August 23, 2008
Why Joe Biden? Answer: PakistanPolitics
As everybody and their mother now knows, Obama’s Vice Presidential running mate will be Senator Joesph Biden of Delaware. Very clever of Obama to wait the whole week, gathering the cell phone numbers of thousands of potential supporters wanting to be the “first to know” via text message (well eat it guys because this post is up even before you got your lousy text message…at ~3:30 a.m. EST). His campaign now has the ability to send get-out-the-vote texts to thousands of young and new voters, many of them who don’t even keep land lines and are traditionally hard to reach on election day. Anyways, we here at Sepia Mutiny have of course written about Joe Biden’s predilection for verbal gaffes before (see Donutgate here and here), which is probably his greatest weakness. However, it is no doubt his considerable strengths that led Obama to choose him as the running mate. Here Obama, in his own words, describes what he was looking for:
“Obviously, the most important question is, is this person prepared to be president? Second-most-important question, from my perspective, is: Can this person help me govern? Are they going to be an effective partner in creating the kind of economic opportunity here at home and guiding us through some dangerous waters internationally? And the third criteria for me, I think, was independence. I want somebody who is going to be able to challenge my thinking and not simply be a yes-person when it comes to policymaking…” [Link]
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Biden walking with Kerry and Nawaz Sharif near Lahore earlier this year |
Arguably, the most dangerous waters to be waded through internationally in the next few years will be the tribal areas of Pakistan and it’s border with Afghanistan. There is probably no one in the Senate who knows more about these issue than Biden. In fact, remember this article I blogged about last November:
President Pervez Musharraf and opposition leader Benazir Bhutto each placed telephone calls from Pakistan to Democratic Sen. Joseph Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, to discuss the country’s crisis before either talked to President George W. Bush.
On Saturday, Bhutto stressed to Biden the need for parliamentary elections in January with Gen. Musharraf remaining as president but leaving the army. Musharraf called Biden Tuesday and asked that their conversation be kept confidential. Biden got the impression Musharraf could accept January elections although he had triggered the crisis by suspending the constitution. [Link]
Obama could definitely use Biden’s counsel on Pakistan given his own awkward statements earlier in the political season. Even the pundit class (on Face the Nation in the clip below) gives Biden his due when it comes to his foreign policy chops:
Don’t misunderstand me, there is lots to like about Biden as a potential VP as David Brooks pointed out on Friday in the NYTimes, but it is his deep knowledge of Pakistan and the problems the United States faces going forward in that region that drove this pick in my opinion. In fact, just three days ago Biden had this to say:
“I congratulate the people of Pakistan on the peaceful resolution of their political crisis, and I applaud the decision of President Musharraf to give up his office for the good of his nation.
“The two major parties in the governing coalition - the PPP and the PML-N - worked together to bring about a change in government through constitutional and nonviolent means. This transition represents the first time in Pakistani history in which a president installed by the military has been removed by constitutional political action.
“I urge Pakistan’s leaders to focus now on the pressing challenges of the future and resist the temptation to settle scores of the past. President Musharraf made the right choice in stepping down. I hope his resignation marks the end of the political turmoil that has immobilized the Pakistani government in recent months…” [Link]
Also, in July Obama joined Biden and Republican Dick Lugar in announcing a bill to increase aid to Pakistan:
Barack Obama will announce today that he is co-sponsoring legislation with Sens. Joe Biden (D-Del.) and Richard Lugar (R-Ind.) that would triple non-military U.S. aid to Pakistan.
Obama will highlight his support for the bill, which will be unveiled this morning, in a speech today on national security.
“We must expect more of the Pakistani government, but we must offer more than a blank check to a General who has lost the confidence of his people,” Obama states in excerpts pre-released by the campaign. “It’s time to strengthen stability by standing up for the aspirations of the Pakistani people. That’s why I’m cosponsoring a bill with Joe Biden and Richard Lugar to triple non-military aid to the Pakistani people.”
Biden and Lugar will unveil their bill at a news conference this morning. It would authorize $7.5 billion to Pakistan over five years to be used for development purposes such as building schools, roads, and medical clinics. It also calls for “greater accountability on security assistance,” according to Biden’s office, pushing Pakistan to step up its counterterrorism efforts against al Qaeda and the Taliban. [Link]
If he wins the election Obama will have lots of advisors, including governors, to help him try and revive the U.S. economy, the most important issue to voters. Over the last eight years however, our nation has learned that you need critical thinking, independent minds inside the White House when it comes to our foreign policy. Have no doubt that the border region between Pakistan and Afghanistan will drive a significant chunk of our foreign policy, and thus Obama decided that Biden was his man.
abhi on August 23, 2008 12:57 AM in Politics, Profiles · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Biden — the perfect foil for Palin!
Abhi: I think Biden is a good choice. Let's go and celebrate at a local "Dunkin Doughnuts".
It's official. The website was updated even before the text messages went out!
