Why do Muslims dudes try to "Ginger" themselves up? I have seen this alot and I still dont know why this is done. Any explanations?

Re: ginger heads, it's mehndi/henna being used as hair dye. there's also a legend that the old sufi saints and various holy men used to do it. it's also cheap (and free if you can find the plants and make it yourself).

I guess unlike most of his speeches, Obama's orders to the CIA droned on :-)

1 · ShallowThinker said

Why do Muslims dudes try to "Ginger" themselves up? I have seen this alot and I still dont know why this is done. Any explanations?

Mary-Ann once made some islamophobic comments to Gilligan.

I am sure DailyKos has an explanation of how all of this was Bush or even better Cheney's fault.

1 · ShallowThinker said

Why do Muslims dudes try to "Ginger" themselves up? I have seen this alot and I still dont know why this is done. Any explanations?

I didn't know it was Muslim-specific. I thought it was because Hindi and Urdu speaking parents call their kids "Mere lal", who therefore associated "red" with "affection". But Wikipedia, the bastion of authoritah, says:

Red is the preferred dyeing colour in Islam. It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad used to dye his hair red using Henna.[citation needed]

Isalmists tend to really have a problem with spelling. My all time fav was the "Death to Juice" one I saw couple week backs in one of the rabid anti-Israeli demo's.

As far as the ginger look, I think it's hilarious. That fat pakjabi tart(Saeed?) who heads up LeT/JuD or whatever they're calling themselves now also has that dye job. All they need is to chew some pan and get their teeth to match.

Imagine if OBL came on a tape with the ginger look. I'm just glad Obama is telling the Pakistan Army to shove it when it comes to Al Qaeda.

6 · pingpong said

Red is the preferred dyeing colour in Islam. It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad used to dye his hair red using Henna.[citation needed]

Henna, like circumcision (both male and female), predates Islam by thousands of years. It originated in northeast Africa (ancient Egypt or Ethiopia), like so many other middle-eastern customs, practices and beliefs.

Isalmists tend to really have a problem with spelling. My all time fav was the "Death to Juice" one I saw couple week backs in one of the rabid anti-Israeli demo's.

Maybe there were talking about O.J Simpson.

9 · Suki Dillon said

Isalmists tend to really have a problem with spelling. My all time fav was the "Death to Juice" one I saw couple week backs in one of the rabid anti-Israeli demo's.

Maybe there were talking about O.J Simpson.

Or maybe the terrorists were (paraphrasing comedian Katt Williams) "angry at breakfast...Are you gangbanging on bacon?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jpT_UJE-Iw (at 1:28).

Bombing on Tribs?
Seriously, I want to shake the hand of the joker who proof-reads the Islamist banners

No Really, South Asians Against Obama

I think that should be the other way around ;) Maybe he's one of them Hindutva commenters on this board - says nice things about Hinduism, likes bombing Pakistan, doesn't give a $hit about Palestinians...

Here's the "Death to all juice" picture. (It's from an Islamaphobic website, though, so click with caution.)

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024131.php

I read somewhere that after you visit the Haj pilgrimage muslims are supposed to colour their beards red. It is indication that the person at the center has been to Mecca

if you consider all the sugar in the juice, that is not a bad slogan to have :)

12 · Dr Amonymous said

No Really, South Asians Against Obama

I think that should be the other way around ;) Maybe he's one of them Hindutva commenters on this board - says nice things about Hinduism, likes bombing Pakistan, doesn't give a $hit about Palestinians...

The parts we're bombing aren't really part of Pakistan anymore. Pakistan claims the territory, but they don't actually have any control over the area. It is more properly referred to as Talibanistan. It Covers Northwest Pakistan and Souther Afghanistan.

12 · Dr Amonymous said

I think that should be the other way around ;) Maybe he's one of them Hindutva commenters on this board - says nice things about Hinduism, likes bombing Pakistan, doesn't give a $hit about Palestinians...

heh...and you could add: refers to frantz fanon

I read somewhere that after you visit the Haj pilgrimage muslims are supposed to colour their beards red. It is indication that the person at the center has been to Mecca

Carrot Top must vist Mecca every year.

