I am disgusted by the news that children were attacked, whether as a direct result of this DVD or not. But has the Clarion Fund done anything illegal? Reprehensible, yes. But illegal? I will reserve judgment until we get more information about their anonymous backers. I think the best way of dealing with this would be to ask the candidates to address the DVD - if it's as bad as it appears to be, they will both have to denounce it. But the way they denounce it may be elucidating.

How horrifying. How did this domestic terrorism not make headlines? CNN has nothing at all on their site, not even a text article.

Did America not learn anything from when Black churches were attacked?

McCain won't denounce it. He's railed against "islamic terrorists" since the primaries and this fearmongering helps his cause, apparently. Obama doesn't want to open himself up to criticism that he's naive on terrorism etc.

Question to the Mutiny: Are you in a swing state? Did you receive a DVD in your newspaper?

yes, live in a swing state. no, did not receive a copy. however, it's not hard to convince some virginians that BO is a scary muslimofascist. Aish HaTorah should lose their tax-exempt status. Just for sheer stupidity. All the addresses match up.

I'm sure razib will be along shortly to discuss the truthiness level of this film.

if it's as bad as it appears to be, they will both have to denounce it. But the way they denounce it may be elucidating.

You would think. But one of the articles I stumbled across in doing research said that both candidates had not heard about the distribution of the videos in the newspapers. This of course is not unusual - in the 2004 elections 527 and PACs were the big organizations that were running parallel progressive/conservative campaigns that the presidential candidates knew nothing of.

At the same time, this has been getting a lot of recent coverage, and the videos haven't fully been shipped out. I think that neither candidate is going to denounce the video until it's too late. I mean, I think this crime at the mosque is signal that it's already too late. But I agree, both candidates need to denounce the video distribution ASAP. I just don't think either of them will with five weeks until Election Day.

Unfortunately, Muslims in swing states do not have the freedom of praying freely this year.

Such a sweeping declaration based on the following stray incident:,

a “chemical irritant” was sprayed through a window of the Islamic Society of Greater Dayton...

which hasn't even been proved to be a hate crime yet. No wonder your political affiliation disguised as ' cry wolf ' hysteria fatigues people from noticing real hate crimes.

Clarion Fund done anything illegal? Reprehensible, yes. But illegal?

Perhaps. They've admitted that they're targeting the DVD in swing states, but they say it isn't to sway the election (which would lose them their tax exemption) but instead to get more press coverage because the media only cares about things in swing states.

This is a cause and effect story. The cause is their cause; promote fear and paranoia of Muslims by mass distribuion of this video (which I am intentionally not linking to).

I saw the first part of this documentary on YouTube and I know someone involved in the roll-out. While I don't agree with the documentary's point of view, I think the statement above is problematic to say the least. What evidence is there exactly that this horrific attack on the mosque is inspired by the DVD? Taz, I understand you are outraged, but your claim is completely unsubstantiated. You can't just claim an organization is inciting hate crimes without some sort of backing. Just because Daily Kos does it doesn't mean SM should blindly accept that conclusion without investigation.

And this is coming from someone utterly disgusted with both the crime as well as the documentary.

Bada Bing said:

which hasn't even been proved to be a hate crime yet.

Yes, Taz pointed that out in her post:

Dayton Ohio Police decided that the event was NOT a hate crime.

Legal definition of hate crime aside, do you think that somebody used a noxious chemical as a lark, and perhaps really likes Muslims? Is there another plausible explanation that fits the action?

But one of the articles I stumbled across in doing research said that both candidates had not heard about the distribution of the videos in the newspapers.

Has anyone actually seen this video ? Any details of what it contains ?

8 · SpottieOttieDopaliscious said

And this is coming from someone utterly disgusted with both the crime as well as the documentary.

good for you man, gotta keep those strawmen in line. You know, when she wrote "to promote mass fear and paranoia" and you thought, "direct attribution of attack to the documentary, must save reputation of friend involved in roll-out and then claim neutrality as a hater of both docu and crime"

And this is coming from someone utterly disgusted with both the crime as well as the documentary.

