Amardeep, I think it would be good to add some context. It took me a while to figure out what it set out to achieve. From the publication -

The National Coalition of South Asian Organizations (NCSO) presents the National Action
Agenda in order to (1) raise awareness about the needs of South Asians in the United States; (2)
insert issues affecting South Asians into local, state, and national dialogues; (3) guide future policy
recommendations; (4) increase public understanding of the depth and scope of our community’s
needs; and (5) enhance ongoing and future advocacy, organizing, and educational efforts.

or major disagreements?

it's left-liberal. left-liberal brownz, i.e., most brownz, should support it. non-left-liberal brownz should oppose it because it is opposed to their political orientation.

btw, i've said this before, but i'll say it again: you'll never have an indian american (let's be honest, that's what we're talking about here) lobby like a cuban american lobby or jewish american lobby because indian is too f**king important. kant be left to a lobby, OK? brownland matters for the red-white-and-blue, not just the brown....

read most of the PDF. this center-right brown can endorse a lot of the stuff; e.g., data collection. not a lot of the other stuff. i have no issues with a lot of the LGBTA material, who you love or do is your biz, but a lot of people have moral issues with that. *shrug* at least 'pass the roti on the left hand side' doesn't try to hide it's ultimate political agenda....

(and yeah, i disagree with abhi that brownz can really organize outside of a few narrow areas)

What do we have in common with ABCDs? ABCDs are interested in us so they can feel superior and if they can't find someone willing to marry them, they can condescend to pick one a little more Westernized (civilized) than the rest of us.

FOBs have different political agendas than ABCDs. I saw this in grad school. The ABCDs use the ISAs for hooking up and for phony Bollywoodish things they consider as Indian culture and FOBs were more interested in simpler things like helping out new grad students learn the ropes.

I also personally strongly support the subheader on Gender Equity:

Gender Equity: Advance gender equity within the South Asian community
• Support programs aimed to address and prevent gender-based violence within the South Asian community
• Support programs that provide linguistically accessible and culturally appropriate services for South Asian domestic violence survivors
• Support policies that protect and empower immigrant domestic violence survivors
• Support immigration policies that protect and empower dependent visa holders
• Strengthen policies aimed to prevent all forms of trafficking and provide meaningful resources to survivors
• Develop policies aimed at curbing transnational abandonment of spouses
• Increase culturally and linguistically appropriate health services for South Asian women
• Promote programs and policies that foster the economic empowerment of South Asian women

Good luck with that. I think 15-20 years from now, you will see people in the south asian community in the west talking about the same issues with very little being done. I can not image how tough it is to be a south asian women living between two cultures and having to deal with all these issues.

whats wrong with using cultural organizations to hook up? if you made friends with one those phony abcds they might have helped you learn the ropes a lot faster than from another fob who arrived two years before you.

We, who were already there and knew the ropes, were interested in helping out new arrivals to the country. This was not on their agenda. Their agenda was to party. I did not call them phony. I said they were into phony Indian culture. Finally, we split. They had their parties and we organized pickups from airports and temporary accomodations.

I would say FOBs need to organize themselves to look after their interests. ABCDs have their own distinct agendas that are often in opposition to FOB interests.

How many FOBs do you have blogging for Sepia Mutiny? How can you talk about a unified South Asian agenda?

I myself stayed at some FOB's place for a week, who I had never met before and became a very good friend and some dozens of FOBs stayed at my apartment in subsequent years. I have cooked for dozens of strangers, many of whom I don't even remember.

This is not a boast. FOBs look after FOBs. We depend on the kindness of our poor unsophisticated fellow FOBs.

Is it possible to ever release one of these things without intimating that it is lifetime gov't employees and fickle congressman upon whom we must depend in order to achieve any of these objectives? If you want institutions that serve you, sometimes you have to build them from the ground up (like the george mason law school).

Also, can the section on civil liberties ever be accepted by a left-leaning crowd without references to thought-crimes (anti-bias, hate-crimes legislation--what you think dotbusters have the relevant sentencing guidelines on instant recall while mauling you? What kind of deterrence is that?), and anti-1st Amendment laws? I can understand barring propagandists from places like dining halls on college campuses, but everywhere? No, that's not my America and probably the major reason I can't fully get behind this proposal.

I have to remain agnostic on the expanded data collection question, but that's because the proposal doesn't contain specifics--the questions asked on testing material in Australia was incredibly specific (with respect to language spoken at home) and nationality, but i never saw studies linking it to heightened efficiency in the delivering of social services/immigration services.

as for specifics, can we finally drop the requirement that visa applicants show sufficient economic ties to their home country--I had a relative, who has been a professional carnatic singer for most of his life, get denied 3 years in a row and the only explanation we got is that because of his profession, he was deemed inadequately tied to Blighty. (or perhaps they were afraid of his razor-sharp gamakas).

>>Preserve voting rights of South Asians by eliminating voter intimidation and suppression...

...in the sub-continent or in the US?!! Never heard of a single case of a desi being intimidated or suppressed at the voting booth in the US.

M. Nam

3 · razib said

btw, i've said this before, but i'll say it again: you'll never have an indian american (let's be honest, that's what we're talking about here) lobby like a cuban american lobby or jewish american lobby because indian is too f**king important. kant be left to a lobby, OK? brownland matters for the red-white-and-blue, not just the brown....

I think I understand what you're saying here, but could you please elaborate a bit?

Ensure limited English proficient citizens’ access to the right to vote

Don't most if not all indians speak english?

More broadly, this agenda could be adopted by La Raza without changing a word. What makes it so South Asian specific?

[quote ---------------------------------]
I would say FOBs need to organize themselves to look after their interests. ABCDs have their own distinct agendas that are often in opposition to FOB interests.

How many FOBs do you have blogging for Sepia Mutiny? How can you talk about a unified South Asian agenda?
[-----------------------------end quote]

Brownfob's comments may seem crude but they are somewhat correct.

1. Most of the new immigrants (DBDs) have stronger ties to their Motherland (say India), this does not apply to ABDs.

2. Most of these new 'immigrants' have completed the " F1->H1->GC->American Citizen" journey (or they are in the process) things that ABDs do not and cannot appreciate. This makes a huge difference e.g. "real" path of an Indian and a Sri Lankan towards a GC is different (same immigration rules may apply but there are a lot many Indians than Sri Lankans in the queue - the dreaded 'Priority Date')

3. ABDs like to visualize "South Asians" as one group primarily because this way they see a larger group and there obvious advantages in numbers. I cannot think of any other reason. (Unlike South Asians most of the Latino’s (even 2nd gen) have a common language and a common religion)

4. ABD's (or South Asian Americans) are just about as knowledgeable about South Asia as African Americans are about Africa. Most of them have little or no idea about the politics of that region, whatever little they is know is from western press reports or some (pseudo) intellectual blog .

One reason why (Jews) Isreali- Americans (AJC and others) do not merge in to a “Middle-Eastern American Association” along with their middle eastern counterparts (Americans of Palestinian/Syrian/Egyptian origin).

5. East Indian Americans are larger in numbers and they are beginning to assert themselves to an extent in Washington, (I think) they believe that they can push their message/agenda without a ‘South Asian Partner’.

[ quote -----------------------------]
one finds three Sikh advocacy groups endorsing the agenda (SALDEF, Sikh Coalition, and United Sikhs), but not, as far as I can tell, any groups that are specifically oriented to advocacy for Hindus, Muslims, Jains, or Desi Christians
[ end quote ------------------------]

I am surprised that SALDEF, Sikh Coalition and United Sikhs have endorsed this agenda. It may be that leaders of these association do not have an bias towards an East-Indian-American agenda.

I would say FOBs need to organize themselves to look after their interests. ABCDs have their own distinct agendas that are often in opposition to FOB interests.

examples?

5 · brownfob said

What do we have in common with ABCDs? ABCDs are interested in us so they can feel superior and if they can't find someone willing to marry them, they can condescend to pick one a little more Westernized (civilized) than the rest of us.

FOBs have different political agendas than ABCDs. I saw this in grad school. The ABCDs use the ISAs for hooking up and for phony Bollywoodish things they consider as Indian culture and FOBs were more interested in simpler things like helping out new grad students learn the ropes.

BrownFOB,

Bhaiji, please do not try to universalize your experience with ABCDs. When I came to this country in 1975 at the age of seven I could count the number of other desis I saw on my fingers. Now over the course of time there are more than a million in this country (USA). I'm sure that many or more exist in Canada as well.

Let me get to my point. I feel like I'm more in between either ABCDs or FOB as I was neither born here nor had I grown up in India. Therefore I hope to give you an impartial view. Most FOB I met were either graduate students or PHd candidates so your level of maturity may have been higher than a typical ABCD who was perhaps just starting college or getting ready to finish their undergraduate degree.

As these ABCDs grow older they will mature and through the life process they will eventually realize that they are neither superior to you nor are they inferior, just another desi with an American accent. You also need to realize this and not look at every ABCD as your enemy. I know this from first hand experience as I am married to an FOB, who I love very much and she isn't more or less civilized than me.

Kudos to you for helping incoming Indian graduate students assimilates into your college campus. Most ABCDs can't get up at 4 a.m. in the morning and drive 400 miles to pick up a stranger they have never met. However I also made many friends at college who were FOBs and I invited them to my house to study and have food and they in return reciprocated. I learned simple things from them such as caring for others, sharing your resources etc. They learned from me an ability to clean toilets, bathtubs and other things without thinking it was bad.

I am glad that you blog here. Trust me no gora, kala, chini, etc. thinks when he sees either you or me as being different. You and I know this isn't true that but they don't. So let's try to find some common ground. Smile, I can respect you and hopefully you can respect me. Sorry for the long philosophical tirade.

Peace Bhai and pass the roti & lassi.

Thanks for that comment, Desi-Like-You. I think that should be everyone's philosophy, whether we are DBD's like me or ABD's like Amarjeet, Razib, etc, or in-between like you. We do need to learn from each other and I, for one, have learnt a lot from my interactions with ABD's. All those years ago, when I came here as a twenty-four old grad student, I found that many ABD's were struggling to reconcile their parents' very traditional ways, and idealization of "Indian values" with the reality around them. I like to think that I helped some of them realize that it was possible to eat dal-chawal and still be "modern" in the only place it matters - in your head. And they introduced me to Apache Indian (there, that dates me), Mexican food, sushi, taught me how to eat with chopsticks, etc, in other words made my interactions with the larger American world easier. So unlike brownFOB, I did not come to the conclusion that ABD's were spoilt, immature brats with an inflated sense of entitlement.

Having said that, it is also true, that ABD's and DBD's definitions of independence are different. For most DBD's, living in America is the first experience of having to make financial decisions on your own for the very first time. Here, there is no Mummy or Daddy to back you up if the bank account is running low, unless you come from a super wealthy background which most of us do not. So one tends to grow up pretty quickly here. It is a good feeling to know that you can take care of yourself on a student stipend (and stipend only, as foreign students are not allowed to work off-campus or claim food stamps or any other benefits), pay your bills and taxes, etc., without input from overprotective parents. So next time you see a DBD grad student picking through the piles of clothing at Target, do consider the circumstances, instead of dismissing them as cheap. This is why DBD's tend to concentrate on practical help - like airport runs, temp accomodation, showing newcomers the ropes, etc. For ABD's the assertion of identity is a more fraught issue than it is for DBD's and for many of them, it stays a lifelong one. And DBD's should be supportive of ABD's efforts to deal with identity issues, not dismiss them as trivial and superficial self-indulgence. A "big tent" political approach will allow everyone's issues to be tabled and discussed. As Desi-like-you puts it, it's all about learning from each other and thinking of ourselves as "we" rather than as "us" versus "them."

The only point here that seems questionable to me might be “Eliminate xenophobic comments against South Asians… in political discourse.” I’m not sure how that could ever be made to happen, so why put it on an agenda?

I disagree. At the risk of taking ourselves too seriously, the community can sensitize the public about xenophobia, when used in political discourse. Obama's "D-Punjab" gaffe being a good example. I think the goal could have been better stated.

examples?

ABDs view the political process primarily through the prism of racism whereas, DBDs view the political process as a means to vote for the candidate of their choice.

I think the point that brownfob is making about the differences between fobs and abds is one that is essentially about authenticity. It is a question of who really defines the true Desi experience. The immigrant from the motherland struggling to make it shopping and picking up other fobs at 430am or the American born desi who is also struggling to make it in terms of negotiating her multiple and fractured identities. And who says that the new immigrant is not contending with multiple identities as well? When authenticity is up in the air, I think the question of a South Asian political agenda becomes challenging and exciting. How can we define and agree on the issues that affect all of us. To be a successful political campaign can everything under the stars be on that agenda? But moreover, who decides who is a South Asian? I do not know if it necessarily serves us well as a community (then again what is a community) to fight amongst ourselves especially in terms of a political agenda.

I myself am very confused most of the time. I was born in INdia and moved here at a relatively young age and constantly feel conflicted because I don't just see my identity as Indian and American. Wrapped in it are the identities of woman, political activist, mother, environmentalist etc.

What do wealthy 2nd gen suburban doctors, for instance, really have in common politically with recent immigrants working as shopkeepers and taxi drivers in ethnic enclaves in the inner city? It’s a difficult question to answer, though that doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying to answer it.

