Mariachi dancers?

whose youngest child is named “Slade Ryan” (no joke).

A FOB question: why is the name Slade always brought up when folks are trying to explain Jindal's degree of assimilation. What is the context sorrounding that name? Wikipedia left me none the wiser on this.

Since the name "Bobby" leads to heated debates, I think he should refer to him as

"He Whose name we dare not speak"

Just like Jesus during the Holidays.

And everything is politics. If this country voted for Lil Wayne for President then the Republicans would nominate "The Ying Yang Twins" as Chair of the RNC.

Looks like the republicans have succumbed to the herd mentality. They are imitating the democrats by anointing these two colored guys, Jindal and Steele, as their leaders.

A similar thing happened after Indira Gandhi became the first female Prime Minister of India. Its neighbors Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka promptly elected their own female Prime Ministers/Presidents.

2 · IBCD said

A FOB question: why is the name Slade always brought up when folks are trying to explain Jindal's degree of assimilation. What is the context sorrounding that name? Wikipedia left me none the wiser on this.

It's not a "typical" American name, like say Robert, Michael, Brad, etc., but more of a hardcore good-ol', Bubba-type name. It's kind of up there with "Cletus" in its redneck-itude. Let's put it this way, when I think of person named "Slade" that last thing my mind conjures up is a little brown boy who could be my own nephew.

4 · Go Jindal said

A similar thing happened after Indira Gandhi became the first female Prime Minister of India. Its neighbors Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka promptly elected their own female Prime Ministers/Presidents.

Ms. Sirimavo Bandaranaike is doing sommersaults in her grave.

A similar thing happened after Indira Gandhi became the first female Prime Minister of India. Its neighbors Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka promptly elected their own female Prime Ministers/Presidents.

Sri Lanka elected Sirimavo Bandaranaike 6 years before Indira Gandhi was elected to power.

7 · Vanya said

Sri Lanka elected Sirimavo Bandaranaike 6 years before Indira Gandhi was elected to power.

Thanks. I stand corrected. So it is Sri Lanka that was the trail blazer in the region and India, Pakistan and Bangladesh who were the imitators.

No offense, but this post seems a little confused. You break out with the lede:

This ain’t yo daddy’s GOP no more.

But then we find out:

Nativists remain both a significant constituency within the party and a significant source of amusement for those of us outside of it

and

More importantly, [Jindal]’s exactly what the rest of the party is looking for: a governor, a social and fiscal conservative, a staunch Christian, and somebody who claims to stand for increased transparency (except for his office, which is exempt).

and

At this point, they’re willing to try something new, especially if it’s old wine in a new bottle.

A provocative lede is fine and good, but one that completely contradicts the substance of the post probably falls under the category of bad craftsmanship. Lede aside, however, I think you are on to something about how UNREMARKABLE the potential candidacy of Jindal is, symbolic or otherwise.

8 · Go Jindal said

Thanks. I stand corrected. So it is Sri Lanka that was the trail blazer in the region and India, Pakistan and Bangladesh who were the imitators.

Or maybe, just maybe, these independent, sovereign nations have their own reasons and considerations for electing their female leaders that are not dependent on what neighboring countries do.

This national platform might some day be pointed to in the same manner that many point to Obama's 2004 appearance at the DNC...as the future candidate's coming out party. That being said, any speculation of Jindal running in 2012 is somewhat pointless. It will all come down to what Obama's poll numbers show in Feb 2010. If he is above 50% then Jindal will probably not run. He would be stupid to blow his wad at the age of 39. Better to wait until 2016 with a wide open field and a ton out outside the beltway cred. The other interesting news is that while Jindal and Romney (another future Republican candidate for President) came out very vocally against the stimulus package, Crist of Florida (yet another hopeful) came out vocally for it, even appearing with Obama. That essentially means that while Jindal and Romney have to hope Obama fails and the nation suffers, Crist comes out looking pretty good either way. Jindal and Romney chose a short term tactic whereas Crist chose the long-term strategy. A good strategy usually wins over short-term tactics.

11 · Wild Elephant said

Crist comes out looking pretty good

oh, i don't think the nation's ready for someone who's out.

Was 2008 the last year that contenders for the top RNC spot will send out CDs of such chart topping hits as “Barack the Magic Negro,”

For the record, the Obama as "magic negro" meme originated in the LATimes, by a progressive writer who's upset Obama isn't progressive enough. ergo the racial smear.

It's not a "typical" American name, like say Robert, Michael, Brad, etc., but more of a hardcore good-ol', Bubba-type name. It's kind of up there with "Cletus" in its redneck-itude. Let's put it this way, when I think of person named "Slade" that last thing my mind conjures up is a little brown boy who could be my own nephew.

well, he was raised in louisiana. what kind of name do you expect him to have?

i'd really like to know what makes one an assimilationist or not. just curious. i'm not a big fan of bobby because he's not one of my kind; he's a socially conservative southerner, and people know what i think of those who pander to creationists. i'm a socially liberal westerner. no way in hell i'd give my son a name like "slade ryan," has a meathead connotation to me, no idea why, probably my regional/class prejudices. but what kind of name should someone like me give my kids which wouldn't indicate assimilation? as an atheist who doesn't identify as muslim it would seem kind of weird for me to give a son a name like 'mohammed.' i'm just not a fan of mohammed to be honest. i'm a brown dude, so why should i give my kid a turko-persian name like a lot of muslims do? (though i'm a fan of my surname cuz of star trek ii) but i don't have hindus in my family (at last not for a minimum of 3 generations), so would a "desi name" like rama be appropriate? as it happens, my fiance & i have discussed it and we prefer what you might term traditional "anglo" names, though not of the generic kind (e.g., david, joshua, etc.). i'm a greco-roman history buff, so that should give one a clue, classical roots in preference to hebraic or germanic.

and what if my fiance and i adopt a black kid? we've talked about about adopting, and if we did it would be cool if the kid was a different race from both of us (brown & white) since that way people wouldn't tag one of us as their "real" parent compared to the other. would they be desi/brown, or not? (there's a surplus of blacks in the american adoption system, and since we're an interracial couple we aren't too hung up about the kids "looking like the parents")

these are weird questions. to a great extent in a place like india (or bangladesh or pakistan, etc.) they're not an issue. you're identity is non-negotiable in a way that's not true in the USA. there's a particular core set of identities which defines you, by religion, region, caste, locality, etc. (and i am one who thinks in a substantive way indian culture is hindu, no matter the religion, just like western culture is christian, no matter the religion). the united states is different. 20-40% of american born browns are marrying non-browns. large minorities are converting to christianity of a non-indian variety. many are becoming totally irreligious. people are negotiating their own cultural identities in a fluid environment, picking up punjabi/hindi words and integrating it into their slang if they're south indian, learning what south indian food is like if they're north indian, hanging out with white hare krishnas and reconceptualizing what hindu can be, becoming a follower of krishnamurti despite coming from a shia pakistani background (this last example is based on a real person, in case you think it's a hypothetical).

i don't have much in common with bobby in terms of how i've come to identified myself as an american. but, i would assert

1) in many cultural ways brown kidz who didn't take the bobby route have more in common culturally with bobby than they do with their "ancestral cultures."

2) there's a big spectrum of what brown is. it's being constructed right here, right now, but people who are generating their own perceptions and boundaries. i think it's just an empirical reality that a north indian hindu is probably the "core" brown identity because of numbers. but people go in a lot of different directions and have a lot of combinations.

3) there are grounds to criticize bobby jindal. but put me in the category of those uneasy the implications that he's obviously a sellout, as this sellout wonders if one day we'll be outside the magic circle of brownitutde.

but what kind of name should someone like me give my kids which wouldn't indicate assimilation?

As for names, there are a lot of pretty cool Arabic names for kids. My brother actually gave both his son and his daughter Arabic names. While he's irreligious his wife is actually a rather traditionalist Hindu so that really surprised me.

If you want a Greco-Roman name for your kid though you really should go all out. Latin names have a certain power to them. You should name your kid Scipio Africanus!

Honestly I think the assimilationist charge on Jindal is based primarily on his being a Republican fundamentalist.

what does being a 'republican fundamentalist' has to do not do with being desi? IOW, bobby's politics are not mine (though i am to the Right of most people here), and it is totally kool to hate on someone for their politics. american as apple pie. but why the charges of being a sellout? what is ineluctability brown that he has contravened? is it is the conjunction of a whole set of parameters? or is it something specific like that he converted to christianity and then dissed hindus to other christians?

Scipio Africanus!

i'll let the kid get his own agnomen ;-) as for scipio, there are issues re: pronunciation of that name...i don't want a son with a nickname "skippy" :-) kato kaelin also ruined cato.

well, he was raised in louisiana. what kind of name do you expect him to have?

i'd really like to know what makes one an assimilationist or not. just curious.

