I always think doing a Scottish accent is extremely hard. Very impressed you can pull that off, go with it. If you get it right, no one will understand you. ;)

I always think speaking a desi language at home will always help, my Ba used to bribe us, if we stop speaking in English until dinner then we get to have a sugar wari rotli.

You know she's telling the truth when she can't even pronounce "Apu" (Aah-pooh)correctly.

Mindy Kaling is on my top 3* list of girls that I would LOVE to have a beer with.

*this is a total arbitrary number, I don't know who the other two are.

I once tried out for a play in college that called for an Indian accent, and butchered it terribly (my version came out sounding, for some reason, Russian).

I think many ABDs, as teenagers, don't pay any attention to their parents' Indian accents -- because they want to identify as "American." They don't realize that being able to speak with a convincing Indian English accent might actually come in quite handy later in life.

I could actually do a much better job of the accent now, after being married to a DBD for five years.

I went to a mostly-white, Catholic (read: racially insensitive) high school. One of the teachers asked me to read aloud in an Indian accent. Rather than complain, I did my best (an awful that rivals Kaling's) version of Apu. When I finished and sat down to bury my head for the rest of class, the person sitting next to me turned and exclaimed "Wow, I thought you were born here. How'd you do the accent so well?"

I have to say that my Indian accent is pretty damn good. The consonents are always crispy and I'm the only one at the office who can understand the phone solicitors from India. In India you don't really need to know any desi language so well. Just speak English with the local accent and they get you.

Even I am surprised at how that vorks but I am telling you Madam it vorks like a charm - wonly!

This is the 2nd person I saw talking about anything India related on Letterman. Ashwarya being the first.

Cant be a whiner but did anyone else notice excessive gesticulation? Very desi that.

Cheers.

Just speak English with the local accent and they get you.

i've been perfecting my hindi-english accents by watching indian mtv lately ;)

re english - it only gets you so far. in urban areas, it's most def. more useable, but even then, only with a certain segment of the population. outside of large cities, the usefulness of english, albeit it with a desi accent, decreases drastically....

I can do one, well-- literally. As in, just one specific accent,i.e. my Dad's, according to certain haters (Hi, Mom!). I can't do hers at all.

In India you don't really need to know any desi language so well. Just speak English with the local accent and they get you.

I had an older "VIP" (read: bishop) family member on my Mom's side visit us once, who ostensibly spoke English but when he attempted to converse with me, he looked up helplessly and shot a somewhat irritated look at my Mom, because he couldn't understand what *I* was saying. My mom poked me surrpetitiously and murmured through clenched teeth:

"Stop. Speaking. With. That. Stoopid. Valley. Girl. Accent."

"What are you talking about??"

"He can't understand you!"

"What would you have me do, woman?"

"Talk like an Indian!"

"Are you kidding me? You mean, talk how I usually get punished for, b/c it shows 'disrespect' for my elders?? Oh, this is RICH."

"SHUTUP and DO IT"

All of this was muttered furiously in a matter of seconds, mind you. She was right, as soon as I commenced transposing "V"s and "W"s, and imitating my DBD cousins, the man immediately had this "Eureka"-like moment, nodded with approval and vigorously started asking me what type of Doctor I planned on becoming. [more on HERstory]

She was right, as soon as I commenced transposing "V"s and "W"s, and imitating my DBD cousins, the man immediately had this "Eureka"-like moment, nodded with approval and vigorously started asking me what type of Doctor I planned on becoming.

Vunderrfull. And I can vouch foir ANNA’s good accent ;) I really like thick Malayali accents, more so than any other south Indian accent – I had this great TA in college for a WWII history class and his recitations were always entertaining not only because of their content but because of their Malayalam-accent-tainted presentation (e.g. ‘knowLedge in the coLLege’). BTW Vikram Seth’s A Suitable Boy has a great passage to highlight the very pronounced South Indian accent.

5 · AR said

One of the teachers asked me to read aloud in an Indian accent.

Back in junior high we'd often be forced to read a chapter from the textbook out loud on days that we had subs. You know, we'd take turns reading one paragraph or section each. Being the class clown, I'd always do mine with my fake Indian accent, which would have everybody but the sub in stitches. The sub would then chide the class for being "mean" to the poor foreigner (me), which would only make people laugh even harder. Good times.

My fake Indian accent seems to have gotten worse with the passage of time. Or maybe I just remember it being better than it really was. Shrug.

You haterz!, Dont make phun of Indyann accent..Its sooo kule OK! :)

Speaking about Indian "accents" we used to live in San Jose from late 70's thru early 90s. My dad (that's Abhi's Grand dad) a retired gazetted Indian Government Officer was very proud of his "British" English. I took him to local San Jose Government Office for some routine official business, where he started conversing in his thick 'British' English. The entire conversation went straight over the head. The guy behind the counter looked at me - puzzeled and asked me what my dad was saying. Obviously my Dad felt hurt, looked at me and commented: "It seems like Americans are dumb. I thought they understand English here in America." I had to calm down my dad by buying him a triple scoop of his favorite ice cream. I am not kidding a bit. Honestly, although being a DBD myself, since I went to "Catholic" missionary school (St. Xaviers) in India, I picked up the American accent very fast. I have lots of DBD friends who did not go to such institutions back home, and they still have not been able to shake off the "deshi" accent.

Whoa, thats a good story, I didn't know that. It makes sense though because ice cream calms me down too. Also, my Indian accent probably sucks because Yo Dad doesn't have much of one (neither does mom).

wunly accent i have is 2003 hyundaai accent.

rudie_c: By the way Sugar Wari Rotli" is called "Puranpori" or "Vedhmi" in Gujarat.

Love Mindy, and love tbat she's not only a "tertiary" character on The Office, but she's also a writer, and sometimes a producer for the show....You Go Girl!

Interestingly, she seemed far more uncomfortable being in the guest seat (notice how she never sat back on the sofa), though she was born in the US and presumably was familiar with Dave (and the format) than Aishwarya (who did a terrible interview a few years back).

Hmmm....

Anyway, she ROCKS (who can forget her saying on camera...this s**t is bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S)!

And so does JKras (my middle age crush)! Sigh!

16 · Yo Dad said

rudie_c: By the way Sugar Wari Rotli" is called "Puranpori" or "Vedhmi" in Gujarat.

puranpori, is that not stuffed with Goor?? Sugar wari rotli or sugar wali rotli is what i known since i was a wee lad. whats Vedhmi??

She was right, as soon as I commenced transposing "V"s and "W"s, and imitating my DBD cousins, the man immediately had this "Eureka"-like moment

So Malayalis do that as well as North Indians? Interesting, being that Hindi and other North Indian languages are "indo-european" and Malayali is not, or is it? Thought it was "dravidian".

I would imagine that the more difference between desi languages, the more different the accents would be....???

Whenever I visit India I notice a weird transmission of accents from myself and locals. I begin speaking English with inverted grammar and sentence structure, "Sheila Aunty, wait for me only" and the locals especially the younger ones try to mimic an American accent right back at me. The guy at the local "barrista" after asking me what I wanted in heavily accented English switched to a pure southern American accent after I had answered him.

North Indians (Hindi/Urdu native speakers) cannot pronounce the 'th' in 'the' or 'that'.

The fake Indian accent that annoys me the most is Ajay Naidu's in Office Space. What the hell kind of accent is that?

OK, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about Mindy, not about how all of us can imitate/fake/work our way around all the Indian accents. Truly, my bad.

JSYK - there are so may "Indian" accents, I suggest we give it a rest. I'm a US raised Malayali with a very strong Midwestern-American accent and having friends from all over the Desh, I find that it's kind of sad when we stereotype each other with the accent BS.

If we have a language (whatever it may be - sign, hand waving, Hinglish, flirting, or any permutation) that gets our point across and helps us connect with each other, I think we're good.

Is an Indian accent really that much fodder for talk? Our parents have "the accent"....do we see them as a punchline? As comedic relief on a sitcom? I don't.

Back to Mindy - she ROCKS!

23 · Meenu said

OK, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about Mindy, not about how all of us can imitate/fake/work our way around all the Indian accents. Truly, my bad.

Wow, I hope you're not on twitter, I dread your reply to SM's last tweet.

Abhi discussed his inability to do the accent in the post, opening the door for all of us to share our experiences. I hope people continue to feel comfortable doing so, with your strong opposition to it duly noted.

seriously, you don't think us making fun of our own accents is embarrasing?

why are our accents worthy of so much discussion when the WHOLE WORLD has accents? i never understood that. especially on this thread when we're discussing the differences between north and south indian accents. are they really that funny? do you burst out when you hear your parents talk? or relatives?

i'm obviously not articulate right now, but i do think it's sad...

again, my bad. and i speak southside chicago ghetto.

25 · meenu said

seriously, you don't think us making fun of our own accents is embarrasing?

I don't think anyone is trying to be malicious. Seriously.

25 · meenu said

why are our accents worthy of so much discussion when the WHOLE WORLD has accents?

The fact that everybody farts does not make farts any less funny. Not. One. Bit.

Sorry Anna, don't mean to offend, but if it's not your accent, you shouldn't have to do it.

I understand for actors who are stereotyped into doing an Indian accent, how irritating it may be, but the rest of us shouldn't have to do an accent, should we?

So, if Abhi (whose posts are mosts of my favourites on SM) doesn't have an "Indian" accent, then what's the problem?

Again, it's 2:15am for me...so, will think about why this post made me comment, but love SM and did not mean to come across how I did (to some of you).

The fact that everybody farts does not make farts any less funny. Not. One. Bit.

The Sumerians would certainly agree

28 · meenu said

Again, it's 2:15am for me...

po ozhengedi, penne :)

duly noted, anna mol. you make me laugh!

it's been a rough day and living in india for the last year, i live for that evening call from mom and dad in chicago and their mallu/english accents and i think it just took the wrong turn today.

sorry y'all!

i suddenly have a hankering for sugar wali roti and pistachio ice cream. not together of course. puranpori is a paratha stuffed with a sweet filling. sugar wali roti is a roti with sugar sprinkled on top sometimes with some ghee placed on the roti.

Do you think FZ of GPS is working the centrist accent well enough?

One of my uncle’s who move to Utah about ten years back from Kenya now sounds like Apu in the Simpsons episode where he gets his citizenship.

"sugar wali roti is a roti with sugar sprinkled on top sometimes with some ghee placed on the roti".

YES!! YES!! YES!!! freshly made rotli. arahhhhhhh!!

"I don't think anyone is trying to be malicious. Seriously."
Why not Anna, just because its not about your much publicized, refined/nuanced feelings of loss and hurt?
I am DBD and I feel a lot of ridicule out heer...maybe ppl here think that those of us without American twangs aren't sophisticated enough to sense ridicule!

