I don’t have any big answers, other than the obvious ones given in Foreign Policy: lack of sports venues, lack of school sports funding, lack of investment in preparing athletes for the Olympics.

Cricket cricket cricket all the time. It's maddenning

I know it's not a zero sum game, but if India had competent/well intentioned governance I would prefer they spent that money on child nutrition & education. Once prosperous we would, without the use of state sponsored kidnapping & horse steroids like in China, have a decent Olympics presence

How exciting for this guy. Let's wish him luck.

"I don't have any big answers ...." :

Standing joke in Kerala- encourage marriage between Punjabi men and Malayali women! Heard of PT Usha and Milkha Singh?

Finally, there is one reason now, for me, to watch the otherwise boring olympics. All the best to Raj. 8 years of hard work paying off now. Its a major achievement just to make the US team. It shows what he is made of. Bravo !!

Finally, a soft focus "human interest" "triumph over adversity" story for NBC to drool over this Olympics!

The only muscle Indians use on a habitual basis is the brain, reflecting our poor performance in the Olympics.

We use other muscles, as reflected in our population growth.

The only muscle Indians use on a habitual basis is the brain, reflecting our poor performance in the Olympics.

The Indians we interact with only use their brains and don't value physicality. This seems to be changing with the under 30, professional upper class in Indian metros. Many of them seem to be gym rats. But what % of society is this (

Most Indians in India (approx 60%) are still engaged in unmechanized agriculture and many of them are undernourished. They are surprisingly strong given their poor circumstances. Raise the nutritional standards and India will go from worst to avg without any targeted effort on sports. To get from avg to "competitive" will require corporate involvement/surplus that does not exist today

I am a huge gymnastics fan and I was so sad for RAj when he didn't make the US team (again) and was an alternate. Reading this morning that he's competing just made my day. Go Raj! I'm totally rooting for him to do well!

Regarding why India isn't competitive in the Olympics - not much investment or interest is given for olympic sports training; And I think gender norms may also be a reason that less women will have the desire or opportunity to become Olympic stars. I'm not from a big city in INdia, but just wearing a short skirt or jogging outside will bring stares and taunts from where I'm from in Kerala. Though I do know that women are going to gyms for women in my family's town in Kerala - that's an improvement. Women wearing leotards or swimsuits is unheard of where I am from in INdia. So for Indian women's participation in the olympics - I think some cultural factors definitely influence their low participation.

I know this is related to Indian Americans competing in the Olympics but there was a nice story in the BBC about Vijender Kumar a boxer from Bhiwani in northern Haryana.

he says, will make his story very much like his favourite film hero, Rocky Balboa, "who came from a modest background like me and boxed his way to stardom".

And if his dream dies at Beijing, an alternative career like modelling may end up snaring him. Vijender has already modelled for two men's magazines, including the Indian edition of Maxim.

Then there are feelers from an upcoming Indian fashion show to walk the ramp.

"Modelling and walking the ramp are tougher than boxing," he says.

"But no, cricket isn't. It is just an overrated game".

The only muscle Indians use on a habitual basis is the brain, reflecting our poor performance in the Olympics.

That betrays your class status right there.

The millions of poor labourers in India use their bodies all day long in very hard, strenuous work.

Rickshaw wallas anyone?

That is so hot.

raj is so attractive

13 · Fuerza Dulce said

That is so hot.

i feel hurt and offended in my flabbitudinous state. (poor genetics and desk job notwithstanding)

he makes it look effortless

this is so exciting! just watched several of his youtube clips. he's amazing! make texas proud, raj!

i was in mysore last month, and spoke to the young girl at the concierge desk at the ginger hotel. turns out that she was the karnataka state champ in gymnastics when she was 15 or 16. was eager to move on to the national level, but since mysore didn't have the proper training facilities (and i guess she couldn't relocate), her parents nudged her towards marriage, and now she has a 4 year old daughter. i encouraged her to at least try and coach local kids...

7 · albert camus said

The only muscle Indians use on a habitual basis is the brain

Is the brain a muscle?

Nepal is also sending a contingent of about seven athletes. Bhutan is sending archers, Maldives also plan to compete, though it isn't specified in which sport.

And I think gender norms may also be a reason that less women will have the desire or opportunity to become Olympic stars

Yes, possibly. But in spite of that, gender distribution of the team is 31-26. If you exclude five boxers as women's boxing is still not an olympic event, the breakdown is dead even at 26-26. Assuming that qualification standards are equally stringent, Indian women do not seem to be underperforming Indian men, especially in Athletics where the breakdown is 14-3 in favor of women.

Also in case anyone did not realize, this will be the first Olympics where Indian men's hockey team will not take part since India made its debut in 1928 followed by eight gold medals. Sad.

Good luck Raj!

I don’t have any big answers, other than the obvious ones given in Foreign Policy: lack of sports venues, lack of school sports funding, lack of investment in preparing athletes for the Olympics. I don’t know whether “culture” is also a factor; I tend to think not.

Did he say 'driver of the chariot'?!!! :-) that was so brown, dude. kikk ass.

17 · meerkat said

her parents nudged her towards marriage

The lucky husband got to marry the state champ in gymnastics?

Also in case anyone did not realize, this will be the first Olympics where Indian men's hockey team will not take part since India made its debut in 1928 followed by eight gold medals. Sad.

24 · confused said

The lucky husband got to marry the state champ in gymnastics?

The Gymnast ....

JERRY: How did you stay on that beam like that? (holds up hand) I mean, it's only this wide!

KATYA: I can balance myself in any position.

(Jerry swallows)

KATYA: It is amazing after years of training how one can contort one's body. Of course, it is only useful in gymnastics.

JERRY: Oh boy...

I would rather all Indians enjoy access to sanitation and clean water, than for the country to win even a single Olympic medal. There are a lot many more things for India and Indians to be disappointed about than not managing to win a few medals.

Desi from MA going to the paralympics. No easy feat.

http://anjaliforberpratt.com/content/about

I agree that there are more pressing needs than improving our medal tally at the Olympics, but I think that sports has the ability to blur some of the social divisions that plague our society. It's easier to get people to unite behind a team or a sportsman, than it is to get them united behind a party or a politician.

Nice, at least there is one desi athlete somewhere near the periphery of the olympics. One desi athlete, representing a country of a billion. I feel that cultivating a competetive spirit from an early age is useful from the standpoint of growing as a people. Why? Because competition, is something that appears to be ingrained within us, and has the wonderful characteristic that it is able to conquer color boundaries.

Pankaj

Ditto #13.

And forget about the biceps...
Did you see his legs?

I can't wait for the 'boring' Olympics.

30 · Pankaj said

Nice, at least there is one desi athlete somewhere near the periphery of the olympics. One desi athlete, representing a country of a billion. I feel that cultivating a competetive spirit from an early age is useful from the standpoint of growing as a people. Why? Because competition, is something that appears to be ingrained within us, and has the wonderful characteristic that it is able to conquer color boundaries.

Pankaj

Uhhh, he reps the U.S.A. Not a country of a billion.

Nice, at least there is one desi athlete somewhere near the periphery of the olympics. One desi athlete, representing a country of a billion.

vaat man. you're letting the plot crowd out the facts. there's at least a 100 folks of desi extraction at the olys.

Indian's make horrible athlete's, but I bet every Indian would prefer to be the coach(manager).

Indian manager. Your doing it wrong! Do it again.

Athlete: Can you show me?

Indian manager: I do not do physical labor. I am the manager.

Athlete: I know, but....

Indian Manager: Your fired.

Sports in India, except Cricket, is largely run by the government. These guys have not been able to provide Indians with decent roads in 60+ years since Independence so asking them to produce Olympic champions is just too much to ask. However, private companies and individuals are now taking thnkgs in their own hands and putting up the funds to finance sports other than cricket. Here is a feel slighhtly good story about how these guys are putting their money where their mouth is:

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&issueid=63&id=11536&Itemid=1§ionid=41

Canada is sending 6 desis to the Beijing this year on one team - men's field hockey. Out of the 18 on the squad going to the Olympics, 6 are desis - 4 punjabis and 2 goans. This is probably the most mixed team participating for Canada (and the US?). Indians are paying special attention to the Canadian team b/c of the desi factor and b/c for the first time in history, India did not qualify for the Olympics in field hockey. Is big news but unfortunately, field hockey doesn't get much press here in North America. I know that SM is focused on our American friends down south, but thought that you might be interested in some things that us Canadian folk have been doing in the sports world. Here's a shameless plug for my husband, one of the team members.

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/sports/story.html?id=cdc8a38b-873e-476e-ae49-89c8fd4d6308

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/indian-origin-wrestler-in-australian-olympic-squad_10056443.html

A DBD wearing the Green and Gold

An immigrant in the Australian team. Oz has had a long history of "new australians" represnting it in various disciplines.

Cricket and brains really dont explain why India lags behind. India hasnt won a real World Cup in cricket in 20 plus years despite the massive superiority it enjoys in money, player numbers, and enthusiasm for the sport. Even worse, didn't it make just one finals in the world cup since that win? So if India cannot even master a sport played by only few countries, and it is even played that seriously in half of those few countries, is it surprising that they fail spectacularly in the Olympics?

