She should leave or be fired. I don't see how her associations with the VHP-A and her voluntary ties with the VHP/RSS for relief work when many other options were available, even leave this open for debate.

The recent attacks have made it very likely that Modi will be India's next Prime Minister. I wonder how the US and European countries, which have denied him a visa earlier for his pogroms, will address this development, which will be devastating both symbolically and practically for India's muslims.

I dont think any south asian should be a part of the US govt until we sort our politics out.

This informational page on her Sangh-links was also posted in the comments section of Spottie's blog.

Two options: 1) she supports the Sangh, however obliquely, ie she has been willing to overlook their violent excesses in her positions in the past (as a VHPA fundraising coordinator), or 2) she has not carried out certain responsibilities (eg background checks on VHP or Ekal Vidyalaya) connected to her work as a leader in VHPA and Indicorps.

Or: Is there a third option?

she has not carried out certain responsibilities (eg background checks on VHP or Ekal Vidyalaya) connected to her work as a leader in VHPA and Indicorps.

Wow, what a wide eyed innocent she must be. Apparently she doesn't read the papers either, otherwise she'd have some idea of the mischief the VHP was up to.

Wait, what? The social and religious conservative Rick Santorum wants someone to disassociate themselves from the social and religious conservative VHP? What brought about this change of Santorum's heart? Has Santorum been spending too much time with his dog? Is it a male dog? Why is the media not asking such hard-hitting questions?

disassociate themselves from the social and religious conservative VHP?

Not conservative, radical. The six degrees of separation game is fun when it's Kevin Bacon at one end, not when it is pogroms and terror campaigns.

pingpong -- remember that Santorum is a Christianist, and that the VHP was involved in anti-Christian pogroms. As his piece says:

The worst violence against India's Christians came in August, after a VHP leader was killed in the state of Orissa. Although Maoists immediately took credit for the killing, the VHP blamed Christians. Hindu mobs went door to door, killing Christian families, raping women, and burning homes and churches. The government reports that 54,000 Christians are still homeless, more than 10,000 are now living in refugee camps, and 118 are dead as a result. The headlines are heartbreaking: "Christian woman burnt to death by rampaging VHP mobs in Orissa;" "Hindu extremists burn one nun alive, rape another." Every day brought fresh reports of violence against Christians. The response from leaders of the VHP and the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP): Stop converting Hindus, and the violence will end.

Not surprised to see SM help drum up this. VHP is not a terrorist organization and to conflate it to the multitudes of Jihadi outfits spun across the globe is at best disingenuous. Santorum obviously got the memo from his local Bible Thumpers on "Gods Work" in India. We all have our pet agenda's don't we. What about the multitude of Jewish organziations that could just as easily tied "Zionist Extremism" in Israel. To tie Sonal to the localized carnage of Gujarat which has been itself has been lent to revisonism is just sad since she obviously wanted to assist with the relief efforts.

Its also very telling that BJP/VHP has gone from just being Hindu "Nationalist" to Hindu "Extremist" and people are acting as though if these people were to come to power they'd organzied Pogroms and hindu versions of LeT.

Firing Sonal Shah is the right thing to do in spite of Santorum saying it. Further, his piece itself is solid on all its facts, and is very well argued, so it cannot be dismissed on its merits.

remember that Santorum is a Christianist, and that the VHP was involved in anti-Christian pogroms.

Yes, but apart from the details like which specific religion each aligns with, Santorum and VHP have much in common with each other than, say, someone like Richard Dawkins.

This seems to be a well-calculated political move by Santorum -- if Obama retains Shah, Santorum will excoriate the insensitivity shown to Muslims and Christians by Obama. If Obama fires Shah, Santorum will attack Obama's k-degrees-of-separation political correctness and also question why Shah was hired in the first place if Obama is so uncomfortable with her background.

Either way, there seems to be little that Shah herself can do. Even if she herself is not to blame, others will blame her anyway to get at Obama. The move is not up to Shah any more.

The genocidal agenda of VHP is no longer provincial - it has gone global. Caste Hindus in their bid to emulate their Zionist patrons in terms of clout and influence over American political life have successfully planted their trojan in the most powerful circles. Sonal Shah with her light eyes and straight nose is an exemplar of the Aryan ideal that the VHP seeks to arrantly impose upon India and the free world.

11 · pingpong said

Yes, but apart from the details like which specific religion each aligns with, Santorum and VHP have much in common with each other

Dinesh D'Souza effectively suggested that the Christian right should find common cause with Jihadis, O'Reilly essentially invited that the Taliban bomb San Francisco as that was the bastion of the liberal irreligious. This doesn't mean they don't enthusiastically support bomb, bomb, bomb, bombing Iran or Iraq.

At the very least, even if you choose to put a charitable spin on things, Shah is guilty of horrendously bad judgment for choosing to turn a blind eye to the VHP's excesses and being such an integral part of their leadership, and aligning with them for relief efforts when she had non-religious options. I think there is something far more severe, and there should be no place for people who have made choices like she did on Obama's team.

The genocidal agenda of VHP is no longer provincial - it has gone global. Caste Hindus in their bid to emulate their Zionist patrons in terms of clout and influence over American political life have successfully planted their trojan in the most powerful circles. Sonal Shah with her light eyes and straight nose is an exemplar of the Aryan ideal that the VHP seeks to arrantly impose upon India and the free world.

ROFLMAO.

I expect only the best from the Pakjabi Intelligentsia.

Wow.

Mroo, word to the wise, old chap. Kayastha_lady is a well-developed troll who makes way-over-the-top statements to satirize the left-wing.

Zionist patrons -> Aryan ideals. Nice logic.

First, I hope Sonal Shah is nominated to the Energy Post--from her experience, I think she'd do an excellent job!

If we are going to use the head of the VHP-A as a source, it should also be noted that he said the VHP-A is not affiliated with VHP in India. I think that is the cause of many folks consternation.

Q. What is your response to the criticism that says she should not be part of the Obama team because of her connections with the VHP. Your response?

My response is that this is absolute hogwash. First of all is it a crime to be associated with the VHP or VHP-America, or the RSS? VHP America is an independent body of this country. It is not part of VHP-Bharat. Sonal Shah, from what I know was not a part of VHP-Bharat.

Also, I think it's important to note that Santorum's piece, even though it was in a mainstream publication, is an opinion piece and not journalistic reporting. In fact, I think it's horribly written, gives a confusing timeline of events, and makes certain direct linkages where there are none (the VHP=BJP=RSS), that many people often do. He cites the 2002 Gujarat violence and the recent Orissa violence, even though Sonal Shah's work with earthquake relief was in 2001. Santorum and others have asked Ms. Shah to distance herself from the VHP, and in her statement, I think she not only does this pretty strongly, but she also separates herself from the VHP political ideology. I don't know what else she can do to please her critics. I thought her statement was pretty strong, especially the following: "I've always condemned any politics of division, of ethnic or religious hatred, of violence and intimidation as a political tool." What else should she be saying?

As an aside, I'm curious if anyone has an idea of how large the indian-american left is in numbers?

17 · Sajit said

"I've always condemned any politics of division, of ethnic or religious hatred, of violence and intimidation as a political tool." What else should she be saying?

Yes, and Colin Powell strongly opposes the introduction of false evidence in international forums as a casus belli for war. No problem, right?

It is truly disgusting if "left"/"liberal" is now used as a brush to tar those against the legitimizing of the VHP in American political leadership.

It is truly disgusting if "left"/"liberal" is now used as a brush to tar those against the legitimizing of the VHP in American political leadership.

gbs: I'm not sure what in my comment was tarring the left (i didn't use "liberal" once in my comment) or attempting to legitimize the VHP in America?

I was referring to this:

As an aside, I'm curious if anyone has an idea of how large the indian-american left is in numbers?

in the context of Sonal Shah's email blaming the left for the witchhunt, and the general associated rhetoric around it.

Picking Sonal Shah for a position of responsibility would say loud and clear that it is ok to be part of the leadership of VHP and still be part of mainstream American politics. I consider this an undesirable direction.

gbs, I think it is safe to say that it wasn't mainstream desis pushing this issue, of tying Sonal Shah's work to the Sangh.

Also, I think the claim that she was part of the leadership of VHP in India is a leap too far.

21 · Sajit said

gbs, I think it is safe to say that it wasn't mainstream desis pushing this issue, of tying Sonal Shah's work to the Sangh.

I guess I am not mainstream then, whatever that means. I don't consider myself a part of the "left", and the strategy of labeling those who oppose her appointment as extremist is just unnecessary misdirection and deflection, when the real issue is the conscious choices Sonal Shah made at multiple points when she had other options.

21 · Sajit said

Also, I think the claim that she was part of the leadership of VHP in India is a leap too far.

She is part of the leadership of VHP America, which purports to further the goals of VHP India. If we want to do some fancy footwork to claim that they are two completely independent organizations with the unfortunate accident of sharing a name, pardon me if I don't join the dance.

I guess I am not mainstream then, whatever that means. I don't consider myself a part of the "left", and the strategy of labeling those who oppose her appointment as extremist is just unnecessary misdirection and deflection, when the real issue is the conscious choices Sonal Shah made at multiple points when she had other options.

Sorry, I don't want this to get into a back and forth, so I'll stop with this one here, but I never called anyone an extremist. I think everyone is entitled to his or her own views.

On her alleged leadership role, as I said in my first comment, if we are to believe the source in the NDTV article who says Sonal was, right out of college, put on the governing board of the VHP-America, should we also believe him when he says that the

"VHP America is an independent body of this country. It is not part of VHP-Bharat. Sonal Shah, from what I know was not a part of VHP-Bharat?"

I don't know the answer, i guess.

Sajit,

That's an important point. There is no evidence that she has ever been a member of VHP-India, nor have I heard anybody level that accusation.

Sonal was, right out of college, put on the governing board of the VHP-America

What does this mean? That she had no choice in the matter? She chose to be on the governing board of VHP-America.

shouldn't we also believe him when he says that "VHP America is an independent body of this country. It is not part of VHP-Bharat."

Yes, as a legal matter, it is an independent organization and he is correct. But when it claims to share the goals of VHP-India, and shares a name, it should definitely give one pause. Further, in his interview, he also rants:

ou have to see the forces running against you. There is something called wisdom. It is very clear what is going on. Known characters from the Left. Leftist, Communist, Marxist well-known Hindu baiters, Hindu haters are coming out of the woodwork. So you do not have to fall in their trap. No matter what you tell them they are going to sing the same song so I think what Sonal has done is correct.

where he seems to indicate that Sonal's disavowal of the VHP is opportunistic. Should I also believe that?

There is no evidence that she has ever been a member of VHP-India, nor have I heard anybody level that accusation.

Yes, I am basing my opinions on her choice to be on the governing board of VHP-America, and her choice to direct her aid efforts and relief work in India through VHP-A, when several non-religious outlets were available. Surely, as someone growing up in a family with strong VHP/RSS ties (which by itself is no problem at all), she should have known the goals and ideals of these organizations. She still chose to be an integral part of them and was trusted enough to reach their leadership circles. Are people here willing to make the claim that the leadership circle of VHP-A is completely divorced from VHP-India and has no ties with them at all, when the American organization claims to advance the goals of the Indian organization, and shares the very same name?

Pingpong -

You're right that Santorum doesn't care about India, just Obama. But I don't think that Santorum has any credibility either (nor should he). What Sonal has to fear are the National Journals of the world, and she has some leverage with them, I think they're willing to listen.

27 · gbs said

she should have known the goals and ideals of these organizations

Maybe she only learnt about the positive and progressive goals of those organizations from her family? I find it hard to believe she would have been where she is today had it been otherwise.

One thing is certain, all presidents Dem or Repub in this country have nodded to the "fact" that this country's foundations are Judeo-Christian. I think Obama might be the first not to but even he had to loudly proclaim his Christian faith. I know most of us find this problematic but we don't view either of these parties or their members as beyond the pale. We can converse with them and work together. I admit that there is a difference, in a country like India without functioning law and order, comparable rhetoric has catastrophic results. But there is nothing in the VHP charter or platform that would indicate that they would have supported the Gujurat pogroms. It's a far stretch from arguing against questioning a critical reading of Hinduism in elementary school texts (when all other religions are introduced from a neutral perspective) to supporting attacks on innocent Muslims and Christians. I don't like the VHP, I find them too Abrahamic in their formulation of Hinduism. There is of course a difference between organizations in theory and in actuality. I will dismiss as a hypocrite anyone who sees anything exceptionally evil about the VHP "on paper" relative to other religious organizations, but I will say that their QA is horribly bad and they need to comeout forcefully in speech and action against the Bajrang Dal factions within their ranks if they want a place at the table. I don't find Ms. Shah's board participation in VHP-A troublesome on its own, what is disconcerting to me is her mtg with Modi to receive that award. When I see the testimony on her behalf from many people who seem very engaged in secular, constructive work I try to give her the benefit of the doubt and think she was being practical and chose to do this so Indicorp could continue to do its good work in Gujurat

To think that Hindu nationalist ties are problematic in US politics in wake of the Mumbai terror attacks is--well, to think with a "tin ear." Sorry, that's just the way it is. Santorum is washed up. Nobody important gives a damn about Hindu nationalism in terms of American politics. India (soon to be led by the BJP) is the USA's new BFF.

But there is nothing in the VHP charter or platform that would indicate that they would have supported the Gujurat pogroms.

The VHP is hardly a benign organization from the top down. What about the demolition of the Babri Masjid, 2007 Orissa riots, and Kandhamal riots? The VHP leadership came out in full throated support of the Gujarat riots, as well. Togadia is well known for his trident distribution campaign as part of his mobilization platform. It is not just a matter of QA, it is a matter of the actions they actively pursue and encourage.

I think Sonal Shah should step down even if, as I suspect, she is not the bigot she is being painted as. She's tainted and while she has an exceptional CV there are tons of other really bright people coming out of the woodwork to work in the Obama administration

To think that Hindu nationalist ties are problematic in US politics in wake of the Mumbai terror attacks is--well, to think with a "tin ear."

Great. I guess this will be America's new favorite extremist organization then. And we all know how well that works out.

Also, I hadn't mentioned the Modi award because I recall a news link claiming that the award wasn't actually given out by Modi. If that is not the case, that is certainly one more troublesome action in a pattern of aligning with these organizations.

31 · rob said

India (soon to be led by the BJP) is the USA's new BFF.

Don't be so sure. India needs Pakistan as well given the Afghanistan fiasco. So the US will play a delicate balancing act, except it might not be as overtly pro Pakistan as it was in decades past. (I dread the prospect of a Narendra Modi Prime Ministership for both the symbolic effect as well as the practical impact it will have on Indian Muslims).

Sonal Shah with her light eyes and straight nose is an exemplar of the Aryan ideal that the VHP seeks to arrantly impose upon India and the free world.

Ha. Ha. She does look very "scythian" though,doesn't she? And I thought "Shah" was a surname for Parsees?

34 · gbs said

To think that Hindu nationalist ties are problematic in US politics in wake of the Mumbai terror attacks is--well, to think with a "tin ear."

Great. I guess this will be America's new favorite extremist organization then. And we all know how well that works out.

Also, I hadn't mentioned the Modi award because I recall a news link claiming that the award wasn't actually given out by Modi. If that is not the case, that is certainly one more troublesome action in a pattern of aligning with these organizations.

I will go with you on this, earlier reports had the award being given out by Modi but I think you are correct

Desi left extremists along with wingnut Santorum are repeating that 50s episode of "Are you now or have you ever been a Member of XXXX party?
Its a simple question and it deserves a simple answer." xxxxx-ism of 21st century !!!
I find it amusing actually.

Desi left extremists

you forgot liberal and progressive. maybe add kossack for good measure.

she made a mistake and she should be given a chance. even if one is desi, in the past, it wasn't well known about the nasty side of the vhp.

Let's be clear on one thing about US politics right now--I mean, let's not lie to ourselves. India is now perceived by the average American who's paying any attention as having a "Muslim problem." That's

not

not

rob (who brunched with some "average Americans" today who were freaked out about Mumbai

Santorum is generally known for his and intolerant views, so if matters had stopped there, I think she could have ignored the piece without much political cost. The problem is that Santorum’s remarks took the issue out of the desi context where it could be contained, and brought them to a wider audience.

sigh. this metastisization was inevitable given shah's intransigence on the issue over the years. as someone who has objected to her appointment especially in terms of where it might lead, i have to say i'm really angry at the somewhat clintonian nature of her actions (the parsing of language, the statement that is as close to a lie as you can get and perhaps crosses the line on vhp - indian politics, and placing her own political prospects ahead of transparency or what future eventualities would be.)

LOL at those jealous left wing nuts who can't stand the fact that a proud HINDU WOMAN has come so far and has acheived so much without having to convert to christianity (like that coconut Jindall) or having to become one of those self hating 'Hindus'.
She is proud of her religion, culture and roots and she is a shining example to the Indian Hindus living in America. The message is clear you don't have to convert and abandon your religion and culture to become succesfull.
What Sonal Shah has acheived so far ALL her left wing nutty opponents won't even acheive in 100 lives

Nobel prize winner Steven Chu is billed as the top candidate for energy secretary. Good pick.

(like that coconut Jindall)

Was that necessary?

45 · pingpong said

(like that coconut Jindall)

Was that necessary?

I agree. Jindall has only one "l". Just like successfull.

I expect only the best from the Pakjabi Intelligentsia.

Go Sonal!, is it easier to trade pot-shots than flesh out an actual argument or accusation? The concern is not with her being Hindu or a woman, but rather, in whether or not she has furthered, supported, or funded an organization (VHP-Bharat) that promotes a narrow view of Indian identity and citizenship that supports/promotes communalistic violence as one of its tactics. Or, is your definition of "pride" equivalent to a narrow vision of violence wrapped in the rhetoric of Hinduism?

pingpong, I'm with you. If "coconut" isn't being used in self-reference, then I don't see why it should be any more/less tolerated than "UT" (which, we know, the Mutineers/Intern have agreed is not cool).

Could someone please explain the difference between VHP-America and VHP-Bharat in terms of their actual practice, platform, activities, etc.? I guess what I want to know is if this is similar to Irish Americans funding the IRA for 30 years, or if there's a more substantial disconnect that those of us who are not "in the know" have not heard of.

The genocidal agenda of VHP is no longer provincial - it has gone global. Caste Hindus in their bid to emulate their Zionist patrons in terms of clout and influence over American political life have successfully planted their trojan in the most powerful circles. Sonal Shah with her light eyes and straight nose is an exemplar of the Aryan ideal that the VHP seeks to arrantly impose upon India and the free world.

Kayastha Lady, what does this even mean? How can anyone with Zionist patrons push an Aryan ideal? Sonal is pretty, but then most people of any race with straight noses are.

Honestly, this hue and cry is such a crabs in a bucket job. I'm not seeing any Jewish-American groups putting out petitions about Rahm Emanuel's father's politics, and debating whether Rahm has ties to Likud.

This thing here is an attack disguised as a plea. I guess you have to be prissy if you're figuring out a way to lambast a woman who had a big hand in creating serious opportunities for young people to engage in public service.

Personally, I'm deeply disappointed in Vijay Prashad as well for kicking off all this hoopla and palaver and spreading smears about a successful woman through his own media contacts. Vijay, if you're reading this, you're a big boy now, so kindly go pick on someone your own size.

Personally, I'm deeply disappointed in Vijay Prashad as well for kicking off all this hoopla and palaver and spreading smears about a successful woman through his own media contacts. Vijay, if you're reading this, you're a big boy now, so kindly go pick on someone your own size.

Amrita:

If you go back, you'll find people raising questions about Sonal on the web (and in person) long before Vijay Prashad's piece. I don't think this would have gone away if Prashad hadn't said anything, whether you think the criticisms are fair or not.

I take it you see this as mainly being about her father?

Meh, I think Steve Chu, Nobel Laureate and the Director of LBNL is a better choice right now.. this "issue" notwithstanding

49 · Amrita said

Honestly, this hue and cry is such a crabs in a bucket job. I'm not seeing any Jewish-American groups putting out petitions about s Rahm Emanuel's father's politics, and debating whether Rahm has ties to Likud.

You're not looking very hard. It took me about five minutes to find (google "rahm emanuel" and "progressive jewish"). In fact, there is a LOT of work done by progressive jewish americans who understand that zionism and judaism are not equivalent terms, much like many of us understand that Hinduism and Hindutva are not equivalent terms.

I agree, though, that the issue of gender is not explored enough on this - i've been trying to think really hard about my own attitudes. That there are many South Asian-American feminists who are opposed to Sonal Shah makes me feel that perhaps gender is not the central issue here, though it's always an issue, which is why I continue to participate.

Key Questions for Me:

How do you feel about a U.S. government official simultaneously serving on the governing board of a rightwing Hindu organization in the United States (even using her U.S. government e-mail on their lists!)?

How do you feel that this person has not been forthright or transparent about her actions and possibly beliefs over several years and in fact tried to cover them up? What kind of accountability is this, particularly for what this administration has promised us?

How would you feel about this person being put in a position of power as a prominent South Asian American given the answers to questions one and two?

Those are the three questions that I think are worth considering, regardless of where you fall on the underlying issues.

I'm not seeing any Jewish-American groups putting out petitions about Rahm Emanuel's father's politics, and debating whether Rahm has ties to Likud.

Rahm wasn't on the leadership council of The American Friends of the Likud, either.

(He also moved very quickly to disavow his father's statements and apologize for them.)

On her alleged leadership role, as I said in my first comment, if we are to believe the source in the NDTV article who says Sonal was, right out of college, put on the governing board of the VHP-America

sajit, she is 40 now. the years we are talking about are at least the three years leading through 2001. My guess is that she was not "just out of college" in any sense that a 2nd gen American desi would use the phrase. She was in her early 30s and working at the U.S. Treasury department.

She was in her early 30s and working at the U.S. Treasury department

..Tr. Dept. employees are allowed to become members of political orgs with world HQs in foreigh countries?
Would a person of Pakistani/Algerian/Indonesian origin be allowed to?

Oh - she is 40 now. All this while i was under the impression that she is below 30. Fresh out of college - the association could be excused. Mid thirties a wee bit harder. Although on the whole this is a non-issue.
Let us turn this around and ask can someone who has been on the governing council of the Communist Party of america or the governing council of the Klan (take your pick) be appointed in the cabinet. If yes, then Sonal stays. If not, then maybe it is time to go.
If Modi becomes PM of India, Sonal's presence will be of benefit to both India and USA. When the USA can elect Bush twice then Modi as PM of India is not so bad.