It'll be interesting how Biden backtracks his "President cant need on-the-job" training comments. Yes his South Asia views are knowledgable but also his dealings with Caucus regions are ever more important now. Biden does well in townhall meetings and pancake breakfasts can hopefully corall Catholics and lower income whites (Hillary voters).
Also interesting: Biden advised Kerry in 2004 to pick McCain as his VP. And Biden has repeatedly praised McCain during the primaries. Ah, politics and bedfellows.
Dash is back again...a big kiss to my lovely Anna! I can't believe my fellow Desi's on this site is supporting Obama....espeically when he picked Biden!
Do you clowns remember what the good Senator from Deleware said of us:
"You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent."
Of course, am not suprised by Abhi's commentary....some people never learn!!
Well you need somebody to counter McCain's temper tantrums. I think it is an excellent choice and blows a hole in anybody's argument that Obama's candidature is weak on national security/foreign policy.
5 · Dash Riprock said
What's wrong with running a 7-Eleven or Dunkin Donuts? It's an honest way to make a living. It's a service business and very hard to run a make a profit out of. Sen.Biden, if yoy read this I heart you for saying that. We Americans originally from India thank you for appreciating our spirit of enterprise in Delaware. And Senator, any accent will do, not just an Indian. Although if you want to learn that the lessons are free! All the way Obama-Biden!!! Hestory beckons!
What exactly is wrong with the Senator's statement?. Do you think there are not many 7-11 / Dunkins in Delaware that emply Indian immigrants?.
Biden did praise Obama too if you remember :
And this one is strictly for Mumbaikars/Bombayites/Bombaywalas/Bambaiyyas - how would Bal Thackeray greet Sen./VP Candidate Joe Biden?
Hi Bidooo? Kasa? Kai?
Dash, maybe you can actually read the post before leaving a comment.
Delaware is going crazy right now with BidenWatch2008 coverage. The First State loves having its day in the sun.
Biden is one arrogant SOB. Anyone who says, "I am pretty sure I have a higher IQ than yours," on C-Span and says it in an adversarial mode is someone I cannot be a fan off. His Indian comment hides a latent racism imo.
I think the Biden 7/11 comment was not offensive at all. It would be classist ("class" -ist) to say that it was offensive. Anyone who has ever lived in a medium size American city, has by now the WRONG impression that all Indians are smart because most are Doctors/Lawyers/Techies. Heck, we are getting over represented in wall street too. I fail to understand this urge of playing the "victim" ??
I think Biden is a good choice but Hillary would have been better. In anycase the VP part of the ticket has historically not help win the whitehouse, however it might have helped in losing.
13 · Vic said
Biden, asked on Fox News how he would sway southern voters. One of his responses was that Delaware used to be a slave state..lol. But anyways, it's good that Biden fills in the foreign policy gap.
Hey! Nice to see so many Indians here. Thanks for stopping by. Can somebody get me a slushie? I need a drink. You know why that clean, well-spoken black fellow over there picked me. It's because I'm smarter than the Senator from Punjab. I have a higher IQ than you guys. I could clean up at the spelling bee if there wasn't an age restriction.
Ahhhh. Abhi.....are you jealous that I did not blow a kiss out to you? Well, here's a big fat, wet for ya.....muah....:-*
Funny. Forgot to mention my participation in hair-club-for-men... good for bonding with the parrot-heads.
Was in a Dunkin' Donuts in South Carolina a few weeks ago... nary an Indian in sight.
All you Biden supporters and defenders of the Dunkin Donuts comments... look deep deep into your souls and think hard about if you would really let this comment slide if some random stranger on the street made it or somebody at your university or workplace or a Republican politician.. think really hard about it.. be honest with yourself. Free your mind.
This is incredible. Of the entire pool of people with foreign policy experience that Obama could have chosen from, he went with Biden. I think he just lost my vote.
The infamous clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XUEMUnvWY4
Doesn't anyone ever READ the actual post :(
The links to Donutgate are in the post!
So you've got Mr. Apu who thinks that Mr. Being Called a Muslim is a Smear is not ready to be president. Dream ticket for the brown crowd, right?
Another desi connection to Biden from TOI -
LOL. We Delaware-based Indians tend to like Joe Biden. He always comes to our Indian functions and supports the Indian-American community. He's appealing to both first and second-geners alike. To the first generation immigrants, he's a source of pride. They like his policies on India/Pakistan. If people come to him telling him so-and-so received a deportation notice after working hard here for five years, he takes care of it, little to no questions asked. He acknowledges South Asians' accomplishments in Delaware and doesn't think of the South Asian people as some unidimensional, moneyed class that's just waiting to contribute to his campaign.
As for us second-geners, I remember a little more than a decade ago he (probably inadvertently) explained his thinking to us. He told us about how he can't wait to see us grow up and represent the Indo-American community and represent America. He understands the differences in both experiences and political stands between Indians and Indian-Americans.