I don't know how far political sphere is affected by the cultural sphere and vice versa. But one thing is more-or-less certain- any naturalized desi American citizen who has had his share of living/growing in India can never completely think in terms of a pan-Indian identity/agenda let alone a pan-South Asian agenda/identity. There is too much difference and diversity within India and the sub-continent. Now whether having assimilated/ become American citizen, how far should he or she change his thinking of India/South-Asia ? Diametrically opposed to this is the fact that a pan Indian/pan-South Asian agenda is more suited for "native desis" and maybe even for greater political influence like Jews or African-Americans.

17 · Sharmishtha said

So next time you see a DBD grad student picking through the piles of clothing at Target

Target? That's posh. How about Salvation Army? Not for Halloween costumes but for a decent coat for those terribly harsh NorthEast and MidWest winters? My classmate got his from an American classmate who happened to be there shopping for a costume.

Instances of understanding, kindness, incomprehension, insensitivity are too numerous for any generalization. Let's say I have found help when I needed it.

I think I understand what you're saying here, but could you please elaborate a bit?

re: india & geopolitics vs. cuba & israel. india is too important to leave to an indian american lobby, so the analogy with the cuban or israeli lobby isn't working. i know that a lot of americans (jews, muslims, evangelicals) think israel-palestine is SUPER important. actually, it's important cuz its important to them, not because israel REALLY matters. what matters in the middle east is the persian gulf with its oil. as for cuba, no one cares but cubans and cuban americans.

an analogy would be if russia had left its relations with germany up to the volga germans.

but not, as far as I can tell, any groups that are specifically oriented to advocacy for Hindus, Muslims, Jains, or Desi Christians.

You are right about not explicitly doing so, but the progressive groups certainly have a certain way of defining and explaining victimhood.

I like what SAALT does at a local level, they are for the most part decent people. But as far as creating a coherent "South Asian" agenda goes, I know this means that Indians will have to defer to Pakistanis and Bangladeshis on all matters.

ABD's (or South Asian Americans) are just about as knowledgeable about South Asia as African Americans are about Africa.

a lot of the criticisms of ABDs are probably valid, but isn't this just dumb? i mean, come on, ABDs were/are almost all raised by immigrant parents. the DBD at the salvation army was our parent!

I know this means that Indians will have to defer to Pakistanis and Bangladeshis on all matters.

just find a group which has more victimhood creds that can be your sock-puppet; identitarian problem solved ;-)

Adding to the fracturization (is that a word) of the immigrant experience is that there is another class of DBDs. THere are DBDs like me who have immigrated into the country for work, not for studies. Most of us tend to be older, many of us usually come here with family in tow. ALmost all of us have been working in Desh before coming here, so we have a better sense of independence (and responsibility). In some ways it is more difficult for us, because we don;t have access to a support network that college students have. In some ways, it is easier for us, because we tend to come into (relatively) well-paying jobs, and tend to be more solvent than college students. Also, going from having a job in India to having a job in US is not as much of a culture shock as going from being dependent on your parents in India to being totally on your own in the US. In some ways, it is totally different for us, because many of us have wife and kids back home.

Let's lay off on the generalizations on ABD and DBDs. There are DBDs who come from affluent Westernized backgrounds who fit in more with ABDs who go to prep schools as far as social mores go. There are ABDs who do work study, are cost conscious and have more in common with DBDs of moderate means. Most DBDs are coming with 100x more background knowledge on how to get by than my parents had when they came here in the 60s.

you have to live in a freakin cocoon to think this is an agenda that'll create solidarity among various south asian communities. there's not even an attempt to embrace the diversity that is desi outside of that diversity palpable to progressives trained in, may i say, western theories of social justice. and in the same breath they'll probably label jindal white-washed.

So they want to eliminating voter intimidation and suppression but no desire to end voter fraud by groups like ACORN, that dilute our hard earned vote. they want to ensure a decent wage w/o a word for the desi 7-11 owner who must provide it. tenets right are important but not property rights. yeah, desis don't aspire to own property and came here for freedom right, not money. they want access to credit but not a word for what that'll do to the models of all the desi analysts on wall street who provide the credit in the first place.

look, outside of a few issues related to equal protection under the law, identity politics make little sense, and can be very divisive among not only different identities but also within them. why fan the primitive flames? and even when the issue does involve equal protection under the law, like say the nikita rau race-based quota case, progressives jump in and ask us not to question their identity b/c they believe in social justice even at the expense of a fellow desi. fine, but please show the rest of us the very same respect for which you ask.

but please show the rest of us the very same respect for which you ask.

if you're part of the hegemonic power structure you don't deserve respect! hate speech is not free speech; and freedom to be illiberal is not freedom at all! or something.

"South Asian Americans Leading Together"

India has a sadomasochistic desire to associate with concepts that don't want to associate themselves with it. This trend seems to have carried over to Indians/people of (or who want to be associated with their) Indian origins. This concept of South Asia that these (we) people have is absent from the schemas of most other South Asians.

Pakistan and Pakistanis go to great lengths, towards asserting their identity independent of India..."eweryone vas on wacation" "ve vere inwited, punch vas serwed" mentality. Jinnah is referred to being born in Sindh, all Pakistani Muslims came from Turkey, the Mohajirs came from Muslim kingdoms so on and so forth.

The Bangladeshis believe that Mukti Bahini rose up and defeated all the West Pakistani oppressors through sheer strength of will and superior military tactics, by themselves. India had "military observers" and the bloody telegram never happened.

When Pakistan "lost" to Bangladesh in cricket Wasim Akram and later the PCB said, "today we lost to our brothers, we are happy for them". I wonder when if ever such a statement was made towards India. Yet India opens up its borders, issues Visas, subsidizes travel and offers up places that need to be demolished to the last brick as "gestures of goodwill", to establish Pakistani and Bangladeshi embassies in Bombay so that they can actually provide even more fertile grounds for the ISI. All in the name of "South Asian" solidarity.

Another example of this "South Asian" goodwill, was evident at my university. The Indian population here is thriving, so the ISA is extremely active. However, the ISA was filled with stinky, accented Desis...yech! - so the Americans who have ancestors of Indian Origin, established the "South Asian Student Association" to promote South Asian Values (yea, I did an Anthony Bourdain and went "doesn't South Asia have many countries?")
They had 1 non-Hindu, non-South-Asian-whose-ancestors-are-of-Indian-origin and that was the Korean girlfriend of one of the guys.

The Indian Commerce ministry offers subsidies to China, which reciprocates by flooding the Indian market with substandard goods. India's foreign delegates throw their weight behind China and they are rewarded by China blocking India's Security Council seat. Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai worked out great the last time.

Stick to being American instead of finding a contemporary Osmanlikh that does not exist.

Another "progressive" group which plans to take money from the community and betray its interests.

This concept of South Asia at least in the university campuses across North America is entirely bogus. I am summing up from my life experience as a Graduate Student in a couple of North American Universities. Muslim students from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh wholeheartedly join the Muslim Students Association. Non Muslim Students from India, if they are in sufficient numbers, join to form the Indian Students Association. Indian Students of US Origin definitely do not want to be associated with the Indian Students Association patronized by students from India. To keep their identity separate they congregate to form the South Asian Students Association. Surprisingly in both the universities where I studied, I did not find a single Pakistani or Bangladeshi student in the South Asian Student Association. To me the very concept of South Asia is to deny the "Indian" identity. American born students of Indian Origin probably are ashamed to be associated with land of "snake charmers", and that is why they want to identify themselves as South Asians. However other communities such as the Filipina , the Vietnamese, the Chinese, the Iranians, etc join their respective associations irrespective of their country of origin. That is Vietnamese from Vietnam and Vietnamese from America together constitute and run the Vietnamese association. The same applies to the Chinese and other Asian communities. The only time Pakistanis and Bangladeshis use the term "South Asia" is whenever they want to deny any credit to India, as in South Asian Movies , South Asian Dances, South Asian Religions etc. Sometimes they also use South Asia to masquerade their internal issues and problems. As for the Indian Students of US origin, the less said the better.

a few points

1) "south asian" vs. "indian", etc., talked about 9,999 times so far on this blog, just in case the newbies think they're being original (not an aspersion, just saying the arguments are pretty much set).

2) i think "indian" and "south asian" are kind of like "white" and "american." IOW, the fact that indian american kids populate south asian groups is probably less about shame about india than a confidence and latitudinarianism that comes from being descended from people who come form the dominant south asian country and pretty *define* south asia in the minds of many.

3) i think the point that many muslims aren't as into being south asian is totally true. i've heard pakistani americans complain that they want to be thought of as muslim americans, not as asian americans. re: #2, i think some of the distance by bangladeshi or pakistanis vis-a-vis south asian groups is that the latter are going to naturally be dominated by indian americans cuz about 90% of americans of south asian descent are indian americans.

4) the proper analogy for south asian student unions are asian pacific american associations; there you have 2nd and 3rd and 4th gene east asians dominant, and japanese and chinese american kids think of themselves as having a lot in common as asian americans. obviously their parents might not be as sanguine about such associations.

re: #4, assuming parents are immigrants. not as common for japanese americans obviously, who are mostly a 3rd gen on up community now.

I can get behind the entirety of that agenda, but then again, I am also in favor of gender equality and economic justice for all Americans, not just desi immigrants. It's a pretty left-leaning agenda, though, and I'd be surprised if some of the wealthier (more likely to lean libertarian or conservative) communities could agree with it.

Most SASAs have a cool, reefer loving Sufi bon vivant from Pakistan that they can use to bolster their SA cred. This guy, let's call him Rumi Ganjawallah, is OK in my book. But he sure as hell isn't a bridge between Indians and Pakistanis. He's a refugee.

newbies!...e-penis?

To go through the comments on every post on this blog is possible, thanks to the nifty design of the programmers. But why cannot an opinion be restated; I'm sure there would not have been a back handed compliment of Kalyan (or me) had he been expressing a more "progressive" view point.

Port Huron statements are nothing new, but this is hardly one and should not be given support.

Oh thank god we are talking about this again. There were so many times on this blog when I was wondering why we are discussing this issue and I was told that "we are southasians and this is our issue" When the majority of people commenting here are Indians. Having said that I completely agree with Kalyan. ABD's are always labelling themselves as belonging to some southasian organizations/blogs/gropus......why do they not have the courage to call themselves Indians???

I'm sure there would not have been a back handed compliment of Kalyan (or me) had he been expressing a more "progressive" view point.

i'm right-wing dude ;-)

To me the very concept of South Asia is to deny the "Indian" identity. American born students of Indian Origin probably are ashamed to be associated with land of "snake charmers", and that is why they want to identify themselves as South Asians.

Wow, I've never heard this sentiment. In fact it's the opposite, that people wish they can refer to themselves as Indian Am, but in the need to be politically correct and not sound overconfident or hegemonic, refer to themselves as South Asians.

Also let's not forget that all of these identities also play into finances and resources - To get money for a particular bangladeshi american group, etc. can be more difficult than an organization that encompasses a larger student body or a larger population in a city, etc. And then our identity comes from the census too, as all south asians are seen as asian, by the US government and local governments.

sunshine:

You asked "ABD's are always labelling themselves as belonging to some southasian organizations/blogs/gropus......why do they not have the courage to call themselves Indians???"

As an ABD, I tend to call myself south asian-american, rather than pakistani, because to be honest, I have more in comment with Indian, Bangladeshi, or Sri Lankan ABDs than I do with my parents' friends in Karachi. I follow Pakistani politics and am aware of the tensions in Pakistan and India, but living in the US, it's easier to look past those differences and see another ABD who is struggling to figure out how her identity as an American fits with her identity as, say, a Marathi.

I also don't call myself Pakistani because, as much as I pay attention to Pakistani issues, I'm not living them, and I find it somewhat obscene to identify with people who are living daily with no power or water, and the fear of radical Islamist attacks while I am sitting comfortably in a condo in Boston. When it is important to be more specific than just "south asian american" I always add the modifier -American to Pakistani-American.

39 · sunshine said

Oh thank god we are talking about this again. There were so many times on this blog when I was wondering why we are discussing this issue and I was told that "we are southasians and this is our issue" When the majority of people commenting here are Indians. Having said that I completely agree with Kalyan. ABD's are always labelling themselves as belonging to some southasian organizations/blogs/gropus......why do they not have the courage to call themselves Indians???

Mr. Sunshine,

I have not lived in India for over 33 years but I'm proud to be an Indian. Enough said. ABD and DBDs; ABCDs, FOBs. Dark skin, light skin, blah, blah blah. If you're Indian or of Indian descent acknowledge it, its not that hard. I have a wonderful American accent but that doesn't mean I'm superior to someone who does not.

Peace

Wow! Just what I've been waiting for! I weep gentle tears as my dreams are realized.......I didn't really know who I was until I joined South Asian Writers and Journalists Against The Incorrect Usage of 'this begs the question'. I know have a home, a real home.

Kidding about the above, obviously.

Looked over the stuff briefly, ain't interested, but good luck to those who are.

*Awwwww, it's the old ABD vs DBD debate again. So cuuute......

Please substitue Now, not Know into above comment where Now, not Know, should have been used....thank you

If you're Indian or of Indian descent acknowledge it, its not that hard.

it is if you are a khalistani, right? so it's more complicated than that. my parents showed up in these united states 1980ish from bangladesh. they're social circles were (in the rank order of frequency of participation):

bangladeshis (mostly muslims, but not all)
bengalis from indian (mostly hindu, but not all)
pakistanis (mostly muslim, but not all) and indians from places aside from bengal (mostly hindu, but not all)

these debates get framed into "south asian" vs. "indian," but it's more complicated than that for most people. i'm someone who was born in bangladesh, raised in the USA, and don't have a freak out if someone says i'm "indian." my grandparents were born in india. my father was born in india. my mother was born in pakistan. my children will be half-brown and born in the USA; i assume that these bangladeshi vs. indian distinctions will have as much salience for them as sicily vs. naples distinctions have for the children of italian immigrants. not much.

