Amardeep,

Thank you for informing all of us about Ashwin Madia's candidacy for Congress. He definitely represents Indians better than Piyush "Bobby" Jindal ever could and he is a veteran. I served 8 years in the Navy and am proud to see someone like him succeed. Good luck Ashwin.

Regards,
Manish

One of the Senate seats from Minnesota is being contested by Al Franken the commedian from Dems against an old incumbent Norm Coleman and recently Fraken has started polling ahead. This shows that there is a huge anti-republican wave this time around. If the Dems cant win big this time, there is something inherently wrong with them. The Republicans can pray that somehow magically the economy turns around and OIL bubble bursts atleast a month before the election. Otherwise, it is a Dem sweep nationwise IMO.
So Madia has some tail wind working for him. All the best to him in the polls.

I wish best of luck to Ashwin Madia. BTW Abhi just came back some 40 hours ago from his adventure, and will certainly pick up on Ashwin's pursuit, I hope soon. Manish: good to know you were in US navy for eight years. If you have any Nuclear Navy experience I could use few good men !!

Thus far, I don’t think Madia’s ethnic background, his name, or his religion are factors in the election; in that sense, his campaign, and the rhetoric around it, seems very different from Bobby Jindal’s.

i think this is engaging in some attribution error; minnesota is VERY different from louisiana. e.g., white people in south are dumber than in the north.

There another desi running for congress in Tennessee named Vijay Kumar
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Vijay_Kumar

1 · Manish_Y said

He definitely represents Indians better than Piyush "Bobby" Jindal ever could and he is a veteran.

Jindal represents the people of Louisiana. Madia is running to represent the people of a congressional district in Minnesota. I don't think every person of Indian origin running for office is required to represent Indians. However it is nice to see an Indian running for office without trying to distance himself from his own culture.

However it is nice to see an Indian running for office without trying to distance himself from his own culture.

but what is your own culture aside from what your chosen culture is? bobby's culture is the culture he espouses, not the culture that he was "born" into, right? i know it's a matter of interpretation, but i think it goes to having us understand that brownz don't fit any one template and we all make our own choices. i personally don't agree with bobby's culture or his choices, but then i'm generally not sharing much in common with southerners most usually, so no surprise.

p.s., my quibble above is similar to my quibble with terms like "self-hate." the problem with terms like this is the people casting the aspersion are abrogating the right to define someone else's identity and interests for them.

"white people in south are dumber than in the north."
.
Enough of the verbal diarrhea, please. People are just tired of your countless and pointless posts.

7 · razib said

but what is your own culture aside from what your chosen culture is?

Bobby was born into a Indian Hindu family and was raised as a Hindu, presumably grew up eating Indian food and going to Indian social functions. Until he was a young adult Indian culture was his culture. He deliberately shed that culture by switching religions, changing his name and generally acting like a white guy trapped in an Indian guy's body.

It's fair to say that he distanced himself from his own culture. He has the right to do whatever he wants and I respect his choices. In fact I'm probably one of the more pro-Jindal guys on Sepia Mutiny.

As someone who works in a field that has very few Indians, I sense that downplaying my Indian-ness would probably benefit me professionally. So I'm always heartened to see an Indian succeeding without having to let go of his ethnic identity. That makes it all the easier for me and other Indians out there.

Enough of the verbal diarrhea, please. People are just tired of your countless and pointless posts.

LOL. i'll hold the lawyer-insults ;-) too easy. ah, the wages of insults from "lawyer-activists."

Bobby was born into a Indian Hindu family and was raised as a Hindu, presumably grew up eating Indian food and going to Indian social functions. Until he was a young adult Indian culture was his culture. He deliberately shed that culture by switching religions, changing his name and generally acting like a white guy trapped in an Indian guy's body.

but is peer group wasn't brown from what i know; he was sent to a catholic school in baton rouge. in any case, i think it's a fair point to suggest that indian american kids, no matter their religion and/or their vegetarianism, share more culturally on many parameters with other americans, white or not, than indians. that might have changed more recently since there are more brown kids around, but during bobby's youth it was a white & black world.

but is peer group wasn't brown from what i know; he was sent to a catholic school in baton rouge.

