July 23, 2008
Coming Out SwingingNews
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is often described, not entirely without reason, as a somewhat passive and non-confrontational leader — an accidental politician, with the real strings being pulled, behind the scenes, by Sonia Gandhi. (Manmohan may wear the Pagri, but Sonia wears the pants, as it were.)
However, in the speech he gave yesterday in the Indian Parliament before the Confidence Vote (which the UPA government won, by about 20 votes), Manmohan Singh showed no signs of meekness or passivity. Indeed, his take-down of BJP leader L.K. Advani is rhetorically ferocious. I was impressed:
“The Leader of Opposition, Shri L.K. Advani has chosen to use all manner of abusive objectives to describe my performance. He has described me as the weakest Prime Minister, a nikamma PM, and of having devalued the office of PM. To fulfill his ambitions, he has made at least three attempts to topple our government. But on each occasion his astrologers have misled him. This pattern, I am sure, will be repeated today. At his ripe old age, I do not expect Shri Advani to change his thinking. But for his sake and India’s sake, I urge him at least to change his astrologers so that he gets more accurate predictions of things to come.
As for Shri Advani’s various charges, I do not wish to waste the time of the House in rebutting them. All I can say is that before leveling charges of incompetence on others, Shri Advani should do some introspection. Can our nation forgive a Home Minister who slept when the terrorists were knocking at the doors of our Parliament? Can our nation forgive a person who single handedly provided the inspiration for the destruction of the Babri Masjid with all the terrible consequences that followed? To atone for his sins, he suddenly decided to visit Pakistan and there he discovered new virtues in Mr. Jinnah. Alas, his own party and his mentors in the RSS disowned him on this issue. Can our nation approve the conduct of a Home Minister who was sleeping while Gujarat was burning leading to the loss of thousands of innocent lives? Our friends in the Left Front should ponder over the company they are forced to keep because of miscalculations by their General Secretary. (link)
Unfortunately, I gather the din was too great for the speech to actually be heard. But hey, at least he tried to say it.
In terms of content, the only thing that seems off key here is the reference to Advani’s “ripe old age” — I’m not sure that a 75 year old man can really get away with that comment! (Advani, for reference, is even older — about 81.)
The rest of the speech (read it here in its entirety) is more focused on substantively defending the Indo-U.S. nuclear deal and the general policies of the current government. It is, by comparison to the above, a bit dull… but necessary.
In the interest of opposing dullness, we would be remiss if we didn’t mention the second remarkable thing that happened in the chaotic Parliamentary session yesterday:
3 BJP MPs disrupted the session when they pulled wads of Rupees out of a bag, and claimed they had been paid to abstain from voting. (A video clip of the event can be seen here.)
The allegations are going to be investigated, of course, but my instinct is that it smells like a stunt. The three MPs say they met Amar Singh, who told them “we can’t give you very much money to abstain, because we have the votes to sustain the government.” That sounds like B.S. (why would the SP bother with bribes if the vote was already secure?). And the story of how they were actually physically given the money is also a bit questionable (see this report). Finally, they claim they have video proving the bribe took place — but where is that video? Why didn’t they leak that to the media as well?
Of course, if it comes out that there’s hard evidence supporting the claims of vote-buying, the currently fragile UPA government probably really will fall. And the government falls because they really did buy votes and abstentions this nakedly, I for one won’t be particularly sorry about it.
In the meanwhile, 8 BJP MPs have been expelled from the party for defying leadership, when they either abstained from voting or voted cross-party for the bill. And the Samajwadi Party has filed a procedural complaint (“breach of privilege”) against the 3 BJP MPs who pulled the stunt.
amardeep on July 23, 2008 04:49 PM in News, Politics · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Coming out zinging is more like it! Good stuff!
So are the Communists upset that the deal went through? AWESOME. I hate Prakash Karat.
You nailed it... "Coming Out Zinging" would have been a much better title for this post.
I was tempted to do some riff on the new Akshay Kumar movie, "Singh is Kinng," but decided not to sully the good PM's name with a reference to the usual Bollywood kachra.
Considering it is kachra----you have spent a lot of time talking about it!
Say it with pride. Singh is King. Singh is King. Singh is King.
India's national newspaper says it, why should some South Asian object ?
http://www.hindustantimes.com/FullCoverage/FullCoverage.aspx?Special=SinghisKing
All the TV channels today carried Singh is King logo today
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Images/2008/7/dac884bf-6793-4d0e-ba6b-f78b4e9ec052MediumRes.JPG
But I guess it must be kachra because South Asian has said so.
pure pwnage. i love these little tidbits from countries with more exciting systems of government.
Manmohan Singh rocks!
So Manmohand Zing mentions Babri Gujarat, (lets call it BG for easier recall next time) and skip any mention of the ethnic cleansing of Pandits, or the recent chaos over the Amarnath Shrine. Oh wait - they were protests over environmental concerns. While Gujarat was holocaust of peace loving muzzies.
But I guess it must be kachra because South Asian has said so.
I don't mind if Indian newspapers relished this particular play on words, but I know my cinematic kachra when I see it -- or are you just pissy because you expect that "Singh is Kinng" is going to be some kind of cinematic triumph? (Read the plot description and tell me if "kachra" isn't the right word to use here.)
In short: another forgettable Akshay Kumar flop...
So Manmohand Zing mentions Babri Gujarat, (lets call it BG for easier recall next time) and skip any mention of the ethnic cleansing of Pandits,
You forgot to mention that he also got off a couple of nice zingers about astrologers.
Anyway, Manmohan Singh was simply standing up for himself, the government he has tried to lead, and principle. The most surreal aspect of this whole process is the fact that the BJP actually secretly supports this deal (Advani has admitted as much, that the constituents who vote BJP agree in principle with the deal), but they have put themselves on the line to try and kill it.
