a clubs

Queue behavior varies depending on setting(bus/train/cinema/temple) and location in India. Some cities e.g. madras are better than others.
Queuing = More trust seems intutitve, but doesn't hold up with my real life experience. Sometimes it is the result of enforced discipline,
than offshoot of natural trust.

I stood in a line once at the post office to pay a phonebill in a town in Punjab. There was a neat line when I showed up. Maybe ten dudes. I got in line. It built up quickly from there. And then started the spooning. To me that was worse than elbowing your way to the front, maybe cuz I am big enough to do that, but be felt up by the guy behind you until your turn comes requires a level of patience that I dont possess. At one point I turned around and told the guy behind to quit humpin me and he looked incredulous rather than sheepish.

So, trust/shmust. Jus don hump me.

1 · grammar nazi said

a clubs

cough ! cough!

I so agree with the grammar nazi. I have lived in india for 11 years been to all the major cities and never once experienced a UFC match to reach the ticket window.

on the contrary, try jumping the queue in any place in mumbai and you would definitely get beaten up (verbally at least!).

The simpler and more obvious reason is resource crunch. Train tickets may not be about to run out (actually, seats do run out!) but that ticket queue is not the first queue ever for anyone in there. Habits are difficult to lose and anyway entropy has a tendency of increasing.

orderly queueing is a sign of interpersonal trust.

Yeah, those Russians nicely queued up for utter crap in Soviet "stores" the 1970's, I miss those days, damn!
;-)

i had faced such queues few years (both in north & south) ago not any more because there are many ticket counters in various parts of the city and you can buy tickets online in major cities.

Personally speaking, I have found the unwillingness to form queues more pronounced in small towns in India. These towns are usually those which are transitioning between village & city statuses. The general attitude there is - We never formed queues then, why should we now? And in towns which are still villages at heart, queues are an unknown concept.

In big cities like Mumbai, people reached the conclusion long ago that queueing up to get work done is faster, less tiring & far more efficient than trying to claw your way into & out of a crowd.

I so agree with the grammar nazi. I have lived in india for 11 years been to all the major cities and never once experienced a UFC match to reach the ticket window.

on the contrary, try jumping the queue in any place in mumbai and you would definitely get beaten up (verbally at least!).

I had the same experience in Delhi. I found the queue was pretty self-regulating, actually, probably because every person places an enormous amount of importance on getting a ticket, and so as long as there was some sense of social order, things didn't break down. On the other hand, trying to get into a venue in London, I had the opposite experience, as the queue broke down and turned into a mob. I think external and internal queue management is one of the more singificant factors.

1) There's research suggesting an inverse relationship between contracts and interpersonal trust.
2) The US has a culture of written contracts for everything, including prenuptials.

Ergo?
This is sometimes explained by saying the contract culture means interpersonal trust is declining in the US from some mythical high a few decades ago. But that hasn't had any impact on the orderliness of queues. So it has declined, but not enough to impact queues. Since no can can actually measure interpersonal trust, there's always wiggle room. If you have a hammer, you can keep on seeing everything as a nail, and never be caught.

Or consider why queues are harder to find in Indian villages and really small towns(gen. I've found them quite orderly in midsized towns). Sure people know each other better in smaller towns, leading to more trust? I am sure there's a perfectly untestable explanation for that as well.

well said, sakshi!

i am sure vinod's hypothesis - derived, of course, from the broader research of liebniz, isaac newton, and why, even, milton friedman, shows that if you plot the interpersonal trust contour in india, it reaches its maximum in mumbai with local minima in jabalpur, bhilai, and eekaatuthaangal. queue size, as is well known, is a monotonically decreasing function of interpersonal trust except when the trust value is between 5.176 and 17.357, where the queue size stabilizes to exactly 297.346 + (e-2).

I agree with most commenters here - queues are fairly orderly in most Indian cities, it's just that they can get really long and winding because of the sheer number of people. Though I would add that they work better when they are self-regulating rather than when you've got someone trying to maintain order, like a policeman. Then it becomes a case of who the cop identifies with and choses to favour. I think most Indians still have a 'I will tell the teacher' mentality, where if there's any figure of authority around they chose to suck up/complain to them and let them sort things out and crib if they don't get it right.

