Tokenism with some nice traps. Dem's need to attack with precision. On creationism, she delivered this gem: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information."

You're so close to triumphing. I experienced my own personal family political triumph last night when my Republican dad told me he was voting for Obama. Awesome.

I can’t vote for McCain now…I don’t want that woman in the white house. Maybe he likes having the young girls around, who knows.

Palin is hot - soccer mom, MILF type hot. She might help McCain get some votes from 18 year old guys (cuts into Obama's base). I would hit that if I was 18, but I'm 22, so no.

Just saw her speech and she's defintely no Hillary. It will be interesting to see how the PUMAs react to her

>>Maybe he likes having the young girls around, who knows.

Are you sure she doesn't have McCain mixed up with Spitzer? Or Clinton? Or Edwards?

M. Nam

5 · MoorNam said

Are you sure she doesn't have McCain mixed up with Spitzer? Or Clinton? Or Edwards?

Like I said, she was flummoxed. ;)

Palin's big oil and gas all the way.

And maybe you should tell her that she is married with five children, the first of who is going to Iraq soon on military duty, and the last one who has down's syndrome. That'll change her mind about the "young girl" image...

M. Nam

Why is everyone tripping over themselves calling Palin HOT? She is definitely not hot, and is kinda scary looking. BrownChamp must need new eyeglasses prescription or has pathetically low standards.

And maybe you should tell her that she is married with five children, the first of who is going to Iraq soon on military duty, and the last one who has down's syndrome.

Her decision not to have an abortion will definitely be viewed as courageous, but the vast majority of women (my guess) will probably not make the same decision and will view her as being out of the mainstream and extremist.

BrownChamp must need new eyeglasses prescription or has pathetically low standards.

she's more attractive than other female politicans in this country:

nancy pelosi = old
hillary = no
kathleen sebilus = no and old
claire mccaskil = no
kate hutchison = no
janet napolitano = no and old, a bit manly
condi rice = no
.
.

Sarah Palin: The creationist who wants to drill in ANWR becomes first VPILF hopeful

Here is more fun http://vpilf.com/.

She spoke at length about her first son, got through her three daughters' names as quickly as possible, spoke more about her last son, then invoked Hillary and 18,000,000 cracks in the glass ceiling.

'nuff said?

9 · prafool said

Why is everyone tripping over themselves calling Palin HOT? She is definitely not hot, and is kinda scary looking. BrownChamp must need new eyeglasses prescription or has pathetically low standards

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Palin is definitely hot and much much hotter than the old hag Hillary.

hilarious Anna!
What is with South Asian old women?
I have a aunt who is a PUMA ,have to check what she thinks about the VP pick.

We all knew McCain had a gambling problem! But this is something else!

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Palin is definitely hot and much much hotter than the old hag Hillary

yeah, you're bi/lesbian?....vicky cristina barcelona? =)

Here is more fun http://vpilf.com/.

woah! she looked really good when she was younger. her MILF/soccer mom looks might not be enough to sway my vote to McCain. it should about the issues, right?

I agree with TheBrownChamp #4
No pundit will bring it up though.
McCain is playing the MILF card on guys.
The more I look at it ,the more I like this guy's choices.(Cindy Hensley,Vicky Iseman,Sarah Palin )

I'm going home in a week, and I can't wait to have a conversation like this with my parents-- we can't have them over the phone because they always end up going on for hours and circling back to my parents getting to meet Bill Clinton back in 1992. Eye rolling is better transmitted in person. ;)

The only thing that really bothers me about this (purely from an entertainment perspective) is that Joe Biden will not get to be the crazy-a$$ bulldog we all know he can be when he gets fired up. If he does that in a debate against Palin, it would not go over very well for him.

16 · Vicky Cristina Barcelona said

Palin is definitely hot and much much hotter than the old hag Hillary.

Please refrain from the "hag"-dropping. Let's tamp down on the boorishness, 'kay?

let's argue her politics, OK? fact, the woman is *HAWT*, let's move on....

Yes! "Conversations with Anna's mother" is my favorite kind of posting. Much needed after so much DNC stuff!

This pick smells of weakness. Look at the timing; they are hoping to steal some of Obama's thunder but in actuality all they are going to do is completely undercut their argument that Obama's inexperience is the best case against him getting elected.

Not to mention, most Americans aren't too worried about Obama's health, excepting an assasination. McCain, on the hand, is one angry tirade away from a coronary, leaving us with a President who has never presided over anything more than the population of a mid-sized city, who is in bed with big oil and who has never accomplished anything on a national stage.

Even her appeal as a woman to Hillary voters is mitigated by her unwavering anti-abortion positions. This tokenism, plain and simple, and it reeks of pandering. It won't work; the last 48 hours have effectively sealed the deal for Obama. Unless they plan on reviving Ronald Reagan next week in Minnesota, the GOP is just going to be playing out the string until November 4th.

vpilf check out the craig fergusan bit!

By selecting a VP candidate who has nothing more in common with Hillary Clinton than ovaries, McCain just slapped 18 million people in the face. "PUMAs" should be furious that the Republicans are co-opting Clinton's landmark campaign in order to elect a candidate that believes the exact opposite of everything Hillary stood for.

I originally posted this on Ultrabrown:

The play for female votes is unlikely to bear fruit. As it is, single women vote Democratic, while married women generally vote Republican. Palin can only attract a substantial number of single women if they look past her pro-life stance.

Second, I would argue this is less a play for women than it is for the men they are married to. Palin is a very photogenic women with limited experience - the kind of woman that working women in their 50’s and 60’s hate. OTOH - there are probably many men who are married to women kwho inda wish their own wives can look as good at their age. Just as an old man in a sports car seems more appealing than an old man in a minivan, so does John McCain look better with a former beauty queen on one side and a former cheerleader on the other.

let's argue her politics, OK?

yes, lets start with the whole "I was for the boondoggle infrastructure projects in AK before I was against them! Bad Don Young! Baaaad Ted Stevens!" thing.

“Are you implying Muslims are full of harm and that we should fear them, then?”

“I DID NOT SAY THAT. Are you putting this on your website? DON’T PUT LIES ON THAT WEBSITE ABOUT YOUR MOTHER.”

That made my truncated friday afternoon! My cube-neighbors did not understand why I felt it necessary to pound my desk WHILE roaring with laughter. Easy segue into Labor Day weekend.

the woman is *HAWT*

WTF? Are you people doped up, blind, or have sad low standards?

On another note, her being married to an Eskimo should help with the brown vote.

Hillary Clinton must be hurting right now. She has worked so hard to pave the road to whitehouse and Palin out of no where gets the opportunity to become the vice-President (and perhaps President)..Life is unfair!

30 · prafool said

WTF? Are you people doped up, blind, or have sad low standards

yes she is..check this out - http://patriotroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/palin-5.JPG
btw reg. politics she has some trouble in store related to ethics investigation
So not sure whether it is wise choice. But maybe McCain is trying to compete with Obama's celebrity status.

Not so fast, this is a master stroke by McCain. In one shot:

1) He has energized the religious right. They will be sermons in churches all over the country, the Sunday before elections, to go and vote.

2) Pro-Lifers are not insignificant in numbers, and they seem very excited by the pick. They will campaign door to door. His son with Down syndrome will help.

3) By picking a very photogenic white women, he will bring older white men, and women 40s, and less to pay attention to his ticket. There is something known as "Coors Ad Effect" (Coors ad used to have his goodlooking owner in the ad, and it worked wonders for the beer company), that people gravitate toward photogenic people, and that works for Obama too.

McCain is no fool.

Personally, I have been (and am) very supportive of Obama, but I also know Democratic Party knows to loose elections from the jaws of victory, and in last 40 odd years, they have known to do it many times, starting with Carter. The chattering class that is the present core base of Democratic Party tends to be myopic, and very self centered, and often destructive.........just look comments of liberal democrats here @ SM, rather than build strong coalitions, are fighting whether the flagship of Indian-American @ DNC and other places should be held by first-genners, or second-genners, and PUMA controversary.

The only thing that will probably save Obama the day in the end is his core base............the African-Americans, and more power to them.

I meant: Her son with Down syndrome will help.

let's argue her politics, OK? fact, the woman is *HAWT*, let's move on....

I thought McCain had picked Tina Fey as his running mate - now that's change I can believe in!

33 · Kush Tandon said

1) He has energized the religious right. They will be sermons in churches all over the country, the Sunday before elections, to go and vote.

will they be as enthused by her past support for same-sex partner rights, admitted drug use and failure to criminalize private pot possession in AK?

If she can swing the conservative people from the middle ground who were probably drifting towards Obama then you have a good fight. Note Obama has been already noted to fare poorly with white working class folks. And there are many people who are not high-brow who can swing in McCain's favour. Interesting and close battle as was predicted before. And note Pakistan's coalition govt is on the verge of collapse and foreign policy/national security comes back into the stage and takes precedence over economy.

The chattering class that is the present core base of Democratic Party tends to be myopic, and very self centered, and often destructive.........just look comments of liberal democrats here @ SM, rather than build strong coalitions, are fighting whether the flagship of Indian-American @ DNC and other places should be held by first-genners, or second-genners, and PUMA controversary.

c'mon oldster. explain, don't just tar, feather and leave.

People did not vote for Eisenhower in 1952 because Nixon was on the ticket.

People did not vote for Bush in 1988 because Quayle was on the ticket.

People did not vote for Clinton in 1992 because Gore was on the ticket.

A veep choice gives some insight into how a president makes decisions, or shows what a president is lacking in certain areas.

If Hillary Clinton flamed out right after Iowa, would Palin be considered? Unlikely. If anything, this would annoy HRC - she worked her ass off to get that nomination, now some younger woman is gonna come in on a national ticket, getting all that media attention? "They are gonna ask Palin about the economy, Iraq, abortion, healthcare, and not me, with 30 years of experience?! Bitch please!"

“Who is Abhi?”

Awesome!

Palin is devastating for the Obama campaign. There is a lot of talk about demographics and like but the fact is that socially moderate to conservative white folks still decide elections. If you need evidence of this, just look at Obama's acceptance speech. Very little mention of MLK and the civil rights era. Obama didn't want to go too ethnic on them and not seem relatable. Palin is one of them. She mixes easily with them and is very comfortable around them. Her husband is a union member and fisherman. This will play very well in the heartland.

This is hilarious to watch Obama supporter deride Palin for a lack of experience.

If she is so in bed with Big Oil, then no doubt Big Oil execs will drastically reduce gas prices just in time for the election so that they'll guarantee a favorable environment for her election, right?

Yea, I thought so.

Hillary Clinton must be hurting right now. She has worked so hard to pave the road to whitehouse and Palin out of no where gets the opportunity to become the vice-President (and perhaps President)..Life is unfair!

Yeah, I think it would be insulting to all those who fought for womens rights, if a woman becomes president through back door (the chances a pretty good, considering McCain's health problems and his age). This seems like McCain's affirmative action for women.

There was an interesting poll that indicated that white people that lived in close proximitey with blacks had a more negative view of a potential black candidate than white people in say Minnesota where there was not much interaction with black folks except in the city. Obama called these people 'bitter clingers.' This choice is sure to attract those bitter clingers and a few Hillary supporters. The 'Wilder' affect is real. (The former black VA gubernatorial Democratic candidate who had a lead on all polls but easily lost the VA election)

Obama is sure to get a bounce after the convention, but this just deflates his balloon. I see Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virgina and possible Michigan going red. McCain is the next president...show is over.

43 · kal said

If Hillary Clinton flamed out right after Iowa, would Palin be considered? Unlikely. If anything, this would annoy HRC - she worked her ass off to get that nomination, now some younger woman is gonna come in on a national ticket, getting all that media attention? "They are gonna ask Palin about the economy, Iraq, abortion, healthcare, and not me, with 30 years of experience?! Bitch please!"

Republican voters irrespective of men or women despise HRC. Not all women consider HRC favourably..She is too polarizing. Only the Democratic voters and mostly women think high of her. And just because HRC didn't make it doesn't mean folks will look at Palin disapprovingly. Btw apart from nice talk and nice personal story Obama, both Palin and Obama are on the same plane for anti-democrats and anti-Obama in terms of experience. So can she & McCain cast a doubt in the mind of white independents and middle ground Republicans who where swaying towards Obama ?

a little perspective:

On teaching evolutionary biology in schools:

"Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information....Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both. And you know, I say this too as the daughter of a science teacher. Growing up with being so privileged and blessed to be given a lot of information on, on both sides of the subject -- creationism and evolution. It's been a healthy foundation for me. But don't be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides."

On man-made global warming:

Q. What is your take on global warming and how is it affecting our country?

A. A changing environment will affect Alaska more than any other state, because of our location. I'm not one though who would attribute it to being man-made.

On endangered species (polar bears:

I am disappointed with U.S. Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne's decision to list polar bears as threatened under the Endangered Species Act. Measures are already in place to protect the polar bear.

On abortion (and perhaps by extension human embryonic stem cell research):

I'm pro-life. I'll do all I can to see every baby is created with a future and potential. The legislature should do all it can to protect human life.

On energy policy:

Favors opening up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for oil and gas production. "I beg to disagree with any candidate who would say we can’t drill our way out of our problem or that more supply won’t ultimately affect prices. Of course it will affect prices."

On access to health care:

Against the Certificate of Need (CON) program which is a regulatory process that requires certain health care providers to obtain state approval before offering certain new or expanded services. "As I said recently in my State of the State Address to the Legislature, 'Under our present Certificate of Need process, costs and needs don't drive health-care choices -- bureaucracy does. Our system is broken and expensive.' Eliminating the CON program, with certain exceptions, will allow free-market competition and reduce onerous government regulation."

People did not vote for Eisenhower in 1952 because Nixon was on the ticket.
People did not vote for Bush in 1988 because Quayle was on the ticket.
People did not vote for Clinton in 1992 because Gore was on the ticket.

Yes, but John F. Kennedey would have not become POTUS without Lyndon Johnson, and dead people from Illinios.

It is not her (Palin) as a candidate in particular, the very concept of her - a goodlooking, conservative, pro-life women next to McCain will energize working class white voting bloc to max. Even some hispanics for her pro-life stance.

This, said, Obama can still win because 99.9% of African Americans are behind him, and all needs is young college-educated (under 40) urban voters to support him too.

43 · kal said

If Hillary Clinton flamed out right after Iowa, would Palin be considered? Unlikely. If anything, this would annoy HRC - she worked her ass off to get that nomination, now some younger woman is gonna come in on a national ticket, getting all that media attention? "They are gonna ask Palin about the economy, Iraq, abortion, healthcare, and not me, with 30 years of experience?! Bitch please!"

Republican voters irrespective of men or women despise HRC. Not all women consider HRC favourably..She is too polarizing. Only the Democratic voters and mostly women think high of her. And just because HRC didn't make it doesn't mean folks will look at Palin disapprovingly. Btw apart from nice talk and nice personal story Obama, both Palin and Obama are on the same plane for anti-democrats and anti-Obama in terms of experience. So can she & McCain cast a doubt in the mind of white independents and middle ground Republicans who where swaying towards Obama ?

Wha? I guess, you like my name ;-). Thats KXB

You people don't know what you're talking about. This was a very wise decision. It's a far more ballsy choice than Obama. I mean, get serious. After months of blabbing "Hope and change! Hope and change! Hope and change!" for months, he goes and picks Biden? I mean, he's the very definitino of "career Washington politician"!

Now the Democrats have their hands tied. They've been waiting for this choice for weeks in order to say "See? Four more years!", "See? Bush crony!" They were begging for McCain to pick Ridge or Romney so they can go on about "Two more Bush's for four more years!" Now they can't say it because there's no evidence to back it up, lol!

You're all complaining because she lacks experience? Oh, no! McCain just picked A FEMALE OBAMA to run alongside him. And are the Dems really going to be so irrational as to claim that having an inexperienced VP candidate is a horrible thing, but an inexperienced Presidential candidate is just fine and dandy? Looks like they're in a pickle. Because McCain is providing a fresh politician and REAL change to his ticket, something Obama DIDN'T do for his VP choice (despite all his promises).

Look, here's what the tickets are going to look like when you go to vote in November:

DEMOCRATS - President: inexperienced; Vice-president: Exprienced.

REPUBLICAN - President: experienced; Vice-president: Inexperienced.

Looks like everything's evened out. The only decision to make is if you want an inexperienced president or an inexperienced vice-president. I don't even like John McCain. But I know who I prefer

49 · hep said

Oh, no! McCain just picked A FEMALE OBAMA to run alongside him

Nice point. This makes the tussle more interesting. Who care for all the high-brow and mushy mushy stuff. It is back to square one. McCain has played a master stroke.

Yes, but John F. Kennedey would have not become POTUS without Lyndon Johnson, and dead people from Illinios.

True - but it was not enough that Johnson was from Texas. It is that he was LBJ - the roughest, toughest, arm-twistingest legislator north of the Rio Grande.

Yes - Palin's look do help McCain, just as Obama's looks help him. But John Edwards was better looking than Dick Cheney, but those good looks did not do John Kerry any good. But, I do expect Palin to be featured throughout PA, OH, and MI.

Will some on the fence white voters be swayed by Palin's looks? Maybe, but how many of them will show up to vote?

BTW - LBJ was the last Democrat to win a majority of the white vote. White women are gonna be the most sought after demographic this year. So for all you folks hoping to get a few minutes to talk about improving immigration, harassment at the airports - both Obama and McCain will have to get back to you.

Yes, but John F. Kennedey would have not become POTUS without Lyndon Johnson, and dead people from Illinios.

illinois more important than texas. remember that the south was mostly democrat back then.

Oh, no! McCain just picked A FEMALE OBAMA to run alongside him.

One item you left out - Obama ran a campaign that beat the Clinton machine. He got the most votes over the course of primaries and caucuses. Palin was picked based on her looks over more qualified, but older, women - something which has bedeviled many working women.

I love the more literary or comedic SM posts by ANNA. Next, could we have some Obama/Palin slash fiction. C'mon, you know America wants it ....

51 · KXB said

Yes - Palin's look do help McCain, just as Obama's looks help him. But John Edwards was better looking than Dick Cheney, but those good looks did not do John Kerry any good. But, I do expect Palin to be featured throughout PA, OH, and MI

You are mistaken...Looks is only a minor issue...It is the personal connection and appeal through looks, gender and background. Palin will score on this front which McCain lacks vis-a-vis Obama. Obama will have a tough time snatching the middle ground whites, working class votes from the heartlands.

No pundit will bring it up though.

Not sure if you include Rush in list of pundits, but on his show today, he said -- "She is not shrill. She does not remind guys of their ex-wives. Rather they wish she was single".

Look, here's what the tickets are going to look like when you go to vote in November:

DEMOCRATS - President: inexperienced; Vice-president: Exprienced.

REPUBLICAN - President: experienced; Vice-president: Inexperienced.

Looks like everything's evened out. The only decision to make is if you want an inexperienced president or an inexperienced vice-president. I don't even like John McCain. But I know who I prefer

Really? Obama fought hard to get here. He ran against one of the most influential political family and beat them at their game.
Also, he won more than 18 millions votes nationwide.

I think, John McCain insulted independent women by trying to play with their emotions.
Also, Her under 2 years executive experience doesn't count much. Alaska has just over half a million population and I don't think governing such a state is THE most difficult job in the world.

Hilarious! I swear this felt like it was me and my mom talking... especially her being a closeted Republican (despite her dislike with the Bush admin she still voted for him in the re-election today when I jokingly told her I think I'll vote for McCain now..she goes "yeah, that's what I've been thinking.." BUSTED!! .....*sigh*...mothers...

1 · No von Mises said

Tokenism with some nice traps. Dem's need to attack with precision. On creationism, she delivered this gem: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information."

Other parts from that interview, which you conveniently not quoted...either that or that is all you know of her views.

“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum. Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

Thank you.

it shouldn't be taught. it should be mocked. there's no room for that in 21st century. evolve already.

What's great about McCain's choice is that one way or the other, history is going to be made in November: a black president or a female veep. And given McCain's age, we may soon see a female president, which has been a long time coming in American politics. Sure, she doesn't have a lot of experience, but how much worse could she be than the current occupant of the White House?

"You are a smart Alex"

Lol, your mom is awesome.

Palin is popular with the Republican base (at least at this stage) and has energized a group that wasn't so energized about this whole McCain thing. I think that's the more important point. The righty blogs sound about Palin the way the Kos kids sound about Obama.....

“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum. Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

I would rather he gone for that...kid...the Indian...the governor...

Do they refer to Arnold Schwarznegger as "that...kid...the Austrian...the governor..."?

63 · MD said

Palin is popular with the Republican base (at least at this stage) and has energized a group that wasn't so energized about this whole McCain thing.

Really? I didn't think anyone knew her outside of Alaska till today morning!! Wonder when and how she become popular [with the base]! They like her, but popular is a stretch.

I think that McCain made a smart choice... no one from Obama's campaign can say she's inexperienced b/c that would be that pot calling the kettle black. Also, all those lost, uneducated Hilary supporters will now have someone to relate/turn to. Sarah Palin might be small town but some of our past Presidents have been as well (Truman, for example) and she's only going for VP. Also, I've met Sarah Palin and think she will do great as a VP. Better than voting in Biden and his mortgage scandals. BTW, Alaska has a population of almost 700,000 and I'm proud to say I'm one of them.

who knew mccain was such an ardent believer in the republican caricature of affirmative action, which he's now affirmed with his token pick of a woman who is really quite unqualified? i guess he is a true maverick indeed.

but as a desi, i do wonder why his tokenism did not choose the brown jindal, but rather a woman.

67 · AKresident said

Also, all those lost, uneducated Hilary supporters will now have someone to relate/turn to.

All? Bold word. Though you might not have intended to, you just insulted some mutineers' mothers by calling them "uneducated"; also, this entire post is about a Hillary supporter who does not relate to nor care to turn to Palin.

65 · VK said

Do they refer to Arnold Schwarznegger as "that...kid...the Austrian...the governor..."?

And "they" would be? Do you really think Jindal and the Terminator are analogous? Finally, FWIW, there is no need to find offense where there is none. We're Christian. We're brown. We're neither pro-/anti-Jindal.

Palin's big oil and gas all the way.

Big gas or big ass?

Palin's also big nose, and Palin's very good friend is Biggus Dickus.

I expect someone at the RNC to accidentally Freudian slip "Obama-Biden" into "Osama bin Laden", which would be as regrettable as saying that the country's run by Bush and Dick and their former buddy Colon Bowel.

33 · Kush Tandon said

but I also know Democratic Party knows to loose elections from the jaws of victory, ... The chattering class that is the present core base of Democratic Party tends to be myopic, and very self centered, and often destructive.........just look comments of liberal democrats here @ SM, rather than build strong coalitions

Well put.

Remember Gore and then Kerry. Democratic Party has demonstrated how to screw things up. I just hope the Obama campaign has more brains than Obama devotees. Heck some commentators here even don't realize that if Obama loses Moornam will be grating them for 4 long years on this board. ;)

63 · MD said

Palin is popular with the Republican base (at least at this stage) and has energized a group that wasn't so energized about this whole McCain thing. I think that's the more important point. The righty blogs sound about Palin the way the Kos kids sound about Obama.....

MD is exactly right. This pick is only secondarily about Palin's potential crossover appeal, which I think is minimal. It's actually about shoring up McCain's base, especially on the right, while trying to restore some shine to his rather tarnished "maverick" image. So it's a defensive more than an offensive pick for him. It was a good choice if only for that reason, and even better considering the mediocrity of the alternatives. But I don't see how it improves the electoral map for him beyond helping his prospects of holding some Republican-leaing Southern and Western states where Obama is seriously challenging.

>>Heck some commentators here even don't realize that if Obama loses Moornam will be grating them for 4 long years on this board. ;)

I'll grate you folks either way - it's the least I could do!

>>no one from Obama's campaign can say she's inexperienced b/c that would be that pot calling the kettle black.

*Ahem*...

M. Nam

58 · Desi Mem said

Hilarious! I swear this felt like it was me and my mom talking... especially her being a closeted Republican (despite her dislike with the Bush admin

Chandare, Brimful, Wee!, Nayagan, AF, Desi Mem, Mode...thank you. :)

71 · pingpong said

Palin's big oil and gas all the way.

Big gas or big ass?

Palin's also big nose, and Palin's very good friend is Biggus Dickus.

I expect someone at the RNC to accidentally Freudian slip "Obama-Biden" into "Osama bin Laden", which would be as regrettable as saying that the country's run by Bush and Dick and their former buddy Colon Bowel.

---

You've got to laugh abit, love a little, drink a little.

Can we get some SepiaMunity style regular video show like Pot Psychology?

As per my personal prediction, the race is going to be tight down to the wire.

Good Memorial Day weekend gents and ladies!

karmabyte - she's been a regular fixture (in terms of speculation) for months at NRO, Hot Air, Instapundit, Commentary, The Weekly Standard, etc, etc. So, at least on the blog world right, and the radio shows, she is known as a young and exicting 'real' conservative. That's just me reporting what I've read and heard.....

Talkign of mothers, I'm loving this.

Population perspectives

State of Alaska: 670,053

-metro Atlanta counties-

Fulton (992,137)
Gwinnett (776,380)
DeKalb (737,093)
Cobb (691,905)

Delaware has similar population as Alaska.

As a proud PUMA: Hahahahahaha....

Game, set, match McCain.

And just to illustrate the class and graciousness of Hillary Clinton:

HRC's statement on Sarah Palin: “We should all be proud of Governor Sarah Palin’s historic nomination, and I congratulate her and Senator McCain,” she says. “While their policies would take America in the wrong direction, Governor Palin will add an important new voice to the debate.”
[basically - great for diversity, wrong on policy. no demeaning of her as a human being]

Barack Obama's statement on Sarah Palin: "Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency. ......"
[basically - pot, meet kette. Well, she has as much foreign policy experience as does Barack. Oh wait, I forgot he spent three years in Indonesia as a pre-teen....Plus she's been an elected official since 1996 - vs 1999 for Barack. And 2 yrs of executive experience vs ZERO for Barack.]

Obama just got majorly pwned.

Best is when the Republican ads start showing how Gov Palin went to visit US troops when in Germany last year. And Sen Obama couldnt be bothered to do so on his grand tour of Europe.

As a proud PUMA: Hahahahahaha....

Game, set, match McCain.

Well, if you want McCain as the President then sure.

Just remember HRC is out of the equation now so it does not matter a whole lot what she says. Maybe McCain will use her statements in political advertisements but that is it.

Hey, if you want a female 'Dick Cheney' in white house then you deserve her.

80 · Chevalier said

Best is when the Republican ads start showing how Gov Palin went to visit US troops when in Germany last year. And Sen Obama couldnt be bothered to do so on his grand tour of Europe.

chevalier, spoken like a true puma.

As a proud PUMA: Hahahahahaha....

just in case you are confused, woman != feminist - at least the conventional understanding of those terms (as as manju pointed out, "the oppressed often have a different relationship with their oppression than we think they should" - of course, he just changes the defn of "racist" and "feminist") just the other day, i recall your complaining about obama for his lack of support of third-trimester abortions. and here you are all excited about a woman who doesn't even want rape or incest exceptions to abortions of any sort.