Their attempt to break the government was a nakedly cynical, opportunistic play for power; luckily, it failed. And they lost 8 MPs immediately as a result (guess who will be courting those principled turncoats tomorrow?). I wouldn't be surprised if other casualties follow.
And it's nonsensical of you to try and equate the morals of a person who flagrantly and knowingly incited communal violence for political gain (Advani) with Manmohan Singh, who had nothing to do with what happened in Kashmir, or any of Congress' other failures (there have, admittedly, been many).
I see he's learned well from Advani. Or perhaps from Bush.
Actually, Amardeep, I think that makes him much more likely to get away with it than the rest of us!
He never gave the reply. Due to the BJP MPs scandal, whenever he tried to start his speech, he was shouted down by the opposition. As Parliament did sit for a long time, the speaker couldn't be bothered calming the MPs down and the PM laid it on the table.
I don't like Advani's politics but it is interesting to see how there is no empathy at all for someone who lost everything during Partition. Meanwhile there is no shortage of progressive tears to be found at SM for the po' stateless Palestinians.
Though I don't disagree with what PM Singh said. Whatever the roots of Advani's monomania it is a destructive obsession.
Two years ago, His Majesty, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia was the Chief Guest at our Republic Day. More recently, we have played host to the President of Iran, President of Syria, the King of Jordan, the Emir of Qatar and the Emir of Kuwait.
So many lines of the speech was great - but wow, about the above statement, when I think about the treatment of INdian bluecollar workers in saudi - I guess that's politics.
Here's the official link for the speech:
http://www.pmindia.nic.in/lspeech.asp?id=695
16 · khoofia said
They both are Ex. Pakistani.
Their attempt to break the government was a nakedly cynical, opportunistic play for power; luckily, it failedTheir attempt to break the government was a nakedly cynical, opportunistic play for power; luckily, it failed
Luckily maybe for you sitting in vilayat. In India, every soul is crying for this ruling government to crash. Most people are not too bothered by the packaging and saleability of our PMs and Super PMs to Goras, but about rising prices and lack of development. Sorry to dissapoint you but this epiphany over this league of criminals retaining power is to be short lived.
Spot on Dhokla. Indian politics at it nadir. With the recent redraft of 140 constituencies it was obvious that many sitting MPs didn't want early elections- 140 of them (from various political parties) will face a drastically altered electorate next year- some mayn’t even be able to contest. And wasn't this really about election alliances? The Left could’ve withdrawn support and the Congress could’ve held a similar farce when the deal was initially opposed (if it really was about "national interest").
But these are "minor" facts. Arguing over silly puns like "Singh is King" is more reassuring than debating the morality of aligning with SP, appeasing Shibu Soren or shaking hands with Pappu Yadav.
Now the question- Do you really think Mr Singh will be the Congress’ candidate for PM next time too? And will the nuclear deal be as imp an issue as rising inflation, farmers’ debt or the dismal industrial growth (for Indians in India)? Hint: maybe Kalavati holds the key :)
2 · Manmohan Zing! said
Coming out zinging is more like it! Good stuff!
"Coming out Singhing" would have been also good.
Luckily maybe for you sitting in vilayat.
It's funny to hear someone snickering about "you in vilayet" and appeasing "goras" when their IP address clearly shows them to be logging in from a broadband connection in Chicago.
ROFL.. sometimes people just get carried away..
I'm happy that the government won. But I also believe that money was paid to buy the support of many MPs. It's not even a secret anymore and I don't think people even care that much. Recently, in Karnataka BJP bought a few MLAs and now Congress and SP bought a few MPs.
I don't think Congress gained any political capital associated with the deal or the win in the confidence vote. Nuclear deal is not really an electoral issue. Price rise and Internal security are real issues that would affect the elections.
One can be in touch with the happenings in India while sitting in 'vilayat'. Almost all the channels are available and newspapers have tonnes more on their websites than what they have in print.
23 · brown_dbd said
Perhaps, but one cannot be in touch with what every soul in India cries for, no matter who/where one is.
The allegations are going to be investigated, of course, but my instinct is that it smells like a stunt
(Where can I get a kilo of that instinct?)
From someone who didn't spend an iota of his adult political life in India...
Adult opinion in India varies on the desirability of the "deal" and the whether the UPA government represents the best political option for India; but it is fairly unanimous that bribes were freely given, on both sides. Except that the ruling coalition has more funds to disburse by the nature of things...
Apologies to people whose mental age is more than fifteen.
Talking of IP addresses seems pretty amusing. Right now I am logging in from London, 3 months back it would've been Delhi and 3 months before that Amsterdam and 6 months before that Mumbai and 3 years before that Delhi- so logging in from Chicago or Delhi or London has nothing to do with being totally disconnected with the realities of India- I have met as many 'vilayati' Indians in India as abroad. And honestly do people really think BJP and Congress are that different?
Apologies to people whose mental age is more than fifteen.
Why so smug and condescending?
Adult opinion in India varies on the desirability of the "deal" and the whether the UPA government represents the best political option for India;
Thank you, New Jersey.
for hindi illiterates, what is vilayat ?? i can guess it is foreign, but just wanted to confirm.
>>>>>>>so i am very curious abotu mr. advani's background. pray tell. i had heard of PM singh's birth >>>>>>>and early childhood in pakistan - so it would be interesting to draw parallels.
>>>They both are Ex. Pakistani.
Shhhh...(rap on the knuckles)
Both are South Asians - Singh is Punjabi and Adwani is Sindhi.
Adwani and Singh are immigrants from what is now known as Pakistan - after independence and birth of the two nations.
Dhokla:
>> ... every soul is crying for this ruling government to crash.
I wonder why you say that. I thought people are wary of another election and ensuing instability. My guess is most people would prefer the government to complete its term. I am in vilayat so not that up to date on this.
Rahul Gandhi seems to have hit the high gear in his preparations to occupy the PM's seat that 'Doc Saab' has kept warm for him. The realization that his days are numbered may the source of this new found 'courage' for Singh. He is going to be out soon so why not make a little noise before leaving.