The issue is more that he was not born Bobby, and that he took on the name as a way to assimilate. That DOES reflect his discomfort with being in his skin and on his rather desperate need to fit into (white) culture (The Brady Bunch being the rather iconic representation of idyllic White America). If he had been born a Bobby or had taken on that name because of his conversion, that would be a different matter. The name change, whatever the real reason may be, implies a level of self-hatred, which, however common among some immigrant minorities, is not something that is respected. That is, one can assimilate while maintaining one's heritage (ones name usually being a signifier). Rejecting one so wholeheartedly while embracing another just seems crass.

This is probably why so many people keep bringing up his name. It is the narrative that surrounds it that brings up too many echoes (legitimately or not) of minority shame within majority culture.

The fundamentalist bit there wasn't attached to the Republican bit. I should have used a comma. He's not just Christian, he's one of the theocratic dominionist ones (which is where the "Republican" comes in.)

I don't personally know enough about Jindal's views on India or Indian culture to determine whether he's a sell-out or not so if I want to dis him I generally stick to terms like "nutjob" or "jackass." But whether he's Indian or not would depend on whether he has any pride in India or its culture. Dinesh D'Souza, for example, is a total sell-out because he goes out of his way to throw insults at Indians from an outsiders' perspective.

This is probably why so many people keep bringing up his name. It is the narrative that surrounds it that brings up too many echoes (legitimately or not) of minority shame within majority culture.

this is a plausible enough narrative. my point is that you don't really know, you're connecting the dots. i think perhaps we might take an "innocent-until-proven-guilty" position. that's why i'm suspicious of the term "self-hatred." perhaps this is who bobby jindal really is? as for the points about shame, etc., those are real, and don't reflect well on someone's character. but, again, whole nations change their identities, religions, languages, etc. perhaps one can point to bobby and say "what a loser," but this sort of individual act of transformation is pretty common, and it's how all of us got our "heritage."

The fundamentalist bit there wasn't attached to the Republican bit. I should have used a comma. He's not just Christian, he's one of the theocratic dominionist ones (which is where the "Republican" comes in.)

well, bobby has pandered to creationists, so i'm not going to pushback on this too much. but, i would want a clarification of the 'dominionist' appellation. i've seen it thrown at lots of right-wing social conservative catholics, but from what i know technically it refers to a particular perspective among calvinists. has 'dominionist' just come to mean more generally those who imbue their politics with a religious perspective which his exclusionary or anti-pluralist?

1. I brought up his name because I think it makes him more acceptable to the assimilationists. One of their arguments is that they don't like foreign names, and that everybody ought to have "American" names. Hopefully they can pronounce Bobby just fine. (And Jindal rhymes with jingle, so they should be fine with his last name too)

2. He is free to name his kids whatever he wants, but it does signify something
If his son had been named Moishe Teitelbaum Jindal, what would you think?
If his daughter had been named LaQuisha Jindal, what would you think?
If his son had been named Dolf Wotan Jindal and his daughter Virginia Dare Jindal, what would you think?

He's a brown Catholic. Slade Ryan (to my ears) sounds very waspy, that is, very white, very angle an very protestant. It sounds as deliberate as any of the names I've listed above.

More after I grab a bite to eat.

I understand "Dominionist" to mean a worldview which says Christianity is the one true religion, governments should explicitly govern from a "Christian" worldview, and Christians alone should run the show reducing all others (including people who aren't "Christian" enough) should be relegated to second class status.

Basically, it's like Iran with a Bible in your hand and no beard on your chin.

A provocative lede is fine and good, but one that completely contradicts the substance of the post probably falls under the category of bad craftsmanship.

Buster, I'm confused by your feedback. If I started a post by saying what a big change Jackie Robinson represented and then went on to talk about how he was the ideal man to desegregate baseball, given how he exemplified the traditional virtues of sportsmanship and was an exceptional athlete, would you say that my lede had contradicted the substance of my post?

The ones who hate Jindal's politics are pulling at straws for having changed his name to bobby when he was in Kindergarden. If I was named Piyush...I would change my name too. It has more to do with other kindergardners going Pee yuuu than anything else. I doubt he was thinking political advantage in choosing Bobby. I am sure his wife had a say in naming their kid Slade. Slade sounds like a 'cool' ladies man name rather than any political connotations to it.

If his kids name choice is the burning issue in his ability to be a good governor...than I say he is doing pretty well.

I meant to say those criticizing Jindal....Its late.

If his son had been named Moishe Teitelbaum Jindal, what would you think?
If his daughter had been named LaQuisha Jindal, what would you think?

fair enough point. laqisha. lol.

He's a brown Catholic. Slade Ryan (to my ears) sounds very waspy, that is, very white, very angle an very protestant. It sounds as deliberate as any of the names I've listed above.

american white cultures are more diverse than this, you're stereotypes aren't too fine-grained. the catholics in louisana are cajun, which is way diff. than northern catholics. here's a baby name map. a new england WASP would not have a name like 'slade.' it's a nouveau name and lacks class. things are different in the south, and the southern upper class has that weird habit of giving kids last names as first (e.g., jackson). it turns out that slade is a welsh surname, but i suspect it is a normal name in his social circles. see this article on politics & baby names.

btw, bobby didn't take a big step toward assimilation: marry a white chick (which around 1/3 of american brown brownz do).

Razib --

Slade is a rare first name, but a common last name with English origins. However, this habit of using family names as first names is one which is WASPy, and since the last name is WASPy as well, it signifies Waspitude.

' it's a nouveau name and lacks class.

let me clarify here: i was once in louisiana, and a lot of upper middle class people had names i thought were "trashy" (that is, those are the sort of names that working and lower class people had where i lived). so there are regional differences here.

thinking about it further....

assimilationist: yeah, a good case
self-hating: not convinced

btw, bobby didn't take a big step toward assimilation: marry a white chick (which around 1/3 of american brown brownz do).

Although growing up in the South myself, I can attest that I feel like my race is a much bigger factor there dating-wise than it is for me in New England now. And in those cases where race wasn't a deal religion pretty much made it a deal-breaker.

I wont claim he's self-hating, I wouldn't have the evidence to substantiate such a claim. He has definitely chosen to transform himself, and he's consistently chosen to transform himself in a direction consistent with assimilation.

Far more important than names is how Jindal has behaved w.r.t. desis, such as when the two Indian students at LSU were murdered. Also, as far as I can tell, unlike Obama who showcased his immigrant family heritage, Jindal seems to shy away from that topic. So the impression generated is one of a politician who wants to emphasize the American side of the hyphenated identity, and hide the brown side of it.

Self-hating is just one possible explanation for why he might choose that path. I can't tell if it's right explanation because I don't know what's motivating him.

It's unfortunate enough that a bunch of omniscient critics love to bash this man for an all-consuming self-hatred which they have uncannily, expertly diagnosed, but I find it especially distasteful that now, we're suddenly the Judiciary branch in charge of who gets to name their kid what-- and to what degree we may then criticize them for being "too assimilated".

Sad. The whole obsession with male Jindal names is sad. And pathetic. Slade is a popular southern name, AFAIK. What if-- hear me out here-- what if...Bobby and Supriya just like the name?

Have you collapsed from shock at that possibility?

That maybe they didn't use focus groups or engage in pitiable insecurity about what a few thousand bitter, irrelevant brown people would think of them, when going about their own business and naming THEIR child? I met a little brown baby named Jayden. How about you cackle about that, anonymously, on the interweb? Or is Jayden all good because his Dad is NOT a "sell-out" whose lifestyle and decisions conjure the discomfort about being "different" in which you marinated, back in the third grade?

Apparently, it's a lot more labor-intensive (and far less fun) to come up with a coherent comment about how disappointing it is that a Rhodes Scholar claims to believe in Creationism, so why not default to this lazy bullshit?

Actually, I'd argue that marrying a Brown girl would ingratiate him to the traditionalist Whites moreso than "stealing our White wimmin" would. Well maybe it wouldn't ingratiate him, but it would certainly avoid pissing them off.

good point.

So the impression generated is one of a politician who wants to emphasize the American side of the hyphenated identity, and hide the brown side of it.

i think deemphasized is fine, but "hide" seems too strong of a word. he can't hide it. there's a difference between barack obama and bobby jindal: barack obama looks "american." that is, he looks black. even the name isn't necessarily a bar since black americans sometimes give their kids african names or change their last names to african or islamic ones.

FWIW, when i was in louisiana (baton rouge) years ago it was kind of strange because sometimes i think i confused people because they dichotomize life into black an white.

I understand "Dominionist" to mean a worldview which says Christianity is the one true religion, governments should explicitly govern from a "Christian" worldview, and Christians alone should run the show reducing all others (including people who aren't "Christian" enough) should be relegated to second class status.

yeah, this is all true. but it came out of neo-calvinism in the USA. it seems to me that the term 'dominionist' has lost the narrow sectarian connotation, but perhaps it is important to remember that the seminal thinkers in the movement are neo-calvinists who don't take kindly to roman catholics. roman catholics don't have any equivalent theology in the mainstream of the church that i know, they made peace with democratic liberalism in the 1960s with vatican ii (though the catholic church had views closer to dominionism before then). this is only relevant because bobby is a roman catholic so i can't be help wince at the aspersion 'dominionist' when the original dominionists considered the papacy the whore of babylon and stuff.