What is in the documentary? And what's disgusting or factless about it?

13 · Bada Bing said

What is in the documentary? And what's disgusting or factless about it?

http://www.obsessionwithhate.com/

Highlights from a St. Pete Times article:
1.In the film, men in traditional Middle Eastern dress burn an American flag. The planes fly into the twin towers. Peaceful scenes of Muslims at market and prayer are interspersed with violent scenes and commentators critical of Islam.
2."...A Clarion Web site linked the film to the presidential candidates..."McCain's policies seek to confront radical Islamic extremism and terrorism and roll it back while Obama's, although intending to do the same, could make it worse," said the site. This statement was later removed.

3.There are a number of connections between the Clarion Fund and a well-known organization called Aish HaTorah, an international charity founded in Israel in the 1970s.

For all we know the irritant could have been sprayed into the Mosque by a peeved Muslim teen ager who would rather be vandalizing property and drinking beer than praying to an imaginary god.

Are you in a swing state? Did you receive a DVD in your newspaper?

Haven't received the DVD with my WSJ and NYTimes (Michigan).

there is a certain irony here. a film that links incediary comments by muslims to islamic terrorism is itself accused of causing anti-islamic terrorism b/c its incediary.

the deeper question is to what extent must a society look at itself when radicals within that society commit terrorist acts? was mcveigh a lone wacko? or was he part of a radical militia movement that radicalized him. to what extent is this movement a product of greater American society, to American racism and anti-semitism in particular? is it fair to call rush Limbaugh into question as some did after the oklahoma city bombing b/c his view appear to // McVeigh's? To what degree if any can we blame society for the actions of an individual?

Nayagan,

Actually, I don't see any strawmen. She wrote that this is a cause and effect story, then linked to the Documentary's sponsor as the cause. I'm not that concerned about the guy involved in the roll-out and I'm not trying to "save his reputation". But hey, if you want to accuse me of things personally, you can do it on my own blog. My views and who I support are documented there pretty thoroughly.

Actually, I think this attack is horrific enough that it merits its own post, without conflating it with an extremely controversial DVD which is sure to bring out the trolls. The attack is absolutely terrible, illegal and will (and should) be universally condemned. There is not a lot of wiggle room there.

The DVD on the other hand, is disgusting and fear-mongering. But it is not illegal (except for the possible political angle Ennis mentions) and like it or not, it reflects the views of a sizable minority of the American population (the same people who think Obama is a closet muslim). Fear of islamic radicalism has dominated the political discourse in this country for the past seven years. It is a topic worthy of discussion, I'm not trying to "claim neautrality". I'm against it. But pardon me for believing in that old-fashioned idea that when you accuse people of something so heinous, you should have some sort of validation to back it up.

The incident is sickening, whatever is in the film it does not take much to scare up a mob, it’s going to take a lot more years understanding and respect to enter the minds of the scared USA.

Eid Mubarak.

I'm in North Carolina and received this DVD the week previous. It's my understanding this ran in McClatchy newspapers.

Attacking children with chemical spray, sick stuff. Can we imagine what the reaction would be if kids in Sunday school at a Christian church were gassed?

I've seen this film and I think people are rushing to judgment. It's extremely even-handed - even goes as far as to make a note at the beginning that the film is not attempting to characterize the entire Muslim faith as "terrorists" - and only focuses on those radical extremists who commit these acts of terror against the West (and their own), while giving this entirely peaceful religion a bad name. It's an important topic and film that deserves to be part of the debate.

Can we imagine what the reaction would be if kids in Sunday school at a Christian church were gassed?

In Michigan this bombing is still talked about after 80 years.

22 · Ed Makeel said

I've seen this film and I think people are rushing to judgment.

Ok, Ed. Content of video aside - what are the chances that people are ALL actually going to put the video in the DVD player and watch the whole thing? I think that the people perpetuating fear against Muslims are the ones that won't watch the video fully, or even worse, get the DVD, look at the image of brown people on the cover and say, "Those damned Muslims..." without even watching the video. Let's say the content is decent - I really think the irresponsible distribution of material that looks like anti-Muslim propaganda is enough for the fear-mongering.

