You want cringeworthier? Watch RajniKanth in Sivaji do some dance where he acts like a white guy AND a black guy in dreads.

(?)You want cringeworthier? Watch RajniKanth in Sivaji do some dance where he acts like a white guy AND a black guy in dreads.

link? can people post more stuff like this, this is really bizarre.... (i don't watch bollywood, so this is exoticization is all exotic to me).

link? can people post more stuff like this, this is really bizarre.... (i don't watch bollywood, so this is exoticization is all exotic to me).

Classy all the way.

Wow, watching that Rajnikant video makes me want to see the film "Sivaji," if I can get ahold of a subtitled version...

The chorus is Dil Dance Maare all throughout, even the places you have Jaan se maare

disgusting - bollywood has become more bizarre. Is it just me, or has bollywood gotten "whiter" as the times have passed - say compared to our parents generation some 35 years ago? When I have seen old bollywood movies, that actors seemed darker and more about Indians in India. What is going on. Between Shah Rukh Khan and his fair and lovely commercial and now crap like this.

And no, I don't like the song.

Does anyone else find the mingling of Hindi and English super tacky? I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words.

Does anyone else find the mingling of Hindi and English super tacky? I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words.

Yes, I don't like the mixing in bollywood songs. Like the song "pretty women" in one of SRK's movies - don't like the mixing of the two languages and yeah, I don't know Hindi either but sounds so nice on its own in bollywood melodies

5 · Prashant said

The chorus is Dil Dance Maare all throughout, even the places you have Jaan se maare

I thought it was "dil chance maare" and then "dil dance maare"

Too many Govinda songs?

5 · Prashant said

The chorus is Dil Dance Maare all throughout, even the places you have Jaan se maare

I thought it was "dil chance maare" and then "dil dance maare"

Too many Govinda songs?

Ai ya. It took me half the video to figure out that the blonde was not Caucasian, but instead Kareena Kapoor.

Sigh. Mom keeps asking me why I don't go watch Bollywood films. It's hard to sift between the ones I find ridiculous (ie this) and ones I like (ie Company or Mere Baap Pele Aap, although the latter was a bit silly at times).

What? You're not "happy in your heart" when you see a white white face?

1 · Pravin said

You want cringeworthier? Watch RajniKanth in Sivaji do some dance where he acts like a white guy AND a black guy in dreads.

You conveniently left out the part where the girl says "I dont like dark guys". Obviously that wouldnt help you with arguing, I suppose!

But when MIA uses some folk songs and beats from around the world, it is hip and cool? because they are , different? maybe to get a break from the usual?

You conveniently left out the part where the girl says "I dont like dark guys".

And then there is a post-facto rationalization where she says she only did that because she wanted an excuse to get rid of him. The real reason why she didn't want to marry him was... wait for it, wait for it... MISMATCHED HOROSCOPES! Such modern types we all are, yaar.

Wow, watching that Rajnikant video makes me want to see the film "Sivaji," if I can get ahold of a subtitled version...

Subtitles are superfluous for the sooperstaar experience. A good classic Rajnikant film from (relatively) recent times is Baasha or Annamalai, btw.

Not to over-analyze or over-interpret the comingling of languages in the song, but to put that which Amardeep explained in further context....the other character in this film (who's not in the video) is mafia don Anil Kapoor, and the big joke about him in Tashan is that he wants to speak English "like George Bush" (which is the pretext why Bebo's character goes and cons Saif into becoming Anil's tutor), and through the whole film, Anil's character speaks this stew of heavily accented Hinglish (with many old filmi references).

The East-West, Hindi-English divide are also represented in the Akshay & Saif characters. Akshay is a devout aarti-performing, Hindi-speaking Kanpur guy (also the birthplace of the film's director, Vijay Krishna Acharya), whereas Saif is the Westernized Bombay guy who works at a call centre by day and tutors English classes by night, in between chasing women (Akshay's character, Bachchan, is of the "ick, girls give you cooties" school of thought). When the film opens, the two guys are in a red car swerving down a road in Ladakh fighting over which music to listen to; Akshay keeps tuning in some old-time filmi music station, then Saif flips the dial to rock.

My girlfriends and I were appalled when we first saw the video in the weeks before the film's release.

To Amardeep's question, I couldn't get it out of head and had it in heavy rotation on my iPod for a few weeks after seeing the film, though lately I've gravitated to Hard Kaur's Talli and two Jaane Tu songs....

Still, am I the only one to find the song/video at once deeply embarrassing and oddly catchy?

I haven't seen the movie, but I thought it was supposed to be intentionally flashy and over the top, so I find the pidgin used in the song quite inventive. I also generally found Tashan's soundtrack catchy.

What is going on. Between Shah Rukh Khan and his fair and lovely commercial and now crap like this.

There's more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJhSogkI284

Anyone remember the

Fair and Lovely

I don't like the way they mix English with INdian languages in their songs for the most part, only because they seem to do it in a very amateurish manner. It messes up the flow while the English itself sounds kind of like "deaf speak".

However, sometimes, I guess it is warranted as in this old Telugu movie where the Kamalhassan character has to sing in english as he doesn't know Telugu.

Second what Filmiholic said. The running joke in the film is that some of the characters are aspiring to be white as in they would like to speak like George Bush hence the butchering of Hindi and English. I see maybe one bollywood flick every two years so I can't comment about the state of the movies but The villain was in Tashan was hilarious. I was somewhat bored with the standard fight sequences and songs in the movie, but every time the villain was on screen in his mangled Hinglish it was quite funny and in a way a pretty interesting parody of certain Indian perceptions of the west.

About the Ponds White Beauty cream.

I would just like to point out that the product is also advertised outside of South Asia as well with Oriental actors playing the same roles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8vCOpzyIyM

Amardeep:

Wow, watching that Rajnikant video makes me want to see the film "Sivaji," if I can get ahold of a subtitled version...

Wasn't that covered on SM already?

The white-bodypart vs black-bodypart paradigm has been around in different guises for years. There was a Hindi song from the mid-1990s whose lyrics went "gore gore mukhde, dil kale kale".

Or the Tamil song from the movie Shakthi whose lyrics went:

unga tholu mattum veLLai
vandhadichadhellam koLLAi
kruppaga irundhaalum
enga uLLam ella veLLAIveLLai

Which, loosely translated, means "Your skin alone is white but you looted us. We may be dark but our insides are white".

Of course, I cannot read too much into that song. The rest of its lyrics went:

gumma gumma nee kulichu paaru summa
idhu elizabeth rani vandhu kuLichu pona kamma
gumma gumma idhu reel illai amma
andha rani mudhugu thechadhu en paatiyoda amma

(If you don't understand enough Tamil to follow that, count it as a blessing).

I eagerly await the day when I hear lyrics like "Your pancreas may be red, but your adrenal glands are green. On the other hand, my thyroid is always purple".

7 · Meena said

I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words

Hindi has been influenced at birth by Farsi and at growth by Urdu. Hindi brahminised from Sanskrit. Why not get corrupted at its old age by English?

Is it just me, or has bollywood gotten "whiter" as the times have passed - say compared to our parents generation some 35 years ago?

Yup, It has. Mixed - Race parents. Katrina Kaif (1/2 British), Dino Morea (1/2 Itailan), Celina Jaitley (1/2 Afghan), Tulip Joshi (1/2 Lebanesse - Armenian)

the song is meant to be sarcastic. you americans don't get sarcasm and on top of that you arty lefty desis take things way too seriously and earnestly. (i'm writing from london and i'm desi too).

*Oriental* in the contemporary American definition.

Anyway I should've said (non South)Asian/Pacific Islanders playing the same roles.

One thing I did find refreshing in this dance number was that the firangis in the background were attractively clothed (that is, color-coordinated and well-fitting) and attractive themselves. So often, the non-Indians in the club or party scenes, they look out of place and their clothes are either sloppy, out of style and ill-fitting, or (especially on the women) they're almost skimpy enough to make Lil Kim blush. (Interestingly, in this film, thanks to the heroine's much-touted Size Zero figure, she's the one in the bikini and Daisy Dukes.)

On the subject of white skin, if you see the full version of this song, after about 1 minute or so in, when Saif has shed his silver blazer, take a look at the ever-increasing sunburn on his arms and chest. (Courtesy of the altitude, strong sun and scant cloud cover, I guess.) As they make their way through the video, he looks increasingly, painfully lobster-y.

gumma gumma nee kulichu paaru summa idhu elizabeth rani vandhu kuLichu pona kamma gumma gumma idhu reel illai amma andha rani mudhugu thechadhu en paatiyoda amma

This sounds like Kavignar Vaali at his lyrical finest.

*Oriental* in the contemporary American definition.

in the USA most people are conditioned now to presume that 'oriental' refers to objects; so for people you should say 'east asian.'

I dunno, but I see a new wedding floor dance song for masala couples everywhere! ...Well, except for masala couples that are desi-black or desi-latino/hispanic or desi-asian. You get the point.

I think Bollywood songs are getting from bad to worse. This affliction is partly from MTV channels which remixes old songs like this - Kajra Mohabbat Wala

32 · Bridget Jones said

I think Bollywood songs are getting from bad to worse. This affliction is partly from MTV channels which remixes old songs like this - Kajra Mohabbat Wala

Btw here is the original one - Kajra Mohobbat Wala

Anjum: I hope you are right, to think otherwise would be pretty depressing. I am kind of right wing as far as the SM political spectrum goes and am on the record as hating all fine arts grads but you can see how we might jump to conclusions when Bollywood actors peddle fairness creams, when entertainment companies run by starlets bar African-American cheerleaders from the cricket field, and when some other starlet coos braindead stuff like "my makeup person can even make Africans look good".

the song is meant to be sarcastic. you americans don't get sarcasm and on top of that you arty lefty desis take things way too seriously and earnestly. (i'm writing from london and i'm desi too).

Yup, It has. Mixed - Race parents. Katrina Kaif (1/2 British), Dino Morea (1/2 Itailan), Celina Jaitley (1/2 Afghan), Tulip Joshi (1/2 Lebanesse - Armenian)

So in the past there weren't so many mixed stars? Does anyone know?

But when MIA uses some folk songs and beats from around the world, it is hip and cool? because they are , different? maybe to get a break from the usual?

Hmm...what do you mean by this? When MIA sings in Tamil and English in 10 dollar, it sounds good to me. I think it just sounds cheesy in bollywood movies and I've heard some east asian songs and sounds terrible.

Seems to me I am the only one who liked the song - I like it slightly less after watching the video now, but that is not the point. What seems to have escaped everyone's attention is that most of the bollywood music today, with a few notable exceptions, is purely crap.

Until recently, Poetry was language at its best - the standards have more than dipped and often enough what passes for lyrics not only lacks completely in meaning(fullness), but in some cases the overzealous but ignorant lyricist actually manages to get it so wrong that the meaning becomes a comic mystery - I am reminded of 'furqat-e-gham dikhla jaa" where gham-e-furqat is juxtaposed.

This song mixes the two languages on purpose - the context already explained in the above comments, and yet every line retains meaningfulness and for this the lyricist deserves praise. It is a very intelligent piece of work.

Gives new meaning to idiotic. These people have way too much time and money.

I am kind of right wing as far as the SM political spectrum goes and am on the record as hating all fine arts grads

It is always amusing when the all-about-individualism-righties believe in collectivism only in tarring lefties as oppressive elites. I guess Marxism lives on. Maybe that is what Fukuyama meant by the end of history.

Still, am I the only one to find the song/video at once deeply embarrassing

I avoid that embarrassment by refusing to identify with Bollywood. It's not my culture, it's just a highly cheapened, sentimentalized, commercialized, watered-down version of various Indian, Western, and eccentric inspirations. Which is not to say I never watch...I do sometimes...and occasionally they come out with a gem...I like some of the songs...but overall I don't let a bunch of people in Mumbai decide what my identity is all about. I will admit that the movies do say something about India though.

oh come, stop your cringing. where's your sense of humor. The lyrics deal with the serious issue of race and colorism: whitee faces, darkee faces, reddee sunburns. Who can dance? It's all there people.
Lyrics and delivery are not exactly Tagore or Winston Churchill, but if George Bush speak is the inspiration, it'll do just fine.

Re: language and B'wood: there's much less Urdu than before, and not even much understanding of Urdu anymore when it comes to dialogs, and increasingly lyrics (unless you're talking about the oldsters who are still working). The lingua franca of the set is still largely Hindi, but English is becoming more common among the actors, directors, producers etc. As for the costumes, the haphazard effects is because there's still not much pre-planning in filmmaking. When it's time to shoot a dance sequence, it's a mad rush to get something, anything to throw on the dancers. There are dance costume designers hired to do more co-ordinated costumes for films, but there are only one or two of them. And yes, make-up men do consider it a professional requirement to make their heroes and heroines look "fair" which they feel is the same thing as "beautiful."

And yes, make-up men do consider it a professional requirement to make their heroes and heroines look "fair" which they feel is the same thing as "beautiful."

i've told this anecdote before, but i'll tell it again. i was talking to a leftist indian friend of mine about the fact that actors in bollywood look much more like southern europeans than they do the average indian (perhaps not the average chiptvana brahmin, but the average indian, including most people in the diaspora). his response was pretty straightforward, he simply asked that i complain only when american movies start casting ugly or non-attractive people. so the same principle with bollywood, since very light skin is the necessary precondition for good looks of course they'll all be light skinned. my friend is probably darker skinned than the average indian, so it wasn't superiority speaking here. additionally, he understood why this bias is offensive, but he just held that movies are entertainment and the reality is that indians think that whiter skinned people are attractive and you can't force dark skinned people down the throats of the movie going audiences aside from as villains or buffoons. additionally, he suggested that there was prominent dark skinned actress, bipasha basu. i didn't know what she looked like, so when i looked her up i was shocked that she's probably around the middle range of south asian skin tones, if not somewhat lighter than average, and *that* was dark skinned???

I avoid that embarrassment by refusing to identify with Bollywood.

Me too. It's funny how you can be born in the US, speak your parent's language and be passionate about what's going on in the desh but reject popular Indian cinema and you are "confused". I can see how it can be comfort food for the homesick but come on...

On the plus side I think they are great at cinematography, technical aspects of film making. And no doubt there are great directors & screenwriters, they just need to be freed from the shackles of the investors who have a low estimation of the sophistication of the Indian film going public.

Its "chance" maare re.

Gosh Amardeep! your ABD slip is showing.

And its not "dil woh beating fast", its "dil-wa beating fast" (its a dialect of hindi, where words 'sasura' etc come from. I think its bhojpuri)

And to "maaro a chance" means to try to pataoo a girl.

Its "chance" maare re.

Gosh Amardeep! your ABD slip is showing.

Hey, plenty of people on this thread have been hearing it differently; I think some of them must be DBDs. My wife said "chance" too, but I decided just to go ahead and dhappo the lyrics from here. I thought that would be the safest thing, since I myself was unsure how to hear the lyrics.

(As a side note, it's interesting that such mindless lyrics have been getting so much close attention!)

26 · anjum said

the song is meant to be sarcastic.

Exactly. Its made in humor, with the dehati hindi and western costumes.
And hindi songs have had english lyrics right from the time when Amitabh sang "my name is Anthony Gonzalves...". Gosh that was such a hit song.

