Great observations, Vinod. To which I will add: the dominate mode of our postmodern artistic tradition here in the West is irony. Other traditions, obviously, don't share that world-weary individualism. Indian music is tough on the ears of a culture that sees the un-ironic as unsophisticated and silly. The un-ironic stuff we do have (like ABBA or Air Supply or Broadway) is relegated to camp or nostalgia. Irony is all. And it wasn't Alanis Morissette's doing. When we stopped believing that "Beauty is truth, truth beauty,--that is all / Ye know on earth and all ye need to know" and realized that The Truth is really quite ugly (trench warefare, gas chambers, nuclear annihilation, My Lai, Abu Ghraib), we found unbridled optimism repugnant. So Bollywood won't catch on over here.

Here's ends your 120-word overview of Western art of the 20th century.

I can understand why Hindustani & Carnatic music is not popular - These forms of music are highly evolved (Over 800 years! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_music) and use complex beats that makes it hard for the common person to "tap their feet". On the other hand some Bollywood music did cross over - Chaiya - Chaiya (Featured in Inside Man) & Mundia de Back Ke (Punjabi MC) and probably more that I am not aware of.

People here know. Zakir Hussain sells out every show he plays in the west and it's not only the desis who go.

Preston,
"...we found unbridled optimism repugnant ?"

In america? You gotta be kidding. Have you seen any news about foreclosures or disasters on CNN? The interviewees are unnaturally composed and air brushed. America is champion of keeping up appearances.

I think the "we" is a minority - those who are looking for the truth under the gloss.

BTW,
Asians were not brought over as slaves.
Apples and oranges IMHO.

interesting post. as an example, the east and west do meet occasionally in utterly charming ways . [song is from hindi movie chaya and is seeded with mozart's symphony num 40].

Vinod opines, Although I speak / understand basically zero Hindi...

I’m going to go way way way out on a limb and toss out another personal, vastly underinformed, pet theory on this that focuses not just on the musical structure, language barriers, and the like but also tosses in some cultural context...

I know I’m painting with some very broad brush strokes here and exceptions abound but I really do think that when folks in a Bollywood frame of mind want to listen to some tunes, the last thing they want...

Should we bother about a post containing all these gems. Well let's see of we can. Tyler Cowan discussed sound, not the lyrics, and Vinod from there jumped in without any expertise in either sound or lyrics. OK that's SM poster's privilege at work - to hold forth on anything under the sun.

Reading too much into the song gives too much credit to the listener. Don't we all know the great cultural critic Ronald Reagan thought Springsteen's Born in the USA is a "patriotic song" - the Reagan kind of patriotism? [Who knows maybe even Vinod thinks so?] Till an embarrassed but intelligent aide nudged the old man to tell him what it was all really about.

So, this is what a personal post by vinod would look like. You should skip the serious part and do pure personal posts, now that you have your feet wet ;)

In a discussion of this sort, a good idea of whether the assertions being made hold true or not can be made by applying it to the other side concurrently. Thus is Western Music popular in say Asia? If so, are people who listen to Hindustani or Carnatic able to enjoy western rhythms or its purely those who do not know these music forms who enjoy western music? Do people in the west who listen to western classical listen to mainstream western music? Are different Asian music popular in different parts pf Asia itself? Thus while middle eastern music is fairly popular in India and vice versa, is east Asian music popular?

the last thing they want is sophisticated cynicism.

Bollywood music and even popular music responds to many needs, and while one of them is escapism, the whole genre packs in various kinds of emotive nuances and diverse audience niches. If you listened to Pearl Jam and concluded that all American pop is cynical soul-searching -- you would be WAY off the mark. The market contains exuberant/annoying Christian pop, middle brow 'adult alternative,' dance pop, country, a certain commercially robust strain of rap, hiphop, and R&B -- all of which sells well, and is not related at all to the 'tragic postmodern human condition' or whatever meaningless catchall phrase you've chosen to characterize 'sophisticated western music.' By the way, the word postmodern actually means something and one can't use it gratuitously to sound profound.

it really is coming from a deep, pure place in the heart that's uncorrupted by the acknowledged Tragedy of the modern world.

with all that sappy naivete

Indian film music = sappy naivete? is massively simplistic and fallacious.

Bollywood film music, should you choose to actually understand it, contains (among various other well-defined genres) irony, humor, and cynicism (apparently the hallmarks of 'sophisticated' lyrics). Corruption, society's obsession with mores despite its ultimate indifference, money, materialism, the anomie of big cities, the standard bitterness toward a fair-weather lover, over-the-top devotionals, and all shades of romantic love feature etc etc in Indian songs. Some Indian film music is well-crafted (Gulzar, the lyricist, is an example of someone who is capable of real humor and sarcasm as well as really emotionally intense evocative songs on the other), and much is not -- I don't see how this is different from mainstream American music. Yes, Indian music may not be influential in certain parts of the world, perhaps because of its sound (as Cohen and Jyotsana point out) or because of the language barrier. But it's definitely not because it is uncorrupted by the postmodern predicament of the human condition or whatever or because it includes only sappy naivete. Desi music has worked when it has been sampled, and also breakout songs like Chunari-Chunari have become popular with younger people because of the success of individual movies Monsoon Wedding. Just because pop-infused Desi music like that shows signs of being popular/better-known and potentially successful in non-Indian markets does not prove that Indian music at home is just candyfloss.

Alot of people who like Indian instrumental music find female filmi vocals to be too annoying. Like Kate Bush and Fran Drescher has a baby and sent it to Harvey Fierstein for voice lessons.

Don't we all know the great cultural critic Ronald Reagan thought Springsteen's Born in the USA is a "patriotic song" - the Reagan kind of patriotism? [Who knows maybe even Vinod thinks so?] Till an embarrassed but intelligent aide nudged the old man to tell him what it was all really about.