Razib

[quote ---- ]
a lot of the criticisms of ABDs are probably valid, but isn't this just dumb? i mean, come on, ABDs were/are almost all raised by immigrant parents. the DBD at the salvation army was our parent!
[end quote ---]

I did not get the salvation army part and I was not commenting on the parenting style of a DBD parent of an ABD kid, infact I dould learn a lot from your parents about raising an ABD.

My point was that most ABDs are largely untouched by the politics of South East Asia so they have a somewhat high level/superficial idea about that region. This is not true for DBDs. For example news of a bomb blast in Mumbai or Dhaka is experienced differently by ABDs and DBDs - ABDs lament lack of security, poor infrastructure, 'why can't these people get along', 'where does this event fit the larger geo political picture' BUT for DBDs it is about staying up all night making phone calls to make sure that none of their friends or family members got hurt.

Another example - in this blog (which is run by ABDs) a lot of respect if accorded to an ABD veteran/member of Armed/Security Forces (WMD sleuth) - at the same time Armed Forces of a South Asian country are mocked. In fact a blogger made a really crude comment after an attack on a camp where some Police personnel were killed in India ( cuz out there all Police is bad and they violate human rights). For DBDs this type of news is distressing if he/she has a parent living in that region.

Relationships between South Asian countries is contentious to say the least, local newspapers and TV reflect that reality and strong opinions are formed. Often DBDs carry this baggage with them where ever they migrate to. ABDs have no such context so they are more concerned about empowering "da brownz".

33 · KALYAN said

Muslim students from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh wholeheartedly join the Muslim Students Association. Non Muslim Students from India, if they are in sufficient numbers, join to form the Indian Students Association. Indian Students of US Origin definitely do not want to be associated with the Indian Students Association patronized by students from India. To keep their identity separate they congregate to form the South Asian Students Association

South Asian student association is probably centered on common interests in bollywood, bhangra, occasional bharatnatyam+indian classical music and brunette+brown attraction. There is going to be much more diversity and complexity to the South-Asian identity in the future as world will become more and more multipolar. And there is less of pan-Indianness in the Indian students association than it appears on the surface.

my parents used tohave 3 parties/year:

1. one for the south indians
2. one for the north
3. one for the americans

My point was that most ABDs are largely untouched by the politics of South East Asia so they have a somewhat high level/superficial idea about that region. This is not true for DBDs.

most of who who don't identify as a DBD (i'm 1.5 actually, came here before age 5) have cousins and uncles and aunts and grandparents in brownland. obviously there's a different, and there's a qualitative difference in the visceral reaction and a different sent of norms which one uses to filter through current events, but i think i'm misunderstanding you, or, you're soft-pedaling how aware most ABDs are about the human element of our connection to brownland. OTOH, i think it would be true that we're less than well informed about the bigger issues re: south asian geopolitics. obviously an ABD's personal and emotional connection to brownland(s) going to be less intense than someone whose formative experiences were abroad, but when something happens in bangladesh i immediately call my mother to check that all my dozens of near relations are OK. i'm sure i'm not the only one.

full disclosure: i'm one of those cool, sufi bon vivants, but not to play into stereotypes too much, I'm bangladeshi. oh and i have NO problem self-identifying as south asian, since, strangely enough, i've never found the two terms to be mutually exclusive. i'm also one of those goofy progressives who doesn't hate india, isn't ashamed to be muslim AND south asian and thinks that dwelling on differences is so passe and working together (both within the south asian community and with other communities) might actually be a worthy goal. it makes me sad that instead of having a conversation about the topic at hand (the National Action Agenda) and reading through it and testing out its strengths and weaknesses people are slinging mud, taking potshots and using divisive (and sometimes downright racist) rhetoric to derail the conversation. maybe what i'm saying has little value to you because i'm bangladeshi, or because i'm muslim or even because i'm a woman, but i've always found that using my own personal experience to make assumptions about everyone else's stories or picking on people who don't agree with me was simply bad manners. i don't pretend to know what other people go through just based on my own experiences and i think its sad that people can't decide which is worse: being lumped into a category with people you find distasteful or lumping others into categories because you find them to be distasteful. anyways, that's my position and if you disagree that's fine by me...

Two issues that should on an agenda:
1. Resolution to the Kashmir issue
2. Resolution to the civil war in Sri Lanka

to be clear, i think where ABDs are really weak and americo-centric is on the level of geopolitics. where i think a lot of DBDs undersell the connection is on the personal/human level. also, please do remember that all of us raised in this country were probably the "indian kid" in our classes while we were growing up. we don't have to "admit" to ourselves where we were born, we're quite aware and were reminded rather frequently....

. we don't have to "admit" to ourselves where we were born

or, where our ancestors for those born here. sorry, interjected by own birth abroad....

Uh, I bet ideas about a 'resolution to the Kashmir' issue would break down pretty differently between ABDs and DBDs, and, also, those with particular political affiliations. That's the problem with this kind of thing - unless, as was said above, it's about very broad issues such as civil liberties, I don't see such organizations having much widespread participation. I mean, what righty or free trader South Asian isn't going to be leery about the use of 'economic justice' above?

Like, I said, if you want it to work you are better off having an umbrella organization that just blandly encourages everyone to 'get involved' and have members of all political and advocacy groups a part of this larger umbrella organization. Even then, I still don't see this working. Or at least, being representative of more than a part of the larger community.

47 · Sulabhv: I did not get the salvation army part

17 · Sharmishtha: So next time you see a DBD grad student picking through the piles of clothing at Target, do consider the circumstances, instead of dismissing them as cheap.

22 · jyotsana: Target? That's posh. How about Salvation Army?

Thats what Razib was referring to.

speaking of economic justice, this sticks out from the above list of things that are supposed to bring all us South Asians together: Ensure access to fair and affordable credit for immigrants. I can see that being interpreted in many ways, given our current economic issues......

please do remember that all of us raised in this country were probably the "indian kid" in our classes while we were growing up. we don't have to "admit" to ourselves where we were born, we're quite aware and were reminded rather frequently....

Kleenex chahiye?

Get a life. Wonder how one can call oneself "1.5" if one comes to US when he is 5.

as a self-identified wheat-american, i think we need an organization where I can just watch mollywood and eat jalebis along with johnny walker black. oh...i'd like the soundtrack replaced with bob dylan.

58 · vivek said

Kleenex chahiye?

Get a life. Wonder how one can call oneself "1.5" if one comes to US when he is 5.

I don't think we should be in the business in telling how an individual wants to identify himself. The problem comes when you see political mileage in the formation of an identity that does not really exist. Or if the purpose of such an identity is intentionally racist or divisive and more-so in this case, self-flagellation.

Socio-Cultural identity cannot be scientifically defined but can still be subject to peer-review. And those critiques should be constructive.

"Joe, none of the neighbors I had before you were half the man you are. And since you are half a man yourself, that makes them into some sort of fraction I cannot figure out"

Anyone who thinks that Hindus and Muslims can get along together to achieve same goals needs to study history of the subcontinent over the past millenia. Dont people see any meanings in creation of the Pakistan?

I second that ISA comment. An ISA dominated by FOBs has a completely different mandate (airport pickups, temp acco etc) than an "South Asian Asso" (Indian "culture" which means dance from phony Bollywood songs).
For the nth time. Dancing to the tune of "bholi si surat, aankhon mein masti" is not Indian culture.

Moreover

When I talk to ABD kids who want to join my Fraternity or when I just interact with them. They all have a common theme about a change in treatment post 9/11 for a little period, from there peers.

You and I have not been in High School or Middle School environments post 9/11 where our peers are as educated/accepting/open minded/mature as the ones we've encountered in our sheltered College environs have been. We have NOT been through the same experiences. So before you start handing out kleenex's, save some for the results of your own mental masturbation.

there - their...

I hate myself so much for that!

RahulD

>>Thats what Razib was referring to.

Thanks for that RahulD.

How does RahulD know that

"I have not been in High School or Middle School environments post 9/11 where our peers are as educated/accepting/open minded/mature as the ones we've encountered in our sheltered College environs have been. We have NOT been through the same experiences."

Easy on the assumptions, yeah?

Maybe its hard for RahulD to imagine that an ABCD can be opposed to the idea of "South Asia".

So much for NOT stereotyping.

65 · vivek: How does RahulD know that

My bad, I shouldn't have jumped the gun on that and made those assumptions.

But that begs me to wonder, if you HAVE been through the same experiences and you are not empathetic - well where is the progress of knowledge or understanding?

Now go and pick on the points that I made that are actually more thoughtful.

Okay you want me to be emphatic?

"Wonder how one can call oneself "1.5" if one comes to US when he is 5."
"Dont people see any meanings in creation of the Pakistan?"
"temp acco etc" "South Asian Asso"

Your phraseology and verbage are NOT the product of Amreekan Publik Edumacation, they are from the same NCERT, SSC, ICSE Grammar & Composition of India, that I grew up on.

Besides, if you want to be called an "ABCD", I'm sure you can form your own group along with all those other "ABCD"s who want to form the "ABCD's against South Asia"

One major difference between us DBDs and the ABDs we are not worried about our dientity. Most of us are very happy with what we are and have no "identity" issues. Endless navel-gazing annoys us.

Desi_Like_You : at #17. Loved your post, we need more of that attitude.

There is a big contrast between a newly arrived DBD and an ABD, but over time this gap of culture, accent, outlook only narrows, the extent can be more or less depending on individual. Sooner we find that in the eyes of a non south asian we are pretty much same, better it will be for us. I think this effort to find a common minimum agenda is a step in the right direction!

Nara,

Are you for real? It is difficult growing up when you are the only brown kid around. I am not sure how you can discount someone's legitimate issues with a broad brush. I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it can be. DBDs have no identity issues because for most part they grew up around people who looked like them and they were not constantly asked where they were from. I think little respect goes a long way.

Unfortunately, I am. Some identity issues are to be expected when you grow up with the other but excess is the norm among ABDs. Just pick up a Jhumpa Lahiri's book if you want to see what I am talking about.

one finds three Sikh advocacy groups endorsing the agenda (SALDEF, Sikh Coalition, and United Sikhs), but not, as far as I can tell, any groups that are specifically oriented to advocacy for Hindus, Muslims, Jains, or Desi Christians

Punjabi Sikh men were some of the first South Asians immigrants in the US, when India was still under British rule. Because they were familiar with dealing with the British legal/political system, they were also some of the first/only Asian immigrants to become engaged politically at that time. Perhaps this is just their legacy?

72 · Nara said

Just pick up a Jhumpa Lahiri's book if you want to see what I am talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirad_C._Chaudhuri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V.S._Naipaul

well nara, its probably a class thing more than an abcd thing. when you're an artist or ivy leager or blog commentator you like to analyze the minutiae in ways real people don't. so like this kid in jr high asked me why he never sees me in hebrew school and i replied i'm not jewish resulting in him asking why then is there a jew in my name. been pro-israel ever since.

Vivek: Most South Asianists blame partition on us Hindus, so the meaning progressives derive is that "you can't live with Hindus". This enables them to shout about plebiscite in Kashmir, effectively a vote for ethnic cleansing, while saying they have no conflict with living in a pluralistic democracy like the US.

Anyone who thinks that Hindus and Muslims can get along together to achieve same goals needs to study history of the subcontinent over the past millenia. Dont people see any meanings in creation of the Pakistan?

I second that ISA comment. An ISA dominated by FOBs has a completely different mandate (airport pickups, temp acco etc) than an "South Asian Asso" (Indian "culture" which means dance from phony Bollywood songs).
For the nth time. Dancing to the tune of "bholi si surat, aankhon mein masti" is not Indian culture.

nara: Just pick up a Jhumpa Lahiri's book if you want to see what I am talking about.

Oh, anything but that. Where's Manish V when you need him?

Manju on July 17, 2008 05:40 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?) well nara, its probably a class thing more than an abcd thing. when you're an artist or ivy leager or blog commentator you like to analyze the minutiae in ways real people don't. so like this kid in jr high asked me why he never sees me in hebrew school and i replied i'm not jewish resulting in him asking why then is there a jew in my name. been pro-israel ever since.

Hope you are Man, or it would have been too much for that kid to handle :D

Punjabi Sikh men were some of the first South Asians immigrants in the US, when India was still under British rule. Because they were familiar with dealing with the British legal/political system, they were also some of the first/only Asian immigrants to become engaged politically at that time. Perhaps this is just their legacy?

This probably is a factor. And another factor is that groups like SALDEF, are very politically engaged and generally more progressive because of their experience in India; I know with SALDEF, some of the founders of that group, came to the US after suffering persecution and oppression in India in the '80s - after Indira Gandhi's assasination. I spoke with a SALDEF founder a few years back, and his experience in India, where his civil rights were violated and he was also tortured, makes him take more seriously about the idea of politically engagement in the US, be vigilant on a backslide in civil rights issues, and therefore fits in nicely with the progressive principles like SAALT - SALDEF like SAALT, seem to stress, a shared experience that all minorities can have in the US - and tries to unite on issues, that they think are better for American society as a whole - these issues cut across socio-economic differences or at least that is the thought.

i may be alone here, but i'm just thrilled to see all this disunity and infighting here. that's the desh i love. none of that lame fuzzy communal unity for us. divided we rise.

the more i think about it, moornam's theory of india as natural chaotic libertarian paradise makes sense.

