I think it's a little too soon for him to be shown in public flirting or cozying up with any woman so soon after Bhutto's death. She was a martyr for democracy in Pakistan and her husband, a man who politically milked the good will of his dead wife for all it was worth, is continuing to shame her while she lies in her grave. And no, I am not an "increasingly assertive conservative" Pakistani, nor am I at all surprised at the reaction such a poorly thought out action has attracted back in the East. Zardari is a packaged imbecile, crook, and disgrace.

Ok, wow, the whole fatwa thing is somewhat hilarious, but stupid, its not like he had an affair with her or anything. But i have to agree with those feminists, shes a politician, and he should show some respect and not talk to her however he pleases. See this is what turns me off about brown men, i don't really feel that they are treating me as an equal and i feel judged a lot by my appearance. maybe palin should have showed up in a burqa.

The more these sorts of discussions go on, the more I realize that I'm more "A" than "D" in terms of ABD--e.g., I have good Vietnamese friend (I guess one might call her an (ABV)) who would *scoff* at the notion that Palin is in fact wearing a "short skirt,"--after all, my ABV friend would say (and, I see what she means by saying this), it is *not* mid-thigh or higher!! Yeah, Vietnamese-Americans!!!

BTW, in full disclosure, I guess my politics precedes my ethnic identity--that's why I have a lot of Cuban and Vietnamese friends--they're well-educated and---vote Republican! (not that I'm not skeptical about Palin)

Last year, the mosque that issued the fatwa, Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in Islamabad, condemned the former tourism minister, Nilofar Bahktiar, after she was photographed being hugged by a male parachuting coach in France.

As an open minded person (who is also female), I'm curious to know what was his intention when he made the awkward remarks for the whole world to witness. Perhaps he just wanted to break the ice or make a feeble attempt at humor to break the tension. Who knows. Or does he say silly things out of nervousness normally? Are there other examples of when he made some strange statements to other politicians or people? I am just trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. No one really knows what he was thinking at the time. But it did appear a bit sleazy.

Perhaps he just wanted to break the ice or make a feeble attempt at humor to break the tension. Who knows. Or does he say silly things out of nervousness normally? Are there other examples of when he made some strange statements to other politicians or people?

Please, (and apologizes to Razib for doing a cut-rate impression of him, but I mean it as both an "homage" and what I think myself!) why are you undermining Desi unity by suggesting that the Pakistani PM did anything wrong? Surely, the strumpet Palin is to blame for any remarks that Zardari made!!

"2 · fallen jhumki said

. See this is what turns me off about brown men, i don't really feel that they are treating me as an equal and i feel judged a lot by my appearance. maybe palin should have showed up in a burqa.

Unfortunately, many people in other cultures and groups do judge others by appearance. You might be shocked if you could hear frat boys talking about the opposite sex, or how catty some high school girls can be when talking about others not conforming to the latest fashions, or how overweight people are gawked at and made fun of in private. It is not just the brown men who judge others' appearances. Not all brown men act like a doofus in the company of ladies. Not trying to generalize here, but lots of non brown people do form opinions of others based on external appearances.

I will be honest. I probably won't try to befriend or get chummy with someone who looks or smells like they haven't bathed or groomed themselves. Although I fancy myself an open minded, liberal and liberated person, I have to draw the line at some point.

"It's not an election unless a fatwah is issued." LOL, but so true.

The Palin video was painful. I almost felt sorry for her. Almost. Still, just because she's inarticulate (that's diplomatic speak for stupid), doesn't make it OK for her to be disrespected.

I understand how this thing upset Pakistani feminists. A hug doesn't translate so easily into Pakistani culture. It means something different there than it does here.

It's socially (and, yes, religiously) unacceptable in Pakistan to hug members of the opp. sex who aren't related to you or to whom you aren't married. In Pakistan, a few years ago, I witnessed my 16 year old male ABD cousin trying to hug another cousin's wife at their first meeting. You should have seen the looks on everyone's faces. Loving and benign gesture from the American perspective, attempted rape from the Pakistani perspective. Not defending here, just explaining.