And the senile buffoon brushed aside the concerns of the aide and continued to peddle his Born in the USA - Patriotism song nonsense anyway. Springfield then dedicated 'Johny 99' to Reagan.

11 · louiecypher said

Alot of people who like Indian instrumental music find female filmi vocals to be too annoying.

Sure. That is probably true. That just means the music and vocals are poor. But agreeing with that observation doesn't entail that the whole music industry in India generates only low-brow, sappy "naive" music. If I looked at the usual list of summer movies out in the USA and came up with the observation that all Hollywood produces is action movies with tons of CGI or barely palatable romantic comedy or a moralistic tale of a cute animal overcoming adversity, I would be wrong.

13 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said

Springfield then dedicated 'Johny 99' to Reagan.

Yeah, rick springfield was subversive

While there is no contemporary popular style that uses the scalar melodic microtones of the Ancient Greek enharmonic scale, both the Islamicate and Indian (Hindustani and Karnaktic) repertoires use intervals that differ audibly from the Western tempered scale by microtonal intervals, thus the Islamicate scales use both intervals very close to the western semi- and whole tones, but also intervals close to three-quarters of a tone and somewhat wider than a whole tone (with a ratio of around 8:7).

Most exhausting sentence.

I'm not sure it isn't popular. Do you mean popular as in the Top 20 kind of popular? If so, what commercial radio station is going to play a Bollywood song that is on average about 8 minutes long?
but hey, I'm hearing desi music more and more in commericials and films. It's evocative stuff. No irony necessary.

Should we bother about a post containing all these gems. Well let's see of we can. Tyler Cowan discussed sound, not the lyrics, and Vinod from there jumped in without any expertise in either sound or lyrics. OK that's SM poster's privilege at work - to hold forth on anything under the sun.

Dude it's his OPINION and his thoughts...he's just throwing it out there for discussion...he never said it was the final word on the subject...CHILL...and it is their privilege to hold forth on anything...if you don't like it don't read (or better yet) comment on the blog.

13 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said

And the senile buffoon brushed aside the concerns of the aide and continued to peddle...

There's so much of music to mine in India with the 100s of movies and the many songs in each one of them. As I enjoyed Gulzar, Yogesh, Shailendra, and Sahir Ludhianvi, I would tell my friends in the Bombay and Delhi about the Kannadasan, Kalyanasundaram, Vaalee, and Vairamuthu, that I greatly enjoy in Tamizh. Till my Oriya friend introduced me to Akshay Mohanty and Bhupen Hazarika! We write about the times we live in. And we have travelled a long way from Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado to Rodgers and Hammerstein, while taking in some Woody and Arlo Guthrie, Pete Seger, all the way to Springsteen, Dave Mathews, Ben Harper, and Jack Johnson. There's a tonnes of music around and we can enjoy it all.

You see he had a short memory way back then!

little known fact: reagan was a postmodernist who knew the author is dead, aspects in the text itself undermine its own authority or assumptions and that internal contradictions erase boundaries or categories which the work relied on or asserted. A deeper substance of text opposes the text's more superficial form. Texts have multiple meanings and the violence between the different meanings of text may be elucidated by close textual analysis.

13 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said

Don't we all know the great cultural critic Ronald Reagan thought Springsteen's Born in the USA is a "patriotic song" - the Reagan kind of patriotism? [Who knows maybe even Vinod thinks so?] Till an embarrassed but intelligent aide nudged the old man to tell him what it was all really about.

And the senile buffoon brushed aside the concerns of the aide and continued to peddle his Born in the USA - Patriotism song nonsense anyway. Springfield then dedicated 'Johny 99' to Reagan.

We are supposed to care about this? Why?

Alot of people who like Indian instrumental music find female filmi vocals to be too annoying. Like Kate Bush and Fran Drescher has a baby and sent it to Harvey Fierstein for voice lessons.

I second that. Most indian female vocalists are extremely irritating high pitched monotonous copycat drones, all apparently imitating some idolized desi songstress who really does not deserve such flattery. There is far greater variety among male desi singers. From Bhimsen Joshi to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan there are some truly world class male vocalists from the subcontinent.

Indian pop music is showing up in America; it just isn't getting credited. ^__^

Also here: at 2:58.

And here.

(Though it spoils the surprise, they're Black Eyed Peas, Stick It, and Inside Man, respectively.)

even though we don’t see desi tunes in the West very much, they are all over the rest Asia (outside China/Japan/Korea), the Middle East, Africa, and even some former eastern block countries.

Another typically desi wild exaggeration. Reminds me of the foolishly puffed up posters here and in other desi forums who boast how the chinese are all crazy about bollywood and indian music.....just because some old cab driver in Beijing sang some verses from "Awara Hoon" to them :)

21 · Mac said

Alot of people who like Indian instrumental music find female filmi vocals to be too annoying. Like Kate Bush and Fran Drescher has a baby and sent it to Harvey Fierstein for voice lessons.

I second that. Most indian female vocalists are extremely irritating high pitched monotonous copycat drones, all apparently imitating some idolized desi songstress who really does not deserve such flattery. There is far greater variety among male desi singers. From Bhimsen Joshi to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan there are some truly world class male vocalists from the subcontinent.

OK. So we will ignore MSS, MLV, Parveen Sultana, Kishori Amonkar, Sudha Raghunathan, Begum Akhtar, Suman Kalyanpur, Asha, Bombay Jaishree, and so on... And while we are at it we shall also cast our nets wider still and forget Abida Parveen and Runa Laila. The idolised desi songstress gets on my nerves and is simply a singing puppet on a string, not a musician or a musical performer. She cannot sing from memory and is monotonous. Let's not even talk about her.

wow, the commenters on this weblog are such insightful geniuses! must be why they continue to read these morons who have posting privileges.

gwen stefani's quite popular in the west

'Foreign' music is adopted not because of meaning, but because of the way it resonates with the body (rhythm, beat) and how it connects to emotions (melody).