...natural chaotic libertarian paradise makes sense.

it's left-liberal. left-liberal brownz, i.e., most brownz, should support it. non-left-liberal brownz should oppose it because it is opposed to their political orientation.

This is key. The trick is to understand what's "South Asian" about it in an American context, what's "left-liberal" about it (in an American context), and what's American about it, in an American context. And pick a strategy after that. For example, I think the agenda is really very good for an American context but it doesn't go far enough on immigration and worker rights.

I don't understand these comments about "oh this will never happen"--so what if it takes fifteen years? Half of Rome wasn't built in a day ;)

One major difference between us DBDs and the ABDs we are not worried about our dientity. Most of us are very happy with what we are and have no "identity" issues. Endless navel-gazing annoys us.

This is needlessly divisive. British colonial practices were ALL ABOUT identity politics, hence the legacy in South Asia. You think the idea of "India" and the idea of "Pakistan" are not contested in those countries? That people don't worry about identity in Sri Lanka? That people in Gujarat and in Delhi, both sites of pogroms by the BJP and Congress respectively, don't involve identity? That feminists in South Asia don't struggle with class, caste, religion, ideology, and other factors in addition gender? That casteism doesn't involve a form of "identity"?

It's more accurate to say that:

a) ABD identity politics is annoying to you; fair enough, I agree with what I think razib was saying that it can get excruciating to read variations on the same conversation time and time again, so I can't imagine what it's like for a non-ABD; and
b) that politics of "identity" takes many different forms in different contexts.

progressives have a simpler word for it, feudal.

well, told you they where eurocentric. but if marx's right, capitalism inevitably rises from its demise

you have to live in a freakin cocoon to think this is an agenda that'll create solidarity among various south asian communities. there's not even an attempt to embrace the diversity that is desi outside of that diversity palpable to progressives trained in, may i say, western theories of social justice. and in the same breath they'll probably label jindal white-washed.

So they want to eliminating voter intimidation and suppression but no desire to end voter fraud by groups like ACORN, that dilute our hard earned vote. they want to ensure a decent wage w/o a word for the desi 7-11 owner who must provide it. tenets right are important but not property rights. yeah, desis don't aspire to own property and came here for freedom right, not money. they want access to credit but not a word for what that'll do to the models of all the desi analysts on wall street who provide the credit in the first place.

Stop being such a reactionary. It's not good for the world.

84 · Dr A Wants His Handle Not Censored By The Spam Filter said

Stop being such a reactionary. It's not good for the world.

Hmmm? that's deceptively convincing. sort of the political equivalent of the 'ol "take off your clothes" line.

47 · Sulabh said

Razib

[quote ---- ]a lot of the criticisms of ABDs are probably valid, but isn't this just dumb? i mean, come on, ABDs were/are almost all raised by immigrant parents. the DBD at the salvation army was our parent![end quote ---]

I did not get the salvation army part and I was not commenting on the parenting style of a DBD parent of an ABD kid, infact I dould learn a lot from your parents about raising an ABD.

My point was that most ABDs are largely untouched by the politics of South East Asia so they have a somewhat high level/superficial idea about that region. This is not true for DBDs. For example news of a bomb blast in Mumbai or Dhaka is experienced differently by ABDs and DBDs - ABDs lament lack of security, poor infrastructure, 'why can't these people get along', 'where does this event fit the larger geo political picture' BUT for DBDs it is about staying up all night making phone calls to make sure that none of their friends or family members got hurt.

Another example - in this blog (which is run by ABDs) a lot of respect if accorded to an ABD veteran/member of Armed/Security Forces (WMD sleuth) - at the same time Armed Forces of a South Asian country are mocked. In fact a blogger made a really crude comment after an attack on a camp where some Police personnel were killed in India ( cuz out there all Police is bad and they violate human rights). For DBDs this type of news is distressing if he/she has a parent living in that region.

Relationships between South Asian countries is contentious to say the least, local newspapers and TV reflect that reality and strong opinions are formed. Often DBDs carry this baggage with them where ever they migrate to. ABDs have no such context so they are more concerned about empowering "da brownz".

Sulahb,

I have the utmost respect for members of the Indian armed forces. Heck my relatives are in the Indian Army. Where do you get off saying that ABDs that serve their country are accorded more respect. Trust me I'm thankful when someone says something good about my service. I feel the same way about my relatives. They want to protect the desh they were born in. I want to protect the land where I was born. Plain and simple. America is my home, just like Bharat is your home.

Manish

48 · Bridget Jones said

And there is less of pan-Indianness in the Indian students association than it appears on the surface.

It's the other way round. South Asian associations for the most part tend to be anti-a-particular-community (at best tepid wrt it), revel in some mythical "shared values" of secular groups (yeah, right a religious state, with parties subscribing to its tenets becomes "secular"), and decry if not ignore the pan-Indianness that comes from 10s of official languages, and 100s of communities and traditions that are celebrated daily. Instead comes political correctness that converts a truly inclusive and multicultural phenomenon such as Di(pa)vali into a abomination called "Aawaz", and along with that comes calls for "autonomy" for a certain region of India. But reality catches up sooner or later. So even "South Asian" associations that set out to defang the reality of India's centrality (due to geography and history) end up becoming "Indian" because of the sheer numbers, and the imbalance of the agenda. Let's say we discuss electoral politics, there are at least 2 every year in India and it is riveting stuff. What do we balance that with, coups and dictators? So gradually the phoney South Asian "identity" gives way to a truly multi-cultural Indian identity. Every land in the present day SAARC is endowed with enough vitality and culture to have its own group. Why merge this into a mish-mash of nonsense?

Stop being such a reactionary. It's not good for the world.

Hmmm? that's deceptively convincing. sort of the political equivalent of the 'ol "take off your clothes" line.

When there are no means to convince, sometimes it is best to simple articulate one's self to set the terms of disagreement as one sees them for one's self and sense of sanity. Keeps the conversation a lot shorter too. ;)

Manish_y

[quote ----]
Where do you get off saying that ABDs that serve their country are accorded more respect
[unquote ----]

Please read my comments I am talking about "this" blog, just go through the archives to verify.
BTW: I am an American and I am thankful to you for your service to my country.

been pro-israel ever since.

I know. Cant believe that we have to continue to occupy those pesky Palestinians.

31 · RahulD said

The Bangladeshis believe that Mukti Bahini rose up and defeated all the West Pakistani oppressors through sheer strength of will and superior military tactics, by themselves. India had "military observers" and the bloody telegram never happened.

That's not true Rahul. The ones who decry India also decry the Liberation.

Regardless of the differences between ABD's and DBD's and their self-identification, there are a fair number of
issues that they can share a common stand on under a minimal "South Asian" umbrella, i.e those problems faced by
Desis due to connections with and origins in South Asia, including civil liberties, ethnic profiling, discrimination,
and hate crimes. Regardless of whether your parents moved here from India 50 years back, or whether you just moved
here last week (or regardless of your identification with South Asia, one of the countries/communities of the Desh,
or a third-country from the diaspora), you're equally likely to be the target of hate crimes or on the spot "ethnic profiling".

SAALT's agenda on the other hand, while it does support those issues that affect Americans originally from the
Desh(s), is overly broad and also supports some broader left-wing issues that large parts of the community won't
support.

SAALT's agenda on the other hand, while it does support those issues that affect Americans originally from the
Desh(s), is overly broad and also supports some broader left-wing issues that large parts of the community won't
support.

i remember when i was interested in the history of the gay rights movement back in the early days there was a debate about focusing on gay rights in a specific and narrow way which most gays could agree on (bad then, this involved repealing sodomy laws, clamp downs on gay establishments, anti-discrimination, etc.), or try and integrate themselves into a broader left social justice movement. obviously the outcome wasn't and isn't black or white, but in the early days it seems that the narrow focus angle won out because they judged that there were marginal returns on a few issues that everyone could agree on as opposed to focusing on lots of broader issues which might have shrunk their membership down to a very left-wing activist core.

71 · umber desi said

DBDs have no identity issues because for most part they grew up around people who looked like them and they were not constantly asked where they were from

A perfect retort to such non-innocuous questions would be to ask the questioner as to which European country he/she is from or maybe ask whether he is Irish-American, Italian-American or German-American ?

A perfect retort to such non-innocuous questions would be to ask the questioner as to which European country he/she is from or maybe ask whether he is Irish-American, Italian-American or German-American ?

i've stated this before, but i want to add that "where are you from" is a lot less common today than it was 20 years ago, and tends to come form older people (boomers on up) who grew up in a black-white america.

i used to work at amnesty international when they struggled with issues similar to what razib decribes in the gay rights movement. there was constant pressure on the organiztion to expand out into broader issues progressives though intricately connected to AI core mission: freeing prisoners of conscience. But AI wanted to remain as non-political as possible, keeping a broad membership, although its members where pretty left of center anyway.

well the issue on the table was whether to condemn apartheid, which would seem like a slam dunk except AI did not like to take ideological stands. but most people there wanted to come out against apartheid since it is, by definition, a violation of basic human rights. but i threw out on the table the notion that so was communism, by definition, at least in the marxist-lennist sense. and, you might be surprised, they took that argument very very seriously...how could they consistently come out against apartheid while leaving communism alone, at least theoretically.

well i lost, after al i was just a teenager. and i'm sad to see AI mission continue expanding, and even shrink in in regards to Prisoners of conscience..as those jailed for hate speech no longer qualify.

95 · razib said

i've stated this before, but i want to add that "where are you from" is a lot less common today than it was 20 years ago

do you guys remember: "what does your father do?"

been pro-israel ever since.

Good to see some one else here that supports the good guys.

Cant believe that we have to continue to occupy those pesky Palestinians.

pesky?????????????

A perfect retort to such non-innocuous questions would be to ask the questioner as to which European country he/she is from or maybe ask whether he is Irish-American, Italian-American or German-American ?

Unless I'm mistaken over 70% of desi/south asians in the United States are born outside of the country. It probably the same for all groups outside of white, black and native americans.

i'm just thrilled to see all this disunity and infighting here. that's the desh i love. none of that lame fuzzy communal unity for us. divided we rise. the more i think about it, moornam's theory of india as natural chaotic libertarian paradise makes sense.

You two are ignorantly confusing the chaos of India and the intractable divisions among desis with libertarianism. What exactly do you find libertarian in the caste system?

100 · Kaka said

What exactly do you find libertarian in the caste system?

ur asking the wrong person prema. i'm a wheat skinned italian jew. can't you tell by my name? lets grab some kimchi some time.

Unless I'm mistaken over 70% of desi/south asians in the United States are born outside of the country.

i think it's well over.

wait, is Kaka roach/prema?

Cease immigration enforcement at the workplace

Dont advocate for policies that serve to dilute the "rule of Law". Lobby to change the law - certainly. But to lobby against enforcement is outrageous.

This concept of South Asia at least in the university campuses across North America is entirely bogus..........Muslim students from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh wholeheartedly join the Muslim Students Association. Non Muslim Students from India, if they are in sufficient numbers, join to form the Indian Students Association. Indian Students of US Origin definitely do not want to be associated with the Indian Students Association patronized by students from India. To keep their identity separate they congregate to form the South Asian Students Association.......American born students of Indian Origin probably are ashamed to be associated with land of "snake charmers", and that is why they want to identify themselves as South Asians. However other communities such as the Filipina , the Vietnamese, the Chinese, the Iranians, etc join their respective associations irrespective of their country of origin. That is Vietnamese from Vietnam and Vietnamese from America together constitute and run the Vietnamese association. The same applies to the Chinese and other Asian communities.

Interesting summation of the issue lucidly presented. But what about the caste and regional divisions among hindu indians abroad?

Dont advocate for policies that serve to dilute the "rule of Law".

"rule of Law" is a logocentric linear concept which exists only to perpetuate the heteronormative white male patriarchy!

Hi, many interesting comments here. In your lingo I would be a desi living in desh. I was goaded into response over confusions over identity some ABDs have very naturally as compared to the DBDs. I believe the Dharmic solution is very clear on this - if you were born and raised in America you are American, and your allegiances should lie unequivocally with the Matrubhumi. You should embrace American culture and serve in its armed forces, disassociating yourself with everything that is Indian and India. By not doing so you are doing injustice to your host country by diluting its republican charachter. I don't know if thats how American society compromises on immigrant identity schisms, but you can no longer be Indian, because you were born in a Mleccha land as a Mleccha, beyond the Indus and the seas, and you better accept that. For the DBDs conversely India is the Matrubhumi and they must fanatically put its interests before trying to find convergence with the ABD community. Of course free choice overrides all these considerations, but I am given the dharmic view onlee.

"For the DBDs conversely India is the Matrubhumi and they must fanatically put its interests before trying to find convergence with the ABD community. Of course free choice overrides all these considerations, but I am given the dharmic view onlee."

Ok...all the Krishna murthis in America and in India are probably rolling their eyes right now at this insanely vapid analysis of "Dharma"

When FOBs and ABCDs get together in the US, which is the dominant culture every single time? I will allow you three guesses and you will get the right answer the first time. That's the reason why Sepia Mutiny has no FOB blogger, not even a token one. So much for grandiose schemes of South Asian solidarity!

