October 08, 2008
"You need to say Pack-i-Stan like Everyone Else"News
The LA Times has a rather silly piece, where they interview “body language” experts on yesterday’s Presidential debate. The highlight for me was this little bit about pronunciation:
But Glass, who thought the debate was a draw, said Obama seemed unnatural at times. “Somebody coached him and did not do him a favor,” she said. “When he talks about an issue he’s passionate about, his gestures are fluid and real, but other times, he took his index finger and clasped it to his thumb, and it’s phony, it’s not real.”
She also thought his inflection might be a turn-off to some voters. “He’d say, ‘Pahk-ee-stahn,’ or ‘Tolly-bahn.’ You need to say Pakistan and Taliban like everyone else.” (link)
Um, is it possible he pronounces it correctly because… it’s actually the correct pronunciation?
Some bloggers over at the National Review’s “The Corner” have picked up on this as well (thanks for the tip, Sree):
The National Review’s Mark Stein, for example, said that Obama prefers the “exotic pronunciation.” He added, “[O]ne thing I like about Sarah Palin is the way she says ‘Eye-raq’.”
This came after the National Review’s Kathryn Jean Lopez posted an email that argued, “[N]o one in flyover country says Pock-i-stahn. It’s annoying.” (link)
Actually, I know plenty of people in certain “flyover countries” — i.e., in the Indian subcontinent — who pronounce it exactly that way.
Welcome to the United States of Stupidistan, folks.
amardeep on October 8, 2008 07:54 PM in News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Obama saying Pakistan correctly is small potatoes. There are desi\\\'s themselves that insist on pronouncing their own names with the \\
Body language expert you say.
Hey expert lady, what does me extending my arm and holding up my middle finger say about my feelings towards you.
LOL--I'll give Obama points on this one!
Mispronounciation of country names is annoying... but what's really unacceptable is adamant mispronounciation of English! Is Palin's word "nuc-yoo-ler" something they teach on day 1 of Bush bootcamp; a sort of secret handshake that's required to get jumped into the Repubby frat? Or is Ms maverick barracuda scared to break with the big man & base on the key issue of pronounciation? Or is it just coincidental ignorance/accent?
How does the average Pakistani pronounce "America" ? Do we pronounce "Paris" like the French ? or "Moscow" like the it is said by Russians ? or "Rome" like the Italians ? I doubt it.
Obama saying Pakistan correctly is small potatoes. There are desi\\\'s themselves that insist on pronouncing their own names with a western tilt. Ajay becomes AY-jay Vinita becomes Vi-NEE-da. it should help this body language whitefying of everything lady to know that there are desis that insist on pronouncing their names wrong
5 · Vikram said
so.. you are saying that the leader of america should be judged by the standards of the average pakistani...
Obama shows his intelligence and sense of pride and respect for himself, and the world, when he pronounces country names properly. Sure, some people might pick up on his pronunciation and scratch their heads or even attack him for it, but I think most of the country is eager to listen to him, and maybe even emulate him. Maybe his pronunciation, and greater world view, will be noticed by everyday folks and he'll lift them up and make them better, even if only in a small way. I don't think liberals should play by the rules set by Nixon and Reagan; the right has too long dominated these etiquette issues (among other larger issues) and it's about time that a Democrat starts to shift the country leftward. Reagan especially galvanized the anti-abortion and pro-death penalty movements, along with giving legs and voices to Christian conservatives, for which we're still feeling the effects today in terms of general societal views. Teaching people how to pronounce Pakistan properly, however indirectly, is but one small gesture that I appreciate about Obama, as it makes people think more deeply. This is the first step to balancing the US' ideological divide that started in the 1960s, got cemented in the 1980s, and is hopefully starting to decay today.
CondeKedar: Best. Comment. Ever. Besides, every time Obama says Pakistan this Pakistani-American girl's heart skips a beat. ;)
I love it! I'm stupidistani!