Also the brains part. Is there any proof India tries to play a brainy game in cricket? They do not seem to have a great game plan when playing a tougher opponent like Australia.

It is surprising though that outside India, you have a Vijay Singh become a world class golfer and he hails from a third world island, while India can't produce a single elite tennis player or golfer. Same with soccer. You got this guy in France who made their team. How many Indians from India would make the French team? Something is missing, I don't know what.

Wow, I think Canada fielding a field hockey team for the Olympics while India is out illustrates how pitiful the Indian hockey team is. That would be like India advancing past Canada in a world ice hockey playoffs. Who even cares about field hockey in Canada.

It's funny how the US soccer team is more internationally ready than the Indian soccer team. You do not need freaking resources for soccer. All you need is a ball and an open field.

This guy is 27. What's the arc of his life thus far? Is he done with college? Has he deffered college? Of course, i am asking desi-uncle questions but it would be interestin to know how he detoured from the standard desi amreekan dream.

neale, you are asking very uncle-ish questions. you'll want to know his SAT results next :)

39 · Pravin said

It's funny how the US soccer team is more internationally ready than the Indian soccer team. You do not need freaking resources for soccer. All you need is a ball and an open field.

Clubs and national federations don't spend millions of dollars for nothing.

Neale, I think I remember reading he competed on the OSU Buckeye gymnastics team.

This guy is 27. What's the arc of his life thus far? Is he done with college? Has he deffered college? Of course, i am asking desi-uncle questions but it would be interestin to know how he detoured from the standard desi amreekan dream.

He will probably write a book if he ends up winning a medal at the Olympics. That might net him a few hundred thousand dollars including team sponsorships etc.

i think raj graduated from ohio state uni

Lily:

Here's a shameless plug for my husband, one of the team members

Anyone in India who can figure out why the country has not struck Olympic Gold in recent years and can make good the deficiency will deserve a Gold. (Rathor won a Silver at the last Olympics, which led to considerable jubilation in India.)After all there was a time when the Men's Indian Hockey team was virtually guaranteed the Gold.

about the “world’s worst Olympians,” where India actually tops the list (only 17 medals in its entire history)

If "dissing Indian men at parties was an Olympic event", desi women would sweep. I can just imagine the announcer...

"Oh there he goes, a nice, honest, human being... approaches to say hi... OWWW her friend came and whisked her away. That was close, she almost got to hear the 'hhh' on that one... much too close."

I think part of the reason India has such a weak olympic presence is genetic. There have been a lot of recent studies showing that certain gene alleles that make people more susceptible to diabetes and cardiovascular disease are found in relatively high frequency in India. I think Indians on a whole are just less genetically athletic, we tend to have more flabby bodies with higher body fat concentrations. It could also be bad nutrition and terrible maternal health.

india has the lowest rate of alzheimer's in the world. plus the numbers for cancer, dementia and arthritis are lower than in the west as well.

It could also be bad nutrition and terrible maternal health.

Yeah, the fact that our food is so oily the US would declare war on it, just might have something to do with it.

india has the lowest rate of alzheimer's in the world

so we'll make sure to remember how fat and unathletic we are.

Sri Lanka is sending eight (or maybe seven, depending on how we add 3+4)
___________________________________________________________________________

Perhaps this isn't merely an arithmetical error:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jul/30/olympicgames2008.gender

I watch Raj Bhavsar's clips and think he fit for olympid. best of luck. you can do it. I awaiting your game.

Did Pam Anderson pay for him too?

The only muscle Indians use on a habitual basis is the brain, reflecting our poor performance in the Olympics.

Genetics has to be a large part of the answer; people like bhavsar are the rare exceptions that proves the rule (if both his parents are from India); I am pretty sure that the woman gymnast who represented US in the last olympics (if she did) was half Indian.

it is a struggle for me to remain fit (forget muscular) and within the normal weight range, despite running quite a bit (average 3 miles a day), refraining from extra calories, and doing light weights.. Same for my daughter, who despite a lot of training, struggles with upper body exercises (pull ups) while many of her caucasian friends do it without any training! Some indians who did well in Men's Tennis (the Krishnans) were very poor athletes (i.e. they over-achieved).

a simple prediction would be that mixed indian-americans (with european or other admixture) would do better at sports.. we have the example of anglo-indians who dominated many sports when they had a presence in India.

india isnt that good at cricket either and the standard of soccer is terrible.. barely edging out Afghanistan (the 181st ranked country) in a recent match. Lots of dirt poor african countries with terrible facilities are way ahead on the medal count.

Maybe the benefits of genetics (low Alzheimer rate etc) is the other side of the coin.

I think part of the reason India has such a weak olympic presence is genetic. There have been a lot of recent studies showing that certain gene alleles that make people more susceptible to diabetes and cardiovascular disease are found in relatively high frequency in India. I think Indians on a whole are just less genetically athletic, we tend to have more flabby bodies with higher body fat concentrations. It could also be bad nutrition and terrible maternal health.

I just find your statement so vacuous. India spends very little (and I read somewhere) and is one of the countries that spends the least on its olympic athlete training.

China in contrast, though also a poor country with millions living below the poverty line, spends a ton; It'd be great to root for an olympic medal field hockey team. I still remember my dad speaking with pride about their accomplishments in the past. I'd like to know how much they spent in the past compared to other countries. How much investment is used for the current crop of say field hockey team medal contestants compared to the Indian team; what facilities they have as compared to the Indian teams, etc.

I think the US and African Americans in the US also have a high rate of diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Not sure what India's rate is compared with other countries.

Here's a good article on exactly how much China spends on its athletes and the potential cost of spending:

http://en.epochtimes.com/n2/opinion/costly-china-olympic-gold-1654.html

according to the article:

"Especially for a country that still has more than 200 million living below the poverty line, some believe China’s anticipated high medal ranking represents a poor allocation of resources."

"After the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games, the budget for the China Sports Bureau raised from three billion yuan ($USD 439 million) to five billion yuan ($732 million) per year. During the four years of preparation for the Athens Olympics, China spent 20 billion yuan ($3 billion), but the expense earned China 32 gold medals, making the cost for each gold medal nearly 700 million yuan ($102 million). Due to this high price for Olympic glory, China’ gold medals have been called “The most expensive gold medals in the world.”"

"Chinese track star Liu Xiang won a 110-meter hurdle at the Athens Olympics. Before this, his annual expense was about three million yuan, which included an environmentally-friendly running course for over a million yuan and several hundred thousand yuan for a new set of hurdles. The amount China spent on Liu Xiang could equal several hundreds even thousands of Elementary Schools of Hope—charity schools for kids in poor areas of China.

Wu Shouzhang, vice chairman of China’s Olympic Committee commented that the total cost for this endeavor is very difficult to calculate. He adds that, besides Liu, there are also medical doctors, scientists, nutritionists, field workers, document workers, as well as early investments made by Shanghai, Liu’s home city.

According to the “Report on China’s Olympic Gold Medal” issued by the China Branding Research Institute, the commercial value for Liu Xiang’s gold metal was worth 461 million yuan ($67.5 million) last year."

Wu Shouzhang, vice chairman of China’s Olympic Committee commented that the total cost for this endeavor is very difficult to calculate. He adds that, besides Liu, there are also medical doctors, scientists, nutritionists, field workers, document workers, as well as early investments made by Shanghai, Liu’s home city.

Which is why, if the mofo loses, his ass is sent up the YangTze

I bet there is a positive correlation, at the level of society, between age at first marriage and adult athletic accomplishment.
;-)

50 · ananya said

india has the lowest rate of alzheimer's in the world. plus the numbers for cancer, dementia and arthritis are lower than in the west as well.

Most Indians are not diagnosed for Alzheimers. They will just say grandpa has become old and blathering and ask him to sit in the corner.

Wu Shouzhang, vice chairman of China’s Olympic Committee commented that the total cost for this endeavor is very difficult to calculate. He adds that, besides Liu, there are also medical doctors, scientists, nutritionists, field workers, document workers, as well as early investments made by Shanghai, Liu’s home city.

Which is why, if the mofo loses, his ass is sent up the YangTze

By the way Shanghai has one of the highest rates of diabetes in China; and China is second to India in diabetes rates - though who's to say about underreporting in both countries or in other countries:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-02/20/content_6468137.htm

http://www.china.org.cn/english/health/188903.htm

4 · Keralite said

Heard of PT Usha and Milkha Singh?

Milkha Singh was sitting by a pool one day when a lady walked up to him and asked him if he was relaxing.

"No," he replied, "I'm Milkha Singh."

61 · Sil said

50 · ananya said

india has the lowest rate of alzheimer's in the world. plus the numbers for cancer, dementia and arthritis are lower than in the west as well.

Most Indians are not diagnosed for Alzheimers. They will just say grandpa has become old and blathering and ask him to sit in the corner.