Chill out. No need to diss Bollywood just coz it makes you cringe about your heritage. Your mom's indian-ness prolly makes you cringe too.
remember, "we are like this only".

And its not "dil woh beating fast", its "dil-wa beating fast" (its a dialect of hindi, where words 'sasura' etc come from. I think its bhojpuri)

Udit Narayan mentioned that in a TV interview when he was on tour in the USa month or so back, that it's a remake of a Bhojpuri folk song.

I know the whole fair n Lovely/white is right thing is played out on this forum. But, this thread actually made me look for the SRK Fair and Handsome commercial...

I bet you all did not know that the product contains "American double-strength peptides and herbs".

That's good science the cosmetics industry can definitely stand behind.

that was kind of scary. no honestly. scary. i'm hoping it was a sick joke and tomorrow i'll wake up and it will all be gone.
what ever happened to "it's the tiiime to discoooo!!!" ????

and yes, i might be a "lefty, artsy desi" but not only were the lyrics, dancing, costumes, and theme in bad taste...the song was just lame. so yeah, go ahead and call me a lefty artsy girl with no sense of humor...but i know lame music when i hear it. and that, my friends, was lame.

43 · razib said

additionally, he suggested that there was prominent dark skinned actress, bipasha basu. i didn't know what she looked like, so when i looked her up i was shocked that she's probably around the middle range of south asian skin tones, if not somewhat lighter than average, and *that* was dark skinned???

Have to put in a word for Nandita Das. She's quite dark-skinned, and very beautiful too, and no contadiction there. And yes, she does completely different kinds of roles from the average Bollywood star, but some of that is Bollywood too (and Kollywood). Of course, with make-up, lighting, and angles - you can change the perceived (and actual) 'reflectance' spectrum, and so, when the role demands it, I'm sure she goes in for that stuff too. But at least she hasn't been pre-selected, or 'selected out' for her skin color, and that's something worth mentioning.

It is 'chance maare', not 'jaan se maare'. That is desi slang for 'hitting on'. And this is so ridiculously over-the-top, for god's sake, how can anyone take this seriously. I mean I know Indians are poco-ignorant, self-loathers, wagerah, wagerah, but just look at the clothes, lyrics, dance steps, the whole combination is so obviously a parody.

And since the song is in simulated Bhojpuri it should be transliterated with "dilwa" (a affectionate form of dil) instead of "dil woh".

And since the song is in simulated Bhojpuri it should be transliterated with "dilwa" (a affectionate form of dil) instead of "dil woh".

You can hear the same construction in this Dilip Kumar song: 'nain lad jaihe to manwa ma kasak hoive kari'.

The best bhojpuri song has got to be "Saawan ka mahina, pavan kare sore..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSqwfhYAoxs

Here are the lyrics from rediff's music review of the album:

Not just content with Hinglish, a dash of Bhojpuri is merged in as well to concoct flaky lyrics like: White white face dekhein, dil maa beating fast, sasura chance mere re. Unbelievable as it sounds, the full-on ditty actually grows on the listener, owing to the genuine camaraderie between its singers -- Udit Narayan, Sunidhi and Sukhwinder. The sporting troika plays along with the silliness and urges you to get on board.

Here's Vishal Daldani, one half of the composer duo Vishal-Shekhar that put this together, on this song:

3.Dil Dance Maare Re: What a song! The energy of all the autorickshaws in Bombay flows thru this one! Why is it the way it is? You'll have to ask Victor. There's a place in the film, and I can't tell you where without giving it away, that the three characters played by Akshay, Saif and Kareena find themselves in a bhojpuri item song in Englisss. The song is based on popular Bhojpuri folk melody, with utterly deranged lyrics, that I myself have had the honour and pleasure of writing. We put the mukhda together in Shekhar's car, en-route to YRF Studios in Andheri. Victor heard it and loved it, so pretty much there and then, based on the situation, we put the antara together. The film had, by now, revealed to us it's direction in terms of sound, and so we just needed to amp it up for this one. Once again Abhijit, and Warren brought their superb musical minds to the song, and gave it a totally new dimension. While we were working on the song, I came up with the second verse. I actually had an option ready for the "tohra dil ka theater maa....." line, just in case everyone flipped out when they heard it! Luckily, they loved it! Sukhwinder came in and totally nailed it, so did Udit and Sunidhi, as you can plainly hear. I hope you all think of how much fun we had putting this song together when you hear it! 'Cuz I can feel it in every "Jaalim Beat!"

Link: http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/blogs/vishaldadlani/index.html

By the way Vishal-Shekhar are great fans of RD Burman (Hare Krishna Hare Ram, Mehbooba (Sholay), etc). They've done songs like this before where you know they are trying to recreate the madness of RD Burman.

amardeep, why dont you understand, that half of bollywood is a spoof on the other half? this is the first half.

the reality is that indians think that whiter skinned people are attractive and you can't force dark skinned people down the throats of the movie going audiences aside from as villains or buffoons.

Which is why the lyrics to this song sound like the shameless truth rather than a "spoof" or "sarcasm". So much self-loathing among desis.

6 · PS said

When I have seen old bollywood movies, that actors seemed darker

Yeah, especially in those black and white films.

50 · ylrsings said

i might be a "lefty, artsy desi" but not only were the lyrics, dancing, costumes, and theme in bad taste...the song was just lame. so yeah, go ahead and call me a lefty artsy girl with no sense of humor...

You are a lefty artsy girl with no sense of humor. I am a lefty artsy dude and I think this $hi+ is effin BRILLIANT. Why did it take 26 for someone to even suggest this might be satire? (Thank you anjum--seriously, even though I'm a lefty Amreekan desi.)

11 · chicagodesidiva said

It's hard to sift between the ones I find ridiculous (ie this) and ones I like

Learn to like the ridiculous and life becomes a lot more fun. (Next week's lesson, laughing at one's Selves.)

Amardeep said

Still, am I the only one to find the song/video at once deeply embarrassing and oddly catchy?

That's one of the things that makes it so wonderfully complex--that it implicates the viewer even as it mocks its own ridiculosity--all tied up with a catchy tune you can't get out of your head. I'd like to see the whole film now, see if they pushed it far enough or stopped just shy of really making a meaningful statement in favor of commercial viability.

7 · Meena said

I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words.

Exoticize much? Plus what LandBeyond7Zs said @ 24.

Harbeer - why not exoticize. It is a foreign language to me. Plus mixing of Hindi and English messes up the flow of the song, as someone mentioned above.

I think you've taken these lyrics a tad too seriously, dude. Relax. In the context of the movie (the biggest 'hyped' flop in Bollywood in recent times), the three protagonists are trying to escape the cops and so, in order to pass off as 'Firangis' from a movie set, they don this kinda warpaint. And the song is meant to be a spoof, using two extremes (in linguistic terms) that India is exposed to - the 'foreigners' and the 'dehaatis'.

24 · LandBeyond7Zs said

7 · Meena said

I don't know Hindi, but it sounds like a beautiful language to me. Such a pity to corrupt it with English words

Hindi has been influenced at birth by Farsi and at growth by Urdu. Hindi brahminised from Sanskrit. Why not get corrupted at its old age by English?

You got it exactly inside out. Let me rephrase it and straighten out that Gyanendra Pandey influenced absurdity for you.

Urdu has been influenced at birth by Farsi and in growth by Sanskrit. Urdu is anchored in India by Sanskrit. Why not get enriched at its old age by English?

Take any Urdu sentence, replace the Farsi (or the rare Arabi word) with a Sanskrit equivalent, and hey presto, you have Hindi. But my friend the professor of Oriental languages in Madras Univ, will tell you that Muslims must use as much Arabic in their Urdu rather than Farsi, because then they might as well use Sanskrit, because you see Farsi and Sanskrit are both India-Iranian or Iranic-Indian languages!

And how convenient blaming Bollywood for its whiteness obsession and winking at the soft bigotry of the rationalist Dravidians in the South. The fair skin business is a fetish for all the Tamizh obsessed parties in the TN. The DMK that created the MGR brand made it a point to cast MGR with fair skinned actresses, a habit MGR continued when he broke free of his friend Karunanidhi. Not a single film produced by the DMK or its sympathisers has ever featured a dark skinned hero or heroine. Even in Neerum Neruppum - one of the last films MGR did before he left the DMK - a twin story (remade from the Rajendra Kumar-Hema starrer Gora Aur Kala) the good twin is fair while the moody and violent MGR twin is dark! Even Bharatiraja who supposedly revolutionised movie making (as MSS Pandian would have it) did not risk taking on a dark looking hero or heroine ever (excepting for the offbeat KallukkuL Eeram). He went with Kamalahasan. Even now "color comedy" of the basest and crudest kind is a staple in Tamizh movies. There are any number of Senthil-Goundamani comedy routines with an occasional Vadivelu thrown in for good measure, that the masses lap up - social justice be damned. As for colour prejudice and off-colour jokes, TN has much to be ashamed of.

Rajanikant's success is his own, and marks a clean break in Indian casting.

louiecypher and Amitabh, LOL!! relax dudes and chill out! No one has to identify with hindi cinema. Its not a religion, its entertainment industry. You are taking it way to seriously. Its not like you have to identify with it the way you identify with your parents!!
Bollywood does dish out some stupid films now and then but also some gems nowadays. This is actually the best time for indian cinema. Some really good stories, with new filmakers, directors are being appreciated which never stood a chance a decade ago.
You guys need to chill out and get a dose of optimism.

Have to put in a word for Nandita Das. She's quite dark-skinned, and very beautiful too, and no contadiction there. And yes, she does completely different kinds of roles from the average Bollywood star, but some of that is Bollywood too (and Kollywood). Of course, with make-up, lighting, and angles - you can change the perceived (and actual) 'reflectance' spectrum, and so, when the role demands it, I'm sure she goes in for that stuff too. But at least she hasn't been pre-selected, or 'selected out' for her skin color, and that's something worth mentioning.

Nandita Das - yes, she's dark (I'd say the average color that most desis fall into) and you can see that prominently in that awful movie with Ash Rai acting as an abused wife in Provoked;

15 · Heeraadhi hero said

You conveniently left out the part where the girl says "I dont like dark guys".

And then there is a post-facto rationalization where she says she only did that because she wanted an excuse to get rid of him. The real reason why she didn't want to marry him was... wait for it, wait for it... MISMATCHED HOROSCOPES! Such modern types we all are, yaar.

Wow, watching that Rajnikant video makes me want to see the film "Sivaji," if I can get ahold of a subtitled version...

Subtitles are superfluous for the sooperstaar experience. A good classic Rajnikant film from (relatively) recent times is Baasha or Annamalai, btw.

Hmm, what a weak excuse. So, Eva Mendes wouldn't hook up with me solely because she's a Pisces and I'm an Aries? Righhhhhhht.

BTW, I am not against mixing English words with Indian languages in their songs as long as the accent is consistent. WHat I am talking about are some songs where they break into English with a weirdass accent that is neither Indian nor American. Take that Rajnikanth video. Sounds like some deaf guy singing.

Oh if you look at the Telugu clip of Kamalhassan I put up in comment#20, you will see that South Indian heroines had no problem finding high profile roles regardless of skin color. I think South India has become as bad or probably even worse than North India because they recruit non South Indians pretty much for their color and no other reason in recent years. I do think South India accepts darker heroes more willingly than North India. But they are just as bad with the heroines.

I am not sure if anyone in Bombay is trying to define anyone’s identity. It is entertainment for Indians and the choice to watch it or not is ultimately yours. I don’t think most Bollywood films should be dissected for deeper meanings such as identity definitions.

All this talk about skin color. As if on this side of the sea it is so better. Please give me the names of top actresses in Hollywood who don't have a blue or green eye.

68 · Pravin said

Oh if you look at the Telugu clip of Kamalhassan I put up in comment#20, you will see that South Indian heroines had no problem finding high profile roles regardless of skin color.

That's Maro Charitra the K.Balachander Telugu original remade in Hindi again by KB as Ek Duje Ke Liye. But we are talking of K.Balachander not any director. That's a director who has taken bigger risks than any popular movie maker. He has never made a movie starring either MGR or Sivaji. Sarita starred in the original, and from the song you can see she does some pretty nifty dancing - especially jumping down those steps. Can't think of any heroine wanting to take such risks. Rati Agnihotri acted in the Hindi remake. Sarita went on to star in a few more unglamourous roles, notably Thaneer Thaneer, the story of a drought stricken village that fights a corrupt politco-bureaucratic establishment. In that movie Sarita walked a few miles everyday to fetch water for the location unit!

Not to forget V. Shantaram's Parchaiyan in which the heroine plays a dark complexioned woman who marries the youngest son of an idealistic a multi-cultural family. Yash Chopra for all the themes he has explored - romantic love in every possible context - has never explored the colour divide.

All this talk about skin color. As if on this side of the sea it is so better. Please give me the names of top actresses in Hollywood who don't have a blue or green eye.

I understand what you are saying. Indian actors are said to be lighter than the average skin color of their desi counterparts. Light skin is considered more attractive in India.

In the US I don't think there are many natural blondes, yet highlighting or making your hair blonder is all the norm. I really don't think there's one real blonde actor in Hollywood - that doesn't rely on highlighting.

I think the preference for light skin can be benign but I feel that preference goes along (for some people) with racial hierarchy, even though INdians are not different "races". I have to say I still meet north indians who are my friends, who think south indians are a different race - I just don't get it. I mean what do they teach about Indian history in the schools these days in India?

I'm from Kerala and so many members of my family are light skinned or dark skinned. I never grew up with a concept that skin color designated race. But I have met northies who subtly suggest they are from a different race and read vapid discussion on the dark dravidian and light skinned aryan. So with such talk and myths floating around, I can't help but feel such songs as this feed into the light skin, racial hierarchy.

that's what I think is missing from comparing india's bollywood starlets with the fact that there are so few real blondes in the world, but half of hollywood is made up of blonde hair and tall and fit (when the average american never has that size or height or hair color);

Bollywood serves the 40% of Indian Population who are illeterate. We do not need to dwelve more into the intellectual aspects of Bollywood. This NYT article is the best I have seen on the audience quinarian(sorry!) of Bollywood.

Hey Landbeyond7ZS, you are right, bollywood is for the dumb (The same NYT quoted Mukesh Ambani is a big fan of bollywood movies)I know many american people who claim they have become very intelligent after watching juno and knocked up and oh also wedding crashers:)

69 · umber desi said

I don't think most Bollywood films should be dissected for deeper meanings such as identity definitions.

Whether or not they are intentionally creating, depicting, upholding, or questioning social norms, the fact remains that art/narrative/culture does influence a society's values. Whether high art or popular art, it's all fair game for close analysis.

