanings such as identity definitions.

All this talk about skin color. As if on this side of the sea it is so better. Please give me the names of top actresses in Hollywood who don't have a blue or green eye.

68 · Pravin said

Oh if you look at the Telugu clip of Kamalhassan I put up in comment#20, you will see that South Indian heroines had no problem finding high profile roles regardless of skin color.

That's Maro Charitra the K.Balachander Telugu original remade in Hindi again by KB as Ek Duje Ke Liye. But we are talking of K.Balachander not any director. That's a director who has taken bigger risks than any popular movie maker. He has never made a movie starring either MGR or Sivaji. Sarita starred in the original, and from the song you can see she does some pretty nifty dancing - especially jumping down those steps. Can't think of any heroine wanting to take such risks. Rati Agnihotri acted in the Hindi remake. Sarita went on to star in a few more unglamourous roles, notably Thaneer Thaneer, the story of a drought stricken village that fights a corrupt politco-bureaucratic establishment. In that movie Sarita walked a few miles everyday to fetch water for the location unit!

Not to forget V. Shantaram's Parchaiyan in which the heroine plays a dark complexioned woman who marries the youngest son of an idealistic a multi-cultural family. Yash Chopra for all the themes he has explored - romantic love in every possible context - has never explored the colour divide.

All this talk about skin color. As if on this side of the sea it is so better. Please give me the names of top actresses in Hollywood who don't have a blue or green eye.

I understand what you are saying. Indian actors are said to be lighter than the average skin color of their desi counterparts. Light skin is considered more attractive in India.

In the US I don't think there are many natural blondes, yet highlighting or making your hair blonder is all the norm. I really don't think there's one real blonde actor in Hollywood - that doesn't rely on highlighting.

I think the preference for light skin can be benign but I feel that preference goes along (for some people) with racial hierarchy, even though INdians are not different "races". I have to say I still meet north indians who are my friends, who think south indians are a different race - I just don't get it. I mean what do they teach about Indian history in the schools these days in India?

I'm from Kerala and so many members of my family are light skinned or dark skinned. I never grew up with a concept that skin color designated race. But I have met northies who subtly suggest they are from a different race and read vapid discussion on the dark dravidian and light skinned aryan. So with such talk and myths floating around, I can't help but feel such songs as this feed into the light skin, racial hierarchy.

that's what I think is missing from comparing india's bollywood starlets with the fact that there are so few real blondes in the world, but half of hollywood is made up of blonde hair and tall and fit (when the average american never has that size or height or hair color);

Bollywood serves the 40% of Indian Population who are illeterate. We do not need to dwelve more into the intellectual aspects of Bollywood. This NYT article is the best I have seen on the audience quinarian(sorry!) of Bollywood.

Hey Landbeyond7ZS, you are right, bollywood is for the dumb (The same NYT quoted Mukesh Ambani is a big fan of bollywood movies)I know many american people who claim they have become very intelligent after watching juno and knocked up and oh also wedding crashers:)

69 · umber desi said

I don't think most Bollywood films should be dissected for deeper meanings such as identity definitions.

Whether or not they are intentionally creating, depicting, upholding, or questioning social norms, the fact remains that art/narrative/culture does influence a society's values. Whether high art or popular art, it's all fair game for close analysis.

To clarify thsi is not Hindi-English...or hinglish its really Bhojpuri-English or should we call it Bhojlish?

people are getting worked up without understanding context. I remember being a bit shocked and uncomfortable in the theater when the song started off with "white white face". But once you watch the whole song, and if are familiar with bollywood fare, you realized that those words are not in any way racial - its just a straight translation of gora i.e. fair-skinned. The english-hindi blended lyrics of this song would be typical of what someone with limited english-speaking ability, but a person fascinated with the language, and aspires to use it as a statement of 'cool' would do. Its classic hinglish. it is 100% in line with the character singing the damn song. The problem is that 'white' and 'black' are loaded words in this country and sets people down the wrong path.

btw, Akshay Kumar & Anil Kapoor did a fabulous job in this movie, which i found very entertaining, paisa-vasool, except for the cartoonishly OTT violence towards the end. 2 thumbs up from a former mumbaikar, inspite of the movie flopping and getting as much love from the critics as 'the happening'.