Not quite...yesterday on Charlie Rose one of the docs on a genome panel indicated that his alphabet had been diagnosed as susceptible to Alz. He clearly stated that Indians are less susceptible to Alz due to the spices we imbibe in curry. And so, he eats curry regularly

36 · Lily said

Canada is sending 6 desis to the Beijing this year on one team - men's field hockey. Out of the 18 on the squad going to the Olympics, 6 are desis - 4 punjabis and 2 goans. [...] Here's a shameless plug for my husband, one of the team members.
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/sports/story.html?id=cdc8a38b-873e-476e-ae49-89c8fd4d6308

Congratulations to your husband, Lily! Your link didn't work for me, but I found the full Canadian Olympic field hockey squad bios here:

http://www.fieldhockey.ca/e/nationalteams/men/bios

Pravin

Wow, I think Canada fielding a field hockey team for the Olympics while India is out illustrates how pitiful the Indian hockey team is. That would be like India advancing past Canada in a world ice hockey playoffs. Who even cares about field hockey in Canada.

It's funny how the US soccer team is more internationally ready than the Indian soccer team. You do not need freaking resources for soccer. All you need is a ball and an open field.

I had a blogpost on this a while back. It isn't just that Canada is in (and half the team is of Indian origin, some actually born there). Pakistan and China are both in, and China is in for both Men and Women.

I don't think it is genetics or nutrition, though as noted in other threads, there are significant numbers of Indians who particularly lack good nutrition. But what about the rest? The 'killer instinct' and the 'desire to win' are important too.

Here is a short clip of Milkha Singh, who came closest to winning an Athletic medal for India - reminiscing about the Rome Olympics of 1960, especially how diligently he prepared for it over the previous 4 years - in Hindi with English subtitles - only to come in 4th in the finals, in what was not his personal best.

There's also significant corruption in the sports federations, and at the selection stage, and mismanagement and ineptness and denial. Here's a slightly longer set of clips of KPS Gill on IBNLive's 'Shoot-Out' program. You can see how the normally confident anchor is reduced to a quaking, quivering wreck by the Supercop, who admits nothing and takes no responsibility for the hockey debacle. (He was later forced to resign as chief of the Indian Hockey Federation).

Ironically, I remember it used to be said in India that of all the sports Indians couldn't do well at, gymnastics were up top, because the body build you needed for gymnastics was just not there (right, in all the seven, eight, nine hundred million... billion and a quarter Indians and counting). So Indian-Americans are showing that 'conventional wisdom' wrong, and thank God. And Indo-Canadians (and Pakistanis) are really showing India up in hockey. Bitter-sweet is the taste. Proud for Indians abroad, and sorry for India.

not sure if anyones already posted this, but bbc had a good mini history of some athletes India has sent to the Olympics over the years...

"The 'Flying Sikh' remembers"

Sports columnist Rohit Brijnath talks to the 'Flying Sikh' Milkha Singh, the finest athlete India has ever produced, ahead of the Beijing Olympics.

Most Indians are not diagnosed for Alzheimers. They will just say grandpa has become old and blathering and ask him to sit in the corner.

people who have the means to pay for their kids to get proffesional training would be too embarrassed to go to dinner parties and admit that beti or beta is going to be a sportsperson. years ago, an extremely wealthy relative of mine in mumbai was doing well professionally in tennis but when time came to make the decision whether to go for it or not, she chose not because of the kind of family friends around them. her dad was supportive but her mum is a bitchy socialite.

67 · RC said

What a silly ignorant comment. A quick google search would make it clear that even when adjusted for age, people in the US are 4 times more likely to have this disease compared to people in India.

Again, they are 4 times more likely in the US because the doctors "diagnose" them as such. Half the Indian rural population dont even have access to health care. and most of them dont even live up to 70 years old. Maybe you should google two things. One what is the life expectancy of Indians and two the meaning of diagnose.

Dinesh said ...

I think part of the reason India has such a weak olympic presence is genetic. There have been a lot of recent studies showing that certain gene alleles that make people more susceptible to diabetes and cardiovascular disease are found in relatively high frequency in India. I think Indians on a whole are just less genetically athletic, we tend to have more flabby bodies with higher body fat concentrations. It could also be bad nutrition and terrible maternal health.

ananya said ...

people who have the means to pay for their kids to get proffesional training would be too embarrassed to go to dinner parties and admit that beti or beta is going to be a sportsperson. years ago, an extremely wealthy relative of mine in mumbai was doing well professionally in tennis but when time came to make the decision whether to go for it or not, she chose not because of the kind of family friends around them. her dad was supportive but her mum is a bitchy socialite.

In American culture, sports play a huge role and is considered a yardstick of human achievement. Athletic talent and achievement is considered something to be proud of. In India, it seems to be largely considered a frivolous leisurely activity.

I'm not sure I agree with Dinesh and think ananya's comments are more on-target. My parents are both from India and I was born and raised in the U.S. I *unfortunately* have an athletic streak. In high school, I was encouraged to try out for cornerback on the football team, run the 100 meters, etc. by teachers and coaches due to very good quickness and footspeed.

I did run track and field in high school against my parents will (had to pay for my own uniform and shoes) in spite of discouraged and belittled for it by them. I dared not try out for the football team. The other kids parents would attend track meets and actually root for their children. Imagine that! I received more encouragement from my friends parents than from my own! I'm still bitter about their attitude towards sports to this day.

My niece has inherited athletic traits (she excels in both dance and soccer) and both my parents and much of her family on the father's side are dismayed that her parents allow her to participates in athletic activities.

Don't get me wrong though! India has more important things to worry about than snatching Olympic gold medals. Sanitation, health care, transportation, etc. I'm just saying I don't believe genetics alone plays a huge role in India's lack of Olympic success. Indian diet and culture simply isn't conducive at all to producing Olympic caliber athletes.

But all that aside, I wish Raj the best of luck!

Genetics has to be a large part of the answer; people like bhavsar are the rare exceptions that proves the rule (if both his parents are from India); I am pretty sure that the woman gymnast who represented US in the last olympics (if she did) was half Indian.

This is a bit like saying Indians must genetically be bad math because India only placed 31st in the 2008 international math Olympiad behind countries like Brazil, Khazakstan and Mongolia. Furthermore the highest ranking Indian only placed in the 63th percentile (bronze medalist).

However if you looked closer you would notice that Team USA which placed 3rd overall was 1/3 Indian American (quite an over representation), and both of the maccacas on the team were gold medalists (93 percentile).

I think genetics is a part of it, I don't see a person who is not of West African descent winning the 100m anytime soon. There is no doubt sports at which even Indians can excel: wrestling, hockey, middle distance running, swimming, diving etc...

PS Indians definitely have the potential to go far in Gymnastics

a simple prediction would be that mixed indian-americans (with european or other admixture) would do better at sports.. we have the example of anglo-indians who dominated many sports when they had a presence in India.

Cultural norms + relative average affluence wouldn't explain anglo-indian over representation ?

Sports in India is an activity for those with extra time and money.
The Parsis were pretty disproportionately represented in cricket at one point.

I predict that people of Indian origin in affluent countries outside of India will do better on a proportionate basis than Indians in India.

Again, they are 4 times more likely in the US because the doctors "diagnose" them as such.

Our ancient sculpture idealized man boobed devas and badonkadonk apsaras. Why would mere mortals aspire to more? Problem solved. Next.....

73 · louiecypher said

Our ancient sculpture idealized man boobed devas and badonkadonk apsaras. Why would mere mortals aspire to more? Problem solved. Next.....

Bwahahahahahahaha! Nice.

So there you have it--life imitates art and not the other way around. Two problems solved, louiecypher. High five.

Genetics has to be a large part of the answer; people like bhavsar are the rare exceptions that proves the rule........a simple prediction would be that mixed indian-americans (with european or other admixture) would do better at sports.. .....Lots of dirt poor african countries with terrible facilities are way ahead on the medal count.

Since africans tend to be the most genetically gifted athletes, an afro-desi admixture could produce the best results. Look at Sachin Tendulkar for example, India's greatest sportsman. With his curly hair, facial features, physique and color he looks more like an afro-amerindian mix from Brazil or Central America than a typical desi.

69 · Sil said

67 · RC said

What a silly ignorant comment. A quick google search would make it clear that even when adjusted for age, people in the US are 4 times more likely to have this disease compared to people in India.

Again, they are 4 times more likely in the US because the doctors "diagnose" them as such. Half the Indian rural population dont even have access to health care. and most of them dont even live up to 70 years old. Maybe you should google two things. One what is the life expectancy of Indians and two the meaning of diagnose.

Reading up on statistical sampling will help clear your misconceptions. Half the population not going to the doctors does not prevent studies to reach conclusions about the whole population.

76 · olaamigos said

Reading up on statistical sampling will help clear your misconceptions.