To clarify thsi is not Hindi-English...or hinglish its really Bhojpuri-English or should we call it Bhojlish?

people are getting worked up without understanding context. I remember being a bit shocked and uncomfortable in the theater when the song started off with "white white face". But once you watch the whole song, and if are familiar with bollywood fare, you realized that those words are not in any way racial - its just a straight translation of gora i.e. fair-skinned. The english-hindi blended lyrics of this song would be typical of what someone with limited english-speaking ability, but a person fascinated with the language, and aspires to use it as a statement of 'cool' would do. Its classic hinglish. it is 100% in line with the character singing the damn song. The problem is that 'white' and 'black' are loaded words in this country and sets people down the wrong path.

btw, Akshay Kumar & Anil Kapoor did a fabulous job in this movie, which i found very entertaining, paisa-vasool, except for the cartoonishly OTT violence towards the end. 2 thumbs up from a former mumbaikar, inspite of the movie flopping and getting as much love from the critics as 'the happening'.

Harbeer,

I agree with what you are saying, but I don't agree with the statements that claims Bollywood is somehow trying to define identities for ABDs.

top actresses in Hollywood who don't have a blue or green eye.

Whom does a girl have to sleep with to get a part around here?

Hey Landbeyond7ZS, you are right, bollywood is for the dumb (The same NYT quoted Mukesh Ambani is a big fan of bollywood movies)I know many american people who claim they have become very intelligent after watching juno and knocked up and oh also wedding crashers:)

The average Hollywood comedy is so crappy I stopped watching ages ago. The buddy movies like White Chicks or Chuck and Larry or The Love Guru: don't even get me started. The premise itself is so stupid I have no clue who watches them. And the rom-coms: I was forced to watched 'How To Lose a Guy...' a few days ago, and I am still suffering from PTSD.

It's satire, you idiots. Nothing to get worked up about.
D'oh!

and just yday, my bf and i were trying to forget the embarrassing-catchy song from Kismat Connection ...are these types of songs becoming a requirement for bollywood flicks? ay papi!

Methinks (many of) the ABDs doth protest too much! more obsessed with fairness than DBDs? Why, I wonder?!! True, most Indians back home consider fair is more beautiful. But, I doubt very much whether the fairness Indian Indians aspire to is the pale, pinkish European colour. By my beauty standards, formed growing up in India, Salma Hayek/Penelope Cruz is more beautiful than, say, Nicole Kidman, and I would think, many DBD readers of Sepia Mutiny might agree too.

By my beauty standards, formed growing up in India, Salma Hayek/Penelope Cruz is more beautiful than, say, Nicole Kidman, and I would think, many DBD readers of Sepia Mutiny might agree too.

I don't know about how many feel that way, but speaking for myself (DBD here), I'd entirely agree with that. However, that does not necessarily prove your point, since my standards for attractiveness go much deeper than just the skin. Yes, sir! Much deeper. Salma Hayek's appreciably bustier than Nicole Kidman, and she's got absolutely delectable cleavage. Can't get deeper than that.

But for a counterpoint, try asking a bunch of people to rank Salma Hayek and Halle Berry.

more obsessed with fairness than DBDs?

Gross and baseless generalization!! Now where did my King magazine go?

Sivaji & other Rajni gems are available with subtitles here . The graphics to create that dreadful look in "Style" apparently took a year, & the song is satire on the fair skin obsession I believe.

# 84 Rm, you can't hide behind your copy of the King Magazine, we know your true colors, at least Ping Pong is honest about his deep standards for beauty ;-)Seriously, meant to say more obsessed with 'the fairness issue' (with 'fairness', was a mistake)

And Ping Pong, Salma Hayek-Halle Berry ranking would be more about race than pigmentation of the skin.

If you want to see good desi music that will blow away most of today's Bollywood crap then watch this...it's awesome... and at least in this clip the attractive, fair European women are actually doing something important along with looking good.

But for a counterpoint, try asking a bunch of people to rank Salma Hayek and Halle Berry.

you guys are out of touch with india if you think it's all about fairness. there are lots of successful actors and actresses who are dark skinned such as bipasha basu, priyanka chopra, abhishek bachchan. even rekha wasn't fair and nor is shahrukh khan. i'm getting bored with your knee jerk reactions.

there are dark skinned very successful models as well such as lakshmi menon and once while i was visiting india, i was looking through a magazine and i saw a black model in an ad for a famous jewellery company called tanishq.

The message of Bollywood is that native indians are too dark and ugly act as heros and heroines in the movies. Most of the posters here seem to think that there is nothing unhealthy at all about this message.

The search for bollywood worthy talent involves hunting down indians who look middle-eastern; half-breeds who look middle-eastern; and more and more today, europeans who look like they could pass for middle-easterners. In other words the ideal bollywood look is the muslim west asian look. This may be a legacy of the 800 years of muslim rule in India. Not surprising when you consider that Bollywood was dominated by muslims in its early years, who set the pattern. Even today the top male matinee idols are mostly muslim.

there are lots of successful actors and actresses who are dark skinned such as bipasha basu, priyanka chopra, abhishek bachchan. even rekha wasn't fair and nor is shahrukh khan.

This oft repeated argument by bollywood-brainwashed drones is a good example of how deeply Bollywood has screwed up the indian mind. The people you mentioned are actually light-skinned by native indian standards. They are dark only by the muslim west asian standards of Bollywood. You all dont even realize how silly and deluded you as indians look calling these people dark :)

By my beauty standards, formed growing up in India, Salma Hayek/Penelope Cruz is more beautiful than, say, Nicole Kidman, and I would think, many DBD readers of Sepia Mutiny might agree too.

Of course, because these two women are representative of the middle-eastern look glamorized by Bollywood for decades. One of them Salma is actually of arab ancestry.

Seeing how ga-ga indian men went over the blond american cheerleaders in the recent 20/20 cricket league debut shows that these beauty standards set by Bollywood can change with exposure. Its likely that the chinese and eurasian look will one day also be glamorized in India. Numerous white westerners already have a fetish for oriental women.

all i heard was tashan was a major waste of time.
the song seems to solidify that feeling for me...

92 · Bollyhood said

92 · Bollyhood on July 11, 2008 09:28 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
The search for bollywood worthy talent involves hunting down indians who look middle-eastern; half-breeds who look middle-eastern; and more and more today, europeans who look like they could pass for middle-easterners. In other words the ideal bollywood look is the muslim west asian look. This may be a legacy of the 800 years of muslim rule in India. Not surprising when you consider that Bollywood was dominated by muslims in its early years, who set the pattern. Even today the top male matinee idols are mostly muslim.

This is a remarkable point, actually. However, we must ask ourselves why Hollywood, which is dominated by Jewish directors, didn't depict the heroes/heroines as having Jewish features.

But your point is well-takent. Frankly, I'm tired of all the European-mixed (i.e. Katrina Kaif), Afghani (SRK, Aamir Khan, Saif Ali Khan, Salman Khan), and otherwise freakishly light-skinned Indians (Ash Rai and everyone else) on the screen. I'm dyeing to see swarthy, moustachioed men, and swarthy queens like Nandita Das there.

25 · Samir said

25 · Samir on July 10, 2008 05:53 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Is it just me, or has bollywood gotten "whiter" as the times have passed - say compared to our parents generation some 35 years ago?

Yup, It has. Mixed - Race parents. Katrina Kaif (1/2 British), Dino Morea (1/2 Itailan), Celina Jaitley (1/2 Afghan), Tulip Joshi (1/2 Lebanesse - Armenian)

Also, our politicians and Pakistani politicians have been getting more and more white. Observe Rajiv Gandhi who was half Zoroastrian. Observe his kids who are half Italian, and believe me, they will become senior politicians soon.

Regarding the Pakis: Even Benazir Bhutto was half Kurdish, and they've had an ethnically Iranian as their prime minister in the past. His surname was Khan, and he was descendant of the "Kwizibash(?)" (Turkish for Red Hats).

Also, this trend is found in our beauty queens as well. I'm embarrassed that half of them are half white, and never half East Asians or Africans.

72 · PS said

I think the preference for light skin can be benign but I feel that preference goes along (for some people) with racial hierarchy, even though INdians are not different "races". I have to say I still meet north indians who are my friends, who think south indians are a different race - I just don't get it. I mean what do they teach about Indian history in the schools these days in India?

I'm from Kerala and so many members of my family are light skinned or dark skinned. I never grew up with a concept that skin color designated race. But I have met northies who subtly suggest they are from a different race and read vapid discussion on the dark dravidian and light skinned aryan. So with such talk and myths floating around, I can't help but feel such songs as this feed into the light skin, racial hierarchy.

that's what I think is missing from comparing india's bollywood starlets with the fact that there are so few real blondes in the world, but half of hollywood is made up of blonde hair and tall and fit (when the average american never has that size or height or hair color);

Linguistically speaking, South Indians are totally different from Northern Indians. N. Indians speak an Indo-European language (along with Sinhalese, Bangladeshi, and Nepali). South Indians speak a Dravidian language.

I think that this is what trips up most N. Indians who view themselves to be in the same race as Swedes, and S. Indians to be of the "Indian race."

I actually had a Kashmiri Hindu tell me in a very very polite way that he's a mix of European and Indian races, and his Punjabi Hindu friend was parroting his speach. They said that a South Indian like myself were "pure Indians".

i'm kashmiri hindu and i am really embarrased when other north indians think they are somehow half european. please don't think that we're all that stupid. i don't think myself different to south indians. i think some people of my parents' generation used to say that they were derived from europe but now nobody says that anymore.

Not sure where this is going. We Indians are mixed and for lack of a better term there is an "Iranian" contribution to the DNA. Where it gets ridiculous is when people feel the need to reject the much larger genetic contribution from "people X" (I use this term because it doesn't make sense to use linguistic terms like Dravidian to describe "race") to feel superior. Fair skinned green eyed Punjabis and upper class Turko-Afghan Muslims are part of the Indian fabric and clearly they have a place in Indian cinema. The issue is that this phenotype dominates to the near exclusion of all others. And I find it laughable that Nandita Das is referred to as dark. She might be dark as far as the nightclub/gated community set in Delhi go but she is towards the lighter end of the population as a whole. She would look like a (sexy) marshmallow standing next to me. Film studios spoon feed the public, they are ready for more varied forms of beauty.

Comments #98&100

An important landmark in the history of ancient india is the advent of vedic civilization associated with the coming of Aryans(nomadic pastroal people inhabited the region of Central Asia).The Aryans started a great migration toward europe and Asia. A section of this migratory population reached the frontiers of the sub-continent of India around 200BC and entered the country in search of pastures. Initially they met with strong opposition from the well organised urban communities inhabiting India(largely known as Dravidians)at that time.However,the newcomers were able to break this resistence and settle down in Punjab.From Punjab they moved eastwards and spread all over the Gangetic Valley.It seems that the area of this civilisation extended from Afghan to the base of the gangetic valley.gradually Aryans allied themselves with the local people and a historic synthesis was worked out between the Aryans and the original inhabitants. The later vedic period which extends up to 600BC saw the expansion of Aryan power into the interior of Northern India and the migration of the original inhaitants(dravidians)towards Southern India.However,there is no unanimity among the historians on this

Spake Civilizations
the later vedic period which extends up to 600BC saw the expansion of Aryan power into the interior of Northern India and the migration of the original inhaitants(dravidians)towards Southern India.However,there is no unanimity among the historians on this
So right there is a lot of controversy about this but it served Northies to patronize Southies for years UNTIL the IT boom happened mostly in the Dravidian south (so sad forsooth) and now about 98% of India's poor are crowded in the BIMARU states of Bihar, MP, Rajasthan and UP. What ho my dear former Aryans? I know I sound bitter but I live in Bangalore where the whiff of northern superiority (based on white face, bad manners and godawful angrezi)is like the loo.I do know some great guys from the North but they are in a minority.

everyone ancestors have come from somewhere else. people living in present day england came many years back from denmark and germany and before that the vikings and romans had invaded. the original inhabitants and culture were pretty much wiped out.

what really bugs me is people wearing blue, green and grey contacts when their eyes are brown.

Haven't you guys seen Rang De Basanti? That was an amazing bollywood film. What about other awesome films like Taare Zameen Par, Swades and Dil Se? I don't understand the bollywood bashing here. You guys really put the c in abcd.

ABCDs like to get together and laugh at Indian things. That's okay, we think of ABCDs as shallow, spoilt, arrogant and self-absorbed too.

I meant to say that we laugh at you guys too. No worries.

nothing catchy about this. just deeply embarrassing, and reeks of racism/sexism. right up there with the unilever ads.

additionally, he suggested that there was prominent dark skinned actress, bipasha basu. i didn't know what she looked like, so when i looked her up i was shocked that she's probably around the middle range of south asian skin tones, if not somewhat lighter than average, and *that* was dark skinned???

I can understand an ignorant commerical, even though it made me cringe, but it really bothered me that Bipasha Basu was fine with playing the "dark girl". A.) She's not that dark B.) She's hot and is implying that her only flaw is her dark skin C.) She puts herself out there as someone who's trying to break the traditional woman's role or the idea of a woman should look like. I saw this commercial in India - it was actually a longer verson, but this was the closest I could find to it. The commercial's idea was similar to the Escalade commercials where the women are driving and talking about how women are strong and need a car as awesome as they are and not just a fufu girly car with lots of cupholders. She's also a new face of Reebok and she's trying to come off as strong and independent etc. etc.

Maybe she's just following the paycheck. *sigh*.

Nandita Das doesn't look 'dark' in the least to me - she's around as dark as I am, as well as many of my family members, and we're all planted firmly in the 'midtone' colour range. Frankly, I don't know any desi from my circle who tells their kids not to play in the sun, or discourages girls from being too sportive. I think it must be an ABD/UK thing. My mum tells me not to stay in the sun for too long, but that has more to do with the harmful effects of UV(of which many desis are blissfully unaware, in the belief that their melanin alone is enough protection), and I agree with her.

100 · louiecypher said

She would look like a (sexy) marshmallow standing next to me.

with pumpernickel, i think a nice aged camembert would do better. (and yes that is a positive comment--IMO: Das as runny cheese > Das as marshmallow)

Linguistically speaking, South Indians are totally different from Northern Indians. N. Indians speak an Indo-European language (along with Sinhalese, Bangladeshi, and Nepali). South Indians speak a Dravidian language.

I think that this is what trips up most N. Indians who view themselves to be in the same race as Swedes, and S. Indians to be of the "Indian race."

I actually had a Kashmiri Hindu tell me in a very very polite way that he's a mix of European and Indian races, and his Punjabi Hindu friend was parroting his speach. They said that a South Indian like myself were "pure Indians"

I understand the language divide, but dna results and reputed scientists have shown that there is no racial difference. So it's just strange to me that the thinking still persists. Indians come in all colors, including light skin, and doesn't rely on some Iranian ancestery nonsesense. I just wonder what they teach IN INDIA about such nonsense as the aryan invasion and such? What do they teach IN INDIA?

I thought the myth of the 'Aryan race' was debunked long ago, but clearly the idea persists among the general population(desi at least).

Not sure where this is going. We Indians are mixed and for lack of a better term there is an "Iranian" contribution to the DNA."

Is there any mixing with Iranians? - not much from what I've read.

I find it funny that some of this mixing is attributed to the "aryan invasion" which happened thousands of years ago.

Where it gets ridiculous is when people feel the need to reject the much larger genetic contribution from "people X" (I use this term because it doesn't make sense to use linguistic terms like Dravidian to describe "race") to feel superior.

I agree.