Who cares if Jindal's first name is Bobby or Bouba? Who cares if he looks like us, talks like us or from our village?

Many of his positions are unpalatable (to me) and that's what eventually matters, doesn't it?

Many of his positions are unpalatable (to me) and that's what eventually matters, doesn't it?

amen? :-)

btw, for the record:
“Diversity can be good in moderation — if what is being brought in is desirable. Most Americans don’t mind a little ethnic food, some Asian math whizzes, or a few Mariachi dancers — as long as these trends do not overwhelm the dominant culture.”

the quote is from a "nativist" who has a korean mother.

The whole obsession with male Jindal names is sad. And pathetic. Slade is a popular southern name, AFAIK. What if-- hear me out here-- what if...Bobby and Supriya just like the name? Have you collapsed from shock at that possibility?

Anna, you and I are simply going to disagree on this.

I can't find the 2000 census first name list, but Slade as a first name is so rare that it doesn't even show up in the frequency tabulations in 1990.

It is a common British last name though, so it's as if he had named his son "Wellington." Now he and his wife can name their son whatever they want, but as with Moishe and LaQuisha, I'm not going to pretend that there's no significance to their choice. Even if they chose Slade purely because they liked the sound of it, it still tells us something.

(FWIW, Moises is ranked around 600 amongst American male first names (there is no listing for the nickname Moishe) and there is no listing for LaQuisha, but there is a LaQuanda at around ranking 3100 or so)

That said, I restricted my reference to names to a single line in this post, and even then used it just to illustrate the fact that Jindal would be acceptable to nativists rather making any point about what it revealed about his "true nature."

It is a common British last name though, so it's as if he had named his son "Wellington."

lol. does he want his son to be assumed to be gay?

...not that there's anything wrong with it!

It is a common British last name though, so it's as if he had named his son "Wellington." Now he and his wife can name their son whatever they want, but as with Moishe and LaQuisha, I'm not going to pretend that there's no significance to their choice.

no, this is kind of off topic, but the analogy with wellington doesn't work right. wellington is a classic "foppish" first name (it was even the first name of the tragic doctor in dune). the kind of effete upper class name that people give their kids to suggest status, or perhaps a family name. slade is as you note really obscure. moishe and laquisha are not obscure. if a jewish family gives their daughter the name rahel instead of rachel, or some the name moishe instead of moses, that tells you something as to their attitude toward assimilation with the gentile world (since many hebrew names have common 'american' equivalents). similarly, the name laquisha or tyrone are strongly black coded names. slade is just a generic white name, kind of meatheadish sounding. the "signal" is a lot weaker than the other names you've offered. anna's hypothesis that they just "liked the sound" seems to hold for more obscure first names, or newish rare names, than it does "classic" names.

Wellington is a common last name which is rare as a first name, it also doesn't show up in the frequency charts of male first names in 1990.

The comparisons to Wellington, Moises and LaQuanda were intended to make a different point - the fact that some first names are highly coded by community and so the use of the name by somebody outside the community is significant.

Slade, like Wellington, is an English last name turned first name. Not a common first name for a young Catholic boy in America. As a good Bayesian, even though Slade is rare, I'd infer from the name that the holder is both white and protestant. The Jindals are neither.

ok, i did a spot check. "slade" looks to be overrepresented in southern states, but not exceedingly so.

methodology, http://www.intelius.com, slade = first name, just select states.

p.s. around the same number of guys named Wellington as Slade in LA according to your methodology.

Annachechi, I don't really understand why the discussion about Bobby Jindal's name and his son's name isn't fair game in this context. No one on this thread is claiming that if he had just named his son Slade and converted to RC, without all the other things that go with it, including the fundamentalism and his downplaying of his immigrant roots, that the name would be a problem. But the truth is that the names are just the most obvious aspect of something that makes me and a lot of people uncomfortable about Bobby Jindal, he wants to so badly be like the people he grew up with, he is pushing away the thing that must surely have been such a huge part of his life, which is his desi identity. Even if he did have a very typical American childhood, there must have been something that was out of the mainstream because of who his parents were, so why this pretense that he is exactly the same as a white kid from Louisiana. He is essentially whitewashing his life, his parents (except when he needs to trot out the hardworking immigrants schtick), and the things that shaped him.

Buster, I'm confused by your feedback. If I started a post by saying what a big change Jackie Robinson represented and then went on to talk about how he was the ideal man to desegregate baseball, given how he exemplified the traditional virtues of sportsmanship and was an exceptional athlete, would you say that my lede had contradicted the substance of my post?

Hmm, you don't understand my feedback, I don't understand your reply. I pointed out that your lede indicates that today's GOP is NOT "yo daddy's" variant anymore. Then your post indicates that, in fact, the GOP has changed very little, if at all. "Old wine in a new bottle." (In this respect, by the way, I think you are spot on.)

Now, imagine that in said hypothetical Jackie Robinson article, your lede was: "The rules of baseball just ain't the same." Then you went on to point out that the game hadn't changed at all--the rules for calling a balk remained the same, the strike zone wasn't narrowed, and you still couldn't play in the big leagues with an aluminum bat. I would then make the same criticism.

At any rate, it was a minor point of craftsmanship, but one that in this instance seemed important to me, as the first sentence in this piece distracts from the larger point made in the rest of the post. Which is an important point, as some people are getting all gassed with Jindal excitement, extremely prematurely and wrong-headedly (the latter being, strictly speaking, just my opinion).

45 · Lea said

He is essentially whitewashing his life, his parents

waht did he do to his parents?

Also, as far as I can tell, unlike Obama who showcased his immigrant family heritage, Jindal seems to shy away from that topic.

He is essentially whitewashing...his parents (except when he needs to trot out the hardworking immigrants schtick),

wait...which one is it?

The name Bobby is one of the most common names among punjabi males born in Canada and the United States.

Diversity can be good in moderation — if what is being brought in is desirable. Most Americans don’t mind a little ethnic food, some Asian math whizzes, or a few Mariachi dancers — as long as these trends do not overwhelm the dominant culture.” [Link]

What is wrong with most Americans wanting keep there dominant culture. They are no different then dominant ethnic groups everywhere else in the world. Who feel the same way about there culture. But for some reason America is held to different standard.

50 · Suki Dillon said

But for some reason America is held to different standard.

We should. We're superior to other cultures.

It's unfortunate enough that a bunch of omniscient critics love to bash this man for an all-consuming self-hatred which they have uncannily, expertly diagnosed, but I find it especially distasteful that now, we're suddenly the Judiciary branch in charge of who gets to name their kid what-- and to what degree we may then criticize them for being "too assimilated".

Best comment I have seen here in a long time.

So I just now got the pun in the title.

Nicely done Ennis.

What is wrong with most Americans wanting keep there dominant culture.

They are no different then dominant ethnic groups everywhere else in the world. Who feel the same way about there culture. But for some reason America is held to different standard.

word.

Seriously. I don't understand why American minorities get so terribly offended at the idea that we are, in fact, minorities.

Guess what there are minorities every where in the world and can you tell me how many better places there are in the world for minorities then in Canada or the United States. And yes I'm aware of all the racism that there is in America, but there is racism everywhere in the world against minorities by the majority group.

As our parents say, white people don't have a culture! This is why Stuff White People Like is so imensely popular - it provides talking points for hashing out the ever shady contours of one, and btw, white people admit that they have no culture themselves - see the recent Atlantic article on the "end" of whites

14 · razib said

i'm a brown dude........the magic circle of brownitutde

Dude, you have a very unhealthy obsession with "brownitude". Are americans mistaking you for something other than desi?

To "ennis": Since you choose to blog with an Irish sounding name instead of your proud original naam from the pind, and rail against Jindal who made similar choices, I have no choice but to conclude that your opinions are derived from acute self-hate. What is that you said about my remark? Nasty, below-the-belt, poorly argued, and besides the point, you say? Alright then, I guess it is vile ad hominem that I engaged in - something I'd better cease and desist if I want to at all be taken seriously.

These slimes that Jindal isn't brown enough because he chooses to assimilate in whatever manner he sees fit, are no better than the constant sniping that Obama wasn't black enough because he did not meet some standards of authenticity determined by self-appointed standard bearers. Or the nativism that you are disgusted with because they claim that Asians or Hispanics are not white enough.

I say this as someone who thinks Jindal is the devil (I only use that word so you can insert your favorite exorcism joke here). It does look, though, like his spend-happiness during the boom, which is flushing LA down the tubes right now, will put a dent in the reputation for fiscal responsibility that he acquired by cutting services for the poor (maybe he will repeat the same trick in these times - nobody easier to screw over than the disenfranchised). Why indulge in the worst kind of identity politics, when solid reasons to oppose Jindal are there for the taking?

Suki wrote:

What is wrong with most Americans wanting keep there dominant culture. They are no different then dominant ethnic groups everywhere else in the world.

Cultures change. Being closed to change, and trying to maintain cultural "dominance" is absurd. In fact, thinking about culture in terms of "dominance" is stupid. Salsa is more popular than ketchup -- is our culture "losing dominance"? Must we fight for ketchup? It's a stupid, and inhumane, way to think about life.