Amardeep, while I am not about to teach youcurrent affairs, I must at least correct you on that. The BJP did not attempt to break the government, it is the Left Loons led by 14-Carat and his flunkies. And this threat has been dished out for over 30 months now. It is not only the Left Loons who have threatened to break hte government, it is also the Tamizh Nadu joint family aka the DMK that has threatened to walk out of the alliance on occasion. The last time that happened was when the Union Government proposed to dilute/divest its stake in Neyveli Lignite Corporation in TN. The decision was dropped in a matter of hours following a phone call from Karunanidhi to Sonia, thereon to MMS.
Indian parliamentary procedure does not provide for ratification of treaties. So in this case it is the Left Loons who withdrew support to the UPA precipitating the confidence vote. No opposition - especially the party that leads - worth its salt would support the ruling alliance at a time like this. It's the way a multi party legislature works. The Opportunistic play for power was actually waged by 14-carat and Mayawati of the BSP who had been assured the PM's post. The Congress approached many bit players way back in October last year, starting with the Samajwadi Party. Everyone has their own demands. Deve Gowda who is now reduced to scraps in Karnataka made a bold play, and demanded that mining be nationalised! So that he could get back at the Reddy Brothers mining magnates of Bellary who at one time used to grovel at his feet. But then there are bigger interests at play. There is Sterlite/Vedanta Resources, and many others who can deliver much moreto the Congress, so Deve Gowda got nothing. To get Mayawati on its side in 2004, MMS and Sonia eased the prosecutorial pressure on Mayawati's many corrupt deals, while ratcheting up the pressure on Mulayam. Now with Mulayam on board, it is hte other way round - that's the price Mulayam asked for and got. Also Lalloo and Mulayam to two Yadav biggies have come back together. Were they ever apart? This is the 2nd time Lalloo and Mulayam have collaborated after they came together to speak up for Baba Ramdev (originally a Yadav now a sanyasi) when 14-Carat's wife embarked on that Quixotic adventure (no doubt inspired by some tract dished out by Meera Nanda.
So if you are handing out tokens for cynicism, you will need tonnes of them.
BTW the speech was never delivered.
Much as I hate the Congress, I am glad that we have been spared another Third Front farce like the Gowda-Gujral disasters. If the UPA had fallen, the BJP would not have formed the government - and they knew it of course - we could have instead had another dysfunctional mess with 14-Carat pulling the strings and some Third Front hack for PM. Nothing would have moved and things would have sunk even lower. With fossils like D. Raja and AB Bardhan breathing fire, it would have been the good old socialistic days once again. But there is no saying what this UPA will do. The CPI(M) and the SP have both been playing communal politics in mobilising Islamo-extremist-communalist anti-US sentiment to strengthen their vote banks. Just as Lalloo campaigned with an Osama look-alike. The SP has now walked out on that strategy for some time, probably banking on making good by building its Yadav led BC vote bank. The Congress too can be expected to make some deft moves to appease the communal sentiments. We saw how it has kept silent as the Kashmir Valley thugs led by Omar Abdullah, and other crypto-terrorist sympathisers like Mufti and his family have worked to disruot ad shut down the Amarnath Yatra (while $100 million is being spent by the Government for a new Haj center in Delhi. But we will come to that later. Right now there are urgent issues. The disastrous state of the Indian economy, its ramshackle infrastructure needs attention. So let's hope some good comes out of this after all.
13 · louiecypher said
Hindu Sindhis and Punjabis who lost everything during the partition (like the Palestinians) do not face political and social discrimination in the desh post-Independence (unlike the Mohajirs and the Palestinians). The Palestinians (many of who undeniably support violence and terrorism) have spent their lives in a state of constant siege and vulnerability, whereas Sindhis and Punjabis did not have to face political victimhood in India (at least for any extended period of time). Many received decent compensation in India in the form of property and government jobs. I don't see how Sindhi and Punjabi suffering (though very large in magnitude) even compares with the suffering of Palestinians and Israelis who have been placed in a much more intractable situation for far longer. Perhaps Kashmiris (both Hindu and Muslim) are better analogues for Palestinian and Israelis.
And although I recognize Mr. Advani's loss in the events of 1947, mere suffering does not give one a license to monger hate and create conditions for large-scale civil disturbances. Also note that given Mr. Advani's political leanings, there is reason to believe that he would wholeheartedly endorse the two-nation theory or at least the result it entails. This would mean moving to India in any case and losing the right to citizenship and property in Pakistan at the very least.
25 · corporate serf said
Really? You are saying there is plurality of opinion in India? No way!
13 · louiecypher said
Don't worry, I am sure the poncy Pomona educated Manmohan loves Musharraf. And surely, you do too.
Amardeep, while I am not about to teach youcurrent affairs, I must at least correct you on that. The BJP did not attempt to break the government, it is the Left Loons led by 14-Carat and his flunkies.
Jyotsana, thanks at least for writing a thoughtful comment. I was getting tired of being criticized by trolls.
I am well aware that it was the Left who precipitated this particular crisis (as you may remember, I have posted on this topic at least twice before).
My point is, after the Left pulled out of the government, I think the BJP made a strategic decision to oppose the deal based on political opportunity, rather than core beliefs (which are -- pro-U.S., pro-nuclear power, pro-free trade). Perhaps you are right that any opposition party in a multi-party system would do the same.
I agree in principle that the Congress used Quid pro quo to get the SP on board in particular; the news about renewed prosecution of Mayawati last week was almost too obvious. I was not aware of the Deve Gowda/mining stuff. I knew about Brinda Karat's accusation of Baba Ramdev (I might even have posted on it back when that first came out), though I didn't know about the Baba Ramdev / Yadav connection.
Thank you, New Jersey.
Hey Amardeep, you are a great writer and political commentator but like McCain computers ain't your thing. I am in Pune, India and have never been to Chicago.
jyotsana
"The disastrous state of the Indian economy.."