Talking about acccents - most Americans cant understand Australian accents which I find very strange.

some americans i've met think that the aussie accent is british.

Right on, Melbourne desi!

As a "DBD" i would like to make this clear: I do not like ABDs making condescending/malicious comments about aspects of Indian culture that are not shared between us- including accents. Some of the people who use such accents may be your parents, but there is a much larger community of us here (on Sepia and in the US) who do not have anything in common with the family chain migrating generation that came here earlier and their offspring .

Btw I say DBD because it is the identifier popular here; as a Malayali, I do not identify with the terms Desh or Desi, terms whose existence I became aware of only in the US. Also if any of you feel that I am unduly offended, plese re-read the comments above being aware that most of us are also sentient human beings with real feelings!

Talking of accents, When I cam to the US 8 years ago, I spoke english with the BBC influenced english accent as that was what was taught as the "Proper" way to speak english. No one understood me in Kentucky, which is where I landed. Now, after 7 years in California, my accent has changed over the years, so much so that when I was in India on vacation recently and gave a talk to my peer group, they stopped me to request that I speak in a desi accent or a british accent if I could.....

..what is probably worse than ABDs ridiculing the Indian accent are the couple of Indians here saying that theirs is an almost BBC/"catholic" missionary etc. accent, i.e. not like the masses being ridiculed about. Face it guys- all of us have accents. I myself have been here 8 years but do not speak an iota differently than how I did in India (excepts when some annoyed redneck in a dead end call center job and a semi-literate diction does not understand me on the phone). Otherwise, everybody at work understands me prefectly. The south asians I have seen pick up "american accents" fastest here are those that never spoke it previously.

love her! she is soo hillarious!!

Yes, Malayali is a Dravidian language to the poster who asked earlier. The funny is, it gets made fun of in India too. Weird, because I don't think it's any funnier than a Swedish/Scottish/Aussie/Southern Ohio accent, but there you have it. My own accent is Bangalore convent school, which sounds nothing like Apu. I'm proud to say that I *can* do an amazing Apu though. To all you ABDs, you MUST watch the Brit desi show 'Goodness Gracious Me'. The deliberately garish clothes, the tawdry, sarcastic humour and the uncanny realism of the show make me proud I belong to a race that can make fun of themselves so freely. The following link is an absolute must-see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjNmXkzuYrg

I'm in love. She is hilarious.

39 · hurt said

I do not like ABDs making condescending/malicious comments about aspects of Indian culture that are not shared between us- including accents.

Since when is merely pointing out a difference considered condescending and malicious? Don't blame me for your own inferiority complex. I think the best comment on this thread so far has been Sunil's which acknowledges a fluidity and imparts a certain graciousness to the Indian barrista. Lighten up, "hurt."

I do not identify with the terms Desh or Desi, terms whose existence I became aware of only in the US.

Why would you hear those terms there? Those are relative terms which only have meaning in the diaspora.

(excepts when some annoyed redneck in a dead end call center job and a semi-literate diction does not understand me on the phone)

I understand your pain, but you're not helping your case by throwing around terms like "redneck" and "semi-literate".

I second a moderate version of what Hurt@39 said. I don't believe that there is any malice in this thread: the discussion has largely been what second-gen ABDs grew up with, making the humor at least partly self-deprecating, not malicious. That said, accent differences can be one of the most divisive forces among Indian* Americans: most people who make fun of "ABCD"s target, imitate and parody the accent first, since it is one of the most readily apparent signifiers. Extra care & sensitivity are always good when discussing accents.

*Use desi or South Asian as preferred: I don't intend a difference in the scope of this comment.

Hurt, I do see your point, but any accent sounds funny when taken to its ridiculous extreme. Apu has one of those accents, as I've never heard any DBD speak like that. Certainly not the masses. By the way, I object to DBD. It should just be D, because Desi Born is the default. ;)

I really dislike accents. Much prefer the umlaut myself.

35 · Hurt! said

Why not Anna, just because its not about your much publicized, refined/nuanced feelings of loss and hurt?

Uh...I'm not the one who is carrying on about being hurt on this thread, but thanks for the dick comment. Personal attacks are always productive, thanks.

Some of the people who use such accents may be your parents, but there is a much larger community of us here (on Sepia and in the US) who do not have anything in common with the family chain migrating generation that came here earlier and their offspring .

Newsflash: this is a second-generation blog written by and initially intended for people who were born and raised here. Yes, we have DBDs (and everyone, for that matter) reading our blog but we write what we know. And what we know is the second gen experience. You're the one who is insisting that we are SO DIFFERENT. Why expect us to know or represent your views, then?

Those are relative terms which only have meaning in the diaspora.

Absolutely not.

Desh in Hindi (and some other North Indian languages) means "Home", and Desi means "Home Boy".

They are very frequently used in north India/ Pakistan/ maybe parts of Nepal in spoken language from time immemorial, but not so much in other parts of India, and other neighboring countries.

What he is trying to say, and rightfully so, Desh & Desi are not universal terms in Indian subcontinent. You are not going to hear it in South India (except Hyderabad) or eastern part of India.

Lost in Translation.......Lost in Translation.

Personal attacks (especially those with no basis in reality) are an excellent way to get banned.

i am always mystified when the amreekan s.o, on the drive home from some desi party, will ask about some new face - "Who was that new guy? The guy without an accent?" And i am never sure who the s.o is referring to :-)

Mindy Kaling, a.k.a. ??? Chokalingam

it's like living a double life!

who ostensibly spoke English but when he attempted to converse with me, he looked up helplessly

Totally agree that this is a second-gen American blog and does not claim to representative of all South Asian Americans - only second gens.
Of course, DBDs are welcome but really DBDs are not the target market (nor are European desis or Australians for that matter). Am not being sarcastic.

Ostensibly: apparently: from appearances alone;

Drop it, please. You're reading contempt which isn't there and derailing the thread, that's why your comment was deleted.

38 · hurt said

there is a much larger community of us here (on Sepia and in the US) who do not have anything in common with the family chain migrating generation that came here earlier and their offspring .

i can see why you and your buddies may feel that you don't have much in common with ABDs, but can you elaborate as to why you don't have anything in common with the earlier wave of immigrants?

As an ABD who also lived in India, it is easy for me to navigate both accents. The key thing is to realize is not all Indian accents are the same. If you have trouble with the Apu accent because it comes across as too cartoonish, try the lighter Indian accent that is easier. There is the nasal accent you can find in the south. I notice a thicker accent in the north.
Or just use a neutral accent and sprinkle in words like "yaaar" , "aarrrrey", "you like it , no" stuff like that. That will get you into the groove of an Indian accent.

I totally have a girl crush on Minds

27 · Harbeer said

The fact that everybody farts does not make farts any less funny. Not. One. Bit.

LOL....

Wish this discussion was more Mindy and less accents.
Really liked her, liked Dave for giving her to us.

42 · Swati said

Yes, Malayali is a Dravidian language to the poster who asked earlier.

42 · Swati said

Yes, Malayali is a Dravidian language to the poster who asked earlier.

Forgot to mention, a Malayalee/Malayali is a person who speaks Malayalam. The dravidian language is MalayalAM, y'all...not Malayali. :)

A Dravidian language which has a huge percentage of Sanskrit vocab.

Word. Or athey. However you spell that. :D

52 · so what's her real name said

Mindy Kaling, a.k.a. ??? Chokalingam
it's like living a double life!

Relax mr/madame desi pride. the woman singlehandedly introduced like 50 million households in the united states to diwalllli. more than any amar chitra katha show and tells since the history of mankind have ever done.

I meant Sikkim, etc. re: eastern part of India

Since "Desh" word is very much used by Bengalis.

Hint: Bangladesh.

Love Mindy Kaling. Love. Her.

On accents -- I actually think the back and forth on accents is really interesting. I think part of it has to do with what we think of as a "typical" desi accent (of course, no such thing exists). Neither of my parents speaks with a "typical" desi accent; my mom speaks with a distinct midwestern (Great Lakes) accent, and my dad with something between a Wisconsin and British-Indian English accent (which is slightly different, imo, from the RP accent). The place I hear it the most is in the dropping of articles, especially "the."

What's harder for me to replicate, though are the embarrassing and awful American accents my cousins and I have when we try to speak Punjabi. I have fully given up on at least 5 different letters in the alphabet that seem beyond my reach (an unaspirated c? a reflexive n? what??). Ironically, I cringe when I hear poorly pronounced (read: Umreekan/Brit) Punjabi -- I can't even listen to Aashqui without wanting to scream.

I have a great (and truly ludicrous) high school Indian vs. Indian accent story, but will save it for another comment. :)

63 · Kush Tandon said

Since "Desh" word is very much used by Bengalis. Hint: Bangladesh

sure, desh is a hindi word that means country. that wasn't the point being contested though. apart from manoj kumar though, it is hardly used in everyday parlance in the sense it is in the united states.

Wish this discussion was more Mindy and less accents.

I have a total crush on her ... although she seems to be dating someone :(, Like I ever had a shot :) nice interview in Radar Magazine too.

From the interview:

Your character on The Office, Kelly Kapoor, is a big ditz—is she fun to play?
I don't think there are a lot of times when Asians on television get to play total idiots, so it's really freeing. I don't act too much outside of The Office, but sometimes I do get these calls: "Would you like to be the computer technician in Die Hard 4?" And you're like, "Jesus Christ, of course not. No, no, no, no."

i don't understand why people in both north america and in india make such a fuss over accents. i'm desi from london and whenever i visit these 2 places people are always going on about my english accent. one uncle in india always tries to copy me which drives me nuts. i much prefer the US to canada though. people there are much more likely to take my accent in their stride and they might comment on it once but then they forget about it. in canada, people are so overwhelmed by anything english and they keep going on all day about how they love my accent. india and america have a lot in common, the way the country is divided into states, most people are very friendly and chatty in both countries. other countries don't make such a fuss over accents.

49 · Kush Tandon said

Those are relative terms which only have meaning in the diaspora.

Absolutely not.

Desh in Hindi (and some other North Indian languages) means "Home", and Desi means "Home Boy".

They are very frequently used in north India/ Pakistan/ maybe parts of Nepal in spoken language from time immemorial, but not so much in other parts of India, and other neighboring countries.

What he is trying to say, and rightfully so, Desh & Desi are not universal terms in Indian subcontinent. You are not going to hear it in South India (except Hyderabad) or eastern part of India.