See how easy it is to resonate to western pop music. Now imagine the same happening with Hindustani/Karnatik/Melody-Bollywood (though pop-Bollywood may have similar effects). Resonating to the former set probably needs more sophisticated body movements, as you see in Hindi movie choreography (and also the spontaneous gestures used by classical music listeners). It is difficult to scale up to that body movement style from body-movements organized around Queen-type beats.

In the reverse direction, bodies used to resonating to more fine-tuned rhythms may be put off by repetitious beats. Note that music is remembered from the womb.

Here is some interesting research on the link between body movement and music.

The idolised desi songstress gets on my nerves and is simply a singing puppet on a string, not a musician or a musical performer. She cannot sing from memory and is monotonous. Let's not even talk about her.

As a blogger put it once, she is a "chipmunk on helium". I like her though, especially some of the old tunes.

And here.

Or here (Ghost World + Gumnaam). Or here (Anderson + Ray)

Mac
---
Most indian female vocalists are extremely irritating high pitched monotonous copycat drones, all apparently imitating some idolized desi songstress who really does not deserve such flattery.
---

hear, hear!

I found this factoid interesting (the influence of Irish and Scottish music on south indian classical music in the 18th century).. Who would have guessed?

---
Vismaya - An Indo Celtic Musical Journey is a contemporary compilation of the notusvara sahityas of Muthusvami Dikshitar recorded with Indian voices and western instrumentation. Dikshitar (1775-1835), is one of India's foremost composers, in whose hands European tunes that came to India with the British East India company, transformed into catchy songs in sanskrit, known as nottusvara sahityas easily accessible to children.
---

http://www.kanniks.com/vismaya_page.htm

Here's a link that talks about Hindi films and songs in the 1950's and how they were received in Greece. Seems that many Greek tunes also found their way into Hindi songs.

http://www.sangeetmahal.com/journal_hindi_films_greece.asp

____

I've been away from Sepia Mutiny for almost a year.Good to be back.

My two cents - i have always felt that "Western" music is more instrument dominated (Western classical music - the stars have been Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et al) as well as rock today (with assorted techno stuff, guitar, drums and bass effects heightening the decibels); while in Indian music, vocals have always dominated the instruments (Tansen, Baiju Bawra to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan et al).

Desi tunes are popular in the U.K.

that's seriously racist to go on about genetics in such a disparaging and obsessive way. it's the same as that japanese academic who said that developing countries are poor because its inhabitants are predisposed genetically to being less intelligent. i don't know why the facilitators haven't closed this thread. i'm not visiting this site anymore as it's very disturbing for me to not know the identity of the peolple who are writing in. they could be anyone and have unfortunate motives.

Mmm, yeah, VERY broad brushstrokes... and while I'd say there's a kernel of something interesting there, I think your "Western music" example (and what you're referring to is really just a certain subsegment of "American" music) is way too narrow in scope. I'm not sure I buy that Bollywood music is more inherently "optimistic" or "less cynical." In other words, I think there's *plenty* of "sappy naivete" in American popular music.

As for the original question as to why African music is more "influential": I'd want to grill the questioner on what exactly he means by that and why he is of that opinion. I'm a huge fan of African music but I don't know that I see it as huge in the West or America; it has fans to be sure, but not necessarily many more than Indian music (and what about the huge "influence" of Indian music in the late 60s and into the 70s? Ravi Shankar is as big a "rockstar" as Mick Jagger among a certain demographic). I also agree with those who've commented that there's a huge difference between the classical and popular Asian repertoire, so any analysis needs to take that into account.

Also, the original answer's references to "Asian microtonal complexity" and "African-derived rhythms" seem a bit oversimplified too: I would say that the singing of Oumou Sangare or Baaba Maal would not necessarily be considered "perfect for the radio or for the car." A lot of generalization all around here. Again, I'm having trouble with the validity of the original question itself. Good topic though.

22 · Blue said

Indian pop music is showing up in America; it just isn't getting credited. ^__^

Also here: at 2:58.

And here.

(Though it spoils the surprise, they're Black Eyed Peas, Stick It, and Inside Man, respectively.)

Also this. Lord of War (Bombay Theme...sorry to give it away).

Indian culture is also widely perceived to be less cool than african culture.

Wait, can we clarify what's meant by Indian music? The examples have mostly included Indian classical (sidenote: American classical is also not popular) and Bollywood (and I don't know of ANY soundtracks except The Bodyguard that have ever made top 10 in the last 20 years. Then again I'm young, so who knows).

It just seems limited, and not really accurate, to say desi music hasn't taken off in the West; it depends on what you're talking about and the format in which it appears. Bollywood and bhangra are all over hip hop, and desi music (and mixed music) is super popular in the UK. There's tons of Arab and Indian-inspired fusion hip hop in France. We could talk musical theory a little, but I don't think it has quite so much to do with listenership as is implied. African music also uses highly complex musical systems that don't appear in classical Western music, and yet it's the backbone for almost all contemporary popular music in the U.S., including country and folk.

How are we measuring influence? Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is widely known/heard in the "world music" crowd and probably places somewhere alongside Youssou N'dour for popularity. The wide incorporation of African rhythmic structures in contemporary American? The development of innovative genres informed by non-Western classical structures (e.g., jazz, blues, later rock)?

Camille, thanks for your posting. I am an ethnomusicologist, and I agree with you completely. Popular music is driven very differently in South Asia, and the US; yet, there is a huge desi influence in Western popular music. Vinod, while the impact may not be as visible in the US as musics with other foreign origins, this most likely has to do with population prevalence and time.

Simple, Just pick up our great music, change the lyrics to western lyrics (doesn't mean something like "I am your Apple, Ur my Banana, Let's have some Tana-nana!! variety) that has good standard and meaning of the lyrics such that they can relate to their culture and I am sure it's going to sell like hot cakes.