19 · SpottieOttieDopaliscious said

The DVD on the other hand, is disgusting and fear-mongering.

I was trying to understand your thought process--apologies for extrapolation but your conclusion is poorly supported and snark filled the void.

Taz is attributing the attack to a general state of paranoia and fear, which as you have written, is an understandable effect reasonably attributed to the viewing of this movie (not that this movie caused all the paranoia, but what was the motivation behind the attack? Hard intelligence on tanks steered by muslim infants? Paranoia and ignorance supply the motivation). You accused Taz of attributing the attack to the the movie itself (which could only be considered a proximate cause), but what I see is only a connection made to the paranoia effect.

Curiously, and contary to your own convictions, you chose to call Taz out on SM, which is not her blog.

Nayagan

I don't want to derail this thread so this will be my last response to you.

The manner in which Taz wrote this post conflates the attack with the DVD in my opinion. She talks about the the attack, then mentions the DVD, then goes back to describe the effects of the attack in detail. Her point seems to be that the two are linked; that the distribution of the DVD somehow incites people to commit hate crimes.

Call me crazy but I don't believe that the "general state of paranoia and fear" that some Americans feel is due to this documentary, or even any right-wing propoganda. I think it's more likely due to the increasing number of terrorist attacks conducted by, yes, Islamic militants throughout the globe, not just in the West but countries like India, Indonesia and Thailand that people see in the news. And even if I accept your point that Americans are easily seduced and all it takes is some nationalistic rhetoric to get them to gas mosques, I still would rather the focus be on the villains who perpetrated the event rather than some clearly political fear-mongering taking place. It's sort of like invading Iraq when you should be trying to capture Bin laden.

So if the point is that we are all so helpless in the face of an onslaught of propoganda, where does personal responsibility for our actions come in? The next time a cop beats the crap out of a protester, are you going to blame Rush Limbaugh for engendering hatred of liberals?

And as for "calling Taz out", I took issue with her post and the manner in which she framed the two subjects. SM might not be Taz's blog, but I can find at least 5 instances without a problem of her referring to it using "we" and I was under the impression that she was in fact a regular contributor. My comment to you was only to avoid doing exactly this, taking the thread off topic.

18 · Manju said

the deeper question is to what extent must a society look at itself when radicals within that society commit terrorist acts?

Totally, dude. That's why I say let's take a good look at ourselves in the context of all our warmongering. You do know that we're killing innocent people every day, right? Bombing wedding parties from on high and whatnot. Those are people, too.

How did we let these JESUS CAMP mofos take the reigns?

A twelve-minute excerpt of the video is up at Google. I don't think it's giving the filmmakers or distributors anything to link to it -- the video has gotten so much press already that the "don't pay attention to them" argument no longer applies.

From the parts I've seen, the video is exactly as bad as has been said. I feel bad for the Arabs in particular whose statements were used in the video -- like Nonie Darwish -- since it's their voices that make this anything other than an amateur collage video, with white people with no particular credentials or knowledge mouthing off about Islam. The Arabs they interviewed give it (a bit) more credibility.

To amend my previous comment -- I feel sympathy for Khaleel Mohammed, more than Nonie Darwish. Prof. Khaleel Mohammed now says the filmmakers misstated the credentials of the other interviewees in the film when they invited him to be interviewed.

"But the material from some of the speakers gives the lie to the disclaimer: many of them are not experts, or have used the mantle of academic qualifications to purvey hate. That their alarmist drivel should be mixed with my whittled down interview proves that the intent of the film is not to educate, but to mislead. The free distribution of the film to voters in particular districts shows the political chicanery that is the motive, and the secrecy about the financing of the distribution only underlines the evil intent in circulating this vile piece of propaganda.

there is a certain irony here. a film that links incediary comments by muslims to islamic terrorism is itself accused of causing anti-islamic terrorism b/c its incediary.