The ABCD-centric world is so far away from the FOB-centric world. Your concerns are for people of your own kind and social mileau. The patronizing attitude towards FOBs doesn't change.

That is okay. My point here is that this myth of South Asia and a South Asian agenda is an ABCD creation that serves the ABCD purpose. What's in it for us?

but most people there wanted to come out against apartheid since it is, by definition, a violation of basic human rights.

What! You are against apartheid?

109 · brownfob said

When FOBs and ABCDs get together in the US, which is the dominant culture every single time? I will allow you three guesses and you will get the right answer the first time. That's the reason why Sepia Mutiny has no FOB blogger, not even a token one. So much for grandiose schemes of South Asian solidarity!

The ABCD-centric world is so far away from the FOB-centric world. Your concerns are for people of your own kind and social mileau. The patronizing attitude towards FOBs doesn't change.

That is okay. My point here is that this myth of South Asia and a South Asian agenda is an ABCD creation that serves the ABCD purpose. What's in it for us?

Well buddy I'm out of words to try to strike compromises. We have veered way off the topic which Amardeep originally informed us of and became a diatrabe between shades of the same color. Allright fine I'll bite. Listen someday you are going to have children and if they are born in the US, will they not be the ABCDs you so hate and then your children will think of you as that backwards FOB.

Think deeply about that last sentence. I'll tell you why as I mentioned earlier. I am married to an FOB who I acknowledge is more secure in her "Indianess" then I am. Heck, I'm an old man compared to the others on this blog. I'm 40. But I'd rather be honest. I can remember when all the aunties and uncles used to say typical things about their kids back in the 80s and I would feel smug and mock their accent. Well just the other day my 10 year old son mocked my wife's accent. I can't tell you how infuriated I was. I made him apologize but then I realized I used to do the same thing. I felt superior because I had grown up here and felt I knew America and Americans better than those who hadn't walked the walk sort of speak. The way you see America and the way I see America is different that's all. I'm sure you're experience in India is not at all what I feel when I visit once every 5 years. But overtime you will adapt to us and we will adapt to you. Personally you are not a token. Again nice to have other viewpoints.

To get back on topic, I like the concept of SAALT but its manifesto does seem right out of La Raza as someone mentioned earlier. However the points about violence against women is correct, this needs to be addressed and concrete steps taken to eliminate it from our community (whichever country you are from in the subcontinent).

That is okay. My point here is that this myth of South Asia and a South Asian agenda is an ABCD creation that serves the ABCD purpose. What's in it for us?

Green cards, citizenship, greater labor rights, a reduction in deportations, a reduction in the discrimination and/or bias you encounter whether on citizenship grounds or racial or language, etc. Benefits on areas of intersection (e.g. stopping domestic violence, promoting tolerance of homosexuality). But I agree there isn't enough focus on issues that affect South Asia. For example, even as an ABD, I think there isn't enough focus on U.S. foreign relations in the document and how they, for example, promote the nuclear standoff and militarism more generally in South Asia, among other things, or on international economic issues like allowing poorer countries (particularly the less powerful ones like Bangladesh or Nepal) enough policy autonomy to make their own decisions.

You do, however, have a space to voice criticisms exactly like this yours. I strongly encourage you to get in touch with the coalition that put this agenda together and ask them the same question--they're likely open to people from a diversity of social backgrounds.

105 · Kaka said

Interesting summation of the issue lucidly presented. But what about the caste and regional divisions among hindu indians abroad?

You should talk to a mandir/kovil administrator in Canada or the US to get a feel for it. A cousin of mine is, and I have some idea what it is like. Do your own heavy lifting, you will find it interesting. These "divisions" matter far, far less in India than they do in this part of the world. In India we grow up within silos and as we leave home for college, thence to work, we mingle and merge. The government sector and the colleges - especially in caste obsessed states such as Tamizh Nadu - do not let you forget who you are though. Some time in the late 1990s Pachaiappa's College in Madras - a bastion of "self-respect" movement in the decades before appointed a new principal from an under-represented community - a brahmin, a professor in the college with a fine record of teaching and research. The thuggish elements in the union and their sponsors outside the college - all wedded to "rationalism" "self-respect" "social justice" first threatened the principal and a few days later broke into his office and thrashed him to within an inch of his life. The principal being the enlightened person he is, even after having to spend a month in the ICU, refused to identify his attackers.

what really is specific to a "South Asian" in the above agenda?.

Whats interesting are the fairly active regional orgs (telugu, gujarati, marathi, konkani, punjabi etc.). the basic point is that there are many distinct indian cultures/languages and they would need to interact to form larger pan-indian groups, the FOB vs. ABD discussion is of marginal relevance. Whats the point of having pan-Indian groups that are mutually exclusive from the regional groups?

Other than accent and knowledge about recent India (in living there) and no parental-backup (other than the recent trend of rich kids), what are the so-called differences between ABDs and FOBs? I do understand that the threshold to entry to the US in the 90s and beyond has been lowered and that rich Indian kids study in undergraduate schools here.

My impression of this whole question is that we need to take a step back at things and consider how we are from a distance and at a different angle than up close and intensely defined.

The activists who attach so much energy to 'identity' and 'definition' are a hardcore and a minority of any populace within Desis. So those who are always itching about Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Indian, Pakistani, South Asian, whatever, they are the kinds of people that have time on their hands, often with a messiah complex either large or small (taking it upon themselves to define the 'identity' for individuals they don't know), and exercise themselves in the time consuming effort of delineating difference at a tribal level, emphasising difference, constructing borders and fences, and make a point of their activism to institutionalise these differences wherever possible.

The rest of the Desi populace is too busy studying, working, raising families, planning holidays, doing everything else that normal people do, than to worry about such things.

However, on an informal, grassroots level, there is an undeniable sensibility of shared experience, shared sensibility, a kinship between Desis of every different background. This is fluid, generous and intuitive. It lies beyond prejudice or favour. It's why Sikhs and Sri Lankans, Brahmins and Bangladeshis, Trinidadian's and Pakistanis, all hang out and read a blog like this. All varied, all different, but a certain, almost indefinable commonality keeps a vague unifying sense amongst people of brown descent in the diaspora.

Trying to define and elevate this is impossible. It manifests itself in art, in friendships, in experiences. When it is politicised, it turns into a tribalism sometimes benign in effect, but often, sadly, malignant in flavour and outcome.

Keep it informal is what I say.

99 · Suki Dillon said

Unless I'm mistaken over 70% of desi/south asians in the United States are born outside of the country. It probably the same for all groups outside of white, black and native americans.

111 · Desi_Like_You >> Listen someday you are going to have children and if they are born in the US, will they not be the ABCDs

This makes me wonder whether the so called "true american born and raised desis" are always a minority and perpetually on the brink of extinction considering that rising education levels of south-asian immigrants delays marriageable age and hence kids, booming world economy means that south-asian immigrants are going to relocate back to india or somewhere else mid-career.

Hi everyone,

My name is Priya Murthy and I am the Policy Director at SAALT. SAALT is a coordinating member of the National Coalition of South Asian Organizations which has produced A National Action Agenda. First, I wanted to thank Amardeep for posting about the action agenda. We are glad to see that it has generated so much discussion.

To clarify, the purposes of presenting A National Action Agenda are to: raise awareness about the needs of South Asians in the U.S.; to insert issues affecting South Asians into local, state, and national dialogues; to guide future policy recommendations; to increase public understanding of the depth and scope of our community’s needs; and to enhance ongoing and future advocacy, organizing, and educational efforts.

While many of the issues and recommendations may resonate with other immigrant communities, A National Action Agenda analyzes them as they uniquely affect the South Asian community. We encourage individuals to read A National Action Agenda in its entirety which provides statistics, examples, and concrete recommendations specific to South Asians. For example, within the civil rights and civil liberties section, it is noted that various federal government agencies have investigated over 750 incidents involving violence, threats, vandalism, and arson against South Asians, Muslims, Sikhs, and Arabs in the United States between 9/11 and March 2007. As a result, the action agenda offers concrete recommendations to policymakers to address this very important issue, such as enacting legislation at the state and national level that will effectively address these types of incidents and urging government agencies to increase outreach and Know Your Rights materials in South Asian languages for those affected by hate crimes.

Again, we invite individuals to read the document in its entirety, which can be accessed here, to learn more about a range of issues affecting South Asians. We acknowledge that individuals may differ with some of the issues and recommendations included in the action agenda. However, we hope that the National Action Agenda is a step forward in identifying the cross-cutting issues affecting community members and will lead to productive dialogues around solutions. All the organizations in the National Coalition is committed to transparency and open dialogue with all community members. Please feel free to contact us if you have any questions about the process that led to the development of A National Action Agenda, the organizations that have endorsed it, or the issues highlighted within it, by contacting the SAALT office at (301) 270-1855 or saalt@saalt.org.

Priya Murthy, SAALT

It is simple because, most South Asians do not want to be identified with the land of Snake Charmers, Women Burners, Casteists, Minority abusers, etc etc. That is why you have the charade of South Asian Music, even though the rigor and grammar of that music is distinctively Indian or based on the Indian meme; or South Asian Movies even though 99.9% of the movies are produced in India; South Asian religion, even though all the religions born in the Indian subcontinent have a common Indian meme of Karma & Dharma; or South Asian Dances, even though Bharata Natyam, Kuchipudi, Mohiniyattam, etc are all inspired the very same Bharatas Natya Shastra; This charade of South Asia will go on for some more years. When the inevitable happens ( India’s rise) after some 50 years, then you will find all the South Asians wanting themselves to be identified as Indians. What these South Asians do not know is the exact history behind the origin of the word South Asia. Almost 4 decades ago when Kissinger realized that the pet American dream of treating India and Pakistan as equal equal failed, he hit upon a diabolical plan of denying India its history and heritage. His idea was to rename the subcontinent as South Asia, and he passed orders to that effect, and in due course time, all universities in the US had a South Asian department where they predominantly analyze South Asian problems such as, Casteism in India, Dowry burning in India, Treatment of Minorities in India, Dalit treatment ( as if American Natives, Aborigines etc are treated very well) etc. And that name has stuck very well going by the flourishing community of South Asians in America. One would never ever be able to find the word South Asia anywhere in the lexicons prior to 1971. And look how successful they have been in creating the wonderful community of South Asians from nowhere, from an entity that was always called Bharat (by Sanskritists)/Hindustan ( By common people)/ Al-Hind ( by the Arabs and other Middle Easterners), /the subcontinent ( by the British) . Yet, at the end of the day, one question remains unanswered, and that is why do all Asian communities, other than the ones belonging to the subcontinent, identify themselves in North America based on their pre-migration nationality, irrespective of their actual country of birth?

Almost 4 decades ago when Kissinger realized that the pet American dream of treating India and Pakistan as equal equal failed, he hit upon a diabolical plan of denying India its history and heritage. His idea was to rename the subcontinent as South Asia, and he passed orders to that effect, and in due course time, all universities in the US had a South Asian department where they predominantly analyze South Asian problems such as, Casteism in India, Dowry burning in India, Treatment of Minorities in India, Dalit treatment ( as if American Natives, Aborigines etc are treated very well) etc.

I always find it strangely reassuring to know that Hindu fanatics living in the West are more often than not every bit as lunatic, paranoid, conspiracy minded and mangled by a self-perpetuating victimhood complex as their Muslim fanatic counterparts, who make the mistake of shouting so loudly about it. It really brings a warm feeling to my soul. Now that really is 'South Asian' unity and commonality.

( To Pablo ) Sir please do not call me a Hindu Fanatic. I am an atheist. Please research to find out if there is an element of falsehood in what i have written. I write based on facts. Your post gives a very clear indication that you are trying to play equal equal game. I have not used the word Hindu or Muslim in any of my postings; nor am I a Hindu fanatic . I am not playing victimhood complex here. That India has been abused the most by the west is an accepted fact, and Indians naturally have to be cautious when dealing with the west; for a more clearer understanding of what happened during the 1971 war please read the Kissinger-Nixon-Chou debate about India. This is not my concoction please.

120 · Pablo: I always find it strangely reassuring to know that Hindu fanatics living in the West...

It took one comment for someone to jump the gun and bring in the term "Hindu Fanatic"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my belief that a lot more people here accord a certain respect to AIPAC (sometimes deservedly so) or even CAIR, that they would not to a Policy Forum that would concentrate on say "American-Hindu Relations." My belief could be misplaced on this, but I would lay a bet on it that People-with-Ancestors-of-Indian-Origin (just being PC) would link such a policy forum to "those Hindutva VHP terrorists."

Now I'm not going to discuss the merits or have the time to discuss the demerits of the VHP, but there is this notion that anyone who does not adhere to the "egalitarian beliefs" and the "progressive merits" of a South Asian agenda is a Hindu Fanatic and hence should be discounted or referred to with sarcasm or such.

I was jerked out of actually perusing the agenda (rather than glancing over it like I did the first time) and I still do not get this mythic notion of South Asia. Yes it is a "pan" whatever concept, but as a realist I do not see the divide on geographic or economic lines. I won't buy into the Kissinger conspiracy theory, it is ridiculous to think of it that way and if India had truly remained Non-Alligned it would have never run into the problem of facing Kissinger's Chanakya-neethi anyway.

Now back to the Agenda...