May I have some of the stuff you guys smoke? There is some reality I need to get away from too.
Let me tell you its not just the common (aka poor) man this govt has managed to embitter. Everyone I talk to is mighty pissed at having to dish out extra for petrol and food. My daily expenses have gone up by Rs 40 (office cafeteria charges + conveyance) not counting my rent lease that has been revised upwards. Daily life is misery and the future looks even more bleak being from the underprivileged caste (Brahmin, just one generation away from a poor village in HP) with private sector reservations and Mayawati's PMship on the horizon. I have decided not to marry or have children. It would be cruel raising them in what India is become. If my story has stirred your pathos, could you pull strings and arrange a visa for me as a refugee seeking humanitarian asylum?
37 · Dhokla said
Seems like the right choice for humanity. Thank you for being enlightened enough to realize your unfitness and pulling yourself out of the evolutionary race.
37 · Dhokla said
I'm glad you're doing your bit for population control.
According to this article, the BJP did leak the video to the media (to CNN-IBN at least), but the editor of that channel decided to hand it over to the the Lok Sabha speaker rather than air it
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/23cd.htm
35 · Dhokla said
Hey Amardeep, you are a great writer and political commentator but like McCain computers ain't your thing. I am in Pune, India and have never been to Chicago.
Eh, Dhokla,
That snark was meant for me, after a complaint about smugness and condescension. Aren't IP addresses wonderful; lets you ignore substantive points entirely.
However, one shd keep things in perspective. One does not expect foreign correspondents to cover complex political issues in a non-half-assed fashion. So it is probably too much expect this from SM, where pretty much all the posters spent their formative years outside India.
41 · corporate serf said
mhmm...
I hope you are not just making a point here, 'coz this sounds terrible.
For years (well last few years) I have been told by folks at home that I am wasting my time in USA and should move back to India. Although in last few months their enthusiasm has waned a little as situation has become tighter, it is nothing like you describe. I spend 3-4 hours a week on phone with my parents/relatives and run an online forum for our extended family and I do not sense this level of disappointment.
25 · corporate serf said
How is it that you make a statement like that without bothering to substantiate it and still consider yourself to have a mental age of over 15?
At 15 everyone I knew was familiar with what both generalizations and citations were...
Now with Mulayam on board, it is hte other way round - that's the price Mulayam asked for and got. Also Lalloo and Mulayam to two Yadav biggies have come back together. Were they ever apart? This is the 2nd time Lalloo and Mulayam have collaborated after they came together to speak up for Baba Ramdev (originally a Yadav now a sanyasi) when 14-Carat's wife embarked on that Quixotic adventure (no doubt inspired by some tract dished out by Meera Nanda.
jyotsana (#30).
Wonderful castists comments about the two Mr. Yadavs. Why all of them are crooks of course, even the one's who are just ordinary citizens (at least by your analysis). How about the PM before Lallo Prasad and Rabri Devi in Bihar, one Mr. Mishra who was just as corrupt. Oh but never mind him, he is a loveable Brahmin But of course his name is never mentioned for any wrong doings.
Get one thing clear in your head, most politicians are corrupt not just the ones you mention. I will have to say this however, PM Singh is NOT a corrupt politician. He is a true Sikh in the sense that he follows his beliefs and does not believe in bribery.
Prices will be high until power is provided primary via Electricity, which is why the Nuclear deal is needed. Face it transporation by rail is the most efficient means of transport and electric rail is the most efficient by far. This what the deal is all about. India may not see the effects for a while but it is a good deal. Remember everything in today's world moves by oil. Oil is sold in dollars, rupees are worth less than dollars hence the high cost. Food is grown with fertilizers which again use natural gas, the brother of oil. Its all connected.
Rahul Gandhi would be terrible for India by the way. We don't need someone like him in the office. Someone like PM Singh, just a little younger. PHd in Economics isn't too shabby. All this by the way coming from a Hindu.
This is pretty much the fact.
Just a couple of weeks back, a few MLAs from the opposition group Congress and Janata Dal(S) resigned their seats and joined to shore up the wafer thin majority in Karnataka. The same case is repeated at the national level (even though they din't join the Congress) by MPs of various opposition parties. Typically, whoever rules has the advantage.
I can fully believe that a lot of money has passed hands. Just a couple of years back, Mulayam wanted to bring a censure motion against Bush.. And he organised massive protests against the Bush visit and one of the main reasons why Bush didn't speak in the parliament.
Amar Singh (a close confidante of Mulayam) visited US recently and returned convinced of the "economic" sense of the deal and the whole drama followed.
:-)
35 · Dhokla said
Can you please not sit in India and comment on the vilayat? I know that your shabby living conditions, love for the "muzzies", and oppressed state leave you nothing to do but surf the web all day, but why don't you contribute a nice comment to a rediff article or something?
46 · Ponniyin Selvan said
This is probably true. But I am glad the BJP lost. The alignment of the commies-(marxist!) with the BJP would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic.
[quote]
Can you please not sit in India and comment on the vilayat? I know that your shabby living conditions, love for the "muzzies", and oppressed state leave you nothing to do but surf the web all day, but why don't you contribute a nice comment to a rediff article or something?