Haven't received the DVD with my WSJ and NYTimes (Michigan).

I doubt the subscribers of either of these would be the target demography. Buy the local far right dumb tosh, maybe you'll get it then.

30 · bess said

Manju, please, give us the bill cosby version ; )

all you bums are responsible for you own actions. stop blaming others. get a life!

Prof. Khaleel Mohammed now says the filmmakers misstated the credentials of the other interviewees in the film when they invited him to be interviewed.

Hmmm... guess he never saw that technique utilized to great effect in that Borat film.

26 · SpottieOttieDopaliscious said

Call me crazy but I don't believe that the "general state of paranoia and fear" that some Americans feel is due to this documentary, or even any right-wing propoganda

well, i severely doubt the perps would be regular consumers of the hated "MSM." Obsession was previewed on Glen Beck's radio show (yes, i know he's on cnn headline) and fox news, in addition to the pajamas media-affiliated blogosphere.

there is no case to be made for criminalizing the film makers or trashing the 1st amendment--but there is a moral component and there's no shame in calling the film makers out

Now if you wish to outline a rational basis for paranoia, since there have been so many terrorist attacks within the US, post 9/11, I heartily invite you to do so (or snootily avoid me out of respect for the integrity of the thread). It's clear, at least to me, that recent domestic events dominating the news cycle bear no relation to this attack and that the perps likely don't give a hoot about what happens in Pakistan, India, Thailand or wherever terrorism actually happens on a semi-regular basis. they do, however, care about whatever propaganda Limbaugh/Savage/Beck/LGF/AOS/Malkin etc are peddling.

I doubt the subscribers of either of these would be the target demography. Buy the local far right dumb tosh, maybe you'll get it then.

Even if I got it, I wouldn't pop it into the player. Taz asked if folks in swing states got it. She also referenced the WSJ & NYT. I responded.

Question to the Mutiny: Are you in a swing state? Did you receive a DVD in your newspaper?

the DVDs were distributed last weekend in national editions of the New York Times and Wall Street Journal within selected swing states.

Nayagan and SpottieOttieDopaliscious. You have a principled disagreement, and I respect that. But you've both made your points, so could we please let it rest for now? I know both of you are capable of having a civil debate, but I'd rather this didn't spill out of control when other people pile on. Danke.

all you bums are responsible for you own actions. stop blaming others. get a life!

I doubt the subscribers of either of these would be the target demography. Buy the local far right dumb tosh, maybe you'll get it then.

Very sad and a bit unsettling. Hope this is the last time something like this happens but who knows.

Didn't Pres. Bush declare that Islam is a peaceful religion? I would think conservatives who voted for him would listen to him on this issue. Democrats and liberals usually don't commit these sorts of crimes to religious minorities. As my conservative relatives (and other random conservatives have stated) say, the bleeding heart libs are "too busy collecting welfare checks", or strumming their acoustic guitars and protesting against the Iraq war or just being "gay". So busy liberals don't have time to do mischief like this against minorities.

as you hear what conservatives are bound to say regarding how this DVD is only meant to call out ‘radical’ Islamists and not ‘moderate’ Muslims

I don't see how they are wrong, Radical Islam is in a war against the West, blind freddy can see that and it din't start on 9/11.

Sorry for not answering the question. In West Hartford Connecticut we never received any DVD or offer to buy the DVD in the newspapers. This is the first time I have ever heard of it (after reading this Sepia Mutiny posting).

If I do receive it, the DVD will make a good coaster to protect the finish on my new wooden end table. (Pet owners can line the bottom of bird cages, litter boxes, etc with the DVD and its packaging. It's a great way to recycle. Oh, there's another thing that liberals are too busy doing - recycling to save the planet and environment.)

1. Spraying the Ramadan service = unacceptable and should be denounced by anyone and everyone! Without question.

2. Using an objectionable practice (i.e. using religion indirectly to candidates) = Not too good, but definitely not illegal. US is not like India where the Election Commission bans religious campaigning at times. This is a shrewd tactic and many such things taken together might actually make a difference in this election.