35 · maya said

that's seriously racist to go on about genetics in such a disparaging and obsessive way. it's the same as that japanese academic who said that developing countries are poor because its inhabitants are predisposed genetically to being less intelligent. i don't know why the facilitators haven't closed this thread. i'm not visiting this site anymore as it's very disturbing for me to not know the identity of the peolple who are writing in. they could be anyone and have unfortunate motives.

Maya, whichever world you are living in, it is not the SM world inhabited by the likes of Razib and Vinod, unicorn cataloguers extraordinaire!

It seems like we're mostly talking about melodies and vocals here, right? Because bhangra rhythms are obviously taken up here and there in hip-hop tracks, and tablas have been used all over the place since the '60s. But even Madonna did her Ray of Light thang. Asian Underground developed because the drum n' bass heads felt a resonance with that and complicated Indian rhythms, right? Musical fusion comes in bits and pieces, I'm sure we'll get more Indian melodic influence sooner or later, esp. as Americans become more and more familiar with Bollywood (see: So You Think You Can Dance, etc). Snoop Dogg just did a track for a Bollywood movie, so the more that artists on both sides are meeting and creating with each other, it'll become more common.

I think the American-African connection is more obvious -- rock music developed from black American styles, Africans heard that and created their own brand of pop, Paul Simon grabbed some of those musicians and made Graceland, etc etc. Isn't it all just endlessly feeding each other? I've been hearing the Ethiopiques complilation everywhere this summer, some recently unearthed rock/jazz tracks from Addis Ababa in the '70s -- some of it sounds like a weird African James Brown, it's awesome. So it's all just musical conversations through different eras, some take root and some don't.

The comments about Western/Eastern scales probably have a lot to do with it, though. But that's why fusion music is a way of introducing those things to the masses. I'm a gori who first heard Indian music as a teen through the pop artist Najma and loved it. I don't know why. I was into all kinds of world music for years (thank you dad, for introducing me to NPR's weekly Afro-Pop show), but always preferred South Asian styles above all. I can't get into Chinese pop music in the same way, it doesn't sound as friendly to my ears. And my brother the former hard core punk rocker has recently developed a passion for bluegrass and American folk music. I think there's probably just no accounting for personal taste. ;)

I completely agree with Camille, also you have to define what is popular, desi influences can be traced right back to the Beatles, corner shop’s remixed brimful of asha reach number one in the uk charts in 1998, Jay Z sampled PMC during his festival shows this summer. jagjit Singh and adnan sami toured the uk with huge arena sold out shows.

End of the day it’s all money, if the record company, MTV, radio gets behind it then it will be all over the place. Does that mean it is popular??

Also I hate describing it as “world music”. Wonder what it is like in a record store in india. Bollywood film’s are sectioned off as bollywood, not world cinema, does that mean it popular?

ps nout wrong with american folk, remember "this land is your land, this land is my land"

I love Indian music....carnatic, hindustani all of it! And bollywood music is so catchy! A R Rahman, KK, Kailash Kher, Atif Aslam, you rock guys!

41 · EMC3 said

"I am your Apple, Ur my Banana, Let's have some Tana-nana!!

those lyrics are genius. where can i find the track? :)

Thanks to rudie_c (long time no see! hi!!) and Ravi. I also forgot to mention Jeff Buckley (not mainstream "popular", but kind of when we think of contemporary musical influence in pop and among the hipster crowd), who uses the harmonium and desi scales in a Western paradigm. Along the same lines as the Beatles are Led Zeppelin, who also get into the "Eastern scales."

I think your point is really interesting, Vinod, I'm just trying to separate the huge categories we've constructed here. :)

39 · Camille said

(and I don't know of ANY soundtracks except The Bodyguard that have ever made top 10 in the last 20 years. Then again I'm young, so who knows).

The soundtrack for Disney's High School Musical was, I believe, the best-selling record in 2007. There is definitely--and there will remain to be--a gigantic segment of the American listening public that want irony-free music. Look at country!

It seems to me like this discussion got off on a bit of apples-to-oranges comparison-- theinternational appeal of western pop music, specifically hipster-age rock, vs. that of indian classical. There's also another concern-- why aren't desi musics as popular in the 'world music' set as african? It can't be the presence of a language barrier..so.....?

coming from a promoter's standpoint--and you've got to figure this matters, the summertime festival circuit is a very, very big part of the international and 'world music' circuit-- something like Ladysmith Black Mambazo or a Senegalese drumming group is more fun to watch than ravi-ji on a dais. The energy appeals to a broader base.

Bhangra's got a slight foothold in the states, sure, though it definitely feels like it had it's time to shine here and the artists, overall, aren't that concerned w/ the U.S. market when the India, UK, and Canadian markets are so big. Also, keep in mind that the production values of bhangra largely keep it out of the running of the cutting-edge, blogosphere world of music consumers. Sure, Baile funk got a lot of people's attention, cumbia's getting them interested now, reggaeton continues to grow in popularity-- but the majority of bhangra remains too cheesy to get people into it beyond those who already 'get' it. Reggaeton sounds like another nation's hip hop; 80% of bhangra sounds like punjabi wedding music. Such is life.

I can't imagine that bollywood will get roots in the states beyond good old American ethnocentricism (the colors! the big dance numbers! the clothes! the great wedding sequences!). Besides that, the recent trend of english-sung choruses (all hot girls, put your hands up and say, om shanti om) are really, really off-putting.

and that's without touching on the hot mess of "singh is king."

" Besides that, the recent trend of english-sung choruses (all hot girls, put your hands up and say, om shanti om) are really, really off-putting"
Why is it off-putting?? Give me one good reason? Om Shanti Om songs are sooo good! Is it only because it is in english? The ABD (I am tempted to put C in here) commenters need to know that people in INdia have no dislike of english...we love english language and think of it as our own and no different. After all we have been speaking it longer than you have!

Great observation Vinod !!!
I always tell my friends that since the west has so much wealth and people are not really scared about their future, they manufacture "sadness" and create these dark tunes. On the other hand India has many people who are poor and worried about the future their songs are mainly about happy times and expression of joy.

