I’ve always thought they would be more accepting of a Muslim man, no matter what race, but my friends always begged to differ that racism prevailed over all.

isn't this strongly conditioned on how religious your parents are? my own exp. is a certain level of moderate racism can be taken as basal, but if they are really hardcore muslims that can nullify any racial bias if the individual is a "good" muslim (though obviously hardcore muslims might have problems with their children "dating," there are ways to meet people at masjid, etc.). because of the officially universal nature of islamic fellowship i've seen plenty fundies being the least racist within their community.

two general points i would make to this post

1) it's just an internet post obviously, but the objection that you're collapsing all sorts of issues into a dichotomy comes to the fore immediately. after all, one can favor obama, even enthusiastically, while exhibiting hostility toward black americans. e.g., i know people whose logic is that obama might be black, but the republicans are racist, and racism of republicans trumps their own racism.

2) i'd take bets that barack obama changes things only insofar as shifting this country to the left, not re: race relations. india, pakistan and bangladesh have had female political leaders, but none of this changes the reality that these are very patriarchal cultures.

you're seeing stuff like this all over the internet:
Last week, Julie Hensley made one of her thousands of phone calls on behalf of Barack Obama. A woman answered. As Hensley ran through her short script, the husband impatiently broke in.

"Ma'am, we're voting for the n***er." And hung up.

specifically as far as brown folk go, there's obviously a majority preference for "sharp" (read: west asian/european) features and lighter skin within the community. anti-black racism among brownz doesn't have a strong historical salience as it does with white southerners, lots of brown folk probably just don't want to see the "ugly" offspring. that's probably the main reason that white SOers would experience somewhat less visceral revulsion; the children would turn out more attractive by the normative standards of the brown community than they otherwise would be.

um... I am having bad flashbacks to being part of someone's rebellion against the parents.

Anyhoo... of topical note, sparks fly between Babar and Fatima on LMOTP. Of course, the cynic in me thinks the only reason this is being picturized is because neither of the two actors is muslim in real life.

non story

2 • su kaçağı said

How'd you make all them funky accent marks?

4 · don't know what to say said

non story

yes, racism, gender, parent-chidl relations, and sexuality are clearly competely irrelevant to the lives of south asians in the united states ;)

where do you people come from?

A few more things,

"’ve always thought they would be more accepting of a Muslim man, no matter what race,"

Black muslims have a different brand of practicing and a different social history in general. So muslim A doesn't consider muslim B a true muslim.

let's not forget the anti-bradley effect, that is, if black men are at the lowest end of the totem pole, it's fairly obvious who is at the top end, of course all this is *conditioned* on choosing a mate out of race (for most desi parents anyway)

"anti-black racism among brownz doesn't have a strong historical salience as it does with white southerners, lots of brown folk probably just don't want to see the "ugly" offspring. that's probably the main reason that white SOers would experience somewhat less visceral revulsion;"

Disagree, according to Vijay Prashad's Karma of Brown folk, desi's do have their own variety of anti black racism, of course it's not entirely disconnected from the parent white variety, but the resistence to black SO's goes a bit deeper than simple appearance. Besides, even if it is only appearance, the categorization of 'white' as beautiful and "black" as ugly is also an artifact of that very same anti-black racism perpetrated.

Desis including myself are going to vote for Obama not because he is black, but because he is not Mccain/Republican, his policies etc. Who in their right mind think that Obama is your typical black male? Seriously! He distants himself from the typical black people. How many kids out of wedlock does he have? None! He got the best swagger? Maybe! He would have never gotten the nomination if he wasn't part of the white aspirations. He is just the black version of the American dream. But he is not the African American dream! I know a lot of black people who are voting for Obama just because he is black. They don't care about his policies or experience. It's part of the black reparations for them. They think that Obama is one of their homie. Alot of them are not voting for him because they believe America is not ready for black president. So If you are going by this article,I guess if you vote for Obama you are going to like Rap music. This country is going to crapper but who cares black people will get more booty because there is a black president.

SDMF's, what would you parents say if you brought OBAMA home?

"I know a lot of black people"

Sure, Mr. Singh, sure you do...

Desi girl brings home a black dude. Sure the parents might cringe. Question is. If they cringe. How does desi girl deal with it? Is she willing to cut off parental relationships to live her own life? In some cases yes. Many cases no.

Thing is this, if I was the black dudes friend, being desi myself I would say to dude, run from desi girl and don't look back.

I'm stunned after reading this story and these comments, to see the level of unembarrassed racism and race-consciousness that exists within the brown community, among both parents and adult children.

I agree with "don't know what to say" that this ought to be a non story.

And I'm, suddently, increcibly grateful that my own parents aren't racists, and never instilled these fears in me.

Can someone help me with my homework? It's linear algebra, not too hard for all you macacs.

Hey Mr.Singh, Did u grew up in Alaska? Those are some mavericky statements u made there.

Over the years, I’ve dated a Desi Hindu and a Black Muslim and I’ve always wondered with whom my parents would cringe less with — would their racial prejudice or Muslim orthodoxy take precedence?

I can't generalise based on one example. My friend (a Tamil Hindu) married a Bangaladeshi Muslim girl and her parents were quite happy. The funny thing is he had four weddings, one in a mosque, one in a temple, one when they registered the marriage and the general reception in the banquet hall with cake cutting etc. I teased him for his four weddings but he was sick and tired of it. He has to hide the mosque wedding from his parents and the temple wedding with the girl's relatives. Her parents are Ok with it. It was fun to hear his stories. I asked, dude are u going to celebrate four anniversaries, for which he replied that they were planning to celebrate the day when they actually registered and ignore the rest.

As a desi lesbian dating a white American, I often wonder if coming to my parents would be slightly easier if I were dating a desi woman. I think they'll freak out either way, though! :)

lol, if only I had the time to delve into the psycho-semantics of what drives desi women into the arms of Black men.

16 · Ashkar said

lol, if only I had the time to delve into the psycho-semantics of what drives desi women into the arms of Black men.

someone went to college!

If elected, will Obama...

Going by what I have observed, if Obama wins, it won't be because Americans are open-minded enough to elect a black President, but because they've had enough of the current administration. Back in India, it's called the anti-incumbency factor.

i'm not sure it would change anything for my parents - my mother does not see obama as a black person - not for the reasons that mr. singh stated, but because he was raised by his maternal (white) grandparents and she believes that his trying to 'appear' as a black man is just a play to appeal to black voters.

also, i would imagine that some population of the desi muslim parents would not think of black people as 'real' muslims (for various reasons), in which case, a black muslim man would essentially be seen as simply as a black man.

Thing is this, if I was the black dudes friend, being desi myself I would say to dude, run from desi girl and don't look back.

i must say, though, that it's not just the parents who feel this way - so many of my own desi friends have balked at the idea that i could get serious with anybody non-desi - in particular, anybody black. and my non-desi friends - most of them only try to set me up or suggest desi guys for me - despite my repeated statements that i would be fine dating anybody.

thanks for the post, taz!

7 · Mr.Singh said

How many kids out of wedlock does he have? None!

Yeah, that would be the other candidate. Who knew Sarah Palin was not just female, but also black?

7 · Mr.Singh said

This country is going to crapper but who cares black people will get more booty

What? Wall Street is full of black people?

I think the election of Barack Obama would do wonders for inspiring African American youth across the country and reforming mainstream black culture. In his 2004 key note, he controversially said that it was the time to "turn off the televisions and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white." I think the imagery behind his presidency is inspiring enough, but coupled with a vigorous attempt to improve education in our urban communities will have a very profound effect.

I know a lot of black people who are voting for Obama just because he is black. They don't care about his policies or experience. It's part of the black reparations for them. They think that Obama is one of their homie.

George Will said pretty much the same thing after the Powell endorsement.

SDMF's, what would you parents say if you brought OBAMA home?

Wouldn't they say - he went to Harvard, his father went to Harvard, his mother has a Ph.D, but I wish he didn't smoke?

There are many indian parents who would be upset even if the person being introduced is white.
This has as much to do with cultural identity as plain racism.

SDMF's, what would you parents say if you brought OBAMA home?

"But why didn't he go to medschool?"

16 · Ashkar said

lol, if only I had the time to delve into the psycho-semantics of what drives desi women into the arms of Black men.

seriously, did it not even for a second occur to some people that maybe, just maybe, some desi women are "driven into the arms of Black men" because they might perhaps love the person for who they are? why the hell does a desi women with a black man have to be "driven" to it. As a desi woman in a relationship with a Black man that is going to lead to marriage, despite parents' reaction, I would like to state that for some of us, it is a choice based on love and not some messed up idea of not having any other options. Maybe, some desis dont have the same parochial ideas about race that have been expressed in some of the above comments.

Obama will do for political black youth the same that Arthur Ashe did for black tennis player or Tiger Woods did for black golf players: NOTHING.

obama will do for racism what goldman sachs did for ant-semitism on wallst, which is not to say he'll end it, but rather show us the way to overcome it.

just maybe, some desi women are "driven into the arms of Black men" because they might perhaps love the person for who they are?

What is this dating and love of which you are speaking? Where is filial piety?

30 · Auntie N said

What is this dating and love of which you are speaking? Where is filial piety?

i agree with auntie. stop acting white

Such a White conversation, circa 1970s.

19 · ak said

Thing is this, if I was the black dudes friend, being desi myself I would say to dude, run from desi girl and don't look back.

no fair! and if he does it, he's not too far in his behavior from the girl's parents.

Yeah man, I also think that is no fair. Because some of us women don't care what race the guy is, as long as he's a voter. But I can't control if his desi friends impart f***ed up cultural issues from the community that I personally don't feel. I've had this come up a couple of times when dating black men.

desiwoman - totally got your back.

Razib - to throw another direct correlation into your analysis - despite how religious my folks are, the closer I get to 30, the more willing it seems they are to not have racial preferences. This past year my mom was telling me she'd be ok with me marrying a white guy - something unheard of ten years ago. I think I'll ask her the what she thinks of me marrying a Hindu Desi or a Black Man.

To compare politics and education to sports is not fair. Golf and tennis are boring compared to the alternatives, but there is no alternatives to education and politics. Politics surrounds us, while sport is recreation and an escape. Im not saying that this is the cure for all racial problems, but it is one hurdle that is cleared. It is one more excuse that cant be used in order to blame problems on and that is a positive thing and I dont see any harm in it.

And the dating thing will become a less and less of an issue once Indian's figure out that it is impossible to hold out your whole life for a color. It might still be a problem for your parents, but ask yourself if when the time comes will it be a problem for you as a parent and there is your answer.

Indians in India on the other hand are stuck in the dark ages of race and will be there for maybe another 200 hundred years. Here is a clip of a Indian crowd chanting "He is a monkey" at a black cricket player and it makes you lose faith in India as a country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEtGOoGvXvI

34 · ShallowThinker said

Here is a clip of a Indian crowd chanting "He is a monkey" at a black cricket player and it makes you lose faith in India as a country.

yikes. cringe inducing. i jumped into a cab the other day and the kenyan driver immediately asked me, "are we going to win?" meaning obama. a long political discussion ensued which eventually got to racism and he asked me why indians hate blacks and i said in my typically glib style "we hate blacks because we hate ourselves" which he really really liked. "that's profound man, profound;" he said.

then he told me Africans aren't racist at all. i said; "wow, that's wild."

I don't think you can argue that Obama won't change the personal Bradley effect at a macro level. When suddenly, you look more like the President than the majority of your community, clients, classmates, etc., something, at some level, changes fundamentally.

hell, my mum would LOVE for me to bring home someone of a different race! I think she's mildly frustrated/bored that my sisters' lives are so similar to her own!

36 · Sandeep Sood said

When suddenly, you look more like the President than the majority of your community, clients, classmates, etc., something, at some level, changes fundamentally.

hmmm, never thought of that. we live in interesting times. definitely going to be an entertaining 4 years.