Thank you for saying that. I was quite stunned that not only was that earlier commenter insistent about his claim that underdiagnosis undermined any claims about disease occurrence, but that he/she was so obnoxious and rude in repeatedly asserting their misconception.

i have a friend here in the U.K. who won the county (state) gymnastics championship when she was a teenager. she's a doctor now. i also used to know a girl at school who was a musical violin playing genius. she gave it up and went to university to study economics. i don't know what she's doing now.

i'm a nutritionist and the rates of alzheimers and cancer are lower in desis living in the west as well. this is because the food we eat contain prevention qualities when it comes to some illnesses. turmeric prevents alzheimers and vegetables and lentils have antioxidants that prevent cancer. yes we are more prone to heart disease and diabetes due to being more sensitive to blood sugar issues. also, when i was training, the kind of digestive problems that caucasian people came in with were so bizarre. (i won't go into the gory details here). desis don't get these digestive problems because of the fibre in our diet. even if we eat crap after leaving home, the fact that we had this food growing up, helps to prevent future problems.

i'm not saying that it's only desi food that's good for health. i like the italian diet as well; cooked tomatoes have lycopene that are packed with antioxidants. french people drink lots of red wine which is good for the heart. japanese diet is good because of seafood.

i really think lack of enthusiasm for sports is more a cultural thing. there's a british born desi punjabi girl in england who is a rugby player and she said that when she started playing, the other girls around her used to use the word 'paki' when referring to asians which is like calling african americans niggers. here in the uk if someone wants to be a soccer or rugby player they are going to have deal with hanging out with really stupid people in the locker room and it's not nice to be the only asian among these beer swilling uncultured people.

i admire amir khan though, he's a successful boxer from england and he's won most of his fights. he's quite down to earth and is really popular.

www.amirkhan-boxing.com

73 · louiecypher said

Our ancient sculpture idealized man boobed devas and badonkadonk apsaras. Why would mere mortals aspire to more? Problem solved. Next.....

!!!hilarious

65 · chachaji said

Congratulations to your husband, Lily! Your link didn't work for me, but I found the full Canadian Olympic field hockey squad bios here:
http://www.fieldhockey.ca/e/nationalteams/men/bios

there's a player named Gabbar Singh! they're sure to win :)

Years ago Milkha Singh, who was born in 1938, became an Indian hero because even though he did not win a medal at the Olympics he broke the previous Olympic record for the fastest 400 meters: Rome, 1960. We need a present and a future that is at least as good as the past.

I think India's poor performance in athletics is prob. due to the attitude people have towards physical fitness. Most Indian parents want their kids to study, study, study. Athletic activities are considered a waste of time. I'm Sri Lankan and parents over here have a more welcoming attitude towards sports I think (mens sana in copore sanae and all that jazz). Of course Sri Lanka is not exactly a sporting powerhouse either but I think considering our size we do OK in comparison to India. Of course my Indian friends seem to think Sri Lankans are more athletic, we certainly do fight a lot LOL !!!

77 · Confused said

Thank you for saying that. I was quite stunned that not only was that earlier commenter insistent about his claim that underdiagnosis undermined any claims about disease occurrence, but that he/she was so obnoxious and rude in repeatedly asserting their misconception.

As opposed to thinking curry prevents Alzhemimers? really? then why aren't the "doctors" injecting patients with curry to cure. Hey how about developing a curry vaccine for westerners to prevent Alzheimers?

76 · olaamigos said

Reading up on statistical sampling will help clear your misconceptions. Half the population not going to the doctors does not prevent studies to reach conclusions about the whole population.

Here is a link for you on what prevents or rather helps a little bit. And all those talk about google search, maybe you guys should actually do it instead of just repeating old wives tale that curry is the elixir of life.

85 · Sil said

As opposed to thinking curry prevents Alzhemimers?

I was talking about this fact that you were insisting on.

as for "curry" (or curcumin as scientists prefer to call it), there is reason to believe that it has protective effects against alzheimers. it is not merely an "old wives tale", unless you have some information about all the ucla researchers on the paper being 60+ suburban grandmoms.

From the article link you provided
The body of research has prompted the UCLA Alzheimer's Disease Research Center (ADRC) to begin human clinical trials to further evaluate its protective and therapeutic effects.

In other words nothing scientific have been established, and the support group has sent the information to researchers. And we are already on the streets celebrating effects of curcumin.

In other words nothing scientific have been established

Well, enough scientific cause in animal trials "have" been established by researchers to actually begin human clinical trials. Of course, cures in animals do not always translate to cures in humans, although they often provide a strong indication, which is why they are in the process of trialing it.

and the support group has sent the information to researchers.

From the article:

The spice has also been found to correct the cystic fibrosis defect in mice, prevent the onset of alcoholic liver disease and may slow down the blood cancer multiple myeloma as well as multiple sclerosis.
Reporting in the 7 December online edition of the Journal of Biological Chemistry, researchers from the University of California Los Angeles also revealed that curcumin is more effective in inhibiting formation of the protein fragments than many other drugs being tested as Alzheimer's treatments.

Also, researchers in biochemistry and genetics who work on mice and other animals are not usually considered "support group" or "old wives".

I realize you have dug yourself into a rhetorical hole with all the nastiness you've been throwing about. And you seem to think there is some shame in admitting you're wrong, by first refusing to acknowledge your gross misunderstanding about how sampling works, and then flailing about to desperately find some other hokey probable cause to distract people with. So, I won't trouble you further with annoying facts.

89 · Confused said

Well, enough scientific cause in animal trials "have" been established by researchers to actually begin human clinical trials. Of course, cures in animals do not always translate to cures in humans, although they often provide a strong indication, which is why they are in the process of trialing it.
and the support group has sent the information to researchers.
From the article:
The spice has also been found to correct the cystic fibrosis defect in mice, prevent the onset of alcoholic liver disease and may slow down the blood cancer multiple myeloma as well as multiple sclerosis.
Reporting in the 7 December online edition of the Journal of Biological Chemistry, researchers from the University of California Los Angeles also revealed that curcumin is more effective in inhibiting formation of the protein fragments than many other drugs being tested as Alzheimer's treatments.
Also, researchers in biochemistry and genetics who work on mice and other animals are not usually considered "support group" or "old wives".
I realize you have dug yourself into a rhetorical hole with all the nastiness you've been throwing about. And you seem to think there is some shame in admitting you're wrong, by first refusing to acknowledge your gross misunderstanding about how sampling works, and then flailing about to desperately find some other hokey probable cause to distract people with. So, I won't trouble you further with annoying facts.

And I realize you have suddenly back pedalled that it may or may not work! And I still stand by the underdiagnosis of Alzheimers in India. Other than cities nobody there even bother to diagnose Alzheimers. 4.4 times is a joke. I don't see any data from your sampling plan to prove otherwise. A farmer living in the villages after 70 (if at all) doesnt even go to the doctor for memory loss. And even if he does nobody diagnoses him for Alzheimers. And it is the same reason Indians do not have that many psychiatric patients, if they are not counted then they are not part of your sampling plan, . Hell, just counting the number of neuroscientists will prove there are 4.4 times less neurosurgeons and neurologists in India who can diagnose that and probably 10 times less neurospecialists than the cities.

Milkha Singh’s son Jeev is ranked number 66 in the world in Golf. Also many people India see education as the only way to better their lives. As others before had mentioned, there was no real money in sports besides cricket.

NW said ...

I think India's poor performance in athletics is prob. due to the attitude people have towards physical fitness. Most Indian parents want their kids to study, study, study. Athletic activities are considered a waste of time.

I completely agree. I keep hearing genetics this, genetics that, blah blah blah. These are excuses, not reasons. Amardeep stated he tends to think culture isn't a huge factor and I very strongly disagree. Culture has EVERYTHING to do with India's lack of success in international athletics. The attitude NW described was exactly the attitude of my parents as I was growing up in the U.S. Sports and physical fitness are completely irrelevant according to them.

Again, don't get me wrong! In India, poverty, health care, sanitation, transportation, general infrastructure, etc., are far more important issues than establishing athletic programs geared at success in the Olympics, and I would never advocate some kind of governmental priority be placed on success in international athletics. But to say that culture is a non-factor is absurd.

90 · Sil said

And I realize you have suddenly back pedalled that it may or may not work!

I don't think I "was dancing in the streets celebrating the effects of curcumin, or as you seem to think, injecting patients with curry", or frontpedaling anywhere to have backpedaled anywhere. There is clear probable cause that curcumin has benefits based on fairly extensive and solid researchers, and it is a strong current hypothesis among researchers. I don't see how that is contradictory to anything else I ever said.

And further, my earliest comment was only expressing rank astonishment about your complete lack of comprehension about basic methodology. As for how sampling works, if you are really interested, you can try and understand how medical researchers determine the relative incidence of diseases etc. by reading up some basic literature on epidemiology and statistics, before persisting with assertions which are completely irrelevant to the claims at hand.

Do you really think that the research community is so unaware of the relative lack in medical care among India, as compared to the US that they needed a short-fused commenter on Sepia to tell them how stupid their claims are? Is it such a little known fact that medical care for the poor in India is not exactly first rate, and is it likely that somebody will make unqualified non-normalized claims about disease occurrence between India and the US? Have you even bothered to read the abstract of articles that actually evaluate Alzheimer incidence such as this which even make the specific observation (which I italicize below for the reading challenged) that you tout around, like you were a naked Archimedes who suddenly found water on his bathroom tiles.