All said and done, there is something appalling about these drones that are controlled by 'pilots' in the U.S who drop bombs with the ease of playing a computer game - actually the software interface for many of these systems are intentionally made to look like that of games. There is a fine book on this evolution of warfare - http://wiredforwar.pwsinger.com

I think the "juice" one was intentional. I wonder what he thinks about acidic juice.

A little juvenile but I wish both these mistakes would have occurred in the same banner:
http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=610xgu6.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=condompreviewhf7.jpg

I sympathize with the people up north regarding the drone attacks.

Drones kill civillians every day. Just search 'drone attacks' in Reuters, or in PK English dailies like Daily Times, Dawn, News, you'll get a story every day about families of 4, 5, 6 being killed. It's horrific, and I think it should be let up.

Al Qaeda is not enough reason to send untested automated killing machines into Pakistan's tribal areas. They're only creating more enemies.

Al Qaeda is not enough reason to send untested automated killing machines into Pakistan's tribal areas.

They have been tested very well and work as commanded.

Al Qaeda Kashmir is not enough reason to send untested automated killing machines into Pakistan's India's tribal urban areas.

Basim - "Al Qaeda is not enough reason to send untested automated killing machines into Pakistan's tribal areas."

What is Al Qaeda doing in Pakistan in the first place?

7 · Nemo said

Isalmists tend to really have a problem with spelling.

What are a "isalmist" and why is there speeling so bad?

To face a terrorism is not a joke we should join our hands to wipe it out from country i agree with your view :))
----------------------
kamal
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New Hampshire Storage Units---New Hampshire Storage Units

16 · NV said

The parts we're bombing aren't really part of Pakistan anymore. Pakistan claims the territory, but they don't actually have any control over the area. It is more properly referred to as Talibanistan. It Covers Northwest Pakistan and Souther Afghanistan.

What, you mean like the 15-20% of India that are no-go territory for the army? ;) Maybe the U.S. elite can order the bombing of those areas in the name of liberating peasants, when it decides that that's what it feels like doing.

http://www.washingtonchalo.com/

NEVER FORGET 11/26

Dr A said

15-20% of India that are no-go territory for the army?

Care to elaborate, good Doctor?

Isalmists tend to really have a problem with spelling. My all time fav was the "Death to Juice" one I saw couple week backs in one of the rabid anti-Israeli demo's.

Uuuh... I think you underestimate the intelligence of that weasel. It's a sly trick to avoid be prosecuted for making a death threat by using a seemingly harmless word that is easily seen as a homophone for his real intent. Must be an attorney or advised by one.

27 · dr amonymous said

16 · NV said

The parts we're bombing aren't really part of Pakistan anymore. Pakistan claims the territory, but they don't actually have any control over the area. It is more properly referred to as Talibanistan. It Covers Northwest Pakistan and Souther Afghanistan.

What, you mean like the 15-20% of India that are no-go territory for the army? ;) Maybe the U.S. elite can order the bombing of those areas in the name of liberating peasants, when it decides that that's what it feels like doing.

My point is that there is no place in India which is no-go for the army if the political leadership so wishes.
This Red corridor that we keep hearing about is a political problem because the weakness/complicity/apathy of our leaders. Given the orders, these areas will be easily secured. That it watches the mess from the sidelines is a proof of the IA's commitment to obey the civilian leadership as enshrined in the constitution.

33 · Lupus Solitarius said

My point is that there is no place in India which is no-go for the army if the political leadership so wishes.

Oh, you mean like Pakistan.

Dr A said

Oh, you mean like Pakistan.

No.I mean like India. As we all know quite well, there is no political civilian leadership of any consequence in Pakistan.

Why does it seem like this blog is becoming anti-paskitani and pro indian?

Rashid asked

Why does it seem like this blog is becoming anti-paskitani?

I apologize if I appear to be anti- Paskitani.
I have nothing against Paskitan.
Paskitan is good.

PS....Did you, perchance, have anything to do with creating the banner displayed above?

35 · Lupus Solitarius said

Dr A said

Oh, you mean like Pakistan.

No.I mean like India. As we all know quite well, there is no political civilian leadership of any consequence in Pakistan.

right. all those lawyers marching in the street were ISI members.