Same goes for people unhappy about Jindal becoming a wacko-Christian. Maybe one day all desis will be wacko-Christians (many are already wacko) -- so what? No need for Hindu/Muslim/Sikh to maintain a "dominance" in Desi life.

(I did have a friend named Slade in elementary school. He dropped out at 7th grade and is now a successful auto mechanic. He was pretty much a nice guy. Things could go worse for the Jindal kids.)

Ennis - Had Piyush changed his name to Bobby, named his son, Slade, pandered to the Louisiana electorate, in short done everything the same but as a Democrat and not a Republican, then, would you still have done this post?

@ # 16:

american as apple pie.

I think you just stumbled on to what could become the perfect American name: Apple Pie.
Can fall in line right behind Apple Blythe.

46 · Buster said

Then your post indicates that, in fact, the GOP has changed very little, if at all. "Old wine in a new bottle." (In this respect, by the way, I think you are spot on.)

Exactly, just like Jackie Robinson was old wine (an excellent sportsman and an exemplar of baseball's values) in a new bottle. Your reply indicates that race isn't an issue, that you don't think that the bottle part is important. But the RNC is much much whiter than the national population, so the bottle is, in fact, significant.

Here's another way to realize why the bottle matters. Palin's speech at the RNC was full of praise of small-town America, the very places from which minorities were ethnically cleansed in many regions. Not only did small-town clearly mean white, but she quoted the notorious anti-semite Westbrook Pegler when talking about small towns. (The reference went by most of the audience, but since Pat Buchanan used the same line in his book, it would have resonated with the nativists)

60 · Zainab said

Ennis - Had Piyush changed his name to Bobby, named his son, Slade, pandered to the Louisiana electorate, in short done everything the same but as a Democrat and not a Republican, then, would you still have done this post?

I'm going to say this again:
1. His name was a minor part of this post, only one line
2. I brought up his name not to argue anything about Jindal himself but to say that since his name is Bobby and his son's name Ryan Slade, I doubt the nativists would have a problem with him.

I think the name is one of the less interesting things about Jindal. I'm really not hung up on it. Razib and I were having a friendly back and forth about what could be inferred from Ryan Slade, but there's a reason why I made that point in passing.

If Jindal was a democrat this entire post would be different because the context would be different. It is noteworthy when the RNC puts a non-white son of an immigrant up as its national face. The DNC, on the other hand, selected somebody like that as Presidential candidate.

Rahul @ 58

There's no reason to bait. As I have said several times by now, I'm not making the argument you're associating with me. Yes, I think he's an assimilationist, but I don't think that's the most important thing about him, by far.

Your bait, btw, was weak. If you think the two issues are comparable, and the contexts the same ... (rolling eyes)

Manju,

Your lame jokes are getting tiresome.

Also, 'Slade Ryan' does not impress, intimidate enough...should have been 'Slade Runner'.

"(The Brady Bunch being the rather iconic representation of idyllic White America)"

Of for Krish sake. Don't they have goofy tv shows in India? Would you want something analagous (I could get funny here but I don't have the time) to be held up as an icon of Indians. It's you who are obsessed with the Brady Bunch. Personally I like I Love Lucy reruns, but if anything should be held up as icon of America at its most culturally confident, it would NOT be the Brady Bunch. Maybe the Twilight Zone. Or Superman. Catch one of those for Master of the Universe attitude.

I don't like Jindal's politics particularly, and I don't know what to think about his religion (mostly don't care), but if he is accepting the native culture of Louisian as part of his life, that is what he is freakin' supposed to be doing. It's where he chooses to live and work and run for public office. Americans don't accept you? Do you accept them? Slade isn't good enough a name? (I don't like it either btw); well then why would they want you around? If you don't want to "assimilate" then don't expect these-not-good-enough people to trust you with the public purse or their interests. Why should they?
If it isn't that they are not good enough, just not your type, ok. Then don't get offended when they don't want you around and f@#k up Punjabi names. Jindal is doing just fine. Finer than most.

Watson, it's SO elementary.

64 · Desi riksha said

Your lame jokes are getting tiresome.

i actually didn't make a joke on this thread...so it must be my serious opinions that are tiring you.

Your reply indicates that race isn't an issue, that you don't think that the bottle part is important.

Ennis, If you're trying to convince me that race matters, then you're preaching to the converted.

If, on the other hand, you're trying to convince yourself that the selection of Jindal to deliver the rebuttal indicates some step toward racial justice in America, that's another matter.

Anyway, weren't you the one who called him an "assimilationist’s wet dream?" I'm starting to think it wasn't just the prose that was knotty, but also the thinking.

But enough.

3 · ShallowThinker said

Since the name "Bobby" leads to heated debates, I think he should refer to him as

"He Whose name we dare not speak"

Just like Jesus during the Holidays.

And everything is politics. If this country voted for Lil Wayne for President then the Republicans would nominate "The Ying Yang Twins" as Chair of the RNC.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If they were only looking for strong candidates then why didn't they pick Charlie Crist of Florida. He is from a family of immigrants. But he doesn't have the "look."

Ennis - If you are implying that the only reason Jindal was asked to give the response to Obama's state of the union is because of Obama and Jindal's skin color, then I urge you to take a moment to revisit Jindal's career arc: he became the President of Lousiana's University system, Assistant Secretary of health, Congressman, and Governnor of Louisiana before the "age of Obama", and given Jindal's ambition, I would wager that he would be giving the response even if it was Hillary, Edwards or Biden in the Oval office instead of Obama.

Here's another way to realize why the bottle matters. Palin's speech at the RNC was full of praise of small-town America, the very places from which minorities were ethnically cleansed in many regions.

You talking about something that is from over 100 years ago. I have family in the States that live small town America and have lived there for over a couple of decades and they are doing fine. I grow up in Smalltown Canada, less then 30 minute drive from the US border and my parents have been there for over 35 years in area that 98% white and nobody try to ethically cleanse my parents.

Speaking of small towns. What about the small towns of the Punjab. My background is punjabi jatt sikh. Which also happens to be the main groups in many villages in the Punjab. The way Dalits and other low caste are treated there is just awful. Many of these places have Gurdwara which won't even let low caste people in.

59 · Ikram

You know, when cultures "change" usually there are people actively working to shape the change it undergoes right? I see know reason why we should just implicitly accept "change" when it gets dictated to us by demographic forces or through various forms of indoctrination (mass media, education, evangelism, etc.) but any attempt by us to have countervailing forces for change (question systemic biases in mass media, trying to mold the education curriculum, counter-evangelism, etc.) is suddenly met with "Cultures change! Just roll with it!"
You need to recognize that things don't just change in a vacuum. They change because someone or something is actively moving it in a certain direction.

If Jindal was a democrat this entire post would be different because the context would be different. It is noteworthy when the RNC puts a non-white son of an immigrant up as its national face. The DNC, on the other hand, selected somebody like that as Presidential candidate.

The DNC has done that one time.

25 · razib said

btw, bobby didn't take a big step toward assimilation: marry a white chick (which around 1/3 of american brown brownz do).

You mean 1/6, right?

The way Dalits and other low caste are treated there is just awful. Many of these places have Gurdwara which won't even let low caste people in.

Suki -
I know these things happen, but how do Sikhs who don't let low-castes enter their gurudwaras justify this. What happens in the tradition of, I think it's called langar? What about the whole dynamics that Sikhs were supposed to change their last names to Kaur or Singh (I believe) throw away caste discriminations? I'm curious how they justify this when their religion was formed as a reaction to caste discrimination and the religion wanted to extirpate this evil?

btw, bobby didn't take a big step toward assimilation: marry a white chick (which around 1/3 of american brown brownz do).

i meant american born. so yeah, 1/3. see here.

"...speech at the RNC was full of praise of small-town America, the very places from which minorities were ethnically cleansed in many regions. Not only did small-town clearly mean white, but she quoted the notorious anti-semite Westbrook Pegler when talking about small towns."

Well, the good people of Lewiston, Maine, might be able to weigh in on all this. The Somalis appear to have settled in and just keep on coming. The natives haven't done any ethnic cleansing yet, despite half of them being on welfare. Strange.

Politicians are so creepy. Both these candidates had associations with bigots but at least with the above quoted, it appears to have been relegated to words. I don't think she was ever spotted stepping out with David Duke, but hey, I ignored her as I ignore all the pols.