She described herself as “just your average hockey mom,”

hockey mom = mother pucker?

mcbush indeed. did anybody notice palin's pronunciations - "eye-ran", "eye-rack" and "nuke-u-lar", in her speech?

ANNA, it appears your mother is my mother, because I had this exact - absolutely unadulterated verbatim - conversation with my mother this afternoon. What is with desi PUMA moms???

80 · Chevalier said

As a proud PUMA: Hahahahahaha....

Game, set, match McCain.

And just to illustrate the class and graciousness of Hillary Clinton:

HRC's statement on Sarah Palin: “We should all be proud of Governor Sarah Palin’s historic nomination, and I congratulate her and Senator McCain,” she says. “While their policies would take America in the wrong direction, Governor Palin will add an important new voice to the debate.”[basically - great for diversity, wrong on policy. no demeaning of her as a human being]

Barack Obama's statement on Sarah Palin: "Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency. ......"[basically - pot, meet kette. Well, she has as much foreign policy experience as does Barack. Oh wait, I forgot he spent three years in Indonesia as a pre-teen....Plus she's been an elected official since 1996 - vs 1999 for Barack. And 2 yrs of executive experience vs ZERO for Barack.]

Obama just got majorly pwned.

Best is when the Republican ads start showing how Gov Palin went to visit US troops when in Germany last year. And Sen Obama couldnt be bothered to do so on his grand tour of Europe.

I've yet to hear any PUMA articulate a sensible policy based reason for this hatred. There are plenty of legitimate differences of opinion which might lead someone to choose McCain over Obama, but I think we all know what's driving PUMAs. Visiting troops in Germany is pretty meaningless if you were pro-Iraq war. It's like pushing someone in front of a car and then pretending to care by candystriping

Messed up quote tool again, my comment begins "I've yet to hear."

80 · Chevalier said

As a proud PUMA: Hahahahahaha....

Game, set, match McCain.

And just to illustrate the class and graciousness of Hillary Clinton:

HRC's statement on Sarah Palin: “We should all be proud of Governor Sarah Palin’s historic nomination, and I congratulate her and Senator McCain,” she says. “While their policies would take America in the wrong direction, Governor Palin will add an important new voice to the debate.”[basically - great for diversity, wrong on policy. no demeaning of her as a human being]

Barack Obama's statement on Sarah Palin: "Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency. ......"[basically - pot, meet kette. Well, she has as much foreign policy experience as does Barack. Oh wait, I forgot he spent three years in Indonesia as a pre-teen....Plus she's been an elected official since 1996 - vs 1999 for Barack. And 2 yrs of executive experience vs ZERO for Barack.]

Obama just got majorly pwned.

Best is when the Republican ads start showing how Gov Palin went to visit US troops when in Germany last year. And Sen Obama couldnt be bothered to do so on his grand tour of Europe.

as a desi, the only thing i trust are numbers.

13th district of illinois (BO's state senate district)

population stats: 781,037

http://fastfacts.census.gov/servlet/ACSCWSFacts?_event=&geo_id=50000US1713&_geoContext=01000US%7C04000US17%7C50000US1713&_street=&_county=&_cd=50000US1713&_cityTown=&_state=04000US17&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=500&_content=&_keyword=&_industry=

state of alaska:

population stats: 670,053

http://fastfacts.census.gov/servlet/ACSCWSFacts?_event=ChangeGeoContext&geo_id=04000US02&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=&_cd=&_state=04000US02&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010&_industry=

so even as a state senator (not US senator) BO represented a larger constituency compared to Palin.

i messed up the quotes :( sorry.

He can’t expect me to jump up and down just because he picked a woman.

I have to agree with A N N A's mother. I had not really given credence to most of the criticisms about McCain's anti-women behavior, but the cynicism and condescension displayed in his pick of somebody as anti-feminist and right wing as Sarah Palin is truly disgusting. As a woman, am I supposed to be so stupid that I will now vote for McCain purely because he now added some ovaries to the team?

McCain's pick has definited swayed my vote: it goes to Obama. At least he had the dignity and decency to make a serious VP pick to bolster governance and build a good working team once he became president, rather than be like McCain and pick somebody whose experience consists of governing a state with population lower than most major cities, pushes an extreme conservative agenda, and hasn't even really interacted with McCain enough in a sustained manner to make a determination of a collegial relationship.

Truly disgusting. Women deserve better than McCain.

This governor probably has never ever seen a black person in her life. I bet she thinks black people are a mythical creature like a unicorn or a frog prince. I cant get over how cheap this is!

I do love the drama though because in the end your never safe in this world unless your rich and no amount of "Change" is going to change that fact, so just sit back and enjoy the show. Maybe I am being cynical but I have never in my life seen a decision made by a politician affect a rich person or help the middle class.

so even as a state senator (not US senator) BO represented a larger constituency compared to Palin.

And for some more numbers:

Population of Wasilla, the Alaskan town responsible for the majority of Sarah Palin's "executive" experience: 6000

Number of votes Joe Biden received in the Iowa primary: 9,000

Obama can still win because 99.9% of African Americans are behind him

African-americans have always overwhelmingly supported the (until now always white) democratic nominee for President. Barack's candidacy has just raised that support from around 80% to around 90%. Where is your evidence that it is 99.9%?

most vp picks don't matter. this matters a bit more than usual since mccain's 72 and with every year the statistical chance of his facing health issues increases, and dramatically so. there's some potential upside, politically speaking. but man, there are so many dangers. politicians in alaska don't read from teleprompters. the crowd she spoke to today was likely the largest one she's ever spoken to. there's a knowledge gap. there's also the scandals. there are two separate ones (troopergate as it's known in alaska). the bigger one has an ongoing investigation that's due to deliver a report.. *drumroll* FIVE days before the election. i think these political risks outweigh the mild expected benefits among the republican base.

i am somewhat disturbed by what this decision (a more or less private, personal one made exclusively by mccain) tells us about his thought-process and ability to do risk assessment. there's the political risk, outlined above, and then there's the more broad national risk. it isn't just about experience, it's about knowledge. obama and biden are on the foreign relations cmte. and biden is its chair. obama has authored pieces of foreign-policy legislation. so far as we know, she has not said anything of consequence on the matter, besides comments a month ago that revealed a startling lack of understanding of mccain's own position on iraq. mccain seems to have a very foolhardy choice here that offers the United States a non-trivial possibility that in a year or two, a person who was mayor of a town of 6000 18 months ago will be leading it. of course, everything could turn out well, but this is world of probabilities and risk; and in that regard this seems like a terrible choice on both political, and national-interest fronts.

Barack's candidacy has just raised that support from around 80% to around 90%. Where is your evidence that it is 99.9%?

Dude, 99.9% is a statistical impossibility in a democracy, a few will break away be. Sure, it is around 90%

Sure, 80% of blacks (the ones who vote or allowed to vote with all the felony barring laws in few states) have voted for white democrat candidates in past.

This time around it will be 90% of a larger percentage of African American votes. Apart from that, they (African American) are raising money, and what not.

her being married to an Eskimo

Actually he is 25% eskimo, looks like the stereotypical blue collar white, belongs to a union, works as a fisherman, does not have a college degree, is a champion snowmobiler, family man, evangelical christian etc. Probably the main reason why Sarah Palin was picked for running mate is because the Palin family truly represents the Republican Party's core constituency, in belief and lifestyle. And that constituency is predictably energized by the pick.

This time around it will be 90% of a larger percentage of African American votes. Apart from that, they (African American) are raising money, and what not

I meant a larger base number

99.9% is a statistical impossibility in a democracy, a few will break away be. Sure, it is around 90%

In other words, you knowingly lied.

In other words, you knowingly lied.

Yes, I did.

What are you going to about it? Bring it on.

I guess McCain thought Jindal was just too young. :-(

As a proud PUMA: Hahahahahaha....Game, set, match McCain......Obama just got majorly pwned.

Actually what's funny is that a "proud PUMA" would rejoice so stupidly over a McCain Presidency. Didnt you know that he is an anti-feminist who is against Roe v Wade, against equal pay for equal work etc?

94 · jackal said

most vp picks don't matter. this matters a bit more than usual since mccain's 72 and with every year the statistical chance of his facing health issues increases, and dramatically so.

Agree with you, and it's worth sharpening this point. John Sidney McCain III, exactly 72 yesterday, will be the ldest man ever to be nominated on his party's ticket (Ronald Reagan was older at 73+ but only the second time, in 1984. And there was a lot of speculation that he displayed signs of Alzheimer's during his second term, so that's not something he can use in his defence!)

Apart from any unforeseeable health concerns (including psychiatric ones) that come from his 5 years as a POW, he has had 4 melanomas - beginning in 1993, and underwent extensive surgery in 2000, and then again in 2002. (Obama would be the third youngest.) Link

“With melanoma, a patient is never completely clear,” said Dr. Shapiro, the N.Y.U. expert. Link

Even if he was, say, younger by 2 decades, Palin is still the wrong choice. It's the choice one makes when one knows one isn't going to win anyway, so one might as well make the party look good, even if 24 years behind the Democrats in putting a woman on the national ticket.

If the Obama's campaign main argument against Gov Palin is the 'heartbeat away' refrain, I'm afraid that is going to be woefully hypocritical after all the screaming they did about Hillary Clinton's 'anything can happen in politics' remark back in June.

And about women's rights - McCain and Palin have themselves been a LOT more respectful of women than any ten of Obama's finest campaign officials. And for the record, more than most people on this blog were (of course, none of us is running for elected office!)

See part 2 of the Newsweek interview in http://www.newsweek.com/id/156190

Sarah's grateful for Title IX - that's a huge source of feminist pride. She's not very proud of her beauty queen days & tries to underplay it - saying she did it only to earn a scholarship for college. She calls people who question her ability to balance motherhood and a career 'Neanderthals whom I'd be happy to escort back to their cave': IOW, she's fiercely independant.

Sarah was actually MORE complimentary and understanding of Hillary Clinton than most Obama-Democrats were - at a time when SHE DIDNT NEED TO BE - back in March. She says she would've loved to jump on the Hillary Cinton bandwagon, but she currently supports McCain because of national security & federalism (remember she's a Republican). She says she loves Hillary's impatience to get things done, and her directness in going from Point A to Point B, and her non-wishy-washy-ness, and the fact that she doesnt see the need to use 'charm' to convince people.
FWIW, her husband is a stay-at-home daddy. She's definitely not the Phylis Schafly (sp?) mold.

I'm sold. I'm not just highly appreciative of McCain's political smarts, I LIKE this woman.

does being understanding of hillary clinton include any of her richly-detailed policy proposals (neera tanden is now on the obama-biden campaign, btw) or vision or agenda for the country? because, um, hate to break it to you.. but the republican proposals (well, the relatively few that exist anyway) are often the polar opposite of hillary's. and yes, sarah palin is quite quite republican.

So, no, I don't think she truly understood, or understands where Hillary, who has quite a history with the right wing, was coming from, in a political, or personal sense, and what she aimed to accomplish. She did call her 'whiny' though. Nice try!

(also, you know, slight difference on 'anything can happen' between a healthy 47-year old and a 72-year old with past health concerns; something republican commentators themselves acknowledge especially with regards to the vp pick.)

103 · Chevalier said

And about women's rights - McCain and Palin have themselves been a LOT more respectful of women than any ten of Obama's finest campaign officials.

yes, especially her no rape/incest exception for abortion thing. and mccain's rape jokes, and mccain's abortion record, as well as voting record on equal pay for women (which obama was in favor of), among other things (such as your hero's daughter's ugliness being inherited from the masculine janet reno).

I'm sold.

hey chevalier, want a bridge in brooklyn?

I LIKE this woman.

well, don't fall out of like with her or you might lose your job. well, at least on the ethical malpractice thing, she's a quick study and really quite precocious.

I just cannot comprehend this voting b/c we have a woman running thing. I see myself as a member of society before I see myself as a woman.

103 · Chevalier said

If the Obama's campaign main argument against Gov Palin is the 'heartbeat away' refrain, I'm afraid that is going to be woefully hypocritical after all the screaming they did about Hillary Clinton's 'anything can happen in politics' remark back in June.

yes, thankfully mccain has never been hypocritical about anything, so obama's team's hypocritical comments are an excellent reason to vote for johnny mac.

Is it me or does anybody else think she looks like the lost sister of Tina Fey?

105 · the doctor said

yes, especially her no rape/incest exception for abortion thing.

Well, she's not alone!!!

Palin is a wise choice. She rallies the conservative base, and they're more important to McCain than independent and undecided voters. People are complaining that this ticket isn't in touch with "everyday America". Um, who cares? For the most part, "everyday America" doesn't vote.

Sarah Palin - an attempt to energize anti-abortion, NRA-types that feel unenthusiastic about McCainn. Call her what she is - Quota Queen.

Yes, I did.

What are you going to about it? Bring it on

Heh. I would like to call attention to this brilliant slam, which simultanesously manages to dismiss the clueless valmiki while smacking bush.

As a guy who voted for Obama, I can say that I wish McCain picked Lieberman because that would have guaranteed him a loss. What good is more experience when people like Lieberman foolishly advocated ridiculous wars with Iraq? Palin might turn off some Hillaryites from the Dem party now, but she will energize the female republicans while campaigning. I have seen clips of her. i despise her religious fundamentalism but she seems to be a dynamic campaigner providing energy to the McCain campaign. She seems to have better leadership qualities than Kay Bailey or Joe Loserman. THere is some debate on how much opposition she really provided against the Bridge to Nowhere. Then there is troopergate. But I think her lack of enough experience is not a big issue. Plenty of experienced fools cost this country thousands of lives and trillions of money in the foolish impotent and unfocused war on terror.

frankly, as a Hillary supporter, I am insulted that this is what the republicans are dangling out before us, hoping that we'll take the bait. do they realize that most of us are pro-choice, anti-NRA, working moms who believe in Hill's health care for all plan, etc? Never in a million years would I vote for this female Huckabee. We should all work as hard as possible to prevent her from getting within a heartbeat of office. Otherwise, I am sure that we can kiss roe v. wade goodbye. Does anyone know if she has any position on immigrant rights issues? I can't imagine that the topic came up in BFE Alaska, but who knows. I hope that this backfires on McCain.

Random musings: Politics aside, Palin's definitely a MILF...and as a mallu penti gone sour, Harold Camping is still alive let alone still predicting the end of the world?

frankly, as a Hillary supporter, I am insulted that this is what the republicans are dangling out before us, hoping that we'll take the bait. do they realize that most of us are pro-choice, anti-NRA, working moms who believe in Hill's health care for all plan, etc?

I'm beginning to think Palin is not aimed at you, or other women, but white working class men. After all, if given the choice between the skinny black guy with the odd name, or a MILF who is good with guns and kids, which do you think working class men in PA, OH, and MI are gonna go for? One of the criticisms I've made about "diversity" talk or affirmative action is that white women tend to be the main beneficiaries of such programs.

Women View Palin More Skeptically Than Men

These numbers pretty much speak for themselves, but men have a favorable imperssion of Palin by a 35-point margin, whereas women have a favorable impression of her by an 18-point margin. Conversely, by a 23-point margin, women do not think Palin is ready to be President, whereas Palin lost this question among men by a considerably smaller 6-point magrin.

(Tip to the Daily Dish)

Tina fey all the vey

I think this could be real interesting if a woman is VP. How would the Muslim world handle this? Would Saudi's ever interact with her? Could Iran or al-qaeda put up with a woman unbeliever giving speeches about crushing them in a war? This could be potentially hilarious.

Also does anyone else believe the second they win the election her Iraq bound son all of the sudden is deemed to much a risk to the troops and brought back to the USA?

96 · Valmiki said

Actually he is 25% eskimo, looks like the stereotypical blue collar white, belongs to a union, works as a fisherman, does not have a college degree, is a champion snowmobiler, family man, evangelical christian etc

103 · Chevalier said

FWIW, her husband is a stay-at-home daddy

Wonder how that works together [if they are true]?! And that is supposed to energize a patriarchal section of the society?

I'm beginning to think Palin is not aimed at you, or other women, but white working class men.

Yes. Very early days, but here is the path to victory in a close election:

1) Must protect Ohio(20) and Virginia(13) -- currently tied
2) Must protect slender leads in Montana(3), Dakotas(6)

Assuming Florida and Missouri to be safe, 1) and 2) give 260. Given Obama's caucus campaign in Iowa and demographics in New Mexico, those two states are hard to recover. That leaves Colorado(9), Nevada(5) and New Hampshire(4). 269-269 tie takes it to house and a defeat, so just winning Colorado out of the three, or losing Colorado and winning both Nevada and New Hampshire isn't going to help. Current poll results show a slightly bigger lead for democrats in Nevada(3%) than in New Hampshire (1%), but I think it is easier to defend Nevada than to pick up New Hampshire.

Therefore, Ohio, Virginia, Colorado and Nevada are the key must-win states. Puma swing is not going to clinch those four states; a huge turnout of an energized base is the only hope. [link]

115 · KXB said

Women View Palin More Skeptically Than Men

These numbers pretty much speak for themselves, but men have a favorable imperssion of Palin by a 35-point margin, whereas women have a favorable impression of her by an 18-point margin. Conversely, by a 23-point margin, women do not think Palin is ready to be President, whereas Palin lost this question among men by a considerably smaller 6-point magrin.

Of course people are skeptical. They don't know the woman. What an obvious tactic claiming that women don't like Palin; that's a far-fetched assertion since most people have no clue about her and just learned her name.

A swing and a miss from KXB. Try again please.

I would like to call attention to this brilliant slam, which simultanesously manages to dismiss the clueless valmiki

A thuggish adolescent saying yes I lied, so what, what are you going to about it, must be a "brilliant" debater indeed :)

Not surprising at all to see a sedentary glutton who keeps boasting of his tight abs, come to the defense of another lie....

A swing and a miss from KXB. Try again please.

Not knowing someone does not automatically lead to being skeptical. But what was interesting is that despite the fact that men and women were introduced to Palin at the same time, you see such a divergence in the level of skepticism. Again, men are much more persuaded by a pretty face than women. Since an election is essentially a job interview, the American public is being asked to choose the ticket with the war hero and seemingly warm woman on one side, and the uppity black guy and Washington know-it-all on the other. I'm not saying the election is over, a lot can happen. But McCain has clearly focused on short-term electibility, at the expense of governance and security on the other.

121 · Valmiki said

Not surprising at all to see a sedentary glutton who keeps boasting of his tight abs, come to the defense of another lie....

don't forget my bum.

Isn't it obvious what's happening here? Haven't I been warning you? Palin's hot. Obama's lean. It can only mean one thing. Oprah has taken over.

Heres something else for the bitter PUMAs to chew on: the gun toting, moose hunting, beauty queen Sarah Palin called their heroine Hillary Clinton a whiner. And she seems to identify with Obama's message of change:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2008/09/08/080908ta_talk_gourevitch

"Before she was running against him, Sarah Palin—the governor of Alaska and now the Republican candidate for Vice-President of the United States—thought it was pretty neat that Barack Obama was edging ahead of John McCain in her usually solidly red state. After all, she said, Obama’s campaign was using the same sort of language that she had in her gubernatorial race. “The theme of our campaign was ‘new energy,’ ” she said recently. “It was no more status quo, no more politics as usual, it was all about change. So then to see that Obama—literally, part of his campaign uses those themes, even, new energy, change, all that, I think, O.K., well, we were a little bit ahead on that.” She also noted, “Something’s kind of changing here in Alaska, too, for being such a red state on the Presidential level. Obama’s doing just fine in polls up here, which is kind of wigging people out, because they’re saying, ‘This hasn’t happened for decades that in polls the D’ ”—the Democratic candidate—“ ‘is doing just fine.’ To me, that’s indicative, too. It’s the no-more-status-quo, it’s change.”

KXB:

I'm beginning to think Palin is not aimed at you, or other women, but white working class men. After all, if given the choice between the skinny black guy with the odd name, or a MILF who is good with guns and kids, which do you think working class men in PA, OH, and MI are gonna go for?

You may be right on this. I did find that ex-Watergate burglar G. Gordon Liddy (now some sort of radio host) was/is also making calendars with pictures of women (including MILFs) with guns: link. Appealing to similar demographics?

I'm beginning to think Palin is not aimed at you, or other women, but white working class men.

No doubt the selection of Sarah Palin excites the blue collar bubbas who spend Sunday morning at evangelical churches, Sunday afternoon at NASCAR and the evening at strip clubs where the juke box is filled with country music. But many women too, including hard core PUMAs, are also excited by the possibility of seeing a female in the White House.

By the way, where are those evangelical wackos who were praying so fervently to God that he rain on Obama's big night at the stadium last thursday? Why arent they praying to stop Hurricane Gustav from spoiling their evangelical heroine's coming out party?

122 · KXB said

A swing and a miss from KXB. Try again please.

Not knowing someone does not automatically lead to being skeptical. But what was interesting is that despite the fact that men and women were introduced to Palin at the same time, you see such a divergence in the level of skepticism.

Why does that even matter? Palin has only been on the ticket since the day before yesterday! All this poll proves is that men make quick decisions. Thank you for that eye-opening piece of info.

The convention begins Monday. Palin will get her chance to introduce herself to female voters. So women are skeptical. Big deal. A stage will be provided for her to answer to that next week. Polls like the one you linked to will be far more relevant after the convention.

What movie do you think McCain and Palin will view together on a date ? The recently released Ben Kingsley Cruz starrer Elegy ;)

August 30, 2008
Palin booed for mentioning Hillary Clinton
Posted: 07:35 PM ET

From CNN Political Producer Peter Hamby

Palin is praising Clinton on the trail as the GOP woos the New York senator’s supporters.
WASHINGTON, Pennsylvania (CNN) – This might not be the best way to reach out to those disillusioned Hillary Clinton supporters.

In just her second appearance on the campaign trail with John McCain, newly-minted GOP running mate Sarah Palin was showered with boos on Saturday for attempting to praise Clinton’s trail-blazing bid to become the first female president.

As she did at in her debut speech in Ohio yesterday, Palin appealed to the women in the crowd here in Pennsylvania with a political shout-out to Geraldine Ferraro, who preceded Palin as the first women to be tapped as a vice presidential candidate. The reference was met with polite applause.

But in contrast with the mild reception that greeted the comment at the Ohio event, when Palin praised Clinton here for showing “determination and grace in her presidential campaign,” the Alaska governor was met with a noisy mix of boos, groans and grumbles around the minor league ballpark where the “Road to the Convention Rally” was held.

Palin quickly recovered, promising the audience that female candidates weren’t yet finished, and that she and McCain were on their way to victory in November.

Filed under: Hillary Clinton • Sarah Palin

On a more serious note, Sarah Palin is even more like GWB than McCain is:

Governor of a state that's rich in oil resources: check.

Tends to be evangelical on social issues: check.

Has no national-level government experience: check.

She's just another Bush. And this is the choice of the guy who was once considered a maverick?

Sarah Palin - an attempt to energize anti-abortion, NRA-types that feel unenthusiastic about McCainn. Call her what she is - Quota Queen.

I'm not sure that is so bad if you actually read Biden's record:

Some saleinet points of note from CNET:

By choosing Joe Biden as their vice presidential candidate, the Democrats have selected a politician with a mixed record on technology who has spent most of his Senate career allied with the FBI and copyright holders, who ranks toward the bottom of CNET's Technology Voters' Guide, and whose anti-privacy legislation was actually responsible for the creation of PGP.

Last year, Biden sponsored an RIAA-backed bill called the Perform Act aimed at restricting Americans' ability to record and play back individual songs from satellite and Internet radio services. (The RIAA sued XM Satellite Radio over precisely this point.) All of which meant that nobody in Washington was surprised when Biden was one of only four U.S. senators invited to a champagne reception in celebration of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act hosted by the MPAA's Jack Valenti, the RIAA, and the Business Software Alliance.

"Anti-terror" legislation
The next year, months before the Oklahoma City bombing took place, Biden introduced another bill called the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995. It previewed the 2001 Patriot Act by allowing secret evidence to be used in prosecutions, expanding the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and wiretap laws, creating a new federal crime of "terrorism" that could be invoked based on political beliefs, permitting the U.S. military to be used in civilian law enforcement, and allowing permanent detection of non-U.S. citizens without judicial review. The Center for National Security Studies said the bill would erode "constitutional and statutory due process protections" and would "authorize the Justice Department to pick and choose crimes to investigate and prosecute based on political beliefs and associations."
link

But wait, I guess he's all for "Change" now. Better check you computer ... you might have software or music that might violate a Biden law and send you to jail.

I wonder why people are not more critical of Palin's manifestly cruel decision of not aborting a child with down syndrome. Hopefully by the time the child grows up, the laws would give him the ability to sue Palin for being so irresponsible.

133 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said

I wonder why people are not more critical of Palin's manifestly cruel decision of not aborting a child with down syndrome. Hopefully by the time the child grows up, the laws would give him the ability to sue Palin for being so irresponsible.

Probably because she has a different interpretation of what life is and what values are associated with it.

That aside, you cannot determine with a 100% accuracy if a child will have down's syndrome.

Moreover, the way you have made your point smacks of ignorance and insensitivity. As someone who used to participate in events where kids my age suffering from Down's Syndrome participated, and having friends and family who have children with down's syndrome...I would hardly describe their existence as "cruel".

Maybe you should analyze your own value system before you make light of other's...

And by your yardstick, In families, whose socio-economic status would ensure that if a girl is born her existence would be cruel...are justified in having a girl-child aborted...

there's no way pafd wrote #133. that's gotta be prema dumbing down the convo

103 · Chevalier said

And about women's rights - McCain and Palin have themselves been a LOT more respectful of women than any ten of Obama's finest campaign officials.

Whichever cave you may have been in, we have had the sunshine for years now, since around 1992 when the Hillary as evil/*****/*******/Vince Fosteree etc., began. The Rethuglican [gutter] press has made a neat pile out of a trade in Hillary smears. Added to that John McSame's own smears of Hillary, Chelsea, and any other woman, inclusing his own wife whom he called a trollope of a ****. And then not to forget the Hillary nutcracker that was made up by the Rush Limbaugh crook brigade. After years of vilification of self-made and educated women, does the McSame camp expect people to believe that they are for empowering women? But then sadly that may yet come true. Adlai Stevenson had it right when he said of the support of the smart people, "But I need a majority to win." And so it is about every Presidential election. It is only wholesale groups that can be held on to. Issues can't be sold. This happened in 2000 when guys thought it was cool to vote for Bush-Cheney. Look at the lengths Michelle and Hillary must go to efface their ideas, their smarts, their talent. The nomination of Clarence Thomas was an insult coming after it did to succeed the titan Thurgood Marshall. This veep pick of Sarah Palin is a gambit by the Bush machine to turn the GOP inside out, of course with McSame's cooperation. This is a deal worked out by the Bush machine and McSame who after the insults and smear heaped on him in 2000 has caved in completely -maverick no more, just sidekick. The last eight years have seen a procession of below par professional appointments - Tomlinson at NPR and that kook at NASA who questioned NASA's statement on cosmology. When McSame retires it will be Palin and a new group of ignorants who are going to run the administration. if you though "Brownie you are doing a heckuva job" was smart wait till you see the ones that come with Palin in four years' time.

see? ^^^^ can i call it or what?

as an obstetrician, yes you can can determine with nearly 100% accuracy that a fetus will have trisomy 21 (Down's), by amniocentesis

Palin is no "girl." Where I come from, we don't refer to grown women in their forties who are Governors as girls...not unless you are a good ol' boy and don't know better. That must be the case here.
I find it sad and ironic that many woman fail to examine her career or take her seriously as a candidate just because she is a woman....I wonder if people would refer to Gov. Bobby Kindal as a "boy"....or Gov. Kaine.
I guess her resume pales in comparison to Obama's impressive resume. He sure is a hell of a campaigner and fundraiser. That is change we can believe in. Who cares about actual "work"--that is small stuff (like the tax rebates she sent out to working families, how she successfully passed a windfall profit tax on the oil company, like the reform she worked on, how she uprooted the corrupt republican network in Alaska...and this list goes on....)
That doesn't matter...she is just a girl Governor who is pretty. We know pretty women cannot lead or be taken seriously! As if.

would hardly describe their existence as "cruel".