Anyone who thinks that Henry Kissinger initiated a conspiracy to create a university system of 'South Asian Studies' to chip away at the self esteem of 'Indian identity' by focussing on things like gender, caste, minorities (as though these are the only things South Asian faculties focus on!), is clearly deluded, paranoid, and a conspiracy theorising simpleton.

'Hindu Fanatic' comes into the equation because it is Hindu Nationalist fanatics, those who conflate Indian with fealty to Hindu nationalism, it is these people who have launched internet jihads against academics engaged in study they find hurts their sentiments, who by this exquisite logic of theirs, are actually part of a conspiracy (initiated by Kissinger no less!) to destroy them, who are at the heart of this paranoid, chippy, thin skinned paranoia.

Oooh wait. I must be part of the conspiracy too. Damn, I've given myself away.

Now I'm not going to discuss the merits or have the time to discuss the demerits of the VHP, but there is this notion that anyone who does not adhere to the "egalitarian beliefs" and the "progressive merits" of a South Asian agenda is a Hindu Fanatic and hence should be discounted or referred to with sarcasm or such.

True.

To me the very concept of South Asia is to deny the "Indian" identity. American born students of Indian Origin probably are ashamed to be associated with land of "snake charmers", and that is why they want to identify themselves as South Asians.

Actually, not in the slightest! We ABDs use South Asia as a way of distinguishing ourselves from Native Americans in the eyes of other Americans.

Also, as has been observed elsewhere, not all of us are the children of doctors, and not all of us are confused. But we're underrepresented in ISAs because we're off studying ... or hanging out with mixed ethic groups like the Physics club or Science Fiction society. :D

The college I went to had a large enough desi population such that there were separate organizations for Indians, Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis, along with religious organizations for Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, and even Jains and Indian Christians. but for schools with much smaller desi population, (where forming such groups would be impossible),i would think that a South Asian organization would do the trick because the (mostly) ABD students can all relate to curry, Bollywood, and bhangra while still speaking in Amrikan English.

i dont see this as being any different from the "Indian" culture prevalent among Indian youth today. feel free to jump on me if you disagree, but when i was in Bombay about a year ago, my cousins and their peers (late teens early twenties) were far more interested in Bollywood, cheesy Hindi pop,and picking up girls using English (apparently that works better than Hindi) than they were in ghazals or poetry or listening to the sitar.

i think the pan subcontinental bond here in Amrika is not limited to ABDs. My parents feel more at home around Pakistanis than they do with non SAsians, which i'm assuming has to do with the common language.

123 · Pablo said

'Hindu Fanatic' comes into the equation because it is Hindu Nationalist fanatics, those who conflate Indian with fealty to Hindu nationalism, it is these people who have launched internet jihads against academics engaged in study they find hurts their sentiments, who by this exquisite logic of theirs, are actually part of a conspiracy (initiated by Kissinger no less!) to destroy them, who are at the heart of this paranoid, chippy, thin skinned paranoia.

There is no concept of a jihad in Sanatana Dharma, nor is there a concept that is so inherently violent as the "lesser Jihad" in ANY religion. Such terms are not interchangeable.

According to you, this monolithic Hindu l3g10ns 0f d0oM is true and mad haxx0rz all academics or "rational" scientists on the interwebz. Most of the people who are part of the actual "action" part that indulges in violence are probably illiterate except for Friday evening readings of Sarvarkar's filth. But their sporadic activities get exclusive media coverage and self-righteous brow-beating from "True Indians". Because it is a KNOWN, DOCUMENTED FACT that all other communities in India are peace-loving except the ones that have not embraced the South Asian Ummah.

Since you want to flippant about it, please allow me to introduce myself - I'm part of the conspiracy that launches these internet battles...COINTEL?

125 · Annp: Actually, not in the slightest! We ABDs use South Asia as a way of distinguishing ourselves from Native Americans in the eyes of other Americans.

Well I don't think there are many Native Americans who refer to themselves as "Indians", even if they do that shouldn't be the reason why it should be "their word". If that is so, then shouldn't Columbus be their forefather?

This extremely accomodative attitude of letting go of the "divisive Indian-tag" and embracing the "South Asia" identity is as pretentious as Arundathi Roy's next book (or any of her previous ones for that matter)

When FOBs and ABCDs get together in the US, which is the dominant culture every single time? I will allow you three guesses and you will get the right answer the first time. That's the reason why Sepia Mutiny has no FOB blogger, not even a token one. So much for grandiose schemes of South Asian solidarity!

As our esteemed SM bloggers have repeatedly stated - SM is an American blog. Draw your own conclusions.

118 · Priya Murthy said

...against South Asians, Muslims, Sikhs, and Arabs...

And Priya, why this silence Establishment Clause related issues?

Hindus Join Christians and Jews in Opposing Religious License Plate in South Carolina
June 20, 2008 (Minneapolis, Minnesota)-- The Hindu American Foundation (HAF) again affirmed its track record as a leading proponent of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution by filing suit in federal court in South Carolina yesterday. Joining several Christian and Jewish leaders, the Foundation sued South Carolina state officials over a new state-approved license plate that would feature the words, “I Believe,” with a prominent yellow Christian cross and a multicolored stained glass church window in the background. HAF's co-plaintiffs include four South Carolina clergy – the Rev. Dr. Thomas A. Summers, Rabbi Sanford T. Marcus, the Rev. Dr. Robert M. Knight and the Rev. Dr. Neal Jones. The Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution guarantees the separation of church and state.

129 · jyotsana said

There's no SAALT in my city.

The National Agenda that the SAALT rep linked is endorsed by several regional or smaller organizations...they do all say "South Asian" prominently though.

Well I don't think there are many Native Americans who refer to themselves as "Indians",

Huh? Of course they do.

even if they do that shouldn't be the reason why it should be "their word". If that is so, then shouldn't Columbus be their forefather?

That's not the point. It's simply a matter of clearing up a persistent source of misunderstanding.

And what has Columbus got to do with anything?

This extremely accomodative attitude of letting go of the "divisive Indian-tag" and embracing the "South Asia" identity is as pretentious as Arundathi Roy's next book (or any of her previous ones for that matter)

Well, or put another way, it is a way of rendering yourself visible in a larger culture where you have been invisible. And it gives you the option of being inclusive, even if that option is most often honored in the breach. Sri Lankans and Bangaldeshis and Pakistanis are welcome.

I guess it is a bad thing if you think you are somehow less-authentically Indian because you say you are South Asian instead of Indian. But what use is that anyway for ABDs? Even those of us whose families hail from India have adopted this Indian identity instead of being Bengali, Punjabi or whatever. (And I'm Sindhi, so my claim to being *Indian* is even weaker ... I'm not Pakistani because I'm Hindu, but if I'm Indian it is based upon maps drawn by the British Empire ... ) It's all arbitrary.

116 · Pablo said

The rest of the Desi populace is too busy studying, working, raising families, planning holidays, doing everything else that normal people do, than to worry about such things.

Ahh yes, the desi sheeple...

131 · Annp

Well I don't think there are many Native Americans who refer to themselves as "Indians",

Huh? Of course they do.

No they don't

even if they do that shouldn't be the reason why it should be "their word". If that is so, then shouldn't Columbus be their forefather?

That's not the point. It's simply a matter of clearing up a persistent source of misunderstanding.
And what has Columbus got to do with anything?
The Indus river and the people in its vicinity have existed for, I'd say a reasonably longer time than when Native Americans were Christened into Indians. Correct me if I'm being too liberal in my estimates though.
Christopher Columbus trying to find a westward route to India and finding land and naming the people he met there as Indians...Does that make it sufficiently clear as to what Columbus had to do with Native Americans being Indians?

I guess it is a bad thing if you think you are somehow less-authentically Indian because you say you are South Asian instead of Indian. But what use is that anyway for ABDs? Even those of us whose families hail from India have adopted this Indian identity instead of being Bengali, Punjabi or whatever. (And I'm Sindhi, so my claim to being *Indian* is even weaker ... I'm not Pakistani because I'm Hindu, but if I'm Indian it is based upon maps drawn by the British Empire ... ) It's all arbitrary.

I do not have a problem with anyone calling themlselves South Asian or Indian or Harrappan or Dravidian or whatever. I think it is an infringement on your personal freedoms if anyone tells you or even makes you feel what you should call yourself. The problem comes when Policy is formed under these non-existant entities. Forming a policy forum that talks about "South Asia" will essentially undermine any LEGITIMATE causes that any other REAL (Hindu-American, Indian, Kashmiri Pandits) will have, in political, monetary, credibility and many other avenues. But then again, ethnic-cleansing isn't really all-that unless everyone at these South Asian tea-parties will agree it is one.

133 · RahulD said

Well I don't think there are many Native Americans who refer to themselves as "Indians",

Huh? Of course they do.

No they don't

I'll qualify what I said, after looking up more sources, I will give you that there are Native Americans who prefer American-Indian to Native-American...

However, I find it so absurd that you would want Indians to forgo the claim to the word. I'm strongly for assimilation, I do not like hyphenating identities, but forcing the concept that people should be South Asian rather than Indian, so that another group MUCH less in numbers and having a far shorter history of association with a (mis)label...would not be confused...Wow

And the people undermining your cause are all the pesky, Hindutva Jihadi Nazi, deodaignorant, heawy accented, South Asian separatists - you should work for the New Yorker

Does that make it sufficiently clear as to what Columbus had to do with Native Americans being Indians?

No.

I'll qualify what I said, after looking up more sources, I will give you that there are Native Americans who prefer American-Indian to Native-American...

Thank you. It is controversial within their community of course, but I'd say they have as much claim to the name "Indian" by now as they would like to have. It has been a little over half a millennium since Columbus's clerical error.

However, I find it so absurd that you would want Indians to forgo the claim to the word.

Well I'm glad you find that absurd, because I never said anything of the kind.

I said using the term South Asian is a convenience. It is useful. It helps us communicate to and with Americans of other ethnicities. It has nothing to do with being ashamed of our Indian-ness or any of that snake-handling nonsense. (BTW, to my mind, snake handlers are white Appalachian Pentacostal Christians! :D )

I'm strongly for assimilation, I do not like hyphenating identities, but forcing the concept that people should be South Asian rather than Indian, so that another group MUCH less in numbers and having a far shorter history of association with a (mis)label...would not be confused...Wow

I assume you are not an ABD.

In the US, the simple confusion around the word "Indian" renders our community invisible when speaking with the majority culture here for the excellent reason that American-Indians have a much longer history in this part of the world than we do. Anyone who grew up here had the experience of explaining over and over, "No, no, no ... Indian from INDIA."

If you are creating any kind of political coalition that purports to work within the US, it helps to be pragmatic about such things.

Of course you think that's a dubious activity anyway.

The problem comes when Policy is formed under these non-existant entities. Forming a policy forum that talks about "South Asia" will essentially undermine any LEGITIMATE causes that any other REAL (Hindu-American, Indian, Kashmiri Pandits) will have, in political, monetary, credibility and many other avenues.

Well, legitimacy depends on what your issues are. If this were about building coalitions on an international basis, I'd be inclined to agree with you. I assumed from the policies they discussed here that this group is about building power is in terms of US politics only. I may have misunderstood them. And if you are building a political coalition within the US, then you need to take local considerations into account.

Sir/Madam, cut the vitriol and try to first understand where we come from.

" using the term South Asian is a convenience. It is useful. "

Likewise, using the term Indian is useful. To us.

" Anyone who grew up here had the experience of explaining over and over, "No, no, no ... Indian from INDIA."

So ? Its not the end of the world. I am Indian. From India. If somebody confuses that with an American-Indian, I tell them not to. But to deny myself my identity because somebody else is confused, I mean, why should I ? Am I living my life or somebody else's life ? For that matter, I too may confuse say Irish from Scot and I'm sure they will explain the difference, not just roll over and drop dead, or worse, pretend they're all English and it doesn't really matter.

"it helps to be pragmatic about such things"

See, that's the whole problem right there. I am who I am. I will not bend over and drop my pants because it helps to be pragmatic. If you want, you bend over. I won't. See for ABD's, the big issue is to just get on with your life here in USA, so if South-Asian serves the purpose, you just roll with it. For DBDs, we've just now left India. We don't see returning to India just yet. At the same time, we don't see ourselves living here in the US forever. I mean, eventually we'll have to choose. But not just yet. Not yet. Most DBD's are in a pre-commitment stage, so we're not going to drop our Indian identity and say South Asian just because you want us to be pragmatic. Right now, we have the flexibility to stay Indian and yet partake of some of the wealth of USA, so we're doing that. The immigration visas give us that much flexibility. They give us the permission to be an Indian, from India, and not call ourself South Asian, and still work for an American company. So we're using that permission. The day they put a gun to our head and make us say South Asian, we'll think about it. Right now they haven't put that gun. I don't see why SM or SAALT or SAJA should put that gun. I mean, you aren't our mai-baap. You aren't putting food on my table. Then just because you say South Asian for your convenience, why do you expect me also to say it? I won't. Its not convenient to me. So I won't say it. First try to understand that.

104 · melbourne desi said

Cease immigration enforcement at the workplace

why? If someone is an illegal immigrant - kick the bugger out.

Dont advocate for policies that serve to dilute the "rule of Law". Lobby to change the law - certainly. But to lobby against enforcement is outrageous.

I agree. REPEAL THE LAW OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND NOW!