No I'm saying that people normally pronounce names in the manner of their native accent and language. Italians say "Roma" for Rome & the French say "Paree" . Do native English speakers normally pronounce those names as the they are said by residents of those places ? I don't think we'll be hearing Obama following those conventions. So why this oddly contrived native pronunciation for Pakistan ? Hindi speakers usually say "Um-reek-ah" for America & "Roos" for Russia.
5 · Vikram said
Very good point. How is "pack-is-tan" any worse than saying Rome instead of "Roma"? Or Saying "Mecksico" instead of "Mehico"? I don't give a shit either way. If someone says Pack-is-tan, I don't care, maybe that's just how they pronounce it.
National Review's Ramesh Ponnuru apparently felt the same way... Ponnuru pointed to an essay by fellow National Review columnist Jay Nordlinger.
I thought Nordlinger had a few good points, namely
But this, to me, doesn't mean criticizing people for using the correct pronunciation - it just means that you shouldn't judge people based on their "incorrect" pronunciations. It's not that I assume Obama knows more about Pakistan just because he pronounces it closer to what it should be, but it does make me think that he's making more of an effort to come to an understanding. Which is more than it seems for people who show not only an unwillingness to make a change, but who also think it's pretentious to even bother.
Thanks, Rukku. I agree -- no one is looking down on people who say it in the "American" way out of (innocent) habit or ignorance.
11 · Vikram said
and anybody who dares to actually pronounce it the way the other folks do it is uppity and elitist, i agree. what next? pronouncing mascarpone with the -ay at the end? my friends, this slope is slippery and will only end with gay marriage, and i mean mer-aaj pronounced the french way.
Madonna's contrived English accent gets mocked despite having lived in London for quite a few years. Did Obama pick up a Pakistani accent on his 3 week visit to Pakistan almost 30 years ago ? I think he should stick with a consistent American accent. We don't expect the Indian Prime Minister to say "Noo Yawk" and do we ?
14 · Amardeep said
What about people who insist on pronouncing it eye-ran or eye-rack out of stubbornness and some contorted view of american exceptionalism? It reflects a basic lack of respect for the other peoples, in my view. And these are not, in the least, analogous to roma and mehico, which are remnants from an earlier time that are the common pronunciation throughout the english speaking world.
16 · Vikram said
I agree. Obama is such a phony for pronouncing Pakistan correctly. What a wannabe! Personally, I would prefer I was just called Cudaari, and anybody who does otherwise offends me!
It's allowable for non-native speakers of a language to pronounce words in the language with a different pronunciation, perhaps one more familiar to them. That said, to expect someone who is pronouncing it like a native to dumb it down and mispronounce it like everyone else is both provincial and regressive.
The internationalist/nationalist angle is yet another facet of polarization in this fight.
@18
Whatever dude. Dunno what your issue is. The Australian PM is a fluent Chinese speaker. Yet he says "China" with an Australian accent when speaking to English speakers, not "Chungkuo" as native Chinese refer to their country. Guess he's a phony and culturally insensitive.
Vikram,
The reason Madonna's accent gets mocked, IMO, is because most Americans have never lived in another country and don't know what it is to switch accents and pick up new ones. If you lived in other countries, esp. as a child, you are much more sensitive to these things. Obama (who has lived in Indonesia as a child and grew up in Hawai'i) pronouncing Pakistan right is an indication of both his worldliness and his willingness to learn and change the way he does things. Also, the short "a" is a sound that exists in American English, so it's not like he's pulling this foreign pronounciation out of nowhere.
20 · Vikram said
Is understanding logic and contrapositives anti-American too? Calling Obama a wierdo for pronouncing Pakistan correctly DOES NOT IMPLY calling Kevin Rudd a wierdo for NOT pronouncing China in the native accent. In fact, I don't see anybody in this thread calling John McCain out for pronouncing Pakistan as the natives do.
i meant... calling John McCain out for NOT pronouncing Pakistan as the natives do.
