>>Events like this can have huge symbolic significance

All Government sponsored activity, anywhere, delivers nothing but symbolic significance. There's no material benefit to the taxpayer. It's legalized swindle.

M. Nam

MoorNam says, typing on his computer and sending out packets on the intertubes.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that the name of the rocket is awesome. The Chandrayaan! That is a pretty great name.

The wikipedia article has some more details about the mission goals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan

Events like this can have huge symbolic significance

"One could argue — and I’m sure some will — that it’s hard to justify spending lots of money on a mission to the moon, when India obviously has lots of other issues to contend with right now."

That's a valid point. There's people who need food and land that needs water. Though, if you notice they are carrying cargo for NASA. If this goes well India would be a player in the space industry and can carry cargoes for other nations as well-- in return of money or other technological gifts. A well established industry like this can also create a good number of jobs and boost up education.

I think it's a great step. And I hope they don't screw up all the required things they have to do the days after.

a better headline would have been - india unleashes the python

I was toying with various "moon" related Hindi songs for titles to the post (chand, chandni, etc.), but couldn't think of anything good. Got any for me?

The best I could come up with was the Adnan Sami song:

"Bheegi Bheegi Raaton Mein" -->
"Bheegi Bheegi Rocket Mein" -->

"Biggie Biggie Rocket Mein"

But I think only about 5 readers would have any idea what I was talking about.

I’m not sure what they would do with these materials even if they were to find some

just kidding. i have a friend who told me that a legitimate trickle down from one of the space research organizations was an ozonization technology that made purified water available to many. i dont know how sustainable it was - but the will is there. So good going. we'z proud of ye.

i address aren't-there-better-things-to-spend-money-on argument here. i think it is a more powerful argument for such a poor country like india, but that being said don't the rich in india still flaunt their wealth? so much "waste," at least this appeals to something else besides *personal* vanity (that is, *public* vanity).

Why are this mission and the other issues India is facing mutually exclusive? We should give credit where it is due without being overly critical.

Strangely enough, Amardeep, this gora gets it.
Because it is one of my favorite songs!

though, if india doesn't face up to its bottom line problems with mass malnutrition an illiteracy this "race" with china is over before it began. you can't compete indefinitely when you have fewer hands on deck when it comes to something this complex. perhaps abject failure at the space race might reinforce the need for basic education and literacy.

(Innocently) Large phallic objects have symbolic significance?

One could argue — and I’m sure some will — that it’s hard to justify spending lots of money on a mission to the moon

If everyone agreed to stop anything that seemed "hard to justify" at the outset, it seems to me that the world in its entirety would still be living in the middle ages.

The best I could come up with was the Adnan Sami song:

oh Adnan!! I've become a fan once UB introduced me to lift kara dey . I think that would be apt here, no? 'thodi see tu lift kara dey. dunia bhar kee sair kara dey'.

I was reading up on it. the commercial arm of ISRO makes close to $200mill and a successful launch will only boost its profile as a low-cost alternative to Ariane. This is a pretty sound R&D investment imo. with the limited market competition the ROI would be quick.

Why are this mission and the other issues India is facing mutually exclusive? We should give credit where it is due without being overly critical.

I don't know. Is this necessary in a country that needs to invest so much more on children's health and primary education? Couldn't/Shouldn't the money go toward those massive issues?

I felt the same way about China and it's Olympics; I didn't find much to praise China about that. India, with the second largest population in the world has the highest number of malnourished children but I believe China is next right after India for 2nd largest population of malnourished children (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I didn't think it was worth a country that has the poverty issues as China to put so much money on it's elite athletes.

I guess a mission to the moon, is different than spending money on athletes. But I still think that the money should go toward the massive problems India has meeting the basic necessities that are not met for millions of people.

How do you know there is money not being spent on other issues? Like I said they are not mutually exclusive and if you recall the govt just provided INR $25,000 crore as the first installment under the farm loan waiver scheme. Work is being done and one doesn't have to stop because of the other.

I meant INR not $25,000 crore

What about "chalo diladaar chalo, chaa.Nd ke paar chalo"?

ISRO chairman on the common criticism of the mission:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081027&fname=ISRO&sid=2

How do you handle criticism from a section of the people that a poor nation like India shouldn't be wasting money on projects like Chandrayaan?