I'm in two minds about the queue and inter-personal trust equation. For I have seen lines formed in India (though leaving two steps from the guy in front isn't quite the norm there) and I have seen blond people cut in lines right here in Amsterdam. (They took the space I had left, as a vacant slot for themselves)

(This, at just the nationalities/cultures face value. It could be that inter-personal trust here isn't all that high either.)

I didn't see a list or worst offenders. Because if there was one, USA would be at the very very bottom of the list. And many er developed countries (i.e European ones) would be near the top.
I think there is a correlation between ability to form lines and driving. In countries like France, Italy and Spain where they are aggressive in lines (or what should be lines), they also don't know how to wait their turn at lights, at pedestrian crossings etc...
And the many Arab and African immigrants are at least as bad and so these countries don't really have anyone to show them by example.

The queue culture is completely alien to India as it is to Morocco. The reason then they may have lines at all is a function of population. Someone mentioned getting beaten up. Yeah, that will happen when there are enough people who are annoyed. And in the hot sun tempers rise. There is a Darwinian struggle for nearly everything in India. And they've found out that better lines than a stampede.

The last time I was in India I was in line at the bank with my mother. The BANK. If there's anything sacred in the States it's the ATM line, right? You don't look over anyone's shoulder. OR STAND NEXT TO THEM. Yes, yes, this actually happened. My mom said that (at least at this particular bank that she'd been going to since she was a child), the person second in line was always right next to the person being helped/using the machine. That way, she explained to me as if I were some firangi, he or she could just slide into place.

That said, the line outside the Siddhivinayak temple in Mumbs is pretty orderly. That might be because of the bomb squad looking for coconuts, though.

This topic is worthy of a well-designed sociology experiment. Queue formation requires not just trust but fear... fear of being embarrassed for cutting someone off and fear of being denied service for rude behavior. I suspect those well-behaved Soviet queues for bread/groceries were built more on fear.

Queue formation also depends on cues. Partially cordoned off enclosures common in US train people to form queues... as do those "now serving" ticket trackers. For sure, queuing rules are in some part unique to each culture's zeitgeist, but some simple techniques could formulated to impose a semblance or orderliness.

Nice topic.

tricks for getting through security a littler faster

Do they tell you how not to be selected for random screening each time?

As for lines, lines at Temples etc seem to be very orderly. Far more so than some of the lines I've stood in the USA.

Vinod - if you're right, self enforcement would be encouraged on line. For example, it would be fine to throw a real elbow, like playing basketball. However, there's an art to it. Subtle shoving is OK, but you can't escalate. I once got mad at somebody who was trying to shove in while I was at a ticket window of a train, and got scolded. Indian queing is like boston driving, it has its own rules, they're just not the official ones.

Having lived in America all my life, I can say that I feel personally enraged when the socially accepted norms of "politely standing in line" are transgressed here at home.

Still, when I have visited the sub. something about that Darwinian struggle to get ahead in line is liberating.

There was an interesting story on NPR the other day, though relating to traffic....and the efficiency of movement. In this example a 2 to 1 lane merge was the subject. The study found that traffic moved faster and smoother if cars in the "closed" lane drove all the way to the closure and merged at the last second (something that annoys many in the line). This study also found that when all traffic "lined up" in the single working lane, traffic was much more congested and took much longer to clear the merge zone than the "end run" method.

So, perhaps there is something to be said for a slight mob rather than an orderly line?

The chaos and indiscipline that is so characteristic of India is a consequence of weak to non-existent law enforcement.

2 · baingandabhartha said

And then started the spooning. To me that was worse than elbowing your way to the front, maybe cuz I am big enough to do that, but be felt up by the guy behind you until your turn comes requires a level of patience that I dont possess. At one point I turned around and told the guy behind to quit humpin me and he looked incredulous rather than sheepish.

So, trust/shmust. Jus don hump me.

My experience too!!! Thank god they have separate lines for women.

I've noticed the quote feature doesn't seem to work any more. I think it's because of this special quote button which wasn't there a year or so ago.