Agreed.

To add, how Downs Syndrome impacts a child/individual ranges from mild to severe. I don't think anyone can predict where a child falls in that range at birth, I'm not sure, maybe some of the docs here can chime in? People with downs syndrome are quite functional in most cases and capable of human emotions. I would hardly call that cruel.

Whether a mother wants to abort or not is up to the mother. That's what pro-choice is about...now after birth how parents take care of their kids can be negligent, which would be cruel. I don't see any issue with a mother deciding to have a child, even if the child has down syndrome, as long as the child is loved and taken care of. If the parent isn't going to be responsible nor have the resources, then it's quite understandable that a choice is made not to bring a child in to the world.

Holy crap!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/29/17933/7330/417/579267

"it appears that Pallin's last child, a baby with Down's syndrome, may not be hers. It may be that of her teenage daughter."

Related video:

http://tinyurl.com/6kqem6

140 · shalini said

as an obstetrician, yes you can can determine with nearly 100% accuracy that a fetus will have trisomy 21 (Down's), by amniocentesis

I wanted someone else to bring that up...isn't there a risk of miscarriage associated with that?

And after you are done with the classless and tasteless (obviously) DailyKOS link...

Try the 9-11 was an Inside Job , Skull and Bones Secret Society and stuff about how the white man keeps you down through the Illuminati...

131 · pingpong said

She's just another Bush. And this is the choice of the guy who was once considered a maverick?

both David Frum and Shannen Coffin are calling the pick unwise and basically tantamount to McCain announcing that the office of VP is entirely unnecessary (which I would agree with.) I find it prudent to run for the hills when the Frumburglar is dissenting from the approach taken by the GOP and when someone at the NRO ponies up enough dough to buy the massive amounts of Cheetos necessary to distract Jonah long enough to run a nearly unambiguously negative reaction in the NRO.

OTOH it could just be McCain calling the Heartland's bluff and selecting the archetypal uber-mom.

146 · Nayagan said

I find it prudent to run for the hills when the Frumburglar is dissenting from the approach taken by the GOP and when someone at the NRO ponies up enough dough to buy the massive amounts of Cheetos necessary to distract Jonah long enough to run a nearly unambiguously negative reaction in the NRO.

Do you actually read these dunces?

Ignorance is a virtue for the base. So whether he Biden-Palin debate sees sparks or goes South for Palin the base will be thrilled. Remember the base uses Minstry of Truth methods. When Democratic woman pursues career and gets her husband to manage the backoffice, she is being *****, a man-eater, a nutcracker. When the other side does it, she is showing determination, work-life balance etc etc. The NRO has spent the last 5 years in anticipation of a Hillary campaign trashing professional career women, pay equity etc. Now that they have a woman who has done all of these, those actions become OK all of a sudden. But the base will buy it. Remember what Adlai Stevenson said about smart people, "But I need a majority to win."

147 · jyotsana said

The NRO has spent the last 5 years in anticipation of a Hillary campaign trashing professional career women, pay equity etc.

Can you post some links? I'd like to know how exactly the NRO has spent the last 5 years trashing professiional career women.

Too many of these comments show a severe misunderstanding of the Republican party and of conservative principles. The media has been all over this trying to make it seem like it was a pick meant to get angry Clinton voters. That is a tiny, tiny slice of the issue. She is in many ways, a younger, female version of McCain.

She overcame the corrupt REPUBLICANS in her state in order to get government to start working for the people she served.

She took the private jet from the previous administration and put it on ebay, giving the profits to native Alaskans.

She said no to that ridiculous Bridge to Nowhere.

She has gone toe to toe with big Oil, raising oil taxes higher than they have ever been to get Alaskans their constitutionally mandated piece of the pie.

That's REFORM (with a record of actually doing so) that many Americans can believe in.

People here know next to nothing about her and yet have so much to say. In the first DAY, the Palin choice brought in 7 MILLION dollars in contributions.

Clinton supporters, many Republicans are more than happy if you switch over to vote for McCain, but once again in this campaign, this isn't about you. There are many independent voters out there who aren't hyper partisan and who are glad to give the Republican ticket a second look now.

And I'll add that I'm quite sick of Democrats acting as if they are the only party for women (not every feminist believes in abortion on demand), blacks, latinos, and other ethnic minorities in this country. Contrary to popular belief, many of us don't feel we have to wait for government in order to either help ourselves OR help other people. We're self-starters regardless of who gets elected.

149 · NotADemocrat said

She said no to that ridiculous Bridge to Nowhere.

Which by the way, the Obamessiah, the "reformer" voted for.

well said "not a democrat". as reg. abortion i don't know who the hell goes and have sex without condoms in this modern age in a developed country ? as reg. the other category of people who get pregnant due to other circumstances; not all of them need individual choice option. some restrictions on abortion itself can act as a disincentive to free wheeling unsafeguarded premature sex. but even most democrats agree to this position. even obama i think made a similar statement in his convention speech. the republicans sometime take it to extreme and want a blanket ban on abortion.

Roe v. Wade is never going to be changed. I know the liberals keep bringing this issue whenever there is a 'Pro-lifer' on the ticket. It's an issue that has been already decided, and no judiciary is going to touch that volatile issue again. Being a 'Pro-choice' or a 'pro-life' candidate is merely about which block of voters you want to appeal to. Most desis are fiscally conservative and socially liberal, and it seems in most elections this group is ignored.

149 · NotADemocrat said

She said no to that ridiculous Bridge to Nowhere.

She has gone toe to toe with big Oil, raising oil taxes higher than they have ever been to get Alaskans their constitutionally mandated piece of the pie.

what like windfall profits? When did raising taxes become a 'good' reformation of a component of the Republican platform? And she was very much for the bridge to nowhere when it was Federally funded--when that source of funding was cut off, she very conveniently declared her opposition to it. Leaving the town of Wasila with $20M in 'growth debt' wasn't that smart either.

That's why the important point about Palin's lack of experience isn't about Palin. It's about McCain. And the question is not how his choice of Palin might complicate his ability to use the "experience" issue, or whether he will have to drop experience as an issue. It's not even about the proper role of experience as an issue. In fact, it's not about experience at all. It's about honesty. The question should be whether McCain—and all the other Republicans who have been going on for months about Obama's dangerous lack of foreign policy experience—ever meant a word of it. And the answer is apparently not. Many conservative pundits woke up this very morning fully prepared to harp on Obama's alleged lack of experience for months more. Now they face the choice of either executing a Communist-style U-turn ("Experience? Feh! Who needs it?") or trying to keep a straight face while touting the importance of having been mayor of a town of 9,000 if you later find yourself president of a nation of 300 million. How Sarah Palin made the GOP change its mind about presidential qualifications. Slate.com

what like windfall profits? When did raising taxes become a 'good' reformation of a component of the Republican platform?

Nayagan, you're right that raising taxes is generally not the way Republicans like to do things, and I don't like the demonization of oil companies who already have slim profit margins. However, this election is quickly turning into a debate over both energy and who can be the best populist. This means Palin needs to have a handle on energy issues AND be dedicated to the people she represents. I see Palin doing both.

I'll concede the Bridge thing, but who is going to bring that up? Maybe the media, but then it'd be easy to say Obama voted for it instead of taking the chance to show he could be the CHANGE Americans can believe in.

As for dilettante's article... I am still amazed at how many people want to belittle the experience she has had in elected office. 13 years IIRC. Republicans will quickly add the more precise word, "accomplishments," to the topic of "experience."

I wouldn't be so concerned about Obama's lake of political experience if he could actually point to clear accomplishments that went with his change message. It isn't enough to use being a community organizer as a plus if, and he admits, you didn't really do much to help change people's lives. Or if you used your time as senator to vote present over 100 times and initiated no major piece of legislation. Many Republicans aren't concerned as much with length of time in office as they are with accomplishments for American people... of which Obama seems to have none.

Initial reaction, but women are more opposed to Palin than men. I wonder if it's because they're not dumb and realize that she's clearly a token and thoroughly unqualified like my mom did. And that's probably before they found out that she opposes abortion even in cases of rape.

See you at the Obama inaugural.

86 · louiecypher said

I've yet to hear any PUMA articulate a sensible policy based reason for this hatred. There are plenty of legitimate differences of opinion which might lead someone to choose McCain over Obama, but I think we all know what's driving PUMAs. Visiting troops in Germany is pretty meaningless if you were pro-Iraq war. It's like pushing someone in front of a car and then pretending to care by candystriping

But, but he supposedly played a MISOGYNIST rap song during one of his rallies. AND he brushed dust off his shoulders! Jigga, what? How sexist. Womyn power. Or something

These PUMAtards will be very annoying during the Obama Administration. I will have to learn to laugh them off.

Where is Bill Frist, he can tell from the pics which one is pregnant.

As for dilettante's article... I am still amazed at how many people want to belittle the experience she has had in elected office. ...Many Republicans aren't concerned as much with length of time in office as they

And yet , If you turn back the clock one week that was the main concern of Republicans, Independents, some Democrats etc; the lack of expierence, what with a reemergent Russia and all the other dangers the next POTUS will face. But maybe that wasn't polling so well.

.. are with accomplishments for American people... of which Obama seems to have none.

And yet , If you turn back the clock one week that was the main concern of Republicans, Independents, some Democrats etc; the lack of expierence, what with a reemergent Russia and all the other dangers the next POTUS will face. But maybe that wasn't polling so well.

I've been following this election for a very long time and I have heard many arguments from the right... and the vast majority have been concerned with him offering little substance, a growing list of questionable associations, his naive approach to foreign affairs, his rather extreme position on abortion, and his extraordinarily liberal voting streak despite all his talk of reaching across the aisle. I think people on the left have focused far more heavily on the experience thing because they recognize that as a real weakness in Obama. A weakness that is so obviously validated by the choice of Biden as V.P.

Honestly, I don't think very many on the right have been talking too much about length of time as much as number of accomplishments. Ponnuru's article about Obama's weak track record, written BEFORE the Palin was revealed, is a more accurate representation of what many Republicans mean when they talk "experience."

Spin it how you want.

True- nothing an elitist like Ivy league graduate Obama has done is going to compete with glass ceiling shattering, working mother Palin. That's who the American people ;-) will identify with

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. I'm Ivy educated.. many conservatives and Republicans are as well. Obama set himself up with his gun-clinging, bible thumping, xenophobes rhetoric.

N-A-D, what are examples of this judgment that McCain has that Obama is so sorely lacking? Are you referring to his decision to ditch his injured first wife who would have been a liability, and pick a blond haired blue eyed 20-something heiress to bankroll him, after playing the field?

A weakness that is so obviously validated by the choice of Biden as V.P.

What weakness, in your view does Palin validate? , As to your other concerns,I could post counterpoints, esp. the extreme views on abortion, but to what end? If people really are undecided, not clear on where someone stands-(or prays) if its a sincere desire to know more, they'll make the effort. If not...

May the best ticket win, based proposed solutions to the issues ,not empty symbols,flag pins, suits or skirts.

is a more accurate representation of what many Republicans mean when they talk "experience."

The real story on Obama's record and legislative experience.

his extraordinarily liberal voting streak despite all his talk of reaching across the aisle.

The real story on Obama's reaching across the aisle.

his naive approach to foreign affairs

are you talking about obama's support for bombing tribal areas of pakistan if needed, a position opposed by john mccain, and one that even the bush government has come around to?

are you talking about obama's insistence on a definitive timetable (or do you prefer horizon - the always visible, but never quite there, apparition) for withdrawal from iraq, a position opposed by john mccain, and one that even the bush government has come around to?

are you talking about obama's belief in tough negotiations with iran and north korea, a position that john mccain has often mocked, and one that even the bush government has come around to, as the only way to limit these countries' accumulating nuclear arsenals?

his rather extreme position on abortion

i am very eager to hear about this. can you accurately characterize his position on abortion so we can understand how extreme it is?

If experience in government is so important then every President in this history of the USA would have been great. I am not going to lie and say I like Obama because he passed article so and so, I like him because he doesnt sound like an idiot. I also think the Republican party is out of touch with real people. An Alaskan with a NRA card can never relate to the fear people from poor areas in cities go through. The amount of selfishness and ignorance in the ways they speak to people against guns are stunning. It takes ball's the size of hot air balloons to look at poor children in the street's of Chicago and explain to them that the reason you dont want to ban AK-47's is because you like to shoot moose with them at your secluded forest that doesnt have another human being around it for a 15 mile radius. The same party that likes to put an Halo around their head's because they are against abortion wouldnt want to raise taxes so that the amount of unwanted babies that are born can be taken care of at state run facilities.
This party goes on and on about how evil it would be if the Health insurance industry is relegated and how socialist that is, but then they cheer there asses of for a Governor of a state that is the most socialist in the Union.

Obama does sound like an idiot when not reading from a teleprompter. Every sentence has an errr or aaaa... pause in it and he has made ridiculous statements that the media ignores. Your perspective is colored by your bias (as is everyone elses).

his naive approach to foreign affairs
are you talking about obama's support for bombing tribal areas of pakistan if needed, a position opposed by john mccain, and one that even the bush government has come around to?

No I am talking about his saying that he will talk to Ahmedinajad, Chavez etc..without predictions, about his statement that "Iran is a tiny country" never mind that they have vowed to wipe Israel off the map.

are you talking about obama's insistence on a definitive timetable (or do you prefer horizon - the always visible, but never quite there, apparition) for withdrawal from iraq, a position opposed by john mccain, and one that even the bush government has come around to?

No I am talking about his flip-flopping more than a Chinese Gymnast at first opposing the war, opposing the surge, then agreeing to listening to the generals on the ground, then flip-flopping again. And its great to see an Obama supporter quote Bush in a positive way. So you agree with bush's judgement when it suits you

An Alaskan with a NRA card can never relate to the fear people from poor areas in cities go through. The amount of selfishness and ignorance in the ways they speak to people against guns are stunning. It takes ball's the size of hot air balloons to look at poor children in the street's of Chicago and explain to them that the reason you dont want to ban AK-47's is because you like to shoot moose with them at your secluded forest that doesnt have another human being around it for a 15 mile radius.

By that yardstick of personal experience, Obama should never be the supreme commander of the US military as he's never had any military or combat experience and so can never relate to such matters.

167 · DesiDude said

about his statement that "Iran is a tiny country" never mind that they have vowed to wipe Israel off the map.

This statement that says that Iran is a tiny country compared to nuclear armed Russia? I know, it is SO incorrect!

And its great to see an Obama supporter quote Bush in a positive way. So you agree with bush's judgement when it suits you

No, I agree with bush's judgment when he finally comes around to doing the right thing.

at first opposing the war, opposing the surge, then agreeing to listening to the generals on the ground, then flip-flopping again.

Yes, how dare he adapt to changing facts? Much better to keep doubling down on the same wrong strategy.

As both my previous quoted comments show, you seem to think that changing one's opinion when facts change is a bad thing.

166 · Vic said

and he has made ridiculous statements that the media ignores.

Examples please.

Also, why does God hate the republicans so much? Sending a hurricane to disrupt their party and their to-be-triumphant unveiling of that first among Christians, Sarah Palin?

What am I to make of this? I thought Christ wanted me to vote for Cain.

165 · ShallowThinker said

I also think the Republican party is out of touch with real people. An Alaskan with a NRA card can never relate to the fear people from poor areas in cities go through. The amount of selfishness and ignorance in the ways they speak to people against guns are stunning. It takes ball's the size of hot air balloons to look at poor children in the street's of Chicago and explain to them that the reason you dont want to ban AK-47's is because you like to shoot moose with them at your secluded forest that doesnt have another human being around it for a 15 mile radius.

That's a pretty one-sided view of the gun-control issue. Contrary to popular belief, many, MANY black people agree with the NRA on people's right to bear arms. There is a very strong historical argument for African Americans to support the 2nd amendment. Furthermore, in many of these neighborhoods "by the time they arrive, all the dirt done been done." "They" being the police of course. So there are people who maybe don't have as much of a voice who feel more vulnerable because they are being denied their right to protect themselves. Let's not pretend only one side has a heart in this argument.

What weakness, in your view does Palin validate?

Dilettante, Palin represents McCain's weakness with the conservative base, but I agree, let the best ticket win.

i am very eager to hear about this. can you accurately characterize his position on abortion so we can understand how extreme it is?

Doctor, his decision to vote 'Present' twice and 'No' once on several Born Alive acts is generally considered extreme even by members of his own party.

It takes ball's the size of hot air balloons to look at poor children in the street's of Chicago and explain to them that the reason you dont want to ban AK-47's is because you like to shoot moose with them at your secluded forest that doesnt have another human being around it for a 15 mile radius. The same party that likes to put an Halo around their head's because they are against abortion wouldnt want to raise taxes so that the amount of unwanted babies that are born can be taken care of at state run facilities.

shallowthinker makes some deeppoints... but all logic fails against faith and myth.

172 · NotADemocrat said

Doctor, his decision to vote 'Present' twice and 'No' once on several Born Alive acts is generally considered extreme even by members of his own party.

Here's the real story on the born alive acts, which were repeatedly introduced with the proponents refusing to add language reaffirming Roe v Wade. All they had to do was to say yes to language on this front for the bill to pass.

Also, how about a complete accounting of his record on abortion rights?

Look, I know some people believe that there should be no constitutional right to abortion, and that there should be a blanket ban on women's rights to have an abortion. If that is the issue you want to vote on, McCain's your guy. He's party line on that issue, and has even gone past the usual pretence of judicial qualifications to say that he will appoint judges who will overturn Roe v Wade to the Supreme Court. And Palin is even further conservative than him on that issue, so you can trust the

But unless you believe that an opposition to the ban automatically implies a free-for-all abortion party, I don't see how Obama's position can be characterized as extreme. This is true for most Dems, ans specifically for Obama, I don't see how a full examination of his record, which I have linked to above, paints him as extreme.

and he has made ridiculous statements that the media ignores.

Examples please.

149 · NotADemocrat said

Contrary to popular belief, many of us don't feel we have to wait for government in order to either help ourselves OR help other people. We're self-starters regardless of who gets elected.

To talk about self-starters in the US is close to delusional. From the founding, the US has always been an example of the beneficial power of enlightened and accountable government. As for Palin you are so off the facts that you are anything but non-partisan. The Bridge-to-Nowhere story has already been dissected in the last 24 hours. And being a conservative and Republican there is no way you can be bi/non-partisan. This is a base election not because it is a desperation gambit because McSame has tried to buck the Republican machine and proven utterly incapable. The Republicans laid the foundations of pandering to the base starting with Nixon's Southern Strategy, followed by Reagan's notorious concession to "states' rights" aka license to be racist in Philadelhia, Ms, in 1980. The Republicans find their greatest traction form an utterly loyal and unthinking base on the far right where no amount of pander is unacceptable. The Democrats cannot run a base election by going to the extreme left because the loons on that side do not believe in voting. This election was always about Obama's race, and the Republican machine has spared no effort to push its message of hate through. Isn't it funny that all the epithets hurled at Obama were hurled at Dr. King too in his day? Communist, leftist. elitist, socialist, big governmentist etc? And Ramesh Ponnuru on Obama? What a joke! That's coming from the same stable where Jonah Goldberg in Reaganian fashion dubs FDR a fascist! And if this is about having a woman for veep, and a smart one at that, why not Condoleeza Rice?

As for abortion there are quite a few of us who don't get our "news" from bilge soaked rags like NRO. The US has a disproportionately high incidence of teen pregnancy which correlates very strongly with its dismal record of sex education.

It is a grim reminder of how outside the enlightened mid-Atlantic, New England, the West Coast and the large urban centers the US entertains some very regressive and ill-informed notons, harboring a very strong contempt for intellect and caliber. It is also no coincidence that it is the progressive regions of the US that offer all the best that this country has to offer.

Is it just me, or does any one else wonder why "new user" handle's pop up more on some comment threads vs others. In my next comment , when I wan't to post batshyte crazy stuff, I'm gonna be somebody else.

Contrary to popular belief, many, MANY black people agree with the NRA on people's right to bear arms.

Let's see, I could be Huey (but that handles taken), or Angela but I don't want to co-opt the New Yorker or give credence to the equation that afro=not ready for the white house.

175 · Vic said

Just a few

Apart from obvious slips of the tongue like 10000/57 states/sioux city, do you have something substantive?

To help you, here are some examples of clear scary failures to understand basics.

She overcame the corrupt REPUBLICANS in her state in order to get government to start working for the people she served.

Too bad Palin's already under investigation for ethics violations after less than 2 years on the job.

She took the private jet from the previous administration and put it on ebay, giving the profits to native Alaskans.

Maybe she should have given the profits to the 8,000 people in her hometown, considering she mismanaged Wasilla so badly it ended up $20 million in debt.

She said no to that ridiculous Bridge to Nowhere.

After supporting it during her 2006 gubernatorial campaign.

I don't think McCain ever vetted her. If it comes down to judgment, he is an IDIOT.

Vikram by my yardstick I ask people to be as in touch as possible. If I see Obama saying things like "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" and putting on army fatigues while saying he is going to kick the worlds ass, I too would say he is out of touch. Why is this out of touch? Because he is showing disrespect to soldiers who have to carry these things out and he is pretending to be a "know it all." On the other hand the Governor of Alaska is putting out video's of herself smiling while shooting automatic rifles at a shooting range while a crowad cheer's her on, while in real life automatic rifles are killing kids and teenagers and oldmen in the streets of cities everyday sending people running is all direction's crying and screaming. That to me is disrespectful to these people and that show's me that you dont really know the damage these things are doing to people's lives.

I believe that Obama can relate to more segments of America then the other canidate's can, much like a well traveled person can relate to the world better then a not so well traveled person and that is all I need in a President.

Is history siding with Obama's economic plan? IHT

...The table also shows that families at the 95th percentile fared almost as well under Republican presidents as under Democrats (1.90 percent growth per year, versus 2.12 percent), giving them little stake, economically, in election outcomes. But the stakes were enormous for the less well-to-do. Families at the 20th percentile fared much worse under Republicans than under Democrats (0.43 percent versus 2.64 percent). Eight years of growth at an annual rate of 0.43 percent increases a family's income by just 3.5 percent, while eight years of growth at 2.64 percent raises it by 23.2 percent.

I want a president who can pronounce "nuclear", who knows that Czechoslovakia is no more, that won't rationlize every decision based on groupthink developed in solitary confinement 35 years ago, who is confident but not certain in supranatural ways.

Palin represents McCain's weakness with the conservative base

I don't think McCain ever vetted her. If it comes down to judgment, he is an IDIOT.

To talk about self-starters in the US is close to delusional. From the founding, the US has always been an example of the beneficial power of enlightened and accountable government.

Jyotsana, I know many people think they are being helpful with their "government must help" outlook... and in many cases, I agree that the government should be able to provide people with very basic help provided they cannot get it elsewhere. But does anyone else see how incredibly depressing this outlook can be? What if Obama doesn't get elected? What if a democrat isn't elected for another 4 to 8 years? What if a Dem is elected, but they can't agree on a good government solution? What if they come up with a solution, but it's a miserable failure that is hard to amend *coughnclbcough*? The idea that government is the only solution is scary for someone like me, because it means that the communities I feel closest to (black and latino) are pretty much screwed if the stars don't line up for the democrats.

Also, I've never said I was non-partisan, but I have tried to be fairly objective in this thread since it seemed like the Republican spin was almost completely missing, accurate or not.

Is it just me, or does any one else wonder why "new user" handle's pop up more on some comment threads vs others. In my next comment , when I wan't to post batshyte crazy stuff, I'm gonna be somebody else.

Let's see, I could be Huey (but that handles taken), or Angela but I don't want to co-opt the New Yorker or give credence to the equation that afro=not ready for the white house.

So is this a new SM rule that says the only people who can comment are regulars? I've actually been reading and commenting at SM for several years now, but I don't use my old handle. Largely because I no longer have time to be a regular participant (hence the Sunday commenting boom), but also because my views are so different now that I'm older. I don't think there is anything "batshyte crazy" about saying there are black people who strongly value their 2nd amendment rights. I may be giving away too much about who I am here, but a large part of the reason why my family is in the north now is because they lived in the area of NC that the book Negroes with Guns takes place in. My family fled to the north because of the KKK, and those stories about how black people had to bear arms to protect themselves have been passed down. What's crazy to me is how easily you dismiss an argument without bothering to learn any of the history behind it.

And btw, I have an afro. If I weren't convinced government was the roundabout way towards change, I'd happily wear it on my way to elected office. And I'm sure I'd make sure I was ready to lead.

Since i have a reputation for being disingenuous, and therefore Machiavellian, I would like to proffer my prescient advice to the candidates:

A. Obama
1. Reserve Judgment on Palin, saying you don't know too much about her and would like to review her record first. This make you look fair and considerate, while slyly advancing the meme that she's radically off the radar and inexperienced.
2. Attack her attackers as misogynist, including your own party. There's plenty out there: she's a beauty queen, she's anti-woman, her kid is not hers, how can she run for VP when she has a down syndrome kid to take care off. This makes you look generous, chivalrous even, helps you with genuine PUMA's upset that you didn't speak up for HIll, and bolsters your bipartisan change image.

B. McCain
1. Bypass 60 minutes and have you first joint appearance with Palin on Oprah. Makes Obama/Biden appearance look elitist. You look ballsy for going into enemy territory. That's where the real power is amway.

So is this a new SM rule that says the only people who can comment are regulars? I've actually been reading and commenting at SM for several years now, but I don't use my old handle.

Was your old handle that incendiary?

the views expressed by 'dillettante', are not approved or endorsed by SM. I was just curious about the distrubtion of comments on certain threads and the one off handles associated with them. Kinda like single issue handles.

And btw, I have an afro.I'd happily wear it on my way to elected office. And I'm sure I'd make sure I was ready to lead.

Would you wear it to shatter glass ceilings into 18 million pieces? What would the conservative base think?
As I indicated above, we (I do at least) know how liberals view Afro's

laters

On the other hand the Governor of Alaska is putting out video's of herself smiling while shooting automatic rifles at a shooting range while a crowad cheer's her on, while in real life automatic rifles are killing kids and teenagers and oldmen in the streets of cities everyday sending people running is all direction's crying and screaming. That to me is disrespectful to these people and that show's me that you dont really know the damage these things are doing to people's lives.

Um ok... I think you miss the context here. She was at a legal range, firing a legal weapon. Not as if she was walking through the streets of inner-city Chicago shooting up people or supporting such an act. When you consider the fact that all of the people running for office are surrounded by heavily armed security details to protect their lives and their family members' lives 24/7 , when people in the gang violence prone areas complain about being unable to get police to help them, doesn't that seem hypocritical & elitist to you too ? So what's your point ?