[Whatever dude. Dunno what your issue is. The Australian PM is a fluent Chinese speaker. Yet he says \\
the analogy to china seems kind of dumb to me. chungkuo is not an english word. we don't expect american presidents to refer to egypt as "misr" or say "moskova" instead of moscow. there are conventional english ways to say chungkuo and misr (in both cases mediated by western classical filters; i.e., the chin empire and the greek word for egypt). when it comes to pronouncing though that is totally different, and i think your mileage can vary. making a big deal out of it is kind of r-tarded though.
p.s. i refuse to say guatemala "correctly." no half-measures for me. but i don't begrudge the right of people to pronounce it correctly (like a native guatemalan) in conversation; i can understand what they're trying to say. it's like people from nevada correcting people from the east coast in how to pronounce the name of their state. not a serious issue. (though there are two ways to pronounce missouri in missouri conditional about regional origin, so there's not one "authentic" pronunciation sometimes).
Now if someone could suggest to Mr Obama that he's pronouncing "Punjab" like a Tamil and that "Poon-jab" sounds like a dirty word. (A jab in the poonj?)
I love it when Peggy Hill talks about "Meheeko." Pretense in coolots with a poof, what?
That said, I can see both Vikram's and nyookular's points.
My pet peeve is people who use "America" to refer to the US. It's a hemisphere, not the "Shining City at the Center of the Universe," folks. Guatemala is "America," too.
As for these morans at the NATIONAL REVIEW...as I said to my high school civics teacher (who, in retrospect, bore a striking resemblance to John McCain), "Must you flaunt your ignorance?"
Well, whatever, but this is more like if, say, n the next election, Sonia Gandhi said, "Uh-mer-icka" and some Kalarippayat interpretation expert in Coimabatore started giving her grief for not saying Umm-ree-kah. And then if there were a bunch of half- a--ed journalists who came along, claiming in print that nobody in the US says Uh-mer-icka, so there. Vikram, let me explain: Obama had a Pockistawny roommate at Columbia and he knows how to make dal. Didn't you know?
And another thing-- what I don't like about McCain's speech impediments is all these miyyuns and biyyuns he keeps carrying on about, never mind trayzhure and mayzhures. He would never be able to say Kyrgyistan and Minsk and Ulan Bator, let me tell you. So he would have to bomb all of them to spare himself all that trouble.
Not one single example cited by Vikram is analagous to Pakistan. As a television journalist, I have always pronounced Pakistan correctly on the air and it has enlightened, not stumped, my colleagues. Mispronouncing Pakistan despite its easy and arguably (let's not) phonetic spelling is an ethnocentric inclination often motivated by a disregard for the country's preference. Bush Sr. started calling Saddam "Sad-em" because he knew it needled his nemesis. He was cognizant of the correct pronunciation. I like that Obama says it the right way and all the other examples (Mehico, Paree..) are quite frankly, inane considering their spellings in English. Pakistan's spelling doesn't change whether you decide to say it correctly, or go the ethnocentric route.
27 · Mac said
Huh?
"Let's hope that he soon applies it all to correctly pronouncing Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. :)"
Well, Michelle says "Eye-raq," so maybe not.
a few years back a writer in Sports Illustrated took Greg Rusedski to task for pronouncing Adidas Ah-di das, rather than the Adee das favoured in the US. The writer said that Rusedski was pronouncing it in the strange European way. Someone did write in that Adidas is European!
Looks like having some world exposure is acquainting the same taint as being liberal, knowing French, etc
Does it help the ticket that Joe Biden pronounces "Pakistan/Afghanistan border" like it's right next door to Scranton?
I totally agree with the experts here. I love sticking it to the liberals, gays, and illegal immigrants that jointly control our media, schools, and local Taco Bells when I proudly and patriotically roll into the drive-thru to order my twelve "chicken fah-JYE-tas," only to have them "correct" me with some exotic pronunciation. When they stare blankly at me as I tell them "you need to say it like everyone else;" I'm forced to yell out God's plain truth as my H2 peels out of the parking lot:
This is America: speak American!
..the analogy to china seems kind of dumb to me....
please no personal attacks on anyone.
The bastardization of Ee-kay-yah into Eye-kee-yuh is as chalk squeaking on blackboard to my ears, and even worse the thought that they let their marketing people do that, though it shows there are rules to this game, matching with Eye-rack and all.