If you go back, you'll find people raising questions about Sonal on the web (and in person) long before Vijay Prashad's piece. I don't think this would have gone away if Prashad hadn't said anything, whether you think the criticisms are fair or not.

I take it you see this as mainly being about her father?

Catching a wave doesn't make it a more honorable or a better thing to do, and yes, isn't the hullabaloo all about Sonal's family ties? Here's what Vijay says:
"Born in Gujarat, India, Shah came to the United States as a two-year old. Her father, a chemical engineer, first worked in New York before moving to Houston, and then moving away from his education toward the stock market. The Shahs remain active in Houston’s Indian community, not only in the ecumenical Gujarati Samaj (a society for people from Gujarat), but also in the far more cruel organizations of the Hindu Right, such as the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Overseas Friends of the BJP (the main political party of the Hindu Right) and the Ekal Vidyalaya. Shah’s parents, Ramesh and Kokila, not only work as volunteers for these outfits, but they also held positions of authority in them. Their daughter was not far behind. She was an active member of the VHPA, the U. S. branch of the most virulently fascistic outfit within India. The VHP’s head, Ashok Singhal, believes that his organization should “inculcate a fear psychosis among [India’s] Muslim community.” This was Shah’s boss. Till 2001, Shah was the National Coordinator of the VHPA."

Apart from putative family ties to VHP in India, the rest is hot air and sleight of hand. For example, notice the the leap from Sonal being an "active" member of the separately incorporated VHPA (active at what? Cruelty or public service?)to Ashok Singhal, head of the VHP in India, suddenly becoming Sonal’s boss and then back again to Sonal as National Coordinator for the VHPA.

You or I could easily parse the next attack-and-backpedal gem from VP the same way:
"At an earlier panel I questioned her links to the Hindu Right, and so asked people to be wary about her organization, Indicorps. She was furious, and we had a bitter exchange in the Green Room. But at no point did she deny her active connections to the Hindu Right. Her brother, Anand, wrote to me not long after, concerned that Indicorps, which he runs full-time from India, would be tainted by our tussle. “I was curious about Sonal’s own personal relationship with the VHPA,” I wrote back, “That sparked some concern for me. Of course we are free to have our multiple associations, and there is no expectation that all our affiliations necessarily influence each other. That necessity is granted, although it is my understanding that the VHPA is a very disciplined organization that demands a lot from its members – notably congruence in all the work that they do. Which is why I raised the question."

This article has become a source without being too clearly examined. But as Amardeep said in his post of November 10, "The accusations have been widely covered in the Indian media, including The Hindustan Times, TOI, and DNA. Most of those are simply echoing the statements made by Prashad. I have also been getting emails from left-leaning Indian academic friends, who are outraged about Sonal Shah."

So the frenzy is being whipped up into a froth on purpose-- it seems he knew her at U Chicago and she took a moneymaking path while he took the academic route--looks personal to me.

Honestly, this hue and cry is such a crabs in a bucket job. I'm not seeing any Jewish-American groups putting out petitions about Rahm Emanuel's father's politics, and debating whether Rahm has ties to Likud.

did you read the post or the comments before commenting? first of all, my opposition to sonal shah is based on her choices, not based on her father's choices (the only reason her father's choices are relevant to me is that they render moot the notion that she was unaware what the vhp/rss are about). second, there are many reasons why america's politics on israel can be considered bad, or too weighted in favor of israel. these politics are no reason for indian-americans to emulate this same kind of behavior. gender is a red-herring to me - the fact that certain factions of extreme israeli politics are acceptable in the us does not mean that radical hindu organizations need to be acceptable to indians.

If Modi becomes PM of India, Sonal's presence will be of benefit to both India and USA. When the USA can elect Bush twice then Modi as PM of India is not so bad.

modi is very likely to become pm of india, and it will be a sad, sad day. by the logic of helping with modi, why not appoint togadia or babu bajrangi as liaison? i also have no idea what the comparison of bush and modi is supposed to illuminate.

51 · jackal said

Meh, I think Steve Chu, Nobel Laureate and the Director of LBNL is a better choice right now.. this "issue" notwithstanding

but there is more. i hope there is enough of an uproar about sonal shah's vhp ties that obama feels she is just not worth it for any position, let alone positions that require senate confirmation.

isn't the hullabaloo all about Sonal's family ties?

I'm not going to try to defend Prashad's breathless prose, but I don't feel Vijay defines the issue either.

Apart from putative family ties to VHP in India, the rest is hot air and sleight of hand.

So then you're unconcerned about her position in the VHPA leadership. Do you feel it is irrelevant as a consideration?

58 · Amrita said

So the frenzy is being whipped up into a froth on purpose-- it seems he knew her at U Chicago and she took a moneymaking path while he took the academic route--looks personal to me.

i realize parsing vijay prashad's motives are more amusing to you - in an earlier comment, you remarked that you know the prashad family personally and that they are obsessed with self promotion, but that does not mean blithely dismissing the arguments against her. i was disturbed earlier by the fact that sonal shah chose to direct her participation in gujarat relief efforts through the vhp, but had reserved judgment. however, this further news about her leadership role in the vhp-a certainly cements my opposition to any role for her in mainstream american political life.

55 · dr amonymous said

sajit, she is 40 now. the years we are talking about are at least the three years leading through 2001.

the vhp-a head was full of bluster and bs in the interview, when it came to defending sonal. he was practising his version of the taqqiya that people much like to revile.

27 · gbs said

Yes, I am basing my opinions on her choice to be on the governing board of VHP-America, and her choice to direct her aid efforts and relief work in India through VHP-A, when several non-religious outlets were available.

So you are against her no matter which Hindu organization she supports. Well, that says a lot.

"i hope there is enough of an uproar about sonal shah's vhp ties that obama feels she is just not worth it for any position, let alone positions that require senate confirmation."

i don't know about that. obama's been there, done that. if anything he's likely to draw parallels with the tarring and feathering he himself went through on account of rev. wright and ayers. also, vhp and rss are both legitimate entities, unlike the klan and the communist party. so even if shah was directly aligned with these parties, but in a limited, focused way, I doubt this would be a cause for concern. i would love for her senate confirmation hearings to thrash out every single misdeed of the vhp just so it can be out there for public scrutiny and americans in general (and not just the self-flagellating hindus) can judge for themselves.

64 · rgb said

So you are against her no matter which Hindu organization she supports. Well, that says a lot.

i am sure it does, to you. any other semiotics you'd like to share? we're not talking about opposition because she sat on her local temple building council here and participated in sunday chants of the gita.

. I think Obama might be the first not to but even he had to loudly proclaim his Christian faith.

no. this is relatively new. after all, andrew jackson, our 7th president is probably the first which would even be counted as christian by conservative protestants (two were explicit unitarians, jefferson's personal skeptical deism was well known, washington and madison were milder than jefferson but of the same general orientation in terms of adhering to a cultural christianity but lacking orthodoxy, while james monroe's personal writings don't seem to show any evidence of personal piety [after the presidency jefferson's writings do get more orthodox, converging upon the unitarian christianity of john adams]). additionally, there are several unitarian presidents after the earlier ones, e.g., william taft.

i know this is off topic, but this misperception needs to be corrected. there are stupid people who will repeat it.

62 · gbs said

this further news about her leadership role in the vhp-a certainly cements my opposition to any role for her in mainstream american political life.

Clearly you've made up your mind irrespective of the facts.

All these attacks on Sonal Shah are no different from the US case for war on Iraq - weak on facts combined with outright lies. America is a 'faith-based' nation after all. No surprise more than 60% of americans believe that Iraqis were responsible for 9/11 even though none of the hijackers were from that country.

One thing is certain, all presidents Dem or Repub in this country have nodded to the "fact" that this country's foundations are Judeo-Christian

also, judeo-christian was a term popularized after world war ii. the early republic was anti-catholic in sentiment (see the declaration of independence), so using the term 'judeo-christian' is totally anachronistic.

also, judeo-christian was a term popularized after world war ii. the early republic was anti-catholic in sentiment (see the declaration of independence), so using the term 'judeo-christian' is totally anachronistic.

In fact, (white male) Jews and Catholics didn't have the franchise in every state until some point around the 1820s-1840s (I have never met anybody who could tell me exactly when it changed).

68 · rgb said

Clearly you've made up your mind irrespective of the facts.

yes, exactly. also i said "her". so i must be sexist. you missed that careful reading in your semiotics.

66 · gbs said

i am sure it does, to you. any other semiotics you'd like to share?

I've got better things to do with my sunday, thank you. Feel free to spend the rest of the day attacking your strawman Sonal Shah.

72 · rgb said

I've got better things to do with my sunday, thank you

didn't seem like it earlier based on your fine toothcomb parsing. and straw-woman, thank you very much. have a great rest of your weekend, love!

rgb, gbs, please lay out your arguments rather than attacking each other.

63 · gbs said

the vhp-a head was full of bluster and bs in the interview, when it came to defending sonal. he was practising his version of the taqqiya that people much like to revile.

Fair enough. that's why the VHP-A e-mail archive is helpful as corroborative information.

You're not looking very hard. It took me about five minutes to find (google "rahm emanuel" and "progressive jewish"). In fact, there is a LOT of work done by progressive jewish americans who understand that zionism and judaism are not equivalent terms, much like many of us understand that Hinduism and Hindutva are not equivalent terms.

Thanks, doc amonymous, only you linked to an opinion piece, not an online petition addressed to Rahmbo himself nor an attempt to force him to explain himself and repudiate his own ties and his family's ties with anybody. That, OTOH, is what we can see being demanded of Sonal in the strongly voiced challenge set forth here-- "We further hope that you will unequivocally disown and repudiate your and your family’s past and current associations with the VHP and all other Sangh Parivar organizations"---and from a coalition of 13 orgs, and 26 "endorsements", no less! Note as well the twee disclaimer at the end, "We wish you all the best in your endeavors and we look forward to your response."

There's a difference! What we have going on with Sonal is very personal and absolutely a crabs in a bucket episode purposely blown up out of all proportion, no matter how large and important the issues that are being brought to bear. We Desis do this best!

75 · dr amonymous said

Fair enough. that's why the VHP-A e-mail archive is helpful as corroborative information.

yeah, that timeline has been independently established, i am referring to his defense of her choice to be on the leadership council (minimizing it as just after college), as well as his opinion of her disavowals.

i realize parsing vijay prashad's motives are more amusing to you - in an earlier comment, you remarked that you know the prashad family personally and that they are obsessed with self promotion, but that does not mean blithely dismissing the arguments against her.

Actually, yes it does mean parsing and dismissing these bogus arguments, but by no means blithely. This is some serious damage being done to an individual's reputation, nothing less.

Amrita:

I replied to you in comments #54 and #61 but failed to mention you by name.

american mainstream politics is reflexively supportive of several hardline right israeli opinions (such as likud's opinions on settlers and unilaterally changing the facts on the ground), which in a just world, would not be acceptable. this is not worthy of emulation, and is a poor reason to support sonal shah. israel's goal is to demographically and otherwise exclude all but folks of the jewish persuasion, i don't think that is the direction india should go down, and i don't see why right wing hindu organizations should be given added legitimacy by appointments like sonal's. (of course, all this might be moot if, as i dread, narendra modi becomes the next prime minister of india - what sonal shah's appointment indicates will be the least of the worries).

78 · Amrita said

Actually, yes it does mean parsing and dismissing these bogus arguments

but not at the expense of the non-bogus arguments.

All of this anti-Sonal campaign just seem like an anti-Hindu tirade to me. People in the comments have clearly mentioned how they would have loved her if she wasn't working with an Hindu Organization.

I think it is despicable for us to drag Sonal Shah and her family through such a disgusting smear campaign based on zero facts of any wrong doing.

Can any one tell me Has she committed any crime? Has she been accused of any crime, other than being a Hindu of course? Has she done any wrong while working for VHP of American? Has VHP of America done any illegal activity? Has any of the organization that she may or may not have worked has ever been convicted of any crime? Are any of the organization that she worked for is banned anywhere in the world?

If not, then we should look at our behavior and get out of this crab mentality of pulling down any of one us who has gotten ahead through shear hard work in American society.

So then you're unconcerned about her position in the VHPA leadership. Do you feel it is irrelevant as a consideration?

Never mind. Don't worry bout mentioning me by name, Memory--- you just forgot. But do you see that our discussion, pro or con, of Sonal's past position in the leadership of the VHP-A, arising as it does out of a deliberate smear campaign, will necessarily include material that is irrelevant to an appointment of any kind? Especially renewable/green energy, if that's the case.

76 · Amrita said

Thanks, doc amonymous, only you linked to an opinion piece, not an online petition addressed to Rahmbo himself nor an attempt to force him to explain himself and repudiate his own ties and his family's ties with anybody. That, OTOH, is what we can see being demanded of Sonal in the strongly voiced challenge set forth here-- "We further hope that you will unequivocally disown and repudiate your and your family’s past and current associations with the VHP and all other Sangh Parivar organizations"---and from a coalition of 13 orgs, and 26 "endorsements", no less! Note as well the twee disclaimer at the end, "We wish you all the best in your endeavors and we look forward to your response."

Since when do online petitions carry more weight than articles in Tikkun by Michael Lerner? It also seems ironic that you would minimize that article given that you're inordinately focused on an article by Vijay Prashad in Counterpunch - when in fact these issues have been bubbling for at least three years and could have been addressed at any point up to and including now. Yet they are not - why? why should we continue to grant power to people that we are uncomfortable with with good reason? this should not be a theoretical discussion =the sangh is part of really heinous activities. it's easy to sit here and talk about this stuff but at a certain point it ceases to be about fairness and simply becomes overindulgence--if you parse sonal shah's statement half as closely as you have vijay prashad's (which is pretty irrelevant since he's not seeking political power in the same sense), it would be pretty ugly.

and if the desi community is better at making sure the people are representing us are not participating in rightwing extremism outside the united states than the jewish community is - well maybe we should pat ourselves on the backs.

also, vhp and rss are both legitimate entities, unlike the klan and the communist party.

i also have no idea what the comparison of bush and modi is supposed to illuminate

Modi is the top rated chief minister in India and Gujarat the best administered state. Even Ratan Tata acknowledges this in his moving Nano car factory to Gujarat. BJP is actually made of the same political slime and isnt different from congress. They are however expected to win the next elections due to anti-incumbency factor. Modi may or may not bid for the PM-ship (Advani is still around) but regardless he is a big player in Indian politics and the US has to take that into account in conduct of foreign policy. The Nov 26 attack has changed many things.

Obama has the sense to make his own judgments and he is ignoring left wing sentiments. If Sonal Shah is competent as she seems to be, she will get a look-in. Her religious inclinations are a non-issue.

Why India needs Narendra Modi?

Suhel Seth

Posted online: Oct 19, 2008 at 2338 hrs

Let me begin with a set of disclosures: I have perhaps written more articles against Modi and his handling of the post-Godhra scenario than most people have; I have called him a modern-day Hitler and have always said that Godhra shall remain an enduring blemish not just on him but on India's political class. I still believe that what happened in Gujarat during the Godhra riots is something we as a nation will pay a heavy price for. But the fact is that time has moved on. As has Narendra Modi. He is not the only politician in India who has been accused of communalism. It is strange that the whole country venerates the Congress Party as the secular messiah but it was that party that presided over the riots in 1984 in which over 3,500 Sikhs died: thrice the number killed in Gujarat.

The fact of the matter is that there is no better performer than Narendra Modi in India's political structure. Three weeks ago, I had gone to Ahmedabad to address the YPO and I thought it would be a good opportunity to catch up with Modi. I called him the evening before and I was given an appointment for the very day I was getting into Ahmedabad. And it was not some official meeting but instead one at his house. As frugal as the man Modi is.

And this is something that the Gandhis and Mayawatis need to learn from Modi. There were no fawning staff members; no secretaries running around; no hangers on…just the two of us with one servant who was there serving tea. And what was most impressive was the passion which Modi exuded. The passion for development; the passion for an invigorated Gujarat; the passion for the uplifting the living standards of the people in his state and the joy with which he recounted simple yet memorable data-points. For instance, almost all of the milk consumed in Singapore is supplied by Gujarat; or for that matter all the tomatoes that are eaten in Afghanistan are produced in Gujarat or the potatoes that Canadians gorge on are all farmed in Gujarat. But it was industry that was equally close to his heart.

It was almost like a child, that he rushed and got a coffee table book on GIFT: the proposed Gujarat Industrial City that will come up on the banks of the Sabarmarti: something that will put the Dubais and the Hong Kongs of this world to shame. And while on the Sabarmati, it is Modi who has created the inter-linking of rivers so that now the Sabarmati is no longer dry.

He then spoke about how he was very keen that Ratan Tata sets up the Nano plant in Gujarat: he told me how he had related the story of the Parsi Navsari priests to Ratan and how touched Ratan was: the story is, when the Navsari priests, (the first Parsis) landed in Gujarat, the ruler of Gujarat sent them a glass of milk, full to the brim and said, there was no place for them: the priests added some sugar to the milk and sent it back saying that they would integrate beautifully with the locals and would only add value to the state.

Narendra Modi is clearly a man in a hurry and he has every reason to be. There is no question in any one's mind that he is the trump card for the BJP after Advani and Modi realises that. People like Rajnath Singh are simply weak irritants I would imagine. He also believes that the country has no apolitical strategy to counter terrorism and in fact he told me how he had alerted the Prime Minister, the Home Minister and the NSA about the impending bomb blasts in Delhi and they did not take him seriously. And then the September 13 blasts happened! It was this resolve of Modi's that I found very admirable. There is a clear intolerance of terrorism and terrorists which is evident in the way the man functions; now there are many cynics who call it minority-bashing but the truth of the matter is that Modi genuinely means business as far as law and order is concerned.

I left Modi's house deeply impressed with the man as Chief Minister: he was clearly passionate and what's more deeply committed. When I sat in the car, I asked my driver what he thought of Modi and his simple reply was Modi is God. Before him, there was nothing. No roads, no power, no infrastructure. Today, Gujarat is a power surplus state. Today, Gujarat attracts more industry than all the states put together. Today, Gujarat is the preferred investment destination for almost every multi-national and what's more, there is an integrity that is missing in other states.

After I finished talking to the YPO (Young President's Organisation) members, I asked some of them very casually, what they thought of Modi. Strangely, this was one area there was no class differential on. They too said he was God.

But what they also added very quickly was if India has just five Narendra Modis, we would be a great country. I don't know if this was typical Gujarati exaggeration or a reflection of the kind of leadership India now needs! There is however, no question in my mind, that his flaws apart, Narendra Modi today, is truly a transformational leader! And we need many more like him!

The writer is Managing Partner, Counselage

83 · Amrita said

But do you see that our discussion, pro or con, of Sonal's past position in the leadership of the VHP-A, arising as it does out of a deliberate smear campaign, will necessarily include material that is irrelevant to an appointment of any kind? Especially renewable/green energy, if that's the case.

So we're supposed to wait until Shah runs for Congress or otherwise accumulates more social and political and economic power before we start finding out about why she aligned herself with Hindu extremists in India, what that consisted of, and figure out how we feel about that?

86 · sn said

Modi is the top rated chief minister in India and Gujarat the best administered state. Even Ratan Tata acknowledges this in his moving Nano car factory to Gujarat.

All these people so enamored of trains running on time should put their loved ones' lives on the line in the tyrant's choice that Modi presents.

Just that Bush is no more a killer of Iraqis than Modi is of Muslims. They can both be considered equally guilty

malice intent counts for quite a bit in considerations of guilt.

american mainstream politics is reflexively supportive of several hardline right israeli opinions (such as likud's opinions on settlers and unilaterally changing the facts on the ground), which in a just world, would not be acceptable. this is not worthy of emulation, and is a poor reason to support sonal shah. israel's goal is to demographically and otherwise exclude all but folks of the jewish persuasion, i don't think that is the direction india should go down, and i don't see why right wing hindu organizations should be given added legitimacy by appointments like sonal's. (of course, all this might be moot if, as i dread, narendra modi becomes the next prime minister of india - what sonal shah's appointment indicates will be the least of the worries).

gbs, this is a hijacked and therefore bogus argument. You have no clear basis for arguing that Sonal Shah is a VHP activist, any more than you do that Rahm Emanuel is a Likudnik.

Since when do online petitions carry more weight than articles in Tikkun by Michael Lerner?

Not "carry more weight" Doc, an opinion piece is a different animal froma petition. Nobody's asking Rahm Emanuel to do anything, Michael Lerner is just Tikkunly shaking his head after the fact. And not all articles are the same either, just because they are articles. Vijay's narrative contains blithe references to his ongoing spat with Sonal, which Lerner's doesn't. Consider, if you will, that since these issues have been bubbling for three years, there ws no reason to wait to paste them all on Sonal Shah! That is what was and remains wrong with Vijay's piece-- it's a personal attack, disguised as a political one, and he has clearly been busy working his contacts since then.

Who is this Vijay Prashad guy to be bowed down to anyway--is this what they're teaching in the schools these days? I mean, the guy is teaching at some school in Hartford (sorry to be snobby) and one of his books is called: Dispatches from Latin America: The Frontline Against Neo-liberalism. Uh, ok, yeah, none of that neo-liberalism for me--we want to stay poor (and cute!) My parents would not give this dude the time of day (nor would I). Seriously.

I will admit that I don't know just how bad, really, the VHP is--I mean, is this just a politicized leftist attacking of some rightist group, or is does the VHP really, specifically, have blood on its hands? I doubt many of my other ABD's really know, and I cert. am not taking anything Prashad says seriously.

So we're supposed to wait until Shah runs for Congress or otherwise accumulates more social and political and economic power before we start finding out about why she aligned herself with Hindu extremists in India, what that consisted of, and figure out how we feel about that?

No, we should just get the hell out of the way of her professional life, that's all. She's not "representing" South Asians or any section ofthe electorate in an appointed position.

She's not "representing" South Asians or any section ofthe electorate in an appointed position.

David Duke for Secretary of Agriculture!

Who is this Vijay Prashad guy to be bowed down to anyway-

Opposition to Sonal Shah existed before Prashad, and focusing on Prashad's article is a distraction.

OK, fair enough--what's the link of VHP-A to blood? I mean, specifically--I know that Muslims were slaughtered in Gujarat--I want to see the connection--other than, well, you (i.e., VHP-A) disagree with Camille, ergo you're responsible.

ok...and has anyone noted issues with Rahm Emmanuel's father. Will his connection cloud his judgement?

Rob, you a bit behind on your reading. You can start with two basic sources for beginners. First, a website: http://stopfundinghate.org/resources.html. You can also try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangh_Parivar. For more advanced reading, try "The Sangh Parivar" edited by C. Jaffrelot.

You can also try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangh_Parivar.