These "divisions" matter far, far less in India than they do in this part of the world.........The government sector and the colleges - especially in caste obsessed states such as Tamizh Nadu - do not let you forget who you are though. Some time in the late 1990s Pachaiappa's College in Madras - a bastion of "self-respect" movement in the decades before appointed a new principal from an under-represented community - a brahmin, a professor in the college with a fine record of teaching and research. The thuggish elements in the union and their sponsors outside the college - all wedded to "rationalism" "self-respect" "social justice" first threatened the principal and a few days later broke into his office and thrashed him to within an inch of his life.

You must have a serious problem thinking rationally jyotsana, cause you just contradicted yourself.

People are raped, abused and even killed based on casteism on a regular basis in India and you have the nerve to lie that caste divisions "matter far, far less in India than they do in this part of the world".

"rule of Law" is a logocentric linear concept which exists only to perpetuate the heteronormative white male patriarchy!"

Sometimes you're pure camp razib, but I'll play along.
Laws and rules were/are velly, velly important in India land too. There are no rule like brown rules as anyone traumatized by its bureaucracy can attest.

132 · Harbeer said

Ahh yes, the desi sheeple...

Yeah...the smart people and sheeple - the kind that have a job, health insurance and can afford to fly out to New Zealand for a six week vacation in times like these. The best rejoinder to the Karma of Brown Folk type of smear jobs is to go out and show that you are a smart sheep who makes good money while the pretentious sorts are scrounging around in scrap heaps.

138 · Kaka said

You must have a serious problem thinking rationally jyotsana, cause you just contradicted yourself.

Haha - Prema=Kaka=Ignoramus - You have a serious problem thinking, reading, writing.

131 · Annp said

Even those of us whose families hail from India have adopted this Indian identity instead of being Bengali, Punjabi or whatever. (And I'm Sindhi, so my claim to being *Indian* is even weaker ... I'm not Pakistani because I'm Hindu, but if I'm Indian it is based upon maps drawn by the British Empire ... ) It's all arbitrary

I think that may be true for immigrant parents for 60-70s of the Nehru-Indira era "nationalisation/Congress party monopoly" era where India was a much stronger sell than the individual identities of regions and states. Post Indira, the emphasis on federalism, multi-party rule, decenteralization with greater powers and autonomy to states and booming local economies in certain regions has led to stronger expression and identification of sub-indentites amongst Indians which they carry over to America when they emigrate. 80-90 desi parents are probably going to be less pan-Indian and more regional in thinking. They may be "Indian" in relation to globalization and booming Indian economy but with respect to socio-cultural values, family affairs they may be more regional and resist the pan-Indian straitjacketing.

Interestingly, one finds three Sikh advocacy groups endorsing the agenda (SALDEF, Sikh Coalition, and United Sikhs), but not, as far as I can tell, any groups that are specifically oriented to advocacy for Hindus, Muslims, Jains, or Desi Christians. I’m curious about where that seeming imbalance comes from.

Amardeep, I really don't know of any major organizations (in the US) that are oriented towards advocacy for South Asian Muslims; almost all "Muslim" organizations that I am aware of tend to also have a large contingent of members that are not desi. Perhaps this might explain why they haven't yet signed on to the agenda. For that matter, I don't really know of too many advocacy groups oriented towards South Asian Christians either.

Re 31:

The Bangladeshis believe that Mukti Bahini rose up and defeated all the West Pakistani oppressors through sheer strength of will and superior military tactics, by themselves. India had "military observers" and the bloody telegram never happened.

Why, thank you, RahulD, for speaking on our behalf and letting everyone know what we Bangladeshis believe. How did we ever get along for so long without having you as our spokesperson?

Seriously though, most Bangladeshis appreciate and are grateful for India's contributions to our Independence War -- which includes the Indian troops who fought on our behalf, the training and arming of the Mukti Bahini, hosting the government-in-exile, and taking care of our refugees. However, most of us are not naive enough to imagine that there weren't issues of realpolitik involved, or that this was done solely out of a sense of altruism. That we might air or discuss these issues should not be taken as somehow failing to appreciate India's support. Or did you believe all of Bush's "justifications" for invading Iraq?

Moreover, we lost many people in that war, both civilians and Muktijoddhas (freedom fighters). There are very few Bangladeshis of my generation who did not lose a relative or an acquaintance in 1971. The fact that we tend to dwell on who we lost, and are justly proud of their contributions, perhaps at the expense of singing daily paeans of praise to our ally, should also not be taken as somehow denigrating India's contributions.

heteronormative brown.

I find it interesting that many of the comments on this thread make out identity as somehow being something unitary. Personally, I seem to have overlapping sets of identities -- for instance, I am, among other things, Bangladeshi, Bengali, and also South Asian. There's a shared language, a shared literature, a shared cuisine and a shared ethnicity that I have in common with the people of West Bengal -- a commonality that I can only define as Bengali. There's also my identity as a Bangladeshi -- one I share with say, the Saotals, Chakmas, Monipuris, and Bengalis who inhabit Bangladesh. True, certain aspects of my identities are exclusive; for instance, being a Bangladeshi precludes me from being say, an Indian, a Pakistani, or a Sri Lankan, but I do share certain certain commonalities with them, one which falls under the rubric of South Asian or desi -- and I don't see why I can't also identify myself as such. It does not, after all, in anyway denigrate or diminish my other identities.

or instance, being a Bangladeshi precludes me from being say, an Indian, a Pakistani, or a Sri Lankan,

it precludes national identity, but what about cultural-civilizational-historical? this is a fine issue of language, but i think the analogy to what happened in brownland would be if every nation but spain and germany became part of a european super-state. all of a sudden there would be euorpeans, spaniards and germans. some germans by ethnicity would also live in europe, those who resided in switzerland and austria, for example. but would spaniards and citizens of the german nation-state not be europeans after the emergence of the european super-state?

to most DBDs these are not abstract questions i think. to someone like me they kind of are, and that's one reason i don't blow a gasket when people refer to me as "indian." the hiving off of pakistani & bangladeshi identity from an indian one is a feature of the last 3 generations, not a historically invariant one.

Shaad and Razib both make good points, at 146 and 147, and make them well.

I liked the Spain-Germany-Europe analogy. It's not just that the Pakistani and Bangladeshi identities - as national identities - are just 3 generations old. The future, perhaps less than 3 generations from now, may see a return to a civilizational entity called 'India', a geographical super-state called, perhaps, the 'South Asian Union', along with any number of sub-national identities - both geographic, as 'Bangladeshi', and linguistic - as 'Bengali', or ethno-linguistic - as 'Gorkha' or perhaps 'Chakma'.

Shaad's point about not viewing 'South Asian' as an identity which supercedes and subsumes other identities is right on. You are South Asian, but you can also be many other things.

Finally, it must be conceded that 'South Asia' as a term probably did arise in the Pentagon, but during WW-2, not with Kissinger. That's fine, when a term indicates something sensible, you grasp it. Later, if events move so that the term becomes less meaningful than simply saying 'India', then you can do that too. But that India won't refer to today's nation-state. The British had no use for the term 'South Asia', since the whole region was 'India' in their imagination. But South Asia, (like South-east Asia, which was 'Indochine' to the French) made a lot of sense when there came to be many nation-states sharing that geographic space.

In the earlier decades of the 20th Century, you will find the phrase 'North-east Asia' to refer to Korea, Eastern Siberia, Mongolia, Northern Japan, and Manchuria. But eventually, the unifying geographic elements in the phrase dropped off in importance, and the phrase moved out of circulation, while economic, national and subnational issues foregrounded themselves, so it's back to being 'Korea','Siberia', 'Japan' etc.

140 · jyotsana said

Yeah...the smart people and sheeple - the kind that have a job, health insurance and can afford to fly out to New Zealand for a six week vacation in times like these. The best rejoinder to the Karma of Brown Folk type of smear jobs is to go out and show that you are a smart sheep who makes good money while the pretentious sorts are scrounging around in scrap heaps.

Good for you, my friend, but you're getting pretty defensive over a silly joke--might be time for another vacation.

Was it Che Guevara who said "I'd rather die on my feet than live in gridlock commuting to/from the suburbs?" To each her own. I like what Lao Tzu has to say about vacationing.

New Zealand, eh? Interesting choice. ;-)

That's fine, when a term indicates something sensible, you grasp it.

were "hindus" self-conscious "hindus" as a religion (as opposed to just being another word for indian) before muslims declared them as such?

Shaad's point about not viewing 'South Asian' as an identity which supercedes and subsumes other identities is right on. You are South Asian, but you can also be many other things.

How is "South Asian" anything like "European"? The EU has a court & assembly. It has requirements for membership. Europeans have an idea of society based on humanism/Enlightenment. Does "South Asia" have anything like this in common besides a love for musicals with poor production values? The only requirement for being South Asian is being too much of a push over to correct Westerners when they assign the wrong provenance to you.

I see Chachaji of "Indians should make the first move and throw open its borders to Bangladeshis & Pakistanis" fame has chimed in to keep this discussion grounded in reality. I'll become South Asian when Bangladesh & Pakistan adopt secular constitutions. Right now they have nothing I want in terms of ideas, goods or human capital.

How is "South Asian" anything like "European"? The EU has a court & assembly. It has requirements for membership. Europeans have an idea of society based on humanism/Enlightenment. Does "South Asia" have anything like this in common besides a love for musicals with poor production values?

Sigh. Four years since this blog started and people are content having the same argument over and over and over and over again.

Re 147:

it precludes national identity, but what about cultural-civilizational-historical? this is a fine issue of language, but i think the analogy to what happened in brownland would be if every nation but spain and germany became part of a european super-state. all of a sudden there would be euorpeans, spaniards and germans. some germans by ethnicity would also live in europe, those who resided in switzerland and austria, for example. but would spaniards and citizens of the german nation-state not be europeans after the emergence of the european super-state?

I think at this point you have to start looking at both at the multiple meanings of labels and the emotional baggage associated with them. I, for instance, don't see a Bangladeshi national identity precluding a "cultural-civilizational-historical" (I'm going to abbreviate it to CCH) identity, but part of the issue is the label this identity comes wrapped in. The term Indian could indeed be used to describe this CCH identity; but the Indian label is also used to describe a national identity that Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, and Sri Lankans don't subscribe to. When other, probably just as effective labels for CCH identity are available (e.g. South Asian) which don't conflate the admittedly rather touchy national identities, why not use them?

In terms of the analogy you presented, the Spaniards and Germans would still be Europeans, simply not "European Super-Statists". I think Norwegians are presently a good example of this. They are Europeans, but currently not "European Unionists" (for lack of a better term). Note also that many Latin Americans also use the label "Americans" to refer to themselves and that some even take umbrage at US citizens using the term to mean exclusively US citizens.

to most DBDs these are not abstract questions i think. to someone like me they kind of are, and that's one reason i don't blow a gasket when people refer to me as "indian." the hiving off of pakistani & bangladeshi identity from an indian one is a feature of the last 3 generations, not a historically invariant one.

It's certainly not a historically invariant one. And I am certainly not averse to a pan-subcontinental identity (or even an association similar to the EU in the future; SAARC is somewhat of a step in this direction). All I am saying is that given the presence of overlapping identities, it's probably best to use labels like South Asian that cause the least amount of friction.

Re 150:

were "hindus" self-conscious "hindus" as a religion (as opposed to just being another word for indian) before muslims declared them as such?

Razib, I don't know.
But I think another question along these lines one could ask would be "Was there a group of people in the Indian subcontinent prior to the arrival of Muslims who identified themselves as being neither Jain nor Buddhist?"

How is "South Asian" anything like "European"? The EU has a court & assembly. It has requirements for membership. Europeans have an idea of society based on humanism/Enlightenment. Does "South Asia" have anything like this in common besides a love for musicals with poor production values?

this is a non-sequiter dude. i'm not particular invested in this argument so your huffing & puffing just amuses me (i actually agree that the 'south asianists' get too 'hegemonic' [what other word should i use?] with those of you who are hostile to the idea, i think everyone should chill, at least if they're american-identified or ABDs). you might know (or perhaps not), that the idea of europe existed before the EU, the EC, NATO, etc. in fact, i attempted to decouple the idea of india/europe from political systems, but you specifically used a political response point, which suggests that you just want to wave around d**b arguments and get into a screaming match instead of engaging. as for what they have in common...the bangladesh national anthem has lines from a song written by a man named tagore. that's not an argument, but a pointer to what i'm getting at (i'm sure you'll scream back incoherently).

All I am saying is that given the presence of overlapping identities, it's probably best to use labels like South Asian that cause the least amount of friction.

i agree. but i think the *friction* is contingent on recency of national origin. i think that cultural ties to the "old country" can be very healthy for any community. OTOH, i think a very visceral attachment to geopolitical considerations rooted in the "old country" can be problematic, especially for a new community attempting to forge a space for itself in this nation. strong distinctions between bangladesh and india are to me coincidences of geopolitics.*

your attitude to these issues are framed by your circumstances. many DBDs have been rather forceful that no matter their american citizenship much of their heart will stay with india. that's normal and natural. that being said, what about future generations? will they care about kashmir in the same way as they do now? i don't know, but i think that these sorts of geopolitical entanglements complicate things.

i myself will start a family in a few years. my children will be half-brown. i was born in bangladesh and raised in the united states. based on the values i have if they have any appellation given to them due to their brown ancestry i will probably tell them they're bengali, not that they're bangladeshi. bangladesh was less than 10 years old when i was born there, and i was less than 5 years old when i left. if my grandchildren think that they're part "indian" because they're stupid about geography as most americans are, and probably will be, i won't object too strenuously. i just hung out with a woman who is 1/4 polish, 1/4 lithuanian, 1/4 romanian and 1/4 english who told me that she is "mostly slavic."