Absolutely not. He attended public school at Baton Rouge Magnet High School and graduated when he was 16 (Source Wikipedia). During the change of his religion, he was in a public school, and that too a very elite one.

While Baton Rouge is no NYC, however, it does have quite a bit diverse population with lots of first generation immigrants because of LSU, ExxonMobil Refinery, and other chemical plants nearby.

Thus far, I don’t think Madia's ethnic background, his name, or his religion are factors in the election; in that sense, his campaign, and the rhetoric around it, seems very different from Bobby Jindal's

I think this is engaging in some attribution error; minnesota is VERY different from louisiana.

Well statistics have Madia's district with a median income of $63,816 and mostly 'burbs of the Twin Cities. The ethnic demographic is mostly white, middle and upper middle class. Tammy Duckworth had a good run in '06 with a similar background (other than the more eminent reminder of her Vet status). Madia's background has not been brought up probably because it won't matter as much to his populace. But it apparently does seem to matter to us and his contributors from outside the 3rd District.

However, I do hope he wins...An Indian Vet...heck yea. Semper Fi

e.g., white people in south are dumber than in the north.

Umm wow...

I read all your links. It isn't the first time I've come across such a hypothesis, but the extrapolation you've stated is invalid.
In your stated research:
1. There are no economic variables
2. There are no socio-political or military variables
3. Causation from correlation...'nuff said

Did the renaissance take place during a global cooling?
If the Puritan work ethic was so relevant and Weber was right, aren't there more heirs of the Calvinists in the south rather than the north?
I wonder what IQ test results in the "Congo" of South India (your words) would show when matched up to our Northern peers. Aside from the fact that there is no proof that IQ is in any way completely culturally relevant or a measure of things like empathy, cultural awareness, extraversion and such.

I think you should refrain from making such offensive statements or at least phrase them in a manner reflecting research.

On the topic of Vijay Kumar...that website is such a treasure trove of cultural stereotypes, from the pictures on the main page to the wording. Geebus...I found it nauseating.

1. There are no economic variables
2. There are no socio-political or military variables
3. Causation from correlation...'nuff said

i did some quick controls with the GSS using the region as the independent. the pattern still exists. in any case, it's unclear why they're less intelligent, but it's a consistent trend across almost all ethnic groups in the GSS (black, white, even hispanics and asians [to get asians i just put in race as "Other" and excluded all hispanics from that sample). i posted british isles, german and irish ancestry cuz the N's were HUGE.

If the Puritan work ethic was so relevant and Weber was right, aren't there more heirs of the Calvinists in the south rather than the north?

the baptist church has an *official* calvinist orientation now, but they're operationally arminian (see *theological incorrectness* by d. jason slone). additionally, there's a fair amount of social science suggesting that fundy/evangelical churches in the south are among the least calvinist in the webberian sense of attention to worldiness. but it isn't calvinist as such that i'm pointing too, both the scotch-irish and the puritans were calvinists (presbyterians and puritans). rather, the milieu of the new england calvinists and their folkways was very different from the scotch-irish.

14 · razib said

i did some quick controls with the GSS using the region as the independent. the pattern still exists. in any case, it's unclear why they're less intelligent, but it's a consistent trend across almost all ethnic groups in the GSS (black, white, even hispanics and asians [to get asians i just put in race as "Other" and excluded all hispanics from that sample). i posted british isles, german and irish ancestry cuz the N's were HUGE.

Razib, thank you for your prompt response.
What about the immigration patterns?
The influence of the intermixing of Romans from the Mediterranean climes with the populace of the British isles.
The socio-economic status, reasons et al. of Blacks, Hispanics and Asians in the South who did not move up North.
Could there also have been a migration of the wealthier more affluent populations of the civilizations that arose in warmer River Valleys to move up to cooler climes due to whatever reasons?
What about the military factors involved? Isn't it easier to defend your land when your fortifications are on hills etc. leading to a longer existence of certain civilizations? And consequently more of the businessmen, intellectuals and such moved to such climes...What was that dudes name Ibn-something that wrote the Muqaddimah talked about the rise of societies and such.