3. However, to use the objectionable points above to dismiss the DVD as crapola = not acceptable either. It is certainly inflammatory, but I would like to ask the critics if it has *any* valid points. After the Islamic terrorism (even if it is a smaller sub-segment of Islam) has hit so many countries with everything from airplanes to suicide bombs, do you honestly think that one such "documentary" is unacceptable?

Now the fact that a small minority of power seeking clerics use the jihad calls to stay in power, and the fact that the little girl spewing venom in that video is totally incongruous is just one side of the argument. The other side of the argument is that these clerics are not being kept in check by lot of authorities, who ought to come down hard on them, no matter what the short term costs. Characters like Abu Hamza need to be put away much earlier than they are right now.

Racial hatred is like snow, this is the season for it, nothing much you can do other than cover up in layers. I personally don't believe in trying to change the thought processes of rednecks, better to stay away from them.

Having said that, I also think that the Muslim community shares some of the blame for their current plight. If the average Muslim had come out against the radicals as they started their business, and stayed with that criticism and opposition, people would've had a more nuanced view of Muslims. For a clear and current comparison, look at the way different sections of Hindus are responding to the VHP's latest adventures in Orissa and Karnataka.

What you are seeing is another instance of First they Came..., it is a little late for the outrage.

Thank you Weather. 100% agreed. Better to focus on the youth through education. And this should be a hate crime, btw.

The attack on the prayer hall is condemnable. It is a hate crime.

Am watching the documentary now on you tube. contrary to what some have said before, it does have some credibility. The clippings from Arab television shows, the interviews of Hamza and other such folk in UK and else where, if they are genuine, do give some cause for concern. the documentary makes it amply clear from the beginning that it is about radical Muslims who are a minority within the community and have hijacked the religion. So it seems to make an effort at even handedness.

Weather said, "Having said that, I also think that the Muslim community shares some of the blame for their current plight. If the average Muslim had come out against the radicals as they started their business, and stayed with that criticism and opposition, people would've had a more nuanced view of Muslims.

All due respect, that's unfair. IMHO, Western media has generally diminished coverage of Muslims who vocally criticize either radical Islam or even those who seek to revisit the gray areas of human rights within Islam as it is generally practiced. When these moderates do criticize more fundamental aspects of the religion, they are always presented within the context of persecution. God forbid that a journalist cover a Muslim advocating women's rights or a Shariah revision without the reading of a fatwah issued by some little known tribal goofball in who cares where.

A subtext exists within many of the comments that is disturbing. It appears that some of you hold Islam accountable for its radical elements.

I've attended numerous kutbahs led by Saudi, Syrian and Palestinian Imams (notoriously conservative) who have censured terrorism, violence and suicide bombing. Many of these took place years before 9/11. I ask you, again, with respect, how many of you who agree with the comment above have actually attended a Jumah prayer and listened to what our Imams have to say? Or conducted a rigorous search of books and articles by Muslims which predate 9/11? You read dilutions of what we believe, of how we feel, what we write and of what we say. And then the dilution serves as ammunition.

This accusation against non-radical (I find the need to even use that descriptor offensive) Muslims and Islam with respect to radical terrorism is hefty, so I hope that you can substantiate it with more than "Well, I didn't see anything on TV/read it on the front page/or see it in Google News." I hope you have some direct experience with a Muslim going, "Aww, gee, another suicide bomber? Oh, whatever."

All ideologies, religious or not, intrinsically carry seeds of fundamentalism, violence and radicalism. PETA, anyone? Some of you, and you know who you are, should revisit your own perceptions about Muslims, radical or not, and ask yourselves if you are being fair. Or if you're being prejudicial. Dig deep.

As a human being, I express outrage over terrorism in any form. My duty to humanity, irrespective of my religion, dictates that I express outrage. And I do, often.

But, here are some articles for those of you who question the dedication of us "moderates" (sigh, eye roll, another annoying descriptor) to censuring terrorism. Too little, too late? No, you haven't been listening until now.