Joe's the farthest thing from racist or paternalistic. If he had exclaimed "You can't walk into a pub in Delaware without a slight Irish accent," it would never be construed as racism. He genuinely thinks all of us Delawareans are part of one community, whether we be brown or white or purple, and I think that's a good sign in a country recently so obsessed with 9/11 witch-hunts.
I don't know why people are getting offended by Biden's comments. If you want to talk about offensive people, listen to Michael Savage. Haha.
Since a few vocal commenters never developed reading comprehension skills let me be explicit: There is nothing in my post that says I support Biden (or Obama for that matter). This post explains why I believe Obama picked Biden. If you aren’t willing to read a post then please think twice before commenting on it so that I don't have to waste my time responding to you. Thanks.
Proving, yet again, that the dumb term:** "post racial", applies solely to black people.
So who thinks "the maverick" is going to see & raise, the Dunkin Donuts gaffe by selecting the articulate, brown, Christian, quentissentially American guy Jindal? Not that you want to be pandered to or anything.
**in his 2nd book, he explains that he doesn't think the US is post racial at all if we consider SES indicators between b-w America. (Chapter 7 :"Race" pg 232)
Hey Quaker, are you willing to give George Allen the same benefit of the doubt?
It is an interesting V.P pick indeed, particularly from the Desi angle.
Joe Biden was one of the first U.S. Senator's to meet Indian politician Narendra Modi during his first trip to the states in the early 90's and the Biden-Modi relationship is a secretive, low-key and enigmatic.
kinda a anticlimactic, huh?
Oh please Abhi,
Cut out the c**p. We have very good reading comprehension skills, thank you. For example, your own profile admits (or did admit) that you are a left-liberal. Do we really believe that you do not support Obama? Pffft. Besides, SM had a highly fawning post on Obama winning the grueling Democrat contest. That post was removed after realizing it was way too partisan. Also, a search of SM has 497 articles on Obama, 188 articles on McCain. Yeah and SMers don't support Obama and the sky is not blue. Please
I've never met George Allen.
bidens a good pick:
1. has a working class accent and may help with the working class white dem voters who where alienated from him by hillary's divide and conquer strategy
2. forign policy cred
3. his wonderfully insensitive racial comments help distance obama from the invisible knapsack crowd, who are desperately moving goalposts.
Abhi: Of all of the potential 2008 presidential candidates on the Democratic side, Delaware Sen. Joe Biden has been in my top 5 (Gore, Warner, and Edwards being one through three). Biden always comes across as very articulate, often times blunt, and usually seems more knowledgeable about issues across the board than almost any other senator
Biden is a good pick for Obama, particularly because of his labor connections and his ability to appeal to the working-class voters. In terms of net worth, he'd be a great contrast with McCain and any potential Republican VPs. I wonder if Biden's racial gaffes will actually help Obama with the probably large group of voters who are uncomfortable with a non-White candidate.
Why the hell does it matter who I support? Show me where in my post is it relevant?
Wait, are we talking about Abhi or "SM" (as if it was some monolithic entity), I'm already confused by your argument? Would you like to produce this fawning post I wrote endorsing Obama? I would love to see it.
Ummmmm, so I guess that means we are no different than the Washington Post then. Ok, I'll take that company. Maybe its because he gives good quote.
Thanks Bleh you just made me look rather, dare I say, prophetic. My analysis/prediction back in 2006 turned out to be solid huh? Wish I got paid for these skills yo. :)
Hi Abhi,
This is Madhavi. I read your post.this is my first comment on your site. pls meet my site also.
Quaker said
Yes.. speaking of net worth, so now having a high net worth is a bad thing, as opposed to 2004 when the liberals ran a near-Billionaire in John Kerry.
Quaker said
So more of Biden calling Obama "clean" and "well-spoken" can convince people that Obama's not really Tupac Shakur but more like Bill Cosby? Wow. Kinda "I'm a racist and I'm going to vote for him, so you can, too". My head just exploded trying to comprehend that.
Since we are talking about racial slights, allow me a quibble. Why do South Asian Liberals like Mira Nair, Kal Penn and those desis who support Obama label the "Obama is Muslim" a smear? Why hasn't a single Obama supporter stood up and responded, even if he is a Muslim, so what. Is winning the election more important than standing up for what is right?
After all the US constitution affords us Muslims the right to run for the President of the country, as long as we were born here.
To me and to many, many of my co-religionists who are too scared to complain, lest they enrage the liberal too, the silence is nothing but Islamo phobia in disguise.
Do we really believe that you do not support Obama?
Why the hell does it matter who I support? Show me where in my post is it relevant?
Why then do you defend the fact that you do not support Obama so vigorously. It matters as we cannot expect unbiased political coverage. Thats the point
Besides, SM had a highly fawning post on Obama winning the grueling Democrat contest.
Wait, are we talking about Abhi or "SM" (as if it was some monolithic entity), I'm already confused by your argument? Would you like to produce this fawning post I wrote endorsing Obama? I would love to see it.
Umm,its been deleted, how can I produce something that no longer exists,as I made clear. Also I made clear that SM not you had made that deleted post. BTW, Here is the proof
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005230.html
Ummmmm, so I guess that means we are no different than the Washington Post then.