There is a paucity of epidemiological data about dementia in India, where it is ignored and dismissed as senility. It is important to define and identify the treatable causes since it can initiate the process of the patient's (and his family's) adaptation to managing the disease symptoms.

90 · Sil said

And I still stand by the underdiagnosis of Alzheimers in India.

And in case the point is still not clear to you, not a single person in this thread has disputed this claim. But it is irrelevant to establishing the lower incidence of Alzheimer's in India. Most people over the age of 6 months to a year know that the ball still exists even when it has rolled behind the couch and is no longer visible.

@ 70 - Another ABCD :
My commiserations. I hope u are supporting your niece and telling the rest of the family to Shut the FU.

74 · Harbeer said

73 · louiecypher said

Our ancient sculpture idealized man boobed devas and badonkadonk apsaras. Why would mere mortals aspire to more? Problem solved. Next.....

Bwahahahahahahaha! Nice.

So there you have it--life imitates art and not the other way around. Two problems solved, louiecypher. High five.

See? MFAs have been screwing things up since Taxila University started granting this cursed degree circa 300 BC

96 · louiecypher said

See? MFAs have been screwing things up since Taxila University started granting this cursed degree circa 300 BC

Huh? I don't follow. Are you saying that MFAs "screw things up" by making art because people then imitate that art?

Your previous comment was funny. This one is just confusing. You should have quit while you were ahead.

Culture has EVERYTHING to do with India's lack of success in international athletics.

No, it has to do with what sports are highlighted in the international olympics. If certain activities were made into sports at the olympic level, India would clean house.

It is interesting to see how perceptions of toughness are formed. I must admit that I don't think of my fellow Indian-Americans or their middle/uppermiddle class relations back "home" as tough. But I have always thought the avg Indian in India is pretty damn tough in a scrappy way. The closest comparison I can think of is Jewish-Americans...they have an undercurrent of self deprecating humor about their supposed lack of athleticism. But their ancestor immigrants who first came to this country were certainly tough with a significant number of sports heroes. And Israelis (let's put aside politics for a moment) who are largely from the same Ashkenazi stock are thought of as physically tough by admirers and detractors alike. Don't draw conclusions based on the atypical segment of India that we represent

It's mostly about nutrition and the surplus that allows for people to invest time in non-economic endeavors like sports and art. I think everything else is a redherring. Yes, we are predisposed to cardiac illness but predisposition does not = certainty. And while we may not have the same % of people over six feet tall as N. Europeans, we certainly have enough to find/develop champion swimmers with the right investment. Focus on health & education and 20 years from now we can have a decent showing without any govt. investment

they have an undercurrent of self deprecating humor about their supposed lack of athleticism.

True. I had a Jewish friend who said people would give him snide looks because he was a Jewish person playing baseball. I told him, compared to their perception of me, you might as well be Lance Armstrong, Mike Tyson, Carl Lewis, Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretsky, and Derek Jeter combined.

And another thing, I see a huge divide between 20 something DBDs and those that are let's say 35 plus. Take a look at the outdoor clubs at your alma mater.....chock full of Indian boys & girls who are gung ho about multiday backpacking & rock climbing etc. Groups like "Team in Training" in the metros are full of DBDs training for marathons. This set knows what it will take to get established, so now they have the time to think beyond the practicalities that fully occupied the parents of ABDs.

Going back to the case of Jewish-Americans, which almost seems to be the reverse of ours, remember that the baseball diamond/boxing ring was once more accepting to them than the Ivy League & the professions. But once these became open, it was rational consideration that lead their parents to emphasize academic achievement

Take a look at the outdoor clubs at your alma mater.....chock full of Indian boys & girls who are gung ho about multiday backpacking & rock climbing etc. Groups like "Team in Training" in the metros are full of DBDs training for marathons.

Typical desi, exaggerating wildly to the point that it becomes a lie. Chock full of desis, eh? Have you no shame man?

I have watched plenty marathons etc and it is exceedingly rare to spot a desi in any of them.

Typical desi, exaggerating wildly to the point that it becomes a lie. Chock full of desis, eh? Have you no shame man?

Kaka-ji, why the handle shifting? Speak the truth boldly. That's what Mao would want.

chock full of Indian boys & girls

If anything, it's desi boys, you rarely see desi girls do any kind of sports, and it's usually two reasons:

1. Desi Parents find sports very un-lady like.
2. Desi girls don't want to break a nail.

let's call a spade a spade. indians are just not athletic people. it's not a money issue.

the standard set of excuses we regurgitate every 4 years (no funding, no parental support for sports participation, etc.) is a crock of shit.

many poorer nations with much smaller populations produce larger numbers of higher quality athletes with even more pathetic funding.

there are countless examples of dirt poor athletes who grew up with no facilities or funding whatsoever and made it big...african runners, brazilian soccer players, mexican boxers, NBA basketball stars, etc.

Mac (Prema): Welcome back TJ's champion donkey fluffer. I didn't say they were "ranking", I just they were participating in this group that helps avg ordinary people train for this at an amateur level of performance. And I stand by this, Team in Training is full of desis who have it as a goal to finish a marathon. Good bye, keep those burros happy

african runners, brazilian soccer players, mexican boxers, NBA basketball stars, etc.

these are outliers, you cannot use the exceptions to prove the rule.

105 · Nikhil said

let's call a spade a spade.

Nikhil/Mac/Prema, as a poor Indian, I have a question. What is a spade?

104 · HMF said

1. Desi Parents find sports very un-lady like.
2. Desi girls don't want to break a nail.

You forgot the big one.

107 · HMF said

these are outliers, you cannot use the exceptions to prove the rule.

Well, those are an awful lot of outliers.

You forgot the big one.

Which is?

111 · HMF said

Which is?

Oh, c'mon...its so obvious. As big as the sun.

Well, those are an awful lot of outliers.

Really? what percent of the african population become world class runners? nba basketball stars? what percent of the black population are they? Secondly, all those sports mentioned require very little, if any investment into equipment, proper fields, etc...

Based on the random conjectures thrown out willy-nilly on this comment thread based on the scientifically rigorous "a guy/gal i know" method, it looks like this community will do really well if "pulling theories out of your ass" is made an Olympic sport.

113 · HMF said

Really? what percent of the african population become world class runners? nba basketball stars? what percent of the black population are they?

shouldn't you know the answer if you claim they are outliers. anecdotally, it appears there are a lot of poor athletes around. But, once again, I don't really have a dog in the fight. wherever the data goes, I'll go on this one.

i think larry summers said that desis are on average as atheltic as any other group, but exhibit less variance, ie congregate around the mean, and therefore are less represented in the extremes.

shouldn't you know the answer if you claim they are outliers.

I do know the answers.. qualatatively. the questions were rhetorical.

for example, africas population is 922 million. lets say there are 100,000 track athletes in the world, that's still .01% , assuming every single track athlete is of african descent. which isn't true.

117 · HMF said

for example, africas population is 922 million. lets say there are 100,000 track athletes in the world, that's still .01% , assuming every single track athlete is of african descent. which isn't true.

I'm not sure how relevant that is to prema's point. the question is are world-class athletes from poor backgrounds are outliers or common. they appear to be fairly common and he gave a lot of examples, lending credence to the argument that we suffer more from nature than nurture, though not necessarily, since jalebis may be to blame.

why don't all the people who idle away their time on this blog by arguing just for the sake of argument go and hit the gym instead?

i'm refering of course to those sad sacks who think genetics plays a part in athletic ability. it has all to do with culture, peer and parental pressure, support, etc

119 · chick pea said

why don't all the people who idle away their time on this blog by arguing just for the sake of argument go and hit the gym instead?

i'm there, as soon as my jalebi suger buzz kicks in.

dear pseudo chick pea:

stop using my handle.
thank you.

I didn't say they were "ranking", I just they were participating in this group that helps avg ordinary people train for this at an amateur level of performance. And I stand by this, Team in Training is full of desis who have it as a goal to finish a marathon.

No one mentioned anything about ranking so quit arguing with a straw man. You claimed (lied brazenly actually) that outdoor clubs in colleges, and teams in training for marathons in metro areas, are "chock full" of desis. You can "stand by" this falsehood all you want louiecypher, but what do you hope to accomplish doing that? It just makes you look foolish and delusional.

107 · HMF said

african runners, brazilian soccer players, mexican boxers, NBA basketball stars, etc.
these are outliers, you cannot use the exceptions to prove the rule.

Your assertion is a truism. All championship athletes are "outliers", whether from Zimbabwe or from the United States. By definition, someone with exceptional skill and achievement is an "outlier".

The question then, is why do some countries produce significantly more athletic champions/outliers than others? I don't think the generic answer of "poverty" is a sufficient explanation. If that were the case, how can you explain, for example, the incredible number of Mexican world boxing champions? After the United States, no other country in the last 50 years has produced as many world boxing champs as Mexico. The list below is a sampling of some of Mexico's boxing champions, but it is in no way exhaustive. Granted, these guys are all outliers, but Mexico is a country with less than 10% the population of a China or an India. You would expect that countries with much larger populations would produce proportionally a much larger crop of star athletes. But this is not the case. In my own view, genetics and culture probably play equally important roles in determining these outcomes.