Look, I'm not saying it's wrong, but that doesn't pass the "LOL" test in terms of serious evidence.

OK, fair enough--what's the link of VHP-A to blood? I mean, specifically--I know that Muslims were slaughtered in Gujarat--I want to see the connection--other than, well, you (i.e., VHP-A) disagree with Camille, ergo you're responsible.

malice intent counts for quite a bit in considerations of guilt.

Look, I'm not saying it's wrong, but that doesn't pass the "LOL" test in terms of serious evidence.

42 · dr amonymous said

sigh. this metastisization was inevitable given shah's intransigence on the issue over the years. as someone who has objected to her appointment especially in terms of where it might lead, i have to say i'm really angry at the somewhat clintonian nature of her actions (the parsing of language, the statement that is as close to a lie as you can get and perhaps crosses the line on vhp - indian politics, and placing her own political prospects ahead of transparency or what future eventualities would be.)

Am I the only one that has a hard time taking statements about transparency seriously from someone who clearly has bias and goes by a mis-spelling of anonymous?

there is no direct connection. The Archbishop of Boston shares the same faith as the Bishop of Rome - besides that limited connection. Presumably one owes allegiance to the other but by and large very loose coupling. Presumably VHP-A owes its allegiance to the VHP in India and yes there is blood on the hands of the VHP in India. But then all political parties have blood on their hands in India.

Yeah, good point! I mean, I'm not up on Catholicism, but presumably if the Catholics in Italy are up to nonsense, I wouldn't get all like "no Catholic in Mexico is fit to hold political office." Give me a freaking break, people, and stop treating Hinduism as less significant than Catholicism. Neither I nor my parents are members of VHP-A, just FYI. But, these weird attacks (by Prashad et al) on it are going to make me join!! And get my brother to join--he and my sister-in-law are kind of chauvinistic!!

Melbourne Desi said it right. The big-time Marxists in India also pull out people's nails to make them talk. What I really dislike is seeing a Marxist trying to stop someone from a simpler family of origin achieving superior growth and standing.

OK, so--I just joined VHP-A--for $25.00 for a year. So there. Who'd have thought that Sepia Mutiny would drive mild-mannered me into the arms of the Hindu extremists? I just can't take this Prashad-esque commie BS. Sorry if I offend anyone--I'm actually pretty harmless.

this is a broken analogy. you can be a hindu without being part of the vhp, and certainly without being part of the vhp-a leadership council, as well as leading vhp-a's relief outreach in gujarat. vhp-india has definitely had a penchant for extremism since it was a key part of the notorious bhagalpur riots in 1989 along with the bjp, initiated some babri related violence in 1990, participated in the babri demolition in 1992, and so on and so forth. this didn't start with the modi supported 2002 pogrom.

and you are contending that Bush has no malice while Modi has

this is an unproductive discussion, i tried to be cryptic in my first response, not going to go further down this rathole.

102 · rob said

OK, so--I just joined VHP-A--for $25.00 for a year. So there. Who'd have thought that Sepia Mutiny would drive mild-mannered me into the arms of the Hindu extremists? I just can't take this Prashad-esque commie BS. Sorry if I offend anyone--I'm actually pretty harmless.

i guess you are the kind of person that lenin would call a useful idiot.

this is a broken analogy. you can be a hindu without being part of the vhp, and certainly without being part of the vhp-a leadership council, as well as leading vhp-a's relief outreach in gujarat.

Yeah--true, for example, I was until today. I just can't take this--Mumbai is attacked by the LeT and the response is "OMG, people are mouthing off against Pakistan." "Mouthing off"-dude, people are dead. B/c they've been attacked by the LeT, which is funded by Pakistan. If you can't deal with that, OK, but realize that it's you who are weird. The rest of us need to get on to recognizing (which includes naming) the enemy and figuring out what to do (and, no, I'm not advocating some knee-jerk bombing just to feel good). And I'll take, for the time being, my friends where I find them. Thus, my (for the first time in my life) interest in the VHP. Thanks, guys.

Neither I nor my parents are members of VHP-A, just FYI. But, these weird attacks (by Prashad et al) on it are going to make me join!! And get my brother to join--he and my sister-in-law are kind of chauvinistic!!

he..he. Kamalahasan (a famous Tamil actor) used to say, these stupid Tamil religious movies will turn many people into atheists. I see that happening here.

All Sonal Shah did was to be part of some religious organisation that her parents are associated with. You need a support group to reinforce your beliefs in one set of religious stories over the other and she chose to remain Hindu and be part of some Hindu org, in this case the VHP of America. Is it a banned organisation in America like the Al-qaeda?. What's wrong with being part of VHP of America ?.

Either the leftists should create their version of Hinduism and ask people to join them or just stay quiet. I see that Vija prashad was talking about some kind of "secular HInduism" of going to dargahs etc.. He is free to propagate that, the only problem is that in order to have a dargah in US you need to have a dead sufi saint in US.

An example of the interplay and close links between leadership of VHP-A and VHP-India. Not to mention that the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council) was always intended from day one for the international spread of Hinduism, and explicitly intended to be organized as chapters around the world.

104 ·

i guess you are the kind of person that lenin would call a useful idiot.

Nahhhh--your causality is going in the wrong direction--I'm viewing the VHP/RSS/etc. as a mean dog on a leash--I'm holding the leash (well, my parents are--they have a lot more $$ than little old me)--and--we're letting it go. So there. Talk to me after the dog has had its bite--I'm fed up and not taking any more for a while.

105 · rob said

Yeah--true, for example, I was until today.

great! supporting hindu extremists is the right solution to defeat pakistani (or whatever adjective you prefer here) extremists.

as for your rant about pakistan, i think i have been pretty clear on where i stand on pakistan.

108 · rob said

I'm viewing the VHP/RSS/etc. as a mean dog on a leash--I'm holding the leash

i guess you need your illusion. you just officially became part of a bunch of murderous goons.

you just officially became part of a bunch of murderous goons.

You know, I never wanted to join, but it's a mean neighborhood.

The causality inferences made on this blog by many commenters are astounding! Razib, where are you??!!

OK, so--I just joined VHP-A--for $25.00 for a year. So there. Who'd have thought that Sepia Mutiny would drive mild-mannered me into the arms of the Hindu extremists? I just can't take this Prashad-esque commie BS. Sorry if I offend anyone--I'm actually pretty harmless.

I chose the same path a few years back. I turned into a Hindutvadi supporting Hindu causes. My "pseudo secular" brother in India is angry and blame that on all the Brahmins that I came into contact with in the US. I told my brother, dude, don't worry, I'm still the low caste, bacon eating kid you know. It is actually the others who pushed me into taking this path. :-)

Razib's prolly off singing bhajans on Easter Island.

112 · Ponniyin Selvan

I chose the same path a few years back. I turned into a Hindutvadi supporting Hindu causes. My "pseudo secular" brother in India is angry and blame that on all the Brahmins that I came into contact with in the US. I told my brother, dude, don't worry, I'm still the low caste, bacon eating kid you know. It is actually the others who pushed me into taking this path. :-)

Wow--thanks! I actually was feeling bad about it--my parents will think I'm a freak--but, my brother and sister-in-law will join, so they've created at least three. Thanks for letting me know I'm not too far off of the equilibrium path. I'll have some bacon for breakfast in your honor! ;-)

"My "pseudo secular" brother in India is angry and blame that on all the Brahmins that I came into contact with in the US"

Strange. All the Brahmins I know are pseudo-secular, squirming, cringing, craven, pitiful, self-haters themselves. I find it hard to believe there are actually some around who are self-affirming. Guess I'm totally moving in the wrong circles. I'd follow rob's example, but then, what if I want to run for public office . . .

I'll have some bacon for breakfast in your honor! ;-)

That will be an honor. I prefer bacon, egg and cheese on a croissant and a small regular hot (delicious) coffee from Dunkin Donuts for an ideal breakfast. :-)

Members of VHP have been recently accused of terrorist attacks against Muslims in 2006 in the state of Maharashtra and are being investigated by India's Anti-Terrorist Service, some of whose members lost their lives in the recent Mumbai attack.

LOL! Well-put, if you have your head in the sand!

ltr: Please give a link to the letter, rather than posting the whole thing. That's too long, and as such, violates our guidelines. You can provide a few excerpts, but there's no reason to give more than a few paragraphs.

That will be an honor. I prefer bacon, egg and cheese on a croissant and a small regular hot (delicious) coffee from Dunkin Donuts for an ideal breakfast. :-)

Consider it done!
Man, I feel freaking liberated!!

I find this letter totally idiotic, for all the reasons that I and others went into above. What do you all want, for heaven's sake? And what can you achieve bu this except harassment of Sonal Shah?

Brack Obama gave a speech denouncing Rev.Wright = Pres. elect Obama does not subscribe to Trinity Church's views.
Sonal Shah unequivocally denounces VHP of India = She is Hindutva-wadi fanatic that needs to be taken down.

Very balanced!!!

@ ltr

That is an excellent letter. I hope the Obama team considers it seriously.

Strange. All the Brahmins I know are pseudo-secular, squirming, cringing, craven, pitiful, self-haters themselves. I find it hard to believe there are actually some around who are self-affirming. Guess I'm totally moving in the wrong circles. I'd follow rob's example, but then, what if I want to run for public office . . .

Yes, that's strange. But my brother is in India and we grew up in Tamilnadu where Brahmins are thought of as the "Hindutvadis". Dravidian movement in Tamilnadu is all about anti Brahminism. (and anti Hinduism)

Guess I'm totally moving in the wrong circles. I'd follow rob's example, but then, what if I want to run for public office . . .

Divya,
The grotesque conjunction of the reality of the Mumbai terror attacks with the nit-picking persecution of Sonal Shah based on "associations" (the latter not by the Sepia bloggers, to be clear!) should set you free--please, throw off the PC shackles and say it loud, "I'm free, I'm free, I'll say what I want." Association with "Hindu extremism" in US politics is, as I tried to say above, pretty cost-free.

This thread is just a lot of hot air. Sonal Shah is not going to be nominated as energy secretary. And that is good for her, because if she is nominated, that will be because they want another Kashkari. If she has any sense, she will stay as far away from that particular position as possible. The way this administration is shaping up, it may actually make sense for her to stay away from DC as well.

115 · Divya

Strange. All the Brahmins I know are pseudo-secular, squirming, cringing, craven, pitiful, self-haters themselves. I find it hard to believe there are actually some around who are self-affirming. Guess I'm totally moving in the wrong circles.

Yeah--you should meet my---uhhh--- very distant cousins. . . . they're tough--and--Brahmin.
:-)

OK, fair enough--what's the link of VHP-A to blood? I mean, specifically--I know that Muslims were slaughtered in Gujarat--I want to see the connection--other than, well, you (i.e., VHP-A) disagree with Camille, ergo you're responsible.

Anyway, the VHP is not the equivalent of the Roman Catholic Church -- kind of a busted analogy, as was mentioned above. I can't speak for Hindus, but I'd be pretty offended if someone tried to make the argument that being Hindu required participation in or support of the VHP-A.

What I want to know, specifically are two things:
1. Is the ideology/platform of the VHP-A predicated on the same vision of Hindutva as the VHP-Bharat?
2. Does the VHP-A promote this through their programming, fundraising, direct involvement, etc.?

I think those are questions worth exploring. Rehashing whether or not you hate Vijay Prashad is pretty useless at this point. We've already gone back and forth on Prashad, and that discussion has very little to do with this discussion at this point.

111 · rob said

You know, I never wanted to join, but it's a mean neighborhood.

well maybe you should read about what the vhp and rss have been up to in the past two decades, and what you have associated with. you can wave prashad as an excuse all you want, but that has nothing to do with what reasonable people might think of the vhp/rss/bjp.

112 · Ponniyin Selvan said

It is actually the others who pushed me into taking this path

what sort of apologia is this? how are you any different than the average radicalized muslim who makes the same excuse in the opposite direction?

124 · rob said

The grotesque conjunction of the reality of the Mumbai terror attacks with the nit-picking persecution of Sonal Shah based on "association

why are you conjoining these two? condemning one doesn't mean getting into bed with the other. i guess prashad is a convenient strawman to justify your interest in consorting with intolerant radical extremists.

replace roman catholic church with Communist party or Citibank. Essentially I was saying that the leadership in one geographical arm of an organization does not mean that you subscribe to the views of other geographies or are accountable for the actions of other geographies. However, ifyou have been actively involved in the activities of another geography then maybe there is some cause for concern.
Again on the whole, it seems to be a much ado about nothing.

Sadly, there have not been any comments on this blog about how hot she is. Is she a MILF ? I say from her photo she is 7/10. Any other opinions.anyone seen her in real life ?

Intern - i think you can let it stand. Palin has been called a MILF on this blog before.

127 · Camille said 2. Does the VHP-A promote this through their programming, fundraising, direct involvement, etc.?

the vhp-a webpabge even now says that "is inspired by the same ideals as those followed by Vishwa Hindu Parishad of Bharat," On its list of significant events, it lists "1987 Sri Rama Janmabhoomi Mukti-Yagna started" among many other things. it admits to actively supporting ekal vidyalaya, a known indoctrination mechanism of the vhp/rss. i do not know if funding for ekal vidyalaya supplied by vhp-a is siphoned off to other vhp activities, given past financial impropriety associated with this endeavor.

yeah, but vhp is going to be the bulwark against the let, so let's get them to lynch some more muslims and christians, and life will be good for everybody.

* To promote unity among Hindus through a network of chapters and likeminded organizations * To establish VHP as the voice of Hindus everywhere and represent Hindu organizations and institutions on matters of Hindu interests * To raise Hindu awareness through seminars, conferences, publications, media and audio-visual aids * To cultivate a spirit of self-respect in Hindu way of life and respect for the people of all colors, creeds, races and religions [linkage]

The whole of the bolded section is problematic in its own right: establishing any one organization as the voice of Hindus everywhere is antithetical to Hinduism.

The first part of the bolded section is unambiguous: not to establish the VHP-A for such a purpose, but the VHP. Please note the care with which they specify "-A" or "of America" throughout other parts of their website.

Later, same page:

The Parishad is of the view that Hindus are those who believe, practice and respect the spiritual and religious principles and practices having roots in India. Thus, Hindus includes Jaina, Baudhha, Sikha and people of different sects and traditions within the Hindu ethos.

105 · rob said

B/c they've been attacked by the LeT, which is funded by Pakistan.

Why this rush to judgment about Pakistan? I think Pakistan can be implicated for its support of the LeT in the most recent attacks just as much as the VHP-A on the Babri Masjid demolition or any of the myriad riots against non-Hindus both at low and intense levels of aggression. Maybe people will be fine when associates of Hafeez Mohammad Saeed of the Jamat ud Dawaa, which as we all know is a purely charitable arm defending the interests of Muslims, is appointed HUD secretary.

133 · ptr_vivek said

not to establish the VHP-A for such a purpose, but the VHP.

Well, VHP is the World Hindu Council after all, the mission is to get the VHP ideology disseminated among Hindus all across the world.

Neither I nor my parents are members of VHP-A, just FYI. But, these weird attacks (by Prashad et al) on it are going to make me join!!

Rob, I've respected you very much in the past and your assertions on this thread have disappointed me as has your decision to join the VHP. But as they say in India 'chotta munh, badi baat, (i.e. pretty much: apologies if this offends you, but I need to say it), here are a couple of very general points:

1. Steve Coll of the New Yorker writes that the Jammat ud Dawa, the charitable arm of Lashkar-e-Taiba (also a front organization that funnels money toward LeT) best cordinated the releif efforts in the Islamabad earthquakes a few years ago. Yet those who support JuD for its charitable work are chanelling money toward LeT and its reprehnsible agenda, and are not pariseworthy. Similarly, the VHP even if it does great charitable work ought not to be supported because it also directs money towards destructive pogroms in India, most recently and brutally in Orissa. It is extremely destructive to fight against terror by pitting the extremists on 'our' side versus the extremists on the 'other' side.

2. Sonal Shah made a very bad decision to be a part of their senior leadership in the US, despite knowing what the VHP was all about and its activities in India. VHP-A is very much linked VHP-I (in the same was HuJI-P is linked to HuJI-B, or LeT w/ JuD or JeM) . People like Vijay Parshad do discredit their own points because of their hysteria. But even without Vijay Parshad's commentary Shah's appointment is problematic. And to the idiot here who described Shah as a proud Hindu woman and her detractors as jealous anti-Hindus -- guess what, there are several ways to be proud Hindus other than joining the VHP. VHP membership is not some kind of Hindu merit badge; you too can buy it for $25 at their website. I hope you realize that Shah is a big girl who is probably willing (or should be) to be held accountable for her choices.

3.Modi may be very pro-development and very efficient, but that alone does not a good leader make (and I've been hearing Suhel Seth at the Delhi Debating Society for several years, so I greatly respect him, but am totally baffled by his volte-face on Modi). Some of his actions are distinctly in violation of the Indian Constitution. Let's not sweep what he did Gujarat under the carpet and just excuse by being a tough 'law and order' kind of guy. Remember, he's (along with Advani, Rajnath Singh, and Togadia) the one that exploited the arrest of the Sadhvi and criticized the ATS (and Hemnant Karkare) for doing their job, branding them 'anti-Hindu.' The army, intelligence agency, the police, and the judiciary are responsible for dealing with terror and have been thwarted time and again because of this politicization of the investigatory and judiciary process, first in the Malegaon case. It is happening again in the Bombay terror attacks, where the first few days the Mumbai police implausibly claimed that there was no local involvement. This has been proved decisively wrong.

4. Rob, are you going to disavow your VHP membership when you're Goldman buddies recommend you for some plum jobs? I'm not sure whether the Yale swish set will quite approve of this new move of yours. :)
Plus, why do you criticize Parshad's Trinity College appointment when plenty else exists can be marshalled against him. Low blows don't become you: stooping to conquer is a sign of desperation.

I'm still the low caste, bacon eating kid you know. It is actually the others who pushed me into taking this path

And, because I'm in Delhi, an update. The 5 recent state assembly elections were supposed to be a verdict on terror. Congress is on the verge of winning 3/5 states. Surprisingly, they might unseat the BJP's ideal bhartiya nari, Vasundhara Raje in super-Hindu Rajasthan, so this could be quite an upset.

You know, I never wanted to join, but it's a mean neighborhood.

The grotesque conjunction of the reality of the Mumbai terror attacks with the nit-picking persecution of Sonal Shah based on "associations" (the latter not by the Sepia bloggers, to be clear!) should set you free--please, throw off the PC shackles and say it loud, "I'm free, I'm free, I'll say what I want."

Association with "Hindu extremism" in US politics is, as I tried to say above, pretty cost-free.

Indian Muslims have the courage of conviction to do this, and in return get garbage behavior like this from self-identified Hindu moderates. This cycle of extremism is going to flush whatever notion there is of India as one united nation down the drain.

port, I have missed you. :)

as a mean dog on a leash--I'm holding the leash (well, my parents are--they have a lot more $$ than little old me)--and--we're letting it go

thanks camille; i do miss the sepia of yore too. the world is too fraught for fluff posts and cordiality these days :)

I'm still the low caste, bacon eating kid you know. It is actually the others who pushed me into taking this path

now, where i have heard this victimization narrative before? oh wait....

I'm surprised that you see victimization in what I said and then equate me to what a terrorist said. I was telling my brother that I've changed into a Hindutvadi not because of the evil Brahmins but by the sloppy secularists and their ridiculous stand on secularism. I give some examples like the treatment of Taslima Nasreen by the so called "secular" Congress and the "super secular" Left.

But then I am not surprised of being abused by "secularists". :-)

what sort of apologia is this? how are you any different than the average radicalized muslim who makes the same excuse in the opposite direction?

Read my comment above. I've consciously decided to support Hindutvadis after being fooled by the so called "secularists" for so long. It is quite obvious that these folks use one stick to measure Hinduism / Hindu organisations and another stick to measure others. It is good that more people are coming out openly in support of Hindutvadis.

I'm different in the sense that I do not want a Hindu Caliphate and special laws for Hindus wherever they live and would want all the problems solved through peaceful methods, debates, discussions and non-violence.

I hope Sonal Shah resigns and declines any offer of a cabinet position rather than subjecting herself to such attacks.

And, because I'm in Delhi, an update. The 5 recent state assembly elections were supposed to be a verdict on terror. Congress is on the verge of winning 3/5 states. Surprisingly, they might unseat the BJP's ideal bhartiya nari, Vasundhara Raje in super-Hindu Rajasthan, so this could be quite an upset.

You can spin these results anyways, BJP was ruling in 3 out of the 5 states before and it will rule 2 out of 5 now, which is not so bad, unlike last time when Congress lost power in Rajasthan and MP but still came back to win Lok Sabha. State elections are decided mostly on state issues.

I'm different in the sense that I do not want a Hindu Caliphate and special laws for Hindus wherever they live and would want all the problems solved through peaceful methods, debates, discussions and non-violence.

Ponniyin Selvan - so how do you feel about the fact that the Sangh was involved in anti-Christian pogroms this year? Or the fact that they're openly opposed to people choosing to Hindus changing religion? Both of are major characteristics, and they're also points of similarity. After all, the RSS was formed precisely as a rejection of "peaceful methods" and the anti-prostelyzation clauses are opposed to debates and discussion.

You can spin these results anyways, BJP was ruling in 3 out of the 5 states before and it will rule 2 out of 5 now

i didn't spin these results, BJP itself claimed that the results were going to be a public verdict wth respect to terrorism.

New Delhi (PTI): Terrorism, the focus of the BJP campaign in the assembly elections in four states, appears to have failed to enthuse voters as the party lost government in Rajasthan and was unable to wrest power in Delhi.

Even in Madhya Pradesh and Chhattisgarh, where the BJP retained power, the victory was attributed by the party leaders to development rather than terror plank.

and if the elections were won/lost on local issues, then the BJP is either misreading the public which doesn't think it's not state govts business to take care of terror, or that the public thinks the BJP is no better than Congress at handling terrorism or both. Even Rajnath Singh can concede but maybe you should work on your hysterical blindness (vijay prashad types exist on the right too):

As electoral results trickled in, BJP President Rajnath Singh virtually admitted the failure of terrorism as a poll plank when he said that local issues played a crucial role in the elections.

if you saw vasundhara raje's ads (heavy advertsising on the hindi news channels) even before mumbai terror attacks you'd see that the entire focus was on terrorism followed by 'mehengai. (inflation/rising prices)' all i'm trying to say that the hindutva faction was wrong in claiming that the bungling in fighting terror was gonna be their golden ticket. it wasn't. either they were wrong or not good enough or both. pick your poison. i hope you can at least justify funding communalism and violence from outside india to yourself. togadia thanks you for your sponsoring a twinkling trident.