So the fact that all major news media have been horribly biased in their coverage validates your bias
Ok, I'll take that company. Maybe its because he gives good quote.
So does Jay Leno. Does it mean he is qualified to run for Prez
It should read - label the "Obama is Muslim" rumor a smear? and not, label the "Obama is Muslim" a smear?
40 · Zainab M. said
Not to mention his comments on being tested for AIDS.. "i'd rather make clear that I got tested with Michelle".. not you know.. because I'm a homosexual.. i'm mean not that there's anything wrong with that.. but err uhh.. ahhh... not that only homosexuals have AIDS.. because er.. ya know.. HOPE AND CHANGE!!!
43 · bleh said
This is stupid. You are reaching here.
Reaching right... pray tell.. what do you think he meant then?
Desidude please show me an example of a "bias free" blog on the internet that anyone reads. I'll paypal you $5 if you succeed. Blogs were created so that people could share their opinions on topics. If you want to look for bias you will always find it no matter what we write because bias is in the eye of the beholder. Do you think you are the only person who has made this stupid argument in the last 4 years? We get just as much grief from folks on the left. If you want a place where you can "expect unbiased political coverage" why not try a place like FoxNews? I think their tag line is "Fair and Balanced," right? I'm still not sure what your argument is and I don't think you know either. What do you want us to do? Write a post that says "SM loves John McCain." Will you be able to sleep tonight if we do? It's all about you dude so I am willing to help how I can.
To Zainab M: I agree with your post almost completely. I just wanted to point out that Obama has pointed out quite a few times that the Obama-is-Muslim line of attack from conservatives is meant to feed into the Islamo-phobia that drives American, esp. hyper-conservative policy. That does not mean that Obama's campaign has not fallen into the cynical trap of trying to dissociate him and his campaign from Islam... they definitely have... there's the story of the Muslim women being removed from being seated behind Obama, but also if you look at the DNC schedule, there are a million Catholic, other Christian and Jewish religious reps. but only one Imam (and one Buddhist rep.), again I think a cynical response to conservative Islamophobia. Yet, if I had to choose between McCain's "we are at war with evil and evil must be defeated"... well, is that really a choice?
And for the Biden-bashers, I agree that some of his comments can definitely be construed as racist. But if his comments do get broad national-play, it will finally force McCain's racism and misogyny onto the national stage too... finally!
45 · bleh said
he meant he got tested with michelle, not joe...as joe's comment could be contrued. very funny. slightly homophobic, u r right. but isms should have a comedy exception.
SM is *biased* because people are *biased* i've observed the left liberal slant on some posts with amusement. and i do think that how you interpret someone's comments depend on what you think of that person. assertion X by person Y is offensive contingent on the prior facts about person Y, and how those facts relate to yourself (e.g., republicans and conservatives have to be above suspicion to a far greater extent than democrats and liberals for a variety of reasons). but blowing a gasket about this sort of stuff is pointless. you don't have to be a genius to observe that SM's posters and commenters *average* out left of center. but, the fact is that indian americans are on *average* left of center. so big surprise.
if you are right-wing and political congeniality is what you are looking for, SM is not your place. even v-man's posts often bristle with hostility toward his political positions. those of us who are non-liberal hang out here for other reasons. if the liberal politics bothers you that much, you have the right to choose. moaning and groaning just adds noise into the system that isn't ever going to change the equilibrium of the system.
but also if you look at the DNC schedule, there are a million Catholic, other Christian and Jewish religious reps. but only one Imam (and one Buddhist rep.), again I think a cynical response to conservative Islamophobia.
huh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schedule_for_2008_Democratic_National_Convention#Interfaith_gathering
can you show me which schedule you're looking at, cuz it looks like you're wrong. seems that protestants are way underrepresented, while the convention is getting its jew-on.
47 · wonderingwhy2930 said
And for the Biden-bashers, I agree that some of his comments can definitely be construed as racist. But if his comments do get broad national-play, it will finally force McCain's racism and misogyny onto the national stage too... finally!
I doubt any Buddhist would feel slighted. 50% of self identified Buddhists in this country are white liberals, Obama's got them already. There are very few 2nd gen Asian Buddhists, most are in Campus Crusade by the time they reach college. I think his disavowal of Islam is also practical. Why court a socially conservative demographic whose support will vanish once the world returns to relative calm?
I am happy to read the diverse group of opinion on the comment page. But let's keep the opinions civil...dissent is all good...personal attacks....not so good.
careful what u wish 4. mccains racism ("gooks" i assume) will get a POW/torture exception and only yet again highlight his heroism while the misogyny ("cunt") has a as much proof as the Swiftboaters allegations and copuld backfire on obama's non-swiftboating image. you do have an old rape joke, but I wouldn't bank on it as a game changer.