Fair skinned green eyed Punjabis and upper class Turko-Afghan Muslims are part of the Indian fabric and clearly they have a place in Indian cinema. The issue is that this phenotype dominates to the near exclusion of all others. And I find it laughable that Nandita Das is referred to as dark. She might be dark as far as the nightclub/gated community set in Delhi go but she is towards the lighter end of the population as a whole. She would look like a (sexy) marshmallow standing next to me. Film studios spoon feed the public, they are ready for more varied forms of beauty.

I just wonder how much of bollywood is made up of punjabis or turko-afghan muslims in comparison to other indian groups? I don't think those groups have the hegemony - there's a lot of actors from all over. The thing is to me, they all show a phenotype - light skin - which is also Indian. In other words I don't think "light skin" is showing people who look "middle eastern" - they look like light-skinned Indians - I don't buy the whole aryan huge migration/invasion stories - from what I've read the population hasn't changed much for 1,000s of years and fair skin is "indigenous" to India.

When some of my friends make comments like - "Aishwarya Rai should be north indian" or "your mom looks north indian", etc. I just am confounded. And I know all N. Indians don't think like this...just weird to me that many INdians think like this - and I don't know if this is a majority or minority who think like this.

even in spanish movies (latin america) the actors do not look like the average person of their country
most mexicans do not remotely look like a gael garcia bernal or salma hayek (skin color wise included)!!!
with this regards the indian movie actors much more accurately portray what the average indian looks like
as far as the color of the skin, its a total no issue as hindi/indian film industry has actors, successful ones even, who are of skin colors ranging form dark to fair (just like the real india)
and regarding the actors with mixed races, they obviously consider themselves indian enough to act in bollywood movies so i dont think some of the previous comments are fair to judge them for that!!!
and btw tashan is pakka fun/timepass movie to watch

When some of my friends make comments like - "Aishwarya Rai should be north indian" or "your mom looks north indian", etc. I just am confounded. And I know all N. Indians don't think like this...just weird to me that many INdians think like this - and I don't know if this is a majority or minority who think like this

101 · Civilizations said

Comments #98&100

An important landmark in the history of ancient india is the advent of vedic civilization associated with the coming of Aryans(nomadic pastroal people inhabited the region of Central Asia).The Aryans started a great migration toward europe and Asia. A section of this migratory population reached the frontiers of the sub-continent of India around 200BC and entered the country in search of pastures. Initially they met with strong opposition from the well organised urban communities inhabiting India(largely known as Dravidians)at that time.However,the newcomers were able to break this resistence and settle down in Punjab.From Punjab they moved eastwards and spread all over the Gangetic Valley.It seems that the area of this civilisation extended from Afghan to the base of the gangetic valley.gradually Aryans allied themselves with the local people and a historic synthesis was worked out between the Aryans and the original inhabitants. The later vedic period which extends up to 600BC saw the expansion of Aryan power into the interior of Northern India and the migration of the original inhaitants(dravidians)towards Southern India.However,there is no unanimity among the historians on this

By history you mean historical fiction right? That's such pseudoscientific crock that even hardened Aryanites like Romila Thapar have given up on it.

Are we also going to do a post about a super hit tamil song Karupputhaan enakku pudicha kalaru(Black is the color I love) talking about reverse racism. You know talking about Bollywood and such.

even in spanish movies (latin america) the actors do not look like the average person of their country
most mexicans do not remotely look like a gael garcia bernal or salma hayek (skin color wise included)!!!
with this regards the indian movie actors much more accurately portray what the average indian looks like
as far as the color of the skin, its a total no issue as hindi/indian film industry has actors, successful ones even, who are of skin colors ranging form dark to fair (just like the real india)
and regarding the actors with mixed races, they obviously consider themselves indian enough to act in bollywood movies so i dont think some of the previous comments are fair to judge them for that!!!
and btw tashan is pakka fun/timepass movie to watch

Well I don't think is a nonissue in bollywood - in fact I think that's where color is most an issue.

And yes, I know - Latino movie stars look very different than your average latino; huge difference in the phenotype they show on tv to what people actually look like and I can say the same for black stars hollywood (though I think that is better). When we are talking about indian movies penchant for light skinned people, that doesn't mean that that preference isn't all over the world.

I"ve seen some of the comments say this "white white" song is just satire - well I hope so.

Wow, while I think there's a fair point to be made about fairness and all that, I also think this particular, very silly song is being taken out of context. As an earlier commenter remarked, in the film, the trio are trying to hide from the authorities during this dance number. Furthermore, there is a bit of humor before the song even begins- an Anglo director is talking about how he's making a 'real', serious movie about widows, which I took to be a subtle, or not-so-subtle, jab at Water. Saif Ali Khan gets to inform the director that there's always music in Indian movies. And later, the director mistakes Akshay Khanna's character (whose name is Bachchan Pande, I believe) for Amitabh Bachchan, which I also found humorous.

Maybe I'm just mental, but I found the whole thing tongue-in-cheek, and was amused by it.

Are we also going to do a post about a super hit tamil song Karupputhaan enakku pudicha kalaru(Black is the color I love) talking about reverse racism. You know talking about Bollywood and such.

Why? I will happily take the Dravidianist parties to task for their Brahmin/Hindu baiting, extension of affirmative action for landed communities. But you must have a warped sense of justice if you think the rare messages encouraging a positive self image for black skinned Indians, who are told implicitly/explicitly every day that they are inferior, are equivalent. I don't find Bollywood any worse than other Indian regional film industries when it comes to color preference. Which is why I generally use the term "Indian popular cinema" rather than Bollywood. Tamil film has a propensity for fair skinned and often N. Indian starlets (who don't speak a word of Tamil) that is equally/more reprehensible

Sil:

Karupputhaan enakku pudicha kalaru (Black is the color I love)

That translation is accurate, but I can't help thinking that the Tamil line sounds suspiciously close to "Karputhaan, ennai pudichu kaLaru" ("It's only virginity. Hold me and stir me"). I doubt that was an accident.

i don't think anyone means anything rude or offensive by saying "your mom must be north indian". they're probably just trying to place you. i'm north indian and i used to hang out with a bunch of good friends from kerala and when i met their friends and relatives they said, oh you must be from the north. they were just making conversation. you're reading too much into it and i don't know any gujaratis who say this sort of thing. i used to live in gujarat when i was very little and i've been back there hundreds of times, plus no one gujarati has said that to me in the US or UK.

Personally, I think the song is hilarious. Infact, I think it is a ridiculously clever parody (key word: ridiculous) of all the hindi songs nowadays that seem to be hell bent upon including poorly administered rap, which is usually trying very hard to pass as legitimate. The fact that "very happy in my heart, dil dance maare re" is a direct translation of "badi khushi hui dil mein, dil naaach rahaa hai" or something to that extent, only proves that no one is taking this song seriously. In fact, The day I heard the song, I kept repeating the first few lines and bursting into a fit of giggles after realizing what I was actually saying. Plus, if you're like me and have ever tried to translate a Hindi song into English, the results are usually...*ahem*...weird. (Hats off to the sites like "Bollywhat.com" for doing such a great job.)

And Amardeep, I agree with you, it IS a catchy song...I've admired the simplicity and relevance of Vishal-Shekhar's melodies since they first came out with "Aazamale" from Taxi No. 9211. Also, I'm really impressed with the music direction of this song, since its not everyday that Sunidhi Chauhan, Udit Narayan, and Sukhwinder Singh sound so toned down and folksy. I honestly think that this is best song from the movie BECAUSE it's so "traditional sounding" AND so clever at the same time. (The rest of the Tashan soundtrack is forgettable, to say the least.)

I'm actually a bit surprised that the thread has taken such a skin-color focused turn. The translation of "gora gora mukhda" to "white white face" didn't strike me as being a color bias...

I know I sound bitter but I live in Bangalore where the whiff of northern superiority (based on white face

You dont sound bitter, you sound loony. No one in his right mind would equate north indians with white faces. Ask the Shiv Sena of Mumbai what they think of the "black-assed" (words taken from forums debating this issue) "superior northern" bhaiyyas from U.P. and Bihar filling up their slums.

Ditto for gujaratis. A running joke in America is the amusing phenomenon of white-washed pictures of bollywood stars plastered all over Patel-run convenience stores presenting a stark contrast to the dark chocolate brown faces of the Apus behind the counter. Thank you, come again :)

most mexicans do not remotely look like a gael garcia bernal or salma hayek

Thats a pathetic defense of the bollywood message. Yes, Mexico and the Phillipines are also examples where the color and phenotype of their conquerors and colonizers is exalted while the look of the indigenous population is demeaned. Thats not healthy for them either. Its the servile and spineless mentality of defeated races that sees nothing odd in such humiliations. No surprise then that like India both these countries export servants to the developed world and rely heavily on remittances from them. The filipinos and the mexicans cop a superior attitude to indians, seeing them as lower on the color totem pole and coming from a poorer country, but towards whites they have the same inferiority complex. Filipinos being much closer to indians in the deepness of this sense of inferiority.

4 · Amardeep said

Wow, watching that Rajnikant video makes me want to see the film "Sivaji," if I can get ahold of a subtitled version...

A link without subtitles: 1, 2, 3.

98 · boston_mahesh said

I'm from Kerala and so many members of my family are light skinned or dark skinned. I never grew up with a concept that skin color designated race.

I am an egalitarian, who despise Indian race superiority talk(skin color, features - may be; intelligence- not a chance.). Human race did not have ample time to evolve to intellectual classes. However, there are assumed reasons for Kerala to have light and dark skinned people. Kerala had the country's best natural ports. Lot of merchants from Middle East,Southeast China were trading with locals. Kerala's history is recorded in travel notes of several travellers from middle east. The travel records of many Christian missionaries from 50-400 AD does not record the presence of Aryans or Brahmins in Kerala during that period. The latest agreements among historians is that Aryans(mostly Brahmins) reached Kerala around 800 AD. However there were recording of the presence of Jains, Jews in that period. The natives ( who can be called native?, there are no natives ) were dark skinned, the travellers have brought their light skin, the aryans brought the light skin too. There are not many written historical connections with south east chinese. But I have seen so many commonalities in custom, food, language etc. with Malays during my days in Malaysia. I do think there are some credence to the Malay-alam theory from my observations.

Thanks Jyotsna!

The travel records of many Christian missionaries from 50-400 AD does not record the presence of Aryans or Brahmins in Kerala during that period. The latest agreements among historians is that Aryans(mostly Brahmins) reached Kerala around 800 AD. However there were recording of the presence of Jains, Jews in that period. The natives ( who can be called native?, there are no natives ) were dark skinned, the travellers have brought their light skin, the aryans brought the light skin too.

The first europeans to visit Kerala were the portuguese, and their written records show that the "aryan" brahmins of Kerala were seen by the portuguese as blacks. I think the differences between indians are exaggerated by indians themselves and exploited by foreigners. It is like the Hutus and Tutsis of Rwanda who no one would mistake for anything other than africans; or like the germans and slavs who to outsiders look equally european. Yet in recent memory these african and european ethnicities waged genocide and war on each other based on "racism". Sheer stupidity.

Similarly there are differences between the northern and southern Han Chinese, that non-chinese may not notice right away, which can lead to harmful divisiveness among the chinese if they exaggerated these small differences. The need of the hour, of any hour, is unity. Desis from all corners of south asia generally have far more in common with each other genetically than with any other race. In any case a superior culture should be able to transcend race or any other biological difference.

129 · Bollyhood said

The first europeans to visit Kerala were the portuguese

That is correct. I did not say Europeans, I said Christian missionaries. When Portugese reached Kerala, there were Eastern Orthodox Christians all over Kerala. Portugese, in AD 1498, tried to convert the St. Thomas Christians to western Catholicism.

129 · Bollyhood said

It is like the Hutus and Tutsis of Rwanda who no one would mistake for anything other than africans

The difference between Hutus and Tutsises was promoted with the ancient pseudo science called Phrenology. This was promoted by Europeans and still referred by a section of afro leadership. That is a good story for Indians to learn from.

bollyhood

Thanx for the egregrious comment on my sanity. Takes one to know one huh? Yeah I think the debate about "dark" Northies and "white" Southies - the exceptions that prove the "rule" apparently- goes only to show how racist indians are. There is this great short story "Bharat changes his name" which plays on the theme of how the Sri Lankan narrator is outraged by Oz racism but is herself very racist towards E Asians. White white face wallahs regards indians as um "black"

I am almost embarrassed to say I like the song and find myself humming it at inappropriate moments. It's just a literal translation of our now standard Bollywood lyrics which are unimaginative and boring: gore gore gaal, kala kale baal and laal laal honth.Is it a parody of the Hinglish songs now in vogue? I thought it might be except that the other songs in Tashan have liberal doses of English "rap" like all the others that hurt one's ears these days. What I do like about the discussion is how it has used the song to explore our racism. Incidentally some of our most popular heroines in the not-so-distant past were brown (Kajol, Rekha) but were always referred to as "gori" in songs. There is "sanwli" but no Bollywood girl wants to be described that way I guess.Cept for one KK number.

The first europeans to visit Kerala were the portuguese, and their written records show that the "aryan" brahmins of Kerala were seen by the portuguese as blacks. I think the differences between indians are exaggerated by indians themselves and exploited by foreigners. It is like the Hutus and Tutsis of Rwanda who no one would mistake for anything other than africans; or like the germans and slavs who to outsiders look equally european. Yet in recent memory these african and european ethnicities waged genocide and war on each other based on "racism". Sheer stupidity.

I don't think there is a clear category of white skinned North indian Aryans and black skinned South Indians. Compare Mayawati and Jayalalitha or Kariya Munda and Karunanidhi. So another theory was introduced that Dalits all over India are dravidians and original inhabitants whereas fair skinned upper castes are conquering Aryans. Generally, I take all these "theories" with a pinch of salt. It is mostly designed to suit whoever is ruling at that point of time.

Aryan invasion theory was suitable for the Britishers at that time. So it was propagated. If BJP comes to power, it will be Aryans are natives. Right now, In Tamilnadu, the prevailing theory is after 40 years of "Dravidian rule", Dark skinned sudras are natives whereas white skinned Brahmins are Aryans and need to be driven out. :-)

If you are a dark colored Indian with talent, you seem to have a better chance in Hollywood than Bollywood. these days. Look at all the Indians who make it in the west - Naveen Andrews, the chick(Parminder NAgra?) from ER and Bend it like Beckham, TOny Kanal from No Doubt, the Indian guy in the Love Guru, Shyamalan(well he does cast himself in his movies), Sarita Chowdhury, the guy from Heroes, Mindy Kaling, and many more. Many of these people do not try to lighten themselves up for a western audience. I wonder if their talents would receive any recognition had they or their parents remained in India.

travel records of many Christian missionaries from 50-400 AD does not record the presence of Aryans or Brahmins in Kerala during that period. The latest agreements among historians is that Aryans(mostly Brahmins) reached Kerala around 800 AD. However there were recording of the presence of Jains, Jews in that period. The natives ( who can be called native?, there are no natives ) were dark skinned, the travellers have brought their light skin, the aryans brought the light skin too.

What? I wasn't aware that x-tian missionaries would say when landed in Kerala, "no aryans"...you seem to be comflating caste and aryan/nonaryan, which I'm not sure even what aryan means.