Lost in Translation.......Lost in Translation.

in penninsular india, "desh" is often used to refer to the interior plateau as opposed the the coastal littoral "konkan"...this is more common in maharashtra..."desh" as a word meaning country exists in kannada and telugu, in fact some of the ancient names of these regions are Kuntala desh and andhra desh...it does however compete with the dravidian "Nadu" and its cognates...add to the fact that there is enough a considerable residue of Dakhni language all over the plateau since the days it was a lingua franca, we can safely say that desi/deshi are not alien terms here.

55 · Johnny Valker said

38 · hurt said

there is a much larger community of us here (on Sepia and in the US) who do not have anything in common with the family chain migrating generation that came here earlier and their offspring .

i can see why you and your buddies may feel that you don't have much in common with ABDs, but can you elaborate as to why you don't have anything in common with the earlier wave of immigrants?

Not liking someone is different from not having anything in common with them...i think the overwhelming majority of DBDs have more in common with ABDs than will ever have with any other group or nationality. that you may think we are self absorbed clueless jerks is another matter altogether. that you can be so annoyed by us reflects a perverse commonality.

DBDs need to get over this notion that they have some sort of british accent. no one ridicules the desi "convent" accent more than brits. it takes less adjustment time for american and brits to "get" each other than with a convent accent desi. non-rhoticity alone doesnt make an accent british

No offense, but I've yet to meet any ABD who can do a (any) convincing regional Indian accent. In fact, most attempts are downright cringe inducing to DBDs. DBD parents are usually too polite to point this out to their offspring, and feign great amusement when their ABD kids do their impressions of Mummy and Daddy's accent. And for that matter, I can't recall any ABD getting anywhere close to the standard non-regional Indian public school accent.

I still don't quite get the American obsession with 'acceptable' accents. My American (Scots/German) sister-in-law, who now lives overseas, polices her young children's accents relentlessly ("since when did we start saying laboratory that way, daring?"). Very gauche, IMHO.

Talking about acccents - most Americans cant understand Australian accents which I find very strange.

some americans i've met think that the aussie accent is british.

Interesting, Chockalingam became Kaling, I have never seen vera being used in Tamil names.

hurt:

This is a blog under the humor category. I have made fun of accents and likewise I have been the target too. Do you think no one in India makes fun of accents?. Even within a region where people speak the same language, people make fun of how others speak.

English being the global language obviously would have people speaking in thousands of accents. Generally, if a person migrates and lives in a place different than where he learnt / spoke the language he/she'd be made the target of jokes for his/her accents by the locals.
That is the scenario here with the ABDs having fun. Join the fun and don't spoil it by feeling hurt.

I'm actually amused by the lengths that the DBDs go to fake their accent to be of a real "American".

I can do a great ABCD doing an Indian impression impression.

Why don't you guys have any FOB bloggers?

61 · A N N A said

42 · Swati said

Yes, Malayali is a Dravidian language to the poster who asked earlier.

Forgot to mention, a Malayalee/Malayali is a person who speaks Malayalam. The dravidian language is MalayalAM, y'all...not Malayali. :)

I can't believe I made that mistake! Especially when I take great pains to explain to people that I don't speak 'Indian' or 'Hindoo'. Just blame it on the heavy drinking.

A digression into roots: Most Dravidian languages have a high percentage of Sanksrit loan words, but this does not change their non Indo-European roots. Interestingly enough, the Vedas have words that have been shown to have Dravidian origins. So this exchange worked both ways, one more ancient, and the other more recent. The Sanskrit influence may not be so evident in Tamil, because there was an active effort to purge the language of Sanksrit.

There's so much pointless linguistic superiority around. My schoolmates in India followed this hierarchy: On tier one was English. On tier two were Hindi and other North Indian languages and at the bottom were Dravidian languages. Ridiculously arbitrary, and ludicrously stupid. Has anyone else felt that way? I'm sure DBDs will know what I'm talking about.

What about ABDs? Is it common for you to break into your mother tongue in school, when you're with an ABD friend?

What about ABDs? Is it common for you to break into your mother tongue in school, when you're with an ABD friend?

I only knew a couple fellow ABD's growing up besides my sister and I'd say absolutely not. My sister can understand Marathi quite well but cannot speak it. I can do neither. The only other ABD's I knew were the same way with their mother tongues; they understood quite well but either strongly disliked speaking it, or couldn't speak it at all.

Talking about acccents - most Americans cant understand Australian accents which I find very strange.

Yeah, that is weird. I find Australians VERY easy to understand. Especially compared to thick Scottish and heavy British cockney accents. Some British do this bizarre thing where they often don't sound out the consonants in words properly. They make that weird stopping noise like they're swallowing their words. Not all British do this though ... it is a weird dialect thing? I'm curious. I used to work for a British-owned company and some of my American co-workers complained about certain employees who were just impossible to understand when they spoke fast.

I can't believe I made that mistake! Especially when I take great pains to explain to people that I don't speak 'Indian' or 'Hindoo'. Just blame it on the heavy drinking.

Slightly off-topic, but one thing that drives me nuts about Spanish is that the word for India is 'Hindú' and the word for Hindu (a follower of the religion) is 'Hinduista'. 'Indio' is reserved for the indigenous people of North America.

I'm actually amused by the lengths that the DBDs go to fake their accent to be of a real "American".

Dont be naive. A more neutralized accent leads to more opportunities at work.

The south asians I have seen pick up "american accents" fastest here are those that never spoke it previously.

Very true. That is why most hispters from Delhi or Bombay have a more pronouced accent than the lowly educated jatt from interior Punjab who has stayed in the US for a couple of years. If you speak English fluently, it will be more difficult to unlearn the way you pronounce words compared to someone who doesnt speak much english.

Slightly off-topic, but one thing that drives me nuts about Spanish is that the word for India is 'Hindú' and the word for Hindu (a follower of the religion) is 'Hinduista'. 'Indio' is reserved for the indigenous people of North America.

ditto for chinese - the few dialects i've bothered to check, refer to indians as hindus. it may be jarring initially for some, but i think it's cool that the region was hindustan before religion and nationalism made this into a pissing contest. from the viki on the hindukush

In the Persian language of the Sassanian period, Hindu referred to the inhabitants of the area around and beyond the Indus River, or Hind - the people who were followers of Hinduism. The name is also said to be a corruption of Hindu Koh, from the (modern) Persian word Kuh, meaning mountain. James Rennell, writing in 1793, referred to the range as the "Hindoo-Kho or Hindoo-Kush"[2]. "The same hindu- 'mountain' [in Scythian or Saka languages] is in the name Hindǚ-kuš, where the kuš means 'side, region' connected with Chr. Sogd. qwšy 'side' with -ti- Armenian Parthian k'oušt 'side, region.' [3]

81 · khoofia said

The name is also said to be a corruption of Hindu Koh, from the (modern) Persian word Kuh, meaning mountain.

The version that I've heard from several people, scholars and otherwise, is that Hindu Kush means "killer of the Hindus", because a large number of the Hindu slaves being taken from India to Central Asia perished on their slopes. Whether or not that is nationalistic BS, I cannot say, but Hindu Kush (or Kosh) literally does mean "Hindu Killer" in Persian.

Dont be naive. A more neutralized accent leads to more opportunities at work.

True. But, I think people can figure out the imposters from genuine speakers. It is jarring to hear someone who speaks with Indian accent suddenly switching over to a 'made up' American accent to order coffee in Dunkin Donuts (which BTW is not even close to the real accent).

There are some folks who take 'accent correction' courses and really work hard to change their accent to move up in their professional careers, which is fine.

what is an Indian accent?? i always thought Indians from Kerela or Ahmedabad sound nothing like Indians from Delhi or Calcutta or Shillong. or am i just ignorant?

What about ABDs? Is it common for you to break into your mother tongue in school, when you're with an ABD friend?

No offense, but I've yet to meet any ABD who can do a (any) convincing regional Indian accent.

Re: the "right" accent, this isn't really surprising, even if it is gauche, repressive, etc. Your accent can have a huge impact on how people interact with you and your professional options. For example, I have a handful of friends from the American South who have re-trained and re-learned New England and California accents because people treat them as though they are stupid when they speak in their southern accents. Same goes for my friends who speak with "urban" accents and opt for the more Valley cadence of the suburbs. It's the same with Brits (there's a reason RP exists and people jokingly make fun of regional accents), and naturally with different regions within desi countries.

Johnny Valker, you won't get a chance to find out, he's been banned for hurting a blogger's feelings.

Wrong. He was banned for violating the commenting policy, we don't ban for hurt feelings, despite what you attempt to allege. If you have more spleen to vent, email, don't disrupt the thread.

Growing up through the school system in India i learned Des/Desh meant country (if you listen to speeches or patriotic poems in Hindi ya'll will get it), while desi/deshi implied something done more traditionally or kinda rustic eg: desi ghee as opposed to butter or desi chicken to broiled chicken.

83 · Camille said

(there's a reason RP exists and people jokingly make fun of regional accents)

I feel dumb asking, but what is "RP"?

74 · brownonion said

Why don't you guys have any FOB bloggers?

Because they are all over at UberDesi. That blog does the DBD in America-thing far better than we ever could.

Back on topic, please (and the topic is not "Why does SM ____?)

Slightly off-topic, but one thing that drives me nuts about Spanish is that the word for India is 'Hindú' and the word for Hindu (a follower of the religion) is 'Hinduista'. 'Indio' is reserved for the indigenous people of North America.

Surely, that can't be worse than the french saying: L'inde; nasty, non?

87 · SM Intern said

Because they are all over at UberDesi. That blog does the DBD in America-thing far better than we ever could.

I'm glad you mentioned Uberdesi, because I haven't actually been able to access that site for over two weeks. Has anyone else?

True. But, I think people can figure out the imposters from genuine speakers. It is jarring to hear someone who speaks with Indian accent suddenly switching over to a 'made up' American accent to order coffee in Dunkin Donuts (which BTW is not even close to the real accent).

I have been approached before by at least 2-3 people who got fired from their respective jobs because people could not understand them. People get fired everyday from places like Dunkin Donuts for their accents. Not everyone can afford to go to an accent neutralization center. Sometimes its not a question of faking it. Its a question of people getting comfortable with you which leads to greater job security including for people who work for Dunkin Donuts :)

80 · Johnny Valker said

The version that I've heard from several people, scholars and otherwise, is that Hindu Kush means "killer of the Hindus"

here's some more to debait.

Hindko (هندکو /Hindkoŭ/), also Hindku, Hinko,[1] or Lahnda[2] , لَیہندا) is an ancient Indo-Aryan language spoken in North Western Pakistan, especially in Hazara and Peshawar.[3][4] The literal meaning of the word "Hindko" is "Mountains of the Indus". The word "Hind" is the Persianised reference to the regions associated with the Indus River immediately to the east of Persia and "Ko" means mountains[5]. The word Hindko has also been interpreted to mean the language of Indus mountains.[6] The term is also found in Greek references to the mountainous region in eastern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan as Καύκασος Ινδικός (Caucasus Indicus).