I'm not at the stage in my life wbere marriage is an issue, but I can honestly say that a middle class black guy and a middle class white guy would be received with equal amount of cringing in my family. Preferring desis has to do with cultural identity than racism. I don't think I would have the patience to walk them through the myriad of rules and norms that someone raised in a desi family would already by familiar with. But I realize that there are desis who actually see this as a problem. I know a girl whose family my white best friend calls "white-washed" and her dad told her that she couldn't marry anyone who was black or S. Indian (because kids will be dark) and any other ethnic group would be too conservative to accept her. I sometimes feel the skin colour thing is much stronger in N. Indian families than it is in S. Indian families because I have never heard anyone in my family talk of a dark complexion as a detriment to beauty.

A related issue:

Who knows what lies in the hearts of sistagirls...

29 · Manju said

obama will do for racism what goldman sachs did for ant-semitism on wallst, which is not to say he'll end it, but rather show us the way to overcome it.

Desis on wall-street don't need someone to show the way to overcome racism, what decade are you living in?

Taz,
What's missiing from your post is the race/culture dymanic between you and the guys you say you dated. What did they think of the fact that they could not meet your folks? it couldn;t have been easy from anybody. What if the situation was reversed? I know this may all be very personal but since you decided to post....let's hear the whole story. It might provide more focus to the discussion. Otherwise, its this tpoci is destined to be stuck on first gear on the SM freeway.

The black community in America is mixed in with many races (Native American, European, East Asian (ex Tiger Woods), South Asian, Middle Eastern) with African ancestry connecting all of them. In the Caribbean, you do have some interracial marriages between the South Asian population and the black population.

There may be the generic bias against race that one race has against another. Black Americans can be racists too. Just because a minority group has a history of being oppressed does not mean they do not have prejudice against other races and cultures and religions.

There is then the question of dating and marriage. Obama is a good case. He is bi-racial but people react to him as a black man not a bi-racial man, not a white man though he grew up with his white mother and white grandparents. His African father divorced his mother and returned to Kenya when Obama was a toddler. He has also accepted himself as a black man as he wrote in one of his books. When he was a child he did not realize he needed a "race" until later. Too bad the world did not let him keep such a view. But he is comfortable being a black man of mixed heritage with a racially and religiously diverse family - white, black, asian (half sister by his mother and Indonesian step dad), Christian, Muslim, Jewish (Michelle Obama has a black relative who is a Rabbi, yes a Black Rabbi).

One resistance people have to interracial marriages is that the children of an interracial marriage may identify with one of the parents race. It depends on which race the child can pass for - some black-white children look white, and the black community is less accepting of those who pass for white.

Actually in England there are many White English who have black ancestors from blacks free from the slave era. Or another ironic example "James Watson, the man who worked with Francis Crick to identify the double-helical structure of DNA, who upon casual inspection might well qualify for the title of "most blatantly Caucasian male" among a raft of serious contenders that includes Mitt Romney, Tucker Carlson, Harry Reid and Peyton Manning, is actually black! An Iceland-based genomics company, deCODE genetics, conducted an analysis of Watson's DNA, which Watson had allowed to be placed on the Internet, and found that 16 percent of his genes are likely to have come from a black ancestor...Indeed, the racial outing of Watson was quite a surprise — most likely to the 79-year-old Nobel-prize winner. This past October he was forced to cancel a tour promoting his new book in England after opining in a British newspaper that he felt “inherently gloomy about the prospects for Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours — whereas all the testing says not really.” Jim’s fretting left him without a job at home — he retired from his job as chancellor at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in New York — and no longer especially welcome on the speaking circuit anywhere serious. Finding out one has black genes seems especially inconvenient for somebody proclaiming blacks to be genetically inferior." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22248094/

41 · DesiInNJ said

Desis on wall-street don't need someone to show the way to overcome racism, what decade are you living in?

i didn't mean to imply the O-man would show desis how to evercome racism...I meant wasps.

FYI Africans as a community have been living in India for centuries:

" Long before the first slave ships started supplying labour to the cotton plantations of the American south, and many centuries before the first Africans were brought ashore to the sugar estates of Brazil and the Caribbean, Africans were being sold as slave-soldiers for India's princely states.

Their descendants are the least visible part of the huge African diaspora.

But today in India, almost lost among the mosaic of different cultures and communities in that country, are tens of thousands of people of African descent.

They are known as Sidis.

Slavery
Although they came at first as slaves, they were so successful as fighters that they at times usurped power from the rulers they were supposed to be serving.

"The Sidis are descendants of African slaves, sailors and servants, and merchants who remained in India after arriving through the sea trade with East Africa and the Gulf," says Amy Catlin of the University of California, who is making a special study of Sidi culture.

"That was a process which began in the 12th century or before, and lasted until the late 19th century".

Lost touch
Some Sidis are keenly aware of their past, and a few remain in touch with relatives in Africa. But in the western Indian state of Gujarat - where most Sidis live - the community has lost touch with its roots.

The village of Jambur, deep in the Gir forest, is one of two exclusively Sidi settlements.

It is miserably poor.

The headman explains that yes, everyone in Jambur is a Sidi.

Their forbears came from Africa.

But they have lost any knowledge of African languages, and don't know where exactly their ancestors came from or why they settled in India.

Music and dance
The only remnant they retain of their African lineage is their music and dance. This is what Professor Catlin, an ethno-musicologist, hopes to use to fill in the story of the Sidis.

"In Gujarat, affinities with African music include certain musical instruments and their names", she says, "and also the performance of an African-derived musical genre called "goma".

In the nearby town of Junagadh, a smaller group of Sidis lives alongside the shrine of Bava Gor, an ancient Sufi Muslim holyman who was himself of African descent.

Their hold on their African past is a little more secure.

They say they know a few songs in an African language, but not their meaning.

And their dance is more obviously African.

But again, their music, song and dance are the only links with their African past.

Amy Catlin believes that the Sidis of western India came from coastal and inland villages in east Africa which were raided by slave traders.

But that's far from certain.

Indeed, one legend has it that the Sidis of inland Gujarat originally came from Kano in northern Nigeria, and ended up in India after undertaking a Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca.

Music may be the only key that can unlock their past.

If you have any idea where the Sidis come from, please use the e-mail form below. Andrew Whitehead will use a selection of your e-mails on a forthcoming edition of the BBC World Service radio programme The World Today" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1035389.stm

22 · liberallamp said

I think the election of Barack Obama would do wonders for inspiring African American youth across the country and reforming mainstream black culture. In his 2004 key note, he controversially said that it was the time to "turn off the televisions and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white." I think the imagery behind his presidency is inspiring enough, but coupled with a vigorous attempt to improve education in our urban communities will have a very profound effect.

I hope it has the same effect. Black youth desperately needs good role models...not the drug dealers driving pink range rovers who 'made it'.

46 · stark said

I hope it has the same effect. Black youth desperately needs good role models...not the drug dealers driving pink range rovers who 'made it'.

when drug dealers drive blue range rovers we'll finally know we're free at last. thank godalmighty.

42 · Neale said

What if the situation was reversed? I know this may all be very personal but since you decided to post....let's hear the whole story.

Neale,

How about next time you are in LA, we can discuss this over dinner? ;-) In the meantime I'll let the people who are able to be anonymous lead the conversation here. Knowing that both boys (and other boys) read this blog, I'll respect their privacy.

41 · DesiInNJ said

Desis on wall-street don't need someone to show the way to overcome racism, what decade are you living in?

I think you're not understanding what racism is. It's a system - albeit one that works through ideas as much as institutions. Desis on wall street might have achieved high economic or social status (with varying attitudes by their employers towards their race and vice versa) but that doesn't mean that they've somehow gotten out of the racial hierarchy. They might actually need more help, since the closer you get to power, the more likely you might be to adopt its ideas, including racism agains the poeple below you.

So, you're single ? :)

10 · glass houses said

Desi girl brings home a black dude. Sure the parents might cringe. Question is. If they cringe. How does desi girl deal with it? Is she willing to cut off parental relationships to live her own life? In some cases yes. Many cases no.

Thing is this, if I was the black dudes friend, being desi myself I would say to dude, run from desi girl and don't look back.

Run away as in "This girl is crazy?"

31 · Manju said

30 · Auntie N said

What is this dating and love of which you are speaking? Where is filial piety?

i agree with auntie. stop acting white

nothing "white" about that. as for filial piety, damn, if that means being racist, i'll pass.

31 · Manju said

30 · Auntie N said

What is this dating and love of which you are speaking? Where is filial piety?

i agree with auntie. stop acting white

again, i love how for many desis "acting white" is dating people regardless of race or what other people may think. what a narrow view of what being "desi." Also last time I checked, dating a Black man was not "acting white," in fact far from it - just ask some of your white friends

As for "filial piety," this is once again such a narrow view expressed here- maybe filial piety could be constructed less as a relationship where adult "children" do as they are told, and more as a relationship where families could come together as individuals with their own opinions, independent actions but still mutual respect. I'm not naive, but I would rather be an idealist than be stuck in some of those miserable relationships that I have seen people stuck in for the sake of "filial piety."

39 · Lea said

I'm not at the stage in my life wbere marriage is an issue, but I can honestly say that a middle class black guy and a middle class white guy would be received with equal amount of cringing in my family. Preferring desis has to do with cultural identity than racism. I don't think I would have the patience to walk them through the myriad of rules and norms that someone raised in a desi family would already by familiar with. But I realize that there are desis who actually see this as a problem. I know a girl whose family my white best friend calls "white-washed" and her dad told her that she couldn't marry anyone who was black or S. Indian (because kids will be dark) and any other ethnic group would be too conservative to accept her. I sometimes feel the skin colour thing is much stronger in N. Indian families than it is in S. Indian families because I have never heard anyone in my family talk of a dark complexion as a detriment to beauty.

Everyone wants to be remembered and survived through their offspring. It's a natural biological drive. I think the source of most of my parents' anxiety about the race of my future spouse is the idea that by marrying someone who is not Indian then my children's children will be much more prone to forgetting where they came from. Everyone needs to feel like they are a part of something that continues on after they are gone. For many Indians their heritage is part of that and some part of them wants to see it continued. It's really about living for something greater than yourself.

52 · desiwoman said

31 · Manju said

30 · Auntie N said

What is this dating and love of which you are speaking? Where is filial piety?

i agree with auntie. stop acting white

nothing "white" about that. as for filial piety, damn, if that means being racist, i'll pass.

There are cultural issues at stake here. Maybe if we lived in some lalaland where there were no cultural differences between groups and we were all just one big mixed up stew of identical peoples this might make sense. But to some people sustaining their cultural identity across generations is an important thing and they're uncomfortable with the idea that future generations will eventually stop identifying themselves as Indian. It does not necessarily have to mean that anyone thinks Black (or any other) people are bad or inferior in any way.

I don't want to speak for anyone else. But I think the "acting White" bit is more about acting like your happiness as an individual is the only thing that matters over and above everything else.

43 · Sameer said

The black community in America is mixed in with many races (Native American, European, East Asian (ex Tiger Woods), South Asian, Middle Eastern) with African ancestry connecting all of them. In the Caribbean, you do have some interracial marriages between the South Asian population and the black population.

There may be the generic bias against race that one race has against another. Black Americans can be racists too. Just because a minority group has a history of being oppressed does not mean they do not have prejudice against other races and cultures and religions.

With all due respect, the reason why some Black Americans can be considered racists, is because if you and your ethnic group lived all or most of your life in a country where all groups have to hate or socially/culturally isolate themselves from an entire race of people they think are beneath them in order to be full-fledged citizens, and it's socially/culturally (and some past cases legally) accepted to disdain your group (the "them"), you wouldn't have warm lovely feelings toward those who disrespects you just because of your "differences," now would you? Respect isn't a one-way street.

Unlike other ethnicities, there's not a cultural bond, tradition or a "heritage" in Black Americans, to collectively ignore an entire race of people, just for the heck of it, or for "cultural" reasons...unless that group's cultural heritage is to wear white sheets and robes, and burn crosses every weekend.