Can you give some support for these statements?

The answer is "No". Mindy Kaling would have gone to St. Stephen's instead of Dartmouth, been filtered out of the McKinsey-Delhi offc first rounds inspite of her 4.0 "for not being a good fit". She would have penned a clever comedy screenplay that didn't involve dancing pygmies that could not find a buyer. She wouldn't even make the casting couch lest she cast her inauspicious shadow on the rosy cheeked beauties queued outside. She would then head south to Chennai where, broken & despirited, should would accept the role of "Gundumma Rathiri Karuppanadevi", comedic foil to the heroine "Alahaanakundi Velamma".

If you are a dark colored Indian with talent, you seem to have a better chance in Hollywood than Bollywood. these days. Look at all the Indians who make it in the west - Naveen Andrews, the chick(Parminder NAgra?) from ER and Bend it like Beckham, TOny Kanal from No Doubt, the Indian guy in the Love Guru, Shyamalan(well he does cast himself in his movies), Sarita Chowdhury, the guy from Heroes, Mindy Kaling, and many more. Many of these people do not try to lighten themselves up for a western audience. I wonder if their talents would receive any recognition had they or their parents remained in India.

been filtered out of the McKinsey-Delhi offc first rounds inspite of her 4.0 "for not being a good fit"

Seriously?? Because of skin color/attractiveness? Does this really happen?

been filtered out of the McKinsey-Delhi offc first rounds inspite of her 4.0 "for not being a good fit" Seriously?? Because of skin color/attractiveness? Does this really happen?

No, I'm sure it doesn't. But most Indian & Asian employers ask you to attach a photo to your job application.....maybe alternative universe Kaling doesn't wear the right pantsuit or there are traces of last week's coconut oil in her hair.

The answer is "No". Mindy Kaling would have gone to St. Stephen's instead of Dartmouth, been filtered out of the McKinsey-Delhi offc first rounds inspite of her 4.0 "for not being a good fit". She would have penned a clever comedy screenplay that didn't involve dancing pygmies that could not find a buyer. She wouldn't even make the casting couch lest she cast her inauspicious shadow on the rosy cheeked beauties queued outside. She would then head south to Chennai where, broken & despirited, should would accept the role of "Gundumma Rathiri Karuppanadevi", comedic foil to the heroine "Alahaanakundi Velamma".

LOL! I guess some of this is tongue in cheek - hope this doesn't actually happen. I wonder if anyone in India has filed a lawsuit for being discriminated b/c you're too dark?

Now I haven't worked in India, but I would think, judging fromt he number of dark indians, that have excellent careers behind the scenes in the entertainment industry that she still would have been sucessful.

No, I'm sure it doesn't. But most Indian & Asian employers ask you to attach a photo to your job application.....maybe alternative universe Kaling doesn't wear the right pantsuit or there are traces of last week's coconut oil in her hair.

"The difference between Hutus and Tutsises was promoted with the ancient pseudo science called Phrenology. This was promoted by Europeans and still referred by a section of afro leadership. That is a good story for Indians to learn from."

Could be, but the Ethiopians and Somalis had been seeing themselves as different from "blacks" for many centuries, and Europeans had no presence there that any of them would have cared about. OTOH, Arabs and Turks had, though I don't know if you can blame it on them either. It may go back much further. Arab Muslims, however, do have a tendency to give a superior complex to those who become Muslim because they can then mix their blood with the of the Prophet, or that's how I understood it. There is a very old "difference" politics in the horn of Africa, and the Sahel, where blacks with Arab ancestry think of themselves as Arab no matter what their physical appearance. There it has much less to do with color--everybody is quite brown to black in tone, and more with features and other traits I couldn't figure out, not being native to the region.
A journalist in Mauritania recounted the story of visting the house of an "Arab" slave holder who talked of his affection for his slave, but reasoned that the relationship could never be equal because the slave was "black" and he was "white." I leave it to your imagination as to what the two really looked. There is actually some evidence, though I don't have the links right now, that Tutsis did come from among the Nilotic herding people who spoke a Hamitic (related to Semitic language.)

Melbourne Desi: I was joking, I absolutely know it does. I was feeling a bit cowardly, did not want to go off on a limb all by my lonesome. The fact is that in relationship oriented businesses, e.g. I-banking and strat consulting, "fit" is more important than intellect. Ivy Leaguers that can handle case interviews are a dime a dozen, it's fit that gets you a coveted spot in one of these firms. Before someone shouts "sour grapes", I've had offers in these industries so I am not acting the part of spurned lover

140 · PS said

The answer is "No". Mindy Kaling would have gone to St. Stephen's instead of Dartmouth, been filtered out of the McKinsey-Delhi offc first rounds inspite of her 4.0 "for not being a good fit". She would have penned a clever comedy screenplay that didn't involve dancing pygmies that could not find a buyer. She wouldn't even make the casting couch lest she cast her inauspicious shadow on the rosy cheeked beauties queued outside. She would then head south to Chennai where, broken & despirited, should would accept the role of "Gundumma Rathiri Karuppanadevi", comedic foil to the heroine "Alahaanakundi Velamma".

LOL! I guess some of this is tongue in cheek - hope this doesn't actually happen. I wonder if anyone in India has filed a lawsuit for being discriminated b/c you're too dark?

Now I haven't worked in India, but I would think, judging fromt he number of dark indians, that have excellent careers behind the scenes in the entertainment industry that she still would have been sucessful.

PS: But why should we be relegated to the back office? Theres a market for us in public facing roles in the US/UK, why not the country of our origin?

In Tamilnadu, the prevailing theory is after 40 years of "Dravidian rule", Dark skinned sudras are natives whereas white skinned Brahmins are Aryans and need to be driven out

The dravidianists and dalitistanis are being silly, or acting cynically for political purposes. No one with a clear vision and a clear head could possibly see brahmins or north indians as "white-skinned". This phenomenon of indians and africans calling obviously dark-skinned people "whites" needs to studied. Some points to ponder:

Unlike the sudras of Tamilnadu the Jatt Sudras of Punjab do not see themselves as natives of India. They imagine they are scythians from central asia :) A few of them regularly show up here to racially taunt the inferior "natives" of all castes.

Aishwarya Rai who the bollywood-brainwashed drones keep touting as the ideal light-skinned bollywood beauty belongs to a south indian sudra caste.

Jayalalitha the brahmin looks like she could be the daughter of Ambedkar the untouchable.

Chandrasekhar the brahmin Nobel Laureate was treated as a black pariah by white racists in America in the pre-Civil Rights era. Tagore faced similar racist humiliation when he tried to enter California from South America a century ago. He decided not to come into America.

Etc etc.

The british sure succeeded in screwing up many an unintelligent desi mind with their false self-serving equation of caste with skin color.

why should we be relegated to the back office? Theres a market for us in public facing roles in the US/UK, why not the country of our origin?

For the same reason that those with the stereotypical desi look can work as actors and models in the West but not in Bollywood: racial self-loathing.

I heard (right here actually) that oriental looking girls from the northeast are in great demand in public facing roles in India, including restaurants, because they are seen as much prettier than desi girls.

I wasn't aware that x-tian missionaries would say when landed in Kerala, "no aryans"...you seem to be comflating caste and aryan/nonaryan, which I'm not sure even what aryan means. Can you give some support for these statements?

Obviously the Aryan Invasion Theory was concocted centuries after the portuguese first landed in Kerala. I used the word aryan (in quotes) referring to the terminology used by the poster I was responding to.

Tagore faced similar racist humiliation when he tried to enter California from South America a century ago. He decided not to come into America.

Just to be clear, Tagore did enter America a number of times but on that one particular occasion he was mistreated racially and chose not to enter. I am trying to find a link to that incident; will post when I do.

Found a link:

http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=051605113928

"an incident from 1929: as a result of the humiliation that he received from U.S. immigration officials, the poet Rabindranath Tagore was forced to cancel his fourth lecture tour. That incident prompted the Nobel laureate to remark that if Jesus Christ himself were to come to America, he would be kicked out of the country - because he was an Asiatic.

Tagore explained his sentiments later by stating, "I arrived at Los Angeles, and I felt something in the air - a cultivated air of suspicion and general incivility towards Asiatics… I felt that I should not stay in a country on sufferance. It was not a question of personal grievance or of ill-treatment from some particular officer. I felt the insult was directed towards all Asiatics, and I made up my mind to leave a country where there was no welcome for ourselves… I have great regard for your people. But I have also my responsibility towards those whom you classify as colored people of whom I am one. I am a representative of Asiatic peoples and I could not remain in a country where Asiatics are not wanted."

More relevant stuff from the link:

"Another Nobel laureate, astrophysicist Dr. S.Chandrashekar of the University of Chicago, confessed to biographer Kameshwar Wali that he was subjected to humiliating experiences in America because of the color of his skin. Chandrashekhar was born in India, educated in England, and lived all his professional life in the U.S until his death in 1991. In the 1930s Chandrashekar taught, conducted research, and collaborated with the United States War Department on the atomic weapons research project. He became the first nonwhite person to be appointed to the faculty of the University of Chicago. According to Wali, the chairman of the physics department summarily opposed the appointment of Chandrashekhar to the faculty "because he was an Indian, and black". " [the racist even refused to shake Chandrasekhar's hands because he was black]

" President Lyndon Johnson was reported to have said while canceling the visits of the heads of state from India and Pakistan in 1965: "After all, what would Jim Eastland (the conservative senator from Mississippi) say if I brought those two niggers over here." (Quoted in Richard Goodwin, "The War Within," The New York Times Magazine, 21 August 1988, P.3. "

"In his path-breaking study of American images of Indians, MIT's Harold Isaacs reported one respondent who confessed: "skin color causes a certain tension in meetings with Indians." Another said explicitly: "in dealing with Indians you feel you're dealing with colored people, the same way you feel in the presence of Negroes…" A third, speaking of people in his circle of friends, said: "The Indian with his darker skin perhaps consciously or unconsciously suggests the Negro in the United States." A college professor in Texas expressed it openly when he declared: "They're just damn Niggers to me!" When the same professor was asked what he thought the American man-in-the-street might mentally associate with Indians, the reply was instantaneous: "Nigger!""

"This mythography of "Aryan origins" has wide currency among today's South Asian immigrants in America, says Mazumder, suggesting that this notion of white (Caucasian or Aryan) origin has led to a confused rejection of the color of their own skin. This leads to an almost paranoid response to even being thought of as black. For example, Bharati Mukherjee, the noted Indian writer, complains: "I am less shocked, less outraged and shaken to my core, by a purse-snatching in New York City in which I lost all of my dowry gold- everything I'd been given by my mother in marriage- than I was by a simple question asked of me in the summer of 1978 by three high-school boys on the Rosedale subway station platform in Toronto. Their question was, 'Why don't you go back to Africa?'"

136 · PS said

Brahmins reached Kerala around 800 AD

Brahmin settlement started at a much later stage around AD 7-10 centuries. They came to Kerala from Tulunadu under Kadamba Raja Mayurasharma's directions and settled in 32 gramams (villages). link

More references on travel records to follow.

The british sure succeeded in screwing up many an unintelligent desi mind with their false self-serving equation of caste with skin color.

It is easy to blame the brits. being the occupiers they would try to propagate any theory that would fit them. It is the duty of the "natives" to see through the plans. Unfortunately that never happened. I think everyone (esp. the so called Aryans) pre-Independence swallowed the theory because that put them in a better light, being the conquering race. I guess only when the Dravidian Sudras used the same theory to get back at the Aryans that they realised that "Aryan theory" is not working anymore and tried to refute it. :-)

Ambedkar and Jayalalitha, you can see the following photos to figure them out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambedkar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayalalitha

If you want to see good desi music that will blow away most of today's Bollywood crap then watch this...it's awesome... and at least in this clip the attractive, fair European women are actually doing something important along with looking good.

Excuse the following video as it is not the original, but the song is bril (IMO):

Click here

Hey Amardeep,
Chill! You lefty ABCDs take things too seriously...of course Indians think that that white skin is better than dark. That is more prevalent in advertising (Fair and Loverly, Fairever, Fair and Handsome etc etc...are one of many whiteness products). But that is part of being Indian....there are m,any things wrong with being Indians this is one of them
As far as the movie song...I think it is great. It warps Bhojpuri and mixes it into a great beat ...it is big hit with all the autowalas...
BTW I am a dark skinned Indian living in India

yikes... abcd speaking here - this song is definitely satire! those who don't watch bollywood movies should just take our words for it. akshay kumar seems to have an amazing sense of humor and his characters are usually funny in both the american parody/satire way and the slap-stick indian way - which is what makes him fun to watch for an 'ABCD' (as opposed to, say, Govinda)

also, Bangladeshi actresses have never reflected the average Bangali woman either. the actresses are always rubenesque (read: porkers) and suprise, surprise, they're really light-skinned. they do, however, uphold the Bengali trademark of beauty which is the round face with large eyes. in general, actresses aren't chosen to portray the average woman, they're chosen to portray what the audience perceives as the ideal beauty.

128 · LandBeyond7Zs said

128 · LandBeyond7Zs on July 12, 2008 09:58 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

98 · boston_mahesh said

I'm from Kerala and so many members of my family are light skinned or dark skinned. I never grew up with a concept that skin color designated race.

I am an egalitarian, who despise Indian race superiority talk(skin color, features - may be; intelligence- not a chance.). Human race did not have ample time to evolve to intellectual classes. However, there are assumed reasons for Kerala to have light and dark skinned people. Kerala had the country's best natural ports. Lot of merchants from Middle East,Southeast China were trading with locals. Kerala's history is recorded in travel notes of several travellers from middle east. The travel records of many Christian missionaries from 50-400 AD does not record the presence of Aryans or Brahmins in Kerala during that period. The latest agreements among historians is that Aryans(mostly Brahmins) reached Kerala around 800 AD. However there were recording of the presence of Jains, Jews in that period. The natives ( who can be called native?, there are no natives ) were dark skinned, the travellers have brought their light skin, the aryans brought the light skin too. There are not many written historical connections with south east chinese. But I have seen so many commonalities in custom, food, language etc. with Malays during my days in Malaysia. I do think there are some credence to the Malay-alam theory from my observations.
Thanks Jyotsna!

First of all, you have misquoted me. That's fine. Your article is confusing, and I'm not sure if you have mastery of your facts or the English language, for that matter. Here are some of my issues:
1. There are natives in Kerala, just like everywhere else. They're Dravidian speakers.
2. You mentioned that "There are not many written historical connections with south east chinese." My friend, Bodhi Dharma was from there, and he introduced martial arts to the South Eastern Chinese prior to 5th century AD. There were *TONS* of interactions between the two.
3. Prior to the 9th-15th century AD, the people of Kerala spoke Tamil. Malayalam started diverging from Tamil only during this phase.
4. There was also a big African component to India's gene pool. "Siddis/Habshis" came from Eastern Africa to Western India a few hundred years ago.

Why is there no such thing called "Aryan" but something called "Dravidian"? Aren't they both considered to be incorrect terms these days?

I thought they are used only as linguistic terms now...

eg Indo Aryan languages vs Dravidian languages.