Perhaps, the point is best illustrated by the following analogy: Zardari asking Palin for a hug is like Bush asking to spank Gordon Brown. OMG, I just got the visual on that thought.

I also stand by the well known theory that Mr. Aziz actually meant that the one time he conquered a woman, he was done in two minutes. Give Uncle a break, English is tricky. (Did someone say that in a comment before? I don't feel the thrill of an original statement there?)

@gm Nice. I agree.

I probably won't try to befriend or get chummy with someone who looks or smells like they haven't bathed or groomed themselves. Although I fancy myself an open minded, liberal and liberated person, I have to draw the line at some point.

With all due respect, you're a bit confused there about what liberalism is about--taking a canonical position from, say, Mills through Rawls, you're *personally* allowed to shun someone b/c he or she is (a) Muslim or (b) smelly, but the *state* cannot shun someone for reason (a) *or* (b). So, your attempt to make a distinction between (a) and (b) in terms of your own conduct is--drum-roll--deeply illiberal.

Also, I was shocked that this is not new behavior for Pakistani leaders. They pride themselves on being lovers (better than being fighters I suppose):

Hey Abhi, you should try reading this blog Sepia Mutiny. They mentioned the Aziz incident a while ago.

I mean, of course, a *principled* distinction between (a) and (b), as opposed to a distinction as a matter of personal preference, which exactly what liberalism is meant to protect.

(not that I'm not skeptical about Palin)

I (honestly!) admire your ability to keep an open mind about somebody like her! (I'd link to more, but if you have to be informed about them...)

14 · mirror

I (honestly!) admire your ability to keep an open mind about somebody like her!

OK, assuming that that's sarcastic, *sorry* that I pay some attention to which side my bread is buttered on--you're so lacking in self-interest, "mirror," that I should bow before your altruism.

to which side my bread is buttered on

Is it the side with the moose on it?

A Fatwa does seem a bit extreme. A fatwa should be declared against ridiculous, violent and unreasonable fatwas.

Zardari may need a little public relations coaching for dealing with foreigners and females in general. Even Palin will be getting quite a bit of coaching so she won't trip over her words for future debates and interviews.

(To Rob @11, I AM "illiberal" only on the subject of befriending unkempt people with evil smells or random weirdos. However, I do not transform into a fascist in their presence or at the mere thought of such individuals. My motto is live and let live.)

hugged by a male parachuting coach in France

As long as it's not a golden parachute, I don't see why it's anybody's business. Those frogs are a wily bunch, though...

8 · gm said

Unfortunately, many people in other cultures and groups do judge others by appearance. You might be shocked if you could hear frat boys talking about the opposite sex, or how catty some high school girls can be when talking about others not conforming to the latest fashions, or how overweight people are gawked at and made fun of in private. It is not just the brown men who judge others' appearances.

While I agree with you that people across cultures judge others by appearance and that fallen jhumki made a simple, somewhat offensive generalization, desi culture is one of those cultures where people's bodies are fair game for comment and conversation, like, the way that uncles and aunties have no compunction telling their nieces and nephews that they're too fat or too thin or really ought to do something about those pimples. I know that this is similarly acceptable in other cultures, too, but maybe it was this cultural tendency that fallen jhumki was impoliticly referring to?

16 · mirror Is it the side with the moose on it?

Can't say I know much about moose, I'm talking about $$.

This political season is bringing out some really strange, dare I say it, bedfellows. Even more so in the subcontinent, where recently in India the Left and Right had ganged up against the Indo-US nuclear deal. Here we have another example. By the looks of it, on this issue, Pakistani feminists and Islamists are seeing, er, eye to eye. Oh, the irony. Fundamentalism really can take more than one form, and it almost seems that the ideological plane is in curved space, so that if you get too far out on one side, you join hands with the other.

"I consider myself a feminist too."
Huh?
A man cannot be feminist by definition, maybe a feminist sympathizer.

A man cannot be feminist by definition,

From Answers.com:

feminist
(fĕm'ə-nĭst)

n.