Rodolfo Martinez 1974-1976
Carlos Zarate 1976-1979
Lupe Pintor 1979-1985
Marcos Villasana 1990-1991
Gregorio Vargas 1993
Alejandro Gonzalez 1995
Manuel Medina 1996
Cesar Bazan 1998-1999
Cesar Soto 1999
Jesús Chávez 2003-2004
Erik Morales 2004
Marco Antonio Barrera 2004-2007
Juan Manuel Márquez 2007-2008
Antonio Margarito 2008-??

Saludos!

how can you forget julio cesar chavez? is it b/c you know he really lost to pernell?

Your assertion is a truism. All championship athletes are "outliers", whether from Zimbabwe or from the United States. By definition, someone with exceptional skill and achievement is an "outlier". The question then, is why do some countries produce significantly more athletic champions/outliers than others? I don't think the generic answer of "poverty" is a sufficient explanation.

Good point, clearly expressed. But I wont be surprised if HMF still doesn't get it :)

125 · Manju said

how can you forget julio cesar chavez? is it b/c you know he really lost to pernell?

Chavez is in a class all by himself, man. It would be a disrespect to stick The Lion of Culiacan on a list as if he was a mere mortal. ;-)

Considered one of the greatest fighters in history, Chávez won six world titles in three weight divisions: WBC Super Featherweight (1984), WBA Lightweight (1987), WBC Lightweight (1988), WBC Super Lightweight (1989), IBF Light Welterweight (1990), and WBC Super Lightweight (1994). Chávez also went undefeated for 93 bouts before his first retirement with a record of 104-5-2 (80 knockouts). World champions whom Chávez defeated include Jose Luis Ramírez, Rafael Limon, Rocky Lockridge, Meldrick Taylor, Roger Mayweather, Lonnie Smith, Sammy Fuentes, Héctor "Macho" Camacho, Juan Laporte, Edwin Rosario, Greg Haugen, Tony López, Giovanni Parisi, Joey Gamache, and Frankie Randall, who had taken the WBC light welterweight belt from Chávez just four months earlier. He lost to only two champions: Oscar De La Hoya and Kostya Tszyu. He was held to a draw by two others: Pernell Whitaker and Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

127 · Tony G. said

Chavez is in a class all by himself, man.

tony, I disrespected Chavez b/c I think he's one of the most cowardly fighters in boxing history. He lost to whitaker, the greatest fighter of that era, and more improtantly refused to give him a rematch so pernell could never reverse the robbery.

ditto for randall, who beat him and in the rematch was beating him again until chavez used an accidenttal headbut to quit, resulting in a weird victory. he refused a remtach for poor frankie until frankie was over the hill.

Oscar de la hoya clobbered him and if you watch the 2nd fight chavez quit on his stool.

he generally avoided the top fighters in the game, choosing to beat up on the greg haugans, but dodging simon brown and buddy mcgirt. his shining glory was a comeback victory against meldrick taylor, which was a gift too, but since taylor was never the same i think chavez would've beet him in an immediate rematch.

The list below is a sampling of some of Mexico's boxing champions, but it is in no way exhaustive. Granted, these guys are all outliers, but Mexico is a country with less than 10% the population of a China or an India. You would expect that countries with much larger populations would produce proportionally a much larger crop of star athletes. But this is not the case. In my own view, genetics and culture probably play equally important roles in determining these outcomes.

Well Mexico has a rich deep boxing tradition. Boxing is in their culture. Oscar De La Hoya, Julio Cesar Chavez, and Erik Morales all come from boxing families. And I'm guessing most (maybe all?) of those fighters started boxing at young ages. Boxing is simply a very popular sport in Mexico. I strongly suspect Mexico's success in boxing is more a matter of culture than genetics. Likewise, football (as in soccer) is hugely popular in Brazil; Brazil's success in international soccer isn't a matter of Brazilians being genetically predisposed to soccer.

Does India have any sports traditions. Maybe cricket? Well guess what, India is doing well in international cricket. Any other popular sports? Eating laddu and jalebi don't count! I'd say no. So I still suspect culture and tradition play a larger role than genetics.

One very important reason that people seem to missing out about the cultural differences regarding how athletes are treated in countries that have a strong sports culture: sex appeal. All those Mexican boxers have droves of female fans, despite the sport being a bloody one. If single men knew that that athletic talent would guarantee them a access to lots of adoring female fans and sex in India, I think we'd see more interest. The whole history of the Olympics has been connected with sex and sex appeal. Wives of the old senators et al were not allowed to attend the Olympics as they would possibly get dissatisfied with their old geezers of husbands on seeing the young athletes , who participated in the events naked. I remember seeing a picture of Prakash Padukone touching the feet of some minister after winning his championship years ago. A far cry from getting mobbed female fans.

Cause and effect are being conflated. Mexico's great boxers are all post 1960s. India's boxing tradition is much older (having been introduced by the British in the Indian army). India's football (soccer) tradition is over 100 years, players are well paid, club organization is good, but the ranking is abysmal. Soccer, in my opinion, is the clearest example of the role of genetics (India clubs stars are no-hoper africans and brazilians). EPL is gaining popularity on TV (many Indians follow the english league because Indian soccer is way substandard). If India cracked the top 75 in soccer (and thats not asking a lot is it?), that would be nothing short of a miracle and I dont see it happening in the next 10 or even 20 years. Thailand also does reasonably well at boxing and they have their own version (kick boxing). Genetics also influences culture.. so not all cultural effects can be seen as independent of genetics. Desis are actually reasonably good at racket sports (esp squash > shuttle badminton > tennis > table tennis in relative order of depth) with some pakistanis dominating squash for decades. In racket sports, lack of size, foot speed, and upper-body strength can be compensated for (although in tennis, thats becoming less likely with the new racket technology) with hand-eye coordination and technical skills. In Athletics, the only area where India has decent records is middle distances. China wins the medals it does by careful investment and by maximizing the genetic potential it does have (the story of the guy who won the 110 hurdles is amazing.. apparently his technique is amazing even though his 100m speed is slower than many of the african guys he beats). My brother was in the indian military equivalent of west point and they go through a gruelling physical regimen (they are all fit).. still usually some foreign cadet from africa who studied there usually won the distance races.

--
Brazil's success in international soccer isn't a matter of Brazilians being genetically predisposed to soccer.
--

soccer is a sport that requires elements of speed, endurance, skills, and size/strength. One can be substandard on one dimension but not more than that (except for the goalkeeper who needs to be tall and quick). Its hard to find Indian players who are not substandard on two of the four dimensions. If they have speed and skills, they lack strength and endurance.. and so the story goes.. So the outliers one needs (people who are really good on 3 of 4 dimensions) are hard to find.. because they are very rare. Brazil's strength comes from the variety of peoples they have.. from the pure african types (pele) to the mixed variety and the pure white type (zico).

The island of trinidad and tobago is not known as a soccer powerhouse but they did qualify for a world cup. Their team (from memory) is entirely composed of carribeans of african origin. Funnily half the island is made up of descendants of Indian laborers. Trinidadian culture is hardly bookish or anti-sports. Explain why there is not a single Indian on the Trinidad Soccer team.. Extra points for bonus question: Explain why the Math olympiad team from Trinidad (again, not known as a powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination) in 2007 was entirely composed of Indian origin males. If these differences dont scream genetics, I dont know what else will!

Tony G: sorry to go off on JCC. Pet peeve of mine, like california rolls.

sn said ...

Cause and effect are being conflated. Mexico's great boxers are all post 1960s. India's boxing tradition is much older (having been introduced by the British in the Indian army). India's football (soccer) tradition is over 100 years, players are well paid, club organization is good, but the ranking is abysmal.

Your points are well taken and hey, maybe you're right. But I was speculating from personal experience rather than "conflating cause and effect". Ok, sure, I'm of Maharashtrian descent, of typically short height and medium build, and was certainly hopeless with the shotput :P But I did very well in middle distance track events (800m, 1500m) here in the U.S., and I could even hold my own in the 100m and 200m (the track team of the high school I attended was stacked in those events though). And yes, I competed against Blacks and Latinos. One fellow two years my senior (I could not defeat him in the 400m) and was of Pakistani descent. I guess it's possible I'm some kind of Desi genetic freak, but I do know my parents definitely didn't want me winning track events. They wanted me winning spelling bees, science contests, academic awards, etc. They were most definitely anti-sports. My personal experience and the experience of other Desi people I know leads me to think culture does play a role.

The United States doesn't do so well in soccer internationally but should be able to dominate if it were all about the gene pool. Soccer, although popular with kids and adolescents, just isn't as glorious as American football, baseball, or basketball in American culture. Athletes like Allen Iverson, Barry Sanders, etc., would probably have been devastating soccer players. But ... why would or should they play soccer instead of more prestigious and lucrative sports.