A song about parental love is likely to be about the lack of it and that’s the reason young Jeremy started a fight in school.

jagjit Singh and adnan sami toured the uk with huge arena sold out shows.

Yes, sold out to desis.

Also, keep in mind that the production values of bhangra largely keep it out of the running of the cutting-edge, blogosphere world of music consumers.

Listen to the latest album by SWAMI...it's amazing...if promoted right I think it would blow up with a lot of non-desis.

but the majority of bhangra remains too cheesy to get people into it beyond those who already 'get' it. Reggaeton sounds like another nation's hip hop; 80% of bhangra sounds like punjabi wedding music.

I disagree, there is a LOT of new "bhangra" music being churned out in the U.K every month, not all of it is good by any means but quite a lot is, quite a lot is not cheesy, and quite a lot does not sound like wedding music. However there are some major barriers to it achieving widespread acceptance which are more socio-cultural-linguistic and I don't think it will ever find a much wider audience than it has now. There's a difference between people who like it (or think of it) as just fluff to dance to while drunk, and others who can appreciate the background, wordings, history, as well as the innovative efforts of the people who produce it and put it out there.

The ABD (I am tempted to put C in here) commenters need to know that people in INdia have no dislike of english...we love english language and think of it as our own and no different.

Yes Georgia we know.

Preston post #1 Brilliant! thank you.

Vinod:

By contrast, a LOT (though clearly not all) of today’s Western music is about, well, the Tragedy of the post-modern world. You were fooled by love until your boyfriend / girlfriend went psycho and slept with someone else in the band. A song about parental love is likely to be about the lack of it and that’s the reason young Jeremy started a fight in school. Everything’s screwed up and we’re not gonna take it. He’s only sorry he got caught. Ideals are tools of the Man and the opiate of the people. The real world is cynical, only things you can physically smack are real and everything else is equally good or equally bad. And so on and so on…

To answer your question, I'd say that popular Indian music like Bollywood tunes can indeed cross over to the West, if you are talking about chart success. Indeed I think that J-pop and Chinese pop is gaining a following in the West. But I think the main obstacle is this: language. When was the last time that a non-English language song topped the American Billboards? Or the UK top 40? There is a lot of pop music being made in Europe that follows 'Western' sensibilities but is not in English. This artists are struggling to gain a foothold in English-speaking countries. They don't have this problem in European countries where English is not the native language. I think Rammstein might be one of the most popular ones, but others are e.g. Manu Chao, Wir Sind Helden, Kent, Kaizers Orchestra etc.

The Twin Cities in Minnesota: Minneapolis-St.Paul have fabulous Indian Music Concerts on a regular basis. They are organized by IMSOM (Ind Music Soc of MN). I still get their emails 2 years after leaving MN and die of envy here in New England.

On another, more pragmatic note why doesn't Netflix have mor Indian movies and what can we do to persuade them?

19 · Manju said

little known fact: reagan was a postmodernist who knew the author is dead, aspects in the text itself undermine its own authority or assumptions and that internal contradictions erase boundaries or categories which the work relied on or asserted. A deeper substance of text opposes the text's more superficial form. Texts have multiple meanings and the violence between the different meanings of text may be elucidated by close textual analysis.

Manju, Reagan was so path-breaking that even Obama on the other side of the political spectrum wishes to emulate him. Given your high regard of Reagan and his legacy, I hope you'll do the right thing this November by voting democrat.

I think it might be just me, but I always here desi/middle eastern influences when I'm listening to music on the radio. Below is some stuff besides the songs that people have already mentioned. (I used to be a DJ)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm_10eS7YDM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTjPmgN98H8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b_RHQYDx8k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq4EyIFXs-E
(samples choli ke peeche)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tITG08wtIvc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuNIKjKuptQ

festival circuit is a very, very big part of the international and 'world music' circuit-- something like Ladysmith Black Mambazo or a Senegalese drumming group is more fun to watch than ravi-ji on a dais. The energy appeals to a broader base.

sort of true ... but i would interpret that not as sexy body, but in the demeanor and how the singer projects his/her intensity. for example nusrat fateh ali khan had general health problems ... but when he sang he sang with his whole person and you could feel that energy. that was (for want of a better word) sexy. on a tangent - perhaps this is how one separates pop from the bluebloods. I happened to catch a bit of this concert where pavarotti sang with u2. i thought bono had pipes, but comparing him to pavarotti was like looking at a mouse compared to the lion. stripped of the glamor, the shades, the yeahyeahyeahs, bono is a shaved cat. and then pavarotti sang ave maria and i near about bawled. it's the saame i suppose with desi music dissemination. desi music is represented in the public with flaccid pap - and that's about as hot and attractive as a coelacanth.

to continue my point, i generally avoid desi classical concerts because the artist looks bored or depressed or generally 'dookhee', like a spiritless nag. wtf yaar. cheer up.

"to continue my point, i generally avoid desi classical concerts because the artist looks bored or depressed or generally 'dookhee', like a spiritless nag. wtf yaar. cheer up. "

They don't look dookhi....They maintain a demeanor that is expected out of their art. What do you want them to do? Wear makeup, colorful clothes, and dance around?

to continue my point, i generally avoid desi classical concerts because the artist looks bored or depressed or generally 'dookhee', like a spiritless nag. wtf yaar. cheer up.

Why can't they dry hump a sitar Hendrix style and spit paan on the audience? That's what the kids want

Vinod, Preston, Jyotsana, and esp. Ravi the Lurker. All I can say is "besh besh" on bringing up this topic, and the ensuing commentary.

Meena, interesting comments, I wish I had time to respond. Agree that carnatic music is much more similar to jazz. Surprised on your comments re: dynamism in Carnatic Music.. All I can tell you is to pick up U. Srinivas' CD of Bindu Malini (Thygaraja's composition "entha muddo, entha sogaso"). I leaves me seriously breathless.