There have been hundreds of thousands of small towns. White people didn't swoop in from Norway and take over towns, driving minorities out. They built them around farms, factories, trading post, etc. The South has shameful examples of ethnic cleansing of blacks, but there have also been cases of Irish and Italian churches being burned, Germans were hounded out of some towns in WWI; Armenians not allowed, etc. This stuff goes on everywhere. It's a downside of small towns--they have to get to know you, and if you're "different" that's difficult. I have a Persian friend who said that in his country, rural people, uneducated people, were usually the most friendly and unassuming and least prejudiced. In the U.S., it's different, he thought.
Still, provide statistics when you make some overarching statment about small towns and race cleansing. Most people are thinking of a place where you can play baseball at night and then walk home safely. Where everyone understands the governance and each others' quirks. It is the same ambience that diasporas seek when they live near each other. Whites surrounded by people whom they might see as hostile towards them, fantasize of such a comfort zone. Whites make us nervous when they want to among themselves. They're still the majority--it's "their" country. But what if they aren't anymore? The more you try to tar all small towns with that race-guilt brush, the more you're going to get people defending them, because frankly, your case doesn't hold up too well

Small towns are small towns. They are not "white" or "black" though there have been thriving examples of both. Zora Neal Hurston, the black folk anthropoligist, came from a black one in Florida. "Ethnic cleansing" occurred in Boston when the Irish brought cholera to a WASP city that had been among the healthiest and most progressive in the world. The WASPs moved. They had no choice, yet they let them come. Schools, churches, hosptials, universities, in cities that are now overwhelmingly "minorities", were left behind. They didn't like it much. No wonder they want the small towns back. I think the whites will either take back their cities or their small towns in the future. Formerly black neighborhoods are now El Salvadoran. I see struggle. Cities are becoming hispanic, suburbs are getting more black. Section 8 can pop up anywhere.
I am rambling here. Basically my point is--when it comes to "ethnic cleansing"--just wait. What goes around come around. We all get our turn.

Your bait, btw, was weak.

I did try to keep it weak, glad I succeeded.

Yes, I think he's an assimilationist, but I don't think that's the most important thing about him, by far.

Yet, you see it fit to mention in every post or comment about him. I don't have time to dig it out, but this is not the first time you seem to be taking jabs at his choice of his own or kids' names, or his conversion. Maybe focusing on his politics instead of personal choices would be better.

(I will refrain from commenting further on the topic of presence or absence of your self-hate, or what I think of your harping on Jindal's choice to assimilate.)

Intended to put a smiley at the end of my parenthesized comment, since I meant it in a tongue-in-cheek manner.

It's unfortunate enough that a bunch of omniscient critics love to bash this man for an all-consuming self-hatred which they have uncannily, expertly diagnosed, but I find it especially distasteful that now, we're suddenly the Judiciary branch in charge of who gets to name their kid what-- and to what degree we may then criticize them for being "too assimilated".

Sad. The whole obsession with male Jindal names is sad. And pathetic. Slade is a popular southern name, AFAIK. What if-- hear me out here-- what if...Bobby and Supriya just like the name?

Have you collapsed from shock at that possibility?

That maybe they didn't use focus groups or engage in pitiable insecurity about what a few thousand bitter, irrelevant brown people would think of them, when going about their own business and naming THEIR child? I met a little brown baby named Jayden. How about you cackle about that, anonymously, on the interweb? Or is Jayden all good because his Dad is NOT a "sell-out" whose lifestyle and decisions conjure the discomfort about being "different" in which you marinated, back in the third grade?

Apparently, it's a lot more labor-intensive (and far less fun) to come up with a coherent comment about how disappointing it is that a Rhodes Scholar claims to believe in Creationism, so why not default to this lazy bullshit?

Ditto.

To add, whether one is an "assimilationist", "nativist", "mulitculturalist" frankly, why is in anyone's business? As an American each has the ability to choose their path to their own dreams (or if we're using some Alchemist language, you're personal legend) in an attempt to break whatever social category you're supposed to fall into.

To each their own, as long as it leads you to your path of happiness, while not trampling on others, it's no ones business what choice they make in life. A desi walking around in full desi clothing should be as good as one who has decided on wearing a suit/tie, converting to christianity, and naming his kid [enter western name here].

I don't agree with some of Jindal's policies, beyond that, his life and his values are his own. Lets judge the man on his actions as a politician and it's impact on the public, not on his kid's name or what lifestyle he prescribes to. The similar arguments were made against President Obama (flip side of the coin) and frankly, it's petty and irrelevant. People become Americans and define their own terms while making that journey.

78 · Rahul said

Yet, you see it fit to mention in every post or comment about him. I don't have time to dig it out, but this is not the first time you seem to be taking jabs at his choice of his own or kids' names, or his conversion. Maybe focusing on his politics instead of personal choices would be better.

I think it is relevant to some questions. I think his name makes him more acceptable within the republican party, as does the name of his child. I think it reveals something about his attitude towards assimilation. I don't presume to divine anything further from it, as far as his internal motivations.

You seem to be saying that we can judge him as a possible candidate without mentioning his name or religion, which is a baffling statement. Consider this last election - both Obama's name and his religion were central points of significance and debate. People supported him despite or opposed him because, but nobody would say it didn't matter.

Do you think that religion and name don't matter to the GOP rank and file?

In case I'm confusing you I believe the following:
a) that his name and religion are relevant to how he is judged by the American populace
b) that his name and religion tell us little about who he is. His name and his son's name tell us that he's pro-assimilation, but there is plenty of supporting evidence for that view.

I have no idea whether he loves himself or hates himself. I do know that the choices he made make him easier for others to love, I don't know if that was a factor in those choices.

80 · GujuDude said

To add, whether one is an "assimilationist", "nativist", "mulitculturalist" frankly, why is in anyone's business? As an American each has the ability to choose their path to their own dreams (or if we're using some Alchemist language, you're personal legend) in an attempt to break whatever social category you're supposed to fall into.

Ah, but it is politically relevant in terms of whether he is accepted by the broader population of this country. I don't think the average voter feels the way you do. They're not as willing to vote for non-Christians as they are Christians. They're also not as willing to vote for candidates with names they've never heard of.

If we're talking about the reaction of the party leadership and rank and file to a candidate, then his name and religion are very relevant to understanding what's going on.

Or do you think that if Jindal had exactly the same beliefs and track record, but was a turbanned, bearded, Sikh named Bhupinder Singh, that people would receive him in exactly the same way?

I think all of Suki's arguments are very persuasive and I second them.

Guju dude@80 seems to making a very balanced argument.

I don't agree with some of Jindal's policies, beyond that, his life and his values are his own. Lets judge the man on his actions as a politician and it's impact on the public, not on his kid's name or what lifestyle he prescribes to. The similar arguments were made against President Obama (flip side of the coin) and frankly, it's petty and irrelevant. People become Americans and define their own terms while making that journey

I think the confusion is whether to respond to the negatives of GOP/Jindal with balanced liberal opinions or negative (tit-for-tat) reactions. And there is no doubt that this is also influenced by one's own experiences.

56 · jabber said

As our parents say, white people don't have a culture!

Your parents are idiots!

Your parents are idiots!

amen.

81 · Ennis said

78 · Rahul said

Yet, you see it fit to mention in every post or comment about him. I don't have time to dig it out, but this is not the first time you seem to be taking jabs at his choice of his own or kids' names, or his conversion. Maybe focusing on his politics instead of personal choices would be better.

I think it is relevant to some questions. I think his name makes him more acceptable within the republican party, as does the name of his child. I think it reveals something about his attitude towards assimilation. I don't presume to divine anything further from it, as far as his internal motivations.
You seem to be saying that we can judge him as a possible candidate without mentioning his name or religion, which is a baffling statement. Consider this last election - both Obama's name and his religion were central points of significance and debate. People supported him despite or opposed him because, but nobody would say it didn't matter.
Do you think that religion and name don't matter to the GOP rank and file?
In case I'm confusing you I believe the following:
a) that his name and religion are relevant to how he is judged by the American populace
b) that his name and religion tell us little about who he is. His name and his son's name tell us that he's pro-assimilation, but there is plenty of supporting evidence for that view.
I have no idea whether he loves himself or hates himself. I do know that the choices he made make him easier for others to love, I don't know if that was a factor in those choices.

Why isnt black support of Obama on racial lines an issue? By the way America is not multicultural, it is multiracial. America can do without the problems multiculturalism has caused in Canada.

71 · Suki Dillon said

Speaking of small towns. What about the small towns of the Punjab. My background is punjabi jatt sikh. Which also happens to be the main groups in many villages in the Punjab. The way Dalits and other low caste are treated there is just awful. Many of these places have Gurdwara which won't even let low caste people in.

Two points:

1. Dalits/untouchables are outcastes.

2. Punjabi jatts are low caste (sudra).

The ugly discrimination you are rightly condemning is that of the lowest hindu caste against the hindu outcaste. This despite the fact that the perpetrators in these cases are no longer hindus; and despite the fact that their sikh gurus condemned casteism. If you really want to get under the skins of these obnoxious and hypocritical sikh casteists just point these facts out every time.

Via Slate, here's Zadie Smith on Barack Obama "speaking in tongues".

Compare with Jindal. Obama "speaks" a variety of black and white. Jindal never speaks Desi. He's "Joyce" from "Dreams from my father", once Joyce leaves college. If you agree with Smith that "flexibility in voice lead to flexibility in all things", then Jindal is no good at all.

(Yes, you have to read the Zadie Smith article to understand the above)

Ennis, I don't know about his name, but his vocal (in terms of policy) belief in conservative Christianity certainly plays a role in his popularity. I think you are way in inside baseball territory when you claim the average GOP'er cares that his boy is named Slade Ryan, and it reflects a certain desire to accumulate personal evidence in service of your opinion.