/rolls eyes. go read some ayesha jalal, dude.

Dr A
I appreciate that there has been a civil rights/Pro democracy movement of sorts in Pakistan, specially directed against the Musharraf regime. It involved lawyers and educated Pakistanis. That is commendable.
However the Army's powers are paramount in Pakistan. They control troop movements, nuclear button, and hold a veto on most important policy decisions (eg. bringing the ISI under political control, relations with India and the US).The army entities make up a large part of the nation's GDP (link),and appropriate a large share of the foreign aid meant for the "war on terror".
The civilian government is weak (though a definite improvement from being completely absent), but I don't want to guess if it will ever gain any significant autonomy or power.
And as for the marching,they certainly wouldn't be any going on here anymore

G'day
Lupus

"If the Indians are too lazy to put those commies down I'd like it if the US helped us out a bit."

that is exactly how it started in Afghanistan - care to remember? i don't know how any conscious individual could condone bombings of these sorts, when you have no visibility into who is getting killed, and the newer mechanisms like drones make it even harder to track what is going on.

All said and done, there is something appalling about these drones that are controlled by 'pilots' in the U.S who drop bombs with the ease of playing a computer game - actually the software interface for many of these systems are intentionally made to look like that of games. There is a fine book on this evolution of warfare - http://wiredforwar.pwsinger.com

There is some interesting information there, but just like many other books from "experts", it takes a very narrow view of warfare and focus far too much on the tools, which are tactical in nature. In an exchange with a friend, I wrote the following on this very subject which was in response to listening to a NPR interview by this author....

Technology affects how we fight wars, but not why. To forge peace, why a particular conflict is fought needs to be resolved for a permanent solution. This requires political, economic, and military tools for resolution, depending on the circumstances. As the current technologies continue to develop, it will aid smaller and more disenfranchised groups MORE as it provides tools that project them into a larger space than their physical limitations allow. Larger forces expose themselves less due to various reasons, yet have a need maintain tools to fight not only the smaller networks, but their more equal footed competitors as well.

The stakes of failure for each side remains the same though - casualties of your own citizens/peoples/tribes. It is not a zero sum game and while a drone allows one to react and affect tactical decisions in a real time environment, it does not mean the actions are without consequence. Insurgents have used such propaganda to devastating effect in return, despite more reliable weapons fielded today. In WWII a city was leveled if a factory wanted to be destroyed. Today a few houses clustered together. But, due to information being disseminated and controlled on an individual level (say youtube), the impact that one house with civilians in it being destroyed has a far reaching affect than that of a town/city being destroyed from previous generations. More individuals being empowered by such tools means the little guy, wrongly/rightly, can fight back.

The PTSD part (referenced in the interview) still sounded like BS. Pilots on joysticks in air conditioned rooms cannot get PTSD. A true traumatic event needs to occur that creates fear for one's life, or actually seeing death up-close. Thermal images aren't the same thing. There may be some other disorder. (edited to add: pre-existing mental health conditions or other mental health issues that get misdiagnosed as the PTSD "catch all") Read more about PTSD here....

http://www.mental-health-today.com/ptsd/dsm.htm

40 · najeeb said

"If the Indians are too lazy to put those commies down I'd like it if the US helped us out a bit."

that is exactly how it started in Afghanistan - care to remember? i don't know how any conscious individual could condone bombings of these sorts, when you have no visibility into who is getting killed, and the newer mechanisms like drones make it even harder to track what is going on.

najeeb,

I will ass-u-me for a moment that you are a good man. Will you please care to read
THE ROOT OF INDIA-PAKISTAN CONFLICTS

with conditional love from across the border
Kiran
and let me what you think about it?

i don't know how any conscious individual could condone bombings of these sorts, when you have no visibility into who is getting killed

What do you think about Hamas rockets on Israel?
What do you think about indiscrimate firing during mumbai attacks?