Harbeer,

I agree with what you are saying, but I don't agree with the statements that claims Bollywood is somehow trying to define identities for ABDs.

top actresses in Hollywood who don't have a blue or green eye.

Whom does a girl have to sleep with to get a part around here?

Hey Landbeyond7ZS, you are right, bollywood is for the dumb (The same NYT quoted Mukesh Ambani is a big fan of bollywood movies)I know many american people who claim they have become very intelligent after watching juno and knocked up and oh also wedding crashers:)

The average Hollywood comedy is so crappy I stopped watching ages ago. The buddy movies like White Chicks or Chuck and Larry or The Love Guru: don't even get me started. The premise itself is so stupid I have no clue who watches them. And the rom-coms: I was forced to watched 'How To Lose a Guy...' a few days ago, and I am still suffering from PTSD.

It's satire, you idiots. Nothing to get worked up about.
D'oh!

and just yday, my bf and i were trying to forget the embarrassing-catchy song from Kismat Connection ...are these types of songs becoming a requirement for bollywood flicks? ay papi!

Methinks (many of) the ABDs doth protest too much! more obsessed with fairness than DBDs? Why, I wonder?!! True, most Indians back home consider fair is more beautiful. But, I doubt very much whether the fairness Indian Indians aspire to is the pale, pinkish European colour. By my beauty standards, formed growing up in India, Salma Hayek/Penelope Cruz is more beautiful than, say, Nicole Kidman, and I would think, many DBD readers of Sepia Mutiny might agree too.

By my beauty standards, formed growing up in India, Salma Hayek/Penelope Cruz is more beautiful than, say, Nicole Kidman, and I would think, many DBD readers of Sepia Mutiny might agree too.

I don't know about how many feel that way, but speaking for myself (DBD here), I'd entirely agree with that. However, that does not necessarily prove your point, since my standards for attractiveness go much deeper than just the skin. Yes, sir! Much deeper. Salma Hayek's appreciably bustier than Nicole Kidman, and she's got absolutely delectable cleavage. Can't get deeper than that.

But for a counterpoint, try asking a bunch of people to rank Salma Hayek and Halle Berry.

more obsessed with fairness than DBDs?

Gross and baseless generalization!! Now where did my King magazine go?

Sivaji & other Rajni gems are available with subtitles here . The graphics to create that dreadful look in "Style" apparently took a year, & the song is satire on the fair skin obsession I believe.

# 84 Rm, you can't hide behind your copy of the King Magazine, we know your true colors, at least Ping Pong is honest about his deep standards for beauty ;-)Seriously, meant to say more obsessed with 'the fairness issue' (with 'fairness', was a mistake)

And Ping Pong, Salma Hayek-Halle Berry ranking would be more about race than pigmentation of the skin.

If you want to see good desi music that will blow away most of today's Bollywood crap then watch this...it's awesome... and at least in this clip the attractive, fair European women are actually doing something important along with looking good.

But for a counterpoint, try asking a bunch of people to rank Salma Hayek and Halle Berry.

you guys are out of touch with india if you think it's all about fairness. there are lots of successful actors and actresses who are dark skinned such as bipasha basu, priyanka chopra, abhishek bachchan. even rekha wasn't fair and nor is shahrukh khan. i'm getting bored with your knee jerk reactions.

there are dark skinned very successful models as well such as lakshmi menon and once while i was visiting india, i was looking through a magazine and i saw a black model in an ad for a famous jewellery company called tanishq.

The message of Bollywood is that native indians are too dark and ugly act as heros and heroines in the movies. Most of the posters here seem to think that there is nothing unhealthy at all about this message.