We have faced this question in the early phase of the programme. We are convinced that we are doing more service to the society than the money spent on the programme. But to doubly assure ourselves, we asked a school of economics in Chennai a couple of years back to make an assessment. The report they submitted was really mind-boggling. They found that what we have given back to the society in terms of products and services is something like one and half times more than the cumulative investment made on the entire space programme. Leave alone the infrastructure, the technology, the human resources and the various laboratories we have developed, if we add all that it is certainly more than five times spent on the programme.

theres a good newsweek article out which describes some of what the indian space program has given back to india (as described by the ISRO director above):

http://www.newsweek.com/id/164599

highlights:

*After introducing a satellite service to locate potential fish zones and broadcasting the sites over All India Radio, ISRO helped coastal fishermen double the size of their catch.

*For the government's Rajiv Gandhi National Drinking Water Mission, begun in 1986, satellites have improved the success rate of government well-drilling projects by 50 to 80 percent, saving $100 million to $175 million.

*Meteorological satellites have improved the government's ability to predict the all-important Indian monsoon, which can influence India's gross domestic product by 2 to 5 percent.

*ISRO's remote-sensing data will also help village councils develop watersheds and irrigation projects, establish accurate land records and plan new roads connecting their villages with civilization as cheaply and efficiently as possible.

*One ISRO partner -the M.S. Swaminathan Research Foundation-has used satellites to conduct 78,000 training programs for more than 300,000 farmers in 550 villages, teaching them about farming practices like drip-and-sprinkle irrigation, health-care awareness programs for diseases like malaria and tuberculosis, and information about how to access government services.

I doubt this mission's sole purpose is to visit the moon. I am sure onboard are several technologies that are actually part of the missile program. I once worked for a researcher connected to India's rocket program. His comment was - "no, we don't spend all this money on propulsion technology to put satellites up that look at crops and clouds".

I dont understand space. Motherfuc#ers walked on the moon like 100 years ago and it seems like there has been a steady decline in space awesomeness since then. Now they want us to get our panties in a bunch when they announce things like "NASA to launch mission to see if comfortable blankets on earth are just as comfortable in space". It's the steady stream of lameness from NASA that makes me think that space walk was BS.

Is this necessary in a country that needs to invest so much more on children's health and primary education? Couldn't/Shouldn't the money go toward those massive issues?

Do you have to enroll Abhijit in football camp? Desis don't do well in football, leave it for the goraas and kaalas. We have Abhijit's college expenses to worry about. You should put the money into his college fund.

brown #20:

Nobody is contesting that going into space is a good thing. It has its mayriad benefits, but they all come at a cost. It's common knowledge that Governments everywhere waste 90% of the money spent on anything.

>>After introducing a satellite...ISRO helped coastal fishermen double the size of their catch

Is there a study comparing how much was spent vs the amount gained by the increase in catch? Moreover, should 99% of the population, who are not fishermen, subsidize the fishing industry at the cost of everyone? What's the vegetarian getting out of this?

>>One ISRO partner -the M.S. Swaminathan Research Foundation-has used satellites to conduct 78,000 training programs for more than 300,000 farmers in 550 villages

Did the Foundation pay for the cost of the launch? If so, I don't have any problem with it.

M. Nam

The Indian space program was started with a remote sensing focus, and it is still one of its largest applications, and it directly benefits the rural poor. There are whispers that the remote sensing tech also helps in controlling infiltration in Kashmir.

The missile development angle, the satellite launch angle and the space race angle came later. The first two also directly benefit lay people -- the missile angle helps contain Pakistan and China, the satellite launch business earns valuable foreign exchange, which buys oil. The space race angle is expected to generate new technologies, as in the case of NASA.

There are also numerous "ecosystem effects" of the space program, including the rise of Bangalore as a tech center, work on solar panels, the fledgling aerospace ambitions etc.

The space program is one of the best investments India has ever made. See where it started, and how far it has come. The first picture shows Abdul Kalam.

>>The Indian space program was started with a remote sensing focus...helps in controlling infiltration in Kashmir....missile development angle

Now you're talking! I agree that from a military standpoint, it's a huge benefit (the costs are worth it).

However, this moon mission on the other hand...

M. Nam

>It's common knowledge that Governments everywhere waste 90% of the money spent on anything.