53 · Manju said
I am still having trouble with the quote tool, I was responding to #47 and don't make any mention of McCain's purported racism or mysogyny
50 · razib _the_atheist said
huh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schedule_for_2008_Democratic_National_Convention#Interfaith_gathering
can you show me which schedule you're looking at, cuz it looks like you're wrong. seems that protestants are way underrepresented, while the convention is getting its jew-on.
you're right... i checked the schedule again. sorry about the mis-representation, i wrote the comment based on my memory, or initial impression of the gathering. but the main point i was trying to make was regarding the under-representation of Muslims specifically (and there's actually two reps.) which I read to be a cynical gesture in today's anti-Muslim environment. Of course, my reading could be incorrect... but it is my opinion. Just as I see the over-rep. of rabbis as pandering.
but the main point i was trying to make was regarding the under-representation of Muslims specifically
it looks like religious minorities are way overrepresented. there are only 2 reps for the ~50% of americans who are protestants.
FYI, Guestblogger Ravi will be at the Interfaith gathering to report the facts on the ground :)
I doubt any Buddhist would feel slighted. 50% of self identified Buddhists in this country are white liberals, Obama's got them already. There are very few 2nd gen Asian Buddhists, most are in Campus Crusade by the time they reach college.
i'm pretty sure this isn't true. there are several elite campuses where evangelical xtians are mostly asian american, but most asian americans at those colleges are not evangelical xtians. i'll do some digging and report back.
I'm far more concerned about Russia than I am Al-Qaeda/Pakistan in the future. This latest Georgian catastrophe seemed to create some momentum against Obama (PBUH). Also, I was just day-dreaming the other day about Russia's New Cold War Strategy against the USA. As a background, the US' Cold War I strategy was to bankrupt the Soviets in Afghanistan and on their defense spending. This was successful to the Americans. However, the New Cold War Strategy of the Soviets is to bankrupt the Americans by helping them elect lousy senior officials (i.e. Bush, McCain, etc.) who will help bankrupt our country. The Russians realize the emotional nature of American Heartlanders, and how Heartlanders are impressionable to Fox News. The Russians are also keenly aware of how the Republicans do a very bad job governing, but at the same time, the Russians are creating an atmosphere to help them obtain/retain power.
Barack getting HIV-tested with Michelle is also relevant because they did so to set an example in a part of a country [Kenya] where HIV/AIDS testing is HIGHLY stigmatized. There was an element of distinguishing that he did not get tested WITH Joe Biden, but I think it had much less to do with homophobia than with contextualizing that HIV/AIDS is not a "gay disease."
Anyway, Biden often says dumb and latently racist things, but overall I don't think he's this terrible George Allen-esque racist who actualizes his stupidity through his politics. That said, I think he makes sense as a choice for Obama, independent of the Pakistan-angle (although I agree that his foreign relations experience is probably one of his strongest assets, along with his blunt and "down home" rhetorical style). Biden's an excellent public speaker, and there's no way he could win for President on his own. They're a mutually compatible group.
Barack getting HIV-tested with Michelle is also relevant because they did so to set an example in a part of a country [Kenya] where HIV/AIDS testing is HIGHLY stigmatized.
obama's father is a luo, and they have by far the highest HIV infection rate of kenyan ethnic groups (the causal factor might be that they are the only group which is generally not circumcised, presumably less of an the issue in the obama clan where many members are muslim).
Biden choice shows Obamas poor judgement. As for Biden, he has been very Pro Pakistan and Anti Indian. This should be noted by Indians living in Delaware as they are probably getting ready to start their fundraising. There are more indians living in this country than Pakistanis. So there goes indian votes for this ticket.
from the GSS, chinese, japanese and 'other asian' (so this excludes those with ancestry india, though not other brown countries)
religion now:
1: PROTESTANT 24.5
2: CATHOLIC 9.9
3: JEWISH .5
4: NONE 29.0
5: OTHER (SPECIFY) 1.8
6: BUDDHISM 28.0
7: HINDUISM .3
8: OTHER EASTERN 1.0
9: MOSLEM/ISLAM 3.1
11: CHRISTIAN 1.0
13: INTER-NONDENOMINATIONAL 1.0
N = 176
religion raised:
1: PROTESTANT 12.4
2: CATHOLIC 8.5
3: JEWISH .5
4: NONE 28.8
5: OTHER (SPECIFY) 1.2
6: BUDDHISM 38.8
7: HINDUISM .5
8: OTHER EASTERN 2.9
9: MOSLEM/ISLAM 5.3
11: CHRISTIAN 1.0
N = 163
Wonderingwhy2930 - Please don't use the "conservatives made me do it" excuse.
I fail to see the difference between the right wing's Islamo phobia and the Obama Left wing's Islamo Phobia. In fact, the latter's "smear" response cuts deeper than all the Rush, Cheney, McCain, Pat Robertsons bigoted statements put together, because one doesn't expect to be thrown under the bus by your own.
As a life long Democrat, I would have been prouder had he and his supporters stood for what's right and lost rather than resort to bigotry and win.
In protest, I am not going to vote this election, and I urge all those who think Obama is bigoted against Muslims to do the same.