Your research is interesting no doubt and you seem to have covered a lot of avenues, but I still think the way you phrased your findings was wrong.

Oh and thank you for the info on the Baptist Church, I will definitely look that one up. I'm no fan of them and was playing the Devil's Advocate. I'am a huge fan of Max Weber and now Ashwin Madia...his responses to the questions in the comments were really excellent...

Bobby was born into a Indian Hindu family and was raised as a Hindu, presumably grew up eating Indian food and going to Indian social functions. Until he was a young adult Indian culture was his culture.

How big was the desi community in that part of Louisiana from the 70's to the mid 80's when Jindal was growing up. I don't think it was that big.

The influence of the intermixing of Romans from the Mediterranean climes with the populace of the British isles.

genetically trivial. see here and here. the extinction of romano-british christianity and latin should indicate the collapse of high culture in the face of a pagan illiterate anglo-saxon herrenvolk.

What about the immigration patterns?

that's why i looked at the numerous white ethnic groups, english & welsh, irish and germans. region more than ethnicity predicts response on vocabulary tests. the standard deviation across regions controlled for ethnic group was 50% larger than the average of standard deviations of ethnic group controlled for region. IOW, irish in new england are more like germans in new england than either are like irish and germans in the southeast.

The socio-economic status, reasons et al. of Blacks, Hispanics and Asians in the South who did not move up North.

i looked at whites, so as to ignore the confound of the black migration. if you look at the GSS southern blacks are less intelligent than northern blacks. hispanics and asians are relatively new aside from tejanos, and cubans are sui generis, in the southeast. so i didn't look too closely, but you see a similar trend, though the N's are really small for the GSS.

Could there also have been a migration of the wealthier more affluent populations of the civilizations that arose in warmer River Valleys to move up to cooler climes due to whatever reasons?

i'm looking at the USA. the migration during the post world war ii period of educated and affluent whites to cities such as austin, the black professional back-migration to atlanta from the north, and the emergence of fairfax county and the research triangle, should diminish the difference between north and south, not exacerbate it! (also the migration of retirees to places like florida; working class folk tend to move away less to retire than professional and upper class types)

What about the military factors involved? Isn't it easier to defend your land when your fortifications are on hills etc. leading to a longer existence of certain civilizations? And consequently more of the businessmen, intellectuals and such moved to such climes...What was that dudes name Ibn-something that wrote the Muqaddimah talked about the rise of societies and such.

i don't deny contingent cultural factors. i think you're talking about ibn-faldun.

Your research is interesting no doubt and you seem to have covered a lot of avenues, but I still think the way you phrased your findings was wrong.

ok, i was impolitic. so let me rephrase: people in the american south are less fluent in symbolic logic and have a relatively depauperate lexicon ;-)

How big was the desi community in that part of Louisiana from the 70's to the mid 80's when Jindal was growing up. I don't think it was that big.

i looked up the 1980 census. 3,030 asian indians in all of louisiana.

18 · razib said

i'm looking at the USA. the migration during the post world war ii period of educated and affluent whites to cities such as austin, the black professional back-migration to atlanta from the north, and the emergence of fairfax county and the research triangle, should diminish the difference between north and south, not exacerbate it! (also the migration of retirees to places like florida; working class folk tend to move away less to retire than professional and upper class types)

it's a little jarring to see fairfax county considered part of the south! so many people living here would argue that point to the death, even though we technically are under the mason-dixon line :)

white people in south are dumber than in the north.

Indians (average IQ 81) or african-americans (average IQ 85) should not be mocking the intelligence of whites (average IQ 100). Thats just stupid.

21 · Binet said

Indians (average IQ 81) or african-americans (average IQ 85) should not be mocking the intelligence of whites (average IQ 100). Thats just stupid.

How about we mock the stupid IQ test then, genius?