And how is it that you don't seem to call out Biden on his hypocrisy when he's sponsored a draconian bill that predates the Patriot Act by 6 years ? And his support of privacy invading laws, the very things that Democrats have assailed the Republicans on ?

And btw, I have an afro.I'd happily wear it on my way to elected office. And I'm sure I'd make sure I was ready to lead.

you're amy holmes!

Was your old handle that incendiary?

Doubtful. More me avoiding the questions of didn't you say this or that.

you're amy holmes!

LOL. Good guess considering. She's actually pro-choice, and she's pretty much cut all her hair off. I'm no one famous, I just don't like leaving really personal details on the internet like that.

Roe v. Wade is never going to be changed. I know the liberals keep bringing this issue whenever there is a 'Pro-lifer' on the ticket. It's an issue that has been already decided, and no judiciary is going to touch that volatile issue again.

Who are you kidding? The agenda of the Republican core constituency is precisely that. And they are very outspoken about that.

Why do you think Bush tried to appoint the laughably unqualified Harriet Meiers to the Supreme Court? McCain picking Sarah Palin is more of the same.

NotADemocrat:

I don't like the demonization of oil companies who already have slim profit margins.

Wow. This is such a stupidly brazen falsehood. Anyone with a clue knows that oil companies are among the most profitable businesses of all and that they are enjoying record profits in recent times:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2008-08-01-big-oil-company-earnings_N.htm

"Big Oil's most profitable quarter ever: $51.5 billion.........Chevron and Total wrapped up a string of gargantuan, record-breaking earnings reports from oil companies on Friday, a stretch in which six of the major international oil companies topped $50 billion in combined profit for the first time. While the profits of unparalleled size have brought withering criticism from Washington and disgust from consumers across the country, very few were surprised."

Valmiki, read carefully: Profit margins, not profits. I'll give you that they are profitable, though I'm not sure they should be punished for that when profits go to their shareholders. Shareholders many of whom happen to be ordinary, middle class Americans hoping to make money off a sound investment.

Oil companies aren't as profitable as you think

I sometimes get the impression that people think oil executives hold clandestine meetings where they unilaterally decide to set the price of oil and gas in order to maximize their profits. After maniacally laughing about how they are gouging the American public, they then go swimming in pools of gold ala Scrooge McDuck.

But there's a problem with that theory. Even though many oil companies are reporting record profits, many people forget just how expensive it is for energy companies to engage in the oil business.

The average net profit margin for the S&P Energy sector, according to figures from Thomson Baseline, is 9.7%. The average for the S&P 500 is 8.5%. So yes, energy companies are more profitable than many others...but not by an inordinate amount.

Google, for example, reported a net profit margin of 25% in its most recent quarter. Should we have an online advertising windfall profit tax?

189 · Valmiki said

Roe v. Wade is never going to be changed. I know the liberals keep bringing this issue whenever there is a 'Pro-lifer' on the ticket. It's an issue that has been already decided, and no judiciary is going to touch that volatile issue again.

Who are you kidding? The agenda of the Republican core constituency is precisely that. And they are very outspoken about that.

Why do you think Bush tried to appoint the laughably unqualified Harriet Meiers to the Supreme Court? McCain picking Sarah Palin is more of the same.

Since you bring up Harriet Meiers, this is what Harry Ried, who suggested her name had to say about her, ""I continue to believe that Harriet Miers received a raw deal. She is an accomplished lawyer, a trailblazer for women and a strong advocate of legal services for the poor. Not only was she denied the up-down vote that my Republican colleagues say every nominee deserves, but she was never even afforded the chance to make her case to the Judiciary Committee."

Harry Reid is no Republican...and there is no way Roe Vs. Wade will be overturned. Its been settled and no judiciary wants to visit that question again.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/13001.html

"John McCain was aiming to make history with his pick of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, and historians say he succeeded. Presidential scholars say she appears to be the least experienced, least credentialed person to join a major-party ticket in the modern era. So unconventional was McCain’s choice that it left students of the presidency literally “stunned,” in the words of Joel Goldstein, a St. Louis University law professor and scholar of the vice presidency. “Being governor of a small state for less than two years is not consistent with the normal criteria for determining who’s of presidential caliber,” said Goldstein. “I think she is the most inexperienced person on a major-party ticket in modern history,” said presidential historian Matthew Dallek.

"Palin has no experience in national office. Before becoming governor in December 2006, she served as a council member and mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, which had a population of slightly more than 5,000 during her time in office..........if elected vice president, Palin would appear to have the least amount of experience in federal office or as a governor since John W. Kern, Democrat William Jennings Bryan’s 1908 running mate, who had served for four years in the Indiana state Senate and then four more as city solicitor of Indianapolis"

Valmiki, N-A-D specifically said profit margins, not profits, and he/she is correct on that point. However, I really wish all those complaining about windfall taxes also lobby equally hard against all the giant subsidies given to various corporations and lobbies, the oil industry being one good example (defense and agriculture being others).

Railing against government assistance to individuals while allowing government assistance to corporations and special interest groups to go on unchecked (look at pork barrel projects - republicans are as bad as, if not worse, than dems and the reality is that the only time the US has had a budget surplus in the last 28 years is under a democrat), is truly negligent. The reality is that repubs don't do smaller government, they just have big government without asking people to pay for it directly, instead printing money, running up deficits in the process, with all its associated consequences.

It beggars belief that repubs are considered the party of fiscal responsibility, in the face of such an abysmal track record.

189 · Valmiki said

Why do you think Bush tried to appoint the laughably unqualified Harriet Meiers to the Supreme Court?

Because he wanted to reward her for her loyalty. In fact, the virulent opposition from the right wing opinion makers to Harriet Miers was primarily because she wasn't seen to be a reliable champion for their causes because she might not have been conservative enough for their tastes on issues - be it pro-life or anti-aff action or gay rights and so on. It helped them that she was yet another monumentally unqualified appointee of Bush, but that wasn't their problem with her, it was that she wouldn't reliably do their bidding.

I guess Bush thought that his 2004 victory had given him enough political capital to spend, but the evangelicals weren't going to let him get away with somebody who might be only 80% loyal to them, not when they could get somebody like Alito.

180 · ShallowThinker said

On the other hand the Governor of Alaska is putting out video's of herself smiling while shooting automatic rifles at a shooting range while a crowad cheer's her on, while in real life automatic rifles are killing kids and teenagers and oldmen in the streets of cities everyday sending people running is all direction's crying and screaming.

Guns are not killing people, people are killing people. Sheesh. Making guns illegal will not eliminate guns, they will only eliminate law abiding people from having guns. Making anything illegal (drugs, guns, books, etc) does not eliminate them it only drives them underground. Criminals will still possess guns. You will also empower new criminal organizations that will sneak guns into this country. I suspect the "war on guns" will be similar to the "war on drugs".

180 · ShallowThinker said

On the other hand the Governor of Alaska is putting out video's of herself smiling while shooting automatic rifles at a shooting range while a crowad cheer's her on

think about it this way. this time, when the vice president shoots an 80 year man in the face, the old man won't live through the humiliation of apologizing for being shot.

190 · Valmiki said

"Big Oil's most profitable quarter ever: $51.5 billion.........Chevron and Total wrapped up a string of gargantuan, record-breaking earnings reports from oil companies on Friday, a stretch in which six of the major international oil companies topped $50 billion in combined profit for the first time. While the profits of unparalleled size have brought withering criticism from Washington and disgust from consumers across the country, very few were surprised."

Yes those evil corporations are trying to make as much money as possible!!! What an outrage!!!

This isn't the worst of it. I suspect that their tens of thousands of corporations spread all over America trying to make as much money as possible!!!

When will this stop?

When will our corporations stop trying to maximize profits?

198 · JGandhi said

When will our corporations stop trying to maximize profits?

Yes, and why doesn't our government subsidize them even more than it does currently? After all, it might be taxpayer money, but what's important is corporate bottomlines.

196 · JGandhi said

Guns are not killing people, people are killing people. Sheesh. Making guns illegal will not eliminate guns, they will only eliminate law abiding people from having guns. Making anything illegal (drugs, guns, books, etc) does not eliminate them it only drives them underground. Criminals will still possess guns. You will also empower new criminal organizations that will sneak guns into this country. I suspect the "war on guns" will be similar to the "war on drugs".

Tell me something I haven't already read on a bumber sticker, thanks.

200 · cc said

Tell me something I haven't already read on a bumber sticker, thanks.

Individuals are able to buy missle launchers, missles, bombs, grenades and even BAMS off the black market. Do you really think you can take guns of the street by making them illegal? Handarms are easy to maufacture, easy to transport and easy to buy.

Valmiki, read carefully: Profit margins, not profits. I'll give you that they are profitable

OK fine, lets look at profit margins. You are still wrong to claim that their profit margins are "slim". Your own link acknowledges that while not inordinately so, "yes, energy companies are more profitable than many others".

If you are such a champion of oil sector profits, Sarah Palin is not your gal. She raised taxes on the oil companies and gave that money to all Alaskans to help them cover the higher price of gas. She is no trickle down elitist country club republican. She is a populist of the Pat Buchanan mold. In fact according to Buchanan she was his supporter when he ran for President (that will lose the Republicans some jewish votes).

182 · NotADemocrat said

Jyotsana, I know many people think they are being helpful with their "government must help" outlook... and in many cases, I agree that the government should be able to provide people with very basic help provided they cannot get it elsewhere. But does anyone else see how incredibly depressing this outlook can be? What if Obama doesn't get elected? What if a democrat isn't elected for another 4 to 8 years? What if a Dem is elected, but they can't agree on a good government solution? What if they come up with a solution, but it's a miserable failure that is hard to amend *coughnclbcough*? The idea that government is the only solution is scary for someone like me, because it means that the communities I feel closest to (black and latino) are pretty much screwed if the stars don't line up for the democrats.

NAD, it is not that the government must help or some such thing. The government is an essential part of the success story that is the USA from the founding. Though I hate hypothetical arguments, let's say without the government, the US would not be commanding =/> 25% of the world's GDP for the last 130 years. What if Obama does not get elected? Well the last eight years will seem like a picnic compared to the next 8 years to come as McSame hands over the keys of the state to assorted kleptocrats from lobbyists, and social blowhards. And what if a Dem is elected and can't agree on good governance? Well we will repeat the mistakes we made decades ago. We laughed Jimmy Carter, man of learning out of office and appointed a senile half-wit joker in his place, who slept thtough the great opportunity to initiate a comprehensive renewable energy program. That is why we are in the mess we are in today. Worse still we have no leverage with resource glutton like China (partly because of our opwn greed for cheap trinkets and baubles) and budding gluttons like India and Brazil. 16 years back Hillary made a sensible proposal for universal health care, almost the sort that other developed nations have, that delivers outcomes superior to ours at a fraction of our per-capita costs - the State of Massachussetts spends about as much on health insurace backoffice costs as all of Canada. We all partied calling Hillary vile names - you bet Republicans have a deep seated "we may loose our jewels to this aggressive woman" fear - and helped sink an eminently thoughtful solution. The health insurance sector has grown like a gluttonus colossus and delivers piss-poor outcomes. So that's what will happen. And these days things happen very quickly. Forget Carter, take the scene 8 years ago when a stolen election pitchforked the Dumbya-Duplicitous'ya duo to power. There was still time to commence our renewable energy effort. Nothing was done. Darn not even nuclear energy! How dumb can that be? And thanks for your solicitous concern for Latinos and African-Americans. The republicans are always on the lookout for Uncle Toms and Tio Joses and definitely manage to find a Clarence Thomas here and an Alberto Gonzalez there. But you should credit the objects of your close feelings with some intelligence. There will always be a Dr. King a Thurgood Marshall and a Cesar Chavez.

Here is an excerpt from Marshall J. on the bicentennial celebration he stayed away from

...cannot accept this invitation, for I do not believe that the meaning of the Constitution was forever "fixed" at the Philadelphia Convention. Nor do I find the wisdom, foresight, and sense of justice exhibited by the Framers particularly profound. To the contrary, the government they devised was defective from the start, requiring several amendments, a civil war, and momentous social transformation to attain the system of constitutional government, and its respect for the individual freedoms and human rights, we hold as fundamental today. When contemporary Americans cite "The Constitution," they invoke a concept that is vastly different from what the Framers barely began to construct two centuries ago.

And Dr.King in Memphis hours before he was killed,

Memphis Negroes are almost entirely a working people. Our needs are identical with labor's needs -- decent wages, fair working conditions, livable housing, old age security, health and welfare measures, conditions in which families can grow, have education for their children and respect in the community. That is why Negroes support labor's demands and fight laws which curb labor. That is why the labor-hater and labor-baiter is virtually always a twin-headed creature spewing anti-Negro epithets from one mouth and anti-labor propaganda from the other mouth. and this too
I would like to live a long life," he said. "Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And he's allowed me to go up to the mountain, and I've looked over, and I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight that we as a people will get to the promised land.

These are real issues and the next time ask Ramesh Ponnuru if he has even read these speeches before he launches on another poorly informed rant.

194 · the doctor said

Railing against government assistance to individuals while allowing government assistance to corporations and special interest groups to go on unchecked... It beggars belief that repubs are considered the party of fiscal responsibility, in the face of such an abysmal track record.

I think this is sort of misleading, as there are many conservatives and others on the right who absolutely believed that Bear Stearns should not have been bailed out. And many are annoyed at the tea leaves that point to similar bail outs for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Whether or not Republicans actually stick to their conservative, small government values is a toss up. It is also why a McCain/Palin ticket seems so perfect to many conservatives. You're talking about two republicans who, though imperfect, have great track records holding everyone responsible, including corporations.

Yes those evil corporations are trying to make as much money as possible!!! What an outrage!!!

This isn't the worst of it. I suspect that their tens of thousands of corporations spread all over America trying to make as much money as possible!!!

When will this stop?

When will our corporations stop trying to maximize profits?

Hilarious.

201 · JGandhi said

Individuals are able to buy missle launchers, missles, bombs, grenades and even BAMS off the black market.

These should be made legal too. The point of the second amendment was to protect the citizenry from a malicious government, which certainly has access to all these weapons and much much more. Why leave our responsible shootizens in harm's way like this?

199 · the doctor said

Yes, and why doesn't our government subsidize them even more than it does currently? After all, it might be taxpayer money, but what's important is corporate bottomlines.

I am against corporate subsidies. Remember that agriculture subsidies are kept in place by an unholy alliance of Republican AND Democratic politicians.

Either tax or subsidize is a false dichotomy. We could choose to do neither.

Also it is totally ridiculous to tax big oil in "revenge" for other corporations getting subsidies.

I'm not how the picture of fat people is related to the issue of taxing oil corporations. Do you suspect of oil corporations of secretly making people fat so its harder for them to walk instead of drive? Please explain the latest theory, I haven't been keeping up with The Nation. Thanks.

206 · JGandhi said

Also it is totally ridiculous to tax big oil in "revenge" for other corporations getting subsidies.

Remember that agriculture subsidies are kept in place by an unholy alliance of Republican AND Democratic politicians.

Yes, big oil clearly isn't getting any subsidies. (you do realize that pork isn't funding only for the pig industry, right?) Do you read the comments that you respond to? Or just make asinine jabs?

I am against corporate subsidies.

Good, given that they are a clear and present reality and have been for a long time, I am sure you will complain about them as frequently as you do about taxes, if not more. I look forward to seeing your comments on subsidies.

These should be made legal too. The point of the second amendment was to protect the citizenry from a malicious government, which certainly has access to all these weapons and much much more. Why leave our responsible shootizens in harm's way like this?

Absolutely... just as the First Amendment should allow you to yell "Fire !" in a crowded theater and sine pornography is also protected under the First Amendment, make child pornography legal too. After all free speech should be equal, no ?

204 · NotADemocrat said

It is also why a McCain/Palin ticket seems so perfect to many conservatives. You're talking about two republicans who, though imperfect, have great track records holding everyone responsible, including corporations.

Palin couldn't even manage the budget of her small town and left it $20M in deficit, and lobbied for pork with the federal govt, far from opposing it. and while running for governor, she was all for BTN

As for McCain, he's repudiated pretty much every honorable position he stood for, so yes, maybe he will stick to his position on earmarks/subsidies, but what's the guarantee, especially when he hardly ever showed up for key votes on the BTN, despite talking a good game.

208 · Vikram said

just as the First Amendment should allow you to yell "Fire !" in a crowded theater and sine pornography is also protected under the First Amendment, make child pornography legal too.

So, pray tell, where is the line drawn for guns?

208 · Vikram said

After all free speech should be equal, no ?

Umm.. the point of those restrictions is to protect the helpless. I am just arguing that the helpless citizenry should be allowed to tote the same arms as our evil government.

I meant... not infringe on others' rights, or protect the helpless.

203 · jyotsana said

And thanks for your solicitous concern for Latinos and African-Americans. The republicans are always on the lookout for Uncle Toms and Tio Joses and definitely manage to find a Clarence Thomas here and an Alberto Gonzalez there. But you should credit the objects of your close feelings with some intelligence. There will always be a Dr. King a Thurgood Marshall and a Cesar Chavez.

If only you'd put this at the beginning of your comment, that way I wouldn't have had to force myself to read your long and incoherent rant so I could be polite and respond to it. Instead, you waited until the last minute to call any black or latino person a race-traitor for not towing the democratic party line. Newsflash: I am ethnically black and latina so these communities aren't "objects" of my feelings, they are family and friends, and I'm sick of waiting around for the "right" people to get elected in order to help change these communities around.

How utterly racist to think that a person's race should completely determine his or her political beliefs. Jerk.

207 · the doctor said

Yes, big oil clearly isn't getting any subsidies. (you do realize that pork isn't funding only for the pig industry, right?) Do you read the comments that you respond to? Or just make asinine jabs?

How about fighting to eliminate subsidies instead of demonizing corporate profits and demanding corporations pay higher taxes for simply being successful? Its a corporation's job to make profits. And lumping in all corporations into one group is counterproductive.

"Good, given that they are a clear and present reality and have been for a long time, I am sure you will complain about them as frequently as you do about taxes, if not more. I look forward to seeing your comments on subsidies."

If someone starts make comments advocating for more corporate subsidies I'll refute those comments. Intellectuals on the right and the left are against subsidies. Most subsidies are approved by politicians (Democratic and Republican)seeking political gain. However many people on the left seem to think that being successful is a crime and its fair game to raise tax rates on a corporation simply because it has increased profits.

154 · dilettante said

That's why the important point about Palin's lack of experience isn't about Palin. It's about McCain. And the question is not how his choice of Palin might complicate his ability to use the "experience" issue, or whether he will have to drop experience as an issue. It's not even about the proper role of experience as an issue. In fact, it's not about experience at all

If experience in government is so important then every President in this history of the USA would have been great

And if this is about having a woman for veep, and a smart one at that, why not Condoleeza Rice?

Every idea has a lifespan in terms of its utility as an ideological rhetoric. The experience issue falls into this category. Republicans know that they cannot stretch the experience issue too far without shooting themselves in the foot especially considering that in spite of inexperience, Obama has pedigree, talks very knowledgably and has a good grasping power. They also know that it can be well countered by talking about other inexperienced Presidents in the past ( Reagen) who have done well. The initial harping on the experience factor was to highlight the negatives in the short-term. People who analyze objectively and take decisions can find faults in Obama, McCain, Palin and Biden. There is a whole group of people who are attracted to Obama not by his pedigree by his whole aura and appeal. To counter this "appeal" and "media" factor which seems to play such a large role in elections today, Palin is not such a bad choice. She will attract a large group of people on the center and right "leaning" folks who sometimes have trouble identifying with Obama (apart from adding some energy and oophm to his base constituency ). Note when media plays an important role, controversial candidates can sway many independent minded people more than staid candidates like Romney. Rice cannot be chosen coz the campiagn will lean towards dissociating from Bush admin/past/.
I think it Palin is probably a gamble/risk choice that has large potential for payoffs.

So, pray tell, where is the line drawn for guns?

Right next to where the line is drawn for the First Amendment. What you see in a Pg-13 film today would quite likely be considered "obscene" 50 years ago, despite the First Amendment and would have had the film maker tried in court on such a charge. Similarly you could buy a machine gun without a license till 1934. Neither of those two situations exist today as the lines have been redrawn. Ted Bundy said it was pornography that compelled him to attack women and kill them. Do you believe him ? Others also have claimed that pornography has been linked to crimes against women. Yet it is protected by the First Amendment and has the subject of numerous debates over the years. The Second Amendment is no different. There are always those who will blame society's criminal problems on it.

Lets face it, the fundamental causes of the current malaise are three fold: too much deregulation of the economy, too much aggressive unilateralism in foreign policy and too much reliance on oil (mostly foreign). Obama has a much clearer vision than McCain on how to bring about change on all three fronts. It is no surprise that better educated americans prefer him to McCain.

The Republicans on the other hand are going to make this election a referendum on abortion, guns, biblical fundamentalism.....with the everpresent undercurrent of racism. Obama may well lose this election because too many americans see race as the most important issue.

214 · JGandhi said

And lumping in all corporations into one group is counterproductive.

umm, you used the term big oil. And here are clearly articulated subsidies for the oil industry. You can make the (very reasonable) argument that these widespread, huge, and systemic (meaning they are hard to remove - I don't see a coalition of lawmakers eliminating the big contributors of these subsidies) subsidies that the oil companies get from the U.S. taxpayers means that they have a responsibility to the taxpayers to keep oil prices reasonable. In fact, this is one of the biggest cases made for subsidies in the first place. Since the government has no way to force oil companies to keep prices reasonable, the best they can do is recover money from them by taxes.

Now, I am not a supporter of the subsidies in the first place, but in the current situation, taxes are a potential real solution that disincentivize oil companies from keeping their current high prices, whereas elimination of subsidies is a mere academic discussion.

so, the reality is that under a republican admin, people bear the brunt of rising oil prices with no recourse, whereas a dem admin might have some chance of recovering some of these giant profits.

What is needed though is a bigger policy solution that forces energy companies to invest in new sources (hint: offshore drilling is hardly a solution), cheaper extraction technologies, alternative energy sources, and so on, instead of just sitting back and counting the dollars, which is what they are doing now.

Umm.. the point of those restrictions is to protect the helpless. I am just arguing that the helpless citizenry should be allowed to tote the same arms as our evil government.

Actually that is an interesting point that I think has actually been argued for. But the case seems to be that the Second Amendment applies only same class of weapons that it covered when it was written, i.e small arms and small bore weapons. While the small arms of today are far more accurate and powerful than those in the 18th Century, they are still essentially the same class of "line-of-sight" weapons. Bombs and missiles are not in that class. Oddly enough, while the other amendments have been extended to cover vastly different situations (the protection of pornography under the First Amendment as I mentioned) than when the Constitution was written, the Second Amendment has in a way remained static.

Newsflash: I am ethnically black and latina

I didnt know there were non-desis on this blog.

219 · Vikram said

the protection of pornography under the First Amendment as I mentioned

porn isn't constitutionally protected yet, vikram. better example is that the internet enjoys the same protection as newpapaers.

I wonder who will benefit politically from Hurrican Gustav - McCain or Obama? If its another Katrina, then I think it will have significant impact on the presidential election.

211 · the doctor said

Umm.. the point of those restrictions is to protect the helpless.

child porn and (falsely) yelling fire in a crowded theatre are not afforded constitutional protection not b/c we need those laws to protect the helpless, but rather b/c all freedom (rights) are limited by the freedom of others.

yelling fire is tantamount to initiating force against another individual since, by the "reasonable person" standard, it creates a clear a present danger to another individual. ditto for going up to someone and saying "i'm about to kill you" or telling a blind a man to "turn left" knowing he'll fall off a cliff if he does. the fact that you used speech to kill or harm another does not entitle you to constitutional protection.

likewise a reporter cannot break into a person's home in order to get a story and claim "freedom of press" b/c he just violated the property rights of another. child porns esay, i don't have to spell it out for you.

i bring this up b/c its important to understand the general paradigm under which the bill of rights was written. within that paradigm, there is room for argument, but the constitution nevertheless institutionalizes classic liberalism. it not blank slate.

Biden: Palin's good-looking

“She’s good-looking,” he quipped.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/31/biden-palins-good-looking/

-------------------------------------------------------

I just read that Palin is against interracial marriage (probably interracial dating as well). McCain just lost 1 vote. Most of the girls I dated have been non-desi; I'm not going to let this MILF get into the white house and stop me from trying out and tasting different flavors!!

Can you imagine going to a club and being stuck with only brown girls?

201 · JGandhi said

"Individuals are able to buy missle launchers, missles, bombs, grenades and even BAMS off the black market. Do you really think you can take guns of the street by making them illegal? Handarms are easy to maufacture, easy to transport and easy to buy."

Better.

You don't sound like a bumper sticker. Now you sound like a bullet-point memo.

225 · cc said

You don't sound like a bumper sticker. Now you sound like a bullet-point memo.

how about: is that a starters pistol in your pocket, or are you a desi guy?

223 · Manju said

not b/c we need those laws to protect the helpless, but rather b/c all freedom (rights) are limited by the freedom of others.

which is exactly what i said.

227 · the doctor said

which is exactly what i said.

hey, ur not as dumb as u look, doc ;-)

224 · TheBrownChamp said

I just read that Palin is against interracial

don't believe the hype. the stuff being said about palin is quite shocking, almost panicky and quite unnecessary if you ask me. Obama has an opportunity to rise to his promise of transcending politics and come to her defence. would probably be a brillaint political move. unless of course the stuff is true...

guns don't kill people. bullets kill people.

228 · Manju said

hey, ur not as dumb as u look, doc ;-)

didn't realize i got that much under your skin, manju, that you've been reduced to recycling jv insults. kudos on the plausible deniability with the smiley, though.

231 · the doctor said

. kudos on the plausible deniability with the smiley, though.

ur a scholar and a gentleman, doc ;-)

232 · Manju said

ur a scholar and a gentleman, doc ;-)

It's amateur night at casa manju, I see. Surely you can do better than this?

It's amateur night at casa manju

that you've been reduced to recycling jv insults

i picture a suburban white man (age 30-45) saying something like that. sepiamutiny has a racially diverse group of commenters, i realized that tonite.

233 · the doctor said

It's amateur night at casa manju, I see. Surely you can do better than this?

hillary clinton goes to see the doctor.

hrc: i'm a patholgical liar, doc. can u prescribe me something to help me stop?

the doctor: don't worry hill, it probably just a little post-traumatic stress from all the sniper fire you've dodged.

Vic:

Roe v. Wade is never going to be changed. I know the liberals keep bringing this issue whenever there is a 'Pro-lifer' on the ticket.

You can keep BSing till you are blue in the face but you arent fooling anyone. Here's what McCain says in his website:

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm

"Overturning Roe v. Wade

John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench."

Vic:

Roe v. Wade is never going to be changed. I know the liberals keep bringing this issue whenever there is a 'Pro-lifer' on the ticket.

You can keep BSing till you are blue in the face but you arent fooling anyone. Here's what McCain says in his website:

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm

"Overturning Roe v. Wade

John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench."