[un quote]
Gotta love outsourcing -- of blog-comment responses :)
Amardeep,
Within the BJP and its circle of supporters there are some lines of difference. The caricature of the BJP and its sibling the RSS being harboring xenophobic, and autarkic tendencies is exaggerated. There may be many members within these two entities who act so, but their influence is negligible. In contrast there aren't too many pro-US people either who are so beyond being pragmatic. And then we have non-control economic advocates such as Arun Shourie - who is opposed to hte deal, and Subramaniam Swamy (all but part of BJP) who is for the deal. Others such as Brijesh Mishra, (a v. good friend of Kissinger) Jaswant Singh, have been so vague about their POV that it is not possible to put them in either camp. In the BJP friendly press (small though the circle is) notably Ashok Malik and Swapan Dasgupta have come out in favor of greater nuclear engagement with the US. K.Subrahmanyam the long time stategic affairs analyst, who if anything is equally friendly with the Congress and BJP too is in favour of the deal. B.Raman OTOH is critical and would rather that India not antagonise the Islamic states in the MidEast by being moving too close to the US, because it may hurt our energy interests. Those who oppose the deal in these circles, or support it, do it for entirely practical reasons. If anything the BJP would like to negotiate even more favourable terms. In US political terms, the Congress has tried to move to the "right" on collaboration with the US, and here again I would caution against a hasty conclusion that this is a recent trend. Except for a brief early period during which JN rejected economic prescriptions, India has in no way sought to keep an undue distance from the US.
The Left alliance is opposed to the deal for ideological reasons. The CPI(M) being an agent in place to advance Chinese interests, has tried very hard to scuttle the deal. The party's motives are wrapped in mystery but from its agenda, it seems that it is aiming for some sort of subcontinental communist federation. Of all the parties in India (PDP and National Conference excepted) the CPI(M) is the only one that has never shown any enthusiasm for maintaining India's territorial integrity. That coincides with the Chinese agenda of constraining India's growth economically and strategically. The CPI(M) believes it has taken the first step in a long march towards the federation with the installation of China and CPI(M) friendly regime in Nepal. And that was one of the many concessions the CPI(M) wangled out of the UPA - its inaction through the Nepal upheaval. The other concessions include the expansion of Chinese infrastructure businesses in India and delaying the build up of Indian forces in the Northeast. It even managed to get MMS to cancel an official visit to Arunachal Pradesh. So with so much damage already done the CPI(M) decided it was enough for now.
As for the other parties the nuclear deal either way makes no difference to them. The SP made a calculated decision to diss its Muslim base after having pumped them up with anti-US sentiment. Now with the SP in the UPA, Mayawati has grabbed that token! But politicians betting on such flimsy trends are misguided. It is an insult to every Muslim Indian.
The nuclear deal negotiations indicate that there is continuity and a broad degree of agreement over India's strategic interests across political parties. And very large masses of people can be classified as "right of center" on the issue.
I thought the best and probably most important part of the speech was this section:
The strategic programme will continue to be developed at an autonomous pace determined solely by our own security perceptions. We have not and we will not accept any outside interference or monitoring or supervision of our strategic programme. Our strategic autonomy will never be compromised. We are willing to look at possible amendments to our Atomic Energy Act to reinforce our solemn commitment that our strategic autonomy will never be compromised.
If the "strategic programme" is being run by the folks that gave India it's civilian nuclear program (power generation) only 1.5 warheads would detonate out of the 20 delivered by the missiles.
52 · amaun said
You should check out the website maintained by Nuclear Power corp of India. There are quite a few plants that have decent capacity and availability factors. Since the nuclear embargo of 1974 Indian scientists and engineers haven't done too badly. TAPS-1 & 2, entirely US designed and installed, have been run independently by India for decades. Apart from that India has moving ahead on fast breeder technology as well, an area that will not be subject to any inspection. There is currently no civilian nuclear program such as India's that is entirely self-reliant and possibly even self-sufficient. Without access to an international supply web India hasn't done too badly in operating ~5000 MW of capacity. Kush - if you are reading this - would you like to add something?
Jyotsana brings up a serious problem with the Indian Constitution-- what kind of national parliament has no power to ratify treaties that the government enters into? Whose idea was that?
Amardeep, after all this checking of IP addresses, doesn't it seem to you now that opinion is likely divided not only in Desh but among the diaspora as well?
Sorry, but I'm not seeing Prakash Karat as a cartoon figure. I still think the Hyde Act will be a problem going forward.
Kush - if you are reading this - would you like to add something?
I will more later in the day.
Indian nuclear program uptil now have been a mixed bag - they did develop it entirely on their own, and that is very commendable**, however, without continual supply of enriched uranium, and access to world wide technology, they had hit a serious wall. As for thorium-based (fast breeder reactor) energy solutions, it is something needs around 30-40 years of more research to be viable.
Personally, this confidence motion victory is a personal vindication of PM Singh, as he did stake a lot of his reputation on it. However, let's hope, that till May 2009, some real reforms are initiated by the present government, and this opportunity is not wasted. Right now, in Indian politics there are roughly three fronts - Congress led, BJP led, and now BSP led - and in some sense it is not a bad thing, it will keep all of them (or that is the hope) on their toes. Regarding the drama, and all the charges in last few weeks - it comes with the territory.
Now India is entering in a very complex and difficult phase with no turning back - as the country's economic power grows, inflation is inevitable, and a by-product. The challenge is to maintain the growth rate to outrun inflation, and also keep the inflation in check, and it is not going to be easy. Hope, there will be a group of leaders (in power, or in opposition) who can keep a long view, and steady vision. We'll see. So far, India has recently progressed, inspite of its leaders, and governance.
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** Even though it is a very tiny percentage (I think, it is 2-3 %), in India, they do provide some electricity through nuclear power. They could easily up it to 10% or so with new technology that comes with Indo-US nuclear deal. As a whole, there is lot India has to do for stable, and enough electricity generation to maintain 8-9 % growth rate. Every option and source helps.
Jyotsana brings up a serious problem with the Indian Constitution-- what kind of national parliament has no power to ratify treaties that the government enters into? Whose idea was that?
That is done for a good reason - you do not want your government's key governance with rest of the world - held hostage to populist mood swings. A government will have no credibility, if for every binding agreement (be it Indo-US nuclear deal, Simla Pact, treaties with USSR in 1971, etc.) has to be on its knees in front of the Parliament.
I think Guha goes into it, and discussion during the Constituent Assembly in his book "India after Gandhi" in the chapter on constitution.