I'm looking forward to reading Chachaji's commentary.

53 · Meena said

A lot of Carnatic music is specfically addressed to God, apparently, while Western classical music throughout the centuries has evolved from Gregorian Chants through Matthaus Passion to a very wide range of subjects, most of which centre around humans and human error. Then of course, there is the fact that a lot of Carnatic music is basicall improvisation.

Borrowing from SN Balagangadhara, Western Classical music and Indian Classical Music are not only different, they differ in different ways. So comparing the two, rather than ICM with western mainstream music, is still nectarines and guavas. The kirtanai format Carnatic concert is a recent format, and the recent big three - Dikshitar, Tyagaraja, and Syama are but a few of the composers. Although there is no requirement to sing only devotional kritis, Carnatic concerts asa rule feature only these. There is no parallel to the orchestrated pieces and symphonies of WCM. We do have the equivalent of the opera though, and as far as musicals go, I would much rather watch Shree 420 than the any number of tiresome annoying musicals that seem to roll off the assembly lines of Broadway. If we want to see ICM applied to other areas, we must turn to Indian film music, which is substantially founded on ICM. >75 years of fusing ICM and WCM in Indian film music has culminated in the work of Ilayaraja, who by himself represents an acme of modern popular music, and with works such as the Tiruvasakam in Symphoney has broken new ground on fusing an ancient Indian poem Manickavasagar's Tiruvasakam) into the frame of a oratorio. Stirring stuff.

I read your posting. Although Desi tunes are not more popular in west,but some our Indian people will make it popular over there.

They don't look dookhi....They maintain a demeanor that is expected out of their art. What do you want them to do? Wear makeup, colorful clothes, and dance around?

whoa! dont be putting verds in my mouth. didnt i just give an example of nusrat fateh ali khan and of pavarotti. hardly glamor cats, either of them - but if you've seen one of the better ustad's qawwali recitals you'd have seen a 300 lb man levitate off the ground. best that mindfreak. and here's the deal - these guys are all entertainers. i go to these concerts to be entertained not to see how smart they are. So i need to feel the music, not measure the complexity of their piece while looking at their dour saggy profiles.

I happened to catch a bit of this concert where pavarotti sang with u2. i thought bono had pipes, but comparing him to pavarotti was like looking at a mouse compared to the lion. stripped of the glamor, the shades, the yeahyeahyeahs, bono is a shaved cat.

Bono's claim to fame has never been his singing per se (although he is quite good) but more so his lyrics and the passion he brings to his songs. He puts forth his thoughts, ideas, observations, faith, and philosophy into his music. He's not all glamour, shades, yeahyeahyeahs, etc. He's a poet and he has touched millions of people with his creations.

Pavarotti may have been an enormously gifted SINGER...but what did he create by himself? What could he claim other than brilliant interpretations or performances of others' work? Not trying to diss him but I don't think the comparison to Bono is completely valid. Yes he was a better singer.

53 · Meena said

Then of course, there is the fact that a lot of Carnatic music is basicall improvisation. I guess this ties Carnatic to jazz in a way. In Western classical music there is very little freedom to deviate from all the composers little notes! Another point is that Western classical music basically evolved throughout Europe.

You must be thinking of very recent 20th c. Western classical music when you speak of a lack of improvisation. Think of the Cadenza in the Concerto form, an entire section of a formal piece set aside for improvisation! Most of the great composers who also performed (Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Paganini) were expected to improvise and were known as great improvisers. Even very rigid performers like Glenn Gould were excellent improvisers.

Carnatic music is a little like jazz in this respect, however, yet it lacks the complexity of harmony and the range of movement.

Barring a few comments, the discussion on this thread for whatever reason has been quite ordinary at best. Not to take anything away from the wonderful posts by the bloggers, IMHO SMs forte was always the quality of discussions and in recent times a lot of the people who used to make some great comments are no longer active :-(

People are right to point out that different forms of music are being compared here. With respect to pop music, I think in India and the West the differences are matters of texture and timber but otherwise structurally are very minimal, even regarding lyrics content which covers a wide spectrum on both sides. There seems to me plenty of western pop music that is not post-modern but instead very innocent or simple.

Regarding classical music from the West and Carnatic music the differences are great. Both are rich traditions, but Western Classical music seems the more dynamic and varied and evolved of the two. I wish everybody listened to more of both! Off the top of my head:

Teleology. I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned. Western Classical music is built on harmonic, contrapuntal or melodic progressions, that depart and evolve more throughout a piece. You can begin one place, travel to another and return or go elsewhere as the center moves, whereas in most Indian classical music there is an ever-present steady center. Western Music toys with burying or hiding and then changing that center, or even toys with keep it in marvels of instrumentation like Ravel's Bolero.

Harmony. Notes are overlaid upon each other in Indian classical music, but it is not harmony. The complex harmonic structure of Western Classical Music is its own unique invention.

Instrumentation. I am partial to Carnatic instrumentation and timber some days and western on others. But the Western instrumentation, such as seen in the symphony, allows for a conversation and harmony between instruments that of such varying types that you don't find elsewhere. Imagine, a piccolo, flutes, oboes, English horn, clarinets, bass clarinet, bassoons, contrabassoon (double bassoon), horns, trumpets, trombones, bass trombone, tubas, timpani, snare drum, tenor drum, bass drum, cymbals, triangle, wood block, tambourine, marimba, vibraphone, xylophone, glockenspiel, gong (tam-tam), tubular bells, violins, violas, violoncellos (cellos), double basses, all orchestrated together!

Scale or melody. Indian classical music has more color and complexity here. In small discrete units anyway. It seems Western Classical abandoned the Greek modes and restricted itself to the diatonic scale because there was a great deal of freedom with that restriction, such as advanced harmony.

I think Indian Classical is becoming better known in the west, but even Western Classical music has faded in the West. I could be wrong but I think Western Classical music is a little easier to learn which might help its survival in places like China.