SDMF's, what would you parents say if you brought OBAMA home?

They would say, Hai, I put him next to my son, I should think. Don't forget that Barack Obama is some serious man candy. Plus, he's more or less all-purpose brown and knows how to make dal.

hmmm, never thought of that. we live in interesting times. definitely going to be an entertaining 4 years.

Eight years, Manju my dear, eight.

Taz,
I am always in L.A :-). I was looking forward to a "names have been changed to protect the identity" type post.

Plus, he's more or less all-purpose brown

Precisely, Amrita. You summed it up concisely and exactly. The talking heads don't have a grip on this, but it's real and it's deep!

Amrita on October 26, 2008 07:00 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

hmmm, never thought of that. we live in interesting times. definitely going to be an entertaining 4 years.

Eight years, Manju my dear, eight.

Right on!

Here in SoCal Obama is having an interesting galvanizing effect- from art to discourse among various "races"- especially"mixed" folks. The racial and religious divisiveness of McCain got old awhile ago, and, in an area like SoCal with its border issues and the military spying on local mosques, etc., it's a relief to have someone stand up and sincerely say that the US is made up of all of us. About damn time. As for Obama being "African-American-" he is part of a new segment of African-American society that does not spring from the horrors of US slavery. There is a growing number of people with direct connections to Africa and the Caribbean/Belize who are not part of that background and there needs to be room for them.

Frankly, I'm just thankful he's intelligent, educated and reads books. Hell, he even writes them! Unlike W who fondles foreign heads of state and stumbles over words with more than two syllables. It would be nice to be less embarrassed about being American for awhile.

"Yeah man, I also think that is no fair. Because some of us women don't care what race the guy is, as long as he's a voter. But I can't control if his desi friends impart f***ed up cultural issues from the community that I personally don't feel. I've had this come up a couple of times when dating black men. "

Taz I get what you're saying and I feel you. I was writing as someone who would be close to the black kid and not knowing the desi girl at all. My thing is this, I've SEEN how desi parents put potential boyfriends/girlfriends through the insane meat grinder. I would have NO wish to see any of my non desi friends male or female be subject to that. If I KNEW a non desi friend of mine were getting involved (involved seriously not FWB, fuck buddies) with a desi girl or guy with nutjob parents, brothers etc I would tell him or her..just walk. They are fucked up cultural issues Taz, but they are all too real. I've seen too many non desi friends get into 2-3 year relationships only to have the desi guy or girl quit on them because the desi parents couldn't get beyond the bullshit.

"Run away as in "This girl is crazy?" "

Not at all Huey. The girl might be an absolute peach, but if I knew her parents to be super duper uncool I would lay out the facts for any non desi friend who might not be aware of the insanity of some of our elders.

54 · NaraVara said

39 · Lea said

Everyone wants to be remembered and survived through their offspring. It's a natural biological drive. I think the source of most of my parents' anxiety about the race of my future spouse is the idea that by marrying someone who is not Indian then my children's children will be much more prone to forgetting where they came from. Everyone needs to feel like they are a part of something that continues on after they are gone. For many Indians their heritage is part of that and some part of them wants to see it continued. It's really about living for something greater than yourself.

Very well said. Jews are the biggest example of this.

I'm writing this post as I'm watching Mississippis Massala-what irony! But this comment stuck out to me

My parents would not be comfortable with me marrying a White girl. That doesn't mean they would not accept her with open arms or love the grandchildren we have any less. But the fact is that if I marry a Desi girl they will be much more secure in the knowledge that our kids will be Indian.

Taz I get what you're saying and I feel you. I was writing as someone who would be close to the black kid and not knowing the desi girl at all.

65 · Crest said

I'm writing this post as I'm watching Mississippis Massala-what irony! But this comment stuck out to me

My parents would not be comfortable with me marrying a White girl. That doesn't mean they would not accept her with open arms or love the grandchildren we have any less. But the fact is that if I marry a Desi girl they will be much more secure in the knowledge that our kids will be Indian.

What bothers me is when ABD also have a problem with other desis that marry out of the desi culture. I do understand that with the parents it is sometimes hard to change the thought process-they were brought up in a different time, but with the ABD that were brought up here and are still so closed minded I get quite upset-we should be so much more accepting to others decisions even if they are not our own. If one decides that the man or woman of their dreams is somebody from another race but that person is everything they ever wanted and they are willing to do what they need to make it work so be it-wish them all the best in the world, god knows marriage is hard enough without loosing your friends because you married somebody of a different race.

First off, let me say that NaraVara (the person you quoted) really points out the real root issue of why Indians are not as accepting of interracial marriages. I'm sure racism is a part at times as well, but NaraVara's point of the desire to retain the cultural lineage is the primary reason for this.

Now to your point Crest.. I for one, as an ABD, would never look down on a person who chooses to marry outside of their Indian roots. Instead I would just be slightly dissapointed in a general sense of that their descendants would less likely to retain their Indian roots. Again, I have no problem personally with them but just disappointed with the disintegration of our Indian culture(not saying that's a bad thing, just a desire as an Indian myself to see our culture survive the generations).

So at times this dissapointment might affect the freindship in certain ways, but of course it should never mean you shouldn't be freinds anymore. As I've made clear that I would personally not look at them in a negative fashion, but there will be consequences in terms of our relationship. Sure we'll continue to be freinds, but there will be some change. Our differences in views of retaining our culture will and might distance freinds in certain arenas (family get togethers, advising kids on culture etc;).

In summary, I think choosing to marry outside their own culture is fine and not a wrong choice. But I believe whomever chooses that route, is also choosing to allow that their family and descendants will drift from the cultural identity and values of their Indian roots.

For me personally I wouldn't want this as I consider many of our core Indian values worth retaining but still willing to take those values from America that I feel are beneficial for my family. In my opinion we should be open to change by gaining values from other cultures, but that doesn't mean I want to throw away my core Indian culture. Both Indian and outside cultures have their merits and their faults. I choose to see my Indian culture as something not better nor worse than any other culture, but a culture that has proved the test of many generations and as an Indian I'm proud of and want to retain for my descendants. Of course for many others Indians, this may not be the case which is fine by me.

Good to see that ABDs care about their parents' opinions, though sometimes I wonder whether the parents are just a bogey. Most white folks who date black people also go through such conflicting thoughts, but they never use their parents as a proxy punching bag for their conflicting emotions.

If you really like a person from a different race, and you have the guts to go ahead with a multi-racial relationship, go ahead and do it. Parents are just part of the weather you'll have to face, and it happens in all cultures, and happens to DBDs as well. Why blame the poor parents if you don't have the stomach for it? Look up to Obama's mamma, instead of Obama.

The ABDs are a bunch of first class whiners, with nothing much to their credit to speak of as a group, and always complaining about how the culture binds their "freedoms". If you think about it, the ABD generation, with their privileged accents, privileged upbringing, and privileged education, haven't achieved anything much to speak of. Where is the ABD (Amartya Sen, Mira Nair, Vinod Khosla, Indra Nooyi, Vikram Pandit, Kalpana Shrama,....)? They like to bask in the reflected glory of such people, and then whine about how the culture is soooo offputting, forgetting that the culture has a lot to do with the success of such people, and they all value it greatly. If there weren't such people, the ABD generation would've extended the whining about their parents' attitudes to the entire diaspora, and whined about how the bad accents and eating-with-hands of Indian programmers make them look cheap. Time the DBDs, particularly the parents, started whining about how the ABDs make them look like losers.

If you are man/woman enough, take your partner home, and convince your parents. Or go live on your own. Why bad-mouth your parents after all they have done for you?

End of rant.

hopefully this comic is right and the general public will rethink their decision to vote for nobama. the fact that desis support his policies that really devalue hardwork is astonishing. (and no, i'm not a "maverick" mccain supporter....he is just as terrible of a candidate as obama)

GO THIRD PARTY....half of registered voters don't vote, with many citing the reason that neither candidate represents their views. those who do vote, choose 1 of the two republicrats often despite their beliefs not being represented simply because a vote for a third party who does stand for their beliefs is just a "throw away vote". however, while a third party vote may not get the person elected, if enough people do it, it will start sending a message that the majority of america thinks this bipartisan system is just not cutting it.

As for Obama being "African-American-" he is part of a new segment of African-American society that does not spring from the horrors of US slavery. There is a growing number of people with direct connections to Africa and the Caribbean/Belize who are not part of that background and there needs to be room for them.

Come on in! there is "room" for them, just a point of fact; "Africans" in South America, Central America as well as the Caribbean were part of the same trans atlantic slave trade that bought "African Americans to the shores of North America. In spite of the psychic powers many have alluded to (but never proved) in insinuating Michelle Obama 'hates' all non black people- her accomplishments are just as real as his. Its divisive and insulting to think she or any other "African American" has any less stake or desire in seeing America as black and white, us and them etc. to be perpetually perceived as step children in our own country. USA! indeed.

I am amazed, awed and at the same time inspired by the comments this comic has provoked (love the comic, love the style), as well as the comments on the site it was originally posted on. How can there be such vast differences in the way we perceive ourselves as a culture, vis-a-vis our perception of African Americans as a race? One person says that she can't believe this discussion is still happening amongst second-generations Indians (on the Devis with Babies site); another person says the entire topic is a "non story" (one of the first posts here); yet others agree almost non-chalantly with the idea that, at the end of the day, most Indians will not end up with anybody of another race. I, personally, find the take-away from this dialogue to be that intelligent, accomplished Indians are more racist than I believed...but...and perhaps this is more naivete than the readers of this particular blog can stomach...but I can't help but think that the imminent election of Obama (thank god) is going to help ameliorate this racism. While I am shocked that this level of racism exists amongst us (which means it must be so much worse amongst our parents, and amongst the "us" who are too embarrassed to post a comment), I have faith that change begets change and culture takes everyone in its waves...Obama being elected IS culture...it will change everything.

On a really practical level...We need to lower the desi threshold for introducing boyfriends and girlfriends to parents. I regret not having introduced my girlfriends to my parents at all or in good time. Their reactions to differences in age, race, and religion were as pronounced as I expected, but I underestimated their ultimate capacity to grow and accept and love and provide guidance. It was my loss not to involve them more in my early twenties life. So putting these grand statements aside about how racist desis are or aren't, my advice to Taz would be to withhold less from your parents. I learned to be patient with my parents' initial reactions.

I think ABD offsprings seriously misunderstand the value of appreciating one's own culture. Although America is presented as a bastion of multiculturalism, it is actually a very homogenous and homogenizing nation--one language, one overall style of being, etc. South Asia, on the other hand, is a polygenous subcontinent, with a wide variety of religions and CULTURES co-existing for centuries. Yes, cultures evolve, and if ABDs want to marry out of their cultures and/or religions, that's fine.

But to demean those of us who want to preserve our cultures by labeling us as racists shows a striking lack of understanding about the complexities of marriage, the value of our attempts to maintain the world that has been with us for centuries.

Don't forget that the very values that many ABDs knock are the ones that have allowed South Asians (and Asians in general) to be the most successful minority in the West. Emphasizing family structure, respect for elders, respect for education, respect for one's body and sexuality and emotions, and above all, respect for the collective community rather than the individual are all why Asians can come from the poorest of regions during the worse of times (Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, Bangladesh) and have their children in graduate schools within one generation.

We have served you well. Show back some respect. Buying into facile discourses about race and identity and denigrating your own is an insult to those of us who came to a brand new country to give YOU a better life.

This discussion about desi parents or community being racist is really disheartening. Keep in mind that you may think that contemporary western culture right now is the one that fulfills you the most, but the long term picture is not that rosy. I am in the education field, and it is only now that we are beginning to see the effects of a culture that has devalued family so much. My (white, black, and hispanic) students have grown up essentially alone or in daycare, have the emotional maturity of children at least 5 years younger, are on serious meds like prozac or ritalin or worse, are unmotivated or have learning skills of someone 6 years junior, etc.