90% of all research projects don't lead to applications, so you could argue that university research should be stopped. 90% of people who train in classical music don't take up a singing career, so you could argue that all that learning of singing is a waste. 90% of time spend online is on trivial pursuits like this, so you could argue....

It all depends on what you mean by waste. The money does benefit a lot of people, maybe it doesn't provide the benefit in a high-profile and focused fashion, as in "company X invested money for R&D, developed Fancy Drug Y, saved Z million people" types. Such direct effects don't always happen in research, even when it happens, it is a story that hides a lot of "waste".

They should wait for Diwali next Wednesday--it will be like one big firecracker. Besides, in cultures that follow the lunar cycles, new moons are seen as a good time to launch new important ventures.

One could argue — and I’m sure some will — that it’s hard to justify spending lots of money on a mission to the moon, when India obviously has lots of other issues to contend with right now.

You know, I've never been able to make sense of that argument. "You're starving and malnourished, therefore you don't deserve broadband!"

It's always struck me as old-school colonial-style condescension in a new bottle.

6 · Amardeep said

I was toying with various "moon" related Hindi songs for titles to the post (chand, chandni, etc.), but couldn't think of anything good. Got any for me?

Dude! I was trying to figure out a way to work some Sinatra into the discussion when I remembered this dope song from PAKEEZAH.

18 · Vinay said

What about "chalo diladaar chalo, chaa.Nd ke paar chalo"?

Doh! I see that Vinay beat me to it.

I dont understand space. Motherfuc#ers walked on the moon like 100 years ago and it seems like there has been a steady decline in space awesomeness since then. Now they want us to get our panties in a bunch when they announce things like "NASA to launch mission to see if comfortable blankets on earth are just as comfortable in space". It's the steady stream of lameness from NASA that makes me think that space walk was BS.

not true. there are several reasons why space is important. I will give you the canadian perspective even though we piggyback on nasa.


a. the canadarm technology is useful in deep sea exploration and preparing marine vessels.

b. though the space station is not in polar orbit, the field of view is wide enough to test satellite communicaitons for our northern frontiers.

c. multispectral remote sensing is an offshoot of the old hasselblad cameras that were first used on the lunar mission. without testing these new technologies in such fashion, we wont be able to ascertain the best way to monitor our northern shores and keep it out of the clutches of the dastardly americans, the nefarious danes and the ghastly russians.

d. it helps relieve tumescence. seriously. i dont know about women - but i think guys like exploration for the heck of it. it's like wanking. only better.

Dude! I was trying to figure out a way to work some Sinatra into the discussion when I remembered this dope song from PAKEEZAH.

Oh that was great - beautiful music. Wish I could understand hindi to get all the nuances, but it's beautiful even w/o understanding.

You know, I've never been able to make sense of that argument. "You're starving and malnourished, therefore you don't deserve broadband!"

No I'm not saying that. And I am just questioning Indian govt's committment to this venture - I'm not saying emphatically it is wrong.

The broadband comparison I don't think works here, b/c broadband can directly help, particularly in education and economically, a country's people. I'm just questioning whether the long-term money and other committments that are needed for this venture is worth it, when the direct benefits to the Indian population are not clear.

>it helps relieve tumescence. seriously. i dont know about women - but i think guys like exploration for the heck of it. it's like wanking. only better.

Ah, that's why men keeps exploring women.

What need do we Indians have of spacecraft? A person with mystic perfection can extend his hand and touch the moon with his finger.

#25, MoorNam

One this is succesful, India will construct a missile base on the moon and wipe of all its enemies, while claiming plausible deniability (the aliens on the Moon did it).

Does anybody else think that "Chandrayaan" is a pretty gay-ass name? Wish there was a macho-er name. After all the rocket is phallic.

India Heading to the Moon

Cool. Maybe the Indian elite, the Pakistani elite, and the Chinese elite can all go together and we can force them to stay there until they come back with some good ideas rather than an arms race.

They should wait for Diwali next Wednesday--it will be like one big firecracker. Besides, in cultures that follow the lunar cycles, new moons are seen as a good time to launch new important ventures.

But no, wait, na, it might lose its way in the dark.

35 · Rohan said

A person with mystic perfection can extend his hand and touch the moon with his finger.

Nice finger.

36 · MasterOfBlondi said

Does anybody else think that "Chandrayaan" is a pretty gay-ass name? Wish there was a macho-er name. After all the rocket is phallic.