Ikram, I was going to link to that most excellent Zadie Smith article myself. Very relevant to the discussion of identity in this post.

88 · Ikram said

Via Slate, here's Zadie Smith on Barack Obama "speaking in tongues".

Compare with Jindal. Obama "speaks" a variety of black and white. Jindal never speaks Desi. He's "Joyce" from "Dreams from my father", once Joyce leaves college. If you agree with Smith that "flexibility in voice lead to flexibility in all things", then Jindal is no good at all.

(Yes, you have to read the Zadie Smith article to understand the above)

Being a chameleon is not a virtue. The article proves Barack Obama has no convictions. The ever morphing barry has a trick for every occasion.

89 · Rahul said

Ennis, I don't know about his name, but his vocal (in terms of policy) belief in conservative Christianity certainly plays a role in his popularity. I think you are way in inside baseball territory when you claim the average GOP'er cares that his boy is named Slade Ryan, and it reflects a certain desire to accumulate personal evidence in service of your opinion.

You're making inferences about my motivations at the same time that you're asking me not to do the same about Jindal AND you know far less about me than you do about him.

I live in the midwest, in a part of the country where (a long time ago) the KKK once made life difficult for Catholics. I've learned to spot a very Catholic name (Joseph Patrick or Xavier Francis) from a very Waspy one because it still matters in some parts of the country. Most Americans can tell a very Anglo name from a very Irish name or a very Mexican name or a very French name or a very Cajun name or a very Italian name or a very Polish name. If Mario Cuomo had run for President in the 1980s, his name would have been a liability for him in some parts of the country.

I'm going to stop responding to this line of questioning because, as I have said umpteenth times, it was one line about how Jindal was unlikely to be vetoed by nativists who might have had problems with a desi Catholic named Dinesh D'Souza and definitely would have had trouble with a candidate with a strongly Hindu or Muslim name. (Yes, I think his son's name also makes Jindal more palatable, whether that was Piyush and Supriya's intent or not)

If you think that simple point is overreach and intensely revealing of my inner soul and truest desires, well, you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't think I can say much to convince you otherwise.

Being a chameleon is not a virtue. The article proves Barack Obama has no convictions. The ever morphing barry has a trick for every occasion.

Have you ever heard the term "confirmation bias?"

Why isnt black support of Obama on racial lines an issue? By the way America is not multicultural, it is multiracial. America can do without the problems multiculturalism has caused in Canada.

The problems of multiculturalism in Canada are something you will see only get worse in the next decade in Canada. I hate to say it but I see racial problems in places like Toronto and Vancouver. A lot of Canadians feel that newcomers are not intergrating into Canadian society and the goverment is bending over backward too much for the newcomers.

90 · Desi riksha said

Being a chameleon is not a virtue. The article proves Barack Obama has no convictions. The ever morphing barry has a trick for every occasion.

Actually, exactly what the gifted Ms. Smith argues so beautifully against. But, hey, whatever makes you feel better.

86 · Desi riksha said

Why isnt black support of Obama on racial lines an issue? By the way America is not multicultural, it is multiracial. America can do without the problems multiculturalism has caused in Canada.

At the start of the primaries, black democratic voters didn't support Obama, they supported Clinton by a very large margin. They shifted early on, but the fact that they had to change allegiance at all shows that their endorsement was more than a simple knee-jerk embrace of a politician based on his skin color.

Or do you think that if Jindal had exactly the same beliefs and track record, but was a turbanned, bearded, Sikh named Bhupinder Singh, that people would receive him in exactly the same way?

Of course if he was turbaned sikh he would never be received that way. Since awareness of sikhs are very low alot of Americans would mistake him for a muslim. But I don't think that a white american sikh would do any better if he was put in the same place as Jindal cause of his look.

Doesn't anybody see the career/economic motivation in the assimilation game? Surely you desi kids have run into the "uncle" types in our community selling insurance or real estate resorting to user-friendly names like Mukesh "Mike" Patel or Sanjay "Jay" Singh or the Wal-Mart cashier whose name tag says "Sue" but the paycheck says Sushma. What's wrong with that? Let the neurosurgeon whose livelihood does not depend on assimilating stick steadfastly to a given name like SangiliMurugan Chidambaram. The poor desi guy who has to peddle 3 bedrooms/2 baths in New Jersey doesn't have that luxury.

This brings me to politics, perhaps the only career where befriending, or pandering to, if you will, millions of strangers who will never have a chance to discover the real you is the only way to stay in the job. Therefore, I can't fault Piyush for changing his name and religion. Heck, he should have used some Fair and Lovely to lighten his skin color, too, if that stuff actually worked. As for naming his son Slade, what's wrong with hoping that one's kid will follow the same career path, in which case Slade would be a way better choice than Rahul? Right, Rahul?

In the late Eighties and Nineties, I used to do a lot of business with the Chinese in Hong Kong. From the lowliest janitor to the corporate CEO's, every Chinese I met had an Anglican first name. Of course, they all had their Chinese names as well, but sporting these user-friendly handles was not at all a cultural embarrassment to them. They were probably tossing the entire western world a bone. Here's an easy name for you that won't twist your exquisite western tongue. Now, how about that million-dollar order?

There is a counterargument to my finely honed thesis - Barack Hussein Obama. How in the world a man with such an incredibly exotic name, with a middle name that practically means 9/11 to many Americans, could win the presidential race is beyond me. What a country!

Razib, I did catch your quick reference to the fiance. Congratulations.

2. Punjabi jatts are low caste (sudra).

You would have to be ready to defend youself if you said that infront of most jatts. To most jatts, being a jatt is the most important thing in the world to them. Just look at punjabi music. It seems that half of the songs that are by punjabi jatts singers. The word jatt is repeated over and over. It's kind of funny, but kind of sad at the same time.

97 · Floridian said

Doesn't anybody see the career/economic motivation in the assimilation game? Surely you desi kids have run into the "uncle" types in our community selling insurance or real estate resorting to user-friendly names like Mukesh "Mike" Patel or Sanjay "Jay" Singh or the Wal-Mart cashier whose name tag says "Sue" but the paycheck says Sushma. What's wrong with that?

Here's an earlier post on how employers discriminate against minorities based on their names. It's a neat experiment since the resumes they sent were identical except for the names on top, controlling for most confounding factors.

Suki - I know these things happen, but how do Sikhs who don't let low-castes enter their gurudwaras justify this. What happens in the tradition of, I think it's called langar? What about the whole dynamics that Sikhs were supposed to change their last names to Kaur or Singh (I believe) throw away caste discriminations? I'm curious how they justify this when their religion was formed as a reaction to caste discrimination and the religion wanted to extirpate this evil?

I think part of the problem is that the last few generation the sikh leadership has failed. Also alot of negative parts of punjabi culture have had bad impact on the sikh religon. I have no idea how they justify this, as any time I bring up this topic. I get no answers or alot of the time they try to change the topic or worse attack me back calling me a hater.

The sad thing is that I see alot of the same way thinking among many of the punjabi immigrants to the west, who are punjabi jatt first and sikh second. They can't let go of there 1950 village way of thinking, which does not work in North America in the year 2009.

97 · Floridian said

in which case Slade would be a way better choice than Rahul? Right, Rahul?

Floridian, I wouldn't be able to ingratiate myself to anybody if my name was Apple Pie Smalltowner. (It is fairly obvious that politicians' lifestyle choices are relevant to how the public relates to them. I am just amazed that after all that Obama was interrogated needlessly about personal choices, the same games are being played with Jindal. Does anybody remember the Madia post where his opponent asked the public to look askance at Madia's decision to - insert scare music here - rent! Surely, there's value to improving the level of discourse, rather than perpetuate the same old stuff?)

P.S: Did your daughter ever call (and not text!) over her Christmas break?

#99 Ennis said:

Here's an earlier post on how employers discriminate against minorities based on their names. It's a neat experiment since the resumes they sent were identical except for the names on top, controlling for most confounding factors.

But of course! Those of us who work with other well-educated, culturally aware people tend to forget that culture is a highly divisive factor in the lower socioeconomic strata of society, where many recent desi immigrants are ending up these days. I remember how uniformly grad-school-to-profession my generation of immigrants was. Thankfully, that's no longer the case.

Okay, here is a question. The early immigrants from Europe shed their "strange" names long ago. Do you foresee South Asians eventually succumbing to a far more widespread anglicizing of their names as more of them take up non-professional, lower income jobs where assimilation is almost necessary? Secondly, how about the ABD factor? Our ABD kids are far more comfortable with "American" names. Wouldn't they find it just as easy to name their offsprings Bobby instead of Piyush? A hundred years from now, what percentage of the second, third and fourth generation South Asians would still have their original names?

P.S: Did your daughter ever call (and not text!) over her Christmas break?