143 · Ponniyin Selvan said

It is quite obvious that these folks use one stick to measure Hinduism / Hindu organisations and another stick to measure others. It is good that more people are coming out openly in support of Hindutvadis.

yes, so that they can use the same stick to measure both kinds of extremists.

and would want all the problems solved through peaceful methods, debates, discussions and non-violence.

yes. and the moon is made of green cheese. you are a sympathizer of extremists who you think support your cause, that is all. no difference. you latch on to issues such as taslima or civil code or hajj subsidies, blithely ignoring and devaluing a long sordid modern history of terrorization of muslims that goes back at least to bhagalpur, if not before that, as well as the real tangible fact of the developmental blackhole that muslims are in india. spare me the pathetic rationalizations.

I do not want a Hindu Caliphate and special laws for Hindus wherever they live

yes, i believe the preferred bjp/vhp/rss terms for this are "rashtra" and "hindu dharma"

Of course I have a strong opinion about this, but do not want to add to it lest I spoil the cordiality by siding with the Hindutva-Nazi-Fascist-Racists...I think every responsible "South Asian"-American should protest lest she becomes Modi's Fawn Hall...

Has anyone noticed the hilariously different reactions in the comments about Sonal Shah and Huma Abedin? I guess Sonal Shah IS more of a liability towards the affirmation of the "South Asian" identity...

so how do you feel about the fact that the Sangh was involved in anti-Christian pogroms this year? Or the fact that they're openly opposed to people choosing to Hindus changing religion? Both of are major characteristics, and they're also points of similarity. After all, the RSS was formed precisely as a rejection of "peaceful methods" and the anti-prostelyzation clauses are opposed to debates and discussion.

I'm totally against violent methods and condemn any sort of force. I don't buy the root cause theory of the murder of the anti conversion swami by the Christians. Nothing justifies violence.

149 · Ponniyin Selvan said

I'm totally against violent methods and condemn any sort of force.

ah. that totally clarifies why you support the vhp/rss/bjp axis and people of the ilk of advani/thackeray/modi.

148 · Rahul(witha)D said

Has anyone noticed the hilariously different reactions in the comments about Sonal Shah and Huma Abedin?

huma abedin is definitely hotter, but my stand is anything if not consistent. unlike ponniyin selvan who claims to be an ahimsa enthusiast but pays membership dues to the VHP. so glance at your own ranks first. since hmf has disappeared, i'm keeping it real as a matter of public service.

149 · Ponniyin Selvan said

Nothing justifies violence.

Funding violence is justified though.

I'm totally against violent methods and condemn any sort of force.

138 · gbs said

Indian Muslims have the courage of conviction to do this, and in return get garbage behavior like this from self-identified Hindu moderates. This cycle of extremism is going to flush whatever notion there is of India as one united nation down the drain.

along with investment

154 · Raj said

along with investment

yep. once the civil fabric is ripped apart with the kind of limited conflicts in various parts of the country (like naxalite/northeast etc.) becoming far more pervasive and ingrained and large sections of the populace alienated, normal function will be close to impossible.

gbs...

I'm a Republican, there are other people who associate themselves with my party who are:
1. Evangelists who believe that as a Hindu I'm a sinner
2. Supremacists who believe that as a non-white, I dont deserve the same rights as them
3. Nationalists who believe that I shouldn't have immigrated here in the first place

But I'm a Republican because I believe that the party is the best protector of MY interests, my values and my culture.

Do you honestly believe that everyone who associates themselves with the VHP or BJP is a racist? That they want to have some Bajrang Dal goons drag Muslim women in the streets? You can sit here thousands of miles away and paint people by the same brush but just from your comments I can tell you that you know nothing of the ground realities in India.

Lets do some simple math...India is a poor country, there are 9 times Hindus as there are Muslims...So while the percentage of poor Muslims maybe larger, their numbers aren't. If you can make sociological cases for why Muslims are picking up arms, then you can make a much better case for why Hindus are indulging in such rhetoric. However, a rigorous understanding of these dynamics is so far beyond the scope of this post. I don't mean to point out the moral and intellectual paucity of the points you are using to bait Ponniyin Selvan trying to make, but ...give it a break...

156 · Rahul(witha)D said

You can sit here thousands of miles away and paint people by the same brush but just from your comments I can tell you that you know nothing of the ground realities in India.

thanks for your fair and balanced summary.

If you can make sociological cases for why Muslims are picking up arms

i think i have made it very clear that i have no sympathy for these excuses either.

I don't mean to point out the moral and intellectual paucity of the points you are using to bait Ponniyin Selvan trying to make

you didn't, so it's all good.

156 · Rahul(witha)D said

But I'm a Republican because I believe that the party is the best protector of MY interests, my values and my culture.

how much earth of others you are willing to scorch in the excuse of advancing YOUR own interests and culture says a lot about the quality of the values you hold dear.

151 · portmanteau said

so glance at your own ranks first.

Im a Hindu-Fascist VHP member too now, because I chose to tread a middle ground?

156 · Rahul(witha)D said

you can make a much better case for why Hindus are indulging in such rhetoric.

if you want to do so, fine. but don't pretend to be a moderate or delude yourself into thinking you are one while doing it, garv se kaho hum extremist hain!

i didn't spin these results, BJP itself claimed that the results were going to be a public verdict wth respect to terrorism.

I read the three links. The first one is from a "Hindu" reporter who claims that Rajnath Singh virtually admitted the failure. If some one uses terms like "virtual admission", it implies a spin. :-)

The second link is just a boast talk from any politician. Probably the Congress would have said the same thing. We'll do well in six state elections.

The third link talks about "terrorism" an issue to be used for the impending general elections, which I think is the true case. Congress can feel free to ignore the issue.

Actually these results are better than I expected for the BJP. I expected the BJP to lose MP, Rajasthan and Chattisgarh and gain Delhi. I was wrong.

i hope you can at least justify funding communalism and violence from outside india to yourself. togadia thanks you for your sponsoring a twinkling trident.

You are welcome.

Do you honestly believe that everyone who associates themselves with the VHP or BJP is a racist

The issue here is that Sonal was in the VHPA leadership. Given that the VHPA was formed to carry out the VHP's mission in America, and openly shares the same aims, isn't this reasonable grounds upon which to ask questions about Sonal Shah's beliefs?

People keep confusing very different things. We're not talking about Average Hindus, or Average VHP members, we're talking about a member of the VHPA leadership.

I don't think that should disqualify her, but I do think it raises important questions. If you want to be even handed, think of how people would feel about a candidate for government office who was a member of the American Friends of the Likud or the American Friends of the Tamil Tigers or the IRA-America? Their membership would be a source of concern, no?

Do you honestly believe that everyone who associates themselves with the VHP or BJP is a racist?

bottomline: condemning hindu extremism != supporting islamic extremism/terrorism: you should know that.

the republican party and vhp analogy is so broken that it is laughable.

If you can make sociological cases for why Muslims are picking up arms, then you can make a much better case for why Hindus are indulging in such rhetoric.

ah. that totally clarifies why you support the vhp/rss/bjp axis and people of the ilk of advani/thackeray/modi.

That's right.

Rob, Ponniyin,
A quick word on mean pit bulls and talking tough.
Sena goons were nowhere to be seen when Mumbai was taken over by terrorists. Guess they were too busy beating up some poor editor of a marathi daily? Advani talks tough on terrorism. He was going to “get” Dawood. Some people I know has comical Mossad fantasies about that one. BJP came and went, Dawood is still at large.

Baqwaas coming from dogma-addled fools is morally reprehensible and all, but a very weak excuse to join saffron nation. Murderers from group a, not much better than murderers from group b.

Alright dude, I think your wannabe-glib rhetoric is pretty aggravating but its early in the morning and I need to have a productive day so I'll make this short...

Your basic point was this...Anyone who associates themselves with the VHP, BJP and RHS is a racist...I tried pointing out that when there is a singular mouthpiece you try to make the most of it and steer an organization towards your values.

Im not a libertarian, when I meant "my interests" I meant that of my unit, my community, my friends, my country...but thankfully, you affirmed my evaluation of you by taking a very limited view of what I said.

Learn to understand other people before you deliver your opinion of what they should do...And until you demonstrate that basic capability, you will just be the equivalent of exactly what you are posturing to be are preaching against...

Cu è surdu, orbu e taci, campa cent'anni 'mpaci

has had comical Mossad fantasies about that one

162 · Memory said

don't think that should disqualify her, but I do think it raises important questions. If you want to be even handed, think of how people would feel about a candidate for government office who was a member of the American Friends of the Likud or the American Friends of the Tamil Tigers or the IRA-America? Their membership would be a source of concern, no?

I'm sorry how is it not a valid concern then for another Individual whose mother is the President (Leader) of a Religious University in Saudi Arabia...

There has to be a rationalization for self-hatred, we can't always go "look-a-here Herschel." The logic in this thread is that it is politically incorrect to be associated with a Hindu organization and that is just baffling.

163 · portmanteau said

the republican party and vhp analogy is so broken that it is laughable.

further, the extremist agenda of the vhp as well as its violent actions have continuously been encouraged, endorsed and supported by the vhp leadership and the sangh parivar from the top down.

162 · Memory said

People keep confusing very different things. We're not talking about Average Hindus, or Average VHP members, we're talking about a member of the VHPA leadership.

yes. i think that being an average vhp-a member (or a hindu) in the us is no reason at all for people to get upset at her (although i do not think the analogue is true for vhp in india, but that's not relevant to sonal shah's choices to be part of the leadership team of vhp-a, as well as direct her involvement in relief in gujarat through vhp-a).

165 · Amol said

A quick word on mean pit bulls and talking tough.
Sena goons were nowhere to be seen when Mumbai was taken over by terrorists. Guess they were too busy beating up some poor editor of a marathi daily? Advani talks tough on terrorism. He was going to “get” Dawood. Some people I know has comical Mossad fantasies about that one. BJP came and went, Dawood is still at large.

I think goons is too mild of a word for these misguided idiots but hey at least they weren't stupid enough to go up against the AK 47s with their Lathis...or would you have preferred they would have?

168 · RahulD said

162 · Memory said

don't think that should disqualify her, but I do think it raises important questions. If you want to be even handed, think of how people would feel about a candidate for government office who was a member of the American Friends of the Likud or the American Friends of the Tamil Tigers or the IRA-America? Their membership would be a source of concern, no?

I'm sorry how is it not a valid concern then for another Individual whose mother is the President (Leader) of a Religious University in Saudi Arabia...

There has to be a rationalization for self-hatred, we can't always go "look-a-here Herschel." The logic in this thread is that it is politically incorrect to be associated with a Hindu organization and that is just baffling.

Check out Rahm Emmanuel.

165 · Amol said

Sena goons were nowhere to be seen when Mumbai was taken over by terrorists.

now come on. raj thackeray was kind enough to permit commandos from all over india, including bihar and up, into aamchi mumbai. if this is not generosity, i don't know what is.

but thankfully, you affirmed my evaluation of you by taking a very limited view of what I said.

i am not interested in defending my credentials against your ad hominem attacks. if you are capable of arguing by any ground other than assertion or ad hominem, i'd be interested in hearing it.

whose mother is the President (Leader) of a Religious University in Saudi Arabia...

my argument against sonal shah is based on her choices as an adult. sat anal 101.

Clinton, Abedin, Shah, Emmanuel...

Obama is putting together a diverse team.

Maybe he'll chill out with Rumsfeld and Cheney on the weekends although I wouldn't recommend any hunting trips.

162 · Memory said

bottomline: condemning hindu extremism != supporting islamic extremism/terrorism: you should know that.

That thought process was kinda broken I admit, I was in the process of getting ready...and my girlfriend called to find out the nutritional information of something at Sonic and lost my chain of thought...

What I was trying to say was that Individuals tend to gravitate towards ideas that reflect their worldview...and these days because of information flow, and the methods of information flow, the prevalance of death and just general instability the individuals who are affected by salient events are moving towards what they consider stable/large organizations (holy run-on sentence batman!) ...the characeristics of individuals who gravitate towards an ideological umbrella can sometimes end up being widely divergent...

If that doesn't make sense, I will explain better later...

165 · Amol said

Advani talks tough on terrorism. He was going to “get” Dawood.

speaking of analogies, that crazy talk does sound eerily familiar :)

Has anyone here had the opportunity to talk with Sonal Shah? Is she dismissive or open to explain? Does she see the conflict or think there is no problem and not see that others may have a problem or at least from her point of view a misunderstanding? Does she act like "The Decider" or is her stance defensive?

I think goons is too mild of a word for these misguided idiots but hey at least they weren't stupid enough to go up against the AK 47s with their Lathis...or would you have preferred they would have?

174 · RahulD said

162 · Memory said

bottomline: condemning hindu extremism != supporting islamic extremism/terrorism: you should know that.

That thought process was kinda broken I admit, I was in the process of getting ready...and my girlfriend called to find out the nutritional information of something at Sonic and lost my chain of thought...

What I was trying to say was that Individuals tend to gravitate towards ideas that reflect their worldview...and these days because of information flow, and the methods of information flow, the prevalance of death and just general instability the individuals who are affected by salient events are moving towards what they consider stable/large organizations (holy run-on sentence batman!) ...the characeristics of individuals who gravitate towards an ideological umbrella can sometimes end up being widely divergent...

If that doesn't make sense, I will explain better later...

"Politics makes strange bedfellows"

172 · gbs said

i am not interested in defending my credentials against your ad hominem attacks. if you are capable of arguing by any ground other than assertion or ad hominem, i'd be interested in hearing it.

The minimum requirement for dialectic is the existence of an open mind...or the demonstration of the capability to process disonant information...just because you said that you would be interested to hear it does not make me believe that it is worth my time to explain it to someone who has made about 30 posts constanly espousing and regurgitating a very limited point of view whilst disparaging the other side...

No thanks, Id rather take a flying fck on a rolling donut...

Have a good day...

179 · RahulD said

just because you said that you would be interested to hear it does not make me believe that it is worth my time to explain it

hmm... cutting and running because of the lack of an argument, methinks. enjoy your day too.

47 · Camille said

Go Sonal!, is it easier to trade pot-shots than flesh out an actual argument or accusation? The concern is not with her being Hindu or a woman, but rather, in whether or not she has furthered, supported, or funded an organization (VHP-Bharat) that promotes a narrow view of Indian identity and citizenship that supports/promotes communalistic violence as one of its tactics. Or, is your definition of "pride" equivalent to a narrow vision of violence wrapped in the rhetoric of Hinduism?

Sonal's problem - no crime - is simple being a Hindu. That's all. Anything to do with Hinduism in the US or anywhere else in the world is fair game for the PC/loony-left crowd. The message is very clear. Not a word shall be spoken in favour or in defence of Hindus and Hinduism. Hindus are expendable. The other day Shah Rukh Khan accepted an award from the Malaysian government. Is anyone questioning his secular credentials for that? The Malayasian govenment has recently banned the Hindu Rights and Action Forum and thrown its leaders into jail for protesting the destruction of Hindu Kovils in Malaysia. Hypocrisy.

sat anal 101.

ps: y'all BJP supporters have a beacon of hope. bharat's pre-eminent bahu smriti irani is on TV, and she is bloody eloquent. i predict that she will be BJP president one day. she does regressive so much better than sushma swaraj.

181 · jyotsana said

47 · Camille said

Go Sonal!, is it easier to trade pot-shots than flesh out an actual argument or accusation? The concern is not with her being Hindu or a woman, but rather, in whether or not she has furthered, supported, or funded an organization (VHP-Bharat) that promotes a narrow view of Indian identity and citizenship that supports/promotes communalistic violence as one of its tactics. Or, is your definition of "pride" equivalent to a narrow vision of violence wrapped in the rhetoric of Hinduism?

Sonal's problem - no crime - is simple being a Hindu. That's all. Anything to do with Hinduism in the US or anywhere else in the world is fair game for the PC/loony-left crowd. The message is very clear. Not a word shall be spoken in favour or in defence of Hindus and Hinduism. Hindus are expendable. The other day Shah Rukh Khan accepted an award from the Malaysian government. Is anyone questioning his secular credentials for that? The Malayasian govenment has recently banned the Hindu Rights and Action Forum and thrown its leaders into jail for protesting the destruction of Hindu Kovils in Malaysia. Hypocrisy.

(((((Anything to do with Islam in the US or anywhere else in the world is fair game for the neo-con, conservative, anything but liberal even if it deletes the constitution from the people's heads... crowd.

But as someone else pointed out there are also many "conservatives"(what are they conserving?) (Ron Paul - is the only one left in Republican Party) in the U.S. that are anti-Hindu as well.

Unless Shah Rukh Khan is going to be running for office anywhere anytime soon, I'm not sure why he matters.

Extremists are keeping the cycle going. The only way to break it is to not be an extremist. There are extremists of every flavor and each has done its part.)))

The logic in this thread is that it is politically incorrect to be associated with a Hindu organization and that is just baffling.

Don't be baffled. The truth of the matter is that it *is* politically correct to bash hindus (just as it is politically correct to bash xtians, although the consequences are less pernicious in their case). Two thirds of the world's population is brought up to believe that idol worship is evil. On top of that hindus have the so-called caste system. No matter how much people claim to respect all religions, they cannot get past these two features of so-called hinduism. Unless hinduism resembles them in these features it can get no respect. These things are deeply internalized and often not deliberate. This makes it legit to constantly heap all kinds of dung on hindus. SM is no different - as was evidenced by the uproar at the use of the word Islamofascist, while the term Hindu fascist has used liberally on this blog. I don't think this can be solved through reasoning because reason, facts and figures support the fact that in terms of the amount of evil perpetrated in the world, Christianty and Islam are in competition for the crown. The sort of thing that vhp and rss are doing is par for the course for both of these religions. Spreading the faith it is called. When hindus attempt such a thing it is fascism.

Not a word shall be spoken in favour or in defence of Hindus and Hinduism. Hindus are expendable.

181 · jyotsana said

The other day Shah Rukh Khan accepted an award from the Malaysian government. Is anyone questioning his secular credentials for that? The Malayasian govenment has recently banned the Hindu Rights and Action Forum and thrown its leaders into jail for protesting the destruction of Hindu Kovils in Malaysia. Hypocrisy.

i think the malaysian govts sordid human rights record and religious discrimination has not gotten enough airplay primarily due to class reasons. it should and shah rukh khan should have ideally not legitimized the award. this (dated) article from b. raman, no shrinking muslim apologist, makes the class point among other things.

p.s: this hindu victimization saga is getting old. can't hindu and muslim self pitiers get together on a single board and whine to each other about how misunderstood they are?

184 · Divya said

Spreading the faith it is called. When hindus attempt such a thing it is fascism.

i am no sympathizer of evangelical xtianity, but unless you have evidence that the dominant strains of xtian missionary work involve burning temples and villages and threats of retribution, i don't think the labels are comparable.

my previous comment was specifically in the context of india (evangelical xtians do a lot of harm in africa, especially in aids prevention and relief). as for the caste system, are you indicating that it is either a non-issue in india, or that it has desirable properties in modern india?

183 · Raj said

Extremists are keeping the cycle going. The only way to break it is to not be an extremist. There are extremists of every flavor and each has done its part.

well said. attempting to try and see the world from the other person's shoes instead of blinkered (and myopic) delusions/perceptions of self-interest will do the world a whole load of good. and this is not huggie-touchy-feely pap that excludes strong self defense and protection from extremists.

Divya: #184

Nice comment. I completely agree with you.

Yeah, if you are fighting a few twenty year olds who are using automatic weapons and mobile explosive launchers with rifles that look like what the Indian army is using in Indiana Jones part 2 you have somewhat of a defense problem. When calling your troops in takes 10-12 hours to travel from the capital, you have a defense problem.

India has a navy, does it have a coast guard? Does it have port security? Is all the money alloted for these things going to corrupt politicians(retorical)?

When the only way to get things done is by being divisive amongst your own people you aren't really getting things done.

The truth of the matter is that it *is* politically correct to bash hindus

i'm glad you are swimming against the tide, especially in these lord/bhagwan-forsaken times our land is now ruled by the secret muslim barack HUSSAIN obama.

the truth is that in the real world of america it is much easier to criticize muslims, but the coastal republicans and overseas hindutvavadis* have a persecution complex, so it's not surprising that they get bitter, and cling to the narrative of purported pacificism against the terrorists, the war on christmas, and lou dobbs.

*i'm not calling you a coastal republican or overseas hindutva-vasi divya. just general commentary.

156 · Rahul(witha)D said

gbs...

I'm a Republican, there are other people who associate themselves with my party who are:
1. Evangelists who believe that as a Hindu I'm a sinner
2. Supremacists who believe that as a non-white, I dont deserve the same rights as them
3. Nationalists who believe that I shouldn't have immigrated here in the first place

But I'm a Republican because I believe that the party is the best protector of MY interests, my values and my culture.

Do you honestly believe that everyone who associates themselves with the VHP or BJP is a racist?

I think it was Hannah Arendt who said that you can be at max two of the following three: decent; intelligent; nazi. Feel free to substitute Republican 1994-2008 or VHP member there and draw your own conclusons based on introspection ;)

91 · Amrita said

No, we should just get the hell out of the way of her professional life, that's all. She's not "representing" South Asians or any section ofthe electorate in an appointed position.

So basically, you just disagree with the idea of democracy? of people in power or moving up the ranks of power being asked questions? being asked to answer those questions? being called out when they lie about them? being denied access to more power until they account to people? i'm perfectly happy for her to either get out of mainstream politics or to provide a more compelling and detailed explanation-- it's not going to go to jail for her ties to vhp-a like she likely would if she were palestinian or lebanese shi'a and doing similar stuff with hamas or hezbollah - she hasn't even taken a stand against THOSE types of activities - it all seems very self-serving, and i'm not getting out of the way until i am assured that i am wrong.

and whether she likes it or not, she quite clearly is in a position of higher power in the 2nd generation south asian community in the united states, and has benefited from that status through the indo-american change award indicorps etc. you can see from the number of supporters she has that she and her work have touched eople's hopes about her, letting vhp release information about her, not addressing it directly, allowing it to get the point where santorum is commenting?

vijay prashad was not the first to raise these issues about her (and many other organizations) nor will he be the last...guarantee you, as long as she seeks to be a public official in what some of us perhaps naively still believe has elements of democracy.

unlike ponniyin selvan who claims to be an ahimsa enthusiast but pays membership dues to the VHP.

he..he.. I don't pay membership dues to VHP. I donate to IDRF. I'm impressed by their Ekal vidyalayas. where one volunteer goes to remote places to educate kids, more like the missionaries. It's all good stuff.