India was built on an entirely different worldview, inspired by the same ideals as the United States, as is evident from the Preamble to its Constitution:

“WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens: * JUSTICE, social, economic and political; * LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; * EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; * and to promote among them all * FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the [unity and integrity of the Nation]; …”

In sharp contrast, the Constitution of The Islamic Republic of Pakistan has the following Preamble:

“Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust; …”

“All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah, in this Part referred to as the Injunctions of Islam, …”

“A person who does not believe in the absolute and unqualified finality of The Prophethood of MUHAMMAD (Peace be upon him), the last of the Prophets or claims to be a Prophet, in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever , after MUHAMMAD (Peace be upon him), or recognizes such a claimant as a Prophet or religious reformer, is not a Muslim for the purposes of the Constitution or law.”

a. “I am a Muslim and believe in the absolute and unqualified finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the last of the prophets.
b. 'I do not recognize any person who claims to he prophet in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever after Muhammad (peace be upon him) or recognize such a claimant as prophet or a religious reformer as a Muslim.
c. “I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani to be an impostor nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to the Lahori or Quadiani group, to be NON-MUSLIM.”

"What do you think about Hamas rockets on Israel?
What do you think about indiscrimate firing during mumbai attacks?"

I have linked my blog in my comment. You can judge for yourself where i stand on these issues. I stand for justice, in that aspect, the innocents who died in mumbai and the INNOCENT CIVILIANS who die in the drone bombings are victims of the same injustice, though I did personally feel more infuriated after the Mumbai attacks - so i am not conflicted, if you are trying to corner me that way.

thank you najeeb. I think we need more of your kind for a better world.

Gujudude, the parameters for my view point are based on two things - 1) Is it morally right? 2) Does it yield the desired outcome? In my view, it is NO on both fronts. Then, all you are left with is a bunch of dead people and the creation of another generation of warriors for the cause of your enemies.

"India was built on an entirely different worldview, inspired by the same ideals as the United States, as is evident from the Preamble to its Constitution:"

and I am proud of it and unfortunately, the actions of the hindutva crowd is to drag India closer to Pakistan. Ambedkar, who was behind the constitution is detested by most of the Hindutva crowd.

hindutva crowd is to drag India closer to Pakistan.

Please tell me how? What are your sources?

Ambedkar, who was behind the constitution is detested by most of the Hindutva crowd.

What? Please tell me how? What are your sources?

and I am proud of it and unfortunately

Can you share that Rajiv's essay with 100 people in Pakistan and ask them to respond to a poll with options 'Agree' and 'Disagree'. I am curious to know how they will respond.

"Can you share that Rajiv's essay with 100 people ..."

Dude, am getting tired of your antic.

Dude, am getting tired of your antic.

antic? Are you not serious about progress? Don't you want a civilized pakistan? Don't you want love your country?

am getting tired

Peace takes hard work, it doesn't come esay.
I thought you were serious, because that essay will make you THINK!

"Please tell me how? What are your sources?"

The culture of assimilation as the islamic regimes demand is what Hindutva crowd wants in India too. If hindus don't want to kill cows that is ok, but i love my beef. Heard of a concept called 'Hindurashtra'? Know why Gandhi was killed? Who Sawarkar was? Why he admired Nazis? These are fractured memories from my past reading.

Google is your friend. If you can't still find it, send me an email, i will find the material for you. As for Ambedkar, read 'Worshipping false gods' by Arun Shourie.

50 · Kiran P said

and I am proud of it and unfortunately

Can you share that Rajiv's essay with 100 people in Pakistan and ask them to respond to a poll with options 'Agree' and 'Disagree'. I am curious to know how they will respond.

I do tend to agree with Rajiv Malhotra about a lot of things and all but you know how they say "Beware the man of only one book?"