218 · the doctor said

umm, you used the term big oil. And here are clearly articulated subsidies for the oil industry.

The article you cited states 4 subsidies:

"reduced corporate income taxes for the oil industry

lower than average sales taxes on gasoline

government funding of programs that primarily benefit the oil industry and motorists

"hidden" environmental costs caused by motor vehicles, namely air, water, and noise pollution"

Of these only the third counts as a subsidy in my opinion, and can you say for sure those particular government programs are a subsidy and does not benefit the public? Not having high taxes on corporations is not the equivalent of subsidizing corporations and every industry produces "hidden" environmental costs. On the whole its not a case of the government writing out huge checks to oil corporations is it?

look at all these nerds arguing over roe vs. wade, government programs and other boring stuff on a sunday nite. y'all must be off tomorrow....too much free time....im bored as well....but im going to work out

manju, that was much better. good job.

the brown champ, maybe when you grow up, you will actually get some of your guesses right. hope school tests turn out better than your hit rate here on sepia.

Of these only the third counts as a subsidy in my opinion

ok. although, it would have made your argument easier if you had just said that none of them counts as a subsidy in your opinion. then, nothing needs to be justified at all.

the brown champ, maybe when you grow up, you will actually get some of your guesses right. hope school tests turn out better than your hit rate here on sepia.

oh ok

218 · the doctor said

so, the reality is that under a republican admin, people bear the brunt of rising oil prices with no recourse, whereas a dem admin might have some chance of recovering some of these giant profits.
What is needed though is a bigger policy solution that forces energy companies to invest in new sources (hint: offshore drilling is hardly a solution), cheaper extraction technologies, alternative energy sources, and so on, instead of just sitting back and counting the dollars, which is what they are doing now.

Oil companies have a profit margin of about 10% per gallon of gas. This means even if oil companies became nonprofit and gas was provided at-cost, $4 gas would drop to $3.60. The amount oil companies make is really pennies on the dollar. Please explain what you think the appropriate profit margin for a oil company ought to be.

The real reason gas prices are rising is rising demand from developing countries along with a reduction in oil output.

Alternative energy sources are being explored by many venture companies

Since i have a reputation for being disingenuous, and therefore Machiavellian, I would like to proffer my prescient advice to the candidates:

A. Obama
1. Reserve Judgment on Palin, saying you don't know too much about her and would like to review her record first. This make you look fair and considerate, while slyly advancing the meme that she's radically off the radar and inexperienced.
2. Attack her attackers as misogynist, including your own party. There's plenty out there: she's a beauty queen, she's anti-woman, her kid is not hers, how can she run for VP when she has a down syndrome kid to take care off. This makes you look generous, chivalrous even, helps you with genuine PUMA's upset that you didn't speak up for HIll, and bolsters your bipartisan change image.

Your concern knows no bounds! And here I thought you really might be a closet Democrat since the party has moved so far to the right. Here is a much simpler way for Obama to win over feminists: point out that all the ways in which she's a token without explicitly saying she's a token - starting with "she opposes women's rights" - for example, she wants to deny rape victims the right to decide for themselves whether to keep the baby of their rapists.

However, I don't think he'll need to do that much except to win over low information voters.

244 · Dr AmNonymous said

Your concern knows no bounds! And here I thought you really might be a closet Democrat since the party has moved so far to the right. Here is a much simpler way for Obama to win over feminists: point out that all the ways in which she's a token without explicitly saying she's a token - starting with "she opposes women's rights" - for example, she wants to deny rape victims the right to decide for themselves whether to keep the baby of their rapists.

The problem with slamming all the critics of Palin on the right is that there will eventually prove to be too many of them. Certainly one can't put Brookhiser and Frum in the same tarring pot with Josh Marshall and other TPM folks and expect Heroic Heartlanders to be convinced that there is some VLWC against Palin.

The ethics charge is much more serious than I thought before, especially since reading it through ongoing-divorce lenses.

Do you actually read these dunces?

Yes, I do. Some dunces' opinion are to be respected given their audience (family members, Hot Air readers.)

Valmiki

John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench."

Its not going to be overturned because judges that give hint of revisiting the issue will never be confirmed. McCain knows this and this is why he also states that "returning the abortion question to the individual states." That is the most they can hope for...in any case no judiciary will revisit a decision. Its creates a dangerous precedent. You set up stage for having every decision revisited and the law of the land being affected by the nomination process. Republican one cycle and liberal the next.

213 · NotADemocrat said

If only you'd put this at the beginning of your comment, that way I wouldn't have had to force myself to read your long and incoherent rant so I could be polite and respond to it. Instead, you waited until the last minute to call any black or latino person a race-traitor for not towing the democratic party line. Newsflash: I am ethnically black and latina so these communities aren't "objects" of my feelings, they are family and friends, and I'm sick of waiting around for the "right" people to get elected in order to help change these communities around.

How utterly racist to think that a person's race should completely determine his or her political beliefs. Jerk.

Since you have not responded to the words of Thurgood Marshall and Dr. King, it is very clear that years of hobnobbing with ignoramuses like Ponnuru and jerks like Jonah Goldberg have robbed you of your critical faculties. You brought the Uncle Tom/Tio Jose reference upon yourself, since it is you who made so much about your concern for Blacks and Latinos. The triumph of the vision of Dr. King and Justice Thurgood Marshall in the 20th century, who along with FDR, are the three most influential thinkers to have emerged from the US, is one of questioning the stasis, refuting platitudes masquerading as ideals, and ripping the mask off a false unity that is used to cover up a rigid structure of oppression, while at the same time holding out the promise of a future where progress and even a struggle of rights is not a zero-sum-game. That is what attracted people like Charlton Heston to the civil rights marches and Barry Goldwater to the Arizona NAACP - of which he was a founding member. Among the many critical functions of government is to act as a neutral arbiter and apportioner, preventing or at least keeping a check on those who have the power to buy anything, economic power, from exercising the power to make laws - wield political power. So a Clarence Thomas who routinely rubber stamps the decisions of an parchment odolator like Scalia is an insult to the ideals that inspired Thurgood Marshall. When Clarence Thomas ignores the country's laws against cruel punishment he trashes the legacy of oppression endured by African-Americans until the 1960s - lynching wasn't illegal until ~1948 or so, and before that it was routine for blacks to be convicted after torture by all-white juries - that Thurgood Marshall fought against all his life. To the extent that it can carry it off, today's republican party exists to enforce a perverse vision of economic conservatism - sustain every structure that preserves the power of inheritance, influence, and luck - social conservatism - sustain every structure that keeps the races pure and the sexes in their respective public and private domains - and security conservatism - where the objective is not peace or security of life and liberty but endless conflict that can be used to drive an enormous machine that can dispense favours to economic conservatives. This perverse vision sees the pain and helplessness of a quadriplegic as a divine blessing and poverty as something noble to be endured as penitence. It is no coincidence that all the smears of Obama that have passed off as campaign advertising from the McSame camp have used all the right code words, innuendos, and subliminal elements. Elitist is but questioning, "How dare that uppity ****** run against us wealthy and influential folks?" As the repug smear machine did in Tennessee in 2006 against Harold Ford, viral videos this time have plenty of clips of Obama mixed with footage of fawning and swooning white women. Why that foul mouthed punk Joe Corsi spends a few pages of his Obama-Nation questioning the consequences of the inter-racial marriages of Obama's mother. Obama's community organising has been equated with black extremism and even an otherwise sane Chris Hitchens made an ass of himself (after a cursory read of Michelle Robinson's Princeton paper) that Michelle is a black power advocate. My friend an extremely high proportion of the voting population of African-Americans and Hispanics have now endorsed Obama, so next time you trot out a smear handed out to you by your repub handlers remember that while you may be smearing at best about 50% of the white electorate, you are smearing over 80% of the black and latino electorate. And BTW that Karl Rovian gambit of playing blacks and latinos against each other is dangerous, both may turn their backsforever on the repug party.

McSame at the Pearly Gates...lines up after HRC and Willie...sees them both walk away towards heaven
protests,

"But you see HRC may have lied about the sniper and Willie about Lewinsky. They did a great many good things. But you lied about voting for MLK Jr. Day."

"But I have always been in favour of racial amity and have been an admirer of MLK Jr. and yes I did vote for MLK Day!" thunders McSame

But St.Peter, "How could you McSame. You were a POW for 5.5 years. You couldn't raise your hand!

Jyotsana...OT What do you think of lefty bloggers falsely attacking Palin's daughter of having given birth to the Down's Syndrome kid. That is perhaps one of the lowest of lows I have seen in politics. I don't see anyone from the left dennouncing it....Heck they are celebrating because hurricane Gustav happens to come ashore during Republican Convention. Its all about power. The left chooses to get it by using class envy, and blaming the more successful.

249 · Vic said

Heck they are celebrating because hurricane Gustav happens to come ashore during Republican Convention.

Oh, just like Focus on the Family or some other rightie fundie nutjob group was praying for rain during Obama's acceptance speech?

249 · Vic said

What do you think of lefty bloggers falsely attacking Palin's daughter of having given birth to the Down's Syndrome kid. That is perhaps one of the lowest of lows I have seen in politics.

Not jyotsana, and I really wish the lefty bloggers would stop raising this issue based on as yet unsubstantiated rumors. That said, falsely attacking with babies as cannon fodder is an honorable mainstream American political tradition, so let's not give far lefty bloggers all the credit.

Heck they are celebrating because hurricane Gustav happens to come ashore during Republican Convention.

Well, as atheists, all we have is celebrations, not prayers.

249 · Vic said

Jyotsana...OT What do you think of lefty bloggers falsely attacking Palin's daughter of having given birth to the Down's Syndrome kid. That is perhaps one of the lowest of lows I have seen in politics. I don't see anyone from the left dennouncing it....Heck they are celebrating because hurricane Gustav happens to come ashore during Republican Convention. Its all about power. The left chooses to get it by using class envy, and blaming the more successful.

Who are the "lefty bloggers" in question? There are some like DailyKos - that treasure trove of information and analysis - who like to call themselves "leftist" simply because they stand opposed to the other bunch of guys who call themselves "rightist". There's nothing there. To the extent Palin's coverup is true a leftist supposed and otherwise would question Palin's "family values" hypocrisy and judgement in advocating "abstinence only" "education". Just as in the case of Jamie Lynn Spears's mom who was writing a book on "********* family values" Check out the DailyKos for very detailed info on Hurricane Gustav the kind that the "deep thinkers" on NRO would make no sense of. Right now on the community spittoon "The Corner" on NRO Ponnuru is eating his words after insisting that Wassila houses more people than the State of Delaware. There are of course tonnes of smear merchants on all sides, only on the Dems' side they don't run campaigns are at best marginal cheerleaders. On the repug side smear the other side is a way of life, and stock-in-trade.

Not jyotsana,

what i meant was that i am not jyotsana, but was just responding to your comment.

Typical response....

Defend despicable behavior by deflecting or pointing out another (imagined or otherwise) by the other side.

Defend despicable behavior by deflecting or pointing out another (imagined or otherwise) by the other side.

Hey, I'm just being like McCain in riding the high horse and claiming the low road at the same time... ;-)

250 · delurker said

Oh, just like Focus on the Family or some other rightie fundie nutjob group was praying for rain during Obama's acceptance speech?

While I think that is an offensive and stupid use of prayer, I don't think you can compare harmless rain with a hurricane. The comparison is a serious reach.

256 · NotADemocrat said

I don't think you can compare harmless rain with a hurricane.

Naah, we're talking about umbrella-aint-going-to-help-you-rain, swamp-the-intersections-rain, rains of Biblical proportions to wash out Denver. Doesn't sound so harmless now, does it?

I mean, the irony is really quite priceless, and the incident shows how exploitative the notion that God is with the conservatives is. Especially after repeated garbage from evangelicals and conservatives in the past years about how every natural disaster and suffering visited upon America is because of godless gays and liberals.

Thankfully, sanity is still alive even in some corners of DailyKos.

102 · chachaji said

Apart from any unforeseeable health concerns (including psychiatric ones) that come from his 5 years as a POW, he has had 4 melanomas - beginning in 1993, and underwent extensive surgery in 2000, and then again in 2002. (Obama would be the third youngest.)

Hey, even Charlie Black, McCain's advisor says “She’s going to learn national security at the foot of the master for the next four years, and most doctors think that he’ll be around at least that long,”

McCain is just like toothpaste that 90% of all dentists recommend. Get it now!

244 · Dr AmNonymous said

point out that all the ways in which she's a token without explicitly saying she's a token - starting with "she opposes women's rights" - for example, she wants to deny rape victims the right to decide for themselves whether to keep the baby of their rapists.

only thats not what makes her a token. her alleged lack of experience is what makes her a token. her ant-abortion position is the opposite of tokenism, since a male candidate would be expected to have similar view. look what happened to romney.

plus, you have a sizable minority of american women with similar views on abortion, so she could win them over as well as moderates who aren't concerned with roe v wade being overtunrned b/c of the political reality that its in the best interst of the republican party to keep the status quo (while appearing to oppose it) as well as the legal reality that even the judges who find roe v wade wrongheaded (and there are plenty out there, if not a majority) have enough concern for stare decisis that they won't overturn...which is the real legal hang up.

[nb: this comment has been amended]

Jerk.

"Jerk" is uncalled for and violates our commenting policy; we ban for repeated violations. It needn't get to that, though-- there are better ways to disagree with others, right?

256 · NotADemocrat said

While I think that is an offensive and stupid use of prayer, I don't think you can compare harmless rain with a hurricane. The comparison is a serious reach.

Agreed, and let's not make light of hurricanes right now, please. Additionally, there's no need to use terms like "repugs", it just drags down the conversation.

Thank you for otherwise doing an excellent job of debating each other (and keeping each other in check) on a holiday weekend, when we let the interns out to experience daylight for their one break a year, thus leaving the thread unattended. They are gleefully grateful, I assure you.

261 · Rajni the Monkey said

Jyotsana, please chill. "Jerk" is uncalled for and violates our commenting policy. There are better ways to disagree with others

I'm actually the one who used the word "jerk," and while I apologize for breaching SM policy, I don't back down from calling out racist comments, especially those directed at me. People of EVERY race have a right to make up their own minds about politics, and any attempt to call minorities uncle toms or any linguistic variation of that repulsive slur needs to be called out.

263 · NotADemocrat said

I'm actually the one who used the word "jerk," and while I apologize for breaching SM policy, I don't back down from calling out racist comments, especially those directed at me.

NotADemocrat, thank you for clarifying and apologizing. You have been here for years and so you should know we don't appreciate racist comments, either. We wouldn't want you to back down, but it would be helpful if there was no name-calling...more on that, soon.

Jyotsana, I am very sorry I attributed that word to you.

Everyone...can't we all just get along? Without breaking commenting rules and confusing the monkey?

People of EVERY race have a right to make up their own minds about politics, and any attempt to call minorities uncle toms or any linguistic variation of that repulsive slur needs to be called out.

NAD, we've banned people who use UT. Believe me, we find it repulsive.

I really don't want to close this thread...please, mutineers, play nice?

I can absolutely play nice :-)

266 · jyotsana said

Uncle Tom or Tio Jose is not a slur.

Actually, on this blog, it is not welcome, which is why I deleted your last comment, in which you tried to justify its use. Thank you in advance for respecting our preference that it not be used.

There are of course tonnes of smear merchants on all sides, only on the Dems' side they don't run campaigns are at best marginal cheerleaders

or if you need it spelled out:

Clinton told to portray Obama as foreign

*wild attempt to change subject*

So...uh...Sarah Palin's 17-year old daughter Bristol is pregnant, huh?

I agree with this (from the above link):

* Democrats must be VERY careful not to take a false step here. Some Republicans have already insisted that the Obama campaign is behind the rumor-mongering about Sarah, Bristol and Trig -- although in our experience the campaign has not pushed the story AT ALL, in fact they have been encouraging reporters to focus on the issues of difference between the two candidates rather than personal stories. Any sense that Democrats are pushing this idea will almost certainly turn both Sarah and Bristol Palin into sympathetic figures -- and that spells trouble for her detractors.

Potential VP with a pregnant teenage daughter! wow!! Go family values!

Potential VP with a pregnant teenage daughter! wow!! Go family values!

LOL--talk about elitist! This will play well in Peoria--didn't you see Juno?

Boy, McCain set a huge trap for liberals. Knowing they'd think its a big scandel b/c their caricature of conservative thought demands they think social conservatives would be scandalized, he knew they's overplay their hand and appear like misogynists, swift boaters and the vrwc he's so famously fought. even if the baby wasn't palins it wouldn't be a scandal, even to conservatives. there's no issue of sexual harassment, rape, or perjury as in the clarence thoamas, bob packwood, and bil clinton cases. there's even no allegations of immoral behaviour as in the edwards or even mccain scandals---which he's hilariously dodged by blaming the left wing media(the nytimes piece) and being excused b/c of the POW exception--except arguably by the daughter but most people are gong to be very sympathetic there, including social conservatives, especially since she's having the kid like a good pro-lifer.

mccain solidifies the social conservative base, and picks up moderate women disgusted by the liberal blogs and radical feminists. Meanwhile, he appears like a saint, refusing to go into the gutter with sexism (and for that matter racism) while the dems have been knee deep in both. it must be so infuriating especially since the truth is liberals are much better on those two issues. but they always figure out a way to pull defeat out of the jaws of victory.

What is she naming the kid? Dakota? or Denver?

273 · the doctor said

What is she naming the kid? Dakota? or Denver?

Hillary.

274 · Manju said

Hillary.

If you'd said Roger, it would've made more sense. A for effort, though.

270 · KarmaByte said

Go family values!

as people have pointed out, unfortunately, this is what passes for respect for life and family values in a certain section of america. at least, this time, it is a true youthful indiscretion.

272 · Manju said

even if the baby wasn't palins it wouldn't be a scandal, even to conservatives.

just like it wasn't fair game for kerry to mention mary cheney, despite her dad's party wanting to pry in the lives of all gays and lesbians in this country, conservatives only see a scandal when the other side does it.

277 · the doctor said

conservatives only see a scandal when the other side does it.

and you're different?

278 · Manju said

and you're different?

aww, manju, seems like i really touched a raw nerve, didn't i? poor dear.

BREAKING NEWS: the NRA is going to host bristol's shotgun shaadi.

How does this VP choice not make John McCain look completely reckless and incompetent?

Brilliant Republican strategy, can't win on a normal election since it's not. Make it a joke and win on humor.

BREAKING NEWS: McCain to appoint Verne Troyer as first midget secretary of state, and put a crack through the glass floor.

That's to get disgruntled Kucinich voters, of course. You know, the HOBBITs: Hey, Obama! Barack, Bite IT!

only thats not what makes her a token. her alleged lack of experience is what makes her a token. her ant-abortion position is the opposite of tokenism, since a male candidate would be expected to have similar view. look what happened to romney.

I think you misunderstand what tokenism is. From wikipedia:

Tokenism refers to a policy or practice of limited inclusion of members of a minority group, usually creating a false appearance of inclusive practices, intentional or not. Typical examples in real life and fiction include purposely including a member of a minority race (such as a black character in a mainly white cast, or vice versa) into a group. Classically, token characters have some reduced capacity compared to the other characters and may have bland or inoffensive personalities so as to not be accused of stereotyping negative traits. Instead, their difference may be overemphasized or made "exotic" and glamorous.

She wasn't picked for her lack of experience (which is not alleged...subjective as the sentiment may be, it is as close to one can get as a fact even given epistemological uncertainty ;). She was primarily picked because she is a woman imo and based on her acceptance speech. Having anti-women positions is exactly what reveals her as a token.

plus, you have a sizable minority of american women with similar views on abortion

I challenge you to name five other women in America who really and truly believe women who have been raped should not be allowed to decide whether or not to carry the child to full term. If you can meet this challenge, I suggest you find better people or reading material. Her views on abortion are not in the mainstream of the anti-abortion position. She is SCARY conservative.

, so she could win them over as well as moderates who aren't concerned with roe v wade being overtunrned b/c of the political reality that its in the best interst of the republican party to keep the status quo (while appearing to oppose it) as well as the legal reality that even the judges who find roe v wade wrongheaded (and there are plenty out there, if not a majority) have enough concern for stare decisis that they won't overturn...which is the real legal hang up.

You're misunderstanding the nature of the Republican party. It is a big tent coalition and its factions have implemented their common agenda (with Bill Clinton's help) to the point where now their agendas pull in different directions. This is why they are widely viewed as "insane" when they embark on wars of choice or allow cities to get flooded with no ostensible benefit to anyone or argue that abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape and incest. So if the Christian Fundamentalist faction secures one more Supreme Court justice (and I would bet they would find one given how many extraordinarily politicized judges the Republicans have managed to find so far to nominate to the Supreme Court), it doesn't really matter what the RNC says. If the RNC had control over the party, Mitt Romney would be the candidate or Rudy Giuliani or someone like that, not John McCain.

I'll concede that I could see an argument that John McCain as a public figure might resist appointing a supreme court justice that would overturn Roe v. Wade, but that's an argument, not a certainty or near one. I would have a hard time believing a "maverick" like Sarah Palin wouldn't appoint a pro-life judge if she's on record stating that even if her daughter were raped she wouldn't support a right to an abortion. She's REALLY out there and a bit of a clumsy politician (which is endearing but scary given her politics). And given that McCain knows he might keel over and is willing to let her take the reins...well...that's not saying much for his willingness to buck the Christian right.

Anyway, all this is probably a moot point and there are other things I'm more interested in than debating whether the anti-feminist position on abortion in the U.S. or the REALLY REALLY REALLY SCARILY anti-feminist position on abortion in the U.S. is worse. The chances of either being anywhere near the presidency next year keep getting slimmer...

Boy, McCain set a huge trap for liberals. Knowing they'd think its a big scandel b/c their caricature of conservative thought demands they think social conservatives would be scandalized, he knew they's overplay their hand and appear like misogynists, swift boaters and the vrwc he's so famously fought. even if the baby wasn't palins it wouldn't be a scandal, even to conservatives.

This is why they released the news the same day that a major hurricane was close to hitting New Orleans? Cmon dude...you're straining credulity here.

285 · Dr Amnonymous said

I'll concede that I could see an argument that John McCain as a public figure might resist appointing a supreme court justice that would overturn Roe v. Wade

Not by his own admission. And not by his record.

285 · Dr Amnonymous said

and I would bet they would find one given how many extraordinarily politicized judges the Republicans have managed to find so far to nominate to the Supreme Court

Thank Reagan and Meese for that.

The left chooses to get it by using class envy, and blaming the more successful.

First of all, this is what left means, not the Democratic Party or most "leftist" bloggers. Secondly, why would I envy people as stupid and selfish as the people in the Bush Administration? I would NEVER want to be them. If I'm going to envy rich people, I'll find better people.

272 · Manju said

swift boaters and the vrwc he's so famously fought

I don't think you want the past continuous. The past tense is appropriate. As in fought. Now he's dropped his pants and bent over. And this is just the icing on top of a pretty damn conservative record.

285 · Dr Amnonymous said

She was primarily picked because she is a woman imo and based on her acceptance speech. Having anti-women positions is exactly what reveals her as a token.

How so? I agree with the first sentance but no where in your own definition of tokenism does it state that the token has anti-(token group) views.

I challenge you to name five other women in America who really and truly believe women who have been raped should not be allowed to decide whether or not to carry the child to full term. If you can meet this challenge, I suggest you find better people or reading material. Her views on abortion are not in the mainstream of the anti-abortion position. She is SCARY conservative

i can't name five men either. i simply don't know. nor can i name 5 women who support abortion in the 3rd trimester, though i'm sure they're out there. but just b/c these individuals are in the fringes, doesn't make their viewpoint anti-woman or anti-baby b/c the positions can be easily explained by other concerns.

The "mave-rick" Sarah "troopergate" Palin got her start serving as director in a 527 for indicted Ted "BTN" Stevens.

272 · Manju said

Meanwhile, he appears like a saint, refusing to go into the gutter with sexism (and for that matter racism) while the dems have been knee deep in both.

McSame has covered himself with layers of sexism and some racism too and is starched up in it. When he walked out on his injured wife of many years who stood by him when he was a POW and turned sugar daddy to go after a CYT with lotsa money, he confirmed that women are simply things to be used and thrown away. When he called his wife a trollope and a **** in public and suggested recently that it would be a good thing for her to join a strip act in public he showed himself to be little more than a cheap *** chaser. And then there is that response "That's a good question," when one of his supporters asked of Hillary, "How do we stop the *****?" And then his gutter-based smearing of Chelsea calling her the child of Janet reno and Hillary is a class act even for a low down piece of scum. And finally as for racism when the Karl Rove+George Bush machine smeared his daughter Bridget in South Carolina in 2000, McSame kept quiet and put his political ambitions in front of his daughter's dignity and to this day has not even once condemned the two slime merchants that committed that atrocity. What type of father licks the boots of the men who abuse his daughter? Words fail me. When a man like McSame can't be bothered to protest the fair name of his daughter and dismisses a rival's daughter as a chimera, he deserves nothing but the vilest epithets.

292 · Manju said

I challenge you to name five other women in America who really and truly believe women who have been raped should not be allowed to decide whether or not to carry the child to full term. If you can meet this challenge, I suggest you find better people or reading material. Her views on abortion are not in the mainstream of the anti-abortion position. She is SCARY conservative

i can't name five men either. i simply don't know. nor can i name 5 women who support abortion in the 3rd trimester, though i'm sure they're out there. but just b/c these individuals are in the fringes, doesn't make their viewpoint anti-woman or anti-baby b/c the positions can be easily explained by other concerns.

So they're out there. And "in the fringes." But they're, in your words, "a sizeable minority"? Sorry, doesn't add up. You could be right, but I see no evidence to support this:

plus, you have a sizable minority of american women with similar views on abortion, so she could win them over as well as moderates who aren't concerned with roe v wade being overtunrned

If it's out there, point me to it. Otherwise, I think if Obama's campaign or someone else runs a feminist attack on Palin, not only is she going to be revealed as an ideological extremist, but she's going to lose mccain a lot of women voters (Esp if his views get tied to hers), not win them over.

The doctor smells suspiciously of Rahul "Mr Youtube" from some months ago.

295 · Dr Amnonymous said

think if Obama's campaign or someone else runs a feminist attack on Palin

I am betting Hillary comes in to play big time on that one... Already, Palin's dogwhistles are being met by boos.

296 · Rahul_Is_That_You? said

The doctor smells suspiciously of Rahul "Mr Youtube" from some months ago.

Sorry, I don't smell suspicious, only reek of contradiction, so you must be thinking of somebody else.

By the way, Sarah Palin is a true patriot who will be ready on day one.

So she doesn't know the history of the pledge of allegience? So what? Biden is a serial plagiarizer. These sorts of topics are really only of interest to (us) partisans--they're not what's going to swing an "independent" (read, tuned out) voter. Methinks the Palin daughter pregnancy plus the Down's syndrome kid will bring out some typical non-voters, but then again, what do I know?

From Washington Post,

In the time between the pick and Palin's statement today, rumors had grown louder and louder that Palin's youngest son, Trig, was actually her grandson and that it was Bristol who had given birth to the young boy.

291 · Manju said 285

How so? I agree with the first sentance but no where in your own definition of tokenism does it state that the token has anti-(token group) views.