There is currently no civilian nuclear program such as India's that is entirely self-reliant and possibly even self-sufficient.
WTF! Sounds like a Nehruvian excuse.
And yet, Kush, you don't object to the fact that this same agreement will have to pass muster and be ratified-- or not-- by both houses of the U.S.Congress, especially when most of us on this blog are supporting the populist mood swing right here, and while many of us posting comments here feel that the current executive's conduct has been lacking precisely because he and his coterie have been manipulating Congress. How's that?
Faggan Singh Kulaste, one of the BJP MP alleging bribes has a chequered history. Calling his moves a stunt is right. For once CNN-IBN did the right thing, and handed over the tapes to govt instead of airing them.
I miss P.A. Sangma
He would've been amazing to have as the speaker during another farce like this.
And yet, Kush, you don't object to the fact that this same agreement will have to pass muster and be ratified-- or not-- by both houses of the U.S.Congress, especially when most of us on this blog are supporting the populist mood swing right here, and while many of us posting comments here feel that the current executive's conduct has been lacking precisely because he and his coterie have been manipulating Congress. How's that?
The way, American Federal Government is setup, and functions.........it is perhaps, the most powerful entity in the democratic world.
The President of US, and it's executive branch will find a way to bypass legislators, and/ or populist mood swings, if it has to.
Some examples:
a) League of Nations, and President Woodrow Wilson's role.
b) CTBT itself, US legislators never ratified it, yet US government imposes (preaches) CTBT on other countries.
c) Henry Kissinger in 1972, requested Iran and Turkey to loan US fighter planes, and spare parts to Pakistan so that US Congress and Senate had no interference.
d) US President (be it Republican or Democrat), when it comes to foriegn policy, runs his show with little interefence or knows to manipulate the system. Classic examples are carte blanche powers given to US President after Pearl Harbor (I think it is the US Wars Act) or after Tet offensive (in Vietnam War), and after 9/ 11. US Congress, and Senate can be very compliant, when the US President wants it to be.
By the way nature, a Parliamentary democracy seeks/ and is controlled by its lower House (be it UK, or India) far more than the Presidential system, as it should be in a democracy. But you want them for every decision by the Indian Government put through a populist ringer, that is a recipe for disaster of enormous dimensions. This said, the government in a parliamentary system seeks their credibility through elections, and bye-elections, and debate in the Parliament. Personally, what Communists in India did was well within their right, they called the bluff, and lost it - It is time to move on.
Most important: US legislators are not direct part of Executive so up and down vote is necessary for their role, but in a Parliamentary democracy, MP (Members of Parliament) are part of the executive as Ministers, and all, so you have to give them some confidence in their functioning.
Thanks Jyotsana for taking the time to dwell at length on the insanity and frustration that’s Indian politics. Amrita many Indian are voicing exactly the same sentiments (past elections have proven that Indian electorate isn’t as naive as it’s assumed to be nor are “populist mood swings� as populist as they are made out to be).
It’s amusing how on this forum if someone criticizes the Congress they’re branded BJP supporters (India doesn’t work like the US) or people are always concerned about who came from across which border some 60 years back. Thankfully in India such nitty-gritty doesn’t overwhelm us.
For people wondering what's wrong with the Indian economy how about the fact that the world's third largest food producer has 50 percent of the world’s hungry or that the nation with the fastest growing number of millionaires and billionaires stands at 126 (out of 177) in the Human Development Report. If growing inequality isn’t your preferred statistic.
How about poverty in India has decreased according to the government because we haven't brought up our poverty line (40 cents/day) to match the International Poverty Line (2 dollars/day). In August 2007 UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food noted that 80 per cent of the Indian population was surviving on less than two dollars/day and child malnutrition levels were higher than that in most nations of Sub Saharan Africa
You may still very well say but that isn't the economy stupid (magically making it all disappear under the term ‘inevitable part of development’).
So how about simply asking people in urban India enjoying the economic boom (despite the inflation) how much they pay their domestic maid and then comparing it with how much they spend in a month. The resulting (in)difference is "Westoxification" (Dr Dipankar Gupta's term) a lethal consequence of "development' and lack of compassion.
Will the nuclear deal benefit Kalawati (star of Rahul Gandhi's speech) only time will tell but the fact that the real Kalawati hasn't eaten in two days (check Times of India) is high time we acknowledged?
Amrita,
If you honestly, think that Indian Constitution should make ratification of treaties as an amendment.
Then, maybe, it is the time for on the ground populist movement in India, to force MPs to amend the constitution. Maybe, a SMS campaign.
That is something, I will support (and many others too) but it will hold only after it has amended the constition.
Okay, Kushji, you admire the U.S. Federal Govt., and nothing wrong with that, but the idea of having three separate but equal branches of government is NOT to set up ways and means for the executive branch to bypass the legislative branch and the judiciary. By the measures you cite, there's still something lacking in the division of power in India where the Indian Parliament's authority is not now suspended because of a national crisis or a war-- the Parliament is simply not empowered to make decisions regarding contracts that the Govt enters into with another nation or nations, and minority parties, even those propping up the coalition government, cannot assert objections without resorting to toppling the government-- something not quite right with that setup.
The CPI(M) didn't just try to call Congress Party's bluff and fail, apparently they spurred the Congress Party into a shocking and highly visible display of ongoing corruption! Please observe that condikedar, one of our own mutinous horde, already posted the Washington Post's report on that scandal in the News tab, which I reproduce here
Kush @63., that is exactly what I think, and I'm delighted that you would support just such a constitutional amendment!
anvita, I do hope there will be a groundswell of public opinion that pushes forward such an amendment-- high time! Personally, I don't think of populism as pejorative. If there weren't wisdom in it, the world would still be seeing a predominance of monarchies.
63 · Kush Tandon said
When you say SMS, do you mean a text message campaign? I don't see how that is populist in the Indian context (and I'm not even Prema/Vyasa/Kaka). I know your tony dhobi has a cellphone, but mine doesn't.