"Don't you want love your country?"

there you go, one with a muslim name, you should be from pakistan - speaks volumes about your presumption.

if you had your way, we would have had a hindu republic. Everything you detest about Pakistan and the islamic regimes is what is espoused by your party in India - so you know how the rest of the world perceives you.

culture of assimilation

Absolutely. You can't have loyalties for Pakistan and indulge in terrorism against the very country you live in: SIMI and milion terror modules in the making. You can have the beef. Gandhi's killing was necessary I guess after his loyalties switched to pakistan in the name of peace, he imposed his personal ideology over national security. Nation comes first and then father of the nation I should say. Anyway that's what Godse thought. I love Gandhi but not at at cost of nation. I don't care much about Savarkar. See unlike pakistan Hindus are thinkers, they are a rational bunch and will do what's right for their nation. We don't derive hate from our scriptures. Instead reasoning and enquiry are the tenets. In fact there's no single entity called Hindutva. There are several schools of thought. It's your choice to believe in the definition you want to believe in. To be frank if Islamic terrorism and Evangelical Terrorism leave India even your definition of Hindutva whatever that is will cease to exist. If you want to term the reactionary forces countering these two forms of Terrorism as Hindutva then all Indian citizens with allegiance to India first ( not Vatican, not Mecca ) like me can be called Hindutva folks. Ambedkar: I have no problem. Such minor issues will not gain traction.

My suggestion to you is this. For your own good, for pakistani good you should encourage more introspection among your people so that peace can prevail. Having imaginary enemies to justify your fears and terrors is no way to go forward.

Google is your friend. If you can't still find it, send me an email, i will find the material for you. As for Ambedkar, read 'Worshipping false gods' by Arun Shourie.

Of course this is me being a Monday morning quarterback. Who knew what the pressures were like back then? At the end we can conclude that maybe Ambedkar was a man for his time and his time is now past?

The culture of assimilation as the islamic regimes demand is what Hindutva crowd wants in India too. If hindus don't want to kill cows that is ok, but i love my beef. Heard of a concept called 'Hindurashtra'? Know why Gandhi was killed? Who Sawarkar was? Why he admired Nazis? These are fractured memories from my past reading.

Demonizing and marginalizing them, and worse yet assuming that anyone who shows any religious or national pride must automatically endorse every one of their excesses, only serves to radicalize the movement and polarize the political debate.

See unlike pakistan Hindus are thinkers, they are a rational bunch and will do what's right for their nation.

For your own good, for pakistani good you should encourage more introspection among your people so that peace can prevail. Having imaginary enemies to justify your fears and terrors is no way to go forward.

Having imaginary enemies to justify your fears and terrors is no way to go forward.

I said the above. I should have added this after that: I can understand you get all that hate filled material going through Islamicised Pakistan Education system. So it's not easy to undo the brainwashing. But nothing is impossible if you put your heart into it. May be you can start a web site countering all that nonsence and ask pakistanis to login after school hours to read your corrected material. Somewhere a start has to be made. I can help if needed.

NV,

Did you really just say that?

OK, let me qualify that by saying "relatively speaking"

You realize that being named Najeeb doesn't automatically make him Pakistani right

We got introduced just 3 days back on SM. See, in all my talks online I haven't been able to distinguish between Indian and Pakistani muslims. Apologies if my assumption is wrong.

Kiran.P doesn't need any response, I assume. I should have read the bold letters - "Please don't feed the trolls".

Wherever there is Kiran.P, there is NV I suppose :) there is no harm there. I do understand the broad brush I am using when I talk about Hindutva, but the discussion is at that level. There are no distinctions that youa re making among the islamists groups either. All I am trying to point out is that there are crazy elements in most countries and in India that award goes to the Hindutva(BJP/VHP/BajrangDal/RSS crowd) and it is funny for me to see you guys bashing the right wingers across the border. This is a universal solidarity between the left across the world, but that will never happen for the right wingers - if you move to Iran, you are going to be a left winger there, much like many of you are democrats here. Anyways, i will never see eye to eye with you guys, so this is a waste of public space. will sign off now.

OK, let me qualify that by saying "relatively speaking"

If you answered "Adding relatively to a really offensive statement doesn't make it any less offensive" you win no-prize.

I say this with no malice directed at you, but that was kind of an arrogant thing to say and I think you should apologize, because for some odd reason people tend to let their feelings get hurt over the internet.

62 · najeeb said

This is a universal solidarity between the left across the world, but that will never happen for the right wingers

And Hooray for that!