Since we seem to be all for untestable but interesting-sounding hypotheses today, let me add mine in the mix. IMNSHO, this is what is wrong with some of social science research methods - correlation is often misconstrued as causality and Occam's razor is completely discarded because it would dispassionately cut off the very part that makes good copy! And in the teaspoon-of-anecdotal-data-moment-of-half-baked-analysis-truckloads-of-conclusions world of blog-logic this is made into an art form!

Its getting better in cities like Mumbai, you can't jump a line there I just saw last month I was visiting. But in smaller cities, its a fight. Not just at the places mentioned above, I saw tremendous amount of unnecesary fight and attitude and verbal abuse at the train stations too. To get on a train, these people will push you, you can bruise yourself hitting one of the poles in the train. I dont what was it though, that they dont trust the train won't take the public in and start running, leaving them behind? There's just so much crowd in Mumbai trains that may be just they fight to get in the train at least. ROFLOL at similar things happening at some Indian weddings ka buffet. lol. no interpersonal trust with people ur own family, caste. LOL

Indians are bad, I definitely place us in the same category as other (non-Japanese) Asians & Southern Europeans. But I will say that Indians take it to an extreme, many seem to think if any sunlight can pass between any two people in the queue a hobbit or el greco type ectomorph queue jumper might squeeze in. Brokeback queue...

As someone pointed out, women's lines tend to be more orderly than men's lines, although heaven knows there are enough of them trying to squeeze in too. But they're not aggressive about it - they just sort of inch closer and closer, until it looks like they've been there all along. At that point, if you were to try and pick and fight, the interloper finds many supporters.

In mixed lines, I find that women can control the 'tone' of the line much better than men, because no one wants to pick a fight with a woman. A well placed nudge or tap on the shoulder or glare or frosty "Excuse Me?!?" works pretty well. In Mumbai airport, I got a man who was three times my size and age to sheepishly slink back not just back into line, but back into HIS place in line. Everyone gave me appreciative grins :)

17 · Ennis said

As for lines, lines at Temples etc seem to be very orderly. Far more so than some of the lines I've stood in the USA.

While the absence of trust is a strong factor, one has to consider shortages as the primary motivator( even of lack of trust).

How many times have you stood in a movie ticket line in India and never made it to the ticket window due to "House Full" (because the theater starts selling in black)? How many times have you stood in the "ration" line for sugar/kerosene only to find out midway that the store has run out of them (because the store owner starts selling in black)?

>>buffet lines at Indian weddings

This is more of a carry over from the days where the people had to face shortages and also carry a genetic history of facing hunger due to excessive taxation. You can see many uncles and aunties in the buffet queue piling up their plate with samosas, and in the end, half of those will be uneaten and will be surreptitiously thrown into the garbage. While the folks in the back of the line will be lucky to get even one samosa. Hence the unruly behaviour in lines.

In India, they have follow a millennia old tactic (cloaked under "culture") - in functions, food is served. Which means everyone gets two samosas in the first round. Those who want more have to wait till the serving comes around again, almost guarateening that everyone gets at least two, and only those who really really need more get it. You don't see unruly behaviour in that situation.

Goes to show that the methods of distribution should vary according to the historical baggage of the populace. In trains, they have started eliminating lines by having kiosks whereby you can buy tickets using your cellphone. There's hardly any lines there. Movie theaters have started internet booking. Airports have started express checking for frequent travellers. etc etc

M. Nam

28 · MoorNam said

hunger due to excessive taxation

Bwahahahaha! You're out of your mind AND "out of line."

guarateening that...those who really really need more get it

To each according to his need? What?

Your libertarian Marxism is confusing me.

28 · MoorNam said

Goes to show that the methods of distribution should vary according to the...

You didn't say "marketplace." Bad MoorNam!

I've stood in many lines in Chennai. I've found them generally quite orderly, until you get right up to the window -- then you often have to stick your elbows out, because one guy will suddenly appear with his paper ready, just poised to slip it in in front of yours. But I glare at him, move my own paper forward meaningfully, and he falls back. Not bad at all. There is a tendency for the line to get more and more compressed as it moves forward, but that's the personal space thing. You can't do much about that.