"Coming Out Swinging...."
"However, in the speech he gave yesterday in the Indian Parliament before the Confidence Vote ...Manmohan Singh showed no signs of meekness or passivity."
I'd be very careful in providing such a gushing endorsement to any politician in India under any circumstances!
When you say SMS, do you mean a text message campaign? I don't see how that is populist in the Indian context
SMS (text messaging) is used in developing countries like India, Palestine far more than US.
It is used for political activism, and advertising non-stop. Indian cell (mobile) phone are inundated with advertisements.
Recent example of political activism is the opening of Jessical Lall case via SMS campaign.
Right now, India has 277.9 million mobile phone subscribers, with 8.2 million added in May. Maybe, your dhobi gota mobile phone in May.
I meant: Recent example of political activism is the re-opening of Jessical Lall murder court case via SMS campaign.
69 · Kush Tandon said
Fair enough, but what percentage of the population owns a cell phone? It's not clear whether your number are double-counting multiple connections that small businesses and middle class families have. I'm well aware of India's excellent wireless infrastructure, but it's a fallacy to assume that text-messaging 'activists' represent the majority of the country.
For more context on where I'm coming from see Anvita's comment #62 on the poverty stats. India's shining, but it's no Sirius.
As far as Jessica Lal is concerned, several commentators in the desh have observed that while many crimes against women go unpunished, crimes against young, relatively wealthy, and glamorous women receive disproportionate sympathy. Of course, middle class people will text for Jessica Lal. I see no large-scale SMS campaigns for dead farmers though. Maybe there is/will be one for Arushi Talwar.
69 · Kush Tandon said
Also, the very fact that texting is used for constant niche advertising might alert you to the relative purchasing power of Indian cell phone subscribers wrt rest of the population.
54 · Amrita said
I would imagine Nehru's and/or Patel's. Did not want smaller parties in the parliament (at independence) to stop the government's external policies. BTW, what is the convention/constitution in Britain on this issue? Most of the Indian constitution follows British practices, with some concessions to the US version in matters of form (not substance). Thus we have official secrets act; schedule nine; and a largely decorative (except for ousting state governments) office of the president.
44 · ptr_vivek said
Whatever.
Hypotheticals, meta-statements. 15 year olds' debating tactics.
Here are two statements Amardeep made:
The allegations are going to be investigated, of course, but my instinct is that it smells like a stunt.
1. If you have any understanding of Indian politics then it would be clear that this allegation will not be seriously investigated, so long this government is in power, but will be kept on book and used later on as a bargaining chip (against Amar Singh, e.g.). This is not specific to the UPA government. If the opposition had won, they would have done the same.
2. It does not smell like a stunt (in that the accusation is false) to most who has more understanding of Indian politics than Amardeep displays.
These are the substantive issues. The rest is talk.
74 · corporate serf said
I think that to have an "understanding" of anything there need to be certain underlying logical patterns or rationale. I would always vote for the BJP over the Congress, we need a Uniform Civil Code above most other things, so that at least we start being a democracy in the real sense. But this whole process with the opportunistic power-hungry alliances, that cannot even be accorded the respect of a term like "real politik", involved the BJP insulting the values of the Indian Constitution rather than being a validation of them. I'm glad they lost not only because of the procedure but the eventuality of Advani being the PM would not have been beneficial to India in terms of domestic security and the threat of terrorism. An even more ghastly prospect would've been Mayawati as the representative of India, and lets leave it at that.
I think this should be yet another reality check towards forming more India-centric Policy groups that will actually accquire a standing among the Indian Diaspora and might have a say in such processes instead of concentrating resources on less relevant policy situations.
Proud of what Manmohan Singh has done for India.
Lk Advani is good for nothing he would be worse than Bush. There you go I've said it.
Just leaving my 2 cents on the issue,
Ashmith
Freelance Web Designer
67 · MFA said
When you say SMS, do you mean a text message campaign? I don't see how that is populist in the Indian context (and I'm not even Prema/Vyasa/Kaka). I know your tony dhobi has a cellphone, but mine doesn't.
They have dhobis in Williamsburg Brooklyn?
77. louiecypher: They have dhobis in Williamsburg Brooklyn?
Thank you louiecypher
Inspired by your joke I typed in Dhobi into Google Maps for businesses in Williamsburg, Brooklyn and this was the No. 1 result
Now I want Indian food and Devon is 40 minutes away...I hate you!
I meant: after Gulf of Tonkin Resolution (
not Tet offensive) (in Vietnam War), .........To counter Gulf of Tonkin Resolution type powers to US President, War Powers Resolution had to passed in 1973.
I don't like Advani's politics but it is interesting to see how there is no empathy at all for someone who lost everything during Partition. Meanwhile there is no shortage of progressive tears to be found at SM for the po' stateless Palestinians.
I have a lot of sympathy for the Hindu Pakistan born immigrants in India. I wish the Indian government would stop the apartheid treatment of people like Advani, stop stealing their land by building settlements over their villages and cities and sucking the life out of them with oppressive check points. Maybe one day they will all get Indian passports so they are not stateless anymore.
80 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said
I have a lot of sympathy for the Hindu Pakistan born immigrants in India. I wish the Indian government would stop the apartheid treatment of people like Advani, stop stealing their land by building settlements over their villages and cities and sucking the life out of them with oppressive check points. Maybe one day they will all get Indian passports so they are not stateless anymore.
Pagal: Fuck you. I see you being flip about atrocities committed against Hindus and even denying the targeted killing of Hindus in East Pakistan in '71.
Pagal: I see that being Muslim means never having to say you are sorry. Must be nice being surrounded by nominal Hindus & whites who treat you like a pet, your own community isn't particularly accepting
81 · louiecypher said
Flip ya'!
louiecypher, is being a Muslim worse than being an MFA? Or better? Just curious.