57 · Kiran P said

See unlike pakistan Hindus are thinkers, they are a rational bunch and will do what's right for their nation

57 · Kiran P said

Gandhi's killing was necessary I guess after his loyalties switched to pakistan in the name of peace, he imposed his personal ideology over national security

61 · Kiran P said

See, in all my talks online I haven't been able to distinguish between Indian and Pakistani muslims

Awww, now I feel sorry about my lack of "compassion" for this sweetie... i am glad that people's sympathies are in the right place.

62 · najeeb said

but that will never happen for the right wingers

and it's a real pity given the level of similarity in their value systems. unfortunately "the inability to appreciate the viewpoint of the other" doesn't seem conducive to a unity theme.

62 · najeeb said

nd in India that award goes to the Hindutva(BJP/VHP/BajrangDal/RSS crowd)

nooo!!!! hindutva is GOOD. as long as everybody in india is hindu, there will be no problems! that is so different from pakistan which wants everybody to be muslim! why is that so hard to understand?

61 · Kiran P said

OK, let me qualify that by saying "relatively speaking"

relatively speaking, inbreeding produces tards.

62 · najeeb said

I do understand the broad brush I am using when I talk about Hindutva, but the discussion is at that level. There are no distinctions that youa re making among the islamists groups either.

but.. but.. islamists do not love their own countries unabashedly and all of them endorse all the excesses committed by any one of them. that is exactly why there is no need to be subtle about islamists! we all know how the islamic organizations do not engage in any disaster relief, be it in kashmir, or lebanon, or palestine. demonizing and marginalizing them, and better yet, assume that anyone who shows any religious or national pride is the only appropriate response to these people.

najeeb said

This is a universal solidarity between the left across the world

Yes. Amartya Sen and Chomsky, Mao and Stalin- All them Reds are the same, innit?

stand up said

62 · najeeb said

but that will never happen for the right wingers

and it's a real pity given the level of similarity in their value systems. unfortunately "the inability to appreciate the viewpoint of the other" doesn't seem conducive to a unity theme.

Aah! the beauty of dividing the world into neat little wings. Angels and Demons. Devas and Asuras. Laurel and Hardy.

I didn't see them protesting after the Mumbai attacks.
As far as i am concerend the U.S.A. should keep on bombing taliban/al-qaeda targets in Pakistan. If some civilians get killed than so be it.

72 · Han said

As far as i am concerend the U.S.A. should keep on bombing taliban/al-qaeda targets in Pakistan. If some civilians get killed than so be it.

I hate to quote myself (not really) but I wrote a play in 2002 called "Eat the Kitsch, or How the Left Was Won" and I'm going to share one line (paraphrased for context) with you:

We split the world into Us vs. Them and denied all those THEMS the chance to join in our liberation and community, and we denied OURSELVES whatever wisdom THEY might have had...But worst of all, since we never really got to know "them," we couldn't tell when we BECAME them...

If you replaced "Taliban/Al-Qaeda" with "American/infidel," comment #72 could have come straight from Osama bin Laden's mouth.

Kiran.P doesn't need any response, I assume.

You can assume that. And you can also assume that drones will keep hitting Pakistan.

If you answered "Adding relatively to a really offensive statement doesn't make it any less offensive" you win no-prize.

Let me clarify. When I said "See unlike pakistan Hindus are thinkers, they are a rational bunch and will do what's right for their nation" and added "relatively speaking" what I meant was Hindus ( i.e broad definition of Hindu not Eurocentric construct ) will make sure the ideology of radical elements within them will not get traction in the direction or polity of the nation. As they say -1 is not -1,000,000 they are both negative, but the degree of negativity varies by a million. That's what I meant when I say "relatively speaking". We have a good countering force within oursleves unlike Pakistan which has gone from bad to worse where the miliatary and Islamist parties have a common ideology of "war of thousand cuts" against India. This was even espoused by so called democratic leader of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto. Zia or Bhutto they are all the same.

Parsing my statements to highlight simple errors won't stop drones hitting Pakistan. If Obama is also approving this then there must be stronger reason compared to collateral damage that you are complaining about. Though I don't like this drone business sometimes war is the only way to everlasting peace especially if the enemy is so two timing as Pakistan is.

73 · Harbeer said

72 · Han said

As far as i am concerend the U.S.A. should keep on bombing taliban/al-qaeda targets in Pakistan. If some civilians get killed than so be it.