I sent the following email to Mark Stein:
What you call “ostentatiously exotic” I call correct. Are you trying to say that those of us with foreign-sounding names don’t deserve the respect of our fellow Americans actually trying to pronounce them correctly?
Or does the fact I’m a South Asian (despite being born and bred in the U.S.) exempt me from being American. I guess willful ignorance about the rest of the world is one of those conservative values you’re always trying so hard to protect.
It took me a while to switch from Gyros to Yeeros.
National review was started by William F. Buckley, who in spite of all his faults, wanted a magazine for conservative intellectuals.Now populism has taken root in this magazine. NR had George Will, David Brooks and Florence King as columnists. Now we have Ramesh Ponnuru (party of Death), Jonah Goldberg (Liberal Fascism) and KLo. They do not have a single new idea and have to capture people's imagination with their stupid titles.
Also,note that it is Mark Steyn not Mark Stein.
stupidistan indeeed... but stupidism sells and so the media earns. hollywood is pretty much the same - saw 300? :P
Hello People,
Madonna's accent gets mocked because she developed it BEFORE she even met Guy Ritchie and moved to England. My friend and I would mock it in high school which was a very very long time ago. She first developed the accent and then met Guy (GHEE) Ritchie and then moved to London. She's from Detroit and wouldn't that place be so much more appealing if we pronounced it Deh'twah like the French. I like that Obama says Pakistan correctly. It makes me feel, as a Pakistani, that I matter which is just so sad.
Gah. The conservative "thinkers" over at NRO are vile.
This is no "Ich bin ein Berliner" kind of expansive statement of solidarity with the Pakistani people, in the context of his pretty hard line statements about going into Pakistan and taking Bin Laden out. It is closer to his own "Lipstick on a pig" analogy.
Ok, everyone, back to Culdesacville.
Vikram
Nobody is saying that people can't pronounce the names of countries or cities in their own accent, or that there is nessecarily anything wrong with doing that. People are just asking, what kind of cretin gets an itchy ass just because someone pronounces something the correct way, and implies that it represents some kind of faintly traitorous slight on the bien pensants? All as one with the atmospherics of disloyalty, 'not one of us', dangerous woolf in black sheeps clothing that this whole spiel pukes out. Only racist scum like Mark Steyn, and other insidious right wing pricks who want to slowly slander Obama and any other man or woman with funny 'foreign' sounding names as doing, that they are all intrinsically anti-American. And their idiot squealings even get some brown people jumping through hoops like doggies at a parade to justify it all for them. They are sly little wankers to a man.
It's great that Obama pronounces Pakistan correctly.
But it's a real shame that he supports the continued violation of Pakistani airspace and territory, and may even step up aggressive foreign policy over there. I think that's the real issue. I'll take a watered down American "Pack-i-stan" if means a less militant foreign policy....
I'll make the same basic comment at I made at ultrabrown: first, I don't care how these two mediocres (the good Senators McCain and Obama) pronounce Pakistan or Taliban. It tells us nothing about governance and there is nothing wrong with using 'American' pronunciations for non-American words. I don't cringe when someone who is from India uses an Indian, or Hinglish, pronunciation for an American word. There is simply nothing wrong with that and I wouldn't dream of making fun of someone's pronunciation. That's kid's stuff.
Second, nucular is a regionalism, and, so what? New Yorkers and Bostonians sound funny to my upper midwest American ears and I don't assume they are stupid simply because they pronounce things differently, and seriously, no one from Boston ought ever to make fun of pronunciation.
Third, I remember a great SM article about Hinglish which I thought very charming. Indians have their own way of pronouncing and using English words, which I absolutely love, and Americans have their own way of pronouncing non-English words. I think there is nothing wrong with either.
*I sometimes think the only thread that holds together Sepia Mutiny is :my version of brown is good, middle class white American is bad. Oh, the dreadful bourgeois prononunciations! How embarrassing. How low class!