My point is, don't assume that breaking away from community so as to forge your own happy road will be a happy road for the greater community. You may see us as old fashioned, racist, obsessed with color, etc. That may be true, but we are also obsessed with feeding you, clothing you, making sure that we, and not the school teachers, are parents, and we also took painful steps to make it in a country alien to us so that you can come on this blog and whine about not being able to openly date a black man.

If you feel that you want to date out of your race, then have the strength of character to openly date that person. If your parents are immigrants, think about it: they LEFT their home country to start new in an unfamiliar nation. They probably put in 12-14 hour days to feed and shelter you. They probably always had a warm meal for you and were probably around for you when you needed them. Your fathers probably never got all misty about existentialism and walked out the door because he needed to find himself. He probably hated his job, and stayed in, day in and day out so that you can have a better life. Your mother probably missed out on a career or gave up a family to brave a new world comparatively alone, and she probably still was always there to help you with your homework. Do you think you can show that level of commitment and courage? If so, have the guts to date whoever you want openly, instead of secretly, but only with courage to whine on a blog.

Seriously, a little self awareness and a little more introspection cannot hurt.

63 · glass houses said

"Run away as in "This girl is crazy?" "

Not at all Huey. The girl might be an absolute peach, but if I knew her parents to be super duper uncool I would lay out the facts for any non desi friend who might not be aware of the insanity of some of our elders.

Glass houses, please explain this to me as if I were a first grader. What is about this "difference" that would make non-desi suitors change their minds of meeting with their potential desi in-laws? Will they be given quizzes about Indian culture? Would they be constantly compared with other persons of color of the same ethnicity, who have done unlawful or illegal acts? I mean, if one brings home a black boyfriend, do you think that the South Asian person needs to sit their parents down and let them watch "In the Heat of the Night," "A Raisin in the Sun" or "In the Pursuit of Happyness" before meeting him? Or maybe watch "Eyes On The Prize", so they'll have some knowledge of their potential son-in-law's history/culture?

Seriously, a little self awareness and a little more introspection cannot hurt.

Amen.

73 · GetOfMyLawn! said

If you feel that you want to date out of your race, then have the strength of character to openly date that person. If your parents are immigrants, think about it: they LEFT their home country to start new in an unfamiliar nation. They probably put in 12-14 hour days to feed and shelter you. They probably always had a warm meal for you and were probably around for you when you needed them. Your fathers probably never got all misty about existentialism and walked out the door because he needed to find himself. He probably hated his job, and stayed in, day in and day out so that you can have a better life. Your mother probably missed out on a career or gave up a family to brave a new world comparatively alone, and she probably still was always there to help you with your homework. Do you think you can show that level of commitment and courage? If so, have the guts to date whoever you want openly, instead of secretly, but only with courage to whine on a blog.

Seriously, a little self awareness and a little more introspection cannot hurt.

I just finished watching the Namesake(5th time) and the above paragraph fits the movie perfectly. I wonder where these whiny ABDs with their graduate degrees will be if their fathers had left their mothers to find themselves.

72 · GreenDaddy said

So putting these grand statements aside about how racist desis are or aren't, my advice to Taz would be to withhold less from your parents.

I think about that sometimes - but in the end, no matter what race the guys were, they were all douchebags. And I really want to introduce my folks to a guy that isn't a douchebag. Now that I'm older I'm more willing to introduce my parents to whom I date, no matter what race, but the boys around these days are still douchebags. It's an douchebag thing, not a race thing, why my folks haven't met boys I've dated in the past. :-)

That being said, I think it will be easier to bring home a non-desi boy if Obama is elected.

74 · Huey said

63 · glass houses said
I mean, if one brings home a black boyfriend, do you think that the South Asian person needs to sit their parents down and let them watch "In the Heat of the Night," "A Raisin in the Sun" or "In the Pursuit of Happyness" before meeting him? Or maybe watch "Eyes On The Prize", so they'll have some knowledge of their potential son-in-law's history/culture?

The Indian girl needs to get the black guy to watch "Kuch Kuch Hota Hai" and "Kabhi Kushi Khabi Gham" so he can get a better understanding of what's he's dealin with...Because those movies represents a 5000 year old culture just like the 'true story' based Pursuit of Happyness that convientantly skipped the fact that the real Chris Gardner abandoned his kid while pursuing his happyness....LOL

Seriously, a little self awareness and a little more introspection cannot hurt.

How about the introspection of domestic violence in the community? The patriarchal misogyny enforced with the big stick? The voices in this thread are largely male driven - for some odd reason the women's voice is devoid in this thread. To have "strength of character" as a woman to date out of race - and especially in the black community, takes some serious strength. Especially when you got beat every time you did something 'wrong.' And let's not forget the story of Sparkle Reid, the black woman murdered by her Desi father in-law because of her race. This isn't simply a story of "whiny ABDs" but a story where violence is prevalent when it comes to bringing up inter-racial, inter-ethnic, inter-religious marrying. Violence by DBDs on their ABD children.

I wonder where these whiny ABDs with their graduate degrees will be if their fathers had left their mothers to find themselves.

As for that statement, I'm pretty sure that some ABDs would have been better off if the mothers had the resources and community support to leave their fathers.

I don't mean to derail the thread (on my thread) it's just that this is a really complex issue that I feel can't be watered down to "whiny ABD" issues. And if you want self-awareness, let's REALLY try to be self-aware.

78 · Qbert said

74 · Huey said

63 · glass houses said
I mean, if one brings home a black boyfriend, do you think that the South Asian person needs to sit their parents down and let them watch "In the Heat of the Night," "A Raisin in the Sun" or "In the Pursuit of Happyness" before meeting him? Or maybe watch "Eyes On The Prize", so they'll have some knowledge of their potential son-in-law's history/culture?

The Indian girl needs to get the black guy to watch "Kuch Kuch Hota Hai" and "Kabhi Kushi Khabi Gham" so he can get a better understanding of what's he's dealin with...Because those movies represents a 5000 year old culture just like the 'true story' based Pursuit of Happyness that convientantly skipped the fact that the real Chris Gardner abandoned his kid while pursuing his happyness....LOL

Gee, I didn't think finding a decent job was pursuing "happyness." Call me crazy, but I thought finding a job was considered being "responsible?"
Maybe other films you could've picked better than "Kuch Kuch Hota Hai", nevertheless, I'm quite sure that the black boyfriend would have enough sense that not all Indian people start dancing (choreographed and in full costumes) whenever it rains, lol. "A Raisin in the Sun" is among the culture (although not 5000 years old, yet no LESS extraordinary) that represent the African-American struggle against insurmountable odds, despite the legal and socially accepted prejudice from others, yet still overcome.

To have "strength of character" as a woman to date out of race - and especially in the black community, takes some serious strength.

Hey, but a lot of the white liberal folk have it, why not you?

America is where anyone can forge ahead on their own, no one can really stop you from doing whatever you want. Why wait for Obama?

It IS a whiny ABD issue. Ever seen a blog anywhere else, of any community, wondering how outside events would help parents accept their mature kids' choices? Most mature kids do what they want, and convince parents that what they are doing is good, and takes responsibility for their decision. No one, seriously, no one, waits for an election, or any other external event, to do their talking for them.

No wonder you guys don't get anywhere -- you wouldn't know what to do without your parents, but you don't want to listen to them, and think they are not cool enough because they are not like white parents, and label them racists because you don't have strength of character to do what you want to do.

Boy, better put that C back in ABD.

To have "strength of character" as a woman to date out of race - and especially in the black community, takes some serious strength.

and you are SO sure the same pressure to marry within the community doesnt exist with other communities? pass me the kool-ade someone. the pressure that exists within the southasian/muslim/hindu/jain/punjabi/ahmadiya/malayalam/marathi/brahmin/jatt/sikh/marwari/telugu/aiyyar/khoja/parsi community - is a source of strength to many, especially when society still works on a trust based model. it isnt what you know but the network you have that really greases machinery. if you are to stand outside the community, do so - but dont expect to shame everyone else into following your belief system and shedding this support structure. i'll take a leap here. you state that you stand outside the hypocrisies of tradition. well... look within your immediate support structure and the thread that binds you all - would this community/coterie still exist if the 'cause' that fed it ceased to exist?

My experience is that the determinative factor in desi parents' reaction to significant others outside their range of ideal mates is not race, or religion, or even class, but age. I.e., as they get older, they start to worry that you won't get married at all, and the prospect of not even having grandkids scares them much more than the prospect of said grandkids not being exactly the right color or creed. Also, more and more of your relatives and acquaintances will marry outside of the "ideal" envelope over these years, and so they see it's not such a nightmare after all. I'd predict that, on average, by the time you hit thirty, if you are still single your parents will be putting up much less resistance on this front.

80 · Huey said

78

Gee, I didn't think finding a decent job was pursuing "happyness." Call me crazy, but I thought finding a job was considered being "responsible?"
Maybe other films you could've picked better than "Kuch Kuch Hota Hai", nevertheless, I'm quite sure that the black boyfriend would have enough sense that not all Indian people start dancing (choreographed and in full costumes) whenever it rains, lol. "A Raisin in the Sun" is among the culture (although not 5000 years old, yet no LESS extraordinary) that represent the African-American struggle against insurmountable odds, despite the legal and socially accepted prejudice from others, yet still overcome.

Gardner left his wife for his mistress, had a baby with her. He did cocaine, sold cocaine. All on his way to pursue his happyness just like any responsible man. This reminds me when I got the pink slip, I did coke off a stripper on my way to the unemployment office. I'm not undermining the African American struggle, but in the contemporary American society black people have more opportunities than any immigrant landing in this country. But so few choose to use it!

Here is a clip of a Indian crowd chanting "He is a monkey" at a black cricket player and it makes you lose faith in India as a country.

but the boys around these days are still douchebags. It's an douchebag thing, not a race thing, why my folks haven't met boys I've dated in the past.

Seriously, a little self awareness and a little more introspection cannot hurt.

What I think is absolutely hilarious is the idea that if an Indian were to marry inside the Indian community, the offspring would carry on the Indian culture and tradition better than a mixed Indian child would.

Simply having a child from an Indian-Indian relationship will not instantly transfer years of culture and identity to the child. It is the environment in which the child is raised that determines his or her cultural identity.

Your fear is that the purebred Indian child born in the West would become so entrenched in a generic American culture that the child becomes "whitewashed." Newsflash-- I know plenty of purebred Indian children who would fit that description. I also know of mixed children that have been educated and regularly participate in the cultural traditions of their parent(s).

You can have all the purebred children you want, but if the most Indian culture they absorb and claim is from a Bollywood DVD, they'll have as much culture as the mixed children you fear think might not have as strong a cultural identity.

82 · khoofia said

is a source of strength to many, especially when society still works on a trust based model. it isn't what you know but the network you have that really greases machinery.

Khoofia,

I get what your saying - I think you misread me. I have no problem with people who want to preserve culture, and marry within culture/religion/race. I'm not saying having one preference is better than another. I was trying to highlight the risk of violence in the community when it comes marrying outside of ones community.

I meant to say ;

It's divisive and insulting to think she or any other "African American" has any less stake or desire in seeing America continue as "black" vs "white",or us vs them etc. to be perpetually perceived as step children in our own country.

with a billion+ people in India- I kinda doubt the culture is in danger of disappearing, however I understand there are tensions :

The outsourcing boom craved English speakers. Hole-in-the-wall "academies" from Kerala to Punjab began to sell English classes for a few dollars a week. A colonizer's language was recast in the minds of many young lower-income Indians as a language of liberation, independence and mobility. A decade hence, Indians who have achieved that mobility may struggle to understand the newspaper headlines in Mumbai in recent days. They tell of brigades of young men shattering the windows of shops and restaurants whose signs declare their names only in English, not in the regional language Marathi. The men are cadres of a political party, the Maharashtra Navnirman Sena, that has electrified a section of lower middle-class youth in this city. Many of them view English as a language of exclusion: a secret code that, having become success's prerequisite, traps millions of non-English speakers in failure. IHT

Taz said: That being said, I think it will be easier to bring home a non-desi boy if Obama is elected.
Such a personal choice- who to love, yet fraught with the political. I can say I don't judge, but If that were the case I would not feel a deeper connection, respect for Mr. Obama, becuase in his choice of a wife he embraced what has been discounted in so many ways. So I can understand comments about wanting to preserve and celebrate a shared heritage etc.