A person whose beliefs and behavior are based on feminism.

feminism
(fĕm'ə-nĭz'əm) pronunciation

n.

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

Resolved. Next!

Physical contact works differently in different countries. When George W. Bush was photographed holding hands with the Saudi King, some rigfht-wing American commentators thought it was wierd. When old-time soviet leaders used to kiss each other, fervent homosexual-hating anti-communists felt validated.

If Bush met Putin with a big wet kiss on the lips -- would Americans be outraged? What if Palin met Putin the same way? What if Sarkozy tried the double-cheek-kiss with Palin? (the cheeks on her face -- keep your filthy thoughts to yourself, be-sharam.)

All that said, Zardari's creepy behaviour is a small thing.

Fundamentalism really can take more than one form, and it almost seems that the ideological plane is in curved space, so that if you get too far out on one side, you join hands with the other.

Chachaji, has Randall Munroe invited you to do a guest contribution to xkcd?

Fundamentalism really can take more than one form, and it almost seems that the ideological plane is in curved space, so that if you get too far out on one side, you join hands with the other.

Chachaji,
Is you kidding? Fundamentalism? Too far? Is that how you see Tahira Abdullah’s remarks?

Strategic nature of this hug can't be over-emphasized. Zardari can see Tajikistan from his backyard. While Palin keeps an eye on 3-mile wide maritime boundary in the Bering Strait, Zardari keeps 10-mile narrow Wakhan Corridor under control. Putin is so dead.

26 · Amol said

Is that how you see Tahira Abdullah’s remarks?

Actually, yes. I heard her in Urdu as well. She's extremely articulate, and I am bilingual, as well as sensitive to nuance. But here, I almost felt she had gone over to the other side. This is not to belittle her other work on advocacy, consciousness raising, and much other brave and solid good stuff. Not at all. By 'fundamentalism' I simply meant an ideology that tends to reduce complex issues in terms of simpler 'fundaments'.

There's a more convincing, and simpler explanation to the whole 'Zardari thing'.s

Just what the Z-man needed, a fatwa. After Rushdie got the big F, models couldn't keep thier hands off him. Of course, his F was much more prestigious; but still, this should help Zardari's game. The babes love the fatwa.

Someone should issue HMF one.

donno what good the fatwa is but if there was a title 'sleazy old uncle', Zardari sure earned it.

Chahaji,
Thanks for the link. I still don’t see how Mohtarma Tahira Abdullah Sahiba’s stance could be seen as “too far”. To be honest though, I dropped off after other panelists started comparing Bhutto and Palin’s looks (24:00).
PS. Asma Jahangir also landed couple of good punches. Worth translating it for Urdu challenged folk.

31 · Amol said

PS. Asma Jahangir also landed couple of good punches. Worth translating it for Urdu challenged folk.

I agree. Asma Jehangir made good points in her short appearance via teleconference in that show, which presented perspectives from women right across the political spectrum in Pakistan, and is probably worth watching just for that reason. Incidentally, Tahira's more incendiary stuff is toward the end, which you seem to have dropped off.

Unfortunately I'm not upto translating and transcribing Hamid Mir's 40-minute long talk show with more than a half-dozen participants, however interesting it might be! But people interested in how this incident played in Pakistan - in political circles - should check it out.

A Fatwa should give him street cred now. Someone should come up with a medal that "fatwaed" folk can hang on their chests. "Yeah, I earned that for courage under heavy mullah fire"

4 · rob said

that's why I have a lot of Cuban and Vietnamese friends--they're well-educated and---vote Republican! (not that I'm not skeptical about Palin)

rob, some of my best friends are republican too.

33 · Vikram said

A Fatwa should give him street cred now. Someone should come up with a medal that "fatwaed" folk can hang on their chests. "Yeah, I earned that for courage under heavy mullah fire"

Ha, ha. I'm so going to do that.

Besides, hasn’t Zardari grieved as a widower for long enough?

Ha Ha... Abhi, he was in the jail for 11 years.