Nope! Right now the ABD daughter is defying the commands of this parental unit (I feel like Dan Aykroyd in The Coneheads) and dancing in the family room with a dozen other similarly crazed teenagers. My 83 year old dad wants to know if this particular type of music was especially written for this age group. I reminded him of the type of music we listened to that drove him just as much nuts back in the sixties - "Chahe Koi Mujhe Junglee Kahe." The poor guy is having deja vu all over again.

Thanks for asking about my daughter, Rahul.

Mebbe Jindal is a closet glam rocker?

What will Jindal say if Obama works in some of these phrases from his book in his national address ?

Was 2008 the last year that contenders for the top RNC spot will send out CDs of such chart topping hits as “Barack the Magic Negro,”

The irony of this post, Ennis, is that you called out the republicans for calling Obama a "Magic Negro" while simultaneously calling Jindal essentially that. perhaps you didn't know what a Magic Negro is or perhaps you think Jindal's is in fact one while Obama is not, but I'm wondering: how do you justify this?

"How in the world a man with such an incredibly exotic name, with a middle name that practically means 9/11 to many Americans, could win the presidential race is beyond me. What a country!"
Ah. We can't take all the credit.
That whole sound and light show was an international effort, believe me.
In addition to well-honed rhetorical skills, more money than was spent for all previous presidential elections put together, crashing rock concerts in Berlin making it look like they all came just for you, and not to mention near unanimous major press backing, all went to helping him along. I knew he'd be where he is now, 3 years ago when articles popped up out of nowhere in Newsweek and such. The decision had been made. Next stop, Bilderberger meeting. Reagan was a Teflon prsident because the press allowed it. Obama was the Teflon candidate. He does have a genuine following but frenzied fancy is a fragile thing.
In "Being There", the whole story was told 40 years ago. With the right by-lines and backing, ANYBODY can be president. They could run Britney Spears, Bernie Madoff, Arnie Schwarzenegger, Cheech and Chong, Queen Latifa, definitely Oprah, and any one of them could win the White House. Really. I'll bet they could run Putin if he jumped ship. Make him an honorary Amurikan. All it takes is total press backing and trillions of dollars, ignored laws of vetting and they'd be in the White House. Years before JFK ran, his father said they would package him like corn flakes and make him a winner. That's how its been done ever since.

Jindal? I actually don't think his race is an issue in his case. Not anymore. What is this "sell out" crap? What exactly do you want him to do as an elected official in the State he's in? If I live in India and plan to live there, raise kids there, be a good citizen, run for office--well, I'd probably name them something like--Krishnamurti or Kali Kelly, or Zubin, or little Jawahalal, depending on where I was planting my roots. Perhaps I would be indicted for child abuse, but I would mean well.
What's an issue is: he's too religous. Too Christian--media no like. And an odd sort. Catholics are not noted for creationism. I was Catholic and clergy used to tell us that there was no contradiction between evolution and Catholicism, and that was decades ago. Too seeking of working peoples' votes. As for his kids' names, at least you can spell them easily, which is not true of all stupid names people would love to laugh at it were politically correct.
By 2016, he'd be a sure winner if he'd stayed Hindu and became a Democrat. Republicans have tried wooing non-whites. it doesn't work. Non-whites don't vote Republican en mass. I am not sure how long the Dems will retain a lot of whites. Depends on what's in it for them. It'd be sad to have parties split by race, but it's going that way. I worked with USAID and thought it was such a joke for the US to be in various "developing democracies" organizing political parties and preaching about not letting personal or ethnic considerations influence the process. Physician, heal thyself.
The whole party system stinks frankly. It is divisive and lines people up under ridiculous and ofen irrelevant banners.

I am working on a new sure-fire justice-for-all system and will unveil it shortly.

The GOP to Piyush back against Obama

Except that "Piyush back" is still to enter the media-parlance, anything "against Obama" is an easy news-maker.

Ennis,

Ah, but it is politically relevant in terms of whether he is accepted by the broader population of this country. I don't think the average voter feels the way you do. They're not as willing to vote for non-Christians as they are Christians. They're also not as willing to vote for candidates with names they've never heard of

While I agree on the Christians vs. Non-Christians part, but the later has been proven false as the country just elected a funny and foreign named President, Barak Hussein Obama. Considering how much baggage his middle name holds, he still won the election (and all the nastiness was documented along the way).

If we're talking about the reaction of the party leadership and rank and file to a candidate, then his name and religion are very relevant to understanding what's going on.

His policies and value system is far more indicative of where he stands, not his superficial aspects. Bobby Jindal didn't drop his last name either. Nor is Bobby a foreign name in subcontinent, it's a pretty neutral universal name or pet name.

Or do you think that if Jindal had exactly the same beliefs and track record, but was a turbanned, bearded, Sikh named Bhupinder Singh, that people would receive him in exactly the same way?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends how well the candidate can use good strategy to circumvent his "perceived" handicaps (like Obama did). You're using extremes to argue a point. I also think your post is displaying some solipsism. Your personal experiences as a Sikh are very valid and real, but using the turbaned/bearded argument to point out why Bobby Jindal is a "nativists/assimilationist" wet dream doesn't cut it. A kid with the same name (Bobby Jindal) could be a very desi dude as well. IMHO, you're defining desi/brown in a very narrow manner, not considering that fact that Bobby as a name or his attitude aren't all that alien to the larger diaspora. It's a neutral one that works both ways.

"Assimilating" isn't wrong, if that's what makes you truly happy in life. Neither is maintaining an identity from the motherland if that's what makes you happy. Couple of generations down, majority of immigrants are "assimilated" anyway. Who are we to peg individuals in a category where they belong. If it's prejudice that keeps immigrants from moving ahead in America, then it's equally wrong to hate on people who never felt they belonged among a group to begin with.

A Bhupinder Singh may get elected to a position you may not expect some day, but it will be because his message and strategy is powerful enough that the electorate won't care too much about his name or religion. THAT is what is ultimately important, the core content of what you're delivering. A movie poster won't break or make a movie, it may have an impact on how well it catches on to a certain degree. The movie WILL make money because it's actually good and people recommended it to their friends/family, spreading how good it is by word of mouth. Everything else is just a shell game when your product isn't strong enough.

My 2 cents...

A Bhupinder Singh may get elected to a position you may not expect some day, but it will be because his message and strategy is powerful enough that the electorate won't care too much about his name or religion.

For example, the slogan of his insurgent (not in the Republican sense) campaign could be "Bhup some ass!". I'd vote for that guy.

Ennis,
I don't mean this with any malice in my heart, but why would a Hindu (or, frankly, anyone other than an upper-caste--yes, that's who's running the show, let's not lie to each other-Sikh) from India feel more solidarity with your wearing with your beard and turban than with Bobby Jindal, who has been elected to be the Governor of Louisiana? Seriously, WTF? You invoke your beard and turban as some sort of "calling card" that I am supposed to respond to--whatever, dude, you can dress yourself up as whatever you want, but I'm not going to judge you positively based on that (just as I'm not going to base you negatively on that). I identify a lot more with Jindal and his optimistic embrace of America than with your paranoia about America. America is good for me and my family, not bad. And, oh, yeah, my family was dirt-poor for generations in India--tens, of generations--now we have some money, and we don't give it to your pet causes--more like to VHP. Be a Democrat or a Republican, but stop hating on America b/c you're committed to your weird version of Sikhism that is somehow magically in line with communists and Islamists rather than with real liberals, who hate the latter two groups.

A President for the Ages?

Re: my earlier post on the emergence of democracy in the US, we now have a President of a non-European hue. Free, free at last! Watch the media swoon at the inaugural balls. And Oprah and Jesse crying! Well, the President is sophisticated and he actually mentioned the word "Hindu" along with other religions in his inaugural speech. And he says "Eeraan" and not "I-ran" and that is a truly wondrous thing.

But the popular media is still so illiterate. Things are so black-and-white. Many have declared the country free of racism and prejudice with the election of one different looking man about 200 years after the constitution got started. Lets have some perspective here folks! What about that senator from Louisiana. What if he wasn't born-again; what if he was twice-born? Would you vote for him as the next Republican candidate for President? Wouldja?
Meanwhile we had one woman take over from another in a presidential election in godforsaken, third-world, Muslim-dominant Bangaladesh. Boy, they must be crazy!

I really must be communicating poorly.

Gujudude:

If we're talking about the reaction of the party leadership and rank and file to a candidate, then his name and religion are very relevant to understanding what's going on.

His policies and value system is far more indicative of where he stands, not his superficial aspects. Bobby Jindal didn't drop his last name either. Nor is Bobby a foreign name in subcontinent, it's a pretty neutral universal name or pet name

We're talking past each other. I'm talking about how others perceive Jindal, and your response concerns his true inner nature. As I said in the comment you took the quote from, I'm not talking about the latter.

How somebody is perceived is very very important in politics. And as somebody who does political commentary on this blog, it is noteworthy.

Rob -

I am very positive about America. That's why I bother to talk about these issues, rather than pulling out to just make money and insulate myself from some of the nasty things I talk about.

I'm just talking about how different desi figures are perceived by the electorate. This is independent from their positions. The same set of positions, attached to different faces and names, will get different numbers of votes. Just like the same resume, with different names on top, will get an interview or be overlooked. The fact is that both employers and voters do judge a book by its cover.