You mention Thailand ... Thais ARE NOT known for athleticism at all, but they have a rich martial tradition in Muay Thai which carries over well into professional boxing. And you'll have a very hard time convincing me the Dominican Republic's success in baseball and Dominican players representation in American Major League baseball is due to some genetic predisposition as opposed to the intense popularity of the sport in that nation.

As for Trinidad and Tobaggo, I can't really comment since I've never been there and don't know anyone from there. Maybe your comments are spot on in that regard. But India's is a country of some 1 billion people, a population comparable to China. Sure, India's government doesn't subsidize sports like China does. But even still, India's almost complete absence in international sports is difficult to explain without taking culture into account.

BTW ... no, I don't think success in international sports is of any great importance compared to other issues India faces.

Good point, clearly expressed. But I wont be surprised if HMF still doesn't get it

No I do get it, I was answering the point of African runners. But thanks for coming out of the woodwork to insult someone you've no comprehension of.

Moreover, to answer Tony's point. I do think poverty has a determining factor. Again, what do you need to box? gloves, mouthgard, and a whole lot to be pissed about. Remember Chris Rock's joke, "For every black boxer that beats on a white guy, there's a Native American waiting to kick his ass."

It's the reasons why Black families are those that push sports the hardest in the US. (ie Williams sisters) What other viable opportunities are available to them? I'm not sure about the Mexican culture/opportunity structure but my guess, it heavily involves athletics. But in places like China/India your ability to code defines your dick size (like Thomas Friedman said, in China, Bill Gates is Britney Spears, in the US, Britney Spears is Britney Spears)

BTW ... no, I don't think success in international sports is of any great importance compared to other issues India faces.

It shouldn't be an end goal, rather a by-product of a more health-conscious, active culture. Parents can't believe their kids are wasting time by playing sports (other than cricket)

In my view, Indians should do martial arts more, we invented that sh*t. Plus when we emigrate here, we need to defend ourselves from mostly white bullies.

Parents can't believe their kids are wasting time by playing sports (other than cricket)

Yeah, I'd have to agree. I don't think sports are exactly a complete waste of time either. A lot of American parents believe that sports teach values useful in life. Stuff like discipline, leadership, teamwork, the value of hard work, perseverance under adverse conditions, dedication, etc. "It builds character!" as they say. There is some truth to that mentality. True, there might be an overemphasis on sports at the collegiate level in the U.S., but sports have their place in culture and society. This is in very direct conflict with Indian culture and psychology in which sports are a frivolous waste of time.

In my view, Indians should do martial arts more, we invented that sh*t.

I always thought it was odd that India's martial traditions aren't widely upheld and practiced as are other martial art traditions from around the world. Kalaripayattu, the Rajput martial traditions, etc., they're all but dead and unknown outside of India.

All the while, I can peruse through a phone book and find studios that teach Karate, Kendo, Kung-Fu, Taekwondo, Hapkido, Muay Thai, Capoeira, Vale Tudo, Krav Maga etc. which represent martial traditions from all over the world: Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, West Africa, Brazil, Israel, etc.

The last of the traditional Tamil martial arts (e.g. adithada kick boxing, wrestling) seem to have disappeared in the 50s when my dad was a teenager. Good thing is that in part this was due to the collapse of vestiges of feudalism in TN, but it would of have been great if this could have been opened to all and expanded instead of disappearing. Right now the few students of these forms are East Asians & Europeans. But I do see scope for a resurgence. Upper Middle class parents in Chennai send their kids to karate classes so clearly there is a market for someone to do this as a livelihood

Amardeep,

Kinds of late in this discussion, but my Econ prof at Berkeley actually wrote a superb paper on this topic.
You can read about it here. An NPR Morning Edition program on it is here.

107 · HMF said

these are outliers, you cannot use the exceptions to prove the rule.

let's say that i show you two newborn baby boys - one russian and one indian. the two boys will grow up together in the US with the same parents, diet, etc...an identical upbringing. let's also say that i have a crystal ball and tell you that twenty five years later, one will be able to run the 100m faster and bench press more weight than the other.

if i put a gun to your head and tell you to correctly predict the baby with greater athletic inclination or die, which will you choose?

Karate, Kendo, Kung-Fu, Taekwondo, Hapkido, Muay Thai, Capoeira, Vale Tudo, Krav Maga etc. which represent martial traditions from all over the world: Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, West Africa, Brazil, Israel, etc.

Many of these have commercialized (and probably lost some of its tradition - for ex, in korean MA, you need to bow to black belts and shake hands a certain way, but most TKD schools drop that) KP hasn't as such, I've been to a KP school in bangalore, run by Ranjan Mullarat, and for example the students there when they enter, touch the feet of the instructor (like a guru-shishya relationship) now you won't be able to get Susie homemaker to agree to have little Jimmy touch the feet of some guy every time he walks in to the "dojo"

i don't understand why some of us are getting defensive about this.

Ok, Indians generally aren't genetically as athletically predisposed as people of other ethnicities. I get it already! But I think you're missing the point. It's more like this ... take two Indian boys who are identical twins, genetically and physiologically similar as two humans can be. Let's say they are separated at birth. One one raised in India and the other raised in the United States by American parents. Which one will have a greater athletic inclination and opportunity to utilize whatever athletic traits they they may possess? How about two Indian girls?

How about two Indian girls?

Are any of them not raised on earth?

quizman
--
Kinds of late in this discussion, but my Econ prof at Berkeley actually wrote a superb paper on this topic.
--

The "superb" paper doesn't mention India at all (of course its not hard to make a prediction, duh); I am guessing its probably the biggest outlier there is to their theory.. and consequently merits omission!

another abcd

You are raising a straw man. no one is denying that the environment/culture matters in achievement (of any sort); extreme deprivation in childhood can stunt intelligence, sure. so what? The point is that genetics sets rather sharp limits for sporting ability. and at the extremes (which is what the olympics are) genetics matters much more than in the middle (high school sports). Its just a consequence of how statistical distributions work. modest mean differences are vastly amplified at the extremes. How many people of indian orgin in the US make their living off competitive sports? Probably 100-fold fewer than people of african origin? To blame it on culture is to confuse cause and effect. Indian parents are totally rational (although they could be wrong in some cases, such as yours) when they don't encourage their wards to invest efforts competing in domains where the payoff is low (this is different from working out for health and entertainment reasons); where there are exceptions (tennis?) its because there is a record of indian kids doing well.. and (getting back to topic) maybe now gymnastics. Maybe in the future talented indian kids (at least at the high school level) will be able to participate like the others (I suspect quite a few already do.. an acquaintance's daughter is very good in basketball.. too bad about her height). I'd venture that african american parents dont do enough to encourage their kids in sports (or anything else for that matter). if you read the history of some of the nfl/nba/mlb players you'll find out their parents didnt have too much to do with their success (unlike the atypical williams sisters).

A concrete example of a caucasian-indian kid. Dad is way shorter than mom who has talent/interests in sports. Kid is tall, athletic and excels in volleyball (star in school). What if the dad had married a shorter indian with interests in sports and equally encouraging?

2008 international math Olympiad

fyi, math olympiads, physics olympiads etc. are not like the olympic games. In the sense that, it is a problem solving contest meant only for high school students. (because it wouldn't make much sense to hold such a problem solving competition beyond a certain level)

It's amazing that people don't think that sports can help grow India's economy and poverty situation. How often have an opportunity to participate in sports allowed the poor to climb the ranks and find prosperity. And while very few will make millions, a lot can find hope and opportunity to compete and participate regardless of social structure.
As well, with the amount of sponsorship that exists, India would be able to welcome in a lot of money to help fund these programs without ever sacrificing a commitment to education and solving poverty.

anyone know how to get one of those t-shirts that Raj's parents were wearing while watching him perform? black and white of raj on the rings. pretty bad ass.

Just saw the background piece about Raj on NBC. Made me proud, and I think kids secretly liked seeing him too.
Coincidentally, I'm just about to go watch the "Harold and Kumar .. " DVD with Kal Penn. I guess Desis are finally starting to break the Doctor/Engineer stereotype? Let's hope so.

I dissagree with this statement
"Indians generally aren't genetically as athletically predisposed"

Especially in Gymnastics. Gymnastics you are not trained to be the fasted or the strongest. You are training against your own body. You have to have the strength to lift your own body and a smaller person is actually at an advantage. The one disadvantage Indians may have is their diet of no eating meat, but this can probably be overcome with other nutrients to build muscle.

India not performing....because of
1) Indians are good in some places. Are Americans cribbing why they are bad in Chess and Spelling Bee(not a sport but just fits for example)
2) Indians are cricket nation.
3) Last but not the least we are not intrested. We don't care much in sports and we are not a sports persons.
Why crib to be what we are not.
Just enjoy what you are.

I did some RnD on this Raj.
He is a Gujju Veggie !!! Can you believe all those muscles are Vegeteraian.This proves that Veg or non-veg you have to do your training to get your musles.

Everybody I have read your comments and will give my opinion based on my experience and knowledge.