It's not that all people who are tokenized have anti- views. It's that the fact that she does REVEALS that McCain's campaign chose her as a token and has (apparently) no ability and/or willingness to distinguish between identity as a woman and feminism. This isn't just a problem with his campaign and extends well beyond Republicans, but it's particularly egregious here. They're using a woman to bolster patriarchy.

295 · Dr Amnonymous said

So they're out there. And "in the fringes." But they're, in your words, "a sizeable minority"? Sorry, doesn't add up. You could be right, but I see no evidence to support this:

i said "simialr views" to plain, meaning simply anit-abortion which is about %40 of the American female public. so labling a huge minority like that a gendered uncle tom becomes problematic. now you appear to have refined your views to just include those who oppose abortion in every circumstance, which is more defensible, but still doesn't allow for women to have the full humanity of being renegades within their group identity.

i'm personally not opposssed to uncle tom/self-hatred arguments...but i think its one of those subjects that demands nuance as in the way franz fannon handled it.

Homage to Rahul. Bristol's keeping her baby.

I don't think you want the past continuous. The past tense is appropriate. As in fought. Now he's dropped his pants and bent over. And this is just the icing on top of a pretty damn conservative record.

Sorry, I don't smell suspicious, only reek of contradiction, so you must be thinking of somebody else.

Please don't be mean to yourself or homophobic. There's enough of both to go around in South Asian American circles already :)

Ohhh damn! This is offically the weirdest election I have ever seen.

Who is like Britney Spears now Mother Fu@#a!

Okay that was a little overboard.

269 · A N N A said

So...uh...Sarah Palin's 17-year old daughter Bristol is pregnant, huh?

Here you go...I told you McCain is shrewd. Palin the controversial candidate will attract a lot of media attention directly competing with Obama's celebrity status. Will definitely translate to some extra votes for McCain.

I had so much fun reading that with my Apu accent.
Your mummy sounds like a lot of fun, and thanks for the laughs.

I do think he likes having the young (or otherwise surgically altered) women around

304 · Dr Amnonymous said

Please don't be mean to yourself or homophobic.

Oops. Forgot to hold on to my PC in all the hubbub about the Mac.

There's enough of both to go around in South Asian American circles already

What, we have affirmative action now for self-hate?

It's not that all people who are tokenized have anti- views. It's that the fact that she does REVEALS that McCain's campaign chose her as a token and has (apparently) no ability and/or willingness to distinguish between identity as a woman and feminism.

i don't think it does. presumably mccain chose her as a token in order to get women to vote for him. but that would've been easier if he just chose a woman with just mainstream anti-abortion views.

by choosing such a maverick, which btw contradicts your own def of tokenism (tokens "have bland or inoffensive personalities") he actually hurts himself with the general pop, though he helps with the evengelicals (but they didn't need a woman).

309 · Manju said

presumably mccain chose her as a token in order to get women to vote for him. but that would've been easier if he just chose a woman with just mainstream anti-abortion views.

well, it's not a simple either-or. he is pulling the political jujitsu of getting the really mad hillary voters by putting up a woman, while really shoring up his evangelical credentials, and demolishing part of barack's unique appeal as a breaker of barriers. two of those three things are purely because he put out somebody there who has ovaries, but does not advance the cause of feminism (except in a bizarro world where basic definitions are upended).

the equivalent would be if mccain had selected alan keyes, except that he is tangibly angry and fringe (and dare i say it, crazy), whereas her rabid views (which make her appealing to evangelicals) are masked by her pleasant demeanor.

Favoring Abortion: Men Versus Women

If it's out there, point me to it

views on abortion:

Situation Men Women
All or Most Cases 54% 58
To Save Woman's Life 88 88
To Save Woman's Health 82 83
In Cases of Rape/Incest 80 81
Physically Impaired Baby 53 55
To End Unwanted Pregnancy 43 40
D&X/Partial-Birth Abortions 28 19
Pregnancy is 6 Months+ 15 8

Here's Barack Obama on Bristol Palin's pregnancy. Watch the video and read the report. Let me be a clear as possible: I have said before and I will repeat again, I think people's families are off limits, and people's children are especially off limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president. I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. My mother had me when she was 18, and how family deals with issues and teenage children -- that shouldn't be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who's supporting me understands that's off limits. I hope I am as clear as can be, so in case I'm not, let me repeat: We don't go after people's families, we don't get them involved in the politics, It's not appropriate and it's not relevant. "Our people were not involved in any way in this and they will not be. And if I ever thought that it was somebody in my campaign that was involved in something like that, they'd be fired," McSame and Bushy we are still waiting for your apology for smearing the name of all women, especially Bridget. Have you no decency? One can understand a-piece-of-trash-you-wipe-off-your boots-while-walking-across-a-cow-pasture like Rush Limbaugh spouting abuse about Chelsea. He has his ends mixed up. But not McSame. He is called to much higher standards. Much higher.

identity politics, identity politics, identity politics... I relish the day when the parties start foisting recriminations against each other about appeasing vote banks. Welcome to the future where whites are just another quirky ethnicity and talk of a national culture will be seem as the sham that it is

310 · the doctor said

but does not advance the cause of feminism (except in a bizarro world where basic definitions are upended).

what's the defintion you're using?

306 · Priya said

269 · A N N A said

So...uh...Sarah Palin's 17-year old daughter Bristol is pregnant, huh?

Here you go...I told you McCain is shrewd. Palin the controversial candidate will attract a lot of media attention directly competing with Obama's celebrity status. Will definitely translate to some extra votes for McCain.

Short term benefit.

However, Obama is taking the right approach. And Palin's troopergate is the real story.

And for the record, Campbell Brown brought it on Tucker Bounds.

Color me surprised.

talk of a national culture will be seem as the sham that it is

Crap! I've been suckered into celebrating the 4th of July and Thanksgiving all these years? Thx. for the memo! I guess we should just wake up and let the Russians take all the Arctic oil.

314 · Manju said

what's the defintion you're using?

The common sense one. Will women be better off in a world with Sarah Palin's policies on no protection for equal pay for equal work, abortion without exception, abstinence-only education, no hate crime protection, and so on and so forth?

I don't expect Sarah Palin to have certain views just because she is a woman, but I certainly shouldn't be expected to believe that her views advance the cause of women. The "feminist" explanations for these positions certainly do not meet the smell test, not the first time, not when they are rehashed for the hundredth time either - not from a logical point of view, and not in a historical context either.

thedoctor: >>What is needed though is a bigger policy solution that forces energy companies to invest in new sources cheaper extraction technologies, alternative energy sources

Innovation at the point of the gun. Now that's an innovative idea.

M. Nam

R. Nixon
Warren Earl Burgery
Harry Andrew Blackmun
Lewis Franklin Powell, Jr.
William Hubbs Rehnquist

G. Ford
John Paul Stevens

R. Reagan
Sandra Day O'Connor
Antonin Gregory Scalia
Anthony McLeod Kennedy

G. H. W. Bush
David Hackett Souter
Clarence Thomas

G. W. Bush
John Glover Roberts, Jr.
Samuel Anthony Alito

============
Dr. AmNonymous, these are the Supreme Court Justices appointed since the Nixon administration. Do you know how many of them have voted "YES" on cases with implications to overturn Roe vs Wade?

3 - Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas.

This intellectual fearmongering that McCain would appoint Justices is unfounded. The real question that needs to be asked is, will he appoint Justices so Conservative that they will refuse to touch anything the Congress would not...

But time and again I see phrase viewpoints like "McCain is going to take us back to the days of Segregation". People like Jyotsana, whose perspectives I actually read/respected in the past, have resorted to cheap puns and then we have the rest of the audience indulging in perfunctory retorts that can hardly be termed as the level of debate that has existed on this blog before...Referring to the DailyKOS as a reliable source of information is a leap of imagination the likes of which my small brain can't deal with.

Something pertinent about this whole issue though is that, Indian Americans as a community, its majority religion's values and India as a country will not be affected adversely no matter who comes to power. Hence, what is heartening to me is that, it has come down to individual vested interests, and that is kinda awesome because for once we all seem to be arguing as Americans and not DBDs and ABDs or whatever other label we may wanna give each other.

I meant, Supreme Court justices appointed by Republican Presidents since the Nixon administration

318 · MoorNam said

What is needed though is a bigger policy solution that forces energy companies to invest in new sources cheaper extraction technologies, alternative energy sources

doc, clenntech is the new IT in the VC world. no need to force anyone. private investments in this sector are so large peoiple are aftraid of a bubble. and there is real specualtion that the US could become a net exparter of oil in the not so distant future.

317 · the doctor said

The common sense one. Will women be better off in a world with Sarah Palin's policies on no protection for equal pay for equal work, abortion without exception, abstinence-only education, no hate crime protection, and so on and so forth?

your definition is way too subjective, since reasonable people can disagree on these issues. it not unlike calling those who oppose Israel anti-Semites. now they may very well be, and there opinions certainly intersect with anti-Semitism, but there is much more to anti-semitism than that.

Its interesting to see that some liberals are dennouncing DailyKos as fringe when the fact is that Elizabeth Edwards blogs there, alongwith a few Dem congressmen. First they accused Palin's daughter of giving birth to the Downs Syndrome baby without any proof, Now the theme is that she's a whore who cannot control herself. Where are the feminists in all this? Its interesting Daily Kos stayed quiet on John Edwards' affair.

I am not at all impressed by Obama's denouncing this after the mudslinging has already been done. Wasn't this done before to Clinton.

322 · Manju said

your definition is way too subjective, since reasonable people can disagree on these issues. it not unlike calling those who oppose Israel anti-Semites.

It's nothing like that, but ok.

323 · Vic said

I am not at all impressed by Obama's denouncing this after the mudslinging has already been done. Wasn't this done before to Clinton.

How dare he not anticipate what other people might say even before they say it? Or should he have just said that he can't do anything about it, 'cuz that's the way it is?

Its interesting to see that some liberals are dennouncing DailyKos as fringe when the fact is that Elizabeth Edwards blogs there, alongwith a few Dem congressmen.

DailyKos is a grab bag of people, filled with quite a few shrill lefties. It is one of them who said it. And a blogger on DailyKos also rebutted it quite firmly.

And for the record, Campbell Brown brought it on Tucker Bounds.

Totally OT: She beat that boy with the ugly stick and it wasn't as if she asked anything unfair. She just asked tough, probing questions and he didn't have anything resembling a direct answer. Answers a Mcain spokesperson should be ready with....I might actually start watching CNN instead of the cartoon channel. To be fair, I don't watch any of the news channels except for the BBC and that's just because I find English accents sexy.

Rahul D,

As for whether the Supreme Court could overturn Roe v. Wade. The answer is yes. You forget Plessy v. Ferguson was later overturned by Brown v. Bd of Ed. It's not an uncommon precedent to have precedent overturned. Roe's central holding has also been recast by later decisions affecting its scope such as Webster and Casey. I think it is fair of you to say that Roe v. Wade is unlikely to be overturned and that the most a cultural conservative could hope for is continued limitation on when an abortion would be permissible. But to say that it's impossible for Roe's central holding to be ultimately overturned, goes too far. Therefore, it would be rational for pro-choice supporters to argue that a Mccain presidency poses an unreasonable risk.

As for Palin, I think Mccain made a very courageous and at the same time a very cowardly (some would say intelligent) choice. It was courageous in that he threw caution to the wind and picked up a female outsider that no one knows, who seemed to follow in his mold. (the maverick) It's even more courageous if he knew that Sarah's kid was with kid. The political pool on that is not exactly the easiest shot to pull off. It's cowardly because he went against those same maverick instincts and appeased the Republican base. I think it had very little to do with women voters or hillary pumas. The images of a united Democratic convention must have sent shivers down his spine as he would have to deal with a tepid Republican party cheering him on. The public at large would have seen a dispirited, divided Republican Party. In comparison to the spectacle the Dems put on that would have been a disaster for Mccain. Now, the loonies on the left will certainly be matched by the ardor of the loonies on the right.

If he really wanted to pull a surprise, he would have fashioned a time machine and gone back to John Kerry's offer of the vice presidency and taken it. That ticket would have won. The maverick that independents and right leaning dems came to respect then wouldn't have to jump through hoops to keep the "conservatives" happy.

First they accused Palin's daughter of giving birth to the Downs Syndrome baby without any proof, Now the theme is that she's a whore who cannot control herself. Where are the feminists in all this?

i saw something on cnn (i think) a few weeks back about how the mccain camp thoroughly studied the clinton campaign, first and foremost b/c she got to obama at the end as he crawled pass the finish line.

all the themes that immediately emerged from McCain: obama w/ messiah complex, as shallow w/ no substance, as race baiter, as not ready to be commander and chief, came directly from the clinton playbook, as jim clyburn recently observed as well.

well, they mentioned how clinton was able to rally her base (women) which had nothing to do with policy (since her and obama were pretty much on the same page) but everything to do with the perceived unfair treatment of clinton. everyday snubs that women could identify with. liberal like chris mathews, dave shuster, and keith olberman were the main culprits and obama got blamed b/c he didn't call them out.

i didn't think much of it at the time b/c how in the world could mccain tap into that. but now it all makes sense. mccin knew progressives could be baited into exposing thier misogamy and palin could benefit from tapping into this sypathy, which was, as anyone watching primaries know, quite considerable.

but obama seems to have learnt his lesson too, although these attacks on palin and her child are much more obvious than the ones on hillary. he stupidly had a spokesman immediately attack palin when she was announced but then backtracked quickly, disowning bill burtons comments. he's got top reamin chivalrous and above the fray. this is a trap and andy sullivan and daily kos have fallen into it.

Doctor...

You are incredibly naive to disingenuous to think that Obama did not know that this was going to come out. The campaign knew every possible negative information on Palin a few hours after she was selected to run. They probably discussed it and the only argument probably was on when and how it was going to come out.

326 · Jangali Janwar said

If he really wanted to pull a surprise, he would have fashioned a time machine and gone back to John Kerry's offer of the vice presidency and taken it. That ticket would have won.

word is his 1st choice was Lieberman but focus groups proved that too risky. appears he really wanted to shake things up and eep dems off balance. probably not a bad strategy, especially after obama monumental speech which would have catapulted him to a double digit lead if it weren't for this.

he could crash and burn if palin pulls a stockdale in the debates (and i mean stockdale, not Quayle, whose performance really wasn't all that bad). word is she's agood debater and could prove tricky. libs are just convinced she's and idiot b/c her religiouis views are so idiotic and she reminds them of hicks. but this was a trap truman, reagan, and bush laid.

As for whether the Supreme Court could overturn Roe v. Wade. The answer is yes. You forget Plessy v. Ferguson was later overturned by Brown v. Bd of Ed. It's not an uncommon precedent to have precedent overturned. Roe's central holding has also been recast by later decisions affecting its scope such as Webster and Casey. I think it is fair of you to say that Roe v. Wade is unlikely to be overturned and that the most a cultural conservative could hope for is continued limitation on when an abortion would be permissible. But to say that it's impossible for Roe's central holding to be ultimately overturned, goes too far.

i think this is fair.

328 · Vic said

You are incredibly naive to disingenuous to think that Obama did not know that this was going to come out. The campaign knew every possible negative information on Palin a few hours after she was selected to run.

Hope you're wearing your tin foil hat, otherwise Obama will read your thoughts even before you know them.

I think Manju's read on the Palin situation is exactly correct. But Biden definitely has to walk a fine line in the debates, smack her down (as he's wont to do, like in his multiple brilliant Giuliani putdowns) and he appears misogynist, let her get away easy and the law of low expectations means she emerges a winner.

What type of father mother licks the boots of the men who abuse his daughter? Words fail me

302 · Manju said

295 · Dr Amnonymous said

So they're out there. And "in the fringes." But they're, in your words, "a sizeable minority"? Sorry, doesn't add up. You could be right, but I see no evidence to support this:

i said "simialr views" to plain, meaning simply anit-abortion which is about %40 of the American female public. so labling a huge minority like that a gendered uncle tom becomes problematic. now you appear to have refined your views to just include those who oppose abortion in every circumstance, which is more defensible, but still doesn't allow for women to have the full humanity of being renegades within their group identity.

i'm personally not opposssed to uncle tom/self-hatred arguments...but i think its one of those subjects that demands nuance as in the way franz fannon handled it.

I haven't refined anything. I started out pointing out that Palin is so far to the right on abortion that she's to the right of most American anti-abortion advocates (substantially, according to the poll you used) and that if this is pointed out, which if the Obama campaign has any sense, it will be, will completely undermine whatever value to his campaign McCain might have thought nominating a woman would have provided. I don't know her or that much about her - I only know that her political positions support patriarchy (among other regressive hierarchies in the u.s.)

Of course women have the right to be whatever the f@#k they want - but you're confusing nuance with sophistry again :) The nuance is about how identity and politics interact in situations that are actually complex and not obvious, not about this nonsense of an extreme rightwing supporter of patriarchy (amonng other things) being positioned as a draw for women's votes. Understanding Hillary Clinton's candidacy's relationship to women's rights requires nuance; understanding Sarah Palin's requires two or three pieces of information and not overly complicating what is fairly simple.

It takes a ridiculously low estimation of women's critical thinking skills (again assuming the information about Palin's views is provided and focused on and amplified) to believe that Palin in ANY way will benefit McCain with women voters besides people who were going to vote for him anyway (people like Michelle Malkin). Turnout among crazy people might be a different story, but I don't think there will be enough to make a difference in this election; how many of them weren't enthused by McCain but will want a 40 something person with 2 years of executive experience as a governor to allay their fears that TEH MOOSLEMS WILLZS GETZ US AND THE RUSSIANS ARE COMMUNITS AGAIN OMG.

But I'll buy you a cookie at Obama's inaugural if I'm wrong. ;)

Hopefully, troopergate will spring a surprise in Obama's favor.

328 · Vic said

The campaign knew every possible negative information on Palin a few hours after she was selected to run. They probably discussed it and the only argument probably was on when and how it was going to come out.

And you know that how?!

318 · MoorNam said

Innovation at the point of the gun. Now that's an innovative idea.

Not all R&D expense is the same although a lot of it is actually spent on employing people. Broadly innovation expenditure can be split into high technical risk projects and high market risk projects. The corporate sector has no stomach for hgh technical risk projects. If not for the government none of it will ever get funded. A very large part of the R&D expenses of the corporate sector is into engineering rather than science. Barring the work done by AT&T, and IBM, and now to a lesser extent by Microsoft and Google, all of which touches on the fringes of computational science and info theory, deep scientific research does not happen in the corporate sector. As George Monbiot remarks wryly, except for the Wright brothers' first flight of the Kitty Hawk, and before that the true aviation pioneer Richard Pearse's first flight, everything else in aviation has been funded by the government. Without the government there would have been no aviation as we know it. In fact between the wars the Wright brothers had so stupidly pursued patent litigation and muddied up the waters that the US government had to step in and create a cross-licensing partnership and throw the by now obsolete ideas of the Wrights out of the reckoning. The corporate sector is not and has never been interested in anything beyond a quarter, which is why we are seeing no action on stem cells or IR sensitive solar cells or many other engineering projects. Darn, elder care robotics so vital to an aging population like our country's sees almost no interest in the VC community. The market alone is a poor guide and misses innovations by a mile. Interstate highways, internet, high quality medication, aviation, are some of the many innovsations that we must thank government for. And BTW where's that corporate sector constructed particle accelerator located?

Dr. AmNonymous, these are the Supreme Court Justices appointed since the Nixon administration. Do you know how many of them have voted "YES" on cases with implications to overturn Roe vs Wade?

3 - Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas.

Hey look - it's 3/5 of a Supreme Court majority to allow states to ban abortion! Now let's throw in one of Roberts and Alito and whoever a Republican President might appoint to appease the Christian fundamentalists and voila!

I think I'll go with Jeffrey Toobin's analysis over yours:

I don't think the current Court will overturn Roe. Since Kennedy wrote much of Casey in 1992, I don't think he will simply walk away from it. But it will not take long if there is another Republican appointee. A state will pass a total abortion ban, and it will be challenged. That case will maybe take a year to get to the Court — which will, I think, uphold such a law.

333 · Dr Amnonymous said

The nuance is about how identity and politics interact in situations that are actually complex and not obvious

i agree with this which is why the "she's anti-abortion = anti-woman!!!" reductionism isn't helpful. it could be done to you. is your anti-globalization stand tantamount to being anti-indian? are you therefore a bigot b/c you oppose policies that help indians rise out of poverty? well, the catch is you don't think these policies actually help. you belive that's debatable at a minimum .but your opponents don't want to debate. they want to start from the presumption they right to begin with.

and of course they'll hold your feet to the fire when pat buchanan rails against outsourcing, when clinton talks of hard working american in the context of nafta. when another d-punjab message emerges from the obama camp. they'll point out how you position intersects with racism and xenephobia and you have no defence b/c you weren't so generous to palin.

Hey look - it's 3/5 of a Supreme Court majority to allow states to ban abortion! Now let's throw in one of Roberts and Alito and whoever a Republican President might appoint to appease the Christian fundamentalists and voila!

Whoops sorry - should have read more carefully. I guess it will take both Roberts AND Alito. Or maybe 2 appointees.

If I were a working class or middle class woman or a feminist, those are not people or odds I would want to have to count on ;)

The campaign knew every possible negative information on Palin a few hours after she was selected to run. They probably discussed it and the only argument probably was on when and how it was going to come out.

And you know that how?!

Common sense....and having to closely work with politicians during my regular line of work. Its not a coincidence that this came out when Republicans are just about to start their convention. Obviously its an opinion . This is a message board and not a court of law.

338 · Manju said

i agree with this which is why the "she's anti-abortion = anti-woman!!!" reductionism isn't helpful. it could be done to you. is your anti-globalization stand tantamount to being anti-indian? are you therefore a bigot b/c you oppose policies that help indians rise out of poverty? well, the catch is you don't think these policies actually help. you belive that's debatable at a minimum .but your opponents don't want to debate. they want to start from the presumption they right to begin with.

and of course they'll hold your feet to the fire when pat buchanan rails against outsourcing, when clinton talks of hard working american in the context of nafta. when another d-punjab message emerges from the obama camp. they'll point out how you position intersects with racism and xenephobia and you have no defence b/c you weren't so generous to palin.

You love nuance right? Here is all the nuance you need: hate the sin; love the sinner.
When you feel like it, go back and read what I actually wrote and I'll be happy to continue this conversation.

I'm not really worried about my ability to defend myself ;)

340 · Vic said

Common sense....and having to closely work with politicians during my regular line of work. Its not a coincidence that this came out when Republicans are just about to start their convention. Obviously its an opinion . This is a message board and not a court of law.

You work with campaigns, but have rejected the possibility that the hurricane was a bigger news story today than the convention, and the McCain campaign itself released this information on a day it would get about 1/100 the attention it would on a normal day?

Just a little bit of Historical trivia, Kennedy and Souter were heavily opposed by Anti-Abortion folks and policy lobbies...Souter rabidly so...

McCain cannot get a heavily conservative justice through to the Supreme Court...do you see Bork sitting on the bench?

342 · Dr Amnonymous said

and the McCain campaign itself released this information on a day it would get about 1/100 the attention it would on a normal day?

How dare you? McCain was a POW for five and a half years!

343 · RahulD said

McCain cannot get a heavily conservative justice through to the Supreme Court...do you see Bork sitting on the bench?

This is a very good point.

You work with campaigns, but have rejected the possibility that the hurricane was a bigger news story today than the convention, and the McCain campaign itself released this information on a day it would get about 1/100 the attention it would on a normal day?

Who said I work with campaigns. I do work closely with local level politicians. This story is getting plenty of coverage...enough to distract from any message that Palin might have. Why is CNN and Wolf Blitzer discussing this story for half an hour from 10:30 PM EST onwards even after Obama said to not focus on it.

343 · RahulD said

McCain cannot get a heavily conservative justice through to the Supreme Court...do you see Bork sitting on the bench?

That's not a problem. Alito is an excellent example of how it's done. Post Bork, presidents have been very smart to get judges who do not have a long written record that they can be hanged on, and know to say sweet nothings like stare decisis and "it depends on the circumstances of the case".

As Roberts' first term demonstrated, this court splits 5-4 on pretty reliable ideological lines. The second term has been different in that Roberts, with concern for his legacy (especially because even conservative icons like Posner excoriated his performance in the first year) focused on establishing narrow consensus and greater unanimity, but certainly did not hesitate to go down the 5-4 route on cases where it really counte (DC vs. Heller is one example). A reexamination of Roe v Wade is very likely to go down that same route.

And even if not for Roe v Wade, another conservative justice or two will mean that pretty much every other case can easily get decided 6-3 (or 5-4 + Kennedy around 60% of the time) in favor of the conservative viewpoint, which will mean that the liberal wing will be rendered completely toothless and ineffective (right now, the only bargaining chip they have is Roberts' concern for posterity leading him to try and achieve a measure of unanimity).

346 · Vic said

Why is CNN and Wolf Blitzer discussing this story for half an hour from 10:30 PM EST onwards even after Obama said to not focus on it.

Because Obama abducted them and replaced them with wind-up dummies (beard included) equipped with a recording of Daily Kos talking points.

McCain cannot get a heavily conservative justice through to the Supreme Court...do you see Bork sitting on the bench?

but could he get a libertarian? bork had some first amendment issues on top of abortion. libertarian thinkers in general believe in abortion but concede its not constitutionally protected, though their stand on stare decisis differs.

its legit to worry about roe v wad. a long shot but legit. however it would give the dems a huge issue in the legislatures., they were idiots to push this thru the judiciary.

346 · Vic said

Who said I work with campaigns. I do work closely with local level politicians. This story is getting plenty of coverage...enough to distract from any message that Palin might have. Why is CNN and Wolf Blitzer discussing this story for half an hour from 10:30 PM EST onwards even after Obama said to not focus on it.

I dunno...maybe because it's a media spectacle when a female vice presidential nominee's teenage daughter gets pregnant? Why does Wolf Blitzer do anything that he does? Obama doesn't control the media, as even McCain campaign people have acknowledged:

A senior McCain official said its camp had no evidence that the campaign of Democrat Barack Obama was pushing the story, but said the blog rumors circulating on websites that appeared to support Obama had the effect of being "a real anchor around the Democratic ticket."

On the other hand, fivethirtyeight, a pretty fair blog with a pro-Obama slant but more important things to worry about, notes that the news was released by the McCain campaign "at the precise moment of Gustav landfall."

Because Obama abducted them and replaced them with wind-up dummies (beard included) equipped with a recording of Daily Kos talking points.

Anchors being windup dummies? Not too far off from the truth......sarcasm or not.

@ 347 the doctor

The Supreme Court is not black and white and has not been in a long time...The dynamics are really intricate...

Like the shift of O'Connor towards the liberal side as opinions more conservative than her's (Thomas) got on the court...similarly Kennedy moved to the left after interactions with Scalia...

@ 349 Manju

The only justices McCain will appoint will be moderates like him, his family and his inner circle...the fear should not be that they will be Conservatives, the fear should be that they won't be strong. On the other hand no one seems to be pointing out that Obama's justices will be far too reactionary and will interfere way too much in public life. Just because they will support your point of view shouldn't mean that you should support transient arguments for why the balance between the judiciary and the legislature can be undermined.

349 · Manju said

worry about roe v wad.