The search for bollywood worthy talent involves hunting down indians who look middle-eastern; half-breeds who look middle-eastern; and more and more today, europeans who look like they could pass for middle-easterners. In other words the ideal bollywood look is the muslim west asian look. This may be a legacy of the 800 years of muslim rule in India. Not surprising when you consider that Bollywood was dominated by muslims in its early years, who set the pattern. Even today the top male matinee idols are mostly muslim.

there are lots of successful actors and actresses who are dark skinned such as bipasha basu, priyanka chopra, abhishek bachchan. even rekha wasn't fair and nor is shahrukh khan.

This oft repeated argument by bollywood-brainwashed drones is a good example of how deeply Bollywood has screwed up the indian mind. The people you mentioned are actually light-skinned by native indian standards. They are dark only by the muslim west asian standards of Bollywood. You all dont even realize how silly and deluded you as indians look calling these people dark :)

By my beauty standards, formed growing up in India, Salma Hayek/Penelope Cruz is more beautiful than, say, Nicole Kidman, and I would think, many DBD readers of Sepia Mutiny might agree too.

Of course, because these two women are representative of the middle-eastern look glamorized by Bollywood for decades. One of them Salma is actually of arab ancestry.

Seeing how ga-ga indian men went over the blond american cheerleaders in the recent 20/20 cricket league debut shows that these beauty standards set by Bollywood can change with exposure. Its likely that the chinese and eurasian look will one day also be glamorized in India. Numerous white westerners already have a fetish for oriental women.

all i heard was tashan was a major waste of time.
the song seems to solidify that feeling for me...

92 · Bollyhood said

92 · Bollyhood on July 11, 2008 09:28 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
The search for bollywood worthy talent involves hunting down indians who look middle-eastern; half-breeds who look middle-eastern; and more and more today, europeans who look like they could pass for middle-easterners. In other words the ideal bollywood look is the muslim west asian look. This may be a legacy of the 800 years of muslim rule in India. Not surprising when you consider that Bollywood was dominated by muslims in its early years, who set the pattern. Even today the top male matinee idols are mostly muslim.

This is a remarkable point, actually. However, we must ask ourselves why Hollywood, which is dominated by Jewish directors, didn't depict the heroes/heroines as having Jewish features.

But your point is well-takent. Frankly, I'm tired of all the European-mixed (i.e. Katrina Kaif), Afghani (SRK, Aamir Khan, Saif Ali Khan, Salman Khan), and otherwise freakishly light-skinned Indians (Ash Rai and everyone else) on the screen. I'm dyeing to see swarthy, moustachioed men, and swarthy queens like Nandita Das there.

25 · Samir said

25 · Samir on July 10, 2008 05:53 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Is it just me, or has bollywood gotten "whiter" as the times have passed - say compared to our parents generation some 35 years ago?

Yup, It has. Mixed - Race parents. Katrina Kaif (1/2 British), Dino Morea (1/2 Itailan), Celina Jaitley (1/2 Afghan), Tulip Joshi (1/2 Lebanesse - Armenian)

Also, our politicians and Pakistani politicians have been getting more and more white. Observe Rajiv Gandhi who was half Zoroastrian. Observe his kids who are half Italian, and believe me, they will become senior politicians soon.

Regarding the Pakis: Even Benazir Bhutto was half Kurdish, and they've had an ethnically Iranian as their prime minister in the past. His surname was Khan, and he was descendant of the "Kwizibash(?)" (Turkish for Red Hats).

Also, this trend is found in our beauty queens as well. I'm embarrassed that half of them are half white, and never half East Asians or Africans.

72 · PS said

I think the preference for light skin can be benign but I feel that preference goes along (for some people) with racial hierarchy, even though INdians are not different "races". I have to say I still meet north indians who are my friends, who think south indians are a different race - I just don't get it. I mean what do they teach about Indian history in the schools these days in India?