However the people of the largest group in the districts of Haripur, Abbottabad and Mansehra are sometimes recognised collectively ... referred to as "Kharay" meaning City-dwellers or Hindkowans.

thus spake khoofia - he who vikis very vell vhen vella.

I have been approached before by at least 2-3 people who got fired from their respective jobs because people could not understand them. People get fired everyday from places like Dunkin Donuts for their accents. Not everyone can afford to go to an accent neutralization center. Sometimes its not a question of faking it. Its a question of people getting comfortable with you which leads to greater job security including for people who work for Dunkin Donuts :)

I agree that having a right accent helps in certain scenarios. But the folks that I'm talking about are paid well (H1B code coolies.. :-) ) or students on assistantships and their jobs do not really depend on their speaking skills.

I have been approached before by at least 2-3 people who got fired from their respective jobs because people could not understand them. People get fired everyday from places like Dunkin Donuts for their accents. Not everyone can afford to go to an accent neutralization center. Sometimes its not a question of faking it. Its a question of people getting comfortable with you which leads to greater job security including for people who work for Dunkin Donuts :)

Even if someone feels "comfortable" with accents of any kind are bad for business when they are so thick than customers cannot understand you.

Especially when no one else is around who they can understand, like when you're on the phone with a call center worker. Here in my office I'm the only one that can navigate those desi accents. In fact, just the other day a young man lost a sale and commission precisely because of this reason.

It's not their fault, it's corporate America's fault for employing them, but they get the brunt end of it from the rest of us on the other side.
Poor kids, I really feel for them.

And for those chiming, "whats the big deal about our (desis) accents? everyone has an accent".

The desi accent is particularly intense and difficult to understand. Let's face it.

Not everyone can afford to go to an accent neutralization center

They don't work. The desi accent cannot be "neutralized", otherwise those call center kids would not have so many people hanging up on them, precisely because they cannot understand them. I know someone who teaches "accent neutralization" at a call center and he himself has a thick accent. Vaat to do?

What about ABDs? Is it common for you to break into your mother tongue in school, when you're with an ABD friend?

It is/was very common for 2nd gen people in the UK to speak Punjabi or Gujarati (mixed with English of course) with their peers from the same language background. Although now that the UK desi community is moving into its 3rd gen I believe this habit is dying out in the new batch of kids, many of whom can not speak their respective Indian tongues.

What fascinates me is the relatively robust knowledge of Hindi amongst many diasporic Sindhis, including 2nd gen folks... for whom Hindi is not even their mothertongue. Most of them do know Sindhi too of course.

It is/was very common for 2nd gen people in the UK to speak Punjabi or Gujarati (mixed with English of course)

Across the ocean in both Canada and the United States, it is common among many punjabi youth to speak a mix of Punjabi, English and Ebonics mixed together[very painful to listern to]. These young people also tend to use a negative word about afro-americans that starts with the letter N alot. For some reason they use this negative N word instead of using each other names.

rp is received pronunciation darling

I find this thread very interesting because....I am a DBD currently living in the mid-west and I have a 2.5 year old ABD son. :) It is interesting to see him speak in Tamizh and English. He has been going to daycare for a year now and so far, thankfully, he speaks Tamizh at home and English at the daycare. His English is definitely influenced by his Tamizh - you should hear him pronounce the name "Oliver" for instance! (with the "O" sounding more like an "Ah", just like a Tamilian!). And his Tamizh? Clearly influenced by English! You should hear him say "nanbar" (friend) for instance - the "r" is definitely the American one! :D

Knowing more than one language definitely means that our accents are influenced by the other, from what I have seen.

I find it interesting that a lot of DBDs who come to study/work in the US, try their hardest to blend in and part of that has to do with changing their accent and that is so funny as I can see through it (all that effort). Instead, an effort to speak clearly and slowly would help - that is what I found when I started participating in Toastmasters meetings.

BTW, I have never been able to *hear* the difference between a word that starts with a "v" and one that starts with a "w". I have tried asking various people (locals, desis, Europeans) to pronounce words such as "window" and "van" but it always sounds the same to me. As long as I am not able to hear the difference, I will never be able to pronounce it right. :)

First my body fat, then my accent......miles to go

I started participating in Toastmasters meetings.

BTW, I have never been able to *hear* the difference between a word that starts with a "v" and one that starts with a "w". I have tried asking various people (locals, desis, Europeans) to pronounce words such as "window" and "van" but it always sounds the same to me. As long as I am not able to hear the difference, I will never be able to pronounce it right. :)

In many languages, such as the Chinese languages, Indo-Aryan languages (from Sanskrit), Dravidian languages (i.e. under the influence of Sanskrit. Tamil, the classical Dravidian tongue does not show aspiration at all),

she is so funny.. Why is her body language screwed up.

99 · Manvantara said

As long as I am not able to hear the difference, I will never be able to pronounce it right.

try saying the "w" sound, but also keep your front teeth on your bottom lip. you should be able to get that "v" through.

Even and only is PG.

15 · rajendran from rajapalayam speaking said

wunly

11 · Harbeer said

5 · AR said

One of the teachers asked me to read aloud in an Indian accent.

Back in junior high we'd often be forced to read a chapter from the textbook out loud on days that we had subs. You know, we'd take turns reading one paragraph or section each. Being the class clown, I'd always do mine with my fake Indian accent, which would have everybody but the sub in stitches. The sub would then chide the class for being "mean" to the poor foreigner (me), which would only make people laugh even harder. Good times.

My fake Indian accent seems to have gotten worse with the passage of time. Or maybe I just remember it being better than it really was. Shrug.

This is soooooooooo funny!

for an example of a mallu accent

check

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7OhKUYV5c&feature=PlayList&p=5A9CB11443618ED4&index=0

other accents can be found (bengali, punjabi, tamilian etc) at

http://www.youtube.com/profile_play_list?user=nptelhrd

Ah, did I need a little Mindy Kaling in my life right now. That was a great interview. She deflected some of the more uninformed things Letterman said (i.e. 'when you moved here' though she has no accent, and he probably has it written in his cards that she was born in the US) with grace. On the other hand, it bums me out that Tina Fey required Kaling to fake an accent for the movie. One of the (many, many) things I adore about 30Rock is the inclusion of an ABD (I think it's Maulik Pancholy) who has no accent and no continuous references to his ethnic background.

Anyway, my feigned accent is proportionally horrible to how pressured I am at the moment. I have never reacted well to "do that accent, it's hilarious!" But I fully support lifting English quotes from Bollywood movies in Hinglish accents- because that is just all-around good times.

Sorry if I came of a bit angry in my previous posts, but the substance of what I said remains valid. If some of the obvious mockery above of the accent-diverse had instead been applied to, say, gays or African Americans, you would have had commenters here descending on the poster like a ton of bricks (and this has happened). And Anna, this blog I believe was not “initially” intended for gays or AAs too? Maybe SM needs the white liberal elite to officially certify mockery of accent diversity to be politically incorrect to accept what common sense and common decency should have told them already.

To the guy who told me lighten up, try calling a gay a faggot and then tell him to lighten up! You are mocking a part of me that is different from you, and then asking me to lighten up. And no, ABDs mocking the Indian accent is not “self-deprecatory” in any way. An Indian mocking another with a similar accent may be that, but not an ABD mocking an Indian about an accent he does not share.

I grew up with only Malayalam for the first seven years of my life. That has instilled certain inflections into my phonetics that are hard to change. If I am careful, I can keep the hard consonants hard, but often I am not, and my apparently eminently mockable accent slips in. When you do that, you mock a whole personal history, a whole way of living, talking, loving and yes, I choose to be offended by that. A lot of “DBD”s are not aware or do not care, but I do and I think I have a right to.

A common descriptor for Indians from India in the comments section here is FOB, which I feel is pretty derogatory. Even though the white liberal police has already banned that (newsflash?- check wikipedia), the otherwise trigger happy SM intern always gives that a free pass. Maybe using patently derogatory language against Indian born Indians does not violate the commenting policy.

Most ABDs, I have realized over the years, are aware of the Indian accent as part of an upbringing they are secretly ashamed of (this has been my perception and I am sorry if this sounds too general; this is true about “Asian” Americans too, otoh American born Hispanics embrace their heritage with gusto). To the person who feels that I have an inferiority complex, maybe you feel that I SHOULD have an inferiority complex. Sorry to disappoint you.

Sorry to make this a slanging match but it is all just to reinforce a very American point: treat others with respect, even if they are different from you (and even if you think that difference is trivial).

P.S. : SM intern- you may delete this post if you honestly think it does not add value to the debate here.

Over and out.

BTW, I have never been able to *hear* the difference between a word that starts with a "v" and one that starts with a "w". I have tried asking various people (locals, desis, Europeans) to pronounce words such as "window" and "van" but it always sounds the same to me. As long as I am not able to hear the difference, I will never be able to pronounce it right. :)

As someone who used to speak in an Indian accent (or whatever the hell it is that desis in the Gulf speak), I totally feel your pain. I moved to the US when I was eleven and I was able to change my accent in a year and a half, but the only thing standing between me and a complete American accent was that tricky v/w sound. The worst part was the I didn't even know that there was a difference until I was reading harry potter and I couldn't say "Unbreakable Vow", I kept saying "wow", and I couldn't hear the difference. I did speech team in high school, and I unfortunately had to do a speech which contained a lot of "women" and "voters", so I sat myself down and repeatedly listened to people say the two words. I still slip sometimes, but I've been pretty good with it.

Also, my mother speaks in a Malayali accent and I personally think it's a very soft, nice sounding accent. I agree with annoyed on how Indian accents seem to get mocked (in tone, if not outright) on SM. I think it kind of mean and childish, especially in people who aren't capable of switching accents themselves. Funnily enough, Bollywood seems to think S. Indian accents are mockable, but they aren't really the most PC people in the world.

And for the people who remarked on how Indians try to change their accents, it's a survival instinct and the more you sound like someone, the more they'll trust you. Simple as that.

Annoyed,
What the hell are you talking about? The posters on this site use the term DBD not FOB (unless they are making a specific contextual point). We can't police every single comment on this site as we all have real lives. In addition, I am still at a total loss to what comment(s) you find insulting on this thread? Perhaps you can email me and explain better.

Since "Desh" word is very much used by Bengalis.

my parents use the term "beedeshi" for foreigners. in bangladesh of course this can apply to someone from across the river.