32 · jilabi said

Such a White conversation, circa 1970s.

lol, I was thinking the same thing. Taz seems to be very race concious, it's not to the point where she's mentally handicapped by it though.

Simply having a child from an Indian-Indian relationship will not instantly transfer years of culture and identity to the child. It is the environment in which the child is raised that determines his or her cultural identity.

Such great words-I could not agree more. How many Indian kids are there out there that don't know a THING about Indian culture because they have spent all of their childhood and teens trying to be anything but their parents and avoiding any and all Indian events and cultural gatherings. Only if the parents expose and insist that the culture gets passed down does it stick and the heritage remain. I do feel that one can do both and do both with ease, however, but it is a fine balence and one that takes patience and hard work. I know many children from mixed marriages that know more about the Indian culture, the Hindu religion and the customs than any of their non mixed friends-and they have no problem admitting that they are half Indian-in fact they may be more proud than the others because this makes them unique!

And dont blame the ABD kids too much - DBDs raised them.

That's true. Though I am not sure how much of the whininess comes from the raising. If the same kids were raised in Desh, they probably wouldn't whine so much. I also haven't heard of DBDs playing 'helicopter parents', that airspace is white usually.

1 · razib said

specifically as far as brown folk go, there's obviously a majority preference for "sharp" (read: west asian/european) features and lighter skin within the community. anti-black racism among brownz doesn't have a strong historical salience as it does with white southerners, lots of brown folk probably just don't want to see the "ugly" offspring. that's probably the main reason that white SOers would experience somewhat less visceral revulsion; the children would turn out more attractive by the normative standards of the brown community than they otherwise would be.

Mind you, this is coming from a dark-skinned desi with non-sharp features.

The black americans Barack Obama, Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell at al are lighter skinned (and better built) than most all desi-americans. Children of desi and afro parentage will likely be far more robust and self confident than the typical inbred desi immigrants in the west. Case in point: Kamala Harris the first female District Attorney of San Francisco.

The "sharp features" that Razib is talking about do not make desis who possess them any more attractive to non-desis. I dont see white or black or hispanic americans running after sharp-featured desis like they run after soft-featured east and southeast asian girls. Neither northern europeans nor east asians, the two dominant races in the world today, see large hooked noses as attractive. Quite the opposite. In the UK intermarriage and dating rates between the native whites and immigrant desis are far, far lower than the rates between whites and african and afro west-indian immigrants. Bottom line: desis are just not seen as physically attractive by non-desis.

Hovering, Exactly, Wah! or YesandNo - Please stick to one handle. Or else.

That goes for the rest of you as well - excessive multiple handles on threads are not tolerated in the Mutiny.

I’ve always wondered with whom my parents would cringe less with

Desi/Indian parents should grow up and respect an adult youth's decision reg. marriage/partner and strive to play a balanced, constructive, and advisory role. If they make you cringe then there is some deficiency and probably lack of communication.

Almost every time I come to this website, I am struck by what filthy small-minded racists so many of you are. It is hard to wade the muck to find whatever is an interesting read, without falling into the comments section which invariably make me disgusted.

Despite whatever educational, professional, family qualities are claimed, what comes across most truly is the depraved, racists mindsets that define who you are most of all. The desire for a familiar caste system makes many of you resent any African-American/black person who doesn't know how to accept such a caste system, even more than any who fulfills the stereotypes just as you need them to be. Because that mentality is so acceptable around you, most of you really have no idea how absolutely disgusting you are.

Given any opportunity to inflict your caste-minds on the black people of the US, you will do so, just as those like you do in Fiji, Kenya, Guyana, Trinidad, etc. Consider your family's national origins, now consider the cesspools of poverty, illiteracy, wife-burning, girl-baby killing, widow-torture and a whole roster of societal ills that aren't covered over by a few getting Visas to work in a tech firm, or a handful who carry an elite sense of entitlement in the world at the same time carrying the most depraved personal, cultural, religious values. But you don't want someone to stereotype you, right? Especially not white people - that would be racist, wouldn't it?

I was raised by good, honest people who could have never considered themselves to have raised me right, if I held such a racist, demeaning, twisted perspective. But your sickness was family inherited, so there is no such possibility for familial intervention. Is that a cultural heritage that makes you proud? You look down on African-Americans who fought to make the United States a place that was more about equality than racism, because you come from lines of people who fought and fight to maintain racist, cultural brutality and a crassness that cannot be covered over by some pretense about 'great traditions.'

Clearly your racism, the teachings of sick and racist parents, and a clear lack of intelligence, should keep most of you away from talking about history that isn't South Asian, and certainly when trying to sow division between African-Americans, blacks born in Africa, and definitely about Civil Rights, US slavery, slavery in the Americas, the Slave Trade -- particularly because there is nothing in your backgrounds that makes you understand slavery was wrong. There has never been any great intellectual, cultural awakening that would challenge this sickness -- the moral and intellectual strength represented by leaders of the Civil Rights movement (and early leadership) are not to be found and not to be tolerated in communities the height of which is stuck on being "Fair, but at least wheat."

The reality is a lot of people wouldn't want to date someone of your background because they don't want to deal with the racism or cultural deviance that elevates racism to a point of pride. Even the snarky young ones, convinced of their intellectual, academic, professional achievements are just as depraved - there isn't even any sign of moving beyond that background.

But sure, you look down on OTHERS. I guess it is important for such types of people to stereotype about black people.

Jews are the biggest example of this.

Wrong. Jewish-americans have very high intermarriage rates with non-jews.

"her accomplishments are just as real as his. Its divisive and "insulting to think she or any other "African American" has any less stake or desire in seeing America as black and white, us and them etc. to be perpetually perceived as step children in our own country. USA! indeed."

Of course. But we are not talking about Michelle, we are talking about Barak, who represents a different aspect of the "African-American" experience (which, btw, now theoretically includes North Africans as well). And btw, the Caribbean and Brazil,etc, were part of the transatlantic trade but the structure of slavery plus its length was significantly different in those areas as opposed to the US.

Back to the parental role discussion- my parents were none too thrilled when I married outside my "race," religion, and geographical region (like try another continent), but they adapted and learned to get along and value the other person. Took my siblings awhile, but hey, they married non-Italians, too- except, they were slightly lighter-skinned. and I adjusted...

it works for some and for others not. I guess you have to figure out which one you are and deal with it.

95 · Liz said

The reality is a lot of people wouldn't want to date someone of your background because they don't want to deal with the racism or cultural deviance that elevates racism to a point of pride. Even the snarky young ones, convinced of their intellectual, academic, professional achievements are just as depraved - there isn't even any sign of moving beyond that background

Liz, hope this doesn't come off as condescendingly humorous, but I clearly see that you are probably slightly frustrated. So I recommend u the following wesbites ;)

THE RIGHT STUFF—Date fellow graduates and faculty of the Ivies, Stanford, and a few other excellent schools. www.rightstuffdating.com;
GreenSingles.com— Meet single book lovers who value green living, natural health, personal growth, spirituality

95 · Liz said

Almost every time I come to this website, I am struck by what filthy small-minded racists so many of you are. It is hard to wade the muck to find whatever is an interesting read, without falling into the comments section which invariably make me disgusted.

Despite whatever educational, professional, family qualities are claimed, what comes across most truly is the depraved, racists mindsets that define who you are most of all. The desire for a familiar caste system makes many of you resent any African-American/black person who doesn't know how to accept such a caste system, even more than any who fulfills the stereotypes just as you need them to be. Because that mentality is so acceptable around you, most of you really have no idea how absolutely disgusting you are.

Given any opportunity to inflict your caste-minds on the black people of the US, you will do so, just as those like you do in Fiji, Kenya, Guyana, Trinidad, etc. Consider your family's national origins, now consider the cesspools of poverty, illiteracy, wife-burning, girl-baby killing, widow-torture and a whole roster of societal ills that aren't covered over by a few getting Visas to work in a tech firm, or a handful who carry an elite sense of entitlement in the world at the same time carrying the most depraved personal, cultural, religious values. But you don't want someone to stereotype you, right? Especially not white people - that would be racist, wouldn't it?

I was raised by good, honest people who could have never considered themselves to have raised me right, if I held such a racist, demeaning, twisted perspective. But your sickness was family inherited, so there is no such possibility for familial intervention. Is that a cultural heritage that makes you proud? You look down on African-Americans who fought to make the United States a place that was more about equality than racism, because you come from lines of people who fought and fight to maintain racist, cultural brutality and a crassness that cannot be covered over by some pretense about 'great traditions.'

Clearly your racism, the teachings of sick and racist parents, and a clear lack of intelligence, should keep most of you away from talking about history that isn't South Asian, and certainly when trying to sow division between African-Americans, blacks born in Africa, and definitely about Civil Rights, US slavery, slavery in the Americas, the Slave Trade -- particularly because there is nothing in your backgrounds that makes you understand slavery was wrong. There has never been any great intellectual, cultural awakening that would challenge this sickness -- the moral and intellectual strength represented by leaders of the Civil Rights movement (and early leadership) are not to be found and not to be tolerated in communities the height of which is stuck on being "Fair, but at least wheat."

The reality is a lot of people wouldn't want to date someone of your background because they don't want to deal with the racism or cultural deviance that elevates racism to a point of pride. Even the snarky young ones, convinced of their intellectual, academic, professional achievements are just as depraved - there isn't even any sign of moving beyond that background.

But sure, you look down on OTHERS. I guess it is important for such types of people to stereotype about black people.

Yes you are so open minded, accepting, yummy goodness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright_controversy

Such a personal choice- who to love, yet fraught with the political. I can say I don't judge, but If that were the case I would not feel a deeper connection, respect for Mr. Obama, becuase in his choice of a wife he embraced what has been discounted in so many ways.

Word. I'm happy Obama chose a dark skinned black woman who doesn't have stereotypically white facial features. Look, I know love is complicated and I try not to judge but it's hard when I see successful black men find wives who look like this and this.

73 · GetOfMyLawn! said

I think ABD offsprings seriously misunderstand the value of appreciating one's own culture.........Don't forget that the very values that many ABDs knock are the ones that have allowed South Asians (and Asians in general) to be the most successful minority in the West. Emphasizing family structure, respect for elders, respect for education, respect for one's body and sexuality and emotions, and above all, respect for the collective community rather than the individual are all why Asians can come from the poorest of regions during the worse of times (Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, Bangladesh) and have their children in graduate schools within one generation.

This is the usual ignorant, irrational and self-serving nonsense. If desi culture is what makes desis successful in western nations then explain why that same culture performs so miserably in India, Bangladesh etc? Shouldn't desi culture be blamed for India being home to most of the world's hungry people, most of the child slaves in the world, most of the people without access to sanitation facilities or clean drinking water, while being home to most of the world's desis???

Secondly, I have read that immigrants from Africa are more highly educated than white or asian americans. Africa isn't that much better off than South Asia. Just being an immigrant in America seems to bring out the best at least among the first generation immigrants.

If you feel that you want to date out of your race, then have the strength of character to openly date that person. If your parents are immigrants, think about it: they LEFT their home country to start new in an unfamiliar nation. They probably put in 12-14 hour days to feed and shelter you. They probably always had a warm meal for you and were probably around for you when you needed them. Your fathers probably never got all misty about existentialism and walked out the door because he needed to find himself. He probably hated his job, and stayed in, day in and day out so that you can have a better life. Your mother probably missed out on a career or gave up a family to brave a new world comparatively alone, and she probably still was always there to help you with your homework. Do you think you can show that level of commitment and courage? If so, have the guts to date whoever you want openly, instead of secretly, but only with courage to whine on a blog.