18 · Harbeer

While I agree with you that people across cultures judge others by appearance and that fallen jhumki made a simple, somewhat offensive generalization, desi culture is one of those cultures where people's bodies are fair game for comment and conversation, like, the way that uncles and aunties have no compunction telling their nieces and nephews that they're too fat or too thin or really ought to do something about those pimples. I know that this is similarly acceptable in other cultures, too, but maybe it was this cultural tendency that fallen jhumki was impoliticly referring to?

Sorry Harbeer, but that wasn't exactly what i had in mind although what u said is also probably true (and i think you forgot to mention the fairness factor).

What i was talking about was talking about attraction between man and woman (peer AND/OR sexual attraction). maybe if i provide examples you will understand.

ex.1 why do i get hooted at and molested in India in RANDOM PUBLIC places. but here that kinda stuff only happens in a club where you should EXPECT it.

ex.2 when ever new to a place, men of other races open up to me and are really friendly. not all indian men are. esp. the good looking ones give you shady looks if you try to approach them.it seems to me that in their opinion woman are eye candy/cuddle toys and not good for striking a friendly convo.

ex. 3 so one night after a night out in a cute dress/outfit, i stopped by the gym to get stuff from my locker. this cute indian guy came and asked to carry my stuff to the car and started saying sweet/cheesy stuff but otherwise being very friendly. the NEXT NIGHT, i saw him again, this time in my gym shorts and a T-shirt probably kinda sweaty. i just smiled and he turned the otherway.

OH BTW, im sorry if anyone was offended by my previous comment. i was kinda generalizing. Maybe its just my unlucky experiences or where i live.

37 · fallen jhumki said

...NEXT NIGHT, i saw him again, this time in my gym shorts and a T-shirt probably kinda sweaty. i just smiled and he turned the otherway.

he was turned off by the sight of your not-so-flattering dark-skinned somewhat-chubby slightly-hairy thighs in those cute short gym shorts ?

Speaking of Pakistan, Biden wants to build up schools in that country. Wait, let's look at our school system in America. We can't get good schools in the U.S., and Biden wants to transplant that to Pakistan. It's more like madrassas (if Biden wants to see his wish come true).

Zardari is now single, and wants ass. I think that's the only reason he acted like that.

Remarks like these just shows anti PPP and anti Zaradari political circles are in full force. It's not a secret that so called enlighten and educated classes in Pakistan always voted for religious and/or regional parties so it is understandable if we are seeing all the hoopla over Zardari's behavior (which isn't inappropriate read Chachaji's comments). After all PPP always have been poor men's party and most of them have no links in media. As for women they think somehow Benazir Bhutto was manipulated by her husband assuming she wasn't a independent leader like every other women in the world ;).

38 · Sh. Arpasand said

he was turned off by the sight of your not-so-flattering dark-skinned somewhat-chubby slightly-hairy thighs in those cute short gym shorts ?

wtf im not hairy or fat. and the color of my skin is not lighter when im wearing a cute dress....but thats BESIDES the point. THE POINT IS i wasnt fishing for compliments or trying to score with him. i was just being cool/friendly. but apparently women are just sextoys/eye candy and otherwise not meant to be taken seriously. which is why the feminists are mad at zardari.

see u fit in perfectly with that category.

38 · Sh. Arpasand said

he was turned off by the sight of your not-so-flattering dark-skinned somewhat-chubby slightly-hairy thighs in those cute short gym shorts ?

Well, we're turned off by your wit-free, offensive comment. There are ways to disagree with someone or call them out without resorting to misogyny or cheap shots like "not-so-flattering dark skin". Take your self-loathing elsewhere.

fallen jhumki, I agree with your statements and assessment of brown men. Have you also noticed how polite and nice they are to white women? They reserve a special kind of arrogance when it comes to brown women, something that is endemic to a society that values boys over girls so much.

In my professional world especially, brown men--with higher degrees, etc.,--generally tend to dismiss me. It is often overt, but more often than not, in western context, subtle, but very much there. And when they realize that I know my stuff, then they get very insecure and start listing authors they have read or obscure theories or asking me if I have read this or that. It is very amusing and depressing at the same time. But when it comes to white women--especially ones that are somewhat youngish and somewhat attractive--their behavior is obsequious. They act like any moment they'd lay down on a puddle for the woman to walk over them.