First of all, you do not see that much world music in the US anyway. How much African music has really seeped into American music? Paul Simon, Peter Gabriel, Sting all did their African collaborations. But that was just a short period of time. We have seen that Mudiya whatever it is called(the one with the Knightrider theme sampled in), then some Lata Mangeshkar song get sampled. Even the cheesy songs that have become buffalaxed on youtube such as Benny lava and the Indian Thriller song from Donga have caught on not just in terms of cheesy hilarity but some of the responses indicate that people find the tunes guilty pleasures. A boring bad song can't be a guilty pleasure, just something to sneer at(which I find a lot of Indian movie songs in recent years to be).

They used Dum Maro Dum in one of the GTA3 ads. Ghost World had one of those 60s Hindi Shammi kapoor style rocknroll songs that imitated the west, but had its own special Bollywood stamp.

I personally find a lot of recent Indian movie music to be unlistenable. They seem to lack the melody of the older songs while their "english" vocals sound like they were sung by a deaf person. Indian classical music puts me to sleep unless there is a heavy percussion element to it.

And yes, a lot of people in the West find Indian female vocals to be too high pitched. Also, I noticed a lack of enough variety in the female singers.

As far as Eastern Asian music, other than Japanese garage or kitsch rock, you never hear any Chinese or similar music in the western music scene.
The only thing I find worse than recent Bollywood music are those Taiwanese pop songs.

"...First of all, you do not see that much world music in the US anyway. How much African music has really seeped into American music? Paul Simon, Peter Gabriel, Sting all did their African collaborations..."

What is "African music" , pray?
its all mixed up . From spirituals to Gospel to three chord rock and roll to rock to urban west africa to slide guitar to township jive to roots reggae back to America. Peter Gabriel and Sting are just the over-produced sheen after two centuries of mashing.

What is "African music" , pray?

Vampire Weekend...you can't get more authentic than them

What kind of music? All the traditional, classical forms are worlds apart from bubble gum Hindi filmi songs, from funky bhangra from the diaspora, from sufiana folk music. India's music is so vast and varied it resists categorising, unless you're Mike Myers with a sitar in the Love Guru. Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and Punjabi MC and bhangra - hip hop fusions are popular in the West. And there is a definite appreciation for classical Indian music in the West too ever since the Beatles landed in Rishikesh. Lennon and McCartney's music was definitely influenced at a deep level by the modes of classical Indian music, and you can hear that in some of their later work. Those are just a few examples. But each one is so different. Let's not forget Talvin Singh style electronica, Nitin Sawhney, all those musicians from the diaspora.

Neale, I make a distinction between african music and african american music. And I mentioned Gabriel and Simon only because we are dealing with mainstream music mostly when talking about influences being popular.

Another pet peeve of mine in Indian movie music is the overreliance on a few singers for most of their music. For so many years, it was pretty much Lata Mangeshkar or Asha Bosle for most tunes. NOw you got more singers. But there is too much freakin high pitch singing by the females. Also the number of music producers is not that much for such a huge population. Sure there are the cream of the crop in India and everyone wants to hire them. But you can get some really offbeat stuff if there is more variety. Though I do see a trend towards that in recent years. THey seem to have more bands come out with music. Unfortunately, I can't relate to any of it.

Ilayaraja when asked o compare ICM and WCM replied that the former is lonely, the latter never lets you feel like that. The Sri Lankan maestro Khemadasa too said more or less the same. Harmony in WCM although very complex isn't pure time art - it is considerably space art, as it is designed on a sheet of paper by layering many strands of notes. Counterpoint, inverse counterpoint, and such structures can be very fascinating, as long as someone tells you what it is about. Modern music in the West has gone way beyond that. And as Chuck Berry puts it, has truly Roll[ed] Over Beethoven. Rock and Roll is a truly wondrous musical form, richly complex beased on just guitars, drums, vocals, and the occasional keyboards. While I am sure there are many obscure WCM composers who have ccreated truly philosophically rich works, the large mass of WCM from the times of Bach till the advent of Impressionists in the late 19th century, deals with very simple themes, quite simplistically.

I like instrumental versions of Western classical music and vocals of Carnatic (though Violin is an exception). Though vocals are amazing in Western classical, perhaps the complexity in instrumental music, as mentioned by Akut, makes me more partial to instrumental versions.

To appreciate energy in the performance of Carnatic music, I suggest Thayagaraja's Jagadananda Karaka by MS Subbalakshmi.

A pet peeve of mine is when commentators start with "Indian Film Music" and go on about Lata Mangeshkar. If someone knew enough about Indian Films to know Lata M, please note, Indian Film Music =! Bollywood Music. I like my Jikki and hate later day Bhanumati, thanks!
Language barrier doesn't exist only for English speakers, it exists for all non-Hindi speakers too. Especially, listening to literal translation of "Mother, a Crow has crowed on our porch today" puts one off from all the Bollywood music.

Though I don't discount the fact that liking for a different/new music can be developed later on in life I do have a heuristic theory that some of the music tastes independent of the kind is hardwired during your adolescent days. The genre of music that you have listened to a lot during your growing up years probably influences your ear-buds.

I’m going to go way way way out on a limb and toss out another personal, vastly underinformed, pet theory on this question. Instead of musical structure, language barriers, and the like I also wanna toss in some cultural context…

Btw here is some science of human obsession which I picked up recently - This is your Brain on music

First of all, it was a nicely rounded up blog with a lot many edges and sharp points; felt good reading it. I chanced upon this terrific blog (?) in a sort of big-time-crash. I had been so put off by the plethora of rubbish in the name of blogging that I'd lost all hope that a space like this could exist.

Now, back to the blog. Tyler gives his informed opinion on the "technical reasons"why desi music is not so popular in the west. I guess by "desi" you would mean the folk and classical traditions. Of course, Tyler's opinions are pretty comprehensive (even though only a few important points are given) and they pretty much seal up the matter regarding the technical aspect.