Chandralingam?

5 · Xetra said

There's people who need food

Hello...isn't the moon made of cheese? Clearly this is a harvesting mission. Jai Hind!

It will help eliminate the two stages of producing deuterium from hydrogen and then producing helium-3 from deuterium

There are major plans by many nations for mining the moon. As regarding the Helium-3 there are a lot of skeptics about its utility (see below). The moon mission for most nations may be just advanced technology demonstrators, to reinvigorate the space program/industry and keep the pipeline of scientists/engineers flowing since many would be retiring in the decade or so.
Here is an intersting article on India's soaring ambitions.

Helium errors

Let me now turn to the helium-3 factoid. At most fusion experiments, such as the Joint European Torus (JET) in the UK, a fuel of deuterium and tritium nuclei is converted in a tokomak into helium-4 and a neutron, thereby releasing energy in the process. No helium-3 is involved, so where does the myth come from? Enter "helium-3 fusion" into Google and you will find numerous websites pointing out that the neutron produced in deuterium–tritium fusion makes the walls of the tokomak radioactive, but that fusion could be "clean" if only we reacted deuterium with helium-3 to produce helium-4 and a proton. Given that the amount of helium-3 available on Earth is trifling, it has been proposed that we should go to the Moon to mine the isotope, which is produced in the Sun and might be blown onto the lunar surface via the solar wind. Apart from not even knowing for certain if there is any helium-3 on the Moon, there are two main problems with this idea – one obvious and one intriguingly subtle. The first problem is that, in a tokomak, deuterium reacts up to 100 times more slowly with helium-3 than it does with tritium. This is because fusion has to overcome the electrical repulsion between the protons in the fuel, which is much higher for deuterium– helium-3 reactions (the nuclei have one and two protons, respectively) than it is for deuterium– tritium reactions (one proton each). Clearly, deuterium–helium-3 is a poor fusion process, but the irony is much greater as I shall now reveal. A tokomak is not like a particle accelerator where counter-rotating beams of deuterium and helium-3 collide and fuse. Instead, all of the nuclei in the fuel mingle together, which means that two deuterium nuclei can rapidly fuse to give a tritium nucleus and proton. The tritium can now fuse with the deuterium – again much faster than the deuterium can with helium-3 – to yield helium-4 and a neutron. So by bringing helium-3 from the Moon, all we will end up doing is create a deuterium– tritium fusion machine, which is the very thing the helium aficionados wanted to avoid! Undeterred, some of these people even suggest that two helium-3 nuclei could be made to fuse with each other to produce deuterium, an alpha particle and energy. Unfortunately, this reaction occurs even more slowly than deuterium–tritium fusion and the fuel would have to be heated to impractically high temperatures that would be beyond the reach of a tokomak. And as not even the upcoming International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) will be able to generate electricity from the latter reaction, the lunar-helium-3 story like the LHC as an Armageddon machine – is, to my mind, moonshine

6 · Amardeep said

I was toying with various "moon" related Hindi songs for titles to the post (chand, chandni, etc.), but couldn't think of anything good. Got any for me?

Chaudvin Ka Chand ho ?

I was watching the launch with more trepidation than Sachin Tendulkar batting on 99. The launch was success!

Prime Minister Vajpayee's government who set the wheels in motion for this ambitious goal. This is the culmination of the vision of leaders of ISRO and the BJP leadership. India needs a visionary like Vajpayee again.

Lets get a sense of proportion here. This mission's budget is like 90 million USD.. That's like ten times smaller than Ambani's house in Mumbai. I fail to see why a mission that costs less than a Jumbo jet should be so criticized.

For information on the payloads, see here.
http://www.isro.org/chandrayaan/htmls/psexperiments.htm

The main scientific objective is to perform a chemical and geological mapping of the moon. It's akin to the study of earth's geology and will be important to our understanding of moon's evolutionary history. Also, it's not just Helium-3, but several other elements that will be analyzed for. Then, there is the experiment to see if the lunar poles have water ice. The other important aspects involve communications, data transmission, etc.

More than a publicity stunt, I think it is a much needed boost to India's S&T.

No I'm not saying that. And I am just questioning Indian govt's committment to this venture - I'm not saying emphatically it is wrong.