Overall of course nutrition, sanitation, education is more important than sports. But sports also has a place in India. This has always been the way.

In my experience in general cricket is the only sports which has grass-roots level scouting across India. And it continues all the way to state and national level and of course international.

I have experience of 3 sports at competitive level - Track and Field (State), Tennis (State but only for 1 season) and Volleyball (national).

The main thing that is needed is GRASSROOTS level facilities, dedicated training facilities and coaching, of course investment and status / salary / sponsorship by society/business. Then it needs to be supported by the State and Nationally. For example Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra, Punjab, Delhi & some other places have a somewhat strong TRack and field representation (relative to India) in some states and there is governance and a programme, but not in other states which have no tradition/no perceived natural talent.

We need coaches - the quality of coaches in India is very varied. Some are extremely good and some are really poor - an example in Volleyball. I went on a summer camp to another state and was shocked that the coach was not familiar with the recent volleyball changes and generally poor training methods and open favouritism. This doesnt inspire anyone - the "Non-favourites" and even the favourites get a sense of superiority/inflated perception of their talent.

Another thing you talked about - women - well I think overall, yes women are not encouraged for sports, but MANY MANY are. I am one of them and its been in my family - with my mother playing badminton as a youth. An aunty of mine played volleyball. My cousin (girl) plays tennis and another is a Tae Kwon do exponent representing India or at least State level. Some other girls in my family are not sportswomen but enjoy sports and outdoors. We are not the norm, but also we are not unusual. Just for the record - someone mentioned it before - I was a very strong swimmer as a kid and was a good as the boys upto 15..but then quit of my own accord as there was no female swimming trainer/facilities and I just enjoyed other sports more.

But I'm trying to give you a background - and the truth is - overall there is not enough money invested at all levels into sports in India - I talked about this before - grassroots, governance, coaching, experience of attending international meets, sponsorship, making a living!! Bindra who won the Gold in Shooting said that his family is rich, his dad had a shooting range in their garden. Now people who live in cities - Bombay especially - who has a garden?? Or how many parks, sports arenas do we have for sports other than cricket some football. If we do - how many of these are in useable state? Some are seriously a health hazard.

To the people who say genes is a problem - well I would disagree - I truly believe that had I been from a very rich background and didn't need to worry about sponsorship I would potentially have been on the international platform - definitely in Volleyball as this is my natural talent and interest.

My cousins - well the one in tennis is a State level player and wants to play on but she cant guarantee she will be a Sania Mirza/Suneeta Rao. If she cant guarantee this no one will sponsor her for all her ATP tournaments etc... so she has actually been very brave - postponed her 12th board exams for a year and then do them - but concentrate on tennis for one year (this year) and hope to reach national levels.

Tae Kwon do sis is deciding what to do..10th board this year which she is doing but will need to decide next year if any way of keeping her going as a career.

Let me tell you (I am the eldest) - its a HEARTBREAKING decision to make to decide your sport is a hobby when you REALLY believe you can be in the Top 25 with the right coaching and investment.

If you are from a more or less poor background - it may be "a way out" - but only if you are discovered young enough and somehow find the investment and coaching and really the chances of the poor are much less than middle class and rich. Only if they are in the Armed Forces or Railways will the less well to do guys get noticed.

I have friends (male and female) in other sports - including those mentioned and Badminton, martial arts, football (soccer), Table tennis, golf - more or less the same is true though Tennis may be changing.

Right now the best way to get into international scene if you're not a cricketer is to get corporate sponsorship but that is available to again only those who are already v good and usually have had great training/facilities.

Overall I will say if things were really really terrible before then in the last 5 years they have slightly improved - Asian Games next year has helped - but overall its still not going to win us medals in Olympic arena.

Genes - all heights are ok. Tall people needed for B'ball, V'ball, Swimming, Track and Field etc, but shorter people are ideal for Diving, Weighlifting, Boxing, Gymnastics. of course everyone needs to be lean and fit - this is generally not a problem in India though of course you have fat kids etc but then they prob dont enjoy sports anyway so we are not losing potential golds there.

Everyone has heard how Malayalees (kerala) and Punjabis are great at sports - yes overall this is true - but there is greater sports tradition in these places. I am not from either of these places and many of my sports friends are not - so talent is available all over India.

I am really trying to get through to all you guys that we have great potential sportspersons, who have the killer instinct (that really made me mad), nothing is wrong with our genes (I can be bold and say definitely not mine!!) or talent but the lack of coaching and monetary support, overall governance sucks. And even if we are middle class its difficult - we need a full scholarship to a US School on a sports scholarship.

I think the main things that support my argument is the two Indian origin gymnasts - Raj Bhavsar and Monisha (I think taht was her name). If they were Indian nationals would they have got medals at the Olympics? I can say most surely NOT. VERY SAD!!

Until Sports becomes higher on the agenda (ie. something that appeals to VOTING MASSES) I dont think things will change apart from increase in corporate sponsorship. ANd of course voting masses have many other things on their mind...as even do affluent Indian voters.

Ms. MSM

Oh yeah another thing I wanted to say - I am a vegetarian too. My cousins are not. Personally I dont think it matters as long as you are getting right quantity and variety of protein intake!

Raj poses with the rest of the team - lol.

http://www.towleroad.com/2008/08/us-male-gymnast.html

27 · jyotsana said

I would rather all Indians enjoy access to sanitation and clean water, than for the country to win even a single Olympic medal. There are a lot many more things for India and Indians to be disappointed about than not managing to win a few medals.

firstly, i congratulate raj bhavsar on achieving his goal to win an olympic medal. i applaud his parents for encouraging him 100% and i'm glad he respresents the diverse face of athletics in this country. at least the u.s. has a sports infrastructure to support him in his goals...which is more than i can say for countries like india, which is more concerned in promoting gaudy, trashy and incapable actresses to international stardom and is super-saturated with people who think sports to be an egotistical pursuit and wholly unimportant.

secondly, i want indians to enjoy access to sanitation and clean water AND a HUGE overhaul in their mentality towards sports. traditional idiosyncrasies which prevent both regular men and women from participating in them and the whole nonsense of involving bollywood in every aspect of indian society - especially in sports - is disgraceful, embarrassing and inherently damaging to not only creating a sports infrastructure but a healthy society.

105 · Nikhil said

let's call a spade a spade. indians are just not athletic people. it's not a money issue.

the standard set of excuses we regurgitate every 4 years (no funding, no parental support for sports participation, etc.) is a crock of shit.

many poorer nations with much smaller populations produce larger numbers of higher quality athletes with even more pathetic funding.

there are countless examples of dirt poor athletes who grew up with no facilities or funding whatsoever and made it big...african runners, brazilian soccer players, mexican boxers, NBA basketball stars, etc.

sub-3 says:

So, basically, veena raddy, raj bhavsar, etc. and not to mention a whole slew of regular indians in their 20's and 30's who are serious competitors in sports throughout the u.s. are exceptions to the rule right? i don't think so. there are plenty of indians who consider sports to be a major part of their life along with their real career and i'm not talking about those indan gym rats who pump iron after work in order to look good for girls. i'm talking about indians who seriously participate in sports at the collegiate and post-collegiate levels. i personally know some of them.

i really think it has to do with the mentality of people who have convinced themselves that they are not pre-disposed to doing something. i honestly think it's an idiotic attitude in general. i think if people gave sports an inportance in thier lives instead of thinking it as merely a matter of brawn versus brains, and started to participate in sports firstly for the sheer enjoyment of it and then develop a taste for competition, they would be quite successful.

most children in the u.s. who start out participating in sports do so because they have too much energy and need a healthy outlet for releasing it or they have at least one parent who is or was an athlete; there are other reasons too but these are the first ones that come to my mind. sports do build character, no mater what some people say.

not all, but many men and women who are very successful in their careers had or still have athletic prowess and it's not always due to their genetics. if some can claim genetic pre-disposition to sports, then others cannot...they've had to struggle to be successful in gaining athletic proficiency. pre-disposition means squat if you don't fully exploit that natural tendency. so to say that indians are just not athletic people is a total cop-out which absolves a whole race/nation from reaching their full potential in a whole new arena. it absolves them from not wanting to leave their cubilces and familiar professions and it absolves them from heading towards becoming fat and lazy.

aside from the hard-working villagers and those who are malnutritioned - who are poor, india's middle and upper classes are becoming increasingly soft and round. there are many 'specimen' who reside not only in india but abroad. if indians are pre-disposed to anything, it's a pre-disposition to think that they are pre-disposed to being or not being certain things. this pre-disposition has absolutely nothing to do with genetics but has everything to do with what kind of mentality the parents impress upon their kids, therefore they can't even claim "pre-" anything. they are just guilty of disposing thoughts of athleticism and gearing their kids toward doing well in school and taking part in cultural activities (while there is no harm in that, there is harm in not teaching kids to struggle and succeed together).

i think it's about time indians showed that they can stop making excuses for their inability to succeed in sports and start believing in themselves so that they can succeed.

goodnight all...it's WAAAAAAAY past my bedtime, i have a race to run in the morning.