Judging by sudden multiple references to 'lefty ABCDs', what's up with the all these DBDs crawling out of the woodwork all of a sudden?

First of all, you have misquoted me. That's fine. Your article is confusing, and I'm not sure if you have mastery of your facts or the English language, for that matter. Here are some of my issues:
1. There are natives in Kerala, just like everywhere else. They're Dravidian speakers.
2. You mentioned that "There are not many written historical connections with south east chinese." My friend, Bodhi Dharma was from there, and he introduced martial arts to the South Eastern Chinese prior to 5th century AD. There were *TONS* of interactions between the two.
3. Prior to the 9th-15th century AD, the people of Kerala spoke Tamil. Malayalam started diverging from Tamil only during this phase.
4. There was also a big African component to India's gene pool. "Siddis/Habshis" came from Eastern Africa to Western India a few hundred years ago

***************************************************************

Hasn't Razib already given dna evidence that there was not much population change in India for 1000s of years? Razib if you're around - any thoughts?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/business/media/14mag.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Some, like Maxim, seem to pride themselves on pushing the envelope of good taste even further than they do in their home markets. The magazine’s July issue includes the feature “48 Ways to Get a Gori” (gori is Hindi for fair-skinned woman, and is used in this context to mean a foreign white one). Some ideas the article offers: keep in mind most American women are extremely angry at Indians for stealing their jobs; don’t ask an Italian woman if her family is part of the mob; to approach an Israeli woman, try a suicide bomber joke.

155 · boston_mahesh said

First of all, you have misquoted me.

Ouch! Calm down friend! boston_mahesh! Sorry, if I have not reflected or responded to your thoughts 100%. It was a comment bit. You were taking the tangent that skin color did not have anything to do with race ( in the quoted sentence from #98). I said, I believed the skin color has to do with race and migration. I stated my opinion with my belief that no race/skin color is superior to another.

Please see the clarifications below.
1. There are natives in Kerala(I am claiming my stake). In the context of historical migration, every race came from somewhere. That is why I used that satirical comment about 'natives', in parenthesis.
2. I did not say or mean there were NO historical interactions between Kerala and South East China. There were lot. But in my next sentence, I said, I observed racial, language and customs similarities with Malays. I read about the Malay-alam theory about Malays. I have not seen much supporting material about it. I also have not read about any migrations from China to Kerala. I have not seen much common physical chartecteristics with Chinese either. There were plenty of cultural connections with Chinese and Keralites in history ( Communism of late!)
3. I beleive so. I did not say otherwise.
4. That is exactly what I was saying. Human beings migrated from all over the globe all thru history. You and I are living examples. That supports my satirism about superior 'Natives' talk.The IBM DNA study put the origin of human race in Africa. So we have that component in the DNA.

This attitude to white/black/brown Indians, and all the misconceptions that go along with it will live on for a long time I am sure. Even in the US, I have white friends talk about the color differences between their Indian friends. Many people (including Indians, Afghans, and Latinos) think that I am Afghan or Latino, when in fact I am 100% Bengali Indian. My Tamil friend would explain this by saying I am from the north. A) I don't really think of West Bengal as a northern state, and B)I know many Bengalis who are just as dark as my Tamil friend. I wish more people were educated in these manners, especially abroad, because we are providing incorrect information to people of all races.

Jimmy, you bring up an interesting angle... how Indians in the west misrepresent India to westerners.

This is touched upon a great deal by VS Naipaul in his work. Before him, India was represented by its upper class agents as 'spiritually clean'... he came along and shattered that image by portraying the grinding poverty and unhygenic conditions.

He reserves a great deal of his venom for upper-class Indian women married to western scholars... people who he feels work in tandem (from different motivations) to misrepresent India.

Many people (including Indians, Afghans, and Latinos) think that I am Afghan or Latino, when in fact I am 100% Bengali Indian. My Tamil friend would explain this by saying I am from the north.

A bengali passing for an afghan? LOL. These people are messing with your head jimmy.

Many people (including Indians, Afghans, and Latinos) think that I am Afghan or Latino, when in fact I am 100% Bengali Indian. My Tamil friend would explain this by saying I am from the north.

A bengali passing for an afghan? LOL. These people are messing with your head jimmy.

I would take his word for it, it doesn't look like he is taking some perverse pride in his deviation from Bong norms. I've seen tremendous diversity within Indian families(especially Eastern Indian from Bengal or Orissa)....maybe only the Brazilians compare in terms of stark contrasts among sibs

Haha Jon I know it may sound funny, but it is absolutely true. People think my mother is Afghan, and she absolutely hates it (you know how many Hindu Indians feel about Afghans) and my father has been mistaken for Chinese on a number of occasions, which he doesn't really appreciate either. In fact this has lead me to a book called the History of Bengali Speaking People by Nitish Sengupta. In his research he finds that Bengalis, and I am sure many or most other Indians as well, have some unexpected ethnic/racial groups mixed in such as Turks, Afghans and a variety of Mongoloid peoples. South Asia is an interesting region to say the least.

People think my mother is Afghan, and she absolutely hates it....and my father has been mistaken for Chinese on a number of occasions, which he doesn't really appreciate either.

Who are you kidding? Most all desis are extremely flattered to be "mistaken" for other races or nationalities (other than african). Many foreigners realize that and play along.

This pathological need among many desis to distance themselves from the "dark and ugly" look of the indigenous people of south asia is an expression of a deep-rooted racial inferiority complex born of defeat and enslavement by racially alien foreigners. The persistent poverty and backwardness of south asia relative to most of the world is also culpable. This pathology has outlasted muslim and british rule, because indians have internalized the racial contempt of their erstwhile foreign masters towards themselves. This is the reason why the Bollywood message thrives; and why the AIT stubbornly survives; with all kinds of indian communities from brahmins to sudras concocting crackpot theories of european or west-central asian origins for their communities. This is also the reason why so many desis keep telling anyone who will listen how they, or someone in their family, are sometimes mistaken for lighter-skinned ethnicities like afghans or latinos.

It is easy to blame the brits. being the occupiers they would try to propagate any theory that would fit them. It is the duty of the "natives" to see through the plans. Unfortunately that never happened. I think everyone (esp. the so called Aryans) pre-Independence swallowed the theory because that put them in a better light, being the conquering race.

You are right. Ultimately it is the servility and stupidity of desis that has internalized and perpetuated the western-centric demeaning view of themselves. However it is not entirely correct to say that no one saw through the pernicious agenda of the colonial rulers. A century ago Vivekananda harshly ridiculed the aryan invasion theory in terms that should have been taught in indian schools after independence; but wasn't because a much inferior breed of indians took over the reins of India when the british left:

"Our archaeologist dreams of India being full of dark-eyed aborigines and the bright Aryans came from the Lord knows where. According to some, they came from Central Tibet; others will have it that they came from Central Asia. There are patriotic Englishmen who think that the Aryans were all red-haired. Others, according to their idea, think that they were all black-haired. If the writer happens to be a black-haired man, the Aryans were all black-haired. Of late, there was an attempt made to prove that the Aryans lived on a Swiss lake. I should not be sorry if they had been all drowned there, theory and all. Some say now that they lived at the North Pole. Lord bless the Aryans and their habitations! As for the truth of these theories, there is not one word in our scriptures, not one, to prove that the Aryans came from anywhere outside of India" (The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Vol. III, 293 pp.)

Hmm, well, I'm too lazy to read through 166 comments, but just responding to the post itself and some of the first few comments...

Disclaimer: I love Hindi films (like love love). I have been learning Hindi over a year. I am white.

1. This song was a shocker when I saw it in Tashan. But my reaction was mixed - obviously, I dislike seeing race issues treated in blunt, one-dimensional ways (as in Dhan Dhana Dhan Goal, or most Karan Johar films), but I am also very interested in postcolonial culture. This song was a doozy, but I enjoyed it - it seemed like a mockery of both Hollywood, Hindi films, and Hollywood's perceptions of Hindi films. It was fun and good-humored and intentionally over-the-top. Compare this to the mockery of Johnny Lever's Anglophilia in Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, or the caricatured snobbish British housewives in K3G - that's cringe-worthy, in that it seems more mean-spirited to me.

2. I know English and I know some Hindi and both are nice languages, as far as languages go. So what's even nicer? Hinglish! Why is it tacky to love Hinglish? It's exciting to see new languages be created, and to see two languages interact and cross-fertilize. For the language puritans out there (esp. those who don't know Hindi but think it "sounds beautiful"!), why ya gotta be hating on Hinglish? And for those who think the mingling of English and Hindi words is another recent sign of the End of Times vis-a-vis Hindi films, something that came in on the SRK NRI Yuppie wave, please watch Chori Chori (1956) for Johnny Walker's song "All Line Clear"...

(Or one of my favorite lines from Amar Akbar Anthony (1977): "God promise, main saach bola huun!")

3. And to comment #6: Is it just me, or has bollywood gotten "whiter" as the times have passed - say compared to our parents generation some 35 years ago? Dude, I think it's just you. My favorite actor is Shashi Kapoor. I was just watching a film of his from 1978 where they described him as that "gora, lamba inspector saab". Shashi doesn't seem very lamba to me, but he's certainly pretty gora (and just pretty, hee!). Compare Shashi to the even lighter nephew Rishi, and the rest of the relatively pale Kapoor family. Or think of Vinod Khanna, Dharmendra, Rajesh Khanna... It seems like Hindi films have historically favored lighter-skinned actors in "hero" roles and delegated darker-skinned actors to supporting (or worse, "plebian") roles. Not a nice thing, but I think things are slightly improving in that respect - Nana Patekar, for example, is a darker-skinned actor playing heroic (well, paternal nowadays) roles.

This pathological need among many desis to distance themselves from the "dark and ugly" look of the indigenous people of south asia is an expression of a deep-rooted racial inferiority complex born of defeat and enslavement by racially alien foreigners. The persistent poverty and backwardness of south asia relative to most of the world is also culpable. This pathology has outlasted muslim and british rule, because indians have internalized the racial contempt of their erstwhile foreign masters towards themselves. This is the reason why the Bollywood message thrives; and why the AIT stubbornly survives; with all kinds of indian communities from brahmins to sudras concocting crackpot theories of european or west-central asian origins for their communities. This is also the reason why so many desis keep telling anyone who will listen how they, or someone in their family, are sometimes mistaken for lighter-skinned ethnicities like afghans or latinos

Well said. I don't wonder why I never heard my dark-skinned friends proudly proclaim they are mistaken as blacks, like some people claim they are mistaken for Afghans/latinos etc.. :-)

A century ago Vivekananda harshly ridiculed the aryan invasion theory in terms that should have been taught in indian schools after independence; but wasn't because a much inferior breed of indians took over the reins of India when the british left:

Nice to know that. I think Vivekananda is a smart guy. I have also read he claimed looking at the caste ridden Hindus of Kerala that he has wandered into a "lunatic asylum" .

Who are you kidding? Most all desis are extremely flattered to be "mistaken" for other races or nationalities (other than african). Many foreigners realize that and play along.

I dont believe most white people can tell the difference between different shades of brown. Marginal color differences in brown which make us determine whether one is light skinned or dark skinned look uniformly dark to an average white person.
Where is the Great Khan when we need him?

I don't wonder why I never heard my dark-skinned friends proudly proclaim they are mistaken as blacks

I have seen ANNA mention that she was mistaken for Ethiopian.

Also I have to admit, I feel really embarassed when the topic of Indian obsession with light skin comes up when I am dating a white girl, especially in the beginning stages of the relationship.

Bollyhood:

Who are you kidding? Most all desis are extremely flattered to be "mistaken" for other races or nationalities (other than african). Many foreigners realize that and play along.

Sometimes it's better to take a person at face value unless you have reason to suspect that person as an individual. In this case, Jimmy@165 makes statements that his parents are mistaken for other nationalities, and that they don't like it. The last thing he needs is some weird concept of political correctness policing that questions his statement and implies that his parents are secretly "extremely flattered" to be mistaken. And what evidence for this implication? A sweeping generalization that "most all desis are extremely flattered" to be so mistaken.

I agree that there have been commenters here, who at various times have either stated or implied that they are lighter-skinned than average. Some have been called out individually, which is good. What I object to is your painting everyone with the same brush and denying benefit of the doubt.

post punk cinema club: yes Bollywood has always liked pale skins but please recall that the top star of the 70s and the 80s, Amitabh, and of the 90s and 00s Sharukh are both nice and tanned.Currently Bwood is obsessed with white backup dancers.

171 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said

I don't wonder why I never heard my dark-skinned friends proudly proclaim they are mistaken as blacks

I have stated on this blog in the past that I have been mistaken for African American. But then again, I am not your friend. Heh heh.

It is embarassing the whole color thing. I can range from average Indian color to dark skin. When I visited India recently, I was "praised" for becoming much lighter. Oh god, you get into a situation where you dont like such praise, but at the same time, it would be rude to lecture well meaning relatives. So you grin uncomfortably and bear it.

I dont believe most white people can tell the difference between different shades of brown.

It's not just white people. The majority of my non-brown friends don't see the difference. It makes it difficult to explain the mentality of many desi families who want their children to marry someone who is from the same state, or speaks the same language, or from the same *sub*caste. Especially so with many Punjabi families. They say, "Aren't you all just Indian? What's the big deal?"

Also, an interesting note - I'm not sure about other states, but in New Jersey, cross-racial identification specifically holds less weight than someone id'ing another of the same race. For example, if a white person saw a crime and identified a black person in the lineup, the defense could argue that the cross-racial id is either weak or invalid.

Bollyhood:

Who are you kidding? Most all desis are extremely flattered to be "mistaken" for other races or nationalities (other than african). Many foreigners realize that and play along.

Sometimes it's better to take a person at face value unless you have reason to suspect that person as an individual. In this case, Jimmy@165 makes statements that his parents are mistaken for other nationalities, and that they don't like it. The last thing he needs is some weird concept of political correctness policing that questions his statement and implies that his parents are secretly "extremely flattered" to be mistaken. And what evidence for this implication? A sweeping generalization that "most all desis are extremely flattered" to be so mistaken.

Thank you for saying that! I have been reading bollyhood's statements and there are plenty of the worst generalizations about india and their supposed obsession with light skin. We can argue all we want or observe that Indian version of beauty includes light skin...but at least imo also know that is not the only thing that identifies a women or man's beauty or defines an Indian. I think Bollyhood is getting carried away with his generalizations - I mean do indians love to been seen as mexican, etc...please hardly..Just b/c Indians are on average darker than mexicans, I don't think that that means that we want to be seen as them. And I'm very dark and never been asked if I was black but have been asked if I was many other things. Does this make me flattered? Am I trying to twist the truth b/c I can't stand being seen as black? Or am I just expressing the truth? For me it's the latter statement. I think it's politically correct now to bash all indians as light skinned obsessed; Indians just chime in all the time...to say anything more nuanced just means someone is white-washed.

Louiecypher says -
PS: But why should we be relegated to the back office? Theres a market for us in public facing roles in the US/UK, why not the country of our origin?