Wasn't implying that it was you that was making that argument. The broadband thing was some years ago on a discussion on either Reddit or Slashdot about Indian broadband, and it was one of the earliest responses on the thread. It smacked of "The third-world country's place is in the agricultural sector", like how it used to be said "The woman's place is in the kitchen".

As for spaceflight, it's often a useful engineering and technological testbed even if no new scientific knowledge comes out of it. For instance, it's a good demonstration of engines, guidance systems, telemetry, cameras and informatics interfaces, all of which can be used in both civilian and military applications. In that sense, Apollo's contribution to science was not much, but it was hugely important for engineering and technology, including development of early fuel cells and food preservation technology.

In a more diffuse context, it's often good on general principles to give money to smart people and let them play with it. When a bunch of physicists found it hard in the late 1980s and early 1990s to share information about their experimental results, one of them developed what would become the WWW to get around the difficulty. Had the WWW been designed top down by committee, it would never have taken off. Those ancillary benefits are relatively infrequent, and cannot be foretold with precision, but often have huge impact.

Researching some more I believe that Vajpayee just announced this mission in a speech on India's 56 Independence day. It is not listed as one of his achievements in office. So apparently the Indian PM's office is not directing this type of program in the same way JFK announced the man on the moon mission for NASA.

Congrats to the ISRO for a successful launch. It takes 15 days to reach the moon. Lets hope they learn everything they want to learn about moon.

This year has been special for 2 reasons regarding space research. One for Arizona's spear heading mission (PHOENIX) to MARS, which I hold as my alma-mater even though I only did my masters there and ISRO's mission to moon.

Congrats geeks, you all rock.

come on, its one of the best things india has done recently. our prowess in this field needs to be shown to the world. and it is not just a show off, its the result of tremendous research which we are proud of and will benefit us in many ways. research always pays off, maybe in the long run, but u get much more out of it than you spend. and $80 million is not that much, this guy ambani's house is for 2 billion, so this would be money well spent, not like spending on some bogus village development project which dont even work

research always pays off, maybe in the long run, but u get much more out of it than you spend.

LOL--overstate, much? always? really? Let's wait and see. I hope it does pay off (and it may well do so!), but to have such a messianic faith in it is, uhh--ill-considered.

frankly, this isn't thaat much money, even for India ($78 million, not counting sunk+peripheral costs of the program presumably), and such unmanned missions are good PR to get more commercial clients -- a reasonably good business to be in. a manned mission however is a different issue with much higher module costs, and lower scientific payoff.

also, this is replicating stuff that was done in the early 60s from a spaceflight pov, but science-wise could be useful though it's science missions seems to have some overlap with NASA's lunar prospector mission that was launched in 1998.

the big concern with this is not such missions, but whether this (and china's launches) are all a prelude to a period of rapid space weaponization. The US has certainly not been helping in this regard, and a space weapons race, in addition to being a gigantic waste of money, would bring new strategic and military risks to everyone involved.

I've never been able to make sense of that argument. "You're starving and malnourished, therefore you don't deserve broadband!" It's always struck me as old-school colonial-style condescension in a new bottle.

So it is colonial condescension to point out that its inexcusable for a nation to give such low priority to feeding its citizens, to abandon a huge chunk of its citizens to starvation?

All Government sponsored activity, anywhere, delivers nothing but symbolic significance. There's no material benefit to the taxpayer. It's legalized swindle. M. Nam

You would think that the libertarian lunatic fringe would slither off and hide under a rock after what has happened.

this is great, one step closer to the bollywood starwars!

39, Harbeer:

Chandralingam is pretty cool.

Just as, in the planning stages itself, the Beijing olympics were seen as key to showcasing a China you could do business with, these status exercises are necessary for any nation that wants others to perceive it in a certain way. This change in perception of what India is--the land of abject poverty-- will translate at so many levels to better economic opportunities. It won't be a trickle down, it will be a gush. We have seen how in the last 10 years India has been transformed. This chandrayaan is a strategic move to keep the momentum going. Yes poor Indians will get some too. Traveling the villages of Tamilnadu last year, I heard many tales of the prodigal son--the one who took up computers and now thinks he is too good for his laborer folks. And I also met the ingrates, the IT worker, the accountant, the small businessman, and marveled at the mobility of this underclass. Yes, Tamilnadu is not Bihar but this is also an Indian story, one that is not often told. There is mobility in India. Most of us here are a generation or two or three removed from a poor village. Yeah, but back to the chandra udaan, wow!