Seriously, a little self awareness and a little more introspection cannot hurt.

That last part is hardly a way to make a convincing logical argument to me, although I see you are making some kind of an emotional argument there. More precisely, what does the fact that xyz's parents went through relative hardship have anything to do with who/how xyz dates, etc.?

If you argue that dating outside the race degrades the family value, etc. that's an argument you make, and one can argue on it. But I feel that alluding to parents' hardship is a red herring in the debate. Of course, as a rule in general, life of older generations looks much harder in retrospect. Taking things to an extreme, the life of even a wealthy person in the middle ages would have been much harder than the average person's life now, and the life of a caveman was a million times more difficult than the middle age people's. Just as the hardship of somoene's immigrant parents enabled your good education and growth, one could similarly argue that the hard work of all our previous generation ancestors eventually led to where we are now. If they all sat on their asses and were content to live their lives hunting and farming, that's what we would be doing too. But this doesn't imply anything about the relative merits of ways of life, etc. Cultures, society, attitudes and the world in general changes over time, and we all should learn to accept (and even embrace) that.

I just wrote the above analogy to make it easier to highlight why I don't find your argument so compelling. I guess ABD's might hesitate to call you out on your impressively presented argument, out of respect to their own parents, but I have no such stake as I'm presumably just a younger version of you right now***(immigrant grad student). (so that disarms you from trying to picture me as some imaginary stereotypical ungrateful ABD kid with no respect for elders)

***- although, I agree your generation probably faced an order of magnitude more hardship than the current one w.r.t. moving to a different country, etc. blah blah.

Sorry, with a PHD, married to a PHD, with a very good job. Not frustrated, not racist, just find racism disgusting -- sorry, I know that is hard for many here to understand, given that it is a big part of how many of you see the world.

If they all sat on their asses and were content to live their lives hunting and farming, that's what we would be doing too.

Well, I was rereading my comment and wanted to add something... actually that's kind of exactly what happened for tens of thousands of years I guess - until a few thousands back.... we just hit the jackpot to be born in this age. And its perfectly plausible that, in retrospect a 1000 years from now when people don't simply grow old and die naturally anymore, even our current way of life would seem absolutely barbaric - "a time when people used to simply live a few years and then die of random diseases and frailty"....
thats just the way things are!

family structure, respect for elders, respect for education, respect for one's body and sexuality and emotions, and above all, respect for the collective community rather than the individual

family structure = don't air dirty laundry, even if it's tearing the family apart; also make sure you go into a profession, choose a mate etc that reflects well on the family

respect for elders = even if they have done little or nothing to earn it and might be the most ignorant and malicious people you know

respect for education = prestige and earning power, baybee; flip side is the pressure South Asian parents put on their kids to overachieve and pursue certain acceptable jobs

respect for one's body etc = I don't even know where to start

respect for the collective community rather than the individual = caring more about people might think rather than doing what is best for me and mine

95 · Liz said

Almost every time I come to this website, I am struck by what filthy small-minded racists so many of you are. It is hard to wade the muck to find whatever is an interesting read, without falling into the comments section which invariably make me disgusted. Despite whatever educational, professional, family qualities are claimed, what comes across most truly is the depraved, racists mindsets that define who you are most of all. The desire for a familiar caste system makes many of you resent any African-American/black person who doesn't know how to accept such a caste system, even more than any who fulfills the stereotypes just as you need them to be. Because that mentality is so acceptable around you, most of you really have no idea how absolutely disgusting you are. Given any opportunity to inflict your caste-minds on the black people of the US, you will do so, just as those like you do in Fiji, Kenya, Guyana, Trinidad, etc. Consider your family's national origins, now consider the cesspools of poverty, illiteracy, wife-burning, girl-baby killing, widow-torture and a whole roster of societal ills that aren't covered over by a few getting Visas to work in a tech firm, or a handful who carry an elite sense of entitlement in the world at the same time carrying the most depraved personal, cultural, religious values. But you don't want someone to stereotype you, right? Especially not white people - that would be racist, wouldn't it?

Much truth in what you wrote Liz. Besides in Fiji, Africa and the West Indies, Indians and other desis aren't well liked in Europe, the Middle-East, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong etc either. Many of the desi racists here who try to pump each other up with delusions of grandeur (high SES, model minority, some indian-americans making it big) are living in a fool's paradise. Desis are the most vulnerable minority in America, and probably everywhere. As the economy shrinks desis will likely be the first to lose their jobs or their businesses, being the most alien of all immigrants in looks, culture and religion.

But you don't want someone to stereotype you, right? Especially not white people - that would be racist, wouldn't it?

I totally welcome stereotyping, and always assume it, makes it a lot easier for me to get on with my business. And I always stereotype back, helps cut down on the number of conversations I need to make, and the number of people I need to talk to. It is a great tool to cut cognitive overload.

Desis are the most vulnerable minority in America, and probably everywhere. As the economy shrinks desis will likely be the first to lose their jobs or their businesses, being the most alien of all immigrants in looks, culture and religion.

Dude, why do you guys need to bash desis as a whole in order to criticize desi racists? Stop being so bitter for heaven's sake!

It is a great tool to cut cognitive overload.

Whats the point of avoiding bounding your cognitive load when what you are loading it with is complete crap and gives mostly wrong ideas?

95 · Liz Clearly your racism, the teachings of sick and racist parents, and a clear lack of intelligence, should keep most of you away from talking about history that isn't South Asian, and certainly when trying to sow division between African-Americans, blacks born in Africa, and definitely about Civil Rights, US slavery, slavery in the Americas, the Slave Trade -- particularly because there is nothing in your backgrounds that makes you understand slavery was wrong. There has never been any great intellectual, cultural awakening that would challenge this sickness -- the moral and intellectual strength represented by leaders of the Civil Rights movement (and early leadership) are not to be found and not to be tolerated in communities the height of which is stuck on being "Fair, but at least wheat."

105 · Lurker said

family structure, respect for elders, respect for education, respect for one's body and sexuality and emotions, and above all, respect for the collective community rather than the individual

family structure = don't air dirty laundry, even if it's tearing the family apart; also make sure you go into a profession, choose a mate etc that reflects well on the family

respect for elders = even if they have done little or nothing to earn it and might be the most ignorant and malicious people you know

respect for education = prestige and earning power, baybee; flip side is the pressure South Asian parents put on their kids to overachieve and pursue certain acceptable jobs

respect for one's body etc = I don't even know where to start

respect for the collective community rather than the individual = caring more about people might think rather than doing what is best for me and mine

And here we find the crux of the matter.

To paraphrase the economist John Kenneth Galbraith put it, "The modern Desi is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

But in this case, it's not selfishness for material greed. It's a selfishness that puts the self above the community/family/etc.

Boy, this went downhill fast.

they probably even KNOW what the sepoy mutiny was all about

They know about it, but probably not the details. If they knew, this blog wouldn't have this name! :) I should add that the name is rather prescient! :)

114 · Dallas said

Boy, this went downhill fast.

Please BEHAVE. No attacks, no racist, abusive, illiterate comments. I'd like to keep this thread open at least till Monday. Any more offensive comments will be deleted.

Emancipation from the bondage of the soil is no freedom for the tree

Well quoted. And a good place to end for tonight.

I have no clue what I said that was offensive enough to merit deletion. But whatever.

To reiterate. I am personally offended by the idea that the only way to be an enlightened member of modern society is to adhere to norms and practices that will, in the long-run, lead to the dissolution of the traditions and culture that I consider important. Some people might like the notion of all of us living in some homogenized melting pot where there are no differences between people, but I would consider such a world boring and thoroughly unappealing.
I like the idea of having my own culture. I like the idea that other people have cultures of their own that make them substantially different from me in ways that have nothing to do with socio-economic status. Variety is the spice of life and I take umbrage at the suggestion that wanting to hold onto my own culture makes me a racist.

This consumerist mentality that leads us to think of life as being just some buffet of choices which we are supposed to pick from to maximize our personal utility is, frankly, dehumanizing. Part of what makes us human is the fact that we are often burdened with obligations that we have forced upon us. Melancholy is a fact of life.
But somehow this overindulgence in political correctness has managed to do what wave after wave of foreign invaders and colonialists could not. It made otherwise right thinking people act to undermine their own cultures and pat themselves on the back for doing so. Macaulay would be proud.

I'll repeat the Tagore quote I mentioned before. Emancipation from the bondage of the soil is no freedom for the tree.

The fact that India, Bangladesh, etc., are where they are a mere 60+ years after independence is pretty damn amazing.

That is so pitifully delusional. Have you actually been to India and Bangladesh? Its amazing all right, albeit in a horrifying way. Most foreigners who do go there are absolutely shocked by the filth, hunger, poverty and dehumanizing living conditions.

What asian countries like China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore etc have accomplished in the past few decades is whats amazing. The desi nations of the subcontinent are all failed states by comparison. What do you blame for that if not desi culture?

117 · NaraVara said

I'll repeat the Tagore quote I mentioned before. Emancipation from the bondage of the soil is no freedom for the tree.

I have one word for you son. Hydroponics.

You had to know THIS would be a hot topic!

Desis have alot in common with Africans (not the American kind). In both desh and Africa family lineage and ancestry is very important, there is little divorce and when there is, it is deemed shameful, the families are close knit, the marriages are arranged or assisted, the list goes on. Yeah, the desi obsession with color (fair and lovely/handsome) needs to be tweaked but other than that, I find desis as a whole to be good examples to occidentals when in their countries; work ethic, family values, etc. They sometimes come off as arrogant or proud to people who don't share the same ethics and values but so what? Basically desi parents want their children to associate with the children of other parents who share the same values. Nothing wrong with that. There is so much negative influence for kids to come under out there nowadays that a little discipline and selectivity in choosing friends can't hurt. I know I don't want my kids to grow up thinking it's ok to have 4 kids by four different daddies or mommas. No thank you. But hey, that's just me and anyone else is free to teach their kids whatever they like. Not that we criticize such people, but we are not obliged to be friends with them either.

Wah! You know there's a white singer with a white turban by the name of WAH! (with the exclamation mark)? She's a Yogi Bhajan disciple.

In both desh and Africa family lineage and ancestry is very important, there is little divorce and when there is, it is deemed shameful, the families are close knit, the marriages are arranged or assisted, the list goes on.

uh, africa is a whole continent. how can you generalize about africa like this? india is pretty culturally diverse, but nothing like africa.

Wow, I am amazed by the cess pool of ignorance that some of the comments have become. I honestly don't know why I'm even responding, but to continue my procrastinating ways i'm going to attempt to address some issues here:

1. using preservation of Indian culture as a reason for not dating outside of the race, especially as an effective strategy for culture preservation in the midst foreign invasion : The idea that "indian culture" hase been preserved and remained static despite foreign invasion is just untenable. Firstly, like any half-educated social scientist will tell you, culture is not static, but is dynamic! You think "indian" culture remained the same for the last 400 years or more? haha thats kinda what all colonizers though of their subjects (including desi ones- remeber south asia was colonized?), the idea being that with colonization these formerly "static" cultures would "modernize." Cultural preservation is such a myth - besides one would think that with over a billion indians on this planet (most of whom cant even get along with each other), cultural preservation is probably the last concern lol.

2: Quoting NaraVara"This consumerist mentality that leads us to think of life as being just some buffet of choices which we are supposed to pick from to maximize our personal utility is, frankly, dehumanizing. Part of what makes us human is the fact that we are often burdened with obligations that we have forced upon us. Melancholy is a fact of life" : How depressing! Also, what is this idea that "life is a buffet of choices?" So picking someone not of your own ethnicity is being consumerist , but picking one indian person from the "buffet" of half a billion choices isn't treating life as a buffet (albeit with fewer choices). Thats just a bad deal haha Maybe what isnt dehumanizing is picking someone you can actually have a good relationship with, without labeling them with the brand of ethnic identity.