Vinod has freely expressed some interesting possibilities:

I can still readily feel a certain cultural optimism / fantasy in a lot of Indian music.

That is to say, the so-called love-songs are idealistic. Our conception of love differs from the western in that it is something perpetual, something meant to stay. (I personally have found this to be ridiculous, though I am a conservative Indian in almost every sense.) The western conception of love is, of course, a functional one, something which translates immediately and irrevocably into actions. It is not an ideal. It is always a yes or no proposition, with (to extend Vinod's idiom) "zero waiting time." And, of course, in this way of seeing things,

there's a lot of escapism.

Vinod also informs me (it is information, since I stopped listening to western rock/pop since about 1995) that a lot of today's western music is about the tragedy of the postmodern world. I think he is or used to be a rock fan; otherwise, he's seeing only the morally sunny side of things. I wouldn't dare to label the music of Shakira, Twain, Spears and the rest of the chicky-nonsense as bemoaning the postmodern dilemma. Now seriously! That's a seriously blown-up extrapolation. I was once a fellow-rider with all those U2, Underworld, Metallica, Prodigy, and above everything else, Leftfield fans. I worshipped acid house music, because I felt it was the successor to the Beatles, bottled like new, of course. But that promise...has remained underground all the time.

Seriously, I don't think the popular music (meaning, the music of the films) of Hindi and other languages are mainly tapping into the hit Billboard tunes. We have something like a desi crooner trying to ape a Spears crescendo, even the sighs, gasps and the in-taken breath, and then you have it followed by the male/boy/brat singing the duet. It's inescapable, though I make it a point never to listen to the mushrooming FM channels. I can't run away from it because it's blaring from every rooftop. The indolent youth of this wretched place is deluded, once more, with a fancy that will pass when they are married and have a kid. Then they will have other things to care about. But they can still phone in and request and dedicate and be damned.

I think the end-of-blog apologies were quite unwarranted, because we're not talking about Karnatik music or Hindustani, as these require, and demand, a proper setting (context) for its performance. Karnatik is more or less devotional, and Hindustani likewise is expositional, making incredible demands from the listener--who should be quite proficient at least in listening. It requires literate audiences, and of course, we need not stretch the matter further because nobody here in India really cares about classical western guitar or classical western music in general. And, the catchy tunes--Bhangra beats and so on--do get some exposure everywhere. Especially helps if there are car stereos, as Vinod rightly pointed out.

Vinod,

You may be correct about the difference in the meaning behind Indian songs vs. Western songs, but if you can only presume what they are about based on how they sound, then you can't really understand their meaning. One shouldn't judge music simply on its meaning. There is no Indian equivalent to American indie rock or Brazilian hip hop, and my point has more to do with evolution of the sound of music than its meaning. In mainstream India there are really only movie soundtracks, carnatic & hindustani music, and western cover bands. There are exceptions, but those are few.

*

74 · jyotsana said

While I am sure there are many obscure WCM composers who have ccreated truly philosophically rich works, the large mass of WCM from the times of Bach till the advent of Impressionists in the late 19th century, deals with very simple themes, quite simplistically.

Akut, really interesting comments. I agree with you on pretty much everthing, didn't know also that earlier pianists and conductors were expected to improvise. It's certainly a technique that has been pretty much stamped out of the current learning repetoire. Which is a pity sometimes. It was only when playing in a band that I learned to transcribe and transpose chords by ear. Although when I sang classical for three years I did learn some improvisation and acquired better pitch sensitivity by singing intervals.

The post before this one was Singh is Kinng, all about how American Hip-Hop is collaborating with desi music. Now this post saying the twain shall never meet.

I don't get it.

Only thing is that most popular desi female vocal artists voices are waaaaaaay to shrill for the non-initiated ear. That is the only general drawback. And some of the male classical singers sound like sick cows wailing and mooing with their aaahhhhhh .... uuuuuhhhhhs. You know, those classical ragas where the human voice is made to sound like an instrument. That is also an acquaired taste over time. But stuff like bhangra I can see becoming popular over here.

Don't know what it is but I see some Indian sounds in this party at Salvation-London of all places.

Vinod, interesting points, but a fair comparison would be how popular Indian stacks up against popular 'Western' music (at least that derived from blues and jazz). Most popular music on either side is well packaged trash, however, there are a lot more artists in the west pushing the envelope in many ways. 4x4 rock and roll / pop is surely more accessible to many more people, but most Indian popular music is just that. If you look at Bollywood, at one point there were three Macarena 'covers' on the TV/radio/the local paan shop. There are exceptions - AR Rahman, Vishal Bharadwaj and Shankar/Ehsaan/Loy. But of all these, none is a patch on the likes of Floyd. Popular Indian music lacks depth and there is not enough experimentation. Ennis or Amardeep wrote a post sometime ago about song writing being a highly personal experience in pop/rock/blues/other derivatives. This is absolutely correct. As with sport, I'm afraid a generation of Indians is only engaged passively with music, as the average listener, not actually experiencing it. The number of Indians who can play an instrument, Indian or Western, is not very high I'm afraid (much more of a concern than olympics medals). This reflects in the talent on display. I cannot comment on classical music though.

Thanks for the post, btw. Interesting stuff.

Does this also mean that Asians are more open minded and can appreciate music from vastly different cultures? :)

i dunno. i think the microscale thing might be a step in the right direction
i dont know much about theory
well lil wayne lollipop's chorus had something kinda desi about it
Asha Bhosle goes over well she kind of has a soft attack that doesnt sound so saturated
I think the Americans are fond of the "space" so to speak
while alot of Indian music is very indulgent how many notes can we fit into this space
I dunno just my two

furthermore I'll say this and shutup
y'all know it, mainstream America kinda like post-culture, streamline, steamline
but
Ravi Shankar Philip Glass 'Passages' is the sh#$

From my own experience, Bollywood artists are not open to the west. That is a fact!