I blame desi and ABD mothers predominantly. I think the increasing exogamy among ABDs is a large reflection of how fed-up desi women are getting with this entitled position men hold in our culture. Like Korean and Japanese women's rates, I won't be surprised if our exogamy rate skyrocket by the next generation or so.

Zardari's behavior is very familiar. It is typical disrespect shown to women--regardless how they look. And let's not get all U.S.-centric and make a big deal of this fatwa. Fatwas are very common, and nothing to make a big deal over. It is basically a denunciation of something. Rarely are they taken seriously outside of the neighborhood from which they were issued. Zardari has more to fear from the U.S. bombings inside Pakistan, and the resulting potential for a civil war.

I can`t help but have a laugh over some of the previous comments, it certainly seems levels of misandry are on the rise. Is Zardari a bit of an idiot? Yes, I'd wager you could say that. But why the sudden turn into desi male bashing, "OMG!!OMG!! he didn't look at me ... desi men are so arrogant". You know what, why the hell do you lot care? If its annoying, ignore it. It's his prerogative if the male in question decides not to look at you, or look at you funnily, or only talk to "teh WhiTE womenz". Go ahead and call him arrogant, but he doesn`t owe you a damn explanation for his thoughts or actions - ever (unless of course the action is illegal, but in that case I think an explanation is the least of his worries).

43 · Nesha: But when it comes to white women--especially ones that are somewhat youngish and somewhat attractive--their behavior is obsequious. They act like any moment they'd lay down on a puddle for the woman to walk over them.

I blame desi and ABD mothers predominantly. I think the increasing exogamy among ABDs is a large reflection of how fed-up desi women are getting with this entitled position men hold in our culture.

Everyone's experiences are unique and shape their worldview. Personally thanks to the way I was brought up, while I'am respectful towards all women, I make a special case to be more respectful towards Indian women.

Lets not make isolated personal experiences into actual social theory.

43 · Nesha said

Like Korean and Japanese women's rates, I won't be surprised if our exogamy rate skyrocket by the next generation or so.

It's already happening now. I would speak my mind right now, but the sepia mutiny police is going to silence me or delete my comments. It's like the fairness doctrine like the libs are trying to enact.

9 · Faiqa said

"It's not an election unless a fatwah is issued." LOL, but so true.

The Palin video was painful. I almost felt sorry for her. Almost. Still, just because she's inarticulate (that's diplomatic speak for stupid), doesn't make it OK for her to be disrespected.

I understand how this thing upset Pakistani feminists. A hug doesn't translate so easily into Pakistani culture. It means something different there than it does here.

It's socially (and, yes, religiously) unacceptable in Pakistan to hug members of the opp. sex who aren't related to you or to whom you aren't married. In Pakistan, a few years ago, I witnessed my 16 year old male ABD cousin trying to hug another cousin's wife at their first meeting. You should have seen the looks on everyone's faces. Loving and benign gesture from the American perspective, attempted rape from the Pakistani perspective. Not defending here, just explaining.

Perhaps, the point is best illustrated by the following analogy: Zardari asking Palin for a hug is like Bush asking to spank Gordon Brown. OMG, I just got the visual on that thought.

I also stand by the well known theory that Mr. Aziz actually meant that the one time he conquered a woman, he was done in two minutes. Give Uncle a break, English is tricky. (Did someone say that in a comment before? I don't feel the thrill of an original statement there?)

Boston_Mahesh wrote: I'm quite surprised that inter-gender hugs are frowned upon in Pakistan. I assumed that the Punjabis there were just like the Punjabis of India in that the Punjabis of India greet one another - even the opposite gender - with brotherly/sisterly hugs. I think that this is a beautiful practice, by the way. Hmmmmm....From what I've seen, I would think that not all Punjabi Pakistanis frown upon giving hugs to the opposite gender.