**Yes, I know the Corner at NRO is annoying. Even conservatives tend to agree these days. Calm down.
***The United States of Stupidstan? Seriously?
****Sen. Obama, the lightworker, pronounces Taliban in a very odd way, himself - Tollee-bahn. Is that really the correct pronunciation? Sounds Biden-esque to me.
I actually think it's nice to see a candidate try to pronounce something correctly. After all, it's not a huge stretch to pronounce either of those words correctly.
Btw, I know someone who is half-Italian and she resolutely says "Eye-Rack" but will be up in arms in an instant if someone pronounces Italian as "Eye-Talian." I guess most of us care about accuracy with respect to the things that are close to home, but aren't as picky about others. I think if it's relatively easy to say it right, they should at least try.
On a side note, with all this political talk, I am suprised that no one has mentioned Dishoom 2008. www.badmash.tv
MD,
try reading the SM post as well--it was even easier to read given the brevity. Amardeep took exception not to the trivialization of correct pronunciation of countries' names but the apparent need not to pronounce these names correctly, so as "to connect with voters." (as expressed by the corner) The latter thought is a crock of shit. Swing-state voters are most certainly not making their decisions based on who pronounces, "Pakistan," as they do (whichever way it may be.)
as to your 'thread' holding SM together it is also a crock full of fresh steaming kakki. Class bias in consumption is certainly present, as it is in many online communities, but can you claim to have never laughed at a 'trailer trash' joke or nodded knowingly at the same? Ever heard a single country album all the way through? Ever selected bottled water when you had the option of drinking from the tap? Sharpton has his day job, and you apparently, have yours. have fun teasing out the 'i hate whitey' in everything you see.
52 · SM Internist said
Understood. In the future I will make sure to reserve my unsubstantiated grand theories of endemic racism and contempt for the middle-class...for other blogs...that may actually deserve the charge.
Here come the cynics. Every 4 years they say something to the effect of I am only choosing the lesser of two evils. I disagree strongly. I have come to hate what Sen. McCain has become in this campaign but he was a fine Senator and Obama while less experienced seems like a well intentioned man with good education and an appetite to learn.
Senator McCain seems to have gotten a better understanding of the world from his congressional experience. His bellicosity and temper are troubling but he seems to have made the riht decision multiple times - immigration, justices and the nuclear option, McCain-Feingold, Trade with Vietnam.
Well after 8 years of the current occupants (evil, not curious, stubborn) I am fine with the current choices. To make this campaign better he has get rid of Rovian influences on McCain campaign i.e. Schmidt. I was a strong supporter of McCain and am hoping he loses so that we can get rid of the foul odor of the Rove administration.
I'm the only one allowed to fling poop around here!
So does the National Review prefer "Oriental" to "Asian," then?
We prefer the term slant-eye as we feel it is more descriptive. Please check our style guidelines for more information.
57 · National Review Offline said
I prefer gook myself.
56 · sebs said
I think so. They have, after all, thrown hissy fits at having to call Bombay "Mumbai" and Madras "Chennai."
MD,
I didn't know Alaska and Texas are in the same region.
IMO, ignorance of the pronunciation of this word in particular should equate with ignorance of the word origin (nucleus) and therefore the word's meaning (nuclear scientists exempt). And so what? I hope someone with access to our nuclear arsenal understands the full meaning of the responsibility... starting with the word itself.
BUT.. IAC.. my original point was more on the topic of the post... in contrast to Obama's "awkward" proper pronunciation, could the mispronunciation in this case be less of a regionalism and more of a deliberate attempt at conformity to incorrectness?
Second, nucular is a regionalism, and, so what?
Yes and that region is called idiocy.
It tells us nothing about governance and there is nothing wrong with using 'American' pronunciations for non-American words.
actually, Obama's pronunciation is actually not the correct urdu phonetic pronunciation. He says "Pakh-is-stan' not "Pakh-is-sthan", ie using the retroflex 't' and not the dental 'th', so what obama is doing is attempting to pronounce it "more correct" but still sticking to the American phoneme set.