Britain could with some justification be considered the inventor of the queue. The American expression "Are you in line?" would not make much sense there. During my 20 years in England the queue-breaker or jumper seemed to invite the immediate wrath of the English. Most people knew better than to invite it.

I think we should be allowed to shoot the line breakers.

Since we seem to be all for untestable but interesting-sounding hypotheses today, let me add mine in the mix. IMNSHO, this is what is wrong with some of social science research methods - correlation is often misconstrued as causality and Occam's razor is completely discarded because it would dispassionately cut off the very part that makes good copy! And in the teaspoon-of-anecdotal-data-moment-of-half-baked-analysis-truckloads-of-conclusions world of blog-logic this is made into an art form!

Social science experiments are only used in editorials/blogs, etc., just to give a scientific polish to something one pulls out of one's ass. Take this recent column by David Brooks, about the collectivist Chinese vs the individualist Americans. Quote:

If you show an American an image of a fish tank, the American will usually describe the biggest fish in the tank and what it is doing. If you ask a Chinese person to describe a fish tank, the Chinese will usually describe the context in which the fish swim.

Makes sense, right? We knew this all along. Except Mark Leiberman at UPenn was the only guy who actually read the original paper, and found that the Americans describe the focal fish less often:

But first of all, it wasn't a representative sample of Americans, it was undergraduates in a psychology course at the University of Michigan; and second, it wasn't Chinese, it was undergraduates in a psychology course at Kyoto University in Japan; and third, it wasn't a fish tank, it was 10 20-second animated vignettes of underwater scenes; and fourth, the Americans didn't mention the "focal fish" more often than the Japanese, they mentioned them less often.

So, have I changed everyone's mind here? We just scientifically proved that Americans are more collectivist? QED. Game set match. Those guys should get a Nobel.

But of course not. You can find tonnes of methodological problems with the experiment, if you set your heart to it: you always can. That is the nature of social science research. Even science recognizes the importance of replication of experiments. People have created life in scientific experiments: only its never been replicated, so it is considered worthless. But social science papers with little or no replication are regularly quoted in newspapers, blogs, etc, as gospel. Except of course when the result doesn't fit the author's preconceived biases.

aah - lines (or rather queues - as we called them)

Well, I recall them everywhere - we formed orderly lines all right - but had to carefully guard against "parasites" - those who would stop to chat up a friend towards the front of the line and as the line moved, would gracefully sneak into the line. The "spooning" baingandabharta observed is a response to that. In fact if you're not "spoonong" the dude in front of you, the dude behind you will suspect that you plan to let in a friend and may even be continuously shoving you because of that!

Low levels of interpersonal trust?
I think its got more to do with lack of respect for other people. Lack of education and plain old selfishness also play a major role.
Sorry no links to scientific research.

Sorry no links to scientific research.

That's not possible, Manju.
sakshi's law: For every cultural or medical generalization, there exists at least one study where the data can be interpreted in such a way as to support it.

"sakshi's law"
Link please? ;)

"sakshi's law" Link please? ;)

Here.

37 · sakshi said

That's not possible, Manju.

Sakhsi: I never log onto Sepia Mutiny wihout a J handy.

Been breezing through this so perhaps I missed this somewhere but anyone ever addressed the desi jumping the line while not in India?
Pure irony but while leaving the US Citizenship ceremony last year, a person of Indian heritage - also a brand new American like me, with Flag in hand - cut in front of several of us queuing up in front of the elevator to leave the building. His wife actually elbowed me out of the way just as I was about to step on to the elevator. Yah, the struggle continues.

That's not possible, Manju.

Sakhsi: I never log onto Sepia Mutiny wihout a J handy.

J=journal? Not sure.
Anyway, I like you, Manju. You make your generalizations like a man, not hiding behind Shikhandi-like citations.

Not against Vinod either, btw. Anyway, gotta go now.

42 · sakshi said

J=journal? Not sure.

I'm just saying Manju without a J is like Mary without Jane.

J=journal? Not sure.

I'm just saying Manju without a J is like Mary without Jane.

Oh, I am so sorry. I get it. Pre-existing bias, what can I say ;) .

"sakshi's law" Link please? ;) Here.