It could be the Hindus tomorrow.
and I urge all those who think Obama is bigoted against Muslims to do the same
come now. you're obviously a troll ;-)
that being said, republican pandering to racial bigotry (or accommodation of) is in many ways similar to the obama campaign's realistic assessment of anti-muslim sentiment in this country. many republicans who use racially coded language aren't necessarily personally bigots, they just know that that's the way to higher office. so that suggests to me those who criticize republicans shouldn't cut obama slack for his realism on the islam issue (the campaign's removal of a hijabi from a group photo suggests that there's a systematic awareness of this issue).
59 · boston_mahesh said
No, it's oil, promoting autocracy, and getting rich for the Russians. America is obviously promoting democracy, and Russia and the other autocratic regimes (like China) don't like that. Russia is just telling the U.S. "Stay the f*** out of our business." McCain is going to listen to this guy Robert Kagan, who wrote the End of History, and that's why we see this democratization process throughout the world. Here's the best analysis I read by Dick Morris.
http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/2008/08/20/russia-and-georgia-the-real-story/#more-409
27 · Abhi said
o He picked Biden because he will make Obama look good. It is no wonder then that he introduced Biden as the next president. Stupid pick after all this drama. What is Biden bringing to the ticket other than his big mouth? Clinton would have brought her supporters in. She would have done everything Biden can do, only better.Having watched the speeches on CNN, I have to say Sepia Mutiny is presenting an equal representation of both conservative and liberal sides of the political campaigns. The editors and moderators serve an important role in allowing this special South Asian prism of the political dialogue in America to exist.
Thanks!
Razib - The only reason you are calling me a troll is because you can not a fathom a Muslim female speaking out against Obama, right?
I know there are many Muslims, including some in my family, who naively believe that, Obama is doing what he has to do in order to win. But I am not one of them.
And you must know this too that, there are Muslims who believe that he is a Muslim and will always remain a Muslim, solely because his father was a Muslim. I am not one of them either.
Kai Bidya, kasa kai?
Kai Bidya, sagLa Theek?
There are other things he could say, but I doubt he would be familiar enough with Biden to use them.
The only reason you are calling me a troll is because you can not a fathom a Muslim female speaking out against Obama, right?
touche! that's a really sweet troll move, i've done it myself when i've trolled-for-fun. but yeah, you might be genuine. *shrug* but it's kind of like the hillary dead-enders; some of them are real for sure, but deeper digging often shows that they're just republican trolls.
p.s. just in case people don't know, i am myself right-leaning.
67 · Rahul S said
that's fukiyama who wrote the end of history, ie that liberal democratic capitalism is the endgame of hegels dialectic. there are no serious ideological competitors left. nations will inevitably liberalize.
kagan, i'm guessing now b/c i haven't actually read him, replied to this by saying we'll return to history: to nationalism, religion, tribalism, etc...the original causes of great conflicts and conquests. ergo, the rise radical islam, china, and now mother russia...the last two attempting to merge econimic liberalism with autocracy.
now, how kagan believes we should respond to this i'm not sure. remember, america's neo-colonialism was originally a liberal interventionist creation...think of MAD and containment, paul nitzche and harry truman. republicans where followers,their isolationism "discredited" by wwII and eventually they embraced the notion of communism representing a unique threat that normal autocratic regimes did not. Jeane Kirkpatrick famously made the point.
but now commuinism is dead and russia is just antocracy. but only pat buchanan seems to represent this wing of the republican party, while the dems have been liberal interventionists like clinton, getting involved in old world conflicts.
obama has a chance at revivng an old doctrine now.
I think Biden is a good pick but I am already tired of hearing about his 'working' class roots.
but only pat buchanan seems to represent this wing of the republican party, while the dems have been liberal interventionists like clinton, getting involved in old world conflicts.
i doubt foreign policy is strongly ideologically driven now; rather, it's partisan. republicans strongly opposed clintonian interventions, and dems tepidly supported them. now that it is bush the situation is inverted. the exceptions to the rule are the isolations on the left and right, and the neocons, who were supportive of clinton. most people don't care in any deep sense.
73 · Manju said
My bad the End of History and Return of Dreams (something like that). Plus, another Cold War will start if Obambi or McCain tell other countries in eastern europe to become democracies and join NATO. Buchanan and Sowell are right, leave those countries alone. They're "tiny countries" and not worth the trouble.
Plus, another Cold War will start if Obambi or McCain tell other countries in eastern europe to become democracies and join NATO.
which eastern european countries aren't democracies??? (unless you count the CIS as eastern europe) and three of 'em have already joined NATO.
anyway, yeah, i think expanding NATO to including EVERYONE is totally stupid. we already have the UN. NATO is the serious deal, let's not dilute it.
kagan, i'm guessing now b/c i haven't actually read him, replied to this by saying we'll return to history: to nationalism, religion, tribalism, etc...the original causes of great conflicts and conquests. ergo, the rise radical islam, china, and now mother russia...the last two attempting to merge econimic liberalism with autocracy.