#93: "The desi accent is particularly intense and difficult to understand. Let's face it."
--Heh, haven't you heard people from China speak English?! I work in the IT department of a big phone company and of the 30 people in the team I work in, about 12 are from China, 12 from India and the rest are local (mid-western) people. It took me several months to fully understand what the Chinese were saying and this was regarding our work (not a new subject for me). On phone meetings, even now (after close to 6 years at work) I have trouble understanding all the words and usually understand stuff from the context.

#110 - Ah, finally someone who understands... :)
Having been on both sides, so to speak, you are able to understand or "feel the pain".

11 is an interesting age to make the move - you still had the time to make the complete switch (in accent). A friend of mine came here when she was 16 and now, at 26, is still a bit lost. :D

As a DBD, I do understand where some of the DBD posters here are coming from when they feel hurt about their accents being made fun of. I have had many ABD children hear some words I utter and then giggle uncontrollably (as children usually do), which is fine. It is when adult ABDs are condescending about a DBD's pronunciation that it hurts. There is no need for that kind of condescension, IMHO.
But DBD people, there is a difference between mocking and in being able to just make fun, without any hurtful attitude and this thread seems to be of the latter type.

In India itself, we desis have a (nasty) habit of looking down upon the English of people from other states. I suppose it is the nature of people to look down upon others for *some* reason or the other and accent is one on the list.
Back in India, I used to be supremely confident of my English and laugh at people who pronounced "jeero" (for zero) or said "educaSon" (instead of "educaSHun"). All the confidence was shattered (for sometime) in my first week here in the mid-west, when everywhere I went, locals would ask me to repeat my request with: "...the whaaat?". Suddently I felt like my English was completely useless.

It took me some time to realize that while my pronounciation might be different (and difficult to understand), my writing was still intact. :) I have seen a lot of local people make horrible mistakes while writing (and this includes ABDs) and it has always surprised me, since most locals (and ABDs) know only one language! How many times have I seen someone's interest being "picked" or "Your welcome", incorrect usage of the word "lay", confusion about where to use "me" and where to use "I", etc!

So DBDs who feel slighted about your accent, be glad you know more than one language! That is always a good thing, I am told by experts. Don't care much about the person who makes fun of your accent - their language horizon is very limited! :)

To the person who feels that I have an inferiority complex, maybe you feel that I SHOULD have an inferiority complex. Sorry to disappoint you.

That reminds me of the quote"No one can make you feel inferior without your permission"

I do agree with how annoyed 'feels'about the mockery of Indian accent.

Probably not all(or not the majority) of ABD's are prone to be less-than-at-peace with the Indian culture/accent/ but I have encountered many and I would be very surprised if someone on this blog hasn't.Hence the offense that a DBD might take at when anyone uses Indian accent for humour.

Not everyone who indulges in sardar jokes is malicious and many people think that they are merely laughing WITH you and not AT you but the fact of the matter is that some people do use sardar jokes to laugh AT you.....so feeling offended at sardarji jokes is legitimate .If you are amongst those who use the jokes to laugh WITH and not AT ,you might feel that taking offense at such humour is not legitimate because a) either you dont know people who laugh AT (ignorance...not a crime but not an excuse either)or you dont care.

If 'annoyed' was just one DBD amongst he could be passed off as 'a loser who probably is not getting any'(sorry annoyed,not personal...i am sure you are....I mean getting some ,not a loser).Similarly,if there was only one ABD in the entire U.S of A with an annoying chip on his shoulders about his parents heritage,he could be ignored.

However,both the former and sadly, the latter have not an insignificant representation in their respective demographics.This is something that owners of this blog (not intentionally of course) have sometimes failed to acknowledge.

BTW, as someone else already asked, what IS an Indian accent?! There isn't ONE, is there?! It is far too complicated - there are numerous accents that we Indians bring with us, based on what our mother-tongue is.

What does a mainstream American mean when he/she talks about an "Indian" accent? A Gujrati speaking English? Or a Punjabi speaking English?

CR #86:

I feel dumb asking, but what is "RP"?

Manvantara, I always assumed the "average American" meant the Apu accent when discussing the so-called Indian accent (a truly horrific and not even close accent, btw).

Manvantara, they mean the Apu accent.

#78 Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery says "Dont be naive. A more neutralized accent leads to more opportunities at work. " .

All too true. Following that thought, it strikes me that a more "neutralized" skin color would also lead to more opportunities at work for us browns, DBD and ABD alike. Ambi SkinFair cream from India, anyone?

Similarly,if there was only one ABD in the entire U.S of A with an annoying chip on his shoulders about his parents heritage,he could be ignored.

It's probably my age group, but not many ABDs I've met have this problem with an Indian accent. In fact, my very mixed group of friends (probably due to Koffee with Karan and Bollywood) have tried to pick up my cosmopolitan (as I describe it) Indian accent. They've also taken to peppering their speech with Indianisms like yaar, bakwas, and it's rocking. The kids I grew up with assume that they might have to or want to work in India at some point and often ask what the best language to learn for that is, and my recommendation is Indian English and all it's variations. Which is why I thought that the people who are embarassed by Indian accents or think it's hard to understand were childish, I haven't heard that since I was in middle school. I think if you hear it often enough in society and pop culture, it doesn't become such a huge issue anymore. David Letterman might assume that someone with brown skin is from "somewhere else", but most people in my generation don't.

annoyed:

I grew up with only Malayalam for the first seven years of my life. That has instilled certain inflections into my phonetics that are hard to change. If I am careful, I can keep the hard consonants hard, but often I am not, and my apparently eminently mockable accent slips in. When you do that, you mock a whole personal history, a whole way of living, talking, loving and yes, I choose to be offended by that. A lot of “DBD”s are not aware or do not care, but I do and I think I have a right to.

I don't think anyone is taking away your right to be offended. :-) Feel free to get offended.

While you are exercising your right to get offended for the perceived mocking from the ABDs for your (or rather our) accents, try to put yourself in their shoes. We did not grow up in a place where we went to school expecting other kids/teachers to ask you "where are you really from ?" if not every day, then every other day. They would have gotten mocked at just for their skin color even though they have much more in common with the other American kids. So cut them some slack. Like the commenter 11 narrates, indulging in mocking 'Indian accents' and making others laugh etc.. are all efforts to gel in with the "locals".

If you are too sensitive, either you can ignore those things and move on or if you have too much time in your hands, you can spend your time feeling hurt and annoyed. Upto you.

mindy for the win.

given the context, i think this was pretty good. she took the most obvious thing, talked about it immediately, threw it out the window, and went on with the interview. the only really strategic thing to do. whether or not it was intentional, i think it was the right thing to do.

also, let's all (DBD and ABD alike) enjoy the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSN0uAKkQd0

I was watching 'The Namesake' the other day and it was quite jarring to see Kal Penn open his mouth and out comes this American drawl.

I find American accents outside of the typical realm of accents one sees on sitcoms to be rather unintelligible sometimes. I've no problem understanding and telling apart the Brits and Aussies. White South Africans are harder to understand.

I don't get the v/w confusion. My parents could always tell them apart. It might be a convent school thing. My grandmother insisted on sending my mother to convent school because she would learn to speak 'proper English'.

Keeping up English is difficult if one is living in a non-English speaking country. If I don't watch out I will lose it.

87 · SM Intern said

74 · brownonion said

Why don't you guys have any FOB bloggers?

Because they are all over at UberDesi. That blog does the DBD in America-thing far better than we ever could.

Don't mean to hijack but appreciate your kind words, SM Intern.

i think that ABDs mimicking and making fun of desi accents is something many of us do amongst ourselves and not for the sake of gelling with white americans or whoever. that accent is part of my heritage because its what my parents use and is an endearing characteristic of my closest intimates. We may riff on the variations with our ABD buddies, but if anything it is a way of bonding over common experience and not meant to be malicious. if an ABD cruelly taunts you by mimicking an indian accent, that person is a jerk first and foremost, however, all mimicry isnt for that purpose.

one gets the impression from some of the DBDs on this board that there is some ABD DBD social apartheid in the USA...aren't there so many of us who have thoroughly mixed social groups? whether it be my cousins who arrived in their 20's for grad school, or my own classmates, or friends' relatives, small business owners/ employees, people you interact with on the street ect. are we this divided? this hasn't been my experience at all really...maybe its an NYC thing..ive seen desi kids who grew up in less immigrant rich areas being a bit more "allergic" to FOBS(i've grown up partly in such areas as well)..just a hypothesis

Did I get it right? Ms/ Mr Selvan wants us to cut some slack for people who want to mock the Indian accent to blend in?!?!

Just because there is an explanation for everything means there is an excuse for everything??

Again, I am sure majority don't have a malice while mocking the accent ... but so is the case with sardarji jokes .........

And BTW, could you please reserve the condescending ' oh feel free to get offended ' for like maybe setting
boundaries for your 4 year old kid....... !

one gets the impression from some of the DBDs on this board that there is some ABD DBD social apartheid in the USA

You dont say!!

Jokes apart,I dont think its important for us to forge some kind of a 'pan-A+D BD' identity .Life experiences are just too different( and this 'apartheid' is to the extent that many DBD's find it much easier to get along with whites than other ABD's!!).

However,it wont hurt for us to try and understand where each one is coming from.(After all,ABD's did have to put up with DBD's at least for the first few years of their lives , and DBD's will have to put up with ABD rugrats sometimes in theirs!!!)

Have a Happy Wednesday everyone....

126 · rar said

think that ABDs mimicking and making fun of desi accents is something many of us do amongst ourselves and not for the sake of gelling with white americans or whoever. that accent is part of my heritage because its what my parents use and is an endearing characteristic of my closest intimates.

i agree. just about all ABDs have had the Apu stereotype thrown at them at some point in their lives, and probably at a greater frequency than DBDs have. i'm sure most here would take offense if a non desi did that accent. Furthermore, the lack of respect is often a two way street. Many ABDs have been reminded at some point in their lives that they're not really Indian because they speak with a funny American accent or they don't know when Uttaranchal became Uttarakhand, etc. Bollywood stereotypes of second genners don't help either.

sardar ji jokes are NOT the same thing as speaking with an accent. My (desi) friends and I affectionately don purposefully bad and fake "Indian" accents when talking about conversations with parents, etc., but rarely (if never) to mock a person for their language acquisition or cadence. I also take up a Southern accent when in the south and a British accent when in the UK -- it's not always intentional, but it sometimes helps fill out a story or anecdote.

I'm not discounting that plenty of people mock desi accents, and that this is often racialized (i.e., you don't see the same contempt for a straight Brit or Aussie accent), but I don't think it's helpful to automatically default into an ABD v. DBD accent war.

You know, I’m sure that all accents take a mocking beating once in a while. I mean how many times have Americans made fun of British accents?

Made fun more like mimicked

nfa:

And BTW, could you please reserve the condescending ' oh feel free to get offended ' for like maybe setting boundaries for your 4 year old kid....... !