I live in swing state and am glad they sent it out. What do find so objectionable about it? They made a point of distinguishing between moderates and radicals. Now CAIR wants to prevent a private organization from distributing a DVD? Free speech in this country will go the way of Europe if CAIR has its way. Hell they wanted to ban Rushdie in 1987 because he was "offensive" to Islam. If Obama is as opposed to militant Islam as the left says he is why are you so afraid a video like this will affect his chances in swing states?

Also they haven't even arrested someone and you want to presume this a hate crime? The police shouldn't rule it out, but neither should you automatically assume it to be the case.

I bet this message stays for a few minutes before the sepia thought police come charging in.

seriously, who orders print newspapers anymore? it has to be targeted towards luddite mccainiacs.

I don't believe that Muslims have done enough to condemn the nut cases within their community. Indeed, if anything, at least in my experience, my co religionists in the States are increasingly developing the nasty habit of blaming it all on the United States, Israel and India [in the latter's case, only if you are South Asian Muslims].

If anything, we have actively tried to stifle any voice, which has dared highlight our flaws from within. Ask Irshad Manji and Wafa Sultan.

I hope the American Left is not fooled by the current Muslim support for Barack Obama. This temporary support is primarily driven by Bush's seriously idiotic "War on terror" and the equally idiotic belief amongst some Muslims that, deep, deep, down Obama has a soft spot for his father and grand father's faith.
In case my Liberal friends need any reminders, on social issues [like prayer in school, abortion and gay marriage], most Muslims in America have more in common with Rush Limbaugh than even with the Right wing of the Democratic Party.

equivalent to being beaten up and thrown in jail, when a group of non-muslims are found worshipping in private in saudi arabia?.....
if you think this country is not tolerant enough, you could relocate to saudi arabia..... just a suggestion.

All due respect, that's unfair.

Sure, I do believe that there is disagreement within the Muslim community about terrorism, and that the community is not a single monolith like the western media makes it out to be. However, if the disagreement stays as academic exercises in theology, it doesn't help the poor Malini and Ramesh on the street, who faces the bombs.

Consider this: there was a shootout in Delhi the other day, and the Delhi police claimed to have killed two Muslim terrorists in that incident. Couple of days later, a fact-finding mission, comprising mostly of Hindus, went to that location, and came out with the finding that the shootout was staged. Even though a highly respected police inspector, a Hindu, died in the shootout. Now, in the hundreds of bombings all over India, how many times have Muslims formed a similar congregation to come out and criticize the bombers? Or help catch them? Or ostricize the organizations and imams who spread hate? To identify them and their front organisations, as Hindus in America have done in the case of VHP activists here? How many such congregations were formed to protect Kashmiri Hindus?

The principle is simple: if you don't stand up for your fellow men, don't expect anyone to stand up for you. Of course, standing up doesn't necessarily mean that someone will be there for you, but it gives you the right to **expect** help, and be outraged if it is not forthcoming. It is only now, when the lack of action all these years has ossified into a terrorist image, that the Muslim community leaders have started issuing half-hearted statements denouncing terrorism. But that's not going to help.

Because only actions matter, words wither away, especially when uttered within seminaries.

wowww, i don't even know what to say except that its HELLA messed up.

"...let them know that you are unhappy about it..."

How presumptuous and arrogant??!!!Did you assume - the way you feel is the right way?..even without letting others to decide on their own? Wow!!

Interesting article on the dvd on HuffPo. Who's behind it, what newspapers did and did not let it go out, and the American Muslim response.

most Muslims in America have more in common with Rush Limbaugh than even with the Right wing of the Democratic Party.

really? Most Muslims? In all of America? Please, don't let ridiculous generalizations and hyperbole stop you from making asinine statements.

Eid Mubarak, everyone.

"Zainab M.: I don't believe that Muslims have done enough..[and]... are increasingly developing the nasty habit of blaming it all on the United States, Israel and India we have actively tried to stifle any voice, which has dared highlight our flaws...most Muslims in America have more in common with Rush.."