12 · Kush Tandon said

While Baton Rouge is no NYC, however, it does have quite a bit diverse population with lots of first generation immigrants because of LSU, ExxonMobil Refinery, and other chemical plants nearby.

Not to mention hella motels and gas stations. My pa's a realtor in the region and I've been out there with him. (I don't mean to imply that those desi small-business owners were there when Bobby Jindal was coming up, though.)

Indians (average IQ 81) or african-americans (average IQ 85) should not be mocking the intelligence of whites (average IQ 100). Thats just stupid.

indian americans have a much higher IQ than 81 (check GSS or the regression of sons to father degree attainment to calculate it). but who cares what IQ your group is? i don't give a crap; it is what it is. being stupid isn't a sin, and being intelligent isn't merit. but for the grace of god go....

6 · JGandhi said

1 · Manish_Y said

He definitely represents Indians better than Piyush "Bobby" Jindal ever could and he is a veteran.

Jindal represents the people of Louisiana. Madia is running to represent the people of a congressional district in Minnesota. I don't think every person of Indian origin running for office is required to represent Indians. However it is nice to see an Indian running for office without trying to distance himself from his own culture.

Mr. Gandhi,

Thank you for your response. Yes I realize that Mr. Madia does not represent "me". I live in Maryland. But as others have said on this thread he isn't ashamed of his Indian background either. I really look up to people whatever their age who represent Indians and also other members of the subcontinent in a positive light. I don't think Mr. Jindal does this, he panders to goras. Sorry but this is the un-PC truth. Don't run away from what you are just to "fit in". Trust me you will just be looked at as another camel-jockey, cow-worshipper, curry muncher, sand-n*****etc.. But I'm sure you already know this.

Yo Dad,

Sorry, I don't have any Nuclear experience. I was in the Naval Civil Engineering Corps (Seabees). I was a Construction Electrician. I was involved in all aspects of wiring commercial and residential buildings. I also was a lineman (the guys & gals) that climb utility poles and service transmission lines, transformers, etc. The seabees taught me a lot, skill wise. I learned to work hard using my hands and my head. My time in the service especially helped me to grow a backbone and stand up for yourself as both an individual and as an Indian.

Razib,

You're a jackass. Plain and simple.

25· Manish_Y: really look up to people whatever their age who represent Indians and also other members of the subcontinent in a positive light. I don't think Mr. Jindal does this, he panders to goras.

I think many people have a much different view of who represents Indians and how...I think Jindal does just fine, and pandering to your fellow Americans and your constituents is not a bad thing. It actually is what an American elected to office is supposed to do.

16. Razib: ok, i was impolitic. so let me rephrase: people in the american south are less fluent in symbolic logic and have a relatively depauperate lexicon ;-)

I still think your research does not take into account all variables, but it is rather comprehensive.
However, I would like to point out a simple statistic, that exists a negative correlation between the amount of condescension associated with someone who doles out information and the receptiveness of the audience it is doled out to.

, that exists a negative correlation between the amount of condescension associated with someone who doles out information and the receptiveness of the audience it is doled out to.

what's the r?

28· razib: what's the r?

-0.89

I know!

r-squared 's OK ;-)

27 · RahulD said

25· Manish_Y: really look up to people whatever their age who represent Indians and also other members of the subcontinent in a positive light. I don't think Mr. Jindal does this, he panders to goras.

I think many people have a much different view of who represents Indians and how...I think Jindal does just fine, and pandering to your fellow Americans and your constituents is not a bad thing. It actually is what an American elected to office is supposed to do.

16. Razib: ok, i was impolitic. so let me rephrase: people in the american south are less fluent in symbolic logic and have a relatively depauperate lexicon ;-)

I still think your research does not take into account all variables, but it is rather comprehensive. However, I would like to point out a simple statistic, that exists a negative correlation between the amount of condescension associated with someone who doles out information and the receptiveness of the audience it is doled out to.

Rahul,

Please spare me the Dinesh D'Souza "model minority label" crap. Trust me I know that Jindal is reaching out to all of his constituents who happen to be Evangelical gora morons. Got that. I'm happy to be liberal and not ashamed of it.