As for obligations , we all choose our own - if you feel obliged to marry or date an indian (not even any indian i'll bet - considering the need to "preserve" caste/ethnicity/class/religion etc etc) for the sake if ensuring the continuity of "indian culture" go right ahead.

and also, what is this monolithic Indian culture that we're speak of? As a DBD, I have seen way too many versions of "indian culture" in South Asia and the diaspora. typically, this is the normative north indian, hindu - brahman variety, that so many Hindu fundamentalist groups in India are now prescribing as "original Indian culture." and lets not even begin to talk about how problematic any version of monolithic "Indian" culture is.

3. The attribution of desi success in the US to their "culture" : You've got to be kidding me! This has nothing to do with culture, and more to do with patterns of immigration to the US. Wikipedia the "Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965" and know that this act basically allowed for more immigration from south asia and other parts of the third world for mostly skilled, highly educated workers.

4. Holding on to your own culture: Thats just a game lost before the dice are rolled: see comment on culture not being static.

Taz- thanks for pointing out the violence and why this isn't a "whiny ABD" issue .

what does look like a whiny ABD issue is this whole idea of "lets hold on to our culture in this big bad land of Amrika." Culture isnt a fossil.

I could go on forever, but I'm going to go back to actually reading something educational.

Hovering, Exactly, Wah! or YesandNo - Please stick to one handle. Or else.

i thought that creature macacaroach/prema/whatever the new handle was banned anyhow?

Culture not being static does not mean that moving towards homogenization with something else is a good thing, nor does it mean that dynamic cultural shifts don't retain some connection with their original roots. The entire point is to keep in touch with those roots instead of progressively letting them be ignored.

The life being a buffet of choices thing is a reference to people taking their familial and cultural obligations lightly. "Don't like your parents? Just go ahead and spurn them instead of letting them harsh your mellow." That's the consumerism. It's individuality taken to the extreme where it starts to approach selfishness.

I don't remember ever saying there was a monolithic Indian culture. All I said was that working to retain one's cultural identity and intending to pass it on to the next generation is a good thing. And trying to label people who feel that way as "backwards," "regressive," or "racist" is exactly the kind of homogenizing, Westernizing influence that would have made Macaulay proud.

And the complaints about "violence" being prevalent in this community I'd say are largely attempts to backtrack to justify why it isn't whiny. We can go citing anecdotes all day but that doesn't mean they're the norm. Can most of the people here legitimately say that they fear that their parents will put a hit out on their chosen mate? Domestic violence may be an issue, but I guarantee that it is not what motivates most people to write blog posts about interracial dating.

Quick fact check since I have other things to do:

1. I'm not an ABD. actually a DBD, born and brought up in India. I know where my roots are, thanks for being concerned.

2. My relationship isnt a secret.

3. I dont hate my parents, not even close. And as for self- hating, far from it. I just dont have the same narrow conceptions as some people on this forum.

Also, the only reason to point to wiki was so that some people on here could have something to refer to, even if most basic. My knowledge of Asian immigration in the US actually comes from an Ivy league, south asian studies graduate department in this country. but thats not even the point. I dont have anything to justify here - was just trying to have a non-personal conversation with supposedly intelligent desis.

I am looking for an article I read sometime around last Christmas, but I can't find it so I'll try to summarize it as best I can.

It was written by a Jewish columnist about Channukah. He talks a lot about the Maccabees and how they were such hardline, orthodox people. When Antiochus of the Seleucids forbade the practice of Judaism the Maccabees revolted. They not only revolted against the Seleucids, they did some pretty questionable stuff against their fellow Judeans as well which included stoning of Jews who turned their backs on their culture.

Most Jews today would be a little uncomfortable about some of the less tolerant actions that the Maccabees perpetrated (and they should be). But the fact remains that if not for what they did, there would be no such thing as Judaism today.

Just some food for thought in a discussion about the merits of acculturation and/or assimilation. How far should we be willing to go in the pursuit of retaining our own identity? I would assume that anyone who self-identifies by their Indian background enough to post on a blog about it might see some merit to the notion of retaining some sense of cultural identity, but what is the merit that drives us to it?

Unlike other ethnicities, there's not a cultural bond, tradition or a "heritage" in Black Americans, to collectively ignore an entire race of people, just for the heck of it, or for "cultural" reasons

127 · Wow! said

Unlike other ethnicities, there's not a cultural bond, tradition or a "heritage" in Black Americans, to collectively ignore an entire race of people, just for the heck of it, or for "cultural" reasons

This simply is not true. African Americans DO have a distinct culture as a people and many of them are against interracial marriages for the same reasons some desis above have defended: culture, customs and traditions.

I don't think I've ever heard the words "culture," "customs," or "traditions" used. But usually when I hear my friends talk about it they grope towards the same idea. Eligible black guys/girls who date outside aren't usually regarded all that well.
But to be perfectly honest. As bad as the bellyaching about the lack of decent Indian guys is among Desi girls, if you want to really get an earful spend an evening with a circle of 4 or 5 young, professional Black women.

I don't remember ever saying there was a monolithic Indian culture. All I said was that working to retain one's cultural identity and intending to pass it on to the next generation is a good thing. And trying to label people who feel that way as "backwards," "regressive," or "racist" is exactly the kind of homogenizing, Westernizing influence that would have made Macaulay proud

The life being a buffet of choices thing is a reference to people taking their familial and cultural obligations lightly. "Don't like your parents? Just go ahead and spurn them instead of letting them harsh your mellow." That's the consumerism. It's individuality taken to the extreme where it starts to approach selfishness.

Natavara, while there is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve one's culture to the greatest extent possible, when one reaches adulthood whom they choose to marry is their choice, not their parents'. The parents are more than likely dead and gone before their kids' marriages have even reached the halfway point. We are the ones who have to wake up daily with our choice, not our parents, unless of course one of the traditions you are in favor of preserving is bringing your bride home to live with her in-laws. This is where one of the greatest strengths of desi culture, it's family bonds, becomes it's weakness. And because desi culture is largely focused around religion, it is possible to find non desi Hindus and Sikhs who are more religious and traditional than desi Hindus and Sikhs. Such non desi Hindus and Sikhs may preserve and pass on the Hindu and Sikh traditions to your offspring more efficiently than a desi Hindu or Sikh would. Now I'm not saying that you should run out and find yourself a non desi spouse who practices a desi religion, I'm just saying don't discount them.

It was written by a Jewish columnist about Channukah. He talks a lot about the Maccabees and how they were such hardline, orthodox people. When Antiochus of the Seleucids forbade the practice of Judaism the Maccabees revolted. They not only revolted against the Seleucids, they did some pretty questionable stuff against their fellow Judeans as well which included stoning of Jews who turned their backs on their culture.

Most Jews today would be a little uncomfortable about some of the less tolerant actions that the Maccabees perpetrated (and they should be). But the fact remains that if not for what they did, there would be no such thing as Judaism today.

Just some food for thought in a discussion about the merits of acculturation and/or assimilation. How far should we be willing to go in the pursuit of retaining our own identity? I would assume that anyone who self-identifies by their Indian background enough to post on a blog about it might see some merit to the notion of retaining some sense of cultural identity, but what is the merit that drives us to it?

Yeah, and then you've got the Parsees who are dying out precisely because of their lack of acculturation, assimilation, and lack of inter-whatever marrying. The offspring of Parsee women who marry non Parsee men are not counted as Parsees, even if the husbands convert (not really a custom amongst Parsees but should be)and the children are raised with Parsee customs in the home. There's got to be a limit to this type of thinking otherwise cultures will die out for the opposite reasons to those Natavara is giving.

#97 Of course. But we are not talking about Michelle, we are talking about Barak, who represents a different aspect of the "African-American" experience aspect of the "African-American" experience (which, btw, now theoretically includes North Africans as well)

ummm I think its safe to say, Taz, & everyone else realize that Barack is married. I read the part of the post that said: will it be more acceptable for me to bring home a black man? I'm happy for any one that will feel empowered, inspired by a Black POTUS. However I stand by my comment that those, like yourself, who feel it neccessary to parse out the percentage of whiteness,degrees of connection to Africa etc to differentiate Barack- from those other black Americans who produced Ivy educated Michelle, are no better than anyone else who needs to catagorically dismiss blacks out of hand on the basis of race. ... he's acceptable if you "de-blackify" him. Who knew Kenyan's were N. African's, or that Morrocan/Libyan/Egyptian Americans generically self id as "African Americans". I've met (black) Nigerians, Ethopians etc who don't do that.

#100 Word. I'm happy Obama chose a dark skinned black woman who doesn't have stereotypically white facial features.

For all my "preaching" I think we are on the cusp of a change, I trust, going forward that a choice of a mate for a person of Afro American lineage is as free of historical considerations of context,oppression etc, as a choice of a career,political affiliation etc.

shalom

119 · Wow! said

I find desis as a whole to be good examples to occidentals when in their countries; work ethic, family values, etc.

I think many of these erudite commenters are confused by their experiences in the big city. Real Americans with Small Town Values are Patriotic and Hard Working. In fact, I have found that a good guide to arriving at the right decision when I am at a particularly confounding crossroads is to ask myself: What would Sarah Palin do? All ye desis, rock your go-go boots and fell a moose, and you will find that you too can replace uncertainty and angst with a feeling of supreme confidence, without ever going through that torturous process of information gathering.

38 · Manju said

we live in interesting times.

Yep, at the point Jews are supporting Hitler, and the catastrophic failure of experiments in laissez-faire capitalism are making Greenspan roll over in his grave, you know that things are indeed really weird.

he's acceptable if you "de-blackify" him.

catastrophic failure of experiments in laissez-faire capitalism are making Greenspan roll over in his grave

This simply is not true. African Americans DO have a distinct culture as a people and many of them are against interracial marriages for the same reasons some desis above have defended: culture, customs and traditions.

in fact, African American women usually have their head on straight and arent misled by the Eurocentric environment that we all live in.

Ask the question, when a "low caste" person achieves political office in India, does that somehow make them more marryable in the eyes of every day society? no. not at all.

121 · desiwoman said

Cultural preservation is such a myth - besides one would think that with over a billion indians on this planet (most of whom cant even get along with each other), cultural preservation is probably the last concern lol.

I don't think the issue inter-racial marriage is about cultural preservation but more about anxiety of losing what you consider positive and familiar and adopting new ways of leading a family/social life, different from what you have grown up with. Love is sometimes indeed blind.

123 · NaraVara said

Culture not being static does not mean that moving towards homogenization with something else is a good thing, nor does it mean that dynamic cultural shifts don't retain some connection with their original roots. The entire point is to keep in touch with those roots instead of progressively letting them be ignored

Btw since many are throwing culture and tradition generously. Let me try to first define desi/south-asian culture in the US context in attempt to understand/discuss the Desi Bradley effect ? (a) Visiting temples/gurdwaras/mosques/churches (b) Learning some south-asian dance, song or art form (c) fan of Bollywood (d) Celebrating desi festivals and wearing south-asian dress for festivals/parties etc. (e) Discussing south-asian politics and relevance to US policies or desi immigrants (f) desi traditional or mixed style marriage.

I think all this can be done even if you have non-desi partner. So the desi parents concern about inter-racial marriage seem to be just nothing but crocodile tears.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the post wasn't about general desi reluctance for out-marriage, but a differential racial bias in this behavior. I have no idea what a prime directive for cultural preservation, or the soul-crushing nature of a world buffet dominated by Starbucks baristas rather than soup nazis, has to do with that point.

Although I will just note that the FDR presidency didn't create an epidemic of polio inflicted grooms...

epidemic of polio inflicted grooms...

afflicted, not inflicted.

137 · Rahul said

Correct me if I am wrong, but the post wasn't about general desi reluctance for out-marriage, but a differential racial bias in this behavior

If by differential racial bias you are referring to whether non-african american non-desis will be more preferable to Indian/desi parents than african-american then the crux of desi concern is probably (a) fairness (b) socio-economic standing and less to do with cultural preservation . I gather the latter is definitely negated by Obama's candidature. As to the former, I guess that depends on the level of prejudice that is inherent in the minds of desi parents. To couch those concerns (a,b) in terms of cultural preservation is itself a Bradley effect.