How big of a difference is there between the RSS and VHP? I personally know some very decent old people who were members of RSS in India in their youth.

187 · gbs said

i am no sympathizer of evangelical xtianity, but unless you have evidence that the dominant strains of xtian missionary work involve burning temples and villages and threats of retribution, i don't think the labels are comparable.

This is why I said that you had idea of the ground realities or history of India...try expanding your knowledge base before you make any sort of points until then I won't need to point out the obvious gaps in your knowledge...

I'm hardly a Hindu-fascist, its almost laughable that you have been constantly trying to pigeon-hole me...I go to an Croatian Orthodox or a Chinese Catholic church for no reason other than the fact that it is spiritually expedient to get ready and only traverse about a block or so in one direction or another from my house on hungover sunday mornings.

The fallacy in your logic (or the lack of it) is that you are criticizing something without actually putting for a point of view of your own. Your stance is that individuals who ascribe affinity to Hindu (substitute X ideology) organizations for ANY moral/spiritual/political reasons are the same as any individual who was rampaging down the streets of Godhra torching houses. I'm unable topresent a counterpoint basically because I cannot (in my admittedly limited mental capacity) find what facts or philosophy I'm supposed to be juxtaposing my arguments against!

Dr. Am...I would've figured you to be the last person to Goodwin a thread...But thank you for Hannah Arendt; as usual, between you and Google - I learned something new. You and Razib somehow validate overcoming my reluctance to indulge in comments, curse you!

197 · RahulD said

its almost laughable that you have been constantly trying to pigeon-hole me...

wow, defensive much? i've never tried to pigeonhole you, but these tedious meta discussions of why you cannot defend your point of view are not my cup of tea, so fk on a flying donut or whatever your idea of a good day is.

186 · gbs said

p.s: this hindu victimization saga is getting old. can't hindu and muslim self pitiers get together on a single board and whine to each other about how misunderstood they are?

GBS,

That's a perfect 2/3/4/5-step dance in play - played to perfection. First claim Hindus are evil, then claim Hindus who defend or speak up are evil, next claim that Hindus aren't victims ever, anyhwere - and then when confronted with evidence, claim victims are self-pitying whiners.

i am no sympathizer of evangelical xtianity, but unless you have evidence that the dominant strains of xtian missionary work involve burning temples and villages and threats of retribution, i don't think the labels are comparable.

In Northeastern India that's what happens.

And that is ignoring all the scurrilious pamphlets and tracts that are distributed outside kovils and mandirs in S.India. It took concerted action to keep soul-harvesters from preying on hte public in the queues at the Balaji Mandir in Tirupati. In Karnataka too the notorious New Life Mission attracted complaints for distributing scurrilious tracts two years ago. Currently the ruling party in Tamil Nadu is financing a movie that is going to be trotting out evangelical Xtian mythology about Tiruvalluvar. That's like mainstraming the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which BTW is an eternally popular TV show theme in some parts of the world.

LGF, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, and Freerepublic aren't our source of information on Huma Abedin right? And isn't it funny even here on SM there has never been a single post about CAIR?

184 · Divya said

Don't be baffled. The truth of the matter is that it *is* politically correct to bash hindus (just as it is politically correct to bash xtians, although the consequences are less pernicious in their case). Two thirds of the world's population is brought up to believe that idol worship is evil. On top of that hindus have the so-called caste system. No matter how much people claim to respect all religions, they cannot get past these two features of so-called hinduism. Unless hinduism resembles them in these features it can get no respect. These things are deeply internalized and often not deliberate. This makes it legit to constantly heap all kinds of dung on hindus. SM is no different - as was evidenced by the uproar at the use of the word Islamofascist, while the term Hindu fascist has used liberally on this blog. I don't think this can be solved through reasoning because reason, facts and figures support the fact that in terms of the amount of evil perpetrated in the world, Christianty and Islam are in competition for the crown. The sort of thing that vhp and rss are doing is par for the course for both of these religions. Spreading the faith it is called. When hindus attempt such a thing it is fascism.

What the hell is this horseshit? in case you haven't noticed, the most populous country in the world is majority hindu (by far) and has received all kinds of plaudits in the western press. i grew up in the united state in the time of dotbusters and random kids i had never met saying "fill 'er up" on the way there and nearly getting in a bar fight because someone called me a dotbuster. Now i live in london where the level of idiocy (not necessarily malevolence) i see on a daily/weekly basis puts the u.s. to shame.

and yet, i still think it's a problem if a bunch of people go out and kill a bunch of christians (who were/are dalits), who rape women in the name of religion, and who hatineer state sponsored massacres of muslims and women and babies, denial of justice to the victims for year, etc. You know wshy? because i'm not f"£king psycho. There's a level of decency that we should expect from other people - this a basic norm, not "political correctness." you can say what you want to, but if you tacitly support's rderers or justify their ideology - the same way that bush does for u.s. imperialism and sarah palin does for christian fundamentalist / racism / redbaiting and modi does for hindu fundamentalism and osama bin laden ot Adem Gadahn do for whatever version of salafi nihilism he's invested in, you're a dipshit. so get over yourselfa, wake up, look at some pictures of what actually happened at godhra or in orissa or elsewhere - and if you want to extend it to the massacres of sikhs in 1984 or to nandigram or other things, then do so. but for christ's sake, stop justifying murder and violence and fascism in the name of what was aptly described below as a persecution complex. no one is out to get you except yourself.

199 · jyotsana said

That's a perfect 2/3/4/5-step dance in play - played to perfection.

thank you. i always appreciate a fan.

199 · jyotsana said

First claim Hindus are evil, then claim Hindus who defend or speak up are evil, next claim that Hindus aren't victims ever, anyhwere

except i didn't make any of these claims, so that dance you are seeing is from shadows in your head.

"i am no sympathizer of evangelical xtianity, but unless you have evidence that the dominant strains of xtian missionary work involve burning temples and villages and threats of retribution..."

this is not a defence of the vhp, but missionary-supported violence is not unheard of in india, especially the northeast:

From the BBC (2000):

Nagmanlal Halam, secretary of the Noapara Baptist Church in Tripura, was arrested late on Monday with a large quantity of explosives.

Mr Sarkar said that allegations about the close links between the state's Baptist Church and the rebel National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) have long been made by political parties and police.

...The NLFT is accused of forcing Tripura's indigenous tribes to become Christians and give up Hindu forms of worship in areas under their control.

Last year, they issued a ban on the Hindu festivals of Durga Puja and Saraswati Puja.

The NLFT manifesto says that they want to expand what they describe as the kingdom of God and Christ in Tripura."

another BBC article, i think, mentioned the funding for this organization flowing from foreign Baptist churches.

Dr. Am...I would've figured you to be the last person to Goodwin a thread...But thank you for Hannah Arendt; as usual, between you and Google - I learned something new. You and Razib somehow validate overcoming my reluctance to indulge in comments, curse you!

Thanks for the kind words, RahulD. it's godwin, though - to goodwin a thread would probably mean to inject 18th century american presidential history into it :) hannah is good :)

on an aside, i think introducing modi or maybe "islam" is how you godwin a thread in desi spheres, not hitler :) it's a little like how they sell mein kampf on the street corneres of new delhi - different space, different rules.

Thanks...Appreciate the advice...But again...you have failed to state what Im supposed to be arguing against or why what I've stated is wrong...

Would this approach be of more benifit in approaching your viewpoints?

I personally know some very decent old people who were members of RSS in India in their youth.

203 · Whose God is it anyways? said

this is not a defence of the vhp, but missionary-supported violence is not unheard of in india, especially the northeast:

yep, thanks. this sounds like christian terrorism to me, alright. didnt leap to mind because i didnt remember recent incidents of that ilk, but the northeast is rife with all kinds of extremism.

204 · dr amonymous said

's godwin, though - to goodwin a

My bad on Godwin, sleep deprivation...trying to write a research proposal on enhancing the Cultural Worldview of military interpreters by providing gradually dissonant information that alleviates anxiety and reduces arousal (Terror Management Theory stuff)

And as you can tell, Im stuck on writing a succinct title...

205 was directed towards gbs or whatever his ID was

200 · dr amonymous said

184 · Divya said

Don't be baffled. The truth of the matter is that it *is* politically correct to bash hindus (just as it is politically correct to bash xtians, although the consequences are less pernicious in their case). Two thirds of the world's population is brought up to believe that idol worship is evil. On top of that hindus have the so-called caste system. No matter how much people claim to respect all religions, they cannot get past these two features of so-called hinduism. Unless hinduism resembles them in these features it can get no respect. These things are deeply internalized and often not deliberate. This makes it legit to constantly heap all kinds of dung on hindus. SM is no different - as was evidenced by the uproar at the use of the word Islamofascist, while the term Hindu fascist has used liberally on this blog. I don't think this can be solved through reasoning because reason, facts and figures support the fact that in terms of the amount of evil perpetrated in the world, Christianty and Islam are in competition for the crown. The sort of thing that vhp and rss are doing is par for the course for both of these religions. Spreading the faith it is called. When hindus attempt such a thing it is fascism.

What the hell is this horseshit? in case you haven't noticed, the most populous country in the world is majority hindu (by far) and has received all kinds of plaudits in the western press. i grew up in the united state in the time of dotbusters and random kids i had never met saying "fill 'er up" on the way there and nearly getting in a bar fight because someone called me a dotbuster. Now i live in london where the level of idiocy (not necessarily malevolence) i see on a daily/weekly basis puts the u.s. to shame.

and yet, i still think it's a problem if a bunch of people go out and kill a bunch of christians (who were/are dalits), who rape women in the name of religion, and who hatineer state sponsored massacres of muslims and women and babies, denial of justice to the victims for year, etc. You know wshy? because i'm not f"£king psycho. There's a level of decency that we should expect from other people - this a basic norm, not "political correctness." you can say what you want to, but if you tacitly support's rderers or justify their ideology - the same way that bush does for u.s. imperialism and sarah palin does for christian fundamentalist / racism / redbaiting and modi does for hindu fundamentalism and osama bin laden ot Adem Gadahn do for whatever version of salafi nihilism he's invested in, you're a dipshit. so get over yourselfa, wake up, look at some pictures of what actually happened at godhra or in orissa or elsewhere - and if you want to extend it to the massacres of sikhs in 1984 or to nandigram or other things, then do so. but for christ's sake, stop justifying murder and violence and fascism in the name of what was aptly described below as a persecution complex. no one is out to get you except yourself.

Unfortunately, many are not able to see that there are extremists from ALL religions and groups. Once you realize that even people in your group (whomever you are) can be extremists you will start to fight against idiots and not blanket whole groups as pious and evil.

If you are human it should make you want to vomit when you see the videos of Brahmins joking about how they raped Dalit women in the street (which were posted on Sepia Mutiny before).

If you are human you will have issues with U.S. foriegn policy that kills and plots people against their neighbors.

If you are human you will be ashamed that someone claiming your religion incited such young men to do such evil things.

The persecution complex is real and whomever has the biggest budget this week is going to win the sympathy and have their own group's wrong doings over looked.

Its a cycle and if it comes to people of your group it didn't just happen out of nowhere.

Ignorance isn't bliss and when you wake up it will be the best thing to end the cycle of violence and hate.

206 · portmanteau said

I personally know some very decent old people who were members of RSS in India in their youth.

older members of my family also tell me that RSS were phenomenal volunteers during the partition and were very helpful for it. for what it's worth, much of my family is very pro-bjp and pro-rss. but the recent behavior wrt to the ATS, malegaon blasts, the good works of VHP in Orissa, as well as Raj Thackeray's histrionics have made them reconsider.

In general, except from what we have seen here with Rob's membership, the VHP consists of people who are ritually observant. It's not in their platform but per my observation it does seem to attract many of the "Dalits have it so easy" crowd who whine & whinge about reservation etc though I know just as many people who are active in the org that believe caste is Hinduism's greatest scourge. Many of the old RSS guys are agnostic or atheist and use Hindu in a more realistic way to mean anyone of a non-Muslim/Christian South Asian background regardless of belief (contrast with the VHP which equates Vedic religion with Hinduism). I think this group has been taken over by VHP types which is why you pbly see an old guard quite different from the new batch

>I hope Sonal Shah resigns and declines any offer of a cabinet position

Tch tch, all this useless talk over a speculated energy secretary nomination, which ain't gonna happen.

The energy appointment will show whether Obama is for real, or just another well-executed Hollywood script. Energy is the most important position in this administration, given Obama's stated plans. Everything else -- state, defence, finance -- are firefighting operations. The finance job is nothing more than a printing press operator.

The energy person will be in charge of two goals: moving the US to renewable energy, and re-industrialising America. No mean feat by themselves, but almost impossible when up against the lobbying power of established energy titans and the Saudis, and a whole host of other folks who depend on the petro dollar.

There is only person from the Desi community, perhaps even the larger population, who has the technical and financial expertise, vision, connections, and the bullheadedness needed for the energy position -- Vinod Khosla.

184 · Divya on December 8, 2008 10:04 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
The sort of thing that vhp and rss are doing is par for the course for both of these religions. Spreading the faith it is called. When hindus attempt such a thing it is fascism.

My political knowledge started around when Ram Janmabhoomi happened and I was playing with my Muslim friends in a fenced community a mile away from where Hindus and Muslims were killing each other...and we just so happened to see one such incident go down...So I know what the VHP became to Indians of my generation...I wasn't in India during Godhra, I wasn't there during the recent blasts in Bombay...I obviously wasn't there last week. I agree with you to the extent that some of the people who are calling VHP and RHS as fascist organizations have not only NEVER been there, they aren't even informed properly of the situation or the processes but judge it from whatever arbitrary moment they decided to become politically aware of India (last week??)

I guess we can make the argument that what the VHP and RSS is par for Contemporary Islam or Colonialist Christianity...But I believe that what they stand for is certainly not Hinduism. For them to claim to be the voices of RELIGIOUS Hinduism is ridiculous. In my religion, we solve disputes by sitting in a room with other subject matter experts and argue till the flower garland around our neck fades...

The Hinduism that exists today is symbolic of the devolution of the very process that made it so enduring...The ability to imbibe, infuse and expand on other forms of knowledge...We were never a single entity, and any organization that proclaims so is fooling us and themselves. But While I believe that, I also do not think it is my place to tell other people what organization they should be members of and then call them Fascists or Racists just because they are a part of it...When in truth, the organization is neither.

There is a quote from a movie that more than any contemporary philosophy echoed my personal viewpoints...Its from the movie "Munich" and it goes We are supposed to be righteous. That's a beautiful thing. And we're losing it. If I lose that, that's everything. That's my soul. As Hindus we can be part of any organization we want, but we should try to use it to induce change through non-violent means whilst entrenching the values that are important to us, that seems to be the only thing that Sonal Shah has done...to criticize her and undermine her candidacy from inside her own community is nothing short of blatant hypocrisy bereft with a lack of understanding of who she is.

In my religion, we solve disputes by sitting in a room with other subject matter experts and argue till the flower garland around our neck fades...

That's what they all say :-) To everything there is a season . . .

202 · gbs said

except i didn't make any of these claims, so that dance you are seeing is from shadows in your head.

You need a DVR. Prices are pretty low these days, you can get one on the cheap.

Neither do I heap all blame on ideologies nor on their followers. Evangelical xtians in the US are not a monolithic group. In my outreach work with xtians in my county I have worked with a spectrum Episcopalians/Methodists/Lutherans/Baptists/AME/Catholic/Orthodox. Recently I talked with a Baptist pastor (is that the right term) about a controversy over yoga at a school in Upstate NY. I told the pastor that Yoga is Hindu and that he is right in saying so. And also that asana is only 1/8th of all yoga. And that if he is going to be considering yoga he must look at his own attitudes towards belief/faith/doctrine. I would tell him that he can practice yoga but still be Christian although a Christian as a Hindu would see it, and may be not how another Christian would see it. And also told him that there is a case for practicing yoga in schools because it would not violate the establmt clause. I have had it a little harder with the Catholic churches I have been to. Because let's say they have some heightened concerns about any ordinarily clad guy who doesn't "look" or "act" Hindu and bats away caste and cows in the first minute. But evangelical/pentecostal and other proselytisation groups in India are more homogeneous and as a rule are concerned about purity of belief and practice.

And while we are it can we cast some light on the other Indian-American religious organisations? FIACONA, CAIR etc? In all the recent Ten Commandments monuments cases the Hindu American Foundation, ADL, PFAW, and others have been involved. But FIACONA, CAIR, FOIL, Vijay Prashad and Co. etc., have all been AWOL missing big time.

The reference is to the Story of Shankara arguing Advaita...Never mind

How big of a difference is there between the RSS and VHP? I personally know some very decent old people who were members of RSS in India in their youth.

I think RSS is started by atheists who are Hindu nationalists / fascists, and VHP is started by believers that included a Sikh.

The stream of comments that are attempting to conflate Hinduism with the VHP/RSS ARE FULL OF CRAP. The VHP/RSS are not "Hindu-interest" or representation groups. They expound a toxic and narrow ideology that labels Christians and Muslims invaders, legitimizes their ethnic cleansing from India, and then tries to subsume "indigenous" religions under their vision of Hinduism. It is an extreme nationalist organization that has no respect for, or sense of, diversity. Not within its own internal definition of what makes a Hindu a Hindu, and not within its definition of what it believes is "authentically Indian." They're also incredibly active in the U.S. in trying to establish themselves as an "authoritative" voice for Hindus, so I wouldn't be surprised if people have grown up in "moderate" spaces and feel that this criticism is unwarranted.

It is limited and dangerous to pretend that because they tout a compelling justification for why they are "protecting" persecuted Hindus that their violence against India's minorities is legitimate. If this were ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION we would be arguing about two things, 1) whether or not they represented "mainstream" members of that faith community; and 2) whether they should be allowed political power if we believe they engage in, or facilitate, terrorist activity. There is no dissonance between saying that we should not use extremists as representatives of a mainstream community (often the argument when we're talking about groups that engage in hateful activity and justify it as rooted in Islam), and saying that the VHP is not a mainstream rep, but an extreme one.

RahulD, are you seriously arguing that the Republican Party is equal to a party that has been directly responsible for galvanizing communal violence? There's a difference between saying some of your members also belong to the KKK and saying that you ARE in the KKK because it "broadly represents your interests." I really think they're that bad. They are less like a mainstream political party and more like an exclusionary party. Would you make the same argument if we were talking about Hamas?

The issue here is that Sonal was in the VHPA leadership. Given that the VHPA was formed to carry out the VHP's mission in America, and openly shares the same aims, isn't this reasonable grounds upon which to ask questions about Sonal Shah's beliefs?

thanks camille; i do miss the sepia of yore too. the world is too fraught for fluff posts and cordiality these days :)

How big of a difference is there between the RSS and VHP? I personally know some very decent old people who were members of RSS in India in their youth.
*Based strictly on my interactions and definitely not being an apologist*
RSS elders were surprisingly tolerant of opposing views (mine). Definitely not as simpleminded as some comrades like to paint them. Think Gandhi started out well and then went to the dark side. Older punjabis I know are quite pro-RSS (see portmanteau’s partition comment).

VHP: Remember those fools rioting over Satanic Verses? Many of them didn’t know much about Rushdie’s book or Koran. VHP people I meet seem like their hindu version.

218 · Camille said

RahulD, are you seriously arguing that the Republican Party is equal to a party that has been directly responsible for galvanizing communal violence? There's a difference between saying some of your members also belong to the KKK and saying that you ARE in the KKK because it "broadly represents your interests." I really think they're that bad. They are less like a mainstream political party and more like an exclusionary party. Would you make the same argument if we were talking about Hamas?

Nope, thats not what I meant to say at all...And like I clarified later, I made that post in a hurry and was basically annoyed by the hollow criticism of certain posters like gbs that lack substantive arguments. What I was trying to say was that you cannot define an organization by its fringe elements, not everyone who joins an organization is in it to gain dominance...I guess a better example would be in the arguments levelled against the Church of Scientology. I was trying to coalesce viewpoints Ive read on this website that equate all Republicans to racists because of some of them...or all Southern Christians to idiots because of studies done on unrepresentative samples.

The HAMAS to me is pure evil, it is as bad as Pol Pot and the Nazis, the more Ive learned about them the more Ive learned to hate them - they make both Al Qaeda and LeT seem moderate (if such a thing exists in Islamofascism)...But thats another thread for another day (and here is to hoping that thread never comes up)

220 · RahulD said

nd was basically annoyed by the hollow criticism of certain posters like gbs

for the benefit of all persecuted commenters, i am still looking for where i said that all hindus are bad. equating vhp to republican party is a joke. my last comment on this topic.

RahulD, cool. Just wanted to figure out what the underlying argument was. I know that there are incredibly kind people who say that they are members of the VHP/RSS. I don't think people (in the U.S.) realize the full baggage that those organizations carry or what it means when you tell someone that you are affiliated with, or even tacitly support, an organization that has a very explicit vision of what to do with dissidents and religious minorities.

I also think, on this site, we often jump to conclusions about what people's positions/arguments are going to be (e.g., all the posters who immediately talked about how the "left" or "liberals" on this site call the RSS Hindu Fascists) instead of hearing them out. I just wanted to understand / hear yours out.

218 · Camille said

To bring it back to the real issue, I think this comment summed up what's going on.

thanks camille; i do miss the sepia of yore too. the world is too fraught for fluff posts and cordiality these days :)

Im sorry that people like us are ruining your website, but I guess some reactions are just that...reactionary...You bash something valuable to somebody, they are likely to defend it...I have no desire no vested interest to argue the "Indian from India" viewpoint nor do I believe in any inherent moral superiority to be an "Indian from India" - but you gotta figure why someone might find certain things touchy...

So basically, you just disagree with the idea of democracy? of people in power or moving up the ranks of power being asked questions? being asked to answer those questions? being called out when they lie about them? being denied access to more power until they account to people? i'm perfectly happy for her to either get out of mainstream politics or to provide a more compelling and detailed explanation-- it's not going to go to jail for her ties to vhp-a like she likely would if she were palestinian or lebanese shi'a and doing similar stuff with hamas or hezbollah - she hasn't even taken a stand against THOSE types of activities - it all seems very self-serving, and i'm not getting out of the way until i am assured that i am wrong.

Doc, I assure you that you are wrong, so please get out of Sonal's way!
You do not have authority, even in a democracy, to interfere with anybody's job until they answer your questions,whatever they may be. Who appointed you and the Prashad-led agitators to act as gatekeeper to positions on Obama's transition team?-- never mind Obama's cabinet appointments!?!