78 mil is dirt cheap. its the cost of 3 bollywood films. vipul's upcoming london dreams is 25 mil, srk's next is 30, rajini's robot is not far behind either.

Chandrayaan carries a lot of payload from EU countries and the US.
Earlier earth-orbit missions have carried such payloads too (sometimes, paid for by those countries)

Anyone know what the payload of the Chinese missions was?
Are we the only ones profiting (monetarily and in goodwill) by these missions?

59 · suede said

Chandrayaan carries a lot of payload from EU countries and the US.
Earlier earth-orbit missions have carried such payloads too (sometimes, paid for by those countries)

Beta, are you surprised that taxi-service to the moon is largely an Indian enterprise ?

India has also been launching satellites for quite a few countries if I remember correctly and I think it is quite a lucrative "taxi service" too. It is cheaper for smaller countries which do not have set up and the geographic requirements to outsource the launch work.

45 · sn said

Lets get a sense of proportion here. This mission's budget is like 90 million USD.. That's like ten times smaller than Ambani's house in Mumbai. I fail to see why a mission that costs less than a Jumbo jet should be so criticized.

What? Logic? Here? Outrageous...

Big ups for India, and big ups for Razib. It wasn't too long ago when this pauper was going around the internet talking about people's skull shapes. You've come a long way Razzy boy.

78 mil is dirt cheap. its the cost of 3 bollywood films. vipul's upcoming london dreams is 25 mil, srk's next is 30, rajini's robot is not far behind either.

This is the right comparison. I don't think this space research is wasting so much money. If the government wants to reduce spending, they could get rid of the colonial practice of having twenty servants to serve every minister, IAS officer and other middle level officers. Force them to make their own coffee.

Throw open all the colonial era buildings like Raj Bhavan, Rashtrapathi Bhavan etc. to public as museums and charge money and add it to the government coffers.

As for spaceflight, it's often a useful engineering and technological testbed even if no new scientific knowledge comes out of it. For instance, it's a good demonstration of engines, guidance systems, telemetry, cameras and informatics interfaces, all of which can be used in both civilian and military applications. In that sense, Apollo's contribution to science was not much, but it was hugely important for engineering and technology, including development of early fuel cells and food preservation technology.

In a more diffuse context, it's often good on general principles to give money to smart people and let them play with it. When a bunch of physicists found it hard in the late 1980s and early 1990s to share information about their experimental results, one of them developed what would become the WWW to get around the difficulty. Had the WWW been designed top down by committee, it would never have taken off. Those ancillary benefits are relatively infrequent, and cannot be foretold with precision, but often have huge impact.

All good points Pingpong, as well as what others are saying about the amount. I have read that India has the ability to meet its population's nutrition needs - maybe the money is not being spent wisely on that end and it has less to do with the amount of money that's being spent.

65 · PS said

When a bunch of physicists found it hard in the late 1980s and early 1990s to share information about their experimental results, one of them developed what would become the WWW to get around the difficulty. Had the WWW been designed top down by committee, it would never have taken off.

Of course, like most 'founding myths', this is more false than true. Tim Berners-Lee invented an early version of hypertext transfer protocol (HTTP) for CERN, but the WWW we know today was in fact designed by committee. The main committee-like group being called ICANN - Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers! OK, it was a joint multi-stakeholder consultative project committee! And Al Gore, with his 'breakfast group committee' in the 1990s had something to do with it, too. That's probably why it took off. In fact, had it been just upto the physicists at CERN, it would likely have stayed a curiosity-plaything, occasionally pulled out to wow the visiting journalist, if that. There was in fact fierce, elitist opposition to the 'commercialization of the internet' amongst academic physicist-engineer types in the early 1990s, when the first user-friendly interfaces for email started coming out.

So by all means let's mythologize, but let's de-mythologize too.

Of course, pingpong actually said what I was quoting above, not PS.

Who would you pick as India's first lunar cosmonaut in a Bollywood movie? I think a big budget blowout super hit would egg the project on.

Dr Amonymous on October 21, 2008 05:59 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

India Heading to the Moon

Cool. Maybe the Indian elite, the Pakistani elite, and the Chinese elite can all go together and we can force them to stay there until they come back with some good ideas rather than an arms race.