Pagal: Fuck you. I see you being flip about atrocities committed against Hindus and even denying the targeted killing of Hindus in East Pakistan in '71.
How am I being flip? You were wondering about why dont the Pro-Palestinian people on SM sympathize with the treatment of migrant Hindus from Pakistan to India. As I stated earlier, I do sympathize with these stateless people who are living in little Bantustans in India and oppressed by the Indian government. Your brilliant analogy was quite apt.
And no, I dont want to f*** you so quit begging for it.
Pagal: Referring to Hindus who had to flee as "migrants" rather than refugees or the victims of ethnic cleansing is flippant. Suggesting that a passport has any worth when your family has been murdered is also flippant. You seem fairly bright, I'm sure you'll figure out autocopulation.
80 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said
I'm sure that for over 99% of them when they were born, the place wasn't Pakistan.
Pagal: Referring to Hindus who had to flee as "migrants" rather than refugees or the victims of ethnic cleansing is flippant. Suggesting that a passport has any worth when your family has been murdered is also flippant. You seem fairly bright, I'm sure you'll figure out autocopulation.
Thankfully no Muslims were killed in Indian Punjab on route to Pakistan or some lefties might have suggested that killings occured on both sides.
So Manmohand Zing mentions Babri Gujarat, (lets call it BG for easier recall next time) and skip any mention of the ethnic cleansing of Pandits, or the recent chaos over the Amarnath Shrine. Oh wait - they were protests over environmental concerns. While Gujarat was holocaust of peace loving muzzies.
Manmohan Singh also did not criticize Pol Pot for the killings in Cambodia while he criticized Advani for destroying the Masjid (between, the proudest day in Indian history, EVER!) Incidentally the Maj-jid was named after Babar who was evil but no mention of that, hello? This crazed Sardar obviously has double standards.
There was something desperate about this whole confidence vote business, not sure why the Congress went ahead with it, and the Left allied with the BJP. Things were running along nicely with disagreements and committees and stuff, then it was almost as if they got spooked at something. Not sure what that was. Why did so many people cross the floor, even risking expulsion? And how was that organized? If you know the murky waters of Delhi lobbying, that means some really big monsters were stirring in the depths. Watch who gets the contracts.
Amar Singh's track record - not to mention the general rule-of-thumb about loose-end Parliamentarians in high-pressure votes -- is plenty of reason to suspect that bribes were being given to MPs. But the stunt the BJP MPs pulled wasn't worth the film it was captured on. You didn't mention that they waited until the end of the session to storm into the well, and prior to that, they made no complaints to either the Speaker or the police about bribery. Wads of cash? Everybody has a wad of cash. This was pure showboating, and sadly, they didnt even go as far as to unbind the notes and flick them decadently over the Congress or SP MPs... now, that would be some grandstanding worthy of the Parliament of India!
I think the BJP MPs act was well staged and believe would have a good imapct. The debate was telecast live throughout India. It makes no sense to file the complaint and go the traditional route when you have a big audience watching the show. It is pretty much common knowledge that bribes are given and taken. Infact for the JMM leader Shibu Soren who came back to favor with the Congress, it would be like an "action replay" of what happened during the Narasimha Rao trust vote in the 90s. He just came out of jail from the murder charges (He was alleged to have murdered his seceratary over sharing the money he got during that trust vote). :-)
Personal attacks get you banned. One warning.
Amrita, I was referring to populist opinion as projected by mainstream English media in India (TOI, HT et al the major news source for most bloggers outside India). Many people in India have been/are voicing concerns about the "Westminister" model (including surprisingly even TOI).
The main issue is that the entire political class failed the nation. Left, right and centre. We know horse-trading; CBI cases, appointment of senior bureaucrats etc. have always been the deal but never has everything been so blatant and without an iota of shame (not even a sheepish grin).
Rampant criminalization of politics bothers us the most. Getting convicted MPs out of jail to vote!!! (And lets not even get started on contempt of Parliament.) All this highlights a serious lack of leadership.
The fact is Mr. Singh isn't considered a leader in India. He hasn't won any Lok Sabha elections-lost South Delhi in 1999 (isn't it the very demographic that's supposed to be his biggest admirer- the Indian upper/middle class), nominated to Rajya Sabha from Assam(???). How he got nominated is an entirely different story on subverting the Constitution for political ends but to be fair many others sail in the same boat.
But as the saying goes "andhere nagari chaupat raja" so if anyone is really concerned about criminalization of Indian politics and shamed by its recent display by all political parties (and I emphasize all) - please spread the word about need for democratic reforms in India.
Or at least check this
http://www.adrindia.org/about/about.asp
(Don't make assumptions just because it's based in Ahmedabad- check their achievements)
An edited excerpt from their press release dated July 10th, 2008:
The coming general elections to the Lok Sabha (2009) don't forecast a bright future if the composition of the Lok Sabha 2004 at present is any indication. There are 120 MPs with criminal cases against them out of 543, or 22.1%. Among the major parties, the BJP has 29 MPs with a criminal record, the Indian National Congress (INC) 24, the SP 11, RJD 8, CPM 7, BSP 7, NCP 5 and CPI 2.
The number of cases of serious crimes is 333, with several MPs having multiple cases. If we look at violent crimes like murder, attempt to murder, robbery, dacoity, kidnapping, theft and extortion, rape, other violent crimes like assault using dangerous weapons or causing grievous hurt, the Samajwadi Party (SP) leads with 80 cases, followed by BSP 43, BJP 17, INC 16, RJD 9, CPM 5, CPI 1, NCP 2. Other crimes like cheating, fraud, forgery, giving false oaths to public officials and so on have BSP 23, RJD 22, INC 21, BJP 11, SP 11 and CPM 6.
And please this isn't about whether the Congress is better than the BJP. Everybody knows they are all "ek hi thali ke chatte batte" (something to chew on for Hindi illiterates). Ask any small group that gathers around the pan shop every evening in any random small town of India.
Have a good weekend.