I don't think people (in the U.S.) realize the full baggage that those organizations carry or what it means when you tell someone that you are affiliated with, or even tacitly support, an organization that has a very explicit vision of what to do with dissidents and religious minorities.

That's right. I can't figure out why one of the co-founders of VHP is a religious minority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHP

The Vishwa Hindu Parishad was formed in 1964 by Swami Chinmayananda as president and former RSS member S.S. Apte as general secretary, with Master Tara Singh as one of the co-founders[2].

224 · Amrita said

So basically, you just disagree with the idea of democracy? of people in power or moving up the ranks of power being asked questions? being asked to answer those questions? being called out when they lie about them? being denied access to more power until they account to people? i'm perfectly happy for her to either get out of mainstream politics or to provide a more compelling and detailed explanation-- it's not going to go to jail for her ties to vhp-a like she likely would if she were palestinian or lebanese shi'a and doing similar stuff with hamas or hezbollah - she hasn't even taken a stand against THOSE types of activities - it all seems very self-serving, and i'm not getting out of the way until i am assured that i am wrong.

Doc, I assure you that you are wrong, so please get out of Sonal's way!
You do not have authority, even in a democracy, to interfere with anybody's job until they answer your questions,whatever they may be. Who appointed you and the Prashad-led agitators to act as gatekeeper to positions on Obama's transition team?-- never mind Obama's cabinet appointments!?!

So because you are a fan of a particular possible appointee you think that once we elected the president elect we are supposed to let him do whatever he wants for 4 - 8 years?
Are you suggesting that the congress just not show up to work and let him do whatever he wants as well ?
You must have been sitting pretty for the last 8 years.
We elected the CEO ( however corrupt the process) and as stakeholders in the company we actually do get a say (however powerful that voice maybe) about who is on the board. Eventually if its too much trouble she won't be appointed.

The purpose of the people in democracy and the original purpose of the media is to GET IN THE WAY of politicians and their people. If no one gets in the way that means no one is asking questions.

GET IN THE WAY PEOPLE ... GET IN THE WAY. Get in the way until those who are being paid by tax dollars have to be accountable and remember that they are here to serve the people of the U.S.

On comment#225 by P S

I don't think an immediate-post-partition-era Sikh and Hindu alliance is exactly a glowing symbol of Religious tolerance...

That being said, from what I remember the VHP does consider Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism as Hinduism...I think the Akhal Takht actually took exception to "whatsisname Bhaiyya" saying that at somepoint in the last decade (before he died?).

I dunno if anyone actually asked their spokesperson what they think of one of the Vedas mentioning the Parsees and Jews as just sub-sects of Brahmins...who were from another area in the world. I think the verse talks about how they were from a distant land and they came back home or something like that.

223 · RahulD said

the world is too fraught for fluff posts and cordiality these days :)

rahuld, i was pointing to exactly what you say. i mean that fluff posts seem besides the point these days (i remember someone getting very annoyed by makeup tips offered by certain devis on the MIA thread), and people have been so rattled by what is going that these days that we are all in to defend our various POVs. cordiality be damned. because times are pretty fraught and many of us feel that the stakes are suddenly higher. maybe i'm in india so this feeling is more magnified.
i have no proprietary right over sepia whatsoever. and you're not spoiling 'my' site. my mood OTOH...;)

So because you are a fan of a particular possible appointee you think that once we elected the president elect we are supposed to let him do whatever he wants for 4 - 8 years?
Are you suggesting that the congress just not show up to work and let him do whatever he wants as well ?
You must have been sitting pretty for the last 8 years.

We elected the CEO ( however corrupt the process) and as stakeholders in the company we actually do get a say (however powerful that voice maybe) about who is on the board. Eventually if its too much trouble she won't be appointed.

The purpose of the people in democracy and the original purpose of the media is to GET IN THE WAY of politicians and their people. If no one gets in the way that means no one is asking questions.

GET IN THE WAY PEOPLE ... GET IN THE WAY. Get in the way until those who are being paid by tax dollars have to be accountable and remember that they are here to serve the people of the U.S.

The above is yours, Raj, and is the part I didn't say-- get your block quotes straight, m'dear.

Sonal is not a politician, and I doubt very much whether this storm in a teacup has the force to make much impact on Obama. He can just ask Sonal to resign-- the only person affected/harmed by this agitation would be Sonal, and that would be because of noise generated, not whether she actually bears managerial responsibiities regarding events in Godhra or the mistreatment of Christian adivasis. This episode is nothing but a personal attack on Sonal parading as something bigger, and that is typical, unforunately, of Desi crabs in this great big bucket.

228 · portmanteau said

rahuld, i was pointing to exactly what you say. i mean that fluff posts seem besides the point these days (i remember someone getting very annoyed by makeup tips offered by certain devis on the MIA thread), and people have been so rattled by what is going that these days that we are all in to defend our various POVs. cordiality be damned. because times are pretty fraught and many of us feel that the stakes are suddenly higher. maybe i'm in india so this feeling is more magnified.
i have no proprietary right over sepia whatsoever. and you're not spoiling 'my' site. my mood OTOH...;)

Hey man, for what its worth...you seem to have a valid point most of the time. Sorry about the mood, lets find some middle ground...know any places in the midwest that make Bhang?

I think on principle that Sonal Shah's being part of VHP-A and being part of the US government is equivalent to someone being a part of Jamaat-Ud Dawa and being part of the US government. Of course, in the real world, someone who was on the leadership board of Jamaat-ud Dawa-USA or some other "Islamofascist" organization would never even be considered for a US cabinet post, but philosophically/morally the situations are equivalent. I think that Ms. Shah should resign or be asked to leave. And this is not persecution of Hindus, as I would be asking the same of anyone who supported a communal organization of any other religion.

231 · Kabir Altaf said

I think on principle that Sonal Shah's being part of VHP-A and being part of the US government is equivalent to someone being a part of Jamaat-Ud Dawa and being part of the US government.

There should be some amount of logic shown when comparisions are being made...20,000 drunk, sexually opressed men in North India armed with lathis is not the equivalent of an organized financial network that has a budget of around $850 million dollars directly supplying bombs to the very people who have been blowing themselves up in theatres and marketplaces or planting IEDs

But the later part of your point is valid...anyone who supports any communal organization of any religion shouldn't hold a federal post of power...

Sexually REPRESSED...sorry for that faux pas...

224 · Amrita said

Doc, I assure you that you are wrong, so please get out of Sonal's way!
You do not have authority, even in a democracy, to interfere with anybody's job until they answer your questions,whatever they may be. Who appointed you and the Prashad-led agitators to act as gatekeeper to positions on Obama's transition team?-- never mind Obama's cabinet appointments!?!

I think you answered my questions:

So basically, you just disagree with the idea of democracy? of people in power or moving up the ranks of power being asked questions? being asked to answer those questions? being called out when they lie about them? being denied access to more power until they account to people?

This is basically what your defense of Ms. Shah's participation in the Obama transition team and potentially his administration rests on. No lessons from the last 8 years?

reasonable grounds upon which to ask questions about Sonal Shah's beliefs?

i only went down the thorny path of denouncing hindu extremists, talking about a persecution complex, financing extra-legal organizations* etc because i was so put off by rob's grandiose gesture :) if vhp just barked and never bit it would be a different story.

just to make a quick comment on louicypher's observation about 'the dalits have it so easy' crowd: it is not that uncommon to hear that the mumbai attacks were caused mainly by hiring underqualified sc/st personnel in the government. there is a certain uncle (and a few aunties too) that can be counted on for bringing it all back to the curses of the reservation system.

*like the durga vahini beating up random students on college campuses in gujarat makes my blood boil. they break up couples or people who appear to be couples. wtf?? who appointed these clowns as moral arbiters? similarly, i have little patience for unelected muslim legal lobbying bodies. they represent the most unjust and regressive provisions which may not even be acceptable to many indian muslims, yet state and central governments and even the judiciary have to kowtow to their whims.

Hi, Portmanteau--sorry you're disappointed in me, but glad you told me. I'll look into the org. much more before I run for office. . . .

Rahul,

Maybe the exact comparison has problems. But I was going for the fact that this excuse that one is supporting a purely "charitable" arm of a militant/communal organization is not an excuse. An individual is responsible for researching the organizations he or she chooses to support. When there are other alternatives out there to make a difference that are not ethically compromised, we should support those. If I wanted to make a difference for the poor in Pakistan or for earthquake relief or whatever, I would not funnel my donations through Jamaat-Ud-Dawa. If I did, and then was in the running for a cabinet post, there would be a problem....

Anyway, I'm glad you agree with my larger point that anyone who supports a communal organization should not hold a federal post of power. If Ms. Shah does get nominated, I hope the Senate will question her very carefully about this issue before confirming her (or not).

Okay, doing this over, with new blockquotes, and hoping it works, SMIntern:

So because you are a fan of a particular possible appointee you think that once we elected the president elect we are supposed to let him do whatever he wants for 4 - 8 years? Are you suggesting that the congress just not show up to work and let him do whatever he wants as well ? You must have been sitting pretty for the last 8 years.

First of all, the president elect's cabinet appointments will of course be reviewed by the Senate for confirmation, but Sonal is on the trnsition team and has not been offered a cabinet position. It follows from your argument that you think the anti-Sonal agitators want to prevent her being offered a cabinet post. They may not need to do that, in ny case, but this is a clear instance of one person organizing a melodrama to scuttle nother person's advancement.

We elected the CEO ( however corrupt the process) and as stakeholders in the company we actually do get a say (however powerful that voice maybe) about who is on the board. Eventually if its too much trouble she won't be appointed.

This is one jumbled metaphor. Holding a position on the transition team is hardly equivalent to sitting on the board of a firm. Since when do shareholders (stakeholders?) elect board members?

The purpose of the people in democracy and the original purpose of the media is to GET IN THE WAY of politicians and their people. If no one gets in the way that means no one is asking questions.

GET IN THE WAY PEOPLE ... GET IN THE WAY. Get in the way until those who are being paid by tax dollars have to be accountable and remember that they are here to serve the people of the U.S.

Why don't you try using online fora for vetting everyone leading the Auto Workers instead?

229 · Amrita
----------
The point is not whether or not she should be there. The point is that just because she / he is (you fill in the blank) doesn't mean we should "get out of the way."

I would love for a desi to become the president. But I'm not going to elect ( you fill in the blank) just because. I'm definitely not going to get out of his / her way when he /she makes the attempt. I definitely wouldn't elect he / she just because he / she is desi.

You can't just expect desis to get to the top and not get questioned, probed, accused, and address those who confront them and I am not talking about Sepia Mutiny being that force. I'm talking about from other sources including citizens.

You're not a crab in the bucket if you want the people (especially those that look like you) in government to be clear of anything false, to be honest, to answer public concerns (from whichever groups that may ask), to play on the same field as all other public officials / office holders( minus the corruption).

If you look at one of my previous post I asked if anyone here has actually talked to Sonal Shah and how she approaches it. Is she arrogantly dismissive or is she understanding of the "misunderstanding" (from her point of view) and willing to work to clear it up?

When I said get in the way I meant of anyone in public office / being paid by tax dollars.

And whomever thinks energy policies don't have anything to do with foreign policy and security is asleep.

For anyone that wants to learn more about Hindu nationalism: There are many texts on Hindu nationalism and the Sangh Parivar-- if you put in "Hindu nationalism" in Amazon there are some excellent sources on the Sangh's history and politics (and can put any titles into Worldcat.org to get them from a local library). And there are also reports on the Sangh's violence in Gujarat at onlinevolunteers.org, and Sabrang Communications publishes a magazine, Communalism Combat.

They will contribute to responding to some of the RSS/VHP/BJP history questions in more depth, to looking at how the Sangh has changed over time, and to disaggregating the different activities and roles that the upper-caste, upper-class members take on in the "Hindu rashtra", in contrast to Dalit, lower caste, and Adivasi members, which may help to understand how the Sangh supporters in the US and UK operate in relation to the Sangh in India.

I think on principle that Sonal Shah's being part of VHP-A and being part of the US government is equivalent to someone being a part of Jamaat-Ud Dawa and being part of the US government.

What--Jamaat-Ud Dawa is incorporated and doing business somewhere in these United States?

Kabir Altaf
Here is an interview with the Jamat Ul Dawa ameer
In his own words, "God has ordained every Muslim to fight until His rule is established,"."We have no option but to follow God's order."
This is the VHP's official website. As you can clearly see, world domination is not one of their objectives.For all their faults, they cannot be compared to the JUD by any stretch of imagination.
Any attempts to equalise the two are intellectually dishonest

you can advance all you want but not on my tax dollar if you don't pass the test. otherwise lets just endorse any desi to public positions.

no complaints, no questions, no barriers to their achievement. there path should be paved with fresh black top every week so that they have it better than anyone to the top ?

lets not muttle anyone's advancement. make sure you don't vote either because the person you didn't vote for you are working against their advancement.

advancement in public life includes working on your image and addressing the PUBLICs concerns.

-----
This has nothing to do with crabs in a bucket. If she clears everything it will be great maybe she will open the doors for even more desis and under represented citizens.

It is quite obvious that these folks use one stick to measure Hinduism / Hindu organisations and another stick to measure others

that's my attempt to undignify this thread; anyway, i think it's all out of my system now. good to hang out with you guys again. happy week to all those who want one.

You can't just expect desis to get to the top and not get questioned, probed, accused, and address those who confront them and I am not talking about Sepia Mutiny being that force. I'm talking about from other sources including citizens.

So Raj, please feel free not to campaign for Piyush, but what you are saying here is that one can't just expect desis to get to the top and not get questioned, probed and accused of perfidy and anti-Christian violence by other desis, citizens or not, who demand a confrontation with them.

242 · Lupus Solitarius said

Here is an interview with the Jamat Ul Dawa ameer

that interview mentions a kid's magazine called 'nanhe mujahid.' that is sickening and saddenning.

While the popular thing around here to do is to like that Bobby Jindal is desi but not like his politics, I actually like SOME of the things that he has done. So I haven't made up my mind on Jindal yet. Let's see where he goes and what he does.

Obama has answered to those that confront him. He's done it maybe more so than any non biracial white politician ever has done. Why can't any desi in a public position do the same? If you want to make it an equal opportunity society. It has to be equal opportunity.

>I think that Ms. Shah should resign or be asked to leave.

You should also ask Rahm Emmanuel to resign and leave. You have about the same right to do that as you have to ask Sonal. Hope you are making as much noise on some Israeli board.

I am touched by the spirited defence here of Hinduism, and the right of Hindus to organize politically (which is what the Sangh Parivar is), and the right of Hindus to belong to such an organization even if it has some extremist fringes. After all, no one considers the Congress fascist, even though its extremists have killed more Sikhs than the VHP's extremists have killed Muslims. Neither is the CPM considered fascist, even though its extremists have killed hundreds of RSS people in Kerala. Same with Akali Dal, the Dravida parties, the Muslim League and Kerala Congress (an Xtian outfit). Every community and ideology has a political outfit in India to further their interests, so Hindus should have one too. And every outfit has extremists. If others can belong to their parties despite their extremists, Hindus can as well.

However, I think such debate is pointless. It is better to spent your time doing all or some of the following:

1) Read literature in one Indian language, and learn to write in it

2) Learn/support one Indian classical/folk art form

3) Read Indian philosophy, particularly the scholastic tradition (S. Radhakrishnan, Bimal Krishna Matilal, Jitendra Mohanty etc.)

4) Learn to cook your regional Indian dishes

5) Learn more about home/herbal/folk remedies from elders in the family, and try them

6) Learn about farming and other green practices in a rural community. I particularly recommend this initiative.

7) Support your local temple festival

The best way to support a culture is to live it. Political organization is a subsidiary activity. It is needed in a democratic setup, but democratic setup is just the current scheme of things. The way things are going, it may not be around for long.

Hinduism has survived over millenia not by fighting wars or through organizations, but by one central value -- stoicism.

Yes I'd also have an issue with a U.S. public official supporting or accused of supporting Hezbollah or Hamas even though both have a wing that is purely political and have political parties in some countries. These are the same countries in which they are seen as defense forces by the people living there.

It is quite obvious that these folks use one stick to measure Hinduism / Hindu organisations and another stick to measure others and i thought that would make y'allz happy after this report :)

I think the survey did not take into account VHP / RSS folks. remember those uncivilized idolators worship the linga. :-)

Raj, you think Obama should have gotten more flack than a white politician and because of that situation, so should Sonal and Bobby? I'm amzed! You may be right about no desis who reach leadership positions escaping vindictive scrutiny by other desis, but I hope that will change.

I'm back to worx....

246 · portmanteau said

242 · Lupus Solitarius said

Here is an interview with the Jamat Ul Dawa ameer

that interview mentions a kid's magazine called 'nanhe mujahid.' that is sickening and saddenning.

What? You've never seen HAMAS's Mickey Mouse or the Kids reading poems about dying for their faith?

http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_may2007.htm#b060507
http://pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.html
http://pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html

BEAT THAT VHP! They got Mickey Mouse...YOUR MOVE losers...and no Jambavan won't cut it...

248 · Bleah

Throughout the post I keep mentioning Rahm Emmanuel. You are the first to pick up on Rahm Emmanuel in this thread.
I don't understand why this guy is getting the all clear either. How is the U.S. gonna look anymore independent of the Israeli / Palestinian issue with this guy in there?

If they all get cleared then it will be a great way for Obama to get some conflicting opinions and then do the opposite of what any of them think HOPEFULLY.

Kabir, By definition all religious groups are communal. Do you consdier the Pope to be communal? Ofcourse he is. It is his job, in fact part of his religious objectives is to defend, protect and spread his faith. Same would go for all religious groups. You are however correct that violent groups of all variety should not be promoted in any manner.

Sonal is being targeted uneccessarily for a singular association with a group who may not neccessarily share the view of extreme elements of a an associated unbrella organization. By this logic a significant population of India and the diaspora would be declared communal and not be allowed a public platform. This is guilt by association on steroids.

I don't think an immediate-post-partition-era Sikh and Hindu alliance is exactly a glowing symbol of Religious tolerance...

Probably right. I was responding to Camille's argument that While looking for info on VHP, I'm actually surprised that one of the co-founders was a Sikh.

I don't think people (in the U.S.) realize the full baggage that those organizations carry or what it means when you tell someone that you are affiliated with, or even tacitly support, an organization that has a very explicit vision of what to do with dissidents and religious minorities.

248 · Bleah said

Hinduism has survived over millenia not by fighting wars or through organizations, but by one central value -- stoicism.

Or letting conflicting philosophies like Advaita and Tantra both be integral parts of it.

255 · Ponniyin Selvan said

Probably right. I was responding to Camille's argument that While looking for info on VHP, I'm actually surprised that one of the co-founders was a Sikh.

Actually a representative of every faith that had its roots in India was there including the Dalai Lama I believe...too lazy to look up sources...Google?

I gotta start being the Galloping Granny!

254 · newbie said

o you consdier the Pope to be communal? Ofcourse he is. It is his job, in fact part of his religious objectives is to defend, protect and spread his faith. Same would go for all religious groups. You are however correct that violent groups of all variety should not be promoted in any manner.

This was what the last Holy Father said when he was invited by the Indian government, China on the other hand had rejected a request to visit it. He said this right before he left: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_07111999_new-delhi_en.html

251 · Amrita said

Raj, you think Obama should have gotten more flack than a white politician and because of that situation, so should Sonal and Bobby? I'm amzed! You may be right about no desis who reach leadership positions escaping vindictive scrutiny by other desis, but I hope that will change.

I'm back to worx....

------
No, I am saying that Obama DID take more flack than any white politician, including from black people. Just because some black people were being "crabs," doesn't mean the black people that questioned him on controversial issues were all "crabs" and it doesn't mean that they were being vindictive just because they were demanding an answer.

So why are desis supposed to be excused when he wasn't?

We are paying these people. If they don't want to take the heat they should get out of the kitchen and take a private sector position. Take a pay check home and pay someone else their tax dollars to do the government job.

Actually a representative of every faith that had its roots in India was there including the Dalai Lama I believe...too lazy to look up sources...

Yup, the wiki says so. Looks like they wanted to fight against encroaching foreign faiths that included communism (I guess Nehruvian communism was strong at that time with the government patronage). :-)

Maybe there is higher standard for Obama's admin. but considering that Bush-Daud dynasty relationship aren't the criticisms of Sonal Shah slight over-reaction ?

PS, someone saying they're Sikh or identifying as Sikh doesn't justify the ideology of the organization or make it suddenly "inclusive." I think it's plenty easy to find a Sikh out there who is anti-Muslim and anti-Christian and willing to endorse an ideology that stipulates that India is and should only be populated with "authentic, Hindu-derived" faiths (VHP's argument, not mine). Those same Sikhs are also, for the most part, considered to be out of the mainstream faith community.

Amrita, really? I don't even know what to say at this point.

With the comment re: Congress, that's fine -- there's no love lost among Sikhs and either party. That said, there's a difference, in my opinion, between a party that actively campaigns on exclusivist/repressive ideologies. Again, I'm not saying either is preferred or better, but I do think there's a legitimate question re: why you would fundraise for an organization that is ok with things like forcible conversion.

And finally, the RSS and VHP are not the same as the Pope -- is it really that hard to distinguish? I don't even know why you'd want to pretend its the same thing. Ugh.

Raj, surely the standard for politicians of any race should be vetting without agitation?
Putting up a bogus guilt-by-association meme out on the web and then promoting it is not mature politics. I'll say it again, Sonal's role on the transition team is not about electoral politics.

yes... lets lay off a bit. lets ease up regulations too. laws, who needs those. now that Bush screwed it up. No one can be worse so we should just give a "you're not Bush so you're good card" to everyone that wants one.

>Throughout the post I keep mentioning Rahm Emmanuel. You are the first to pick up on Rahm Emmanuel in this thread.
I don't understand why this guy is getting the all clear either.

Because it is easier to pick on Hindus. If Prashad goes after Emmanuel, he may lose his job.

Those same Sikhs are also, for the most part, considered to be out of the mainstream faith community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Tara_Singh

Nope, looks like this guy is the biggest leader of Sikhs starting from 1920s.

You can be a "leader" and still have a break from the community. Additionally, as Sikhs will tell you, there are any number of stupid people who have been elevated to positions of leadership (even against grassroots protest) through a series of processes that did not allow for real democratic participation. There are also people who are great leaders on one issue and break with the community when they choose tactics that are considered abhorrent.

But, of course, it's easier to cite Wikipedia and attribute equal weight to divergent opinions than engage in critical analysis.