Freudian slip? :)

352 · RahulD said

similarly Kennedy moved to the left after interactions with Scalia...

Only in the context of this Supreme Court can Kennedy be described as left.

The only justices McCain will appoint will be moderates like him, his family and his inner circle...

How on earth is McCain a moderate? Because he supported campaign finance reform and voted once for stem cell research? McCain has reliably opposed abortion throughout his career, and there is no reason to believe that his judge picks will not be the same way.

353 · the doctor said

Freudian slip? :)

heh...and my next wards were: "a long shot"

I partially agree with your p.o.v of Kennedy, but on the most important of the issues for Social Conservatives he has voted with the liberals...I'm not law student but even perfunctory knowledge on the subject will show that my analysis is correct.

McCain is a moderate in the sense that he is not a Conservative in the sense that most people on the website perceive us Conservatives as evangelical, proselytizing, war-mongering, racist, homophobic, old white men who want to start side businesses of back alley abortions. I hope I was succinct

I thought any President that recommended a justice for the Supreme Court had to get them confirmed through Congress. Now, if McCain wins and has an opportunity to appoint a Justice to the supreme court, it isn't like he can just pluck and place them on the bench. Seriously, is the Democratic Congress that impotent?

Point being, the Democrats have control of Congress, which is the branch designed to represent the will of the people. The fear mongering that the Supreme Court is going to overturn roe vs. wade if a McCain is president is nonsense. Checks and balances anyone? If the Bush presidency hasn't pulled it off, McCain's won't for sure. As President, he won't have the luxury of a Republican congress as Bush did.

Obama's response to the Palin Babygate is spot on. I like how he pointed out that he himself was born to a teenage mother.

Now I suspect that the blogs are going to attack Sarah Palin for letting her political career prevent her from properly raising her children. And for getting pregnant again when she already had too much to handle. And for risking that baby's life by giving a speech and going on a long plane flight (a big no no) even after her water broke.....

succinct but not well thought....sorry...TN vs UCLA is in OT

The fear mongering that the Supreme Court is going to overturn roe vs. wade if a McCain is president is nonsense.

No it is not. That is in the Republican Platform. That is what energizes the republican base the most. The Republican base is far more obsessed with abortion, gays and guns than with the economy, the war or the energy crisis.

Democrats will have to aggressively highlight the Republican agenda of overturning Roe v. Wade to keep pro-choice women from voting Republican just because they have put a woman on the ticket.

357 · GujuDude said

If the Bush presidency hasn't pulled it off, McCain's won't for sure.

What does that mean - Bush hasn't pulled him off? Alito, for sure, and Roberts, almost certainly, are very firmly in the Scalia-Thomas wing of the court. Alito, the replacement for Sandra Day O'Connor, is far to her right, so Bush certainly did what he wanted. One more vacancy/death and Bush would have decisively swung the court to the right for the next 30 years - especially since he has appointed young justices, and all the liberal justices are much older.

Point being, the Democrats have control of Congress, which is the branch designed to represent the will of the people.

That is the only possible bulwark. But if McCain is smart, I don't see how somebody like Alito, if he is proposed, could really be stopped. i.e. somebody that doesn't have an extensive record, will be well coached to say the most non-committal things, and not give Bork like hooks for the dems to eviscerate him or her.

McCain is a moderate in the sense that he is not a Conservative in the sense that most people on the website perceive us Conservatives as evangelical, proselytizing, war-mongering, racist, homophobic, old white men who want to start side businesses of back alley abortions

I don't really care. He has a social conservative, fiscally conservative, pro-war agenda and advocates for primacy in the role of religion in public life. Thanks, but no thanks (not that I am happy with Obama's interest in funding faith based programs either, but I have to go to vote with the candidates I have, not the candidates I'd like to have.)

358 · Valmiki said

Now I suspect that the blogs are going to attack Sarah Palin for letting her political career prevent her from properly raising her children. And for getting pregnant again when she already had too much to handle. And for risking that baby's life by giving a speech and going on a long plane flight (a big no no) even after her water broke.....

Well, they are idiots if they do. This is no business but hers, and it is certainly misogynistic to say that she cannot be a good mother or parent because she tries to juggle work and family.

All one can hope for is some troopergate revelations, a bad debate performance, or some idiotic comments of the kind she has made in the past.

362 · the doctor said

Well, they are idiots if they do. This is no business but hers, and it is certainly misogynistic to say that she cannot be a good mother or parent because she tries to juggle work and family.

It's already happening on CNN with the talking heads on Larry King. I knew I should have stuck with watching Tivo'd Family Guy.

Another good reason to vote for Obama, from a former vice chairman of the Federal Reserve.:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/business/31view.html?em

"Is History Siding With Obama’s Economic Plan?"

"Data for the whole period from 1948 to 2007, during which Republicans occupied the White House for 34 years and Democrats for 26, show average annual growth of real gross national product of 1.64 percent per capita under Republican presidents versus 2.78 percent under Democrats. That 1.14-point difference, if maintained for eight years, would yield 9.33 percent more income per person, which is a lot more than almost anyone can expect from a tax cut. Such a large historical gap in economic performance between the two parties is rather surprising"

"It is well known that income inequality in the United States has been on the rise for about 30 years now — an unsettling development that has finally touched the public consciousness. But Professor Bartels unearths a stunning statistical regularity: Over the entire 60-year period, income inequality trended substantially upward under Republican presidents but slightly downward under Democrats, thus accounting for the widening income gaps over all. And the bad news for America’s poor is that Republicans have won five of the seven elections going back to 1980."

"The two Great Partisan Divides combine to suggest that, if history is a guide, an Obama victory in November would lead to faster economic growth with less inequality, while a McCain victory would lead to slower economic growth with more inequality. Which part of the Obama menu don’t you like?"

270 · KarmaByte said

family values

Teen pregnancy hollywood style....Whats the big deal considering the Pregnancy boom at Glouester High. Why these kids don't use condoms ?

Um, that TIME story has been discredited. There was no "pregnancy pact."

I haven't been following this thread, so I don't really know what any of these things have to do with the topic at hand, but I figured I'd do my part to debunk this urban legend.

I wonder how the pro family values crowd would have reacted if Obama's daughter had been in similar circumstances as Bristol - if she was of an appropriate age, that is. (Here's a hint: it's going to be less rah-rah-rah-family values, more welfare queen stories.)

And word has it that Track Palin, born 8 months after the Palins eloped to marry, had several discipline problems growing up. And Todd Palin has had multiple violations, including drunk driving.

Lovely, normal American family with great, responsible parents! God Bless America!

Wow. This is turning into a real fiasco for the Republicans. We already know that Sarah Palin's husband Todd is a union member who is not affiliated with the Republican Party, and that Sarah once supported Pat Buchanan the renegade conservative. Now it is being revealed that both Sarah and Todd Palin were once members of the anti-american Alaskan Independence Party whose goal is to secede from the United States and make Alaska an independent nation!

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html

"Members of 'Fringe' Alaskan Independence Party Say Palin Was a Member in 90s"

"Officials of the Alaskan Independence Party say that Palin was once so independent, she was once a member of their party, which, since the 1970s, has been pushing for a legal vote for Alaskans to decide whether or not residents of the 49th state can secede from the United States."

"Earlier this year, Palin sent a video message to the AIP for its annual convention, where AIP vice chair George Clark told the small crowd that Palin "was an AIP member before she got the job as a mayor of a small town –- that was a non-partisan job. But you get along to go along -– she eventually joined the Republican Party, where she had all kinds of problems with their ethics, and well, I won’t go into that. She also had about an 80 percent approval rating, and is pretty well sympathetic to her former membership."

365 · Priya said

270 · KarmaByte said

family values

Teen pregnancy hollywood style....Whats the big deal considering the Pregnancy boom at Glouester High. Why these kids don't use condoms ?

Non-procreative sex is elitist

What does that mean - Bush hasn't pulled him off? Alito, for sure, and Roberts, almost certainly, are very firmly in the Scalia-Thomas wing of the court. Alito, the replacement for Sandra Day O'Connor, is far to her right, so Bush certainly did what he wanted. One more vacancy/death and Bush would have decisively swung the court to the right for the next 30 years - especially since he has appointed young justices, and all the liberal justices are much older.

That means that after 8 years of the Bush presidency, Roe vs. Wade is still around. It hasn't been turned over. Whatever the possibilities were, it hasn't happened. Didn't happen with Regan, Bush Sr. or Bush Jr. It's a political loser to really overturn it. John McCain most certainly isn't going to go down that path, not with a Democratic congress.

That is the only possible bulwark. But if McCain is smart, I don't see how somebody like Alito, if he is proposed, could really be stopped. i.e. somebody that doesn't have an extensive record, will be well coached to say the most non-committal things, and not give Bork like hooks for the dems to eviscerate him or her.

That means the Dems don't have the conviction to stand their ground? Why? I can understand with a Republican congress, they can't do much as they need to get their pork passed too, but now the Dems dictate legislation, so they're the ones who can dictate what will/won't fly. More likely than not, you'd see a compromise candidate if McCain is around that'd be a middle of the road person. McCain isn't far right nor do religious conservatives really fancy him as a candidate (because of his centrist approach).

No it is not. That is in the Republican Platform. That is what energizes the republican base the most. The Republican base is far more obsessed with abortion, gays and guns than with the economy, the war or the energy crisis.

That's a pretty broad brushed statement. Not concerned about energy? The war? Economy? That would be very false as the economy, energy, and war are talked about as much in Republican circles as Democrat along with all the other stuff I guess.

People need to stop painting caricatures (for the left and right) if they want to engage in meaningful debates.

Sigh...

370 · GujuDude said

but now the Dems dictate legislation, so they're the ones who can dictate what will/won't fly.

This betrays a fundamental lack of understanding about how the Senate works. the Dems could have filibustered Alito. It is just a political non-starter, because there is no red line issue on which they can block the nom.

McCain isn't far right nor do religious conservatives really fancy him as a candidate (because of his centrist approach).

McCain isn't a religious conservative, but he's firmly rightwing. I've linked to his voting record and statements multiple times. There is no need to keep repeating the fairytale that he is centrist.

Whatever the possibilities were, it hasn't happened. Didn't happen with Regan, Bush Sr. or Bush Jr.

You need a vacancy. No way McCain is going to nominate a non-right wing judge. All that is needed is one more right wing justice to complete the process that Bush got a far away along with two firmly rightwing justices. And overall, the court has moved quite a bit right since the time of Reagan. The notion that a Republican presidency will not firmly move the court into a 30 year hard conservative agenda just does not gibe with current reality or recent history.

after 8 years of the Bush presidency, Roe vs. Wade is still around

What an absurd, irrational argument. Just because Republicans haven't yet succeeded in achieving their agenda means that it is "fear mongering" on the part of Democrats to highlight their agenda of eventually overturning Roe v. Wade???

Get real.

McCain: funny guy. Good time to get this on the air, I think.

Wow. Strong feelings on the Pallin thing. I find it interesting that few people mentioned the fact that she tried to get her brother in law fired.

372 · Valmiki said

after 8 years of the Bush presidency, Roe vs. Wade is still around

What an absurd, irrational argument. Just because Republicans haven't yet succeeded in achieving their agenda means that it is "fear mongering" on the part of Democrats to highlight their agenda of eventually overturning Roe v. Wade???

Get real.

Well, it does destroy the argument that Republicans want to overturn Roe v. Wade IMMEDIATELY, another good one we keep hearing every single election cycle.

Guess it's not such a priority for them. :)

374 · Faiqa said

Wow. Strong feelings on the Pallin thing. I find it interesting that few people mentioned the fact that she tried to get her brother in law fired.

I'm sure it was mentioned quite a bit... until this happened.

Really, which is more interesting to tongue-wag about? Be honest! :)

@hep: unwed pregnant teenagers, most definitely.

The drunk driving incident was from 1986 when Todd was 22 years old. Not much older than Barack when he was doing this:

Years later in his 1995 memoir, he mentioned smoking “reefer” in “the dorm room of some brother” and talked about “getting high.” Before Occidental, he indulged in marijuana, alcohol and sometimes cocaine as a high school student in Hawaii, according to the book. He made “some bad decisions” as a teenager involving drugs and drinking, Senator Obama, now a presidential candidate, told high school students in New Hampshire last November. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/us/politics/09obama.html

176 jyotsana said

It is a grim reminder of how outside the enlightened mid-Atlantic, New England, the West Coast and the large urban centers the US entertains some very regressive and ill-informed notons, harboring a very strong contempt for intellect and caliber. It is also no coincidence that it is the progressive regions of the US that offer all the best that this country has to offer.

Awesome. This kind of raw hatred and bigotry really worked well for the Kerry campaign in 2004.

Keep it up. Do you have a tipjar?

370 · GujuDude said

What does that mean - Bush hasn't pulled him off? Alito, for sure, and Roberts, almost certainly, are very firmly in the Scalia-Thomas wing of the court. Alito, the replacement for Sandra Day O'Connor, is far to her right, so Bush certainly did what he wanted. One more vacancy/death and Bush would have decisively swung the court to the right for the next 30 years - especially since he has appointed young justices, and all the liberal justices are much older.

That means that after 8 years of the Bush presidency, Roe vs. Wade is still around. It hasn't been turned over. Whatever the possibilities were, it hasn't happened. Didn't happen with Regan, Bush Sr. or Bush Jr. It's a political loser to really overturn it. John McCain most certainly isn't going to go down that path, not with a Democratic congress.

---

McCain has been a strong and vocal member of Congress against abortions. He picks a VP running mate who equally has an extreme view on abortion and basically picked this running mate to shore up his religious base who from all indications doesn't like him.

Make no mistake, it is their intention to overturn Roe v Wade. They view it as murder, and they will not stop until abortion is illegal.

I didn't say that the religious right in the Republican party won't (and haven't) tried to undermine Roe Vs. Wade, but they simply don't have the political capital (IMO) to do so anymore. A whole generation of women have been raised with choice over reproduction and some may think abortion isn't right, the majority I have encountered don't say they'd like to take that decision away from other women. It would be a strategic blunder to continue pushing Roe vs. Wade when politically, the party is weak. It may energize their "base", but that base isn't enough. You need the center of the country to follow suit.

I also like how people decide who is right and who isn't (and make it sound so, dirty). To someone on the extreme left, everyone is right. To someone on the extreme right, everyone is left. Just depends where you pick your discussion (and it's a tiring one). I personally don't oppose anyone based on the fact that they're Republican or Democrat, rather, when you look at a candidate comprehensively, what is the total sum of their positions? Do they have the ability to make the right decision over their own personal feelings? Both parties have people that fit this definition, unfortunately in order to get to the top, they have to pander to those vocal elements before they get there.

>>To someone on the extreme left, everyone is right. To someone on the extreme right, everyone is left.

To a Libertarian, everyone else is nuts.

M. Nam

I am a two-issue voter right now:

a) Abortion. McCain and Palin are anti-choice, and in selecting Palin, McCain has thrown a bone to the part of his party that most wants to rob ME of my reproductive rights. Screw that.

b) Potential war with Iran. In all of the fulminating about babygate, it's been largely forgotten that John McCain jokingly sang "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran." His VP pick admits "I don't know much about Iraq" and didn't get her passport until 2007 - unless she drops some incredible knowledge during the VP debate with Biden, she's useless. A third war for this country would be DISASTROUS in addition to the civilian casualties.

Say what you like about Obama, but Joe Biden is a pragmatist through and through. I don't think either of them are in danger of running off half-cocked. And I don't think either one of them would find it funny to drop bombs on Iran.

The drunk driving incident was from 1986 when Todd was 22 years old.

No one should give a rats ass about DUIs, fishing violations etc. Harping on petty stuff like that is just silly. Even troopergate and babygate pale into insignificance compared to the real deal breaker: Sarah and Todd Palin's past membership in the secessionist Alaskan Independence Party, and continued sympathy for its cause. I predict that she will be pressured to decline the nomination soon.

It now makes sense why she and her husband Todd felt it was so important that their baby be born in Alaska not Texas. So important that even after her water broke she took a risky 8 hour flight back to Alaska to give birth.

I really like Obama's statements regarding the whole ordeal Palin and her daughter are going through. He said, "I think people's families are off limits and people's children are especially off limits." I appreciate and respect this. Too bad some of you aren't taking his advice. There are many other things you can take issue with Palin about. Even the best parents can't always control their children every minute of the day.

And I'm astonished at how judgemental and nasty some of you are. I thought liberals were supposed to be open-minded and compassionate! I guess that only applies to those who have the same views you do. I mean, I can't believe some of the things I'm reading here simply bcause her daughter got pregnant. Wow.

I know its easier to focus on something like this rather than, let's say, Palin's inexperience because the inexperience argument can transfer to Obama as well.

Bottom line is that is not going to matter much to voters at all. I don't need to take a poll to realize that. Teenage pregnancy and pregnancy out of wedlock are not as taboo as they used to be, even for conservatives. Sure, most would not want their child to be part of either, but who does? It is certainly not going to make them NOT vote for McCain, as would finding out that one of Obama's daughters (if old enough) was involved in something that traditionally goes against Democrat ideals would cause his supporters not to vote for him.

384 · Valmiki said

It now makes sense why she and her husband Todd felt it was so important that their baby be born in Alaska not Texas. So important that even after her water broke she took a risky 8 hour flight back to Alaska to give birth.

hey, val...ur usually a pretty wacky dude but i must say that's pretty good conjecture. no way to prove it off course but thats what makes it such an effective weapon.

>>Sarah and Todd Palin's past membership in the secessionist Alaskan Independence Party

This will be a net positive. Everyone knows that AIP(like most similiar movements in America) is just a way of expressing a desire for strong State rights and less power to Washington. I, for one, don't understand why the permission for Alaskans to drill in Alaska must come from the Beltway.

>>I am a two-issue voter right now: ...Potential war with Iran

The short-term solution to avoid war-mongering is to vote for someone like Obama (who would only go after Pakistan, not Iran).

The long-term solution is to campaign for the transfer the title of the head of the armed forces from the President to a Congressional committee. Currently, the President is the Commander-In-Chief and the head of the armed forces. Remove this and make the armed forces report to a revolving set of Senators and Congressmen (from both Parties). This way, the decision to go to war will not rest with one person. The likelyhood of twenty people coming to the same decision is much much lower.

The President being the head of the armed forces is a hangover from the days of Washington when the fledgling country was under attack from the British or from the days of Lincoln when the South was simmering. Moreover, in those days communication was lax and delayed, and the country needed one person to act quickly and decisively.

Times have changed now. The twenty person committee gets information instantly from around the globe on their Blackberries just as the President does. There's no justification for this power to go to war to rest with one person.

M. Nam

"I thought liberals were supposed to be open-minded and compassionate! I guess that only applies to those who have the same views you do. I mean, I can't believe some of the things I'm reading here simply bcause her daughter got pregnant. Wow."

umm well there would probably be some bad stuff written by the other side if it was a democrat story and didn;t the republicans themselves get very nasty about McCain's adopted daughter in 2000.

i am not advocating personal attacks or talking about families, but the main issue is that this news of Palin's personal family life does spill over into the policies she such as teaching of absinence only in schools and staunch pro life and that should be something we can and should examine.
It also smacks of contradiction for conservative teachings of no sex before marriage etc so it gets people talking.

387 · MoorNam said

Currently, the President is the Commander-In-Chief and the head of the armed forces. Remove this and make the armed forces report to a revolving set of Senators and Congressmen (from both Parties). This way, the decision to go to war will not rest with one person. The likelyhood of twenty people coming to the same decision is much much lower.

The is one of the consequences of the "living documant" theories of constitutional law. it pretty clestr that the founders intended congress to have the sole power to decide when to go to war, leaving the prez with limited power just to deal with sudden circumstances.

but original intent no longer matters.

>>leaving the prez with limited power just to deal with sudden circumstances.

This limited power also needs to be taken away from the President. "Sudden" in the 18th Century meant a week or two of response time. "Sudden" in the 21st Century means five minutes of response time (which is what it takes for a major news to go around the world). So if a country X attacks now, within a few minutes of the first bomb falling, we would be discussing it on SM. The Congressional committee would have known this before us, and would be on a video conference to decide the course of action.

The President can continue to inaugerate kindergartens.

M. Nam

Sarah and Todd Palin's past membership in the secessionist Alaskan Independence Party. This will be a net positive

Only among libertarian wackos like you. You are a tiny fringe minority. Its inconsequential what you consider a "net positive".

Republicans are a party that trumpets its patriotism and nationalism. Its typically irrational of you to think that they would consider affiliation with an anti-american secessionist party as something positive!

391 · Valmiki said

Republicans are a party that trumpets its patriotism and nationalism. Its typically irrational of you to think that they would consider affiliation with an anti-american secessionist party as something positive!

391 · Valmiki said

Only among libertarian wackos like you. You are a tiny fringe minority. Its inconsequential what you consider a "net positive".

It is TRULY a pity that libertarians are a fringe and conspiracy theorists (with their associated level's of intelligence) are legion. Do you even know who or what a libertarian is?

381 · GujuDude said

I didn't say that the religious right in the Republican party won't (and haven't) tried to undermine Roe Vs. Wade, but they simply don't have the political capital (IMO) to do so anymore. A whole generation of women have been raised with choice over reproduction and some may think abortion isn't right, the majority I have encountered don't say they'd like to take that decision away from other women. It would be a strategic blunder to continue pushing Roe vs. Wade when politically, the party is weak. It may energize their "base", but that base isn't enough. You need the center of the country to follow suit.

I also like how people decide who is right and who isn't (and make it sound so, dirty). To someone on the extreme left, everyone is right. To someone on the extreme right, everyone is left. Just depends where you pick your discussion (and it's a tiring one). I personally don't oppose anyone based on the fact that they're Republican or Democrat, rather, when you look at a candidate comprehensively, what is the total sum of their positions? Do they have the ability to make the right decision over their own personal feelings? Both parties have people that fit this definition, unfortunately in order to get to the top, they have to pander to those vocal elements before they get there.

---

While, ideally, I agree the summation of one choices and policies are far more important that a party label, however after the past eight years and the judgement exercised by the Republican party, frankly have little to no faith in their ability to reach across the aisle and take a middle ground on any topic.

They don't put their country first, they put their party first. But maybe you should read Rove 101. Always make your opponent's strength, their weakness. Always lie and make your weakness, your strength.

387 · MoorNam said

This will be a net positive. Everyone knows that AIP(like most similiar movements in America) is just a way of expressing a desire for strong State rights and less power to Washington.

Net positive only if they move on to the republican party. Big negative otherwise!

394 · lion said

They don't put their country first, they put their party first.

Wow...Is that a baseless generalization or what! How can you say things like that without providing examples?

This constant comparison of the Republicans to Christian Nazis is ridiculous...The whole party before country is more associated with Communist/Left Wing isn't it - and now who is more representative of the left wing ...the Republicans or the Democrats (I would mention the People's Party but I don't want louiecypher's wrath on me!)

If you want a generalization of putting oneself first, how about Obama's constant smug

While, ideally, I agree the summation of one choices and policies are far more important that a party label, however after the past eight years and the judgement exercised by the Republican party, frankly have little to no faith in their ability to reach across the aisle and take a middle ground on any topic.

They don't put their country first, they put their party first. But maybe you should read Rove 101. Always make your opponent's strength, their weakness. Always lie and make your weakness, your strength.

My theory is whenever a single party controls both the Presidency and Congress, you're going to see the party line put ahead of whatever is right for the country. There is no check/balance whenever the two branches are under the same party.

California kicked out a democratic governor and put a center right Republican (Arnold) in office. That action was the population of California sending a message (right or wrong, that's what happened). Similarly, the Republicans lost control of Congress as they decided to run the party agenda, rather than what was right for the country and paid for it in 2006. Democrats lost congress in the early 90s during the Clinton presidency for some of the same reasons/perceptions.

If opposite parties are in power, between all the BS that goes on in DC, a compromise is usually reached. It may not be the best solution for either party, but taxpayers tend to get a better deal.

396 · RahulD said

394 · lion said

They don't put their country first, they put their party first.

Wow...Is that a baseless generalization or what! How can you say things like that without providing examples?

---

Actually it's a play on what the Republicans themselves have been saying during their convention, so it's a commentary how they have chosen to create a distinction themselves and use it as a talking point the past two days.

However, the Republicans strategy for campaigning has been to 'own' patriotism. That in and of itself, after the past 8 years, I'm simply sick and tired of.

I got the play on "Country First"...and I do agree with trying to corner the market on patriotism part. But too many of the comments on here are baseless diatribes against the Republicans, making this no different than the opinions from a sewer like DailyKOS

397 · GujuDude
If opposite parties are in power, between all the BS that goes on in DC, a compromise is usually reached. It may not be the best solution for either party, but taxpayers tend to get a better deal.

Actually I've articulated that position as well for many years. Everyone is better served if neither political party has full control control of the Federal Government. Unfortunately, with the past 8 years of career civil servants being pushed out, political filtering hiring practices being applied and re-writing long well established policies for campaigning, I'm lost faith in the moderates within the Republican Party.

This has continued with the support Palin has been receiving after the McCain's announcement. Where are my fellow Americans in the Republican Party, who would say enough is enough to the special interests?

399 · RahulD said

I got the play on "Country First"...and I do agree with trying to corner the market on patriotism part. But too many of the comments on here are baseless diatribes against the Republicans, making this no different than the opinions from a sewer like DailyKOS

---

I'm not responsible for others comments or opinions. However, I would suggest you remember that criticizing either party, the Democrat or Republican, is important responsibility for all of us in democracies.

This is getting interesting! :)

Sarah Palin's mother-in-law uncertain about how she'll vote

"I'm not sure what she brings to the ticket other than she's a woman and a conservative. Well, she's a better speaker than McCain," Faye Palin said with a laugh.

Palin’s Teen Daughter Is Pregnant; New G.O.P. Tumult

Gov. Mark Sanford of South Carolina said that he had heard no discussion about removing Ms. Palin from the ticket. In fact, he said, he thought her daughter’s pregnancy would not hurt her with voters.

Where are my fellow Americans in the Republican Party, who would say enough is enough to the special interests?

Where are they? They're the people that voted the Republican Congress out. Shifts don't happen overnight and the bureaucracy of the federal government is huge. Each party gets to re-shuffle the deck of cards when they rule. Also, special interests aren't resident on the right, they exist in left as well. One party's "right" thing for the country is another's special interests.

399 · RahulD said

But too many of the comments on here are baseless diatribes against the Republicans, making this no different than the opinions from a sewer like DailyKOS

Maybe, but they're a product of something. The Republican party (along with, but not led by the Democratic Party) led by its base and its politicians and its movement has a) allowed the deterioration of the country's infrastrcutre to the point where major cities have been destroyed; b) destroyed Iraq and is participating in the destruction of Afghanistan; c) expanded the national debt to an unsustainable point; d) (with Clinton and on their own) supported a theory of easy credit and punitive policies towards the poor, lgbt people, women, black people, criminals, immigrants, Muslims, and others for several decades; e) promoted a culture of militarism for 60 years; f) undermined the ability of the bureaucracy in the departments of the interior, the department of justice, the federal emergency management association, and other parts of the government.