And identity politics! The End of History also meant European values=universal values. No more, no more ...
78 · rizible said
And identity politics! The End of History also meant European values=universal values. No more, no more ...
Naw. Not Euro values. The End of History is the emergence of hegemonies (China, potentially Iran, Russia, and other rogue regimes). Plus, it ultimately means there is one superpower, and many great powers.
*sigh* Let me try to explain it to you. Having a high net worth isn't a bad thing. When you're running for President, having a high net worth and not being able to understand the financial difficulties of the median American voter is a bad thing. John McCain is getting bashed day in and day out over this exact issue. The introduction of a VP candidate who can act as a financial foil to John McCain has the potential to woo voters who find McCain's understanding of the economic difficulties of the middle class to be questionable.
Whether or not this is rational is another point altogether. The fact is that it might indeed attract votes. I hope that was clear enough for you.
Now that's absurd. Where did you get an idea like that?
80 · Quaker said
McCain in the finest tradition of desidom and humanity in general is using his family's wealth to take care of his family. Some of those houses are for his mom, his children, etc. Whereas Obama can lecture down on and say that America's greatest moral failure is to forget about her downtrodden while his own brother lives in fetid squalor. Yea I think Americans understand the difference between taking care of your own and rank hypocrisy of a unrepentant socialist.
bleh, that's not a good talking point.
1) his paternal grandfather had 3 wives, his father had 4 (at least known). so if he was going to use that logic he'd get broke really quickly since he has so many siblings and extended family
2) the mccain money is at least 1 order of magnitude greater than obama's; which is of relatively recent vintage (most of the marginal surplus are due to his books)
3) as a point of fact cindy mccain's older sister (from first marriage with a wife that cindy's dad dumped for her mom) got $10,000 from her father's estate, and lives in modest middle class comfort, despite the fact that her sister has access for a fortune on the order of $100 million.
McCain's a real family man. Consider his maverick move of dumping his cancer stricken wife who had waited on him while he was a POW for Cindy.
hmmm...
Mutation ?
Let me remind everyone that this post is about the pros and cons of Biden as a VP candidate and more specifically his knowledge of South Asia in general and Pakistan in specific. If you guys want to get into a food fight about whether Dems are better than Republicans or vice versa or whose dick is bigger please take it elsewhere. There are lots of political websites like DailyKos, RedState.com etc where your bombastic comments would be more appropriate. At SM we try to maintain a higher level of discourse by means of stricter moderation whenever possible. This makes the reading more enjoyable for the vast majority of readers.
Thanks.
bleh, at the risk of sounding pedantic, i think you missed the point.
the money isn't the issue at play. mccain doesn't appear to have an understanding of the financial difficulties faced by the american middle class, and biden's low net worth would enable the democrats to capitalize on the financial difference between the two campaigns. essentially, the obama campaign could use biden to make mccain look like an out-of-touch elitist, much like the republicans did with kerry in '04.
a word of warning: you would have a tough time arguing that obama is an "unrepentant socialist." even some of us conservative economists will admit that his economic logic is far better than that of mccain. he demonstrated time and time again that he gets concepts like ricardian equivalence or the congruence between a pigovian tax on carbon emissions and a 100% auction of carbon credits. while he's certainly not even close to perfect, he has been more open to economic ideas than mccain.
(just fyi, i wasn't trying to support mccain or obama. i was simply pointing out the obvious, that biden provides new opportunities for the obama campaign to explore. peace.)
I think Biden suggested investing in education in Pakistan to combat rising extremism. While that's a good long-term solution, that'll take at least a generation to have an effect. Does anyone know if he's suggested/supports any short-term measures? I did a quick google search and didn't come up with much. This is particularly important because of the US-India nuclear deal and the repercussions it could create in Pakistan.
Quaker,
Have you seen the price of Arugula at the Whole Foods recently? hoo boy...
And you know it's hard to raise a family with piano and dance lessons for the kids on an income north of $1 million dollars, ain't it?
Give me break.
Bleh, leave some original thoughts not recycled talking points.
I'm very happy about the pick. Personally, I thought the dunkin donut thing was so ridiculously overblown.
His weakeness for "verbal gaffes" is also one of his greatest strengths-- sincerity. He's stuck his foot in his mouth more than once, and he's bound to do it again, but he's also much more brave and honest than everyone else.
I'll take courage and honesty over glossy and camera-ready PC any day.
87 · Quaker said
What type of education? It probably went to the madrassas.
*It probably would go to the madrassas.* Typo
I don't think this is a weakness actually. I think he'll be portrayed as a White less-than-really-wealthy guy who says some stupid stuff about race and stuff but isn't really malintentioned (unlike, say, Karl Rove or Dick Cheney) - which will reassure White voters and especially White working class voters on the negative side that Obama is a "good" Black person and on the positive side that the Democratic party might move away from policing people's speech and instead focus on what they're trying to say.