I hate to quote myself (not really) but I wrote a play in 2002 called "Eat the Kitsch, or How the Left Was Won" and I'm going to share one line (paraphrased for context) with you:

We split the world into Us vs. Them and denied all those THEMS the chance to join in our liberation and community, and we denied OURSELVES whatever wisdom THEY might have had...But worst of all, since we never really got to know "them," we couldn't tell when we BECAME them...

If you replaced "Taliban/Al-Qaeda" with "American/infidel," comment #72 could have come straight from Osama bin Laden's mouth.

I've got one for you from Mill:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

inbreeding produces tards.

tards can't sit down. y, inbreeding is always in the news in west.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

Excellent. That was how Gandhi thought. That's where Gandhi diverged from Gita!

This is a universal solidarity between the left across the world

Wrong. Indian leftists are a special breed. Mostly they are communists. And in Kerala and West Bengal they are almost terrorists.

"If you replaced "Taliban/Al-Qaeda" with "American/infidel," comment #72 could have come straight from Osama bin Laden's mouth."

@ Harbeer # 73,

I don't think you know what your talking about. But than again that seems to be the case for more lefties.
You see the U.S.A. is NOT dropping bombs with the intend of killing as much civilians as possible. Their MAIN TARGETS are Taliban/al-qaeda operatives. Those Taliban/al qaeda operatives like to hide and take shelter among the civilian population, so if the U.S. strikes at those operatives than civilians will also be killed. That is called collateral damage. The difference with the Taliban/Al Qaeda is that the Taliban/Al Qaeda kill civilians because killing as much 'infidel' civilians as possible is their intend. 'ínfidel'Civilians are among their targets.
So Harbeer equating the U.S.A airstrikes with the Taliban/Al qaeda suicide bombers/ terrorist attacks is not only WRONG it is also IDIOTIC. But than again you lefties just love to equate things that can't be equated.
Bye bye Harbeer good luck with finding a properly working brain.

80 · Han said

That is called collateral damage.

Collateral damage seems fine with you until the day it is your mother/brother/best friend lying dead in the streets for having bad luck. Then, I'm sure it will be an outrage.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

Excellent. That was how Gandhi thought. That's where Gandhi diverged from Gita!

That is unfortunately not how Gandhi thought. That is where he diverged from the Gita. Gandhi was a fundamentalist regarding non-violence. The Gita says you need to fight for your dharma.

At times, I feel, the hindu fundamentalists whom i have come across in India (that was 10 years ago) are not as staunch as the ones I come across in this forum. Involvement in Gandhi's killing is something they do not like to discuss generally, let alone condone it and somehow create a notion that Gandhi was at fault; the notion that Gandhi went against Gita and thus deserve punishment seems very close to the view of muslim fundamentalists like Taliban. Every word that comes out of certain people in this forum further emphasizes my own view that all they are trying to do is to drag India closer to failed theocracies like Pakistan, and i wonder, in the course of time, whether the American hindu fundies have gotten worse than the home grown ones. May be detached from the reality of what happens in everyday India, they don't realize the threat of culture or loss of identity aren't the biggest issues in contemporary India?

"Collateral damage seems fine with you until the day it is your mother/brother/best friend lying dead in the streets for having bad luck. Then, I'm sure it will be an outrage."

I agree. Often times, well ahead, we know what the collateral damage is going to be.

83 · najeeb said

May be detached from the reality of what happens in everyday India, they don't realize the threat of culture or loss of identity aren't the biggest issues in contemporary India?

it is much more convenient to sponsor loonies remotely while taking advantage of the same values that you destroy.

najeeb, i think you are being too harsh on kiran. he's not playing with a full deck, and consequently, at least he's more honest than the rest.

Involvement in Gandhi's killing is something they do not like to discuss generally, let alone condone it and somehow create a notion that Gandhi was at fault; the notion that Gandhi went against Gita and thus deserve punishment seems very close to the view of muslim fundamentalists like Taliban.

Yes, I was pretty shocked when I read what Divya and Kiran P. wrote here. I don't agree with this at all.

May be detached from the reality of what happens in everyday India, they don't realize the threat of culture or loss of identity aren't the biggest issues in contemporary India?