I'm from Kerala and so many members of my family are light skinned or dark skinned. I never grew up with a concept that skin color designated race. But I have met northies who subtly suggest they are from a different race and read vapid discussion on the dark dravidian and light skinned aryan. So with such talk and myths floating around, I can't help but feel such songs as this feed into the light skin, racial hierarchy.

that's what I think is missing from comparing india's bollywood starlets with the fact that there are so few real blondes in the world, but half of hollywood is made up of blonde hair and tall and fit (when the average american never has that size or height or hair color);

Linguistically speaking, South Indians are totally different from Northern Indians. N. Indians speak an Indo-European language (along with Sinhalese, Bangladeshi, and Nepali). South Indians speak a Dravidian language.

I think that this is what trips up most N. Indians who view themselves to be in the same race as Swedes, and S. Indians to be of the "Indian race."

I actually had a Kashmiri Hindu tell me in a very very polite way that he's a mix of European and Indian races, and his Punjabi Hindu friend was parroting his speach. They said that a South Indian like myself were "pure Indians".

i'm kashmiri hindu and i am really embarrased when other north indians think they are somehow half european. please don't think that we're all that stupid. i don't think myself different to south indians. i think some people of my parents' generation used to say that they were derived from europe but now nobody says that anymore.

Not sure where this is going. We Indians are mixed and for lack of a better term there is an "Iranian" contribution to the DNA. Where it gets ridiculous is when people feel the need to reject the much larger genetic contribution from "people X" (I use this term because it doesn't make sense to use linguistic terms like Dravidian to describe "race") to feel superior. Fair skinned green eyed Punjabis and upper class Turko-Afghan Muslims are part of the Indian fabric and clearly they have a place in Indian cinema. The issue is that this phenotype dominates to the near exclusion of all others. And I find it laughable that Nandita Das is referred to as dark. She might be dark as far as the nightclub/gated community set in Delhi go but she is towards the lighter end of the population as a whole. She would look like a (sexy) marshmallow standing next to me. Film studios spoon feed the public, they are ready for more varied forms of beauty.

Comments #98&100

An important landmark in the history of ancient india is the advent of vedic civilization associated with the coming of Aryans(nomadic pastroal people inhabited the region of Central Asia).The Aryans started a great migration toward europe and Asia. A section of this migratory population reached the frontiers of the sub-continent of India around 200BC and entered the country in search of pastures. Initially they met with strong opposition from the well organised urban communities inhabiting India(largely known as Dravidians)at that time.However,the newcomers were able to break this resistence and settle down in Punjab.From Punjab they moved eastwards and spread all over the Gangetic Valley.It seems that the area of this civilisation extended from Afghan to the base of the gangetic valley.gradually Aryans allied themselves with the local people and a historic synthesis was worked out between the Aryans and the original inhabitants. The later vedic period which extends up to 600BC saw the expansion of Aryan power into the interior of Northern India and the migration of the original inhaitants(dravidians)towards Southern India.However,there is no unanimity among the historians on this

Spake Civilizations
the later vedic period which extends up to 600BC saw the expansion of Aryan power into the interior of Northern India and the migration of the original inhaitants(dravidians)towards Southern India.However,there is no unanimity among the historians on this
So right there is a lot of controversy about this but it served Northies to patronize Southies for years UNTIL the IT boom happened mostly in the Dravidian south (so sad forsooth) and now about 98% of India's poor are crowded in the BIMARU states of Bihar, MP, Rajasthan and UP. What ho my dear former Aryans? I know I sound bitter but I live in Bangalore where the whiff of northern superiority (based on white face, bad manners and godawful angrezi)is like the loo.I do know some great guys from the North but they are in a minority.

everyone ancestors have come from somewhere else. people living in present day england came many years back from denmark and germany and before that the vikings and romans had invaded. the original inhabitants and culture were pretty much wiped out.

what really bugs me is people wearing blue, green and grey contacts when their eyes are brown.