No I wasn't saying this was right; and I think it's unfortunate...I just know that Indian society doesn't relegate all us darkies to cleaning the street. Hopefully Indians IN MASS MEDIA will appreciate the beauty of dark skinned indians more - so if I have a dark skinned kid, she will have choices in front of the camera in the entertainment industry,...but of course I would never want her to go into the entertainment industry and she should just study and become a doctor (J/K)

It's somewhat comparable to Americans using above average good looking, weight and

While we discuss this, let us not forget that there are shade prejudices even among blacks and hispanics. I think the main difference is that they are probably not obsessed with fair skinned males as much as Indians. I think a lot of cultures seem to view lighter skinned females preferably. That is not a fact, but just an off the cuff observation of mine. it's no accident that black stars are being paired up a lot with hispanic leading women in Hollywood to make the demographics more appealing to marketers.

I think with India, it is just so blatant and out in the open, it makes us uncomfortable. Plus, we are all indian, so we tend to look at our own group with more scrutiny.

"I dont believe most white people can tell the difference between different shades of brown."

That is one of the sillier things I've read on this blog. Has anyone actually asked them? Any race who can see the difference between pale and not-pale among, say, the inhabitants of the Orkney Isles or Iceland, is certainly capable of distinguishing among shades of brown.
This apparent obtuseness that is often attributed to whites concerning non-whites is what they consider pc politess. I have it through the grapevine that most whites who would voice any opinion on color are so saying the wrong thing (even we don't know what the right thing is at times) that they must pretend not to notice.

Concerning those elusive "Aryans", isn't it really a language group, not necessarily affiliated with an ethnicity, at least not in recorded history? There was a funny movie out in the 70s or 80s starring Anthony Quinn. Quinn played a European who for some compelling reason I don't recall, was recruited by nazi propagandists during the 1930s to be the poster-boy for the ancient, original "Aryan" who was--you gotta see it to believe it--dark! At least comparatively. You have to know what Quinn looked like, and how the Germans of that day envisioned Aryans, to get the joke of Quinn's stunned expression on the poster.

bollyhood is vyasa. don't feed it.

the song is meant to be sarcastic. you americans don't get sarcasm

i’m not sure it’s all sarcasm. and even if the song was meant as sarcasm, it's rather undeniable that many people in india would see it without getting that point - i.e., it would just emphasise certain ideas they already had. and - thanks to my ridiculous fascination with bollywood gossip - i know that kareena kapoor and her sister, back in the day, made a nasty remark about bipasha basu’s skin colour. speaking of bipasha basu’s skin colour – she’s not even that dark, considering the full range that is possible. and one of my (north indian) friends recently made a comment that malaika arora’s south indian roots “must explain why she’s so dark.” crazy. and annoying.

btw re srk – it’s true, he is prob. somewhat fairer than the average indian. and interestingly, in that f&h commercial, he’s darker than the guy he gives the cream to! does him being a superstar make up for it?

bollyhood is vyasa. don't feed it.

I don't know who vyasa is - but bollyhood sounds prema-like and ridiculously makes it seem that color is the only thing that guides desis. Which is far, far from reality imo.

I think it will be dishonest to say that the color thing is not a big deal in India, I have close family who is still hung up on the issue, although I must point out it is nothing compared to how it used to be even five years back. I think it is only going to get better the more the younger generation interacts with people from outside of India. The Shahrukh commercial was mercilessly mocked in India as well on all major news channels so it is not correct to generalize the phenomenon to the entire country.

# 185, umber desi: "I think it is only going to get better the more the younger generation interacts with people from outside of India."

(Please don't be take it too personally, umber desi). But, your statement really captures for me the condescending/patronising tone of many of the comments made here. Poor ignorant Indians, they need outsiders to show them the folly of their ways!!

I didn't mean it condscendingly but I was expressing hope. I was born and raised in India and live there for 27 years of my life. I really didn't mean to imply that people in India need outsiders to educate them and that is why I mentioned the coverage of the Shahrukh Khan commercial in Indian media. I can see that things are changing and what you quote was just a part of how I hope the attitude will change.

if indians were thoroughly obsessed with light skin to the exclusion of all other aesthetic merits, there should be countless dark skinned beauties unappreciated and single in the motherland. but alas, beauty is beauty and even the most prejudiced will be persuaded by it. maybe it was different in a previous generation, but the dark girls that i meet don't seem to be running a deficit of confidence. nor are there a scarcity of light skinned boys, who could as easily be with lighter complexion girls, falling for dark girls.

160 · LandBeyond7Zs said

155 · boston_mahesh said

First of all, you have misquoted me.

Ouch! Calm down friend! boston_mahesh! Sorry, if I have not reflected or responded to your thoughts 100%. It was a comment bit. You were taking the tangent that skin color did not have anything to do with race ( in the quoted sentence from #98). I said, I believed the skin color has to do with race and migration. I stated my opinion with my belief that no race/skin color is superior to another.

Please see the clarifications below.
1. There are natives in Kerala(I am claiming my stake). In the context of historical migration, every race came from somewhere. That is why I used that satirical comment about 'natives', in parenthesis.
2. I did not say or mean there were NO historical interactions between Kerala and South East China. There were lot. But in my next sentence, I said, I observed racial, language and customs similarities with Malays. I read about the Malay-alam theory about Malays. I have not seen much supporting material about it. I also have not read about any migrations from China to Kerala. I have not seen much common physical chartecteristics with Chinese either. There were plenty of cultural connections with Chinese and Keralites in history ( Communism of late!)
3. I beleive so. I did not say otherwise.
4. That is exactly what I was saying. Human beings migrated from all over the globe all thru history. You and I are living examples. That supports my satirism about superior 'Natives' talk.The IBM DNA study put the origin of human race in Africa. So we have that component in the DNA.

In 98, I only wrote what was said after "Linguistically...". There's something wrong with the quotation feature of this site. They need to call up tech-support in India, and that should solve the problem.

I have stated on this blog in the past that I have been mistaken for African American.

You have unusual honesty and self-confidence for a desi on the race and color issue. Like Swami Vivekananda:

http://www.hinduism.fsnet.co.uk/namoma/life_swamiji/life_swamiji_anecdotes.htm

" Swamiji became well-known in America. Once he was given a rousing reception at a railway station as he got down from the train. A Negro porter went forward to shake hands with him saying: `Congratualations! I am extremly delighted that a man of my race has attained such great honour! The entire Negro community in this country feels proud of you!' Swamiji eagerly shook hands with the porter and said warmly, `Thank you, brother!' He refused to deny he was a Negro.

Swamiji was insulted, humiliated and refused entry into many hotels in the South an suspicion that he was a Negro. But he never protested or explained that he was an Indian. A Western disciple once asked him why he did not tell them he was from India in such situations. `What!', Swamiji replied, `Rise at the expense of another! I did not come to earth for that!'"

In contrast we have the obscene phenomenon of too many desis shamelessly putting down fellow desis with the hopes of rising at their expense in the eyes of racist foreigners.

I'm very dark and never been asked if I was black but have been asked if I was many other things. Does this make me flattered? Am I trying to twist the truth b/c I can't stand being seen as black? Or am I just expressing the truth?

I see, you are a very dark skinned desi yet have only been mistaken for lighter races and nationalities (latino? afghan? chinese?) but never for black. To ask everyone to take your claim at "face value" is to insult their intelligence.

By the way, wasn't it you who once claimed that the highly prosperous Taiwanese people "looked up to Indians", and then went nuts when that preposterous claim wasn't taken at "face value"?

Where is the Great Khan when we need him?

Too busy earning his keep: sucking up to white racists. Nothing "great" about that career....

Bollyhood i would take it easy on the guy you were quoting in your #191.
Maybe the fools who made that comment actually think afghanis are dark. Plus a dark Indian's hairstyle, if it look's FOBish, people will not mistake that to be black. As far as chinese, you will be amazed at how ignorant some people are and have no clue what they look like. Probably confuse them with some dark southeast asian.

Latinos can be dark.Brazil and Puerto Rico are a lot like India in that aspect.

Maybe the fools who made that comment actually think afghanis are dark.

Many pashtuns are relatively dark and desi-looking. The overlap works both ways. The difference is that unlike desis the pashtuns do not glorify the dark desi look that is found among a minority of them at the expense of their own stereotypical look.

Latinos can be dark.Brazil and Puerto Rico are a lot like India in that aspect.

Latino is a broad term that does not denote any particular race or any particular racial mix. For example the majority of brazilians have some african ancestry while the majority of mexicans have some amerindian ancestry. You are more likely to find latinos who look a bit like desis (albeit usually lighter-skinned and more robust physically) in the countries where the mix is with africans, such as Brazil and Puerto Rico.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-race_Brazilian

The following famous brazilian in particular, Brazil's greatest writer, who was of african and portuguese ancestry, looks like he could pass for a desi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MarcFerrez_MachadodeAssis.jpg

Actually I suspect that the "portuguese" part of Machado de Assis's ancestry could have been gypsy. There are a lot of brazilians with gypsy ancestry as well.

184 · PS said

I don't know who vyasa is - but bollyhood sounds prema-like

vyasa, prema, bollyhood, valmiki, dev.... all the same.

That is one of the sillier things I've read on this blog. Has anyone actually asked them? Any race who can see the difference between pale and not-pale among, say, the inhabitants of the Orkney Isles or Iceland, is certainly capable of distinguishing among shades of brown.

Its not silly. Most whites cant tell the difference between different shades of brown with the precision that an average desi is able to discern.

I see, you are a very dark skinned desi yet have only been mistaken for lighter races and nationalities (latino? afghan? chinese?) but never for black. To ask everyone to take your claim at "face value" is to insult their intelligence.

You can choose to believe that or not. Just like you can choose to believe the Bengali. You are ridiculous in your claims of Indians problems and they become more and more ridiculous b/c you cannot put anything in context.

By the way, wasn't it you who once claimed that the highly prosperous Taiwanese people "looked up to Indians", and then went nuts when that preposterous claim wasn't taken at "face value"?

No I didn't go "nuts", in actuality it was you - haven't you been banned several times from this blog? - you kept making your stupid generalizations and denying that people have different experiences. I can go on about those experiences; but it starts getting silly; And I can't remember in what context what I said about Taiwan, but to deny the experience that I had there so that I can fit into the mold of your stupid overgeneralized statements about Indians is ridiculous.

You should have learned when you made that stupid statement about "korean men losing their women to white men" and it was picked up the general media, that sweeping generalizations without any context or nuances - your hatred for INdians is quite apparent - is just, well, dumb. Sorry your reality where you dump on Indians and Indian culture just isn't my reality and that me being a dark-skinned indian is swooning over the fact that I'm mistaken as a latino (lol!) is absurd.

But then I probably shouldn't feed the troll.

"...with the precision that an average desi is able to discern."

That might be true. Constant practice and care does hone the tone sensor, I guess.

No I didn't go "nuts", in actuality it was you

There you go being dishonest again. You are just not a very credible person. First you wrote that the taiwanese told you to your face (how rude) that they found your skin color repulsive, and then just a few posts later you wrote that the taiwanese "looked up to indians"! Of course I didnt take your irrational statement at "face value" and asked you to explain why they looked up to indians when they found indians physically repulsive and India was dirt poor compared to Taiwan. Since you didn't have an answer your brain blew a fuse and you went nuts.

Now you are saying that despite being a very dark skinned desi you have "never been asked if I was black but have been asked if I was many other things". So what are these "many other things" that you have been mistaken for? What races or nationalities look similar to very dark-skinned desis? Inquiring minds want to know :)

So what are these "many other things" that you have been mistaken for? What races or nationalities look similar to very dark-skinned desis? Inquiring minds want to know :)

Gweneth Paltrow

Jack nicholson looks desi

There you go being dishonest again. You are just not a very credible person. First you wrote that the taiwanese told you to your face (how rude) that they found your skin color repulsive, and then just a few posts later you wrote that the taiwanese "looked up to indians"! Of course I didnt take your irrational statement at "face value" and asked you to explain why they looked up to indians when they found indians physically repulsive and India was dirt poor compared to Taiwan. Since you didn't have an answer your brain blew a fuse and you went nuts.

No Prema, first of all you lie...continuously and exaggerate to a point that your statements are comical. Let's stop lying about your name first, shall we? And I'm always asked if I'm Indian or pakistani (lol) or most people just know I'm Indian (as I can tell in a discussion with them) and very often latino and during my stay in Taiwan I was asked if I was philipino often (and that's just a few)...I think I've had this discussion with you already but let me humor myself although you will go "nuts" as usual and start changing your username and lying about my experience - I looked up the discussion that you allude and where it came from:

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004482.html

The article was about an East Asian looking Indian winning Indian idol and discussion came about the racism that east asian looking people might encounter. An east asian desi, or maybe a nondesi, said something like - I was made fun of b/c of how I looked ---- My parents I know do not like the east asian look, nor do any of my family members. I have heard desis that I know Yet, wow they very economically successful.

Now, I related to SM my experience for a year in Taiwan --- where I said I was praised continuously for my looks - my eyes and my nose people said they wanted - and sometimes (much less so, but again who knows what people are thinking) told that "too bad your skin is dark" - often this was followed by but "pyow lien" which means beautiful. So I was showing the nuances of my experience as a dark-skinned indian there;

I also stated to you that my chinese friends all would make comments about how fat and ugly white people always were. That's my experience too and the white people that I knew, when I was teaching there, told me that they often heard in chinese rude comments about their looks and weight - funny isn't it? I also know that there are other perceptions of white people in Taiwan - of course; Just like there are many perceptions of Indians. I was also told by many people, how much they admired Indian's culture - are there Taiwanese that hate Indian culture - probably, but why should I not also bring about the compliments? Now I'll quote to you from the previous post when a commentator (again who was East Asian looking) was made fun of by desis b/c of his looks.

You should go back to that link by the way and read your idiot lies.

Prema -

my argument from a year ago still stand - here was my argument to you back them -

Prema says - You are just being naive, gullible and delusional. On the one hand you acknowledge taiwanese racism towards dark-skinned races and on the other you idiotically claim that they look up to indians!

I say to you prema, same thing I said last year - oh and I still have my same username too -

you are obviously digging yourself deeper into your own ignorant logic - Why do you think that they are mutually exclusive. I've noticed the same crap happening all the time in India -

As OSN claims, she experienced a lot of harrassment looking different as Chinese-Indian, yet I've met desis who admire characteristics that they stereotype Chinese as having and at the same time tell me that they don't like smaller eyes. For the Tiawanese man who sold me my egg and noodles I had 5 people tell me how much they admired Indians --- either way, it was nice to hear but i also know how easily these things can change; maybe they were saying it to sound nice to my face, then again maybe that’s how they really felt; - I didn't take these things too seriously, only I realize the world is complicated and people are much more intelligent than you give them credit for. You are right on par with the blind, India "shining" people.

Another situation that illustrates the point - I'm with my family in India and they'll say some nice trait about Jewish people and then say something stereotypically negative.

Prema - your statement is useless - face it. And your only deluding yourself if you think Taiwanese do not negatively stereotype Japanese --- unless of course my experience living there for year is just hogwash. And you continually ignore what I tell you all the good things I heard about Indians.