I made two comments the first one asking a commenter not to have hurt feelings

English being the global language obviously would have people speaking in thousands of accents. Generally, if a person migrates and lives in a place different than where he learnt / spoke the language he/she'd be made the target of jokes for his/her accents by the locals. That is the scenario here with the ABDs having fun. Join the fun and don't spoil it by feeling hurt.

and the second one to feel free to get hurt.

If you are too sensitive, either you can ignore those things and move on or if you have too much time in your hands, you can spend your time feeling hurt and annoyed. Upto you.

I'd add another one. I don't really care whether you are hurt or not. I don't get hurt if someone mocks my accent. It is part of the game I signed up for and would move on. It is not a battle I'd choose to fight.

Peace. :-)

I'd add another one. I don't really care whether you are hurt or not

I don't get hurt if someone mocks my accent

Thats very remarkable for you.
Unlike many people on SM ,I have never had any problem with being singled out for airport checks.That doesnt mean I could use the 'grow up will you' refrain as the answer to the problem.....

What made you think that I thought otherwise.Was it the flowers that I gave you??

what you said here

And BTW, could you please reserve the condescending ' oh feel free to get offended ' for like maybe setting boundaries for your 4 year old kid....... !

made me think that I have to offer a full list of choices

1. Feel free to get offended.
2. Do not get offended.
3. I don't care. It's upto you.

Look, any opinion from another person would look condescending if you view it in a certain angle.

Unlike many people on SM ,I have never had any problem with being singled out for airport checks.That doesnt mean I could use the 'grow up will you' refrain as the answer to the problem.....

Actually, I have been singled out for airport checks and I have no problem with it either. If the authorities think that people with a certain profile are likely to cause trouble and need extra checks, and the fear is based on valid reasons, I'm perfectly fine to go through extra checks. It is a small inconvenience, my goal is to reach the other side in one piece. I make the job of the security staff easy by not wearing any jacket or by making sure nothing is in my pockets to set off the alarms.

Sorry to say this, I'll use the same 'grow up' argument in this case too. :-)

Jokes apart,I dont think its important for us to forge some kind of a 'pan-A+D BD' identity .Life experiences are just too different( and this 'apartheid' is to the extent that many DBD's find it much easier to get along with whites than other ABD's!!

it goes without saying that life experiences may have been different, but one would have to speak on behalf of a lot of DBDs to generalize whether they feel one way or another about ABDs. some of us know more DBDs than typical DBDs themselves, and if we dont get along with you it might have to do with something other than your accent or origin. ive even known some DBDs to PREFER hanging out with and identifying with ABDs. some of them were artists that didn't feel the white collar vibe. some were city kids working service jobs who were into the same music/party scene, and some came from elite backgrounds and felt superior to the engineering crowd.
its a cliche to say, but a lot of ABDs themselves feel like outsiders to the SASA crowd on their campuses, and prefer to hangout with latino, whites,blacks, koreans whoever. considering DBDs of different social backgrounds and from different regions of india often form their cliques as well, the whole idea of an ABD/DBD estrangement seems unfit for generalization..

it goes without saying that life experiences may have been different, but one would have to speak on behalf of a lot of DBDs to generalize whether they feel one way or another about ABDs

Umm,I havent counted but its my perception that its not insignificant.

and if we dont get along with you it might have to do with something other than your accent or origin.

And you know what,I really feel stupid that at the end of the day , an otherwise entertaining post had to come down to an ABD vs DBD debate.Therez no hating involved (and in any case,my ABD girlfriend does know my handle so I do have to watch my words or risk having to do laundry again this weekend)

nfa,

didnt mean you personally, nor do i think your perception is unimportant....didnt intend to antagonize

There is clearly good natured ribbing abouth accents, ethnicities, or whatever, and then there is malicious mockery, which isn't cool. But equating either with state supported discrimination such as profiling is ridiculous.

As an ABD who lived a DBD life during my middle years, I can relate to both sides. By the way, the "v w" confusion used to puzzle me. Why would anyone get those two wrong? Aren't there people in India with the name Wasim? Then I realized I make some unconscious mistakes. I pronounce the Telugu word "vankaya"(eggplant) as "Wankaya". Also, for many years, I had no idea I was mispronouncing the Ramayana. I still revert to "Rama+yana" out of habit instead of "Ramaayana".

As far as making fun of accents, as long as it is done in a lighthearted manner, no need to get offended. If you are doing it in person to freeze out someone from having a conversation with you, then it's not cool(I have seen that happen where the only time an ABD will talk to a DBD is to snicker at their mispronunciation of something. The whole ABD-DBD dynamic is for another thread(The DBD parents in those cases who allow such a dynamic to fester are to blame for a lot of that).

BTW,

are we really sure that SM would be a good representative sample of the American-Indian(ABD's ,henceworth to be referred to as AI's by me....ABD has too many consonants and requires too much effort...as does DBD....so its II's and AI's for me from now on) populace?

I think that the contributirs and AI readers to this blog are probably ,if anything,prone to be more empathetic and attuned to the II cause than an average AI would be(considering their non-rejection of just an "A" identity and kinda sorta taking pride in a hyphenated identity).

didnt mean you personally, nor do i think your perception is unimportant....didnt intend to antagonize

122 · Ponniyin Selvan said

Like the commenter 11 narrates, indulging in mocking 'Indian accents' and making others laugh etc.. are all efforts to gel in with the "locals".

I am the commenter in #11 and you are oversimplifying. The "locals" were Indian-, Pakistani-, Vietnamese-, Korean-, Mexican-, Salvadoran-, African-, Italian-, Irish-, Polish-, and all kinds of other hyphen-Americans.

"Annoyed," I am the guy who told you both to "lighten up" and get over your inferiority complex. Please spare me your saccharine self-righteous sanctimony. My sisters and I never spoke Punjabi with our parents because they'd get all condescending and tell us how cute we sounded as they mocked the most minor slips in our American inflected Punjabi. Nobody is mocking anybody on this thread even as close to as bad as the mockery can get (on "both" sides). Years later, I sometimes have native Punjabi-speakers express surprise when I tell them that I am not a native speaker because my thait, pehndu Ambarsaria accent sounds so authentic. (This is not to say that I don't catch myself making errors in pronunciation, because I do, especially when I'm out of practice, and I assume that I'm making plenty of errors that are slipping past my ear as well.)

I don't think you "should" have an inferiority complex, but I don't feel the need to indulge it, either. I don't want you to have hurt feelings, but I think you're actually looking for something to be hurt about on this thread, because it's just not there.

139 · cavity search said

There is clearly good natured ribbing abouth accents, ethnicities, or whatever, and then there is malicious mockery, which isn't cool.

Word.

130 · Camille said

I'm not discounting that plenty of people mock desi accents, and that this is often racialized (i.e., you don't see the same contempt for a straight Brit or Aussie accent), but I don't think it's helpful to automatically default into an ABD v. DBD accent war.

Thank you.

I am the commenter in #11 and you are oversimplifying. The "locals" were Indian-, Pakistani-, Vietnamese-, Korean-, Mexican-, Salvadoran-, African-, Italian-, Irish-, Polish-, and all kinds of other hyphen-Americans.

Right, I don't think I ever defined "locals" to exclude the above mentioned. and no I'm not over simplifying. There is a reason why you tried fake Indian accent than the accent from any of the above mentioned groups, isn't it?.

143 · Ponniyin Selvan said

There is a reason why you tried fake Indian accent than the accent from any of the above mentioned groups, isn't it?

Yeah, because the incongruity between my appearance and my accent can make for comic gold. I used to wear a turban back then, too. I suppose it would be feasible that I could have a Hong Kong accent, but Vietnamese or Polish would be a stretch, don't you think?

I grew up in Houston, Texas and worked hard to lose any vestige of a Southern accent because I didn't want to sound like the morons around me. I didn't use the word "y'all" for a long time. I suppose I've got a bit of a self-hating Southerner inferiority complex, myself, about sounding like a country bumpkin (even though I sound like a bumpkin when speaking Punjabi).

You know what's really funny? My mother (and all her Desi nursing peers) work with a lot of African Americans so their English sounds like a Desi-accented Ebonics. Now THAT is comic gold.

sardar ji jokes are NOT the same thing as speaking with an accent

Maybe you meant 'sardarji jokes are not the same thing as making fun of someone because of his accent'.

And calling someone a 'fucking terrorist' is not the same as sardarji jokes either.Does that mean we start condoning the latter?

Nobody is mocking anybody on this thread even as close to as bad as the mockery can get (on "both" sides).

Hwoever,there are enough such people everywhere(Houston included!) for it to be an irritating ssociological trend(just as its becoming an irrtating trend amongst DBD's to flount Indias recent economic clout to justify or use as a shield all that goes on back in the des).

when i want to sound like a doofus who doesn't know what he's talking about, i usually do a Brooklyn Italian-american accent, as in joey tribbiani's "how you doin'." in retrospect, its racist and classist, especially considering richard feynman had the same accent.

murry gell-mann always suspected feynman exaggerated his accent in protest of the academic affectation so common at princeton (but interestingly, not MIT), practising a reverse classism.

145 · nfa said

Hwoever,there are enough such people everywhere(Houston included!) for it to be an irritating ssociological trend

Which is just another reason why Sunil's story is so great.

Also, I don't think this is a new thing--it has been going on forever--so I dispute your characterizing it as a "trend." My relatives in Ambarsar (read "Amritsar") point out the different accents of Doabis and Malwais all the time.

Aren't there better things to get upset about?

aren't there better things to get upset about??

Of course , let's start with the fact that Eduardo turned out to be such a wimp and ruined all my plans for a hurricane party...

I don't really care about accents and really feel it is beneficial, like someone else pointed out earlier, to use the accent of your cohort. I'm not a big fan of multiculturalism...anywhere...

I would appreciate it though, if people on the other end of the line at Citibank or ATT or wherever, would respond in Hindi when I use it coz I can't understand them sometimes with the "neutral" accent.

I do understand why several people here and everywhere do take offense when Americans with Indian ancestors make fun of their accents. It should be obvious, and I don't know why there is argument over it. In case of DBDs (as people here designate) it is seen as the issuance of a license to "go ahead and make fun of them, we don't care coz we do it too." As much as many of you don't identify your generation with DBD's (maybe rightfully so) many people do, specially in college where most DBD's these days are getting their first exposure to American culture.

149 · RahulD said

I would appreciate it though, if people on the other end of the line at Citibank or ATT or wherever, would respond in Hindi when I use it coz I can't understand them sometimes with the "neutral" accent.

Why do you assume that they know Hindi? There's plenty of people in India who don't speak Hindi.

Coz I'm from India and can tell one accent from another...