Yes, a lot of Muslims tend to play the "blame game." A conversation with my parents def. reinforces the point. But, most of my American born Muslim friends don't do that. But, I could have some exceptionally awesome friends.

In terms of nutcases, why do I have to take *responsibility* for not condemning OBL just because he calls himself a Muslim? Muslims are required to stand up to injustice, so, yes, the obligation to condemn him exists because people like him are, in their own way, perpetrators of oppression and social chaos. Taking responsibility for his actions based upon the fact that he's Muslim implies that I believe his actions are grounded in faith.

I don't believe that's entirely the case. People like Osama use faith as propaganda, as do many other haters in other religions. (If he's even alive, hello, renal failure??) There's a great deal of academic literature which suggests that "Islamic radicals" are more of a manifestation of post-colonial politics (blame game alert!!). You can read about people like Sayyid Qutb to get a general idea of that concept. (This is a wiki article, go to the library if you want more - but, be prepared to be put on an extra special DoHS "list").

Manji and Sultan have had support from the Muslim community, albeit their critics are far more numerous and far *louder*. It's hard to be heard over the explosion of a suicide bomber. My uncle, a Muslim, is a publisher who worked very hard to get Manji's book published in both Pakistan and India. He worked with her and book distributors (some of them also Muslim) in those countries to ensure that her voice was heard. I suppose since nobody issues death threats against people like him, there's no "story" there.

Zainab, I don't mean to pontificate (oops, too late) or be rude, but you have some reading to do. Read up on abortion in Islam, I think you'll be (pleasantly?) surprised. Prayer in schools? I don't recall any American Muslims demanding everyone say salat in school, but that their kids be allowed to perform prayers privately (a 10 minute thing) and that they be exempted from participation in non-Islamic prayers. Gay marriage? Well, you got me on that. Work needs to be done on gaying up the Ummah (uh, oh, here come the fatwas!! bring it on.). I'm sure some young enterprising gay Muslim academic will one day make the effort to immerse themselves in the texts and prove that God loves them, too. Which I'm sure He does. That is, if he or she is invested deep enough in the religion to even care.

I know my posts have been long on these comments, but some of you asked for it. I'm speaking up, ok? Read a few books, talk to a couple of scholars. Or, if you don't have the time, ahem, keep the generalizations to yourself and just be an undercover bigot. I'd prefer that people stop blaming those of us who are trying to affect change within our faith for the actions of terrorist organizations just because all of us happen to pray in the same direction. (Muslims don't kill people, terrorists do. No? Yeah, I didn't think that was very clever either.)

In terms of the DVD (oooh, yeah, that). It sucks. But, I don't recall Taz writing that legislation should be passed banning the DVD? She has a right to hate it and think it's garbage if she wants to.

So, I've made my point. SM Intern, you don't have to tell me to stop posting. ;) I'd love to continue this dialogue with anyone via e-mail, provided they don't act like a jerk.

@More Weather: I just read your last comment. Again, with respect, I think you're being very one sided in your approach as well as your criticisms. In the interest of communal harmony here at Sepia Mutiny, I'm going to defer and let you have the last word. Peace.

Oh, wait, unless you say something, I'll have the last word. Sweet. Fingers crossed.

50 · More Weather said

how many times have Muslims formed a similar congregation to come out and criticize the bombers?

In fact the newspapers i read are full of muslims condemning such incidents unequivocally. Change your newspaper.

the Muslim community leaders have started issuing half-hearted statements denouncing terrorism.

Why are you presuming these are half hearted? Because your arguments are half assed?

Eid mubarak, and may the fleas of arabian camels infest the armpits of the world's communalists.

I have seen the documentary "Obsession", a copy was available in my library. I find nothing offensive in there. It is similar to the many "Anand Patwardhan" movies showing "violent Hindu extremism"

http://www.patwardhan.com/reviews/rkn_otherreactions.htm

I remember seeing one documentary in the state run television in India when Congress was ruling (I think).

Looks like youtube has the whole movie. Goto youtube and search for "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West", there are 10 parts.

you can figure out for yourself without relying on second hand info.