On the other hand Sending all the elites to the moon may not be a good idea

I've argued for spend on the mission on my blog as well. I am claiming that the mission will serve lots of purposes. People argue about this even with the large hadron collider. Science does not always have very straightforward aims. Sometimes you see the effect of finding penicillin while growing some random culture. Going outside your comfort zone increases the chances of learning something new. Getting Rumsfeldian, sometimes we have to venture forth to find the unknown unknowns.

Of course, like most 'founding myths', this is more false than true. Tim Berners-Lee invented an early version of hypertext transfer protocol (HTTP) for CERN,

Chachaji, any idea who invented the internet? The French claim that it is they--that is what French school children are taught. And I always thought it was at UCLA, a few floors below my old office in the Math/Science building. There is no arguing with the French on anything. And content on the internet is mostly American. I once wrote back to a journalist who had written about this. But his reply was even more garbled than the original article. So who do I believe and what do I belive? Anyone know?

Ok here's a synopsis of the Le Monde article. The French guy was Pouzin. Kleinrock's messages were sent before that.

71 · my_dog_jagat said

Chachaji, any idea who invented the internet?

Me. Seriously, though, it depends on what you mean by "the internet".

Kleinrock at UCLA is credit with the original form of packet switching (as opposed to circuit switching, which was the then prevalent form, and is used in telephone networks), and UCLA was one of the first nodes in the Arpanet. Packet switching trades off guaranteed quality with the assumption that it can take advantage of natural variations in the rates of individual connections, and thereby provide a certain network capacity with far less provisioning than telecom networks. Pouzin was responsible for the "French ARPANET", where he is credited with the notion of using unreliable packets (called datagrams) - which wasn't new, he had seen the idea at UCLA, but he further developed some notions of reliable transport etc. However, Pouzin's work was killed by French telecom industries who believed in a circuit switched world, and instead proposed the alternative standard X.25, which as history has shown, proved a resounding failure (although some of the ideas from there, and from circuit switching, were used in the mid 90s to develop the ATM network link technology which is used for several underlying high throughput cables, say trans atlantic cables, in the Internet).

Cerf and Kahn are credited with the now extant and successful notion of IP as an overarching - maybe I should say underarching - protocol that all participating networks are expected to support. This has enabled the great explosion in the size of the Internet - new networks can seamlessly add on to it, as long as they support IP. This is in contrast to a world where each network would support its own protocol. in which case addition to the Internet would require cumbersome translations between protocols. Further, they worked on the addressing schemes to actually address sources and destinations on the Internet, the mechanisms to route traffic between nodes, as well as the ability to ensure reliable data transport using unreliable IP datagrams.

(This alone is not enough. The original mechanisms caused the network to collapse when too many people joined it. In fact, this happened in the mid 80s, which is when Van Jacobson introduced the congestion control protocol that is now the heart of TCP, and which ensures that uncoordinated senders which do not know the details of the routes their packets are taking, the capacities of the different links, and the number and rate of connections they are sharing each of these links with, can still converge on the rate of traffic they should send at which will not overwhelm the network.)

As for HTTP and linking which enabled the Web, Tim Berners Lee is indeed credited with that. Why is the Web mostly dominated by American content? Actually, you do have to think the much maligned and misrepresented me to thank for that, at least to some extent. It was the Al Gore committee in the mid 90s that was responsible for providing the right incentives and conditions to create the broadband explosion, as well as the platform of universal access with network neutrality, crucial to the wide reach and current success of the internet.

1 · MoorNam said

All Government sponsored activity, anywhere, delivers nothing but symbolic significance. There's no material benefit to the taxpayer. It's legalized swindle.

Yeah - like the Interstate Highway system, NIH, NSF, NASA, Social Security, FDA and so on...

Seriously, though, it depends on what you mean by "the internet".

Obviously, internet was not "invented" by any single person or organization. It was just a natural consequence of the way things were developing. An infinite number of epsilon contributions from so many people are involved in this. Among those epsilons, some have a relatively higher contribution than the others, but in the big picture, even the biggest epsilon is a minor part of the whole story.

guys read this article. this is spot on scientific writing about the moon landing.

http://www.hayibo.com/articles/view/891

Throw open all the colonial era buildings like Raj Bhavan, Rashtrapathi Bhavan etc. to public as museums and charge money and add it to the government coffers.

Those buildings are still being used as active gov't. offices!