Oh that and I ask them where the call center is at. And I do this in a non-patronizing fashion too...call me paranoid but when I'm outside and am giving my card number or social security or pin as confirmation I would rather use a language that no one else around me understands.

#152, RahulD - I hear you on that! My husband can speak 5 Indian languages and so when he makes a call, he usually finds out where that call center is and if he knows the local language, begins to speak in that language! Apart from not having to give out credit card number or SS# in English, it also makes the other person a bit relaxed to speak without the put-on accent. :)

153 · Manvantara

Yea its something I picked up from my parents and uncles who used to call from Russia or Australia and would always say it in Telugu or Hindi.

I just said Hindi because it is kind of common, I use Tamil or Telugu and do not try if it is Kannada because I sound like a jackass.

148 · nfa said

let's start with the fact that Eduardo turned out to be such a wimp and ruined all my plans for a hurricane party...

I don't know what's worse--that Katrina has turned everybody on the Gulf Coast into a sissy who's scared of a little wind and rain or that it's turned them all into armchair meteorologists. I'm sorry your party got (not) rained on. ;-) Here is an article I wrote in the wake of the Rita evacuation disaster a few years back--"Anti-Climax to the Max."

Harbeer:

I don't want you to have hurt feelings, but I think you're actually looking for something to be hurt about on this thread, because it's just not there.

Compared to the endless and often paranoid micro-dissection that goes on at SM when a white person asks an ABD where s/he “is really from�, and about how that is patronizing/ condescending/ racist, I am being quite thick-skinned here. Also if I were the only person, or even if it was only DBDs here that felt there is malicious mockery of Indian accents on SM, you would have sounded more convincing.
Maybe it’s just that you haven’t encountered a DBD tell you that making fun of my accent offends me, and you are just too surprised that it could be so. Maybe you cannot appreciate the fact that for a DBD, the “diverse� but mono-accented universe of a US corporate board room or morning hospital rounds can be intimidating if s/he is constantly told that his/her accent is funny/intense/etc, even if otherwise perfectly understandable. Maybe you were wrong to assume that only the white guy should accommodate diversity and that color/culture is the only acceptable form of discrimination. And maybe you just need some sensitivity training.

My sisters and I never spoke Punjabi with our parents because they'd get all condescending and tell us how cute we sounded as they mocked the most minor slips in our American inflected Punjabi.

Sorry to be blunt, but that doesn’t sound convincing. There must be more credible reasons why you avoided speaking Punjabi at the time. I applaud that you took the effort later to learn the language.
Everytime I meet an ABD who responds that they know absolutely no Hindi/ Telugu/Malayalam, or as some have put it “I am an embarrassment to (XYZ Indian language)�, I know the embarrassment lies elsewhere. And it is this embarrassment that is projected onto the unsuspecting newly arrived DBD who encounters his first ABD on the US campus or office.

Please spare me your saccharine self-righteous sanctimony.

I have realized that in the US you have to speak white elite liberal-ese to get through to the white aspirational class. It runs counter to my unreconstructed DBD instincts, but as is so obvious here, common decency isn't sufficient enough an argument to convince people. Why, I might even get banned for unnecessarily disrupting the discussion.

I have realized that in the US you have to speak white elite liberal-ese to get through to the white aspirational class. It runs counter to my unreconstructed DBD instincts, but as is so obvious here, common decency isn't sufficient enough an argument to convince people.

Leaving a comment like this is a strange way of exhibiting your "common decency" and does nothing for your "argument" (which I still don't understand by the way).

156 · annoyed said

Compared to the endless and often paranoid micro-dissection that goes on at SM when a white person asks an ABD where s/he “is really from�, and about how that is patronizing/ condescending/ racist, I am being quite thick-skinned here.

i don't think the solution to thinskinned offense-taking is competitive intolerance. can you please describe what comments on this thread you found mocking or offensive, instead of positing tautological generalities that malicious mockery is, well, malicious? and please get rid of the persecution complex - people here are actually engaging with you, your repeatedly attributing malice intent ("oh! i might be banned!") without any provocation is really quite the mark of paranoia.

i am a fob (or dbd or h1-b visa holder or whatever other term has been approved by the pc police today) reader of this site, and i approve this message.

111 · Abhi said

Annoyed,
What the hell are you talking about? The posters on this site use the term DBD not FOB (unless they are making a specific contextual point). We can't police every single comment on this site as we all have real lives. In addition, I am still at a total loss to what comment(s) you find insulting on this thread? Perhaps you can email me and explain better.

Abhi, I meant that the FOB slur has frequently been used on SM.
Maybe you cannot police every comment, but at least don't use it to headline your blog posts. A couple of examples:
Drop it like a FOB Abhi, i.e. you, 3/2005
Advice to the FOB wading ashore... Vinod, 10/2004
and even: Is FOB a fighting word? Ennis 5/2007, who asks innocently (at the end of a long post describing stabbing and firebombing between newly arrived and Canadian born Sri Lankan Tamils over being called FOB) : “Is FOB a highly offensive word?" In bold type!

Either I am this hypersensitive jerk or maybe you guys just don't get it.

The typical discussion of DBDs on SM is that of a caricature: “Uncle"s and “Aunty"s with no depth or complexity forcing ABDs into arranged marriages; the recently arrived IT guy who is yet to discover deodorant, or other such attributes that are wildly funny, distasteful and/or mockworthy. If it is about a parent or a relative, there will be a mention of the immense affection the ABD has towards them, but the affection is towards the parent/ relative, and not for the demographic the caricature represents. As a DBD with no family in the US, the caricature and the mockery offends me. (Before somebody jumps the gun, pls read what I say here. You can still reminisce, share and bond without indulging in caricature or put-downs.....hey, so much of the Jewish migratory experience is about celebrating the difference between their generations. Btw, another of those groups that is not ashamed of their heritage.)

I will admit though that there has been a switch from FOB towards “DBD" lately for which I am grateful. I have been visiting SM since the days when the slur was the de facto and only way to reference IBIs, and see this as a huge improvement. Thanks for the effort.

Abhi, I meant that the FOB slur has frequently been used on SM. Maybe you cannot police every comment, but at least don't use it to headline your blog posts. A couple of examples: Drop it like a FOB Abhi, i.e. you, 3/2005 Advice to the FOB wading ashore... Vinod, 10/2004 and even: Is FOB a fighting word? Ennis 5/2007, who asks innocently (at the end of a long post describing stabbing and firebombing between newly arrived and Canadian born Sri Lankan Tamils over being called FOB) : “Is FOB a highly offensive word?" In bold type!

Either I am this hypersensitive jerk or maybe you guys just don't get it.

In every post you point to above there was a specific contextual reason that word FOB was used and I would use again (except maybe the one by Vinod wayyyback in 2004 before we switched to the term DBD). As a matter of fact, I'll see your examples with mine. I feel like you are guilty of the same thing you are accusing people here of. You are generalizing everyone and making it seem like the vast majority of people here are anti-FOB. In doing so your tone comes across anti-ABD. The use of FOB vs. DBD is contextual and we can't expect everyone will adopt DBD over night (as most people will keep saying ABCD and not ABD).

Its a pity no one uses DCBA
Desi Confused By America
My Fraternity Brother called me that whenever I used to call him an ABCD :P

Its a pity no one uses DCBA Desi Confused By America My Fraternity Brother called me that whenever I used to call him an ABCD :P

Well I will now!

To: 162. Another ABCD

Yeees Yeees...It is working

Something Something Something Daaark Side...

(am I bringing down the intellectual level of the debate here?)

Compared to the endless and often paranoid micro-dissection that goes on at SM when a white person asks an ABD where s/he “is really from�, and about how that is patronizing/ condescending/ racist, I am being quite thick-skinned here

Maybe you were wrong to assume that only the white guy should accommodate diversity and that color/culture is the only acceptable form of discrimination

Maybe you cannot appreciate the fact that for a DBD, the “diverse� but mono-accented universe of a US corporate board room or morning hospital rounds can be intimidating if s/he is constantly told that his/her accent is funny/intense/etc,

And I dont think anyone here is looking for an excuse to or begging others to feel sorry about themselves/their situation.

Transplanting yourself half-way across the world ,strangers in a strange land,not having the 'luxury'to be able to see your immediate family for months or years and in many cases,starting a job for the first time ever,does make you strong enough not to lie awake about your accents or ABD's or who-hates-what-and-why.Trust me,if I was to start feeling sorry for myself(which I actually did for the first few months as an intern) I would have a million other things to worry about other than my accent or how someone who just happens to be the same color as me is disparaging/indifferent.

Transplanting yourself half-way across the world ,strangers in a strange land,not having the 'luxury'to be able to see your immediate family for months or years and in many cases,starting a job for the first time ever,does make you strong enough not to lie awake about your accents or ABD's or who-hates-what-and-why.Trust me,if I was to start feeling sorry for myself(which I actually did for the first few months as an intern) I would have a million other things to worry about other than my accent or how someone who just happens to be the same color as me is disparaging/indifferent.

True. Then what really is your point?. Different people have different sensitivity scales on different issues. I'm going to generalise here a little bit based on the responses. pardon me.

ABDs take offence to the question "where are you really from?"
DBDs take offense to the mocking of their accents.

One group thinks the other group is a bit extra sensitive on their respective issues. makes sense if you view throught each one's prisms. Blogs / comments can help the different groups to understand (or atleast try to understand) each other viewpoints.

True. Then what really is your point?

One group thinks the other group is a bit extra sensitive on their respective issues. makes sense if you view throught each one's prisms. Blogs / comments can help the different groups to understand (or atleast try to understand) each other viewpoints.

While I did play the devil's advocate earlier, I feel like on some level there is so much hypocrisy in suggesting that we can't even make fun of each other in a jocular vein!

Oh my god, if we delved into how much Indians make fun of each other's accent IN India, mockery here is mild...Growing up, even my cousins, used to make fun of both my Hindi (aside from the fact that "kaiku" IS a funny word) and my English !

I think, a lot of people (me included) don't like it when ABDs do it, for reasons other than the fact that their accent is being mocked (namely that it is ABDs doing it); but no one seems to be acknowledging that! Instead we(from India) are all going "to be honest with you Diane, aahm Surpriizzed"

Either I am this hypersensitive jerk or maybe you guys just don't get it.

168 · Camille said

I'm pretty sure it's the former, in this case.

Damn, girl! This from uber PC you? :P

Either I am this hypersensitive jerk or maybe you guys just don't get it.

I'm pretty sure it's the former, in this case

Naah, you would be ill advised to jump to the conclusion missy....in this world of murders and 9/11 and the holocaust and wars,anything that is discussed on SM could be construed as trivial or redundant or hyper-sensitive.