My gora boss went to India a few years ago and commented on how everytime the the railroad crossing arms went down on the road crossing, both sides would not form a line. On both sides, the traffic would fall into oncoming lane and it would take more time to sort it all out than if they'd stay in their lanes. He joked about it and asked me if this happened in my native Pakistan (it does) as well.

Try getting off the Delhi Metro...not only is everyone else trying to get off along with you, but you have to push against all the people trying to get in at the same time. It's the only blemish on what is otherwise an impressive subway system. And really it's not a the system that's the problem, it's the culture of the passengers.

41 · WalkedOn said

Been breezing through this so perhaps I missed this somewhere but anyone ever addressed the desi jumping the line while not in India? Pure irony but while leaving the US Citizenship ceremony last year, a person of Indian heritage - also a brand new American like me, with Flag in hand - cut in front of several of us queuing up in front of the elevator to leave the building. His wife actually elbowed me out of the way just as I was about to step on to the elevator. Yah, the struggle continues.

This is rational behavior on her part. I am told there are no accurate models for multistrand elevator cable fracture mechanics and that this evades even the lift savants at Otis. So it is better to be on the Nth trip instead of the N+1 trip. Unless of course she body checked you to get on what turned out to be N+1 and dove headfirst out of this mortal coil and straight into Yama's noose

A book on this topic; Games Indians play.

Shopping at the grocery store right before Onam in Kerala - horrible, horrible! I could not get over how chaotic the "lines" were - there was no beginning, just winded around columns of food into an ameoba shaped jam around the cash registers!

Partially this is because the grocery store is too small for the amount of people who come there to shop - but I'd imagine the larger part is culture. People aren't even angry about this - no real angry pushes --- they talk sweetly as they slip, slyly push and prod in front of you. I get so angry about that...just thinking about it makes my blood pressure go up.

My gora boss went to India a few years ago and commented on how everytime the the railroad crossing arms went down on the road crossing, both sides would not form a line. On both sides, the traffic would fall into oncoming lane and it would take more time to sort it all out than if they'd stay in their lanes.

He probably concluded that Indians are a stupid and hopeless people. Most foreign visitors to India are shocked not only by the filth, poverty and crowds but also by the chaotic craziness on the roads, railways and bazaars. There is no doubt that there are many fundamental flaws in desi culture.

Partially this is because the grocery store is too small for the amount of people who come there to shop - but I'd imagine the larger part is culture.

There is no doubt that there are many fundamental flaws in desi culture.

And really it's not a the system that's the problem, it's the culture of the passengers.

So you have a resource, and more people want to access it than it's equipped to serve. People get used to that, and this is explained as "culture" (i.e. I can't be bothered to try to understand or explain this, so I'm going to give an essentialized explanation without any backup ;) When it happens in Japan with people being pushed onto the train or in London at rush hour when British passiveaggressiveness gives way to aggressiveaggressiveness or in New York, is that culture as well? Deepseated tendencies of the people of the place explained through bizarre and overly complicated mechanisms? People are complicated, but not that complicated.

When it happens in Japan with people being pushed onto the train or in London at rush hour when British passiveaggressiveness gives way to aggressiveaggressiveness or in New York, is that culture as well? Deepseated tendencies of the people of the place explained through bizarre and overly complicated mechanisms? People are complicated, but not that complicated.

Is it rush hour in New York City? I sense a disturbance in the trust-force.

And then started the spooning. To me that was worse than elbowing your way to the front, maybe cuz I am big enough to do that, but be felt up by the guy behind you until your turn comes requires a level of patience that I dont possess. At one point I turned around and told the guy behind to quit humpin me and he looked incredulous rather than sheepish.

So, trust/shmust. Jus don hump me.

My experience too!!! Thank god they have separate lines for women.

Yeah but those ladeezh only lines soon morph into mixed gender lines and spoon fed feel ups after about, oh, 6:00 AM.

In mixed lines, I find that women can control the 'tone' of the line much better than men, because no one wants to pick a fight with a woman

No, they just want to rub up against us.

Try getting off the Delhi Metro...not only is everyone else trying to get off along with you, but you have to push against all the people trying to get in at the same time

The men look forward to that.

Crowded train stations in India are something that we women never look forward to. Never.