Camille, I think VHP minus the violence would have lot of similarities with christian faith group who are going about defending and spreading the gospel. I don't know who you are talking about when you say "forcible conversions"

I was not comparing Pope to VHP but just pointing out that all religious groups by definition are communal. Most religious groups would also by definition promote exclusivity of their religion. (BTW, You should read some of this Pope's and past Popes speeches. You migh learn a thing or two.)

Only thing I am saying is that by this questioning of Sonal's bonafides standard, lot of people would get disqualified based on the view that they are communal (including Bobby Jindal and assorted desi politicians in Canada). The test is that in office, politicians and appointees should not make decisions based on their faith or ideology. I will submit to you that this has been very hard to do in India (by all parties) and might be relatively easier here to do in the US - i say relatively because of experience with the current President and past history of US.

227 · RahulD said

That being said, from what I remember the VHP does consider Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism as Hinduism...I think the Akhal Takht actually took exception to "whatsisname Bhaiyya" saying that at somepoint in the last decade (before he died?).

Yeah, and when some Hindus criticised JP-2's call - in India, on Dipavali no less - to claim Asia (an India) for Christ and plant the cross therein; they were abused and vilified. So it is OK for some Baptist and extremist Xtian groups in the US and other parts of the world to fund pure-play soul harvesting in India, but not OK for the RSS/VHP to ask Christian and Muslim Indians to consider an India centered belief and practice? Camille while I am sure that there are Hindus in India who uphold all kinds of extremist beliefs (as of course there are people of all faiths who do so) the VHP/RSS isn't talking of expelling people of any faith. And BTW is anyone investigating the decades long nexus between soul-harvesting groups outside India and Christian terrorist outfits in NE India?

Because it is easier to pick on Hindus. If Prashad goes after Emmanuel, he may lose his job.

Prashad is a smear merchant extraordinaire. Thanks to him entire graduating classes of ABDs have been trained in vicious and vacuous talking points. It is to Prashad we owe the vile practice of demonizing any and every Hindu-centric organization. Prashad has the habit of conflating any program of action related to Hinduism with the work of violent rabble. Rajiv Malhotra and his Infinity Foundation too have been the target of his vicious smears. After being bested in debate on the pages of the Outlook Prashad took to dubbing Malhotra and his organization a non-violent equivalent of the Sambhaji Briagade that trashed the Bhandarkar Institute in the furore over James Laine's book on Shivaji. If this is what Prashad can do to an scholarly organization (which is what the other great ignoramus of India studies Meera Nayyar does) one shudders to think what he can do to any budding scholar who is still on the make. We should be asking where Prashad acquired the credentials or authority to define Hinduism given that he is always bleating about the issue.

But, of course, it's easier to cite Wikipedia and attribute equal weight to divergent opinions than engage in critical analysis.

Are you saying that Master Tara Singh is an insignificant leader and we should not cite wikipedia ?. I've seen references to Tara Singh's name in many books that deals with the history of India around the partition time frame. The wiki reference was a pointer to you.

This guy apparently had a mass following of Sikhs and it is surprising that you dismiss him to be an inconsequential just because he doesn't suit your point.

12 · kayastha_lady said

The genocidal agenda of VHP is no longer provincial - it has gone global. Caste Hindus in their bid to emulate their Zionist patrons in terms of clout and influence over American political life have successfully planted their trojan in the most powerful circles. Sonal Shah with her light eyes and straight nose is an exemplar of the Aryan ideal that the VHP seeks to arrantly impose upon India and the free world.

Waahahaaahahahahahahhaahahaaahaahaah.
That posting was such a bunch of nonsense.
But thank you for making me laugh, please keep on barking it's realy entertaining to read the comments of those without properly functioning brains.

newbie, maybe. I think that VHP's history of violence is inextricably bound up with its political posturing. That said, I have the same problem with VHP that I have with evangelical Christian organizations that promote violence and the establishment of theocratic regimes. By definition those organizations promote an extreme vision both of their religion/beliefs and of how they believe the world should be organized. And thanks, I have read the Pope's speeches. I haven't learned much except that the current Pope is taking huge backwards steps for Roman Catholics everywhere on issues of religious tolerance.

jyotsana, I think it's easy to see RSS/VHP as innocuous. They have articulated, and acted upon, a policy that specifies a very limited idea of who is Indian and who deserves to be in India. Expulsion is less of a problem if you're promoting violence that kills people off.

Prashad is a communist symphatiser. There are many communist terror groups active in India. Conclusion: Prashad is a terrorist that needs a one way ticket to Guantanamo Bay very fast

273 · tonji said

Prashad is a communist symphatiser. There are many communist terror groups active in India. Conclusion: Prashad is a terrorist that needs a one way ticket to Guantanamo Bay very fast

Dude...who sends communists to Gitmo...are there any real communists still left outside of Bengal and Kerala?

But still...communists!!! they do Grind My Gears, WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE? why don't they get with the freaking program...Its called a "flat world" people!

272 · Camille said

They have articulated, and acted upon, a policy that specifies a very limited idea of who is Indian and who deserves to be in India.

>Prashad is a smear merchant extraordinaire.

Yeah, but one without the guts to take on the Jewish lobby. Which is why the model of Hindu political activism in the US is AIPAC. I am not sure that is a good trend, but that's what you get when you keep labeling largely harmless people as fascists.

OK Intern, time to close this thread. Invariably after 300 posts this is where we always get after every blog posting touching the communal-secular issue. Can we have some eye candy please.

Can someone please link to VHP/RSS’s links to all the terror that is being referred to. I always thought it was Bajrang Dal but I will stand corrected if you will be kind enough to post some links.

The Bajrang Dal is part of the VHP. There are a bunch of links on the wikipedia page.

I would like those links too. I'm unclear on the differences between and the different functions of the BJP, VHP, RSS, and Bajrang Dal. I have a feeling (just based on the illogical comments by some people) that certain commenters aren't clear on it either, even though they would like to think they are.

Ignore my last comment, for some reason I thought they were separate organiztions and at some point Bajrang Dal was banned by Indian Government.

However, I think such debate is pointless. It is better to spent your time doing all or some of the following:

1) Read literature in one Indian language, and learn to write in it

2) Learn/support one Indian classical/folk art form

3) Read Indian philosophy, particularly the scholastic tradition (S. Radhakrishnan, Bimal Krishna Matilal, Jitendra Mohanty etc.)

4) Learn to cook your regional Indian dishes

5) Learn more about home/herbal/folk remedies from elders in the family, and try them

6) Learn about farming and other green practices in a rural community. I particularly recommend this initiative.

7) Support your local temple festival

The best way to support a culture is to live it.

Although I wouldn't necessarily agree with all the specific points, I think this was by far the best comment on this thread so far.

A simple diffrentiator
RSS --> political wing - Jan Sangh (BJP successor to JS after 1980)
RSS --> social wing - VHP(1964)

Bajrang Dal was founded in relation to the Babri Masjid issue (1984).

Bajrang Dal is the youth wing of the VHP.

278 · umber desi said

Can someone please link to VHP/RSS’s links to all the terror that is being referred to.

read about the link posted earlier about bhagalpur, about orissa riots, about babri masjid. these are direct vhp links, not bajrang dal, which is of course the notorious "youth wing" of the vhp.

not to mention direct bjp connection to bhagalpur, babri - major event in hindu-muslim relations in india, and gujarat.

but one without the guts to take on the Jewish lobby.

i think israel is a bad role model for india to emulate, as is the support for right wing likud like forces in american politics. citing rahm emanuel's acceptability is not a good defense of sonal.

>i think israel is a bad role model for india to emulate

Sure, but that is where this push will lead India, if it is not already there.

i think israel is a bad role model for india to emulate

Why?

(I'm not saying that you're wrong -- I merely want to hear your reasons for your statement).

The letter is online! Sorry for the long posting yesterday. A coalition of Indian American individuals and organizations has sent a letter to President-Elect Obama Re: US Policy on Hindu Nationalist Groups in India and the US, mentioning Sonal Shah toward the end of the letter.

287 · vhp terror said

but one without the guts to take on the Jewish lobby.

i think israel is a bad role model for india to emulate, as is the support for right wing likud like forces in american politics. citing rahm emanuel's acceptability is not a good defense of sonal.

It is a good idea to go the way of the Anti Defamation League and AIPAC at least as far as Hindu related matters is concerned. Incidentally some rightist Jews (e.g., David Klinghoffer) consider the ADL a leftist entity!! Isn't it funny that Vijay Prashad can write an invective filled creed titled "Namaste Sharon" on Ariel Sharon's visit to India but has never once written an article critical of the many Middle Eastern despots who have visited India? It takes a Saeed Naqvi an an MJ Akbar to take the Indian government to task for bending and scraping before Middle Eastern despots. Compare the sharp criticism that greeted Mearshimer and Walt's anti-Israel book to the wild praises a piece of trash like Martha Nussbaum's latest that all but singles out Gujaratis for an intellectual broadside or Sen's apologia for jihadophiles "Identity and...". Sen BTW hasn't been called to account for lending the Bangladesh government legitimacy by ignoring its pogramatic behaviour towards minorities for the last several years. Thanks to SN Balagangadara we are seeing the beginnings of a intellectually informed articulation of Hindu tradition whose review of Sen's "Argumentative..." (it is intelligently mediocre) remains a classic.

>A coalition of Indian American individuals and organizations

Good to know that Prashad is not the only person clinging to her to ward of irrelevance.

290 · ltr said

Re: US Policy on Hindu Nationalist Groups in India and the US

Sonal may be mentioned pretty far down, but she remains the main point of this letter. I suppose some of us could post objections to the letter or a link to this discussion to change.gov as well.

291 · jyotsana said

Sen's apologia for jihadophiles "Identity and...".

it requires an extraordinary persecution and victimization complex to see this mild mannered book as an apologia (independent of what you think of its quality).

is sonal shah out yet?

57 · melbourne desi said

... When the USA can elect Bush twice then Modi as PM of India is not so bad.

Filthy crappola. After 9/11, one of the first, I repeat first, things I heard him say was to reiterate the need not to victimise innocent muslims and hos resolve to protect them. That is way more than what Modi, LK Advani or Vajpayee managed during the 2002 riots.

149 · Ponniyin Selvan said

Nothing justifies violence

And everything you say justifies Modi. Bad logic is the hallmark of the Right

This is supposed to be a south asian forum, not an Indian forum
I submit that the VHP is more liberal to minorities than
the most secular parties in Pakistan or Bangladesh

Compare the post 1947 ethnic cleansing in both
Pakistan and Bangladesh vs India

If the same yardstick against Sonal is used
every Pakistani and Bangladeshi muslim immigrant must
be automatically disqualified

liberal,

291 · jyotsana said
Sen's apologia for jihadophiles "Identity and...".
it requires an extraordinary persecution and victimization complex to see this mild mannered book as an apologia (independent of what you think of its quality).

No it simply requires some clear thinking and plainspeaking. The author Sen (with his overblown claims of being a Sanskritist!) is asking us to ignore all those violence threatening protests in Europe (demonstrators brandishing posters calling for all kinds of violence against the government and Jyllands-Posten) and the many actual incidents of violence in India, the craven, terror-appeasing members of the Andhra Pradesh state legislature who passed a resolution condemning Denmark, and the spineless Indian federal administration that withdrew an official initation to the PM of Denmark. So that's liberal's definition of a mild- mannered book? Threatening Jyllands-Posten journalists with death and killing Theo Van Gogh or threatening Geert Van Wilders with bodily harm is victimisation and persecution. An academic like Amartya Sen who tries to distract us with high flown syrupy prose and asks us to forget these facts is not simply a spineless appeaser but an active agent sustaining intolerance. Dishonesty personified.

We know why the entire Indian-Pakistani cabal of progressive hacks have kept out of the vigorous debate on secularism/skepticism/atheism here in the US, a coutry where they have found a comfortable perch to live and work in. That is because Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris/Dennet/Pat Condell/Paul Kurtz attack all belief and doctrine while for the Prashad type pseudo-progressive crowd only Hinduism represents fair game and Zionism (a convenient mask in the argument that attempts to privilege one belief system over several others) is the only modern ideology targeted for attack. This is such a vile and willfully dishonest intellectual sham.

The VHP and RSS have been respected Hindu organizations for decades, serving society and bringing together the four main faiths that originated in India: Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains

If you think that the RSS has brought together Hindus and Sikhs, I've got a bridge to sell you. Amongst most Sikhs the RSS is seen as a strongly hostile anti-Sikh organization. I could put it more directly and crudely but I want to follow our own guidelines.

In addition, I love how you compare Sangh sponsored violence to the Crusades to excuse it, rather than condemn it.

300 · jyotsana said

No it simply requires some clear thinking and plainspeaking.

i think you should read the book, not spout out your prejudices on things amartya sen did not say in the book. of course, reading the book will require you to stop frothing, so maybe that's not an option.

301 · Ennis said

In addition, I love how you compare Sangh sponsored violence to the Crusades to excuse it, rather than condemn it.

The beautiful logic of Sangh apologists: "They are scum. We are noble because we are only doing what they do."

And everything you say justifies Modi. Bad logic is the hallmark of the Right

That's right. :-)

Added to my earlier comment. Do you know the year when the riots were deadliest in Ahmedabad?. (Hint: it is not 2002).

Hindus and Muslims have been killing each other for a long time. It is not because of Modi.

>If you think that the RSS has brought together Hindus and Sikhs, I've got a bridge to sell you. Amongst most Sikhs the RSS is seen as a strongly hostile anti-Sikh organization.

This is a recent development, after Sikhs drank the magic potion from across the border. In most of its history, starting from 1925, the RSS has had a good relationship with Sikhs.

Historical context is not the strongest feature of this blog. But to be fair, blogging is not about history, it is reactionary journalism.

302 · liberal said

300 · jyotsana said

No it simply requires some clear thinking and plainspeaking.

i think you should read the book, not spout out your prejudices on things amartya sen did not say in the book. of course, reading the book will require you to stop frothing, so maybe that's not an option.

You should read a way lot more than Sen's syrupy paperbacks. For a start you could read about those Martians I have been talking about, like those folk you seem to have no idea about Condell/Hitchens/Dawkins etc., But reading of course would require to sweep out the cobwebs from your mind, so maybe that's not an option for the lazy parrot?

307 · jyotsana said

You should read a way lot more than Sen's syrupy paperbacks.

step 1: make a comment about sen's book
step 2: when asked to defend said comments, say that other books written by other people justify this comment
i see the "logic".

the RSS/VHP to ask Christian and Muslim Indians to consider an India centered belief and practice?

"consider", like corleone made moe green an offer he couldn't refuse :) you fit the sangh apologist model to a tee.

If the same yardstick against Sonal is used every Pakistani and Bangladeshi muslim immigrant must be automatically disqualified

G Subramaniam, are you using the term yardstick to mean a kind of three foot lathi to beat Sonal with or something used to take her measure against Muslim immigrants to India from Bangla Desh and Pakistan? In the latter case, are you saying these immigrants import biases/hostilities into India that are more harmful than what the VHP-A comes up with and brings to India??

i really wish i could live the life of charmed innocence that sonal shah seems to have led, believing in verdant grass fields with loping unicorns and dotted with rainbows, trusting in santa claus and the tooth fairy, and gifted with a complete lack of knowledge of the brazen doings of the vhp in india.

305 · Bleah said

>If you think that the RSS has brought together Hindus and Sikhs, I've got a bridge to sell you. Amongst most Sikhs the RSS is seen as a strongly hostile anti-Sikh organization.
This is a recent development, after Sikhs drank the magic potion from across the border. In most of its history, starting from 1925, the RSS has had a good relationship with Sikhs.
Historical context is not the strongest feature of this blog. But to be fair, blogging is not about history, it is reactionary journalism.

I don't know who told you that the RSS had a good relationship with the Sikhs. My grandfather never had a kind word to say about them, and neither have any of the Sikhs I've spoken to who were alive in that period. Yes, there was a period of accommodation, right around partition, but it was temporary and the result of a common challenge.

Where do you pick up your history? From RSS books? Have you bothered to ask any Sikhs how they feel about the RSS? My grandfather was a strict Indian nationalist, so slur against those who disagree with you doesn't hold. What he couldn't stand about the RSS was that they were assimilationist, saying that Sikhs were Hindus. This is the same grievance which caused the Sikh representatives to refuse to sign the Indian constitution.

If you're going to be patronizing, you should at least have done a modicum of research, as in have talked to a Sikh about this issue.

If the same yardstick against Sonal is used every Pakistani and Bangladeshi muslim immigrant must be automatically disqualified

The point here isn't religion, it's leadership in the American wing of the VHPA. Do you think that all muslim immigrants have a similar background?

My grandfather never had a kind word to say about them, and neither have any of the Sikhs I've spoken to who were alive in that period. Yes, there was a period of accommodation, right around partition, but it was temporary and the result of a common challenge.

What do you think about Tara Singh being one of the founders of the VHP ??.

What do you think about Tara Singh being one of the founders of the VHP ??.

I'm not thrilled by it. He was 79 at the time and died 3 years later. It's not clear to me how deep his involvement was but he has gotten a lot of criticism for it within the Sikh community.

When I've asked, people tell me that the VHP of 1964 was also a very different organization from the VHP of the 1980s and beyond, but I don't know how much of that is people making excuses.

I wonder whether this was a strategic move to try to gain support from Hindu Punjabis for Punjab state. If so, it failed badly.

Sikhs rights, or those of any group, should not be based on "Hinduness", but Ennis & Camille I've always found it curious about how eager Sikhs are to minimize any connection to Hinduism. I agree with V. Prashad, on this rare matter, that Jainism/Buddhism did not descend from Hinduism (as defined by the VHP, apparently the only Hindu org he knows) but rather that Brahminical Hinduism/Jainism/Buddhism emerged from the same pot. But I've never understood why he directs this lesson to Hindus. Most Hindus schooled or otherwise recognize the non-Abrahamic religions of South Asia as strange yet familiar. If only because when someone says this is my god and he is in the form of a tree we don't find it absurd, unlike Muslims/Christians. I am not "othering" them by saying this, simply stating a fact and reiterating their taxonomy of religions.

I wonder whether this was a strategic move to try to gain support from Hindu Punjabis for Punjab state. If so, it failed badly.

Why so?. A separate Sikh dominated Punjab was carved out in 1966. isn't it?.

Rob & Ponniyan Selvan, I understand where you are coming from and I place blame for the growing popularity of the Hindu far right at the feet of the Left. But I don't see the ascendancy of the VHP as being a good thing for Hindus, they will cause our brains to ossify. I compare it to VS Naipaul's critique of the Vijayanagar dynasty, which while successfuly repelling Islamic conquest became "stuck" and just basically regurgitated anachronisms

this seems to a typical case of hindus/muslims/jews leaning toward democrats in u.s while they support the right wingers in their own countries. this, i believe, is more common among indians than anyone else - VHP gets most of the funding from usa, and yet they are mostly democrats. the true liberal/progressive ideals are generally transcendent across national boundaries, what this tells me is that these people are really conservatives, and being in the u.s and a minority, is just a convenient position for them. for example, there are plenty of 'anti-war activists' and 'liberals' among muslims in the U.S, but how many of them truly support the liberal views on gay rights and women's rights? How do they view abortion, death penalty, etc? You would see most of them keeping a silence or leaning toward conservatives on those issues.

Can someone who is calling for an end to questions to Shah tell me how you reconcile that idea with the lack of forthrightness and in some cases truth in the statements she made and how many more questions than answers they pose?

1. “my personal politics have nothing in common with the views espoused by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), or any such organization� 2. “I’ve always condemned any politics of division, of ethnic or religious hatred, of violence and intimidation as a political tool� 3. “factually inaccurate internet rumors have attempted to link me to Hindu Nationalist groups through a variety of tenuous connections: Relief work I’m proud to have helped coordinate following the Gujarati earthquake of 2001 … “ 4. “I do not subscribe to the views of such Hindu nationalist groups, and never have�

I don't understand this given that 3 is simply false and omits mention that she was on the governing board of VHP-A, and 1,2 and 4 mean either that she helped run an organization for three years whose views she didn't believe in or they are false or there is some other explanation that I am not grasping.

Ennis - thanks for blogging this. Repeatedly. I've been sending links(under different id's) to your posts to various people who I think can hopefully influence this administration against Sonal Shah's appointment.

Of course, I personally think that Sonal Shah is a great pick. I just don't want this upcoming administration to benefit from her wisdom.

M. Nam

318 · najeeb said

for example, there are plenty of 'anti-war activists' and 'liberals' among muslims in the U.S, but how many of them truly support the liberal views on gay rights and women's rights? How do they view abortion, death penalty, etc? You would see most of them keeping a silence or leaning toward conservatives on those issues.

This is a good point Najeeb. The head of CAIR endorsed, as an individual, the Republicans in 2000. It was for their perceived support of traditional values. Most of that vote has now gone to Obama but their support is based on the idea that he will have a less aggressive posture towards the Muslim world rather than domestic social policy.

320 · MoorNam said

I've been sending links(under different id's) to your posts to various people who I think can hopefully influence this administration against Sonal Shah's appointment.

Niccolo bows to the master.

277 · newbie said

OK Intern, time to close this thread. Invariably after 300 posts this is where we always get after every blog posting touching the communal-secular issue. Can we have some eye candy please.

Interesting to see that above comment was made obviously when there were more than 300 comments, but because the Intern has been going around deleting several comments above poster's comments goes to #277 making their statement factually inaccurate.

Ennis

Amongst most Sikhs the RSS is seen as a strongly hostile anti-Sikh organization

Isn't Akali Dal a major BJP ally? (The BJP being the political wing of the RSS?)

I just want to say up front, I'm 100% on board with Ennis on this one.

louciecypher, Sikhs are resistant to the constant attempts to assimilate them or recast the faith as a "sect of Hinduism." It's one of the most pernicious pieces of misinformation that goes out in the world. They're not opposed to the idea that the faith originated or gained a following in the subcontinent. The distinction makes a HUGE difference. In my opinion, this is why there's such a huge resistance to bringing up any religious history narratives that include Hinduism -- it later gets twisted and utilized as a rationale/support for a political argument (i.e., that we are a sect) that most Sikhs find offensive because in its dishonesty.

jyotsana, I don't care if there are organizations who are in favor of ejecting other groups from their state -- I disagree with nearly all of them. Bad behavior on one end does not excuse it on the other, and the existence of previous moments of violence does not excuse someone from the harm they create when they provoke communalistic violence later. The Hutus don't get out of blame for launching a genocide against the Tutsis, regardless of histories of problematic relations and colonial meddling in the political/ethnic system of Rwanda. I honestly do not understand how any decent human being could accept, support, or tolerate a policy of ejection, violence, and exclusion, let alone a political party that actively campaigns on that theme.