139 · Brigette Gabriel said

To couch those concerns (a,b) in terms of cultural preservation is itself a Bradley effect.

No, a Bradley effect would be when one lies about one's racial preferences because it would be socially unacceptable to do otherwise. In this context, it would be a claim that outmarriage is acceptable, when asked in the abstract, because it would be socially unacceptable to claim otherwise (Of course, this analogy is heavily flawed because the actual expressing of one's biases in the voting case is still hidden from society, whereas the same is not necessarily in the case of groom choice).

If there is a socially acceptable rationalization for one's biases (in fact, many claim that this is the case for Obama-McCain, where even if the subliminal reason is racism, the person can give socially acceptable reasons based on "socialism" or some other figleaf), then there is no reason to hide that bias, and hence the Bradley effect does not exist.

7 · Mr.Singh said

Desis including myself are going to vote for Obama not because he is black, but because he is not Mccain/Republican, his policies etc. Who in their right mind think that Obama is your typical black male? Seriously! He distants himself from the typical black people. How many kids out of wedlock does he have? None! He got the best swagger? Maybe! He would have never gotten the nomination if he wasn't part of the white aspirations. He is just the black version of the American dream. But he is not the African American dream! I know a lot of black people who are voting for Obama just because he is black. They don't care about his policies or experience. It's part of the black reparations for them. They think that Obama is one of their homie. Alot of them are not voting for him because they believe America is not ready for black president. So If you are going by this article,I guess if you vote for Obama you are going to like Rap music. This country is going to crapper but who cares black people will get more booty because there is a black president.

135 · Brigette Gabriel said

121 · desiwoman said

Cultural preservation is such a myth - besides one would think that with over a billion indians on this planet (most of whom cant even get along with each other), cultural preservation is probably the last concern lol.

I don't think the issue inter-racial marriage is about cultural preservation but more about anxiety of losing what you consider positive and familiar and adopting new ways of leading a family/social life, different from what you have grown up with. Love is sometimes indeed blind.

See posts 67, 116, 73 where part of the comments clearly point to a need for cultural preservation, or protecting cultural lineage. Also "anxiety of losing what you consider positive and familiar and adopting new ways of leading a family/social life, different from what you have grown up with" is something that even people who marry within the community have to deal with - not just interracial marriages. As you say in your other post, marrying interracially doesnt mean that all your cultural values get thrown out of the window, or that somehow desi children born of 2 desi parents are more likely to hold on to the same culture, more than mixed ones.

137 · Rahul said

Correct me if I am wrong, but the post wasn't about general desi reluctance for out-marriage, but a differential racial bias in this behavior. I have no idea what a prime directive for cultural preservation, or the soul-crushing nature of a world buffet dominated by Starbucks baristas rather than soup nazis, has to do with that point.

Exactly! The way the comments on this post have gone clearly are part of larger trends in the US when talking about race. Since now a lot of people claim to be color-blind, the talk about race has become increasingly couched under "cultural" terms. Also, some white people increasingly use cultural metaphors to talk about race.

But let's face it - desi interracial marriage does exist, whatever its merits or lack thereof maybe. So as far as desi interracial marriage goes, on average how many desis do you see with white people? and how many do you see with other groups, particularly black people? Let's stop pretending as though there isn't a clear bias. Perhaps some more of that self-awareness and introspection that we're all so concerned about?

African American 'culture' did not create Barack Obama. He was raised by non-black family members and they instilled their values on him. It's those values that made him what he's today.

All this discussion about "preserving culture" is besides the point. How much "Desi Culture" does the average ABD have on offer for preservation anyway?

I personally think Indian parents should just follow the White model, and kick the kids out after 18, and let them mind their own business. The kids seem to be pining for it, so just give them what they want. That way, they wouldn't wait for Da Messiah to solve their problems for them. Would also lower the level of handwringing a lot, on both sides.

145 · Wah! said

I personally think Indian parents should just follow the White model, and kick the kids out after 18, and let them mind their own business. The kids seem to be pining for it, so just give them what they want

Very true. Instill American individualism and independence with respect to personal life issues. Then all problems will take care of itself. If the kids still want some exposure to desi culture how about taking an internship or temporary job in India or make friends with "cultured" DBDs or join South-Asian studies program in univs ?

I personally think Indian parents should just follow the White model, and kick the kids out after 18, and let them mind their own business. The kids seem to be pining for it, so just give them what they want

Funny. But this is one of those cultural aspects that desis seek to preserve, the elderly generation anyway, and they have their reasons for that. You see, I do think that alot of desi elders resistance to interracial coupling is in cultural. When they look around the United States or Canada or the UK and the see to what extent whites and blacks and latinos marry, divorce, remarry, or just shack up, or not even shack up but get pregnant by various men or impregnate various women, well they don't want the same for themselves and their tribe. Can you blame them? The contemporary west does not exactly have a good track record with stable family life and I don't see it getting any better, no matter how many desis they date or try to marry. There are also other aspects of desi living that someone else mentioned above would just be too time consuming and harrowing to walk a nondesi partner through and try to incalculate them with in order for them to be accepted by the wider desi family. Can it work? I've seen a few, very few. But most of the couples I know who tried have gone the traditional western route and divorced which in turn brought much pain and shame to the desi family, what to speak of "see, I told you so's" to the desi individual who tried. Is it worth it? Can we not find mates from our own background? Have they become so rare, exclusive, hard to get or picky? This kind of flies in the face of what I wrote above about nondesi Hindus and Sikhs but now that I've given it more thought, even though they may be practicing Hinduism or Sikhism more than we are, chances are they come from a broken family if they are American, Canadian or British or western European. Western peoples' idea of marriage is very different from ours.

African American 'culture' did not create Barack Obama. He was raised by non-black family members and they instilled their values on him. It's those values that made him what he's today.

Thanks Musiq, what about his children, I think his mother in law has been heavily involved in rearing them,Just as she and her husband raised Michelle and her brother. (From the looks of it they are successful African Americans) what 'culture' do they have? If the Obama children turn out successful, can they claim to be authentically African American? how many more generations do you think it will take before black Americans can be ameicans? or any other words- when will your use of english, deordorant, knives and forks stop being "white" behavior?

147 · Wow! said

Have they become so rare, exclusive, hard to get or picky

Taking a cue from sciences - collision frequncy is proportional to density. Unless you live in big cities (or maybe in a univ) with ample number (and places) of desis to meet you are hardly going to see a desi single souls for miles. Then the entire compatibilty game that plays out independent of race. So it is better and easier to broaden the pool and be open and not look at racial issues wrt marriage as a zero sum game.

Wow#147 >>When they look around the United States or Canada or the UK and the see to what extent whites and blacks and latinos marry, divorce, remarry, or just shack up, or not even shack up but get pregnant by various men or impregnate various women

You mean, to what extent they give "it" to each other on credit, ie, betting their body on future return on equity? Don't worry - it will all come to a crashing end with a decade. The process is well underway for the last six months.

>>The contemporary west does not exactly have a good track record with stable family life and I don't see it getting any better

The contemporary west has lifestyles that were an offshore of easy, plentiful credit and a stable economic environment. Both these will now go the way of folklore that grandparents wistfully talk about with their grandchildren ("When I bought a house fifty years ago, I paid down only 10%, after which I quickly turned around and took a home-equity loan to buy a plasma TV").

>>kick the kids out after 18, and let them mind their own business.

Without recourse to credit cards, student loans or loans of any other type, how will kids eat?(18 year olds eat a LOT!)

This entire economic crisis will be a victory for the traditionalists.

M. Nam

The contemporary west has lifestyles that were an offshore offshoot of easy, plentiful credit and ...

M. Nam

147 · Wow! said

Western peoples' idea of marriage is very different from ours.

Please can you clarify what is the difference between "western" and desi idea of marriage ? Working husband and/or wife (desis or non-desis ) in america pretty much do the similar(if not same) thing in terms of socio-cultural and family life. The only things is that if both parties want to strongly adhere to their cultural things you will have to two different things to choose from in your daily planner and scheduling. Increased financial independence is leading to broken families even amongst desis (and is also on the rise in Indian urban centers)

Interesting post...much more so as I have several family members who have/in the process of dating/married those from the "do no marry" list. In the married case, a distant cousin (Hindu) raised in UK married a man (Muslim) from India. Initially the families were not very excited, but decided that as long as she was happy, they would support. Now they have three beautiful daughters. :) I also have a cousin (Hindu) dating a wonderful man (African American)...the jury is out on what will happen. We think they'll get married. The parents aren't too keen on this (per her mom its b/c he's not educated as she is (she's a doc, he's a journalist)...but he is a GREAT guy and hopefully she'll come around as well. Right now she's so worried about what everyone else will think of her as a mother....and then there is a good friend super attracted to her "soul" mate ...only one problem for both of them, he's Muslim, she's Hindu. Both don't want to pursue the relationship due to the religious diff..but who knows how they're story will end.
Now that I read this...my family has a lot of mini Bollywood stories within it...

146 · Brigette Gabriel said

145 · Wah! said

I personally think Indian parents should just follow the White model, and kick the kids out after 18, and let them mind their own business. The kids seem to be pining for it, so just give them what they want

Very true. Instill American individualism and independence with respect to personal life issues. Then all problems will take care of itself. If the kids still want some exposure to desi culture how about taking an internship or temporary job in India or make friends with "cultured" DBDs or join South-Asian studies program in univs ?

I'm sorry, but who are you to tell Indian parents how to raise their kids? I'm proud of my Indian heritage and Hindu faith. Who in world would want mutt children anyway? I'm not ready to throw my kids off into the deep end of American multiculturalism.

123 · NaraVara said

All I said was that working to retain one's cultural identity and intending to pass it on to the next generation is a good thing. And trying to label people who feel that way as "backwards," "regressive," or "racist" is exactly the kind of homogenizing, Westernizing influence that would have made Macaulay proud.

As long as I live a stable and fulfilling life, and I'm comfortable in my identity as a person, does it really matter whether I adhere to my parents' lifestyles?

I think way too much emphasis has been placed on preserving culture for culture's sake.

136 · Brigette Gabriel on October 27, 2008 08:10 AM
Btw since many are throwing culture and tradition generously. Let me try to first define desi/south-asian culture in the US context in attempt to understand/discuss the Desi Bradley effect ? (a) Visiting temples/gurdwaras/mosques/churches (b) Learning some south-asian dance, song or art form (c) fan of Bollywood (d) Celebrating desi festivals and wearing south-asian dress for festivals/parties etc. (e) Discussing south-asian politics and relevance to US policies or desi immigrants (f) desi traditional or mixed style marriage.

Let me see how much of that list I can check off from my perspective:
ABD Malayalee in Dallas

a) Well, I'm Roman Catholic, so I attend an American church. But I've been to the Indian churches a few times, seen a temple once. Check.

b) Most of my community's song and dance participants are girls. I was an art major in college. I'll consider Malayalam an art form, and I know it, so I'll give the above total a cumulative check.

c) I like Bollywood! Check.

d) I attended India Association events in college, plus my family and I did the circuit in grade and high school. I used to wear more traditional Indian garb to some of the events, but as time went on, dress-code has been simplified for males: suit, shirt, tie. So I'll give me a check, more or less.

e) Discussing South Asian politics? No check. Discussing South Asians in American politics/ how US politics affects Desi immigrants? Check with a bullet!

f) Marriage: I'm single. So no check. But I've attended Malayalee weddings. Check. I don't know what format my wedding will take. So I'll say no check, with an option for check.

Taz, I wrote the "Brown Girls" comic that you posted over the weekend--thanks for putting it up, love all the dialogue it provoked. I was going to post a response of some sort on our blog this afternoon and was planning on posting it on Sepia too, but just noticed that the comments are closed

Admin: Here is the response on Deepa's blog.