It's in line with his general philosphy. lets show the world we dont think of them as stepping stones, and don't grab our crotches at them and say 'america, f** yeah'
No one is saying a pronunciation determines governance, but this particular one, and certain people's reactions to it determine a difference in philosophy.
errata, the american "t" is actually the alveolar, not the retroflex.
and, so what?
ask yourself, if Obama had gotten up there and said, "We have to aks ourselves, do we want to change America" , or "Why is president Bush trippin?" would those be washed away with "those are regionalisms"? If a standard is applied, it should be applied across the board.
64 · heromanyfaces said
ask yourself, if Obama had gotten up there and said, "We have to aks ourselves, do we want to change America" , or "Why is president Bush trippin?" would those be washed away with "those are regionalisms"? If a standard is applied, it should be applied across the board.
hmf is baaack.
I just always thought that Pack-is-tan and Pahk-is-tahn were both accepted pronunciations. I think every news channel pronounces it the Obama way (except maybe Fox News) and it grates on my nerves when they say Pack-is-tan ... it just sounds wrong to me.
At least Obama would be able to pronounce my name right, speaking of alternate pronunciations... ;)
As far as Taliban, the pronunciation I've heard most often on the news is tael - i - bahn (where ae as in apple, and i as in it) - not like Tollybahn. That sounds like a new expressway in Calcutt^H^H^H^H^H^H^Kolkata :)
None of you have yet answered my question, directly.
THANKS SM INTERN!I know you are trying to keep the thread civil and I appreciate it (but I guess if I'm going to dish it out I have to be able to take it, so it's all good).
Oh, and it's not cynicism, my slight dislike of both candidates. They seem good men and I may very well be wrong but what exactly have they done during their tenures? Baseball hearings and McCain Feingold and the Annenberg Foundation? We have a lot of problems in our country these days and we have to start asking more of our elected officials. Yes, I will vote and pray that the next President does a better job than the current President. I just think we have to hold their feet to the fire. We've let the Washington class get away with a mediocre effort for far too long.
49 · MD said
Tolly-bahn sounds odd, but not that far-off. The arabic "t" sound used to spell taalib (student) has a pull to it so taalib would sound more like tthaawlib (tthaawlibahn --> taalibahn --> tolly-bahn). Actually his pronunciation in this case doesn't sound anymore right than the more-common Tally-ban either.
That said, I'm not sure how it's pronounced by the actual Taliban. And I'd rather not google that word at work!
49 · MD said
Second, nucular is a regionalism, and, so what? New Yorkers and Bostonians sound funny to my upper midwest American ears and I don't assume they are stupid simply because they pronounce things differently, and seriously, no one from Boston ought ever to make fun of pronunciation.
Third, I remember a great SM article about Hinglish which I thought very charming. Indians have their own way of pronouncing and using English words, which I absolutely love, and Americans have their own way of pronouncing non-English words. I think there is nothing wrong with either.
*I sometimes think the only thread that holds together Sepia Mutiny is :my version of brown is good, middle class white American is bad. Oh, the dreadful bourgeois prononunciations! How embarrassing. How low class!
**Yes, I know the Corner at NRO is annoying. Even conservatives tend to agree these days. Calm down.
***The United States of Stupidstan? Seriously?
****Sen. Obama, the lightworker, pronounces Taliban in a very odd way, himself - Tollee-bahn. Is that really the correct pronunciation? Sounds Biden-esque to me.
I think most of what you're saying here is right on. I'm embarrassed of when I used to make fun of the way that my mother pronounced things, and I don't like it when other people tell me I pronounce things incorrectly (whether in English or other languages that are mine), and I think it's obnoxious and in this context, as you point out, frequently classist.
Comment 62-63 is right. Obama is not pronouning Pakistan the way a Pakistani would because English just doesn't have the right "t" sound. Most uniligual English-speakers couldn't pronounce "Bharat" either -- or "Bhai".
So Obama is mispronouncing Pakistan in a different way than McCain is mispronouncing Pakistan -- and in a way that is less common among Americans.
I love me some kay-suh-dillaz. Pass the whack-a-mole.
72 · Nayagan said
You don't say that out loud!
;)
None of you have yet answered my question, directly.
please re state it.