Haven't you guys seen Rang De Basanti? That was an amazing bollywood film. What about other awesome films like Taare Zameen Par, Swades and Dil Se? I don't understand the bollywood bashing here. You guys really put the c in abcd.

ABCDs like to get together and laugh at Indian things. That's okay, we think of ABCDs as shallow, spoilt, arrogant and self-absorbed too.

I meant to say that we laugh at you guys too. No worries.

nothing catchy about this. just deeply embarrassing, and reeks of racism/sexism. right up there with the unilever ads.

additionally, he suggested that there was prominent dark skinned actress, bipasha basu. i didn't know what she looked like, so when i looked her up i was shocked that she's probably around the middle range of south asian skin tones, if not somewhat lighter than average, and *that* was dark skinned???

I can understand an ignorant commerical, even though it made me cringe, but it really bothered me that Bipasha Basu was fine with playing the "dark girl". A.) She's not that dark B.) She's hot and is implying that her only flaw is her dark skin C.) She puts herself out there as someone who's trying to break the traditional woman's role or the idea of a woman should look like. I saw this commercial in India - it was actually a longer verson, but this was the closest I could find to it. The commercial's idea was similar to the Escalade commercials where the women are driving and talking about how women are strong and need a car as awesome as they are and not just a fufu girly car with lots of cupholders. She's also a new face of Reebok and she's trying to come off as strong and independent etc. etc.

Maybe she's just following the paycheck. *sigh*.

Nandita Das doesn't look 'dark' in the least to me - she's around as dark as I am, as well as many of my family members, and we're all planted firmly in the 'midtone' colour range. Frankly, I don't know any desi from my circle who tells their kids not to play in the sun, or discourages girls from being too sportive. I think it must be an ABD/UK thing. My mum tells me not to stay in the sun for too long, but that has more to do with the harmful effects of UV(of which many desis are blissfully unaware, in the belief that their melanin alone is enough protection), and I agree with her.

100 · louiecypher said

She would look like a (sexy) marshmallow standing next to me.

with pumpernickel, i think a nice aged camembert would do better. (and yes that is a positive comment--IMO: Das as runny cheese > Das as marshmallow)

Linguistically speaking, South Indians are totally different from Northern Indians. N. Indians speak an Indo-European language (along with Sinhalese, Bangladeshi, and Nepali). South Indians speak a Dravidian language.

I think that this is what trips up most N. Indians who view themselves to be in the same race as Swedes, and S. Indians to be of the "Indian race."

I actually had a Kashmiri Hindu tell me in a very very polite way that he's a mix of European and Indian races, and his Punjabi Hindu friend was parroting his speach. They said that a South Indian like myself were "pure Indians"

I understand the language divide, but dna results and reputed scientists have shown that there is no racial difference. So it's just strange to me that the thinking still persists. Indians come in all colors, including light skin, and doesn't rely on some Iranian ancestery nonsesense. I just wonder what they teach IN INDIA about such nonsense as the aryan invasion and such? What do they teach IN INDIA?

I thought the myth of the 'Aryan race' was debunked long ago, but clearly the idea persists among the general population(desi at least).

Not sure where this is going. We Indians are mixed and for lack of a better term there is an "Iranian" contribution to the DNA."

Is there any mixing with Iranians? - not much from what I've read.

I find it funny that some of this mixing is attributed to the "aryan invasion" which happened thousands of years ago.

Where it gets ridiculous is when people feel the need to reject the much larger genetic contribution from "people X" (I use this term because it doesn't make sense to use linguistic terms like Dravidian to describe "race") to feel superior.

I agree.

Fair skinned green eyed Punjabis and upper class Turko-Afghan Muslims are part of the Indian fabric and clearly they have a place in Indian cinema. The issue is that this phenotype dominates to the near exclusion of all others. And I find it laug