>>Those buildings are still being used as active gov't. offices!

Mummify the folks working there in their work positions - they'll be an added attraction to the museum.

M. Nam

To the moon, Laxmi. Straight to the moon!

M. Nam

Those buildings are still being used as active gov't. offices!

No, those buildings are used as residences for Governors, Presidents etc. who are basically retired politicians or their bureaucrat sidekicks. They lead luxurious lives in a sprawling estate with thousands of folks employed just to look after them.

Atleast active politicians need to meet people, act like they are solving problems. The Governors do no such thing.

>>Governors, Presidents etc. who are basically retired politicians or their bureaucrat sidekicks. They lead luxurious lives in a sprawling estate with thousands of folks employed just to look after them.

All except one...

M. Nam

Ponniyan 80:

No, those buildings are used as residences for Governors, Presidents etc. who are basically retired politicians or their bureaucrat sidekicks.

No, those buildings are used as residences for Governors, Presidents, etc... their large extended families(LEF) and friends of these large extended families (FLEF). These "buildings" as you put it come equipped with independant guest wings--quite like Versailles-- where all manner of politicians, IAS officialdom etc... and their LEF and FLEF can stay. Although it is a very luxurious lifestyle, it is also, as you can see, quite inclusive. Why, I myself have stayed in a number of these places.

No, those buildings are used as residences for Governors, Presidents, etc... their large extended families(LEF) and friends of these large extended families (FLEF). These "buildings" as you put it come equipped with independant guest wings--quite like Versailles-- where all manner of politicians, IAS officialdom etc... and their LEF and FLEF can stay. Although it is a very luxurious lifestyle, it is also, as you can see, quite inclusive. Why, I myself have stayed in a number of these places.

lucky you..

That's true.. I went inside the Raj Bhavan (Chennai) when I was a kid on a school excursion trip (One of the kids' father worked there and got some permission, I think). The sofa set there could have accomodated the tiny apartment that we lived in at that time. These guys have too much fun doing practically nothing.

As an aerospace engineering major, I'm really proud. To the haters, when you realize the amount of work that goes into even figuring out how to get a rocket into space, let alone to the moon and back, and then ACTUALLY DOING IT, you'll realize that talking smack about this is stupid.

And to the Canadian, thanks:

31 · khoofia said

not true. there are several reasons why space is important. I will give you the canadian perspective even though we piggyback on nasa.

a. the canadarm technology is useful in deep sea exploration and preparing marine vessels.
b. though the space station is not in polar orbit, the field of view is wide enough to test satellite communicaitons for our northern frontiers.
c. multispectral remote sensing is an offshoot of the old hasselblad cameras that were first used on the lunar mission. without testing these new technologies in such fashion, we wont be able to ascertain the best way to monitor our northern shores and keep it out of the clutches of the dastardly americans, the nefarious danes and the ghastly russians.
d. it helps relieve tumescence. seriously. i dont know about women - but i think guys like exploration for the heck of it. it's like wanking. only better.

-Space hockey...the final frontier!
-Synthetic space maple syrup!

I don't understand why a secular nation has to keep christen its indigenous scientific instruments with Sanskrit names of religious connotation. Its a moment of pride for all Indians, and we must have more inclusive names. Arjun, Tejas, Prithvi, Agni and now Chandrayaan ? Sounds like the Sangh Parivar's vision of India to me.

^Would you prefer it if they were given Latin/Greek names? Or how about that Arabized/Bastardized langauage known as Urdu? Sanskrit is the classical language of India.

The plusses for the moon mission are many: It advances the cause of pure science, affirms/confirms the quality of Indian made components and systems since anything made for space has to be of good quality; enhances India as an attractive source of commercial launches, thereby bringing in foreign exchange into India; paves the way for larger missions, such as a manned one, a Mars one and a space station; and yes, though overstated, improves the 'image' of the country. The question of poverty vs the space programme- why drag in the Indian space agency into this? They are NOT huge consumers of money, and they give a lot to the cause of economic development, as another poster pointed out. India's space programme is the most civilian oriented of just about all the major countries. China's, Russia's and the US' in its early stages were all military oriented and mitary derived; China's to this day is military controlled. The military linkages in India are minimal. It's much more about telecommincations, I&B, remote sensing for resource detection and space science i.e astronomy. If you are looking for waste, look at corruption and luxury imports.