That may not be true, since so much of political identity and divying of resources to give to citizens is dependent on religion, caste, blah...In the US we still deal with racial political identities (I was so annoyed how some African Americans were insinuating that I was racist b/c I supported Hilary in the primaries) but we are much, much a modern society here - that is, our identity comes from being an American citizen.

I want that for India too ....when caste/religious identities melt into an identity that comes from the Indian state, and the cross cutting socioeconomic factors that effect all Indians. I know this is there in India as well, but the more time we are a nation and I think the wealthier we get, this may become stronger. I don't think India will be dragged into the failed theocracies...I just don't.

Thanks for your thoughts Najeeb.

Yes, I was pretty shocked when I read what Divya and Kiran P. wrote here. I don't agree with this at all.

Good grief. You think i think that Gandhi deserves punishment for going against the Gita? That's ridiculous. But that does not stop me from believing that fundamentalism of any kind is wrong, leads to unfortunate consequences, and in Gandhi's case exacerbated many of the problems he was trying to solve. Just because Gandhi was a fundamentalist for non-violence does not make fundamentalism okay.

I don't know why it was decided that Jamaat-e-Islami represents Pakistan. That's like choosing a right-wing party in the US and saying that it represents the views of all Americans. There is no one monolithic Pakistani ideology. There are people who are pro-Obama and people who disagree with his policies. The picture that Vinod chose to highlight represents Pakistan just as much (but not any more) than the picture that Anna chose to highlight. One can always find evidence that supports whatever viewpoint one personally espouses. That said, I don't think anyone in Pakistan supports the drone attacks (though many probably feel that they are inevitable). And this is not simply a Pakistani concern, as Najeeb stated above, anyone who supports justice would be against the idea of people in the tribal areas being killed simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Najeeb - "At times, I feel, the hindu fundamentalists whom i have come across in India (that was 10 years ago) are not as staunch as the ones I come across in this forum."

The day there is a forum, even on the web, where South Asian Muslims can gather and freely [using their real name if they so choose] utter opinions like, "The Quran was probably penned by several human beings over a couple of centuries", without being threatened with death and rape, you can criticize other forums like Sepia.
In my experience, Sepia offers space for all sort of thought, as long as expressed with respect. Indeed, here on Sepia, I have witnessed a preponderance of Leftist and Centrist opinion, with only a sprinkling of Right. Just the way I like it.
And to be honest, until we Muslims create similar forums, we will be unable to progress.

Amongst President Obama's first executive orders was authorizing the bombing of a suspected Al Qaeda safe house in Waziristan, Pakistan. The bombs killed Seventeen Pakistani citizens and Four Arabs.
In today's Washington Post, the Pakistani Prime Minister, Asif Ali Zardari, in an op-ed piece begged President Obama and the American Congress for billions in aid.
Now, what sort of a "Sovereign Nation", which gave the Muslims their first nuclear bomb, no less, begs the very man who just authorized the killing of seventeen of their citizens for a handout. What happened to all that, "we will eat grass if need be, but we will make the nuclear bomb" resolve..

Zainab,
If you haven't already, check out Indian Muslims Blog and Iranian (not exactly SA or Muslim, but their motto Nothing is sacred says it all). I am sure there are more.

"..you can criticize other forums like Sepia."

Zainab, I don't think I criticized Sepia at all in my comment. I like SM, i link to it in my blog and have followed it for several years now - i think it is an open forum and entertains views from all different angles just like you said. my comments were purely aimed at the commentators, not the forum.

91 · najeeb said

my comments were purely aimed at the commentators

I was just discussing with some others yesterday as to whether the Hindu fundamentalists are actually becoming more open, getting larger, or if I just happen to be running into them more often this days...

In my past couple years in India I have heard some really shocking racist and/or communalist things uttered openly in public spaces. I suppose, in the U.S. racists and such feel a bit scared (I guess scared??) to say such things openly... I don't know if it just happens in the particular settings I was in at the time, or if such people really DO feel perfectly OK voicing these opinions out in the open...

Has anyone read anything regarding this lately? How is the climate changing for fundies in India?