Thanks for highlighting Biden's specialization on Pakistan...I didn't know this actually. The trouble for those of us who are not interested in the interests of the U.S. elite (South Asians included) or finance capital is that Biden may bring information and an informed perspective to generate better policies (like funding nonmilitary aid, which if he could accomplish would be worthwhile whatever his other flaws..like supporting Bankruptcy "reform" that now damages millions of Americans).
But the foreign policy won't be driven in the interests of the people of Pakistan, even if it is more informed. For example, Ayesha Jalal highlighted how American-British rivalry played a role in Pakistan's development from the very beginning as a military-dominated state. Which is to say, I'm going to Chapati Mystery to see if he has anything to say about this to find out more. Are there any other people who others can recommend to find out what ordinary Pakistanis (i..e not the political elite) are wanting/expecting from U.S. foreign policy? I'm curious what they would have to say about Biden if his foreign policy chops on Pakistan are as extensive as you're saying.
86 · Quaker said
a word of warning: you would have a tough time arguing that obama is an "unrepentant socialist." even some of us conservative economists will admit that his economic logic is far better than that of mccain. he demonstrated time and time again that he gets concepts like ricardian equivalence or the congruence between a pigovian tax on carbon emissions and a 100% auction of carbon credits. while he's certainly not even close to perfect, he has been more open to economic ideas than mccain.
...
Great Economic ideas?
1. Windfall taxes on Oil companies? Why not Windfall taxes on Big Agro's profits snce food prices have increased so much? Oh but Obambi is from Illinois a farm state
2. Pandering to protectionist sentiments in Ohio?
3. Cap and Trade? Oh puhleeze. Auctioning 100% of the permits will do f-ck all for the environment because the shit hits the fan Congress will increase the permits like Germany and others. If he really wants to do something to reduce the carbon footprint then why not just implement a straight up carbon tax
Both candidate's economic policies leave a lot to be desired. But there is a trust gap wrt to Obama a gap which is bigger than that for McCain.
Anyways Barr for President.
This makes me happy as they shouldn't have what they want any more than a child should have lighter fluid and matches. My extended family does not live in some hypothetical South Asian ether, they live in India.
That cracks me up big time too, how anyone could mistake a guy whose inner circle is U of Chicago econ for a socialist is beyond me. Makes them sound like McCarthyite who won't go bowling because sharing shoes is too collectivist
95 · louiecypher said
This makes me happy as they shouldn't have what they want any more than a child should have lighter fluid and matches. My extended family does not live in some hypothetical South Asian ether, they live in India.
Presumably the ordinary people who live in Pakistan have some shared interests with the ordinary people who live in India - namely avoiding a nuclear war, higher standards of living (i.e. not facing the threat of starving to death), and greater say over their daily economic political, and social lives. These things are undermined by U.S. foreign policy - that was more what I was getting at, not how the elites of Pakistan and the elites of India can argue against each other in order to promote the military industry, hold down their own people, and potentially blow each other to kingdome come at somepoint ;)
Anyway, if you're family is in the 10 million or so people that constitute the "middle class" or the uberrich in India, then they're going to have more things to worry about in the next 20 years than Pakistan - like Maoists. have fun!
DrAmnonymous: Thanks for your concern about my family, they'll do just fine given that they've come from difficult circumstances. I would be more worried about yours. When your revolution happens the Maoists may not have use for more than one manifesto writer. Definitely get lasik, specs make you stick out like a sore thumb
Pagal_Aadmi@74....
Yup, I want to hear more about the great grandfather who was a Pa state senator and what happened next.
I just learned the text message announcing his VP choice went out at 3am.
Heh, Heh, Heh.
98 · louiecypher said
Glad to hear, despite the snark. My family's pretty screwed. They were in the 60s/70s, and they probably will be again--and the worst part for me is that the people revolting won't be unjustified, which makes me and every other observer of India who is paying close attention really sad. And it also raises the prospect of fascism or a military coup to quell 'social disorder' or whatever they decide to call it this time.
the revolution's already started - the Indian government doesn't control 15-20% of the territory of the Indian state, and that was before the inflation on fuel/food and the wider context of the global economic slowdown.
Very aptly put. Quite a comic relief - much needed - going through the comments.
75 · razib _the_atheist said
i doubt foreign policy is strongly ideologically driven now; rather, it's partisan. republicans strongly opposed clintonian interventions, and dems tepidly supported them. now that it is bush the situation is inverted. the exceptions to the rule are the isolations on the left and right, and the neocons, who were supportive of clinton. most people don't care in any deep sense.
Really? I have the opposite imperssion - which is that the bipartisan post wwii consensus has broken down and the ideological split between neocons and realists is the more relevant one. I think most liberal internationalists as a result of the Iraq misadventure are now firmly in the realist camp (hence the emphasis on soft power). I agree that most people don't care in any deep sense.
While Biden may round out the ticket with foreign policy experience, in terms of the election, I don't think it adds much value by bringing in any more votes for Obama. Foreign policy can be balanced out by a good cabine