Just dont forget to remind me to send 'you are a hypersensitive jerk' card to your father/brother/cousins next time they get upset about someone calling them a terrorist/Osama/Iraqi etc etc.

Oh my god, if we delved into how much Indians make fun of each other's accent IN India, mockery here is mild...Growing up, even my cousins, used to make fun of both my Hindi (aside from the fact that "kaiku" IS a funny word) and my English

Like, I totally agree....like, as in hundred percent pakka....

This is NOT about India vs America.Should not be too diffcult to judge between the two which one is more PC ( or SC,my nn for socially correct).For God sakes,I chose to move to this country over my hometown,my parents,the first quarter(hopefully) of my life....and not just for the money.I am sorry if in the midst of all the melee I forgot to mention how happy I am to be here vs back 'there'.

Its about "perception" and "reality" and "all-thats-inbetween" of slights and insults and complexes ( and of course,DBD's have an even bigotry package....the caste issues,hindus vs muslims,north vs south et etc),and ways to get past them.

# 165 “ABDs take offence to the question "where are you really from?"
DBDs take offense to the mocking of their accents.
True. Then what really is your point? “
The point, Selvan anna, is that on this board the former is acknowledged, facilitated and empathized with, while the latter is denied, ridiculed or put on somebody’s fevered imagination. And before you tell me that this board was initially intended for ABDs, I know it and that doesn’t change anything one bit.

168 • "Camille said
Either I am this hypersensitive jerk or maybe you guys just don't get it.

I'm pretty sure it's the former, in this case.

Damn, girl! This from uber PC you? :P”

Well she is not the first person to pick and choose from the offerings of PCness to suit her concerns.

To DBDs who say that accent mocking exists in India, and is therefore kosher:
If there had been a situation in which you had *mocked* my Malayalam accent (versus your “convent”/ Hindi/ Northie/ whatever accent), you would have heard from me. It has happened to me in India, and I have always given people who did it a piece of my mind. Malayallathille oru chollu ondu...but you wouldn't follow
And btw they have lately been doing pogroms in India- maybe we should replicate that everywhere.

It’s not that I don’t have a sense of humor. But like nfa pointed out, there is no humor involved in laughing at someone. And I am perceptive enough to make the difference.

cavity search, nfa, annoyed:

The issue is not a dichotomy of jerk vs. thoughtful and commanding revolutionary agent of good, which is how this conversation has been set up over the last 30 comments. Not only have nfa's comments reeked of sanctimony, they've also purposefully read malice into a conversation where, for the most part, there was none (by all accounts, this has been a shockingly tame SM thread). Instead of meeting people where they're at, there's this overall tone of beating them over the head -- even when they're "on your side"! This is where my jerk comment comes from; not from the sentiment or thematic content of your comments, but from the uncivil tone (which, coincidentally has nothing to do with the "convenience" of a PC-attitude in this context). We all have our moments -- goodness knows I've had mine --, but this one just keeps going and going and going and going... is it going to reach a conclusion, or is it to "make an example" of other posters and commenters?

nfa and annoyed, I have no idea what your intent or tone is, but I have feeling it's to illustrate and emphasize that people (esp. DBDs) experience real and frustrating everyday racism on the basis of their accents and otherwise, and that ABDs are not exempt from perpetuating those stereotypes, biases, etc. If that's the case, then all I'm asking is that you recognize the impact of your method of engagement on the tenor of the conversation. It doesn't mean you shouldn't bring up valid points or that you shouldn't challenge people, but I do think it's helpful to either assume good intent or maintain a holistic view of the conversation before assigning blame to others.

Sorry, nfa, I didn't mean to ascribe a trait only to you -- I meant to include annoyed, also, throughout. Again, my intent isn't to blame anyone, but to explain how this is playing out in ways that really aren't encouraging a discussion or helping either "side" make their point effectively.

171. NFA

Were you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? I don't quite get how what you said was related to what I said.

Also if you don't mind can you explain the Cher Horowitz/Moon Zappa/Rudyard Kipling Sahib reference?

I like her but seriously, her name is NOT K-e-ling. it IS K-aa-ling.

178 · indranee said

I like her but seriously, her name is NOT K-e-ling. it IS K-aa-ling.

Ya, I wondered about that too soon after the initial comment by Letterman that he had mispronounced her name. Chockalingam is pronounced "chok-ka-lingam" and not "chok-kay-lingam". So what the probs? :P

Camille,

"by all accounts, this has been a shockingly tame SM thread"
Because it did not involve an issue where ABDs were passionately divided? Most discussions mentioning real life US DBDs on SM are one way streets, with the occasional DBD who will ingratiate himself into the conversation with a handle such as "fob" or "brown fob" and saying how he is mildly different/superior from the class being talked about. I have been coming to SM for several years now, but had never posted. I would always find the caricaturing immensely annoying, but bcos of real life reasons, could never actually post.

"they've also purposefully read malice into a conversation"
FYI, much before I "purposefully read malice" or even had posted, an ABD had spotted it. Kudos to her.

We are essentially having a trans-cultural conversation here, even if we are speaking the same language. English is a third language for me and unlike for many of you, I have to try really hard to articulate what I feel. It would be helpful if you did not assume "tone" into my posts and focused on the content. With the earlier qualification, I can still pick up plenty of posts here that have an uncivil tone, and they are not by me (or nfa). My intent here is not to be disruptive, but to highlight an issue that exists, but which ABDs appear oblivious of. It is this systematic, persistent discounting of a real, felt problem that is annoying.

I am not a sanctimonious or rude person per se. I am actually quite mild, even with a sense of humor and if you knew me, you may even think I am cool! But some of the denial here had really aggravated me, especially because accent ridicule and discrimination is really just a symptom of the discrimination foreign born individuals face in the US, at work, socially, in the (even legal) immigration process and elsewhere. Sometimes when a discrimination is not articulated, it does not exist. Its the next frontier for the civil rights movement.

I apologize to anyone offended by my tone, as it was not my intention. This has taken quite a bit of my time, and I will hopefully not post again for the next few years and get on with facing some real life discrimination :)

annoyed, I hope I didn't hurt you or dissuade you from writing. Thanks so much for clarifying. I wasn't trying to read any negative intent into your (or nfa's) posts, but the back and forth wasn't going anywhere and was continuing to devolve. I think it's difficult to because as a "new" commenter there's a period of acculturation where others get used to your style, personality, concerns, etc. There are DEFINITELY other "uncivil" posts on this thread, but familiarity means I'm able to discount or weight someone's comment based on their previous commenting history. In that sense, it really helps to have a person continue to comment over time because it's easier to meet them where they're at.

By calling this thread "relatively civil," I only meant that, despite the barbs and jibes, this is relatively smooth. :)

Not only have nfa's comments reeked of sanctimony, they've also purposefully read malice into a conversation where, for the most part, there was none

Nopus copus.I am sorry if I failed to clarify ( but I think I did).
There was,what I consider to be a failure to acknowledge/understand a certain viewpoint and that was mildly grating but I do not think there was,from my side, any allegation or even insinuation of malicious intent(at least from anyone on SM).That is not to say that the systematic malice is entirely non-existent ......your viewpoint seems to be 'even if there is',its ignoreworthy,my viewpoint is that,given the PCness that exists on SM otherwise, its not.Maybe that is all there is to it.

180 · annoyed said

and I will hopefully not post again for the next few years and get on with facing some real life discrimination :)

don't forget to leave ample time to feel sorry for yourself. all those hurt feelings might be offended if you don't nurse them properly.

Annoyed, nfa, some of us are more complex than you might think.

156 · annoyed said

Sorry to be blunt, but that doesn't sound convincing. There must be more credible reasons why you avoided speaking Punjabi at the time. I applaud that you took the effort later to learn the language.

You know what? That is the truth and no offense but I don't really care whether you believe me OR applaud me--just as I'd hope you don't really give a hoot what I think. We're just strangers passing by each other on teh interwebs, who cares? It's Friday!

183 · fob said

180 · annoyed said

and I will hopefully not post again for the next few years and get on with facing some real life discrimination :)

don't forget to leave ample time to feel sorry for yourself. all those hurt feelings might be offended if you don't nurse them properly.

Comments like this remind me of what I love about SM comment boards. Y'all can be so funneee :)

annoyed: Seriously, "next frontier for the civil rights movement"? I understand your point about not reading tone into your words, but your words do get a bit (unintentionally?) bombastic sometimes.

I'm not American born, but I washed up here in my early teens and had to assimilate pretty quickly. When teachers carefully ignore your waving hand in class because they don't want the bother of trying to understand your "foreign" accent, and kids follow you around calling you "dot-head" (esp neat since I don't wear a bindi) ... color me talented but I sure did get my As pancake-flat and stopped rrrrrrrolling my Rs to sound like a proper midwesterner mighty darn quick.

Anyway, I understand how frustrating it can be when people focus on how you say something instead of what you're actually saying. But most ABCD (ABD? what terms are we using for PC reasons again? I can't keep up) commenters on SM talk about "FOBs" and "Aunties" and "Uncles" and accents with the kind of mockery that comes from and is tempered with love and a slight sense of longing... love for their accented FOB parents/aunts/uncles and a sense of longing for the South Asia they represent and talk about. Going to visit is never the same as being "from" there, you know? They are just different, and that difference, with no judgements, is what this blog tries to address.... I think :)

I used to think it was rather ridiculous how ABD kids would obsess (in my eyes) over parent's tea drinking habits or desi dishes or some other minor detail...I was trying to Americanize as fast as I possibly could and dealing with geopolitical identity issues (was a very angsty teen) and here they were bragging about how they could also make dhal? But I've been here so long I can't say I'm 'from' my country of birth anymore and I've caught myself getting weirdly excited when I find someone else who likes Marmite.

So my point is, please don't assume the motives of everyone who comments or what this blog is about based on your interpretation of our interpretation of a few words.

185 · Cicatrix said

Comments like this remind me of what I love about SM comment boards. Y'all can be so funneee :)

And your last comment reminds me of what I love about SM. That was brilliant and beautiful. Thank you.

*Speechless*

thanks :)

Chockalingam is pronounced "chok-ka-lingam" and not "chok-kay-lingam". So what the probs? :P

That's because Letterman was thinking of a different pronunciation for Chokalingam.

Or in Tamil: Vera Chokalingam.

Chockalingam is pronounced "chok-ka-lingam" and not "chok-kay-lingam". So what the probs? :P

That's because Letterman was thinking of a different pronunciation for Chokalingam.

Or in Tamil: Vera Chokalingam.
--------------------------------

Oh man, I almost cracked up at work. Well played.

Choke a lingam? Or is it "chock (full of) lingam"?

How about "chota lingam"?