The reason I want to present these different experiences, both good and bad, b/c I don't want my experience in East Asia to be stereotyped to what people like you already have in your head. That's just not true. I'm sure you would love it if I told you everyday that I was spat on and called ugly and told Indians stink and people rubbed their tummies to me (lol!) all the time, but that's not the reality I experience. And as I told you, it would be wrong of me to paint it otherwise.

By the way, I'm on the board of a Vietnamese-American org, where I'm at, and my close friend is the ED, and I've heard from people within the org about the whole Indians are model minority crap. From their perspective they see Indian-Americans as very successful and as the ED said, "we have a long way to go for the success of the INdian community". Wow Prema, can you believe that the Vietnamese-Americans aren't so stupidly blinded by colorism, despite and let me quote you, that in a world where prosperity and skin color are metrics that assign status, desis, who are the darkest-skinned of asians and the most impoverished, are also the most disrespected. that people could actually admire desis. I guess that some Asians aren't as ignorant as you.

I realize you will ignore realities like that - that just doesn't fit into your world where Indians are seen as the scum of Asia (as I have asked you what proof do you have? and what is the point of your statement? I think it reflects so negatively on the rest of Asia - like as if they are some rabid, prejudicial idiots that read from your hot-headed Korean male manual). As I pointed to the Viet-Am ED, that the whole success of Indians shouldn't be stereotyped - I pointed out to her that the only Indians that were initially let into the country could only be professionals so that adds a lot to their apparent "success" in this country and it's different in other countries that had different immigration rules and as for Viet-Amers immigrants - they are immigrants who were running away from a war-torn nation and find themselves in a completely different socio-economic situation than the large number of desis that entered this country with phds.
It's unfortunate Prema you can't tone down your rabid, delusionary, raging, b/c I know underneath a lot of crap there's a lot of intelligent stuff you pull out of your butt.

I think mostly when people (i.e. North Indians) call actors like Bips, Nandita etc.. dark (when gvng examples of "dark"-skinned actors in the Indian Film industry) they are making the statement on the basis of what they usually see around them and not being derogatory. Indians do have different perception of skin color according to the region to which they belong. It's just geography! But whatever the skin color what some Indians can not stand is being compared to an African-American, as I discovered from this girl (from AP) who was deeply offended and almost hysterical when out shopping with one of our American black friend. The American girl simply made a remark that whatever shade of make-up looks good on her would look good on my friend as well since they have the same skin color. She just couldn't/wouldn't accept that!! (I on the other hand had no idea how to react to such hypocrisy, though now, 2 yrs down the line I have the exact words to would use in such a situation).

I'm always asked if I'm Indian or pakistani (lol)........ and very often latino and during my stay in Taiwan I was asked if I was philipino often (and that's just a few).......my experience for a year in Taiwan --- where I said I was praised continuously for my looks - my eyes and my nose people said they wanted -

You want us to take all this at "face value", right? ! Fuggedaboutit! Latinos and filipinos (and even pakistanis) are lighter skinned than the stereotypical indian and you are a very dark skinned indian, and yet are mistaken for them? Yeah right. And if the taiwanese thought you looked filipino why the hell would they "praise you continuously" for your eyes, your nose and your looks? Everyone knows that the chinese look down on filipinos. They dont see anything beautiful in their eyes, nose or complexion. A very dark skinned filipino is what you are saying you looked like to the taiwanese. Thats the definition of ugly to chinese eyes.

You are insulting our intelligence and making yourself look pathetic. You really should be embarrassed.

Bollyhood, didnt know you were such a bigot against colored people. Why does SM let this kind of racism pass?

You want us to take all this at "face value", right? ! Fuggedaboutit! Latinos and filipinos (and even pakistanis) are lighter skinned than the stereotypical indian and you are a very dark skinned indian, and yet are mistaken for them? Yeah right. And if the taiwanese thought you looked filipino why the hell would they "praise you continuously" for your eyes, your nose and your looks? Everyone knows that the chinese look down on filipinos. They dont see anything beautiful in their eyes, nose or complexion. A very dark skinned filipino is what you are saying you looked like to the taiwanese. Thats the definition of ugly to chinese eyes.

Wow, Prema - calm down - stop going "nuts" again like you did last year. I have no other response to you - you have proven yourself dumb and like I said to you a year ago, you continue to dig yourself deeper into nonsense; I can't respond to nonsense so I'll refrain from trying to make sense of your trolling idiocy.

I think mostly when people (i.e. North Indians) call actors like Bips, Nandita etc.. dark (when gvng examples of "dark"-skinned actors in the Indian Film industry) they are making the statement on the basis of what they usually see around them and not being derogatory.

They are not being derogatory, just delusional. Brainwashed by Bollywood. Its the height of delusion for you to claim that what one "usually sees around" in U.P., Bihar etc are lighter skinned people than these actresses you mentioned. Its unbelievable how stubbornly and shamelessly so many desis cling to their self-loathing racial fantasies.

Hollywood white/jewish actors that could pass for Desi
1) Jeff Goldblum:
2) Jeremy Piven. When i saw him in that Discovery Channel special on INdia, he blended in quite well.

OK, both are Jewish in this case.

you have proven yourself dumb and like I said to you a year ago, you continue to dig yourself deeper into nonsense;

That pretty accurately describes what you just did to yourself ;)

Its a good idea for you to slither off and hide now. The more you try to defend yourself the more you embarrass yourself.

And how delusional r u???? That u are not even ready to accept that Yes people up north have lighter skin!! No they aren't more intelligent, beautiful, smarter or anything else but most of them (and having spent 21 years of life in Delhi I think I can state this confidently enough) have skin a few shades lighter. That's it!! There's nothing more to it. India has people of (almost) every shade, one is not more or less of an Indian because of it or do u presume that just because someone has lighter skin that person will inevitably be biased towards darker skin tones??? Why such defensiveness?

And how delusional r u???? That u are not even ready to accept that Yes people up north have lighter skin!!

Hahaha.....

@ Sil : errr....what?? They don't?? (i.e. relatively speaking ofcourse!)

I think mostly when people (i.e. North Indians) call actors like Bips, Nandita etc.. dark (when gvng examples of "dark"-skinned actors in the Indian Film industry) they are making the statement on the basis of what they usually see around them and not being derogatory. Indians do have different perception of skin color according to the region to which they belong. It's just geography! But whatever the skin color what some Indians can not stand is being compared to an African-American, as I discovered from this girl (from AP) who was deeply offended and almost hysterical when out shopping with one of our American black friend. The American girl simply made a remark that whatever shade of make-up looks good on her would look good on my friend as well since they have the same skin color. She just couldn't/wouldn't accept that!! (I on the other hand had no idea how to react to such hypocrisy, though now, 2 yrs down the line I have the exact words to would use in such a situation).

Your American black friend must have been astonished! I assume she was pretty offended.

@ PS,

There was no way not to be! It was an embarrassing and shameful episode to witness. And hard for me to react since I was very new in the country then whereas my fellow desi had already been here for 4 years (and thus should hv been more respectful but...)

Hollywood white/jewish actors that could pass for Desi
1) Jeff Goldblum:
2) Jeremy Piven. When i saw him in that Discovery Channel special on INdia, he blended in quite well.

As a child in NY, I was surrounded by desis of all colors, and I thought anyone with black,black hair was desi - I was sure Eric Estrada in chips was desi and of course Elvis was desi.

There was no way not to be! It was an embarrassing and shameful episode to witness. And hard for me to react since I was very new in the country then whereas my fellow desi had already been here for 4 years (and thus should hv been more respectful but...)

I wonder what they teach in schools in India about black africans or african americans if it comes up at all in world history? I wonder how they teach it too - as there seems to a lot of disrespect for africans and AAs wins in general; But I've also met desis who admire different AAs too. It'll be interesting to see if Obama b/comes President. I know my own dad who has said negative stereotypes about blacks, is going to vote for Obama.

I wonder what they teach in schools in India about black africans or african americans if it comes up at all in world history?

With all due respect, why don't order some books from different Indian boards and schools, some of the websites for Doon School/ Springdales (elite end member) etc. will let you know of their books, and they may cost few dollars to buy them. Why don't you go to NCERT websites, as CBSE affilated board shools(middle of the road schools) use them often. And you will know.

There are about 30 (or more than 30) educational governing bodies at the school level in India - one for each state, and then some national ones in addition to them. There are schools that teach from some of the best books in the world, some teach from NCERT books (which are mixed bag, with governments with their own agenda twisting them, but, still they do have some very good books), and some teach in their own regional languages (they do sometimes have very good books, some times not). There are schools in India that same exams and syllabi like private schools in UK - with O levels, A levels, and then there are schools that are taught out in open (without bathrooms, and buildings) in small villages, and no printed books, but mostly verbal education.

With so much educational diversity in India due to economics, and languages, making a comment "What they teach in India?" is almost a foolhardy question. The answer is: It all depends, where in India, what economic class, and no one can give you a straight answer in all honesty.

Kush,

Actually I was hoping people like Kris would give their experience about what they were taught in world history about africa or african americans. I wasn't assuming that everyone is taught the same...and if someone gave an experience about what they were taught, I wouldn't assume that is the end all of everyone's experiences. And of course I could do some research on the matter and maybe one day I will, but why not get people's responses on their experiences about what they were taught on Africans instead of me delving into research on Wed afternoon - on the specific topic of Africans in the indian education system when I'm procrastinating enough at work? And as I said what it states officially is taught, is different than "how" it was taught and that's something I was wondering too. Why don't I order books? - umm, I think I'd rather just ask on a blog for now.

jimi hendrix was indian

PS,

Almost all publishing house of the world have India edition (like McGraw Hill is Tata McGraw Hill). A book that is US $60 here, is Rs. 60 there (a factor of 40 or so cheaper). Sometimes States in India fund translation of well known books in their languages.

There are schools that use these elistist books, but most of them not. In elite scholls that use, Tata McGraw Hill type books, students debate finer points of history and all.

However, most of students in India cannot afford books - any books. Even in IITs, they have book banks for semester loans so that engineering can use expensive engineering books for entire semester.

In a little village school in UP/ Bihar/ Assam/ Nagaland, where most of the education is verbal, and one book written in their regional language is shared by many students, the topic of Africa/ African Americans and all is of little value to them, and most probably never ever discussed, so their is no misconception to even begin with.

I wonder what they teach in schools in India about black africans or african americans if it comes up at all in world history?

Slavery in the USA
American War of Independence.
Abraham Lincoln and American Civil War.
Martin Luther King (very brief - maybe two paras)
Egyptian civilizations.
European conquest of Africa

Then of course - Mark Twain.

As far as I know, India does not teach analysis - just "facts"

The Brazilian post that Sandhya wrote reminded me of a recent show on PBS' Wide Angle series about how college-age kids in Brasil were having to "try out", in effect, to determine if they were "black" (this involved having an official photo taken and sent to a governing body) so they would be eligible for a much-coveted seat in university as part of a new affirmative action programme. If anyone's curious, you can read more about the programme and watch the episode online here.

220 · Manju said

jimi hendrix was indian

Manju,

You're wrong, sister. Sree Jimi-ji was a Hindu god.

Slavery in the USA
American War of Independence.
Abraham Lincoln and American Civil War.
Martin Luther King (very brief - maybe two paras)
Egyptian civilizations.
European conquest of Africa

Then of course - Mark Twain.

As far as I know, India does not teach analysis - just "facts

Thanks Melbourne Desi - as far as the analysis thing, that is something that I get when I hear my dad speak of his schooling - I mean basic schooling - before college. I would think in masters or phd or md programs there would have to be analysis.

The Brazilian post that Sandhya wrote reminded me of a recent show on PBS' Wide Angle series about how college-age kids in Brasil were having to "try out", in effect, to determine if they were "black" (this involved having an official photo taken and sent to a governing body) so they would be eligible for a much-coveted seat in university as part of a new affirmative action programme. If anyone's curious, you can read more about the programme and watch the episode online here.

This is great - very interesting - thanks for sharing. ONe thing I've realized is that what "race" you are determined to be depends on what the community at large sees - and so it can vary. In rural NC growing up, I was often told by people that they thought I was native American; In Taiwan, I was so surprised that anyone would think I was filipino, as in my mind filipinos are light-skinned with a different type of eye. For many Taiwanese they saw filipinos as dark skinned with large eyes. Living in different places in the world or traveling, just made me realize how important it is to have a good sense of personal identity b/c your outside identity may change often.

Reg the songs preferring white/goris, there are similar lyrics in the "PAppu can't dance" song in the new movie Jaane Tu .I don't know the context but the lyrics say something like "Pappu ki aankhe light blue, Pappu dikhta angrez hai" . So here the preference to whiteys is blatant.
Didn't read all the comments so not sure if someone pointed this out already.

I don't know the context but the lyrics say something like "Pappu ki aankhe light blue, Pappu dikhta angrez hai" . So here the preference to whiteys is blatant.

That song has nothing to do with white people. It is..........

a) A homage to Aamir Khan's first commercial movie, QSQT, and Aamir Khan made Jaane Tu. Check the choreography similarities between "Papa kehte the.........", and "Pappu can't dance".

b) It is a serious dig at Salman Khan (his dimeanor, physique, and dancing skills - lack off), so serious, that Aamir Khan and Imran Khan had to deny it to the press, and in person to him on TV.

c) It makes a light hearted fun at westernized, affluent Indians.

"...Hollywood white/jewish actors that could pass for Desi"

um, how about British white/jewish Peter Sellers in The Party. But he was even more convincing as Detective Clouseau in the Pink Panther.

I don't know, this song sounds a bit like a parody since they're wearing wigs. But, I won't comment on the nature of this video, it was taken out of context and might have been a joke.

I'm so sick of my race being exoticised in Bollywood cinema.

I am more than just a piece of smooth white flesh!

"Still, am I the only one to find the song/video at once deeply embarrassing and oddly catchy?"

You are not the only one.

The Indian Subcontinent needs its own Black is beautiful cultural movement...

Is it even possible?

"The Indian Subcontinent needs its own Black is beautiful cultural movement..."

I've often wondered this myself seeing that so many Hindus (I am writing from a Hindu perspective and can not speak for Muslims, Jains, and etc.) hold Krishna/Vishnu in such high reverence and glorify "his dark and beautiful form" yet have such an everyday dislike for dark skin.

I just would like to share this video i found from clash entitled The Obama Musical Clash featuring the video of Obama Goes Bollywood...Well,guys try see the various ways he is able to communicate and get his message across :- )This is quite interesting...

Since the discussion on this thread has been so much about desis preference for light skin, it's refreshing to see these pics of Lakshmi Menon and another model in Indian Vogue.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_m_3PqTnwV8k/SAjhVtMmp1I/AAAAAAAAE_w/pYlmL1-fLdU/s1600-h/Lakshmi+Menon+-+India+Vogue+April+2008+Large.jpg

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://bp0.blogger.com/_m_3PqTnwV8k/R0xkmBBy1gI/AAAAAAAACzU/NuTpxS8A3Bg/s400/India%2BVogue%2BOct%2B2007%2B-%2B6.jpg&imgrefurl=http://asianmodelsblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/laxmi-menon-kamal-sidhu-editorial-for.html&h=400&w=305&sz=23&tbnid=Xih6dei1tX8J::&tbnh=124&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlakshmi%2Bmenon&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=2&ct=image&cd=1