Not all of subscribe to the Republican agenda either.

Manish

31 · Manish_Y said

Rahul,

Please spare me the Dinesh D'Souza "model minority label" crap. Trust me I know that Jindal is reaching out to all of his constituents who happen to be Evangelical gora morons. Got that. I'm happy to be liberal and not ashamed of it.

Not all of subscribe to the Republican agenda either.

Manish

If there is anyone I hate in the "my opinion on India" crowd, it is Dinesh D'Souza - I repeat, I HATE that guy. I don't think being Evangelical has any correlation with being a moron.

The Republican "agenda". Well my Republican Agenda is not the same as Jindal's, I'm Pro-Choice for starters.

I still believe that you should not make your race into a significant determinant of your culture, just the same way you do not want others to judge you differently based on your race. We are falling into the "self-hating-Jew" territory when we do that.

I don't think you should be ashamed of yourself for being a Progressive...I don't know what I said implied that?

Jindal is an American, born into a certain culture where he had experiences that led him to be the individual he is. As for his religion, people convert all the time. The manifestation of Santana Dharma today is a result of the several philosophical conversions that our ancestors had, hence morally we cannot denounce any conversion made by rational-fully informed individuals as being "selling out". It is as hypocritical as Hypocrites himself. I only wish that Jaspal Bhatti was relevant enough to have a field day with all this identity-hoopla among Indians about Jindal.

Rahul,

Very well put. I'm sorry about my tirade. Enough of my mental masturbation. Gotta get back to work.

Regards,
Manish

I don't think being Evangelical has any correlation with being a moron.

uh, sorry, it does.

Razib

We already went over this. Your research in this regard is based on narrow charecterizations that do not take into account multiple factors such as economic and socio-political dynamics. They do not take into account linguistic development, cultural sensitivity.

SAT's have a less than significant correlation with EVERYTHING. So do grades, and IQ tests do not take into account numerous factors. If you want evidence, start at the B.I.T.C.H-100 test results and research.

Look up Terror Management THeory research to derive more plausible explanations for certain religious inclinations and then pick up some Foucault and/or Marshall McLuhan for some light reading. Maybe then you might find more socio-economic factors that you will take into account.

When you cannot, cannot, produce multiple sources, where the findings have been replicated through parallel instruments your findings cannot be generalizable or universal. There is a certain responsibility that Intellectuals have, the overriding notion of which is the application of the findings scientific research in a proper manner. You are NOT doing that. If we arrive at conclusions the way you seem to be, then we can all start believing in the hallucinogenic theory of civilization, shoot up and wait for progress to occur.

SAT's have a less than significant correlation with EVERYTHING.

??? ;-) lol.

If we arrive at conclusions the way you seem to be, then we can all start believing in the hallucinogenic theory of civilization, shoot up and wait for progress to occur.

???

36 · razib said

If we arrive at conclusions the way you seem to be, then we can all start believing in the hallucinogenic theory of civilization, shoot up and wait for progress to occur.

Entheogen Theory of Myth, Religion and Death

Good for Ashwin Madia (I know I have some relatives who are very happy campers in MN right now)

Manish_Y - thanks for your service, and, well, I was gonna to reply to some of the stuff you said, but Rahul said it all better than I could have. I disagree with Ashwin Madia on many things politically, but, I don't assume that because I disagree with him, he is not sincere in his beliefs. Also, if he's gonna be a successful politician, he will, at some point, pander.

(By the standards of some around SM'er, my Indian born, India raised parents wouldn't be properly Indian enough for some of you.....)

Unfortunately, and I say this with the utmost earnestness, a potential congressional office holder will HAVE to support, at least rhetorically, the efforts of small groups pushing to expand the current war into Iran, lest he wind up with torrents of cash flowing into the campaigns of his opponents. An unenviable position for an anti-war Iraq veteran for sure. I hope he does not compromise his principles in this respect. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the standing of Barack Obama to voice a strong (even compromised) opinion against this possibility, and I doubt his skin color will do him any good, if it makes an effect at all.