PS, there's certainly a strong number of Sikhs who look at the separation of Haryana and Punjab not as a "carving out of a Sikh-dominated Punjab," but rather as a second partition that sought to reify separation and Hindutva instead of Punjabi-ness.

324 · Lupus Solitarius said

Ennis

Amongst most Sikhs the RSS is seen as a strongly hostile anti-Sikh organization

Isn't Akali Dal a major BJP ally? (The BJP being the political wing of the RSS?)

I wouldn't go by this, coalition govts. are purely practical. None of the major Tamil parties are ideologically sympathetic with the VHP but that does not stop them from forming alliances with the BJP. These regional parties win favor from the central govt. by delivering votes

Amongst most Sikhs the RSS is seen as a strongly hostile anti-Sikh organization

Electoral politics for Sikhs is an awful and stupid process. You can say we vote for X or Y party, but it's not a good proxy for actual support. In the words of my nanaji, the difference between BJP and Congress is the difference between being shot or hung. The same feeling permeates across other parties, even those who claim to be Sikh-representing.

Bad behavior on one end does not excuse it on the other

NO! It's only bad behavior if they do it.

louiecypher,
My point is that ultimately these political parties depend on the population for their votes. And if the RSS was indeed seen as a strongly hostile anti-Sikh organisation amongst most Sikhs, then no political party claiming to represent the Sikhs would touch it with a long bamboo stick. To give an example, the RSS IS considered strongly anti Muslim by many Muslims,and no self respecting Muslim political outfit will ever ally with the BJP. That is one of the reasons the Samajwadi Party is so anti-BJP, to keep it's most important vote bank happy.
The fact that the BJP- Akali dal stand elections together and do win sometimes to me is proof that not most Sikhs see BJP/RSS as strongly anti Sikh.

316 · louiecypher Rob & Ponniyan Selvan, I understand where you are coming from and I place blame for the growing popularity of the Hindu far right at the feet of the Left. But I don't see the ascendancy of the VHP as being a good thing for Hindus, they will cause our brains to ossify.

Fair concern, but I'll do my best to be a "liberalizing" force within VHP-A. ;-)

No Sikh party would touch the RSS with a 10 foot pole right now.

As for the BJP, in the 1980s they promised to take up the issue of prosecuting the Congress party flaks who had been involved in the 1984 Delhi Pogroms.

In addition, yes, there are political alliances. Given that Congress and BJP are the two major parties, Sikh politicians have to ally with one or the other, or be made irrelevant.

320 · MoorNam said

Of course, I personally think that Sonal Shah is a great pick. I just don't want this upcoming administration to benefit from her wisdom.

I hope you keep up your devious efforts. Since your thinking is almost always ass backwards, you will be really helpful more often than not.

And then there was the Sidhu

PS, there's certainly a strong number of Sikhs who look at the separation of Haryana and Punjab not as a "carving out of a Sikh-dominated Punjab," but rather as a second partition that sought to reify separation and Hindutva instead of Punjabi-ness.

I don't know the details of the partition of Punjab into Sikh Punjab and Hindu Haryana. I thought the demand was from the Sikhs and Nehru was adamant not to have another religious partition, it was only achieved after his death. So do you know the details??.

Remember it was the time when various states were created based on language and separation was not considered a bad thing.

But I don't see the ascendancy of the VHP as being a good thing for Hindus, they will cause our brains to ossify.

That's right. I don't see it as good either. They are agitating for many causes that I don't identify with (like Ram Setu / Ayodhya / cow slaughter etc.. etc..).

But I gotta do what I gotta do. Time to unite against jihad. :-)

335 · Ponniyin Selvan said

But I gotta do what I gotta do. Time to unite against jihad. :-)

good idea! since we all know communal violence is a winning strategy!

liberal/liberal parrot,

when you are called out for being a parrot stop parroting. simple. all that you have to do is to compare the syrupy apologetic of Amartya Sen on behalf of extremists with the crystal clear denunciation voiced by Dawkins/Dennet/Hitchens/Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Co. Simple read and then write. Don't parrot and then parrot again. Better still quit reading rehashed trash fro mthe likes of Sen. It doesn't take much, you just gotta read...

the RSS/VHP to ask Christian and Muslim Indians to consider an India centered belief and practice?
"consider", like corleone made moe green an offer he couldn't refuse :) you fit the sangh apologist model to a tee.

You must be analogically challenged to compare the work of a soul harvester or a an Anjem Choudhry (self-appointed Sharia Judge of UK who will not condemn 7/7 because it was committed by Muslims or the Hyderbad thug one of whom is an MP no less who thinks it is OK to thrash Taslima Nasrin) with an interpretation of faith in a different tradition. You fit the jihadophilic appeasing compromiser model to a Tee. Nice work! But do read Dawkins and watch Pat Condell, you may actually learn something!!

Camille, I don't care if there are organizations who are in favor of ejecting other groups from their state -- I disagree with nearly all of them.

And since when did V.Prashad become an expert on the many religions he holds forth on? What is this brahminical Buddhism/Jainism he is blabbering about?

louciecypher, Sikhs are resistant to the constant attempts to assimilate them or recast the faith as a "sect of Hinduism." It's one of the most pernicious pieces of misinformation that goes out in the world. They're not opposed to the idea that the faith originated or gained a following in the subcontinent. The distinction makes a HUGE difference. In my opinion, this is why there's such a huge resistance to bringing up any religious history narratives that include Hinduism -- it later gets twisted and utilized as a rationale/support for a political argument (i.e., that we are a sect) that most Sikhs find offensive because in its dishonesty.

Camille: I understand the distinction. No one is going to argue that Christianity and Judaism are the same religion, though every serious scholar of Christianity looks at the origin of that faith through the prism of the Judaism at that time. There was Hinduism in Punjab 500 years ago and the early adherents of Sikhism came from this background. I find it telling that you can't even seem to allow this point.. you seem to feel that Sikhism merely originated in South Asia and that's all that it has in common with Hinduism. I think this is hyperbole, Sikhism as a Hindu sect is the most pernicious piece of misinformation? Compared to what? While I accept that it is not true, please tell me what great tragedy has befallen the Sikh people based on this? Were the directors of the anti-Sikh pogroms motivated by a desire to humble a breakaway sect? Where do you put this on the scale of misinformation between "You can die from eating poprocks and drinking coke at the same time" and the Blood Libel does this fit?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Simultaneously inclusive and othering

Are we still on Sonal?

Ennis & Camille, There are Sikhs who consider their faith to be completely outside the realm of Hinduism and there are Sikhs who do see a connection between the two. This is specially true in India and probably less true in US/Canada (going by all the Khalistani posters i have seen in gurudwaras in the americas). There are Hindu families (Sindhi & Punjabis)who have direct Sikh relatives. In India, you will see Sikh worshippers in temples and Hindu worshippers in gurudwaras. In fact even now many sindhi gurudwaras in India have a sikh priest but the worshippers are primarily Hindus.

Is there and has there been tension between RSS and Sikh organizations. Ofcourse it has and will continue to be. But it is also true that Sikhs abroad - maybe due to identity issues - have tried to drive more of a wedge between the two communities than is true on the ground in India. I have a liberal Sikh friend who got radicalized while here in US but is now back to original himself after going back to India.

(Kloser, for the record, there were not 300 posts when i asked the intern to shut it down. It was just an approximation. I just get frustated on this issue because we have the same repeat performance from posters - perhaps even from me. Not sure if one person has changed their mind on the issue at hand)

This is going into nitpicking space, but there is nothing else one can do when goalposts change.

I was responding to:

>Amongst most Sikhs the RSS is seen as a strongly hostile anti-Sikh organization.

You say now:

>My grandfather never had a kind word to say about them, and neither have any of the Sikhs I've spoken to who were alive in that period. Yes, there was a period of accommodation, right around partition, but it was temporary and the result of a common challenge.

I don't consider your latter statement as supporting hostility. Sikhs were part of RSS shakhas before the Khalistan movement. Even now, the BJP has an electoral partnership with Akali Dal. The BJP has Sikh MPs, and it was the BJP and RSS who stood up to the Congress goons during and after the Delhi riots. I consider all this an indication of cordial relations.

I also don't consider the RSS assimilative, in the sense of asking to "become one of us". It doesn't ask anyone to give up their other identities and follow Hinduism. The RSS says everyone living in India is part of Hindu culture, but people have other identities beyond that. I consider that approach integrative, rather than assimilative. You can quibble about this, but that doesn't amount to hostility in my book. Hostility is when someone says only their identity is right, other identities are wrong, and have no right to exist. Then there is no meeting ground, which is clearly not the case between RSS and Sikhs in India. Though, given your experience, I am not sure about the Sikhs in this part of the world.

>Where do you pick up your history? From RSS books?

No, I picked up history by being alive before 1970. And yes, also by speaking to elders. You are right that I haven't spoken to older generation Sikhs about their feelings towards RSS, but that's not something you ask when you see Sikhs in shakhas. Things changed after 1980s, but not because of the RSS.

337 · jyotsana said

when you are called out for being a parrot stop parroting.

because you told me to, you pompous bilious frothing idiot? when you are called a pompous bilious frothing idiot, stop being bilious and frothing. idiocy seems more deeply ingrained, so i won't ask you to eliminate something that you can't.

You must be analogically challenged

when you call what the rss/vhp does "consideration", it says that all one needs to know about you.

keep frothing and perpetuating the cycle of hate. that seems to be the only thing you're good at.

has sonal shah been kicked to the kerb yet?

soul harvesting is the most hilariously and paranoically eerie sounding concept ever. ooga booga!!!!

Ok, as I was going to come back and agree with you on ONE of your points Ennis, I see that my previous post has been erased. Thanks for that. I won't even bother.

343 · liberal said

soul harvesting is the most hilariously and paranoically eerie sounding concept ever. ooga booga!!!!

I don't care for the loser strain of Hindutva. They may have some legit grievances against the central govt over the control of Hindu temple revenues & charities, but trying to outlaw or prevent conversion is ridiculous. If they cut it out and made the tribals a better offer, i.e. supported their indigenous religious practices/languages and provided them with education & health without strings it would be far better than what the Baptists have on tap. Not to mention the anthropologist who are the only other group you find out there would suddenly be singing the praises of the Hindu groups and they tend to drink with their journo buddies.

>trying to outlaw or prevent conversion is ridiculous

Maybe. But Israel is trying it too.

>If they cut it out and made the tribals a better offer, i.e. supported their indigenous religious practices/languages and provided them with education & health without strings it would be far better than what the Baptists have on tap.

Not really. Why are the rich Israelis worried about conversion? Even Catholic churches in Kerala are worried about Evangelical conversions. This is a much more complex issue than money, though the credit crunch should see the evangelical ethusiasm dropping a bit.

I'm not sure whether the Yale swish set will quite approve of this new move of yours. :)

Port, interestingly, I've told a few (well, 5 so far) of my posher friends that I joined a "Hindu nationalist movement" and they, to a person, responded with the sentiment that that was "cool." Again, I think to be surprised at this fact is to misleadingly conjoin campus politics with American politics. Apparently, academics these days ranging from Vijay Prashad to Martha Nussbaum are slandering Hindus, and too many youngsters are getting brainwashed into believing this claptrap. But, your average American views Hindus as (1) model minority and/or (2) as co-equal victims (of That Which Must Not be Named), and not as bad guys at all. Also, keep in mind that the posh set stateside includes a lot of Jews, and they tend (in my experience) to be quite aware of the Hindu right/Israel affinity.

liberal

soul harvesting is the most hilariously and paranoically eerie sounding concept ever

But Israel is trying it too.

and india should become a theocratic state too.

I don't care for the loser strain of Hindutva. They may have some legit grievances against the central govt over the control of Hindu temple revenues & charities, but trying to outlaw or prevent conversion is ridiculous. If they cut it out and made the tribals a better offer, i.e. supported their indigenous religious practices/languages and provided them with education & health without strings it would be far better than what the Baptists have on tap. Not to mention the anthropologist who are the only other group you find out there would suddenly be singing the praises of the Hindu groups and they tend to drink with their journo buddies.

i agree, intimidation and violence are what these losers resort to, because conversion at least offers some of these communities the hope of leaving the caste system - however meaningful that might be, whereas the hindu orgs could win their hearts and minds by providing tangible services that would actually help them.. but that would be too hard. much better to whinge about pamphlets and soul harvesting to defend the vhp as the losers here do.

348 · Lupus Solitarius said

It sure is

and those who fear it are as crazy as those who work towards it.

347 · rob said

Again, I think to be surprised at this fact is to misleadingly conjoin campus politics with American politics

so it is moral as long as your elite buddies ok it? interesting.

so it is moral as long as your elite buddies ok it? interesting.

An act is moral iff (if and only if) it has positive consequences for rob.

> because conversion at least offers some of these communities the hope of leaving the caste system -

Not true. Low-caste Christian converts in Kerala are looked down upon by the Syrian Christians, they are called "ari" (Rice) Christians. The Syrian Christians like to boast that they were originally Brahmins, though there is no evidence for this.

Conversion just replaces your god and culture, it doesn't change your social status, as any Native Indian/Maori knows. Conversion is, and always has been, a form of cultural imperialism.

>whereas the hindu orgs could win their hearts and minds by providing tangible services that would actually help them..

This is true, and I fully support it. But then, the Ekal Vidyalayas who try to do this get blocked by Christian lobbies who pose as leftie liberals. So we are back to Sonal Shah.

347 · rob said

of That Which Must Not be Named

heh

Brother Bleah, I urge a "truce" with the Christians. We must focus our efforts, the straining of every sinew, against the "near enemy" before we confront the "far enemy." For now, let us fight in the "House of War" only. ;-)

355 · rob said

Brother Bleah, I urge a "truce" with the Christians

i think the vhp has proven itself capable of fighting the good fight against christians and muslims, so don't get trapped in a zero sum fallacy. killing scales well.

even if it involves support of violence against others not rob. scum.

ohhh--that makes me feel all tingly and manly when you call me "scum." Please, call me a fascist--that'll really turn me on.

This is true, and I fully support it. But then, the Ekal Vidyalayas who try to do this get blocked by Christian lobbies who pose as leftie liberals. So we are back to Sonal Shah.

It's hard to believe that's what they are doing. They are suddenly taking an interest in people they considered beyond the pale simply because the missionaries are there. Despite the brimfire many of the missionaries promise us in the hereafter I have a hard time believing that any Christian groups were involved in the murder of that swami. It's the Maoists doing what they do and even if the hitmen were nominally Christian it does not prove that Christian groups are culpable. Don't get me wrong, if these missionary groups were truly sincere they would be doing the kind of nonevangelical work well meaning groups like Catholic Relief Services does. But the VHP can't seem to think themselves outside of a box. They should focus on the structural disadvantages of being a Hindu NGO in India as part of a larger drive to go from pseudosecularism to true secularism and it won't even be a contest...Indic religions will vie with agnosticism for hearts and minds (just as Buddhism seems to be neck & neck with reductionism among the elite in the West)

Liberal

and those who fear it are as crazy as those who work towards it.

I don't have anything against Christians, thank you very much. I'm the "new face" of the VHP--we're re-branding ourselves, don'tcha know.

Brother Bleah, I urge a "truce" with the Christians. We must focus our efforts, the straining of every sinew, against the "near enemy" before we confront the "far enemy." For now, let us fight in the "House of War" only. ;-)

I kinda like Brother Bleah, actually! :)

I am gonna sign off soon, more interesting things to do than argue with Lefties, something I've been doing all my life. It is very entertaining, especially over Old Monk, but not very productive. I totally respect their sentiments, but they really need to discard their framework, which is not very coherent, and comes with lots of unnecessary blinkers. It also doesn't do justice to their intelligence and curiosity. But then, Radhakrishnan and Frege don't turn on chicks, they also don't look great on a T shirt as Che! :)

I think this entire tirade against Sonal is built on lies, vendetta and politics of hatred against Hindu organizations that millions of Hindus identify with. It has all the ingredients of Gobbelian propaganda. How lies are clothed as facts, how casual and transient associations are framed as complicity - I guess Obama campaign had to face the similar witch-hunt from Right.

I do not think Sonal has to explain anything, apologize to anybody or seek anybody's approval. She is not running for elective office. She is being appointed for a non-political job. It is Obama's prerogative to appoint whomever he may choose and his criteria are qualifications and competence for the job at hand. Barring loony leftists, everybody is excited about Sonia and proud of her.

If the Hindu-baiters have issues with VHP or VHPA, they should go after these organizations and take them on. They have the government and secular laws on their side. So what is stopping them? I know they can not do nothing, because these organizations would call their bluff. For all their bluster, clinching arguments and so-called facts, they can't nail anybody from these organizations. One can build propaganda on lies and that is the easiest part they are good at. But to nail organizations and people, you need facts and evidence that can stand the scrutiny in courts. Do you think these organizations would be out there in open, and their enemies would let them go scotfree if there has been even an iota of evidence against them? VHP and VHPA have been operating in open for decades, and millions of Hindus support them, and millions of people have benefitted from humanitarian and welfare work done by them. During Gujarat Earth Quake, people rallied behind VHPA because it was the largest charity that had a proven track record. VHP and its sister organizations in Gujarat provided the largest mobilization of welfare and relief efforts ever seen in the history of India. Millions of people benefitted from it. Thanks to thousands of volunteers like Sonal. VHP conducts countless charity and welfare projects year around and anyone can become part of coordinating or organizing council of such projects. Anybody who wants to participate and contribute can become part of such coordination committees - yes, even people who have never worked for VHP before and people who do not know anything about VHP. Its so-called ideology may be discernable to outsiders and politicians of certain persuasions but people who work for VHP don't even notice it in their experience working within VHP. I have several friends who have worked for VHP from inside and none of them look like monsters or hate-driven maniacs. I think these sonal-haters are projecting their own monstrosity and hatred on Sonal.

I don't have anything against Christians, thank you very much. I'm the "new face" of the VHP--we're re-branding ourselves, don'tcha know.

i like that word - rebranding. don't change the product, just the label. i wonder how nun rape and incitement will be "branded" in the new vhp.

kp @361, substitute vhp/vhpa with hezbollah/hamas, and hindu with muslim.

Strobe: "substitute vhp/vhpa with hezbollah/hamas, and hindu with muslim."

Guilt not only by association, but by cut and paste too? Just because hezbollah/hamas may be terrible, everything you choose to cut and paste as a substitute is supposed to be terrible too? No wonder you have to build your clinching arguments and demonizations by cut and paste job, and why people do not take them seriously.

if you need me to spell it out for you - i do not see a single sentence in your comment that would be rendered incorrect by the substitution.

I think the point that strobe is making is that just like these VHP and any other organization there are extremists and then ordinary people that are trying to do good things to help people.

Just like there are people in the U.S. who live a very normal life and support VHP and other organizations in India and other places there are people in the U.S. and India and the Middle East who live very normal lives that support and fund Hezbollah. You might call it a terrorist group but in Lebanon its also a political organization. Many in Lebanon see Hezbollah as the only defence against attacks. So there are normal people in those groups that want to do nothing but help people. BUT I'm guessing that you would not want someone living next to you that is sending raising money and sending it overseas to Hezbollah or Hamas ? Even though Hamas was elected democratically in Palestine and Hezbollah feeds earth quake victims.

If your neighbor is funding any group in Israel , there are parts of those organizations that have extremists, so are you comfortable with that, too?

The nun rape allegation is being investigated, but it is far from clear that what happened in Orissa wasn't another instance of a ongoing religious and political battle between the Missionaries, VHP, Congress and BJP.

Christian missionary involvement-
A new breed

Maoists say they killed the VHP leader and that their cadre are mostly Christians -
We killed VHP leader
Maoist cadres are Christians

Congress MP is sought for VHP leader's murder-
Cops chasing Congress MP

Nun alleges gang-rape-
Gangrape allegation

Nun changes story to say no gang-rape happened-
Hindu man saved me from gangrape

And a story referring a similar sequence of events from 1999 where four nuns were raped ... by Christians.

Jhabua nun rape case

I have one basic question about Sonal Shah, forgive me if it sounds too naive, how can an American citizen living in America whose father was associated with the VHP wing of America, be in anyway responsible for not preventing the riots or even be called a complicit in those. How should she have prevented the riots if she wanted to. Should we judge people based on individual actions or actions of parents or relatives. What happened to the concept of person as an individual? Going by reasoning as this, it seems many more people would be held responsible for things they have absolutely no part in. Allegations like these seem like political gimmickry to me.

she was also a hack for asha for education.
AASHA, VHP, Camp Obama. She was trying to prov herself to be obamaworthy like ayers.

A very interesting article in Outlook India. Pity most religious institutions do not try to emphasize this kind of tack - pan-denominational without reduction to triteness about universality.

more evidence on sonal shah's lack of honesty in her forced mea non culpa.

Man, that story about Sonal is pretty damning. It looks like the immaculate Ms. Shah was less forthcoming than we thought about her involvement in the VHP. I wonder where her army of defenders is now?

It looks like the immaculate Ms. Shah was less forthcoming than we thought about her involvement in the VHP.

well, that we knew. i think this drip-drip-drip of revelations shows that she was even less forthcoming and even more disingenuous than we thought.

371 · pants on fire said

more evidence on sonal shah's lack of honesty in her forced mea non culpa.

Here's a quote from your article. "At one point she made reference to the Indian branch of the VHP, or VHP Bharat, as a model: "Why don't we focus on improving the lives of its citizens, etc. That's where VHP Bharat's strength is -- people remember that.""

Damn her for trying to refocus the VHP's energies into something more productive. I know your type, talking about things from a "South Asian" perspective but somehow leaving Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Kashmiri Hindus out of the "South Asian" human rights equation. Must be lonely at PTR

At one point she made reference to the Indian branch of the VHP, or VHP Bharat, as a model:

did she also refer to hezbollah? and how come her statement doesn't even seem to know now what she knew then? of course, she says that if she knew then what she knows now, she would've stayed away. boy, the time travel sure does get confusing.

I know your type

do you now?

talking about things from a "South Asian" perspective

did i now?

374 · people_in_glass_houses said

I know your type, talking about things from a "South Asian" perspective but somehow leaving Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Kashmiri Hindus out of the "South Asian" human rights equation. Must be lonely at PTR

Actually, you don't, not exactly. And please don't bring up the "South Asia" issue. We've gone through it enough over the past four+ years. The commenter to whom you are responding is not someone from PTR- which just goes to show that it's dangerous to assume such things or accuse them, when you have no way of knowing.

Something that more of the supposedly educated people who insist on casting Muslims as a fifth column that must be treated with utmost prejudice and funding vile organizations that thrive on inciting communal hatred destroying the already fragile civil society in India.

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