Buster: This is precisely why, Jindal can be old wine in a new bottle AND Jindal and Steele's arrival signal that this isn't your father's GOP any more.

Rahul: Until voters stop judging candidates by their attributes, I am not going to stop writing about it. If voters only judged candidates by their positions, then that's all I would focus on too.

It's becoming pretty clear why a lot of people are desperately trying to belittle Bobby Jindal. All a case of being overly judgemental.

First of all, many desis see the Republican Party full of racists and rednecks. So seeing a brown person becoming popular with that party clearly upsets that view of Republicans...so people like Ennis must find reasons to re-assure themselves that the Republicans are still that racist, minority hating hicks. Easy explanation, he's assimiliated...now to find "evidence" to back this up...easy...look at his name...and his son's name...he's got to be a self-hating assimilated desi...just change your name to Bobby, name your son Slade and those dumb rednecks who run the Republican party can't tell the difference between you and white people.

Secondly, there's no way Jindal can win with these types of accusations. Like he didn't marry a white woman...oh that's cos he didn't want to offend them racist white folks for taking away one of their women. Of course if he had married a white woman, that would've been presented as Exhibit A in proving he's a self hating person. There's no way he can win. And yeah Jindal rhymes with jingle...nice argument there...dismiss the question why he didn't shorten his name to Bobby Jin.

Fact is, it bothers a lot of desis (like Ennis) that their well constructed view of the Republicans being racist is disturbed, and that too by someone with the same colour of them...there has to be some good, sinister explanation for why Jindal is popular with Republicans. Yes he must've sold his soul to the Devil.

Suki Dillon - You are right about casteism amongst Sikhs, particularly Jat Sikhs. And not just in India. Indeed, there are Gurudwaras all over North America and England, wich are exclusively frequented by one Sikh caste or another. Any Gurudwaras named for Guru Ravi Das is built by Dalit Sikhs, and there are also Labana Gurudwaras. In both these temples you will very rarely encounter Jat Sikhs.

Having a funny name and being the son of immigrant will not prevent you from becoming Governor. Let not forget about the great former governor of Illinois Rod Blagojevich, a man who some have compared to Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King. The same great governor who appointed a black man Rod Burris to the senate when there were none. Making him a modern day Branch Ricky who helped Jackie Robinson become the 1st black player in baseball. But then this great man was impeached for no good reason.

Only in country like America can people like Jindal and Blagojevich sons of immigrants make it to the top. And who knows after Blago is found of innocent of these false charges could we see Jindal vs Blagojevicjh in 2016.

We're talking past each other. I'm talking about how others perceive Jindal, and your response concerns his true inner nature. As I said in the comment you took the quote from, I'm not talking about the latter

Fair enough...

And who knows after Blago is found of innocent of these false charges could we see Jindal vs Blagojevicjh in 2016.

Innocent or not, Blago is done. His political support structure where he drew his power from is gone. His handling of the case has resulted in the man not having any credibility or capital.

great former governor of Illinois Rod Blagojevich, a man who some have compared to Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King.

you're kidding, right?

Jindal seems like a smart and successful politician. I fail to understand this attitude. It seems unique.

1. An American of Indian origin Sonal Shah is religious, retains her desi roots / culture and connections and donates her time (and possibly money) to VHP. It is a problem and she is evil and not to be supported.

2. An American of Indian origin Bobby Jindal moves away from his desi roots / culture and connections and donates his time and energy to republican party and becomes a governor. It is a problem, he is not to be supported.

Hmm. So in order for an American of Indian origin to be supported, it looks like he/she needs to get a manual from the likes of Vijay Prashad on what constitutes good behavior and follow the same. :-)

you're kidding, right?

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/0/a/2/blagos-head.jpg

"Hmm. So in order for an American of Indian origin to be supported, it looks like he/she needs to get a manual from the likes of Vijay Prashad on what constitutes good behavior and follow the same. :-)"

yes, *that* conclusion clearly follows from your premises :-)

116 · Suki Dillon said

Let not forget about the great former governor of Illinois Rod Blagojevich

Blagojevich's father-in-law was a major figure in the Chicago political machine, and he only got his shot after there were several political crises. He's an interesting example, but not of name blindness.

floridian - welcome back. I have for one have missed your sagacity. Hope all is well with family and the business.

119 · Ponniyin Selvan said

Jindal seems like a smart and successful politician. I fail to understand this attitude. It seems unique.

1. An American of Indian origin Sonal Shah is religious, retains her desi roots / culture and connections and donates her time (and possibly money) to VHP. It is a problem and she is evil and not to be supported.

2. An American of Indian origin Bobby Jindal moves away from his desi roots / culture and connections and donates his time and energy to republican party and becomes a governor. It is a problem, he is not to be supported.

Hmm. So in order for an American of Indian origin to be supported, it looks like he/she needs to get a manual from the likes of Vijay Prashad on what constitutes good behavior and follow the same. :-)

wow. this is incredibly true. Almost strikingly on target.

i am no fan of jindal's politics, but this entire argument is quite judgmental. you can name your kid anything you want. i think it is far more tricky to consider the abcds, arroganly "proud" that they've "retained" their roots, naming their kid a very anglocised desi name such as neil or maya.

suki, thank god!

ya never know these days.

Innocent or not, Blago is done. His political support structure where he drew his power from is gone. His handling of the case has resulted in the man not having any credibility or capital.

I have feeling that Blago will make one of the great political comebacks of all time. Even D.L Hughley the future voice of black America has called Blagojevich his all time hero and said he wants to help prove Blago is innocent.

Blagojevich's father-in-law was a major figure in the Chicago political machine, and he only got his shot after there were several political crises. He's an interesting example, but not of name blindness.

I think it may have more to do with his hair.

Judge Jindal by what he does, and what his politics are. Look to your own family and friends for ethnic identity. The real problem is the GOP positioning him as the minority candidate a la Obama, though he is perceived as moving away from his ethnic roots. You cannot have it both ways. If Jindal built his career specifically not to be the minority candidate to get to where he is as governor of Louisiana, he nor the GOP should expect him to be appealing as a "minority" candidate to minorities now just because Obama won.

25 · razib said

If his son had been named Moishe Teitelbaum Jindal, what would you think?
If his daughter had been named LaQuisha Jindal, what would you think?

fair enough point. laqisha. lol.

He's a brown Catholic. Slade Ryan (to my ears) sounds very waspy, that is, very white, very angle an very protestant. It sounds as deliberate as any of the names I've listed above.

american white cultures are more diverse than this, you're stereotypes aren't too fine-grained. the catholics in louisana are cajun, which is way diff. than northern catholics. here's a baby name map. a new england WASP would not have a name like 'slade.' it's a nouveau name and lacks class. things are different in the south, and the southern upper class has that weird habit of giving kids last names as first (e.g., jackson). it turns out that slade is a welsh surname, but i suspect it is a normal name in his social circles. see this article on politics & baby names.

btw, bobby didn't take a big step toward assimilation: marry a white chick (which around 1/3 of american brown brownz do).

"Slade" isn't a Welsh surname; it's an English surname...from Old English/Anglo-Saxon.

somehow my above comment got messed up. I was only saying that '"Slade" isn't a Welsh surname; it's an English surname...from Old English/Anglo-Saxon.' The other comments is someone else's.

But something else which is interesting....

In the latest Politics Home survey, Bobby Jindal is the most popular Republican in the US, and in fact the most favourably rated of all of the politics figures they asked their surveyees about, see: http://www.politicshome.com/USA/Landing.aspx?Blog=6132&perma=link

109 · GujuDude said

"Assimilating" isn't wrong, if that's what makes you truly happy in life. Neither is maintaining an identity from the motherland if that's what makes you happy. Couple of generations down, majority of immigrants are "assimilated" anyway. Who are we to peg individuals in a category where they belong. If it's prejudice that keeps immigrants from moving ahead in America, then it's equally wrong to hate on people who never felt they belonged among a group to begin with.

I never said it was right or wrong. People keep claiming that I have passed a judgment here, and I am honestly perplexed and befuddled by this. What I said was that the fact that his name is familiar and easy for an American to say (and yes, Bobby is an American name) means that that nativists who would normally oppose a candidate named Piyush have no objection to one named Bobby.

It's an important point, but not one that is value laden. People keep reading my post according to what they want / expect to hear, and it's really bizarre for me as the writer to see what people think I said.

I am getting bored with Jindal. It always is the same discussion about him. His name, his religious conversion, blah blah blah. These topics are less and less of interest. I think his politics sucks (too right wing), his name Bobby is stupid (but whatever, he can call himself what he likes), and I don't care about his conversion (just not a role model to me in that respect). The more people bring him up, the more annoying he gets. Now I wish he would just go away, but I know that it is unlikely, because the stupid GOP is all about promoting minorities, post Obama. I resent them promoting Jindal as the great brown GOP hope. I as a minority feel used, not respected. The tactics of the GOP via minorities (Steel,Cao, not only Jindal) and women (Palin) is more interesting to talk about than the same old Jindal stories.