I agree that a broader analysis that "Democrats good, Republicans suck" is necessary, but some people with less analysis are offering what you call "diatribes" it might be because the product of these social effects has finally reached a point where it actually damages the ability of capitalism and disempowered groups to continue to function to the point where they're out of touch with the interests of the hegemony. And the Republican party and the social movement that forms its base is largely responsible for it in politics.

I got the play on "Country First"...and I do agree with trying to corner the market on patriotism part.

How about "world first"? Or people first?

Point taken

RahulID says, People like Jyotsana, whose perspectives I actually read/respected in the past, have resorted to cheap puns and then we have the rest of the audience indulging in perfunctory retorts that can hardly be termed as the level of debate that has existed on this blog before...Referring to the DailyKOS as a reliable source of information is a leap of imagination the likes of which my small brain can't deal with.
................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Thanks for the appreciation. As a rule apart from Valmiki, Razib, and Kush, my comments herald the end of a discussion, so ponderous and dull I think they are! McSame/McWhine is an apt name for McCain. It is impossible to respect a guy who can't defend the name of his daughter. Let's forget all the heavy lifting he did when Cindy got caught a few years ago stealing Rx drugs from her own non-profit to sustain her Rx habit. Everything about the party McSame represents is repugnant. There isn't an institution they have broken and abused.
=================================================================================================================================================================================================================================bleh says, Awesome. This kind of raw hatred and bigotry really worked well for the Kerry campaign in 2004.
...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Let's see Kerry was called "looking French", he's a true war hero, while his opponent used his dad's influence to party in Texas and for that he was called an elitist and war fraud. There was a person called John Mccain in 2000 who said something like, "As a POW in Vietnam I slpet soundly knowing Geroge W was defending the shores of Texas from the Viet Cong." And many veterans went along with the smear campaign. This country is the work of men and women of extraordinary learning before everything else. All the rest, faith, marksmanship, banjo strumming, come a very distant last. I live in a city in Ohio where right now a school district is hearing the notorious case of a teacher who branded his students with a crucifix while teaching them creationism. And that school district is barely a couple of hours from my home. The last election that featured an intellectual appeal from the repugs was 1964. After Nixon they have not ever nominated an intellectually able candidate or one with any respect for learning. It is another matter that Nixon with the Southern Strategy began the tradition of mocking rational and decent discourse. Just as Reagan learned to ride a horse and tool around a ranch a few years before he went national W did. And now that he is done with the posturing it is reported that George and Laura are selling their ranch and moving out to Dallas. Kerry is a very successful senator and much beloved in Massachusetts, so all residents of that state are infused with raw hatred and bigotry? No let's try this differently. Almost as many people voted for Kerry as did for Bush. So about half of those who voted in 2004 expressed raw bigotry and hatred? Or OK try this one. Obama won >50% of the Illinois vote in 2004, so >50% of Illinois expressed raw hatred and bigotry?

We know Adlai Stevenson said, But I need a majority to win." But ignorance isn't OK. It is unacceptable. It is not OK to insist that a woman in coma for >10 years with more water than brain tissue inside her head is "lving" and then pass a law to prevent her husband from turning off her ventilator, while in Texas a famous repug Congressman can do the same for a member of his family and a poor woman's child in a county hospital can be put to sleep because she can't pay the bills. It is not OK to insist that a clump of ~16 cells are babies and prevent research into cures for cancer. It is not OK to appoint an ill-read candidate with a fake resume to oversee NASA's cosmology research program. It is not OK dismiss scientists' findings on climate change in some place in the middle of nowhere and claim that they know nothing compared to someone's grandpa or grandma who can predict the weather with their horsesense. It is not OK to claim that drilling here and there (everywhere except McSame's backyard and Bushe's ranch) will solve our oil woes when the oil companies are sitting on enough unexplored leases already. It is not OK to call FDR a fascist in 1978 and claim to praise his legacy accepting a nomination in 1980.

404 · Dr Amnonymous said

How about "world first"? Or people first?

Globalists are not welcome in the anti-imperialist league. Why wasn't it just yesterday that the prophet Buchanan warned us about the borderless Mexican battle robots who infiltrated our cities by posing as road-side vendors and other kinds of small business owners?

/super jk/North American Union Awesome!!!!

Sarah Palin's got a crazy pastor too.

Disempowered my ass. We'll see a black person, a brown person, a person with two X chromosomes and all their combinations before we see a POTUS who doesn't identify as a Christian, and then we'll see POTUSes believing in all sorts of chosen gods and deities before we see an atheist POTUS who doesn't have any pastors, crazy or otherwise. The same day, Dick Cheney will shoot a flying pig in the face.

Palin seems like a sweetheart.

Yet one aspect of American life did not come to town until 1996, the year Sarah Palin ran for mayor and Wasilla got its first local lesson in wedge politics.

Anti-abortion fliers circulated. Ms. Palin played up her church work and her membership in the National Rifle Association. The state Republican Party, never involved before because city elections are nonpartisan, ran advertisements on Ms. Palin’s behalf.

Two years after Representative Newt Gingrich helped draft the Contract With America to advance Republican positions, Ms. Palin and her passion for Republican ideology and religious faith overtook a town known for a wide libertarian streak and for helping start the Iditarod dog sled race.

“Sarah comes in with all this ideological stuff, and I was like, ‘Whoa,’ ” said Mr. Stein, who lost the election. “But that got her elected: abortion, gun rights, term limits and the religious born-again thing. I’m not a churchgoing guy, and that was another issue: ‘We will have our first Christian mayor.’ ”

“I thought: ‘Holy cow, what’s happening here? Does that mean she thinks I’m Jewish or Islamic?’ ” recalled Mr. Stein, who was raised Lutheran, and later went to work as the administrator for the city of Sitka in southeast Alaska. “The point was that she was a born-again Christian.”

Ms. Palin’s first months in office here were so jarring — and so alienating — that an effort was made to force a recall. About 100 people attended a meeting to discuss the effort, which was covered in the local press, but the idea was dropped.

Shortly after becoming mayor, former city officials and Wasilla residents said, Ms. Palin approached the town librarian about the possibility of banning some books, though she never followed through and it was unclear which books or passages were in question.

Ann Kilkenny, a Democrat who said she attended every City Council meeting in Ms. Palin’s first year in office, said Ms. Palin brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting. “They were somehow morally or socially objectionable to her,” Ms. Kilkenny said.

The librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, pledged to “resist all efforts at censorship,” Ms. Kilkenny recalled. Ms. Palin fired Ms. Emmons shortly after taking office but changed course after residents made a strong show of support. Ms. Emmons, who left her job and Wasilla a couple of years later, declined to comment for this article.

Once in office, Ms. Palin asked many of Mr. Stein’s backers to resign — something virtually unheard of in Wasilla in past elections. The public works director, city planner, museum director and others were forced out. The police chief, Irl Stambaugh, was later fired outright.

Ms. Palin, her critics note, was not always the fiscal watchdog she has since boasted of being. In her second term as mayor, she pushed for a half-cent raise in the local sales tax to pay for a $15 million sports complex. The complex is popular and a junior league hockey team plays there now, but the city recently had to pay more than $1.3 million to settle an ownership dispute over the site.

Ms. Palin also began annual trips to Washington to lobby for federal money for specific initiatives, including rail projects and a mental health center.

It is not OK to call FDR a fascist in 1978 and claim to praise his legacy accepting a nomination in 1980.

"One factor was the rise of Ronald Reagan, who greatly admired Roosevelt and who dominated conservative thinking by 1980.[2] When, in 1981, Ronald Reagan was quoted in the New York Times saying that fascism was admired by many New Dealers (not including Roosevelt), he came under heavy criticism, for Reagan himself was a leading New Dealer in Hollywood."

Also, important to note, facism was not used as a slur in the 30's. Many serious thinkers were enamored by it, especially Mussolini's version of right-wing collectivism. martin Heidegger was famously duped. Of the New Dealers, Joe Kennedy comes to mind but I'm not sure who to whom Reagan may have been referring.

Added to that John McSame's own smears of Hillary, Chelsea, and any other woman, inclusing his own wife whom he called a trollope of a ****.

Also, in light of the smears leveled at Palin and her Daughter, we shouldn't let this little misogynistic swift boating go unchecked. there's no proof Mcain called his wife a cunt. The claim comes form a swift-boating type book (as you can tell from the cover) where 3 unnamed sources, who happen to be reporters that requested anonymity for no given reason, say they heard this.

the annoying liberal tendancey to introduce bigotry into the conversation under the guise of exposing conservatives.

406 · jyotsana said

As a rule apart from Valmiki, Razib, and Kush

whoa! this whole time I thought you were Valmiki going under another name, like prema, etc. "delusional" is one of his favorite words too.

Manju says, I'm not sure who to whom Reagan may have been referring.

Also, in light of the smears leveled at Palin and her Daughter...

Hardly. Everyone is questioning the judgement of a Governor who insists that abstinence education is all we need and no sex education is required whatsoever. Especially when the US has a teen pregnancy rate way above that of Europe. No smear here. Teens shouldn't be having babies, they aren't mature enough bodily or otherwise.

...we shouldn't let this little misogynistic swift boating go unchecked

The boat left the dock many years ago, my friend. That's history and Mccain bristles when asked with good reason, and because it has been confirmed so many times over, McSame has given up trying to refute it, and now wears it as a proud badge of his simpleness! He hasn't changed on bit in any case. There's that remark about HRC, "that's a good question," and Chelsea, who for frickin' sakes was a child then, "Why does she look so ugly? What do you expect when she has ....for a father and Hillary for a mother? And of course he still thinks it's a good idea for Cindy to join the Buffalo Chip contest! These are mean misogynistic streaks in McSame that have run thru for years and years. The repugs revel in them, they love putting women in their place. McSame also dissed Lily Ledbetter. Ad the list goes on...

I have seen tonnes of misogynistic movies made by "rationalist and progressive" film writers in Tamizh. And the "taming" of a a woman who speaks for herself by a submissive establishment approved woman is quite a common theme. Let's say I know it when I see it. McSame is just that, a misogynistic McSame, who won't speak up even for his own daughter. In parts of world where there is still honor, including many parts in this land, there is a word for a man who keeps quiet and sucks up to people who diss his daughter.

And Manju spare us that righteous indignation over swiftboating, coming as you do from he camp that invented it. McSame has not once spoken up for his fellow solidiers, sailors and airmen who have in exercise of their freedoms supported the Democratic Party. McSame kept quiet when Ann Coulter smeared Max Cleland and dismissed his triple limb loss as due to a DUI accident. McSame kept quiet when his fellow senator in georgia Chambliss dissed Cleland's record and questioned his patriotism. mcSame kept quiet while an assorted bunch of scumbags smeared John Kerry's distinguished service. McSame kept quiet when repug attack mice like Jonah Goldberg dubbed Gen. Clark another phoney from Arkansas. The list grows lengthier. McSame's honorable service ended many years ago. Ask his cell mate from Vietnam Phillip Butler who was POW longer than McSame

Ask Ted Kennedy or read his speech at the Dems' convention of 1980

Why don't you just admit your wrong if you can't back up the statement?

That's history and Mccain bristles when asked with good reason, and because it has been confirmed so many times over,

OK, lets see your proof

And Manju spare us that righteous indignation over swiftboating, coming as you do from he camp that invented it.

"coming from the camp"...nice gulit by association. i suppose by that logic you're coming from the camp that put japanese americnas in an internment camp or the one that just ran a southern streategy against obama. And you've been swifht boating mccains POW expericene for a while now--questioning his injuries, his decsion to stay a POW rather than accept release b/c other prisoners, and his personal decison to leave his wife-- while disenenuously bemoaning the very swiftbaoting that mccain condemed while it was happening to kerry.

you don't just come from the camp. you are the camp.

there is a word for a man who keeps quiet and sucks up to people who diss his daughter.

The word is Clintonian

McSame has not once spoken up for his fellow solidiers, sailors and airmen who have in exercise of their freedoms supported the Democratic Party. McSame kept quiet when Ann Coulter smeared Max Cleland and dismissed his triple limb loss as due to a DUI accident. McSame kept quiet when his fellow senator in georgia Chambliss dissed Cleland's record and questioned his patriotism. mcSame kept quiet while an assorted bunch of scumbags smeared John Kerry's distinguished service. McSame kept quiet when repug attack mice like Jonah Goldberg dubbed Gen. Clark another phoney from Arkansas.

I fact checked the your kerry claim. b/c i remember him condeming it. turns out your wrong:

McCain condemns anti-Kerry ad

you have a lot in common with the smearing "scumbags" and "mice" you condemn. hell, you even sound like ann coulter. i thought you were prema this whole time.

What I'd really like to know is, how many of us at SM have tasted a mooseburger? Just curious... Please report if you have.

...Ask Ted Kennedy or read his speech at the Dems' convention of 1980 Why don't you just admit your wrong if you can't back up the statement? ...That's history and Mccain bristles when asked with good reason, and because it has been confirmed so many times over, OK, lets see your proof ...And Manju spare us that righteous indignation over swiftboating, coming as you do from he camp that invented it.

"coming from the camp"
...nice gulit by association. i suppose by that logic you're coming from the camp that put japanese americnas in an internment camp or the one that just ran a southern streategy against obama. And you've been swifht boating mccains POW expericene for a while now--questioning his injuries, his decsion to stay a POW rather than accept release b/c other prisoners, and his personal decison to leave his wife-- while disenenuously bemoaning the very swiftbaoting that mccain condemed while it was happening to kerry. you don't just come from the camp. you are the camp.

McSame has not once spoken up for his fellow solidiers, sailors and airmen who have in exercise of their freedoms supported the Democratic Party. McSame kept quiet when Ann Coulter smeared Max Cleland and dismissed his triple limb loss as due to a DUI accident. McSame kept quiet when his fellow senator in georgia Chambliss dissed Cleland's record and questioned his patriotism. mcSame kept quiet while an assorted bunch of scumbags smeared John Kerry's distinguished service. McSame kept quiet when repug attack mice like Jonah Goldberg dubbed Gen. Clark another phoney from Arkansas.

...I fact checked the your kerry claim. b/c i remember him condeming it. turns out your wrong: ---McCain condemns anti-Kerry ad
you have a lot in common with the smearing "scumbags" and "mice" you condemn. hell, you even sound like ann coulter. i thought you were prema this whole time.

This is delicious! Manju you should check your sources before you speak up for McSame!

a.The Ted Kennedy reference is wrt Reagan not McSame. Please read up the speech for examples of the duplicitous utterances of Reagan, who among other things also opposed housing desgregation in California!
b.It is not a question of guilt by association, but guilt by associating with a camp that is run by, for and is composed of lobbyists and smear merchant notables like Michelle Malkin - who BTW is a leading light of the repugnant attack machine. malkin's claim to fame is a book justifying the internment of Japanese Americans, that was used by several other scumbags on the repugnant side to make a case to detain Arab-Americans! The Japanese-American internment horror of course is now part of our history and though we may forgive we never forget it even after their descendants have been compensated monetarily. This community has turned out enthusiastically for Obama! While we all make mistakes, some never repent and in fact go beyond that to justify the deed. The more honorable thing to do is to not only issue an apology but also reject the flawed principles that drove these deeds in the first place. What's a weak apology or a routine "condemnation" when Joe Corsi returns to work for the McSame camp with calling Obama an abomination? That makes sense given that at the Texas Repblican Party convention this year some delegates sported a pin that read "If Obama is President will we still call it the White House." while some sported one that read, "Republican Women Like Men", and another, "Life is a *****, don't vote for one - Hillary" This is campaign stuff not loon territory. If McSame had any scruples he would have stepped in a while ago to put an end to this sort of bigotry and prejudice. But then don't we know that this is all there is to what was once the proud party of leaders and visionaries many many decades ago?

Re POW, here's Philip Butler who spent more time than McSame at te Hanoi Hilton,

People often ask if I was a Prisoner of War with John McCain. My answer is always "No - John McCain was a POW with me." The reason is I was there for 8 years and John got there 2 ½ years later, so he was a POW for 5 ½ years. And we have our own seniority system, based on time as a POW. John was badly injured when he was shot down. Both arms were broken and he had other wounds from his ejection. Unfortunately this was often the case - new POW's arriving with broken bones and serious combat injuries. Many died from their wounds. Medical care was non-existent to rudimentary. Relief from pain was almost never given and often the wounds were used as an available way to torture the POW. Because John's father was the Naval Commander in the Pacific theater, he was exploited with TV interviews while wounded. These film clips have now been widely seen. But it must be known that many POW's suffered similarly, not just John. And many were similarly exploited for political propaganda. John was awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart for heroism and wounds in combat. This heroism has been played up in the press and in his various political campaigns. But it should be known that there were approximately 600 military POW's in Vietnam. Among all of us, decorations awarded have recently been totaled to the following: Medals of Honor - 8, Service Crosses - 42, Silver Stars - 590, Bronze Stars - 958 and Purple Hearts - 1,249. John certainly performed courageously and well. But it must be remembered that he was one hero among many - not uniquely so as his campaigns would have people believe.

John McCain served his time as a POW with great courage, loyalty and tenacity. More that 600 of us did the same. After our repatriation a census showed that 95% of us had been tortured at least once. The Vietnamese were quite democratic about it. There were many heroes in North Vietnam. I saw heroism every day there. And we motivated each other to endure and succeed far beyond what any of us thought we had in ourselves. Succeeding as a POW is a group sport, not an individual one. We all supported and encouraged each other to survive and succeed. John knows that. He was not an individual POW hero. He was a POW who surmounted the odds with the help of many comrades, as all of us did.

Ah! Clintonian! Did you read that Newsweek article? That's about calling up a smear merchant for contributions to a charity! Seriously is this the best you cnan come up with?

not drawing any conclusions about Sarah Palin ... but "someone" in the the McCain camp thought it would be a good/strategic idea to put a woman's name in the VP slot in order to win in November ... never thought i'd see the day ...

406 · jyotsana said

it is reported that George and Laura are selling their ranch and moving out to Dallas. Kerry is a very successful senator and much beloved in Massachusetts, so all residents of that state are infused with raw hatred and bigotry? No let's try this differently. Almost as many people voted for Kerry as did for Bush. So about half of those who voted in 2004 expressed raw bigotry and hatred? Or OK try this one. Obama won >50% of the Illinois vote in 2004, so >50% of Illinois expressed raw hatred and bigotry?

Blah..blah.. I'm talking about condemning large swaths of people because of where they happen to live which you do so easily. The fact that you can't even recognize that is very sad. All that hate's gonna burn you up.

The Ted Kennedy reference is wrt Reagan not McSame.

I know it is. I was responding to your assertion: "It is not OK to call FDR a fascist in 1978 and claim to praise his legacy accepting a nomination in 1980." which I debunked in #410. it's not a big deal., just admit you were mistaken if you can't substantiate the claim. otherwise, you are just like the very smear merchants you rail agianst.

It is not a question of guilt by association, but guilt by associating with a camp that is run by, for and is composed of lobbyists and smear merchant notables like Michelle Malkin

So why is this not applicable to you? You're asociated with a cmp that, l;ike Mark Penn, tryed to portry Obama as foreign, let Marc Rich go free, cheatted on and sexually harassed young women, had an iconic former VP candiate tell america obama is lucky to be black, spreads vicious 911 copnspriacy theorise like rosie o dennel and michal moore do. why are you not responsibel for this?

Re POW, here's Philip Butler who spent more time than McSame at te Hanoi Hilton,

How does this substantiate yuor charge that he was ordered to staty a POW rather than chose to do it in accordance with protocol?

Ah! Clintonian! Did you read that Newsweek article? That's about calling up a smear merchant for contributions to a charity! Seriously is this the best you cnan come up with

Hows this? No charity involved here just political expediency. And from the newsweek article:

"Last month Ruddy posted a softball interview with Clinton on the Newsmax site (sample question: "What is the best thing about being an ex-president?"). A worshipful cover story followed in the current edition of the magazine. Clinton, it gushed, is "a political and cultural powerhouse" who is "part Merlin and part Midas—a politician with a magical touch."

"it's not hard to figure out why the Clintons would embrace a former nemesis. As they prepared for Hillary's presidential run, the Clintons made quiet attempts to disarm, or at least neutralize, some of their most vocal opponents"

"The New York Times reported that the Clinton camp has also made efforts to open a line of communication to blogger Matt Drudge, who has served as a conduit for anti-Clinton GOP leaks."

"But his lawyer, Yale Gutnick, says Bill Clinton and Richard Mellon Scaife are now members of a "mutual admiration society." Cue the apocalypse."

Yes, its all about charity. no politcs here. I look forward to you asking "What type of father licks the boots of the men who abuse his daughter?" I won't hold my breath.

What's a weak apology or a routine "condemnation" when Joe Corsi returns to work for the McSame camp with calling Obama an abomination?

So you concede he condemned corsi but smear him with the charge that corsi works for him. can you substantiate the charge?

420 · bleh said

Blah..blah.. I'm talking about condemning large swaths of people because of where they happen to live which you do so easily. The fact that you can't even recognize that is very sad. All that hate's gonna burn you up.

Actually that is the conclusion one would draw from your characterisation of John Kerry. San Francisco values - to which Nancy Pelosi delivered a stinging rebuke; Hollywood values; far left in Taxachussetts; city *******, New York values etc. These are all terms conjured up by the radical nut fringe over the years. It is about making a virtue of ignorance, and a vice of knowledge. Pointyheads, eggheads, liberal professors, and the list goes on.

It is hard not to generalise when you hear it from people who have pounded the pavement and marched on after fighting water cannon, police K9 equipped beat cops, and vicious mayors - all for the right to vote.

Arnold Pinkney...in 1984, he was the national campaign manager for presidential candidate Jesse Jackson.

When I ran Jesse's national campaign in '84 and traveled around the country, given the attitude of people of people -- particularly in northern, blue-collar areas and in Appalachia -- absolutely not. Through the years, we would try to encourage Lou to run for the United States Senate from Ohio. We knew he was popular enough in Northeast Ohio, but we knew that he would never win statewide. In '84, campaigning with Jesse in West Virginia, going door to door, we were up on a porch where an old, white fellow was sitting on the porch. Jesse shook hands with him and the man said, "You know, Rev. Jackson, everything you say is true and everything you say is best for me and my people, but I could never vote for a black man for president of the United States." And other people said the same thing, but didn't say it as nicely.

In fact that is possibly why many senior black political leaders stayed clear of Obama to begin with - some of them have told me in person, "We never thought it was going to happen." This is not bigotry but realism. There are some smears that should be off-limits even for garbage scroungers like Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove. Dubbing Obama a celebrity or questioning his patriotism are some of them. Even the GOP convention theme "Country First" is a cheap shot at the Democratic Party. Calling Al Gore a liar for his alleged claim of inventing the Internet is a smear when Vint cerf confirms that Gore did more than anyone to popularise it and is justifiably the inventor of the modern net.

I have been following US politics since the Nixon years from his re-election in 1972. i learned about Barry Goldwater and Eisenhower much later. This is not the party they represented. This is a bunch led and controlled by scam artists, scum bags, smear merchants, and ignorant ranters. Goldwater and Eisenhower would be appalled to see what has become of their party.

I know it is. I was responding to your assertion: "It is not OK to call FDR a fascist in 1978 and claim to praise his legacy accepting a nomination in 1980." which I debunked in #410. it's not a big deal., just admit you were mistaken if you can't substantiate the claim. otherwise, you are just like the very smear merchants you rail agianst.

It is not a question of guilt by association, but guilt by associating with a camp that is run by, for and is composed of lobbyists and smear merchant notables like Michelle Malkin

So why is this not applicable to you? You're asociated with a cmp that, l;ike Mark Penn, tryed to portry Obama as foreign, let Marc Rich go free, cheatted on and sexually harassed young women, had an iconic former VP candiate tell america obama is lucky to be black, spreads vicious 911 copnspriacy theorise like rosie o dennel and michal moore do. why are you not responsibel for this?

Re POW, here's Philip Butler who spent more time than McSame at te Hanoi Hilton,

How does this substantiate yuor charge that he was ordered to stay a POW rather than chose to do it in accordance with protocol?

Ah! Clintonian! Did you read that Newsweek article? That's about calling up a smear merchant for contributions to a charity! Seriously is this the best you cnan come up with

?

Hows this? No charity involved here just political expediency. And from the newsweek article:
...

Yes, its all about charity. no politcs here. I look forward to you asking "What type of father licks the boots of the men who abuse his daughter?" I won't hold my breath.

Read the Ted Kennedy speech, surely by now you could have done that? I am not going to point out what the problem is with your argument, because you don't know it. Mark Penn campaigned for whom this time? You know that right? And even if I wouldn't like to have Mark Penn on my side, Michelle Malkin is so far out into the nuttosphere and is actually celebrated by routing repugs. Penn wass booted out. That's the difference. Surely you have seen Moore's Fahrenheit 911 and where's the conspiracy apart from showing the duffer-in-chief read my pet goat, and the haves and have-mores "my base"? I can understand it must hurt to have your side shown up for the pretenders and hypocrites they are. But someone's got to do it. In any case Rosie O'Donnell and Moore aren't campaigners. Malkin is. That's the difference. And what's this thing about accusing Barack Obama of being a Muslim? That's your good old friend - moonbat Ann Couler - who continues to refer to the Democratic Party Presidential candidate as B. Hussein Obama and Bill Clinton as a rapist. You haven't heard how Clinton dissed Coulter. That's what you get when you go against a guy who fights the smear. You still don't get the point about that Newsweek article - that's about working with the media not sucking up to a rival and licking his boots like McSame does these days.

Re McSame's POW excuse (a noun, a verb, and POW) it was just to tell you that McSame is at best as heroic as about 600 other POWs, several of whom who have sacrificed as much take a very poor opinion of his milking the story for personal gain and profiteering from it.

And don't hold your breath... McSame isn't about to grow a spine and confront his handlers. He gave up all pretense of dignity several years ago.

Read the Ted Kennedy speech, surely by now you could have done that? I am not going to point out what the problem is with your argument, because you don't know it.

Kennedy quoted reagan as saying; "Fascism was really the basis of the New Deal." so you assertion that he called FDR a fascist is wrong, though understandable for ann coulter like thinkers like you. reagan was pointing out that fascism was once a respectable ideology (mussolini's version) and was intertwined with various collectivist ideologies of the time, of which the new deal was one. many intellectuals praised it and it wasn't until the end of the non aggression pact that many of the left turned virulently anti-fascist. that and the spanish civil war. he didn't call fdr a fascist.

Penn was booted out. That's the difference

he was booted out for his connections to columbia, not for his southern strategy. he worked on clintons dnc speech, btw.

Bill Clinton as a rapist.

You don't believe Juanita Broderick? let me guess, you belive Anita Hill though.

Re McSame's POW excuse (a noun, a verb, and POW) it was just to tell you that McSame is at best as heroic as about 600 other POWs, several of whom who have sacrificed as much take a very poor opinion of his milking the story for personal gain and profiteering from it

And this makes him different from Kerry how?

You still don't get the point about that Newsweek article - that's about working with the media not sucking up to a rival and licking his boots like McSame does these days.

so you've created media exception to you "boot licking" smear artists charge? Not that I blame the clintons for doing it, thats politcal reality. Obama has licked hillary boot, but i'm sure you'll find an exception for that as well, in your simplistic world where wyou swift boat people while denouncing swift boating and talk of "ignorant ranters" while you ignorantly rant.