* pakistan is different because i think pakistanis are much more invested in an idea of racial and cultural superiority by and large than bangladeshis because pakistani ethnic groups stand higher in racial status than the average indian while bangladeshis do not. additionally, the fact that bangladesh has a script which is not arabic despite its muslim religion means that it is not as cut off from this hindu cultural half in india as punjabis in pakistan are from those in india.

Razib: It's not all about you. My quote is taken from Chachaji. In any case as a man of science/boy wonder you will be able to genetically engineer Bangladeshis so they can thrive hydroponically so it's all good. Chachaji just wants India to take in more indigents without getting any land in return

louciecypher, unlike chachaji and you i don't care much about south asia. as long as there ain't no war, their business is there business so long as it doesn't mess with americaz business. but the geopolitical arguments seem excessively non-american in relevance for an indian american/south asian american weblog/whatever you want to call it american weblog.

why can't bangladeshis and pakistanis take ownership of the word india? just because a newly formed republic decided to name itself after a civilization in 1950? at least "india" has the hind->sind derivation and "hindustan" as a cognate. "south asia" is too deracinated, while we're at it we can replace "europe" with "northwest asia" to be more inclusive of Britain and Iceland. South ASia is a useful geopolitical term when we want to be inclusive of Afghanistan, Burma, and the Maldives, yet for civilizational identity purposes it would be a shame to let go of "india" and its cognates.

louciecypher, unlike chachaji and you i don't care much about south asia. as long as there ain't no war, their business is there business so long as it doesn't mess with americaz business. but the geopolitical arguments seem excessively non-american in relevance for an indian american/south asian american weblog/whatever you want to call it american weblog.

I agree with razib. Why should the ABDs care about the geopolitics of the regions where their parents come from?. They are a miniscule group that tries to get more numbers and hence more clout in a single-man single vote democracy and if they decide to use any name like "South Asia" / "Under Himalsyas" / "Above Indian Ocean" it is a non issue. I think the problem comes when this group tries to influence US policies in that region. There is really no "South Asian" identity in South Asia.

why can't bangladeshis and pakistanis take ownership of the word india? just because a newly formed republic decided to name itself after a civilization in 1950? at least "india" has the hind->sind derivation and "hindustan" as a cognate. "south asia" is too deracinated, while we're at it we can replace "europe" with "northwest asia" to be more inclusive of Britain and Iceland. South ASia is a useful geopolitical term when we want to be inclusive of Afghanistan, Burma, and the Maldives, yet for civilizational identity purposes it would be a shame to let go of "india" and its cognates.

I think this is what Jinnah wanted. He wanted the newly formed countries to be named as "Hindustan" and "Pakistan" and opposed the name of India to be given to the other dominion. The Congress leaders were shrewd enough to dismiss the idea outright stating that it is these folks who wanted to split and they have no right to name the other entity.

regarding the analogy with EU, I think India as of now fits the EU model with the constitution and stuff managing diverse states and languages.

EU is a christian/atheist majority with a secular constitution with the single defence force (NATO), single currency promising more or less the same rights for all its citizens of diverse languages and cultures sharing core values..

India is a Hindu majority with a secular constitution with a single defence force, single currency promising more or less the same rights for all its citizens of diverse languages and cultures sharing some core values.

Throwing Pakistan and Bangladesh into an union with India won't work atleast the way as it exists now. There are no shared values.

For applying a passport in Pakistan now, if you are a Muslim you have to sign the following.
http://www.pakistanconsulateny.org/PDF/form-a.pdf

I hereby solemnly declare that -

(i) I am Muslim and believe in the absolure and unqualified finality of the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the last of the prophets.
(ii) I do not recognize any person who claims to be a prophet in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever after Muhammad (peace be upon him) or recognize such a claimant as prophet or a religious reformer as a Muslim.
(iii) I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Quadiani to be an imposter nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to the Lahori or Quadiani group to be non-muslims.

Thumb impression.. Signature.

I don't think I'm ready to have a similar "shared value" in the case of India where I need to declare XXX caste to be outside of Hinduism while applying for my passport. :-)

Re 155:

All I am saying is that given the presence of overlapping identities, it's probably best to use labels like South Asian that cause the least amount of friction.

i agree. but i think the *friction* is contingent on recency of national origin. i think that cultural ties to the "old country" can be very healthy for any community. OTOH, i think a very visceral attachment to geopolitical considerations rooted in the "old country" can be problematic, especially for a new community attempting to forge a space for itself in this nation. strong distinctions between bangladesh and india are to me coincidences of geopolitics.*

your attitude to these issues are framed by your circumstances. many DBDs have been rather forceful that no matter their american citizenship much of their heart will stay with india. that's normal and natural. that being said, what about future generations? will they care about kashmir in the same way as they do now? i don't know, but i think that these sorts of geopolitical entanglements complicate things.

i myself will start a family in a few years. my children will be half-brown. i was born in bangladesh and raised in the united states. based on the values i have if they have any appellation given to them due to their brown ancestry i will probably tell them they're bengali, not that they're bangladeshi. bangladesh was less than 10 years old when i was born there, and i was less than 5 years old when i left. if my grandchildren think that they're part "indian" because they're stupid about geography as most americans are, and probably will be, i won't object too strenuously. i just hung out with a woman who is 1/4 polish, 1/4 lithuanian, 1/4 romanian and 1/4 english who told me that she is "mostly slavic."

No real disagreement here. My children will be half-brown too. They'll know about their half-Bengali (half-Bangladeshi), quarter-Dutch, quarter-American heritage, but can define their self-identities themselves. They can certainly decide for themselves where their priorities lie. Frankly, as long as they subscribe to say, generic Enlightenment values, I'll be quite happy.

* pakistan is different because i think pakistanis are much more invested in an idea of racial and cultural superiority by and large than bangladeshis because pakistani ethnic groups stand higher in racial status than the average indian while bangladeshis do not. additionally, the fact that bangladesh has a script which is not arabic despite its muslim religion means that it is not as cut off from this hindu cultural half in india as punjabis in pakistan are from those in india.

Agreed again. I think, from my er, atheistic perspective, Bangladeshis have actually been rather fortunate in this department. A cultural identity based primarily on the language prevents a Pakistani-esque fundamentalist Muslim religious identity from becoming predominant. The latter would require a Bangladeshi Muslim to sever himself from say Tagore and Rabindra Sangeet, Sharatchandra, and even much of Nazrul's poetry, and that is something I don't believe most Bangladeshis are willing to do.

Re 158:

why can't bangladeshis and pakistanis take ownership of the word india? just because a newly formed republic decided to name itself after a civilization in 1950?

Yes, at least, (I think) in the case of Bangladeshis. Sorry, rar, but I thought I had already touched on this upthread. People who have recently "realized" (as in actualized, not just thought of it) a national identity, realized it by eschewing another national identity, are unlikely to be comfortable with a label (India) that could be confused with a third national identity. Yes, it's not particularly rational, given that what we are talking about is using the label for the cultural-civilizational-historical identity, not the national identity, but that's human emotional baggage for you.

Re 161:

PS, good dig on the Pakistani passport. Seems to be targetted particularly against Qaidanis and Ahmadis. Neither the Bangladeshi nor the Indian passport application forms have any fields/queries regarding religion.

I don't think I'm ready to have a similar "shared value" in the case of India where I need to declare XXX caste to be outside of Hinduism while applying for my passport. :-)

That's opening another can of worms, isn't it, PS? A Bangladeshi could just as easily be justified in saying that she wasn't ready to have a similar "shared value" with another nation where, despite a professed secular constitution, what appears to be state-sanctioned (or at least state-government-looking-the-other-way-ish) religious riots and massacres can occur. For what it's worth, she might also point out that despite individual cases of religious discrimination, neither the EU nor Bangladesh have experienced such religion-based riots/massacres :-)

Let's not be naive. We can all play this game of one-upmanship; there are more than enough religious wackos in each of these "South Asian" nations that we can all point at and titter. And no one is trying to force these nations into a confederation or loose association immediately (that's something that I, and presumably Chachaji, believe will happen organically in the future). I just happen to think that there still enough similarities and commonalities (apparently we all like visiting and kvetching in this blog, for instance) between desis (ABDs, DBDs, Americans, Indians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans) that a label like "South Asian" is not entirely irrelevant.

That's opening another can of worms, isn't it, PS? A Bangladeshi could just as easily be justified in saying that she wasn't ready to have a similar "shared value" with another nation where, despite a professed secular constitution, what appears to be state-sanctioned (or at least state-government-looking-the-other-way-ish) religious riots and massacres can occur. For what it's worth, she might also point out that despite individual cases of religious discrimination, neither the EU nor Bangladesh have experienced such religion-based riots/massacres :-)

Sure, it is not my idea that "South Asia" should form a EU like arrangement. If you are talking about Bangladesh not having riots, I don't know enough to comment on the period now.. I for sure know there was ethnic cleansing after 1947 and in the 50s. There was a Dalit supporter of Jinnah from Bengal, Jogindernath Mandal who was the first law minister of Pakistan. Read his resignation letter here. I don't know if India cleansed and drove out the Muslims now or at least made it clear that Muslims would be second class citizens and the state/official religion would be Hinduism, 50 years from now any Indian can claim proudly see we don't have any riots. :-)

http://bengalvoice.com/uproot_appendix1.htm

Jogendra Nath Mandal's Resignation Letter to Liaquat Ali Khan
FULL TEXT OF THE LETTER OF RESIGNATION DATED 8TH OCTOBER 1950 OF
JOGENDRA NATH MANDAL,
MINISTER FOR LAW AND LABOUR, GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN, ADDRESSED TO LIAQUAT ALI KHAN, PRIME MINISTER OF PAKISTAN

Let's not be naive. We can all play this game of one-upmanship; there are more than enough religious wackos in each of these "South Asian" nations that we can all point at and titter. And no one is trying to force these nations into a confederation or loose association immediately (that's something that I, and presumably Chachaji, believe will happen organically in the future). I just happen to think that there still enough similarities and commonalities (apparently we all like visiting and kvetching in this blog, for instance) between desis (ABDs, DBDs, Americans, Indians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans) that a label like "South Asian" is not entirely irrelevant.

I'm not naive and this is not a game of one-upmanship. Clearly India and Pakistan (that comprised of Bangladesh) have decided to split and go different paths and the different histories over the last 60 years show that they are really not that compatible. Trying to join them in a political union would be a disaster. I don't mind people enjoying Bollywood movies or Punjabi singers / Bengali literature on either sides of the border. But it is better to stop with that. :-)

For ABDs it is a different story. If they find it worthy they can join with any group they want to boost their numbers.

Remember the problems EU member nations have with Turkey joining the Union?? That is the real analogy.

were "hindus" self-conscious "hindus" as a religion (as opposed to just being another word for indian) before muslims declared them as such?

Razib, I don't know.
But I think another question along these lines one could ask would be "Was there a group of people in the Indian subcontinent prior to the arrival of Muslims who identified themselves as being neither Jain nor Buddhist?"

In ancient India people generally identified themselves by their clan/caste. Buddha himself was often referred to by his clan name "Gautam" and he had no objection to caste as such and in fact was proud of his caste (he was only against caste atrocities). In fact up until the 19th century when the Brits did their census, the question regarding religion was unintelligible to most hindus. Many of them just put down their caste in place of religion.

167 · Divya said

In ancient India people generally identified themselves by their clan/caste. Buddha himself was often referred to by his clan name "Gautam" and he had no objection to caste as such and in fact was proud of his caste (he was only against caste atrocities).

Brahminical deceit and ignorance. Firstly, Buddha's objection to the caste system is very well known; you are lying through your teeth here. Secondly, his clan was Sakya, not Gautam. Read and weep:

http://www.buddhanet.net/bud_lt21.htm

"Caste, which was a matter of vital importance to the brahmins of India, was one of utter indifference to the Buddha, who strongly condemned the debasing caste system"

" On one occasion a caste-ridden brahmin insulted the Buddha saying. "Stop, thou shaveling! Stop, thou outcast!" The Master, without any feeling of indignation, gently replied:

"Birth makes not a man an outcast,
Birth makes not a man a brahmin;
Action makes a man an outcast,
Action makes a man a brahmin."

(Sutta-nipâta, 142)

He then delivered a whole sermon, the Vasala Sutta, explaining to the brahmin in detail the characteristics of one who is really an outcast (vasala)."

There is really no "South Asian" identity in South Asia.

Toto, I've got a feeling we're not in South Asia anymore.
As we are in America, on a blog run by mostly (all?) Americans, the fact that in South Asia, there is no 'South Asian' identity is not that relevant.

Toto, I've got a feeling we're not in South Asia anymore. As we are in America, on a blog run by mostly (all?) Americans, the fact that in South Asia, there is no 'South Asian' identity is not that relevant.

That's right.. this is what I said later.

For ABDs it is a different story. If they find it worthy they can join with any group they want to boost their numbers.

For ABDs it is a different story. If they find it worthy they can join with any group they want to boost their numbers.

Who is the 'any group'?

I meant kids(ABDs) of Indian born parents can associate with other kids(ABDs) of Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Nepali/Srilankan descent and can form their own presure groups in US and name it "South Asian / Under Himalayan / Above Indian Ocean" etc.. etc..