I haven't seen the video (only short clips, including endorsements from various news sources), but let's say the video does an excellent job of portraying the nuances of terrorism, and the difference between terrorists who use Islam as their cause vs. the millions of Muslims with no connection to terrorism whatsoever... I still agree with Taz:

Let's say the content is decent - I really think the irresponsible distribution of material that looks like anti-Muslim propaganda is enough for the fear-mongering.

From the 10 part clips on youtube, it seems that the documentary is close to (or longer than) a full 60 minutes. How many people are going to actually sit down, and appreciate the full film? The image on the cover - the title, with the symbol of Islam on one side, and a rifle on the other. How nuanced is that?

And the fact that the documentary is a well-informed take to viewers here say nothing of how viewers of a particular mindset would view it. Haven't there been studies that show no matter what evidence is presented, individuals will use the evidence to reinforce their prior convictions rather that view the evidence objectively and possibly to overturn their convictions?

If this organization's real attempt was to start a dialogue on terrorism, or to inform people, why didn't they sponsor local viewings + discussion? The mass production and way in which the DVD was sent seems like a political maneuver to me.

"The poisoning of little children"

you do this alot - you may have some point but you resort to sensationalism and fabrication to prove your point - in this case it's borrowed from a specious "email by a witness," taken second or third hand, at other times you just make something up, and then you're called on it and you say you might have made a mistake, but your point still stands.

No chemical was found on the little girl - nothing at all. She certainly wasn't "poisoned," as you write. It's reasonable that police didn't charge a hate crime because there's absolutely no evidence of a crime, period, nor any injury. The imam doesn't link the dvd and the girl being sprayed.

You have no credibility as a writer. You lack the ability to criticize the dvd so you make up something else: "and then they poisoned a little girl!"

To reply to noblekinsman:

FYI They found a can of pepper spray near the mosque

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/09/30/ddn093008mosquecopsweb.html

Sorry to burst your bubble, it looks like a crime was committed. I live in Dayton, and I can tell you it is very odd to find cans of pepper spray laying around. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if a couple of good ol' boys sprayed those kids.

"No chemical was found on the little girl - nothing at all. She certainly wasn't "poisoned," as you write. It's reasonable that police didn't charge a hate crime because there's absolutely no evidence of a crime, period, nor any injury. "

So, following your logic (or lack thereof), the muslims just up and decided to stop their Ramadan services, call 911, and evacuate the building for no apparent reason? And before you reply, fire and rescue squad found no evidence of a natural gas leak.

It's safe to say that you don't have the credibility to criticize anyone.

Unfortunately, Muslims in swing states do not have the freedom of praying freely this year.

Say what? I live in a swing state. A local church was burned down recently. Does that mean Christians can't pray freely now? And how are you so sure this is tied to the DVD? In every swing state? You're going to condemn every swing state and cause fear/division in every swing state because of what some mo***** c***s*** a***hole did.

This is disgusting fear-mongering on the part of Taz. Is this politics of reconciliation and hopeychanginess the Obama Youth are going to bring us?

Have you even seen the video?

46 • vikram said

I bet this message stays for a few minutes before the sepia thought police come charging in.

Doesn't that remark seem stupid, now? Your obnoxious parting shot still exists.

Faiqa, We wish you would continue to participate on the thread, if only because you are passionate, eloquent and providing balance; besides, if you go, the communalists will go back to complaining about how "no Muslims" stand up to extremism.

Something to keep in mind: the majority of our readers do not comment. Don't take their lack of commenting on this thread as a blessing on terrorist activity.

Many of them don't bother discussing posts anymore, in part because the level of discourse here has dropped. We hear/read a lot of, "What's the point in commenting?". Additionally, and especially recently, the loudest commenters are people to whom many of us don't relate. To that end, we wish some of you would remember that this is a second generation-centric blog, about the American Desi experience, and we write what we know. We never intended to be a place to discuss the politics of India. Bringing up what happens there isn’t helpful.

Finally, there are ways to make your point without resorting to personal attacks. If your comment was deleted, now you know why.