It is ridiculous how easy it is to stoke populist outrage at the expense of logic. The total number of H1 workers is around 65,000, which is around 0.2% of the total workforce. Considering that unemployment is around 8.5%, the 0.2% is actually a very small fraction of total unemployment. In related news, Fannie and Freddie actually moved some call center jobs back to the US even though they should really be doing heavy duty cost-cutting.

The fundamental premise behind such misguided protectionism is the implicit assumption that jobs, somehow, are a fundamental right and that they should be allocated based on the policies of senators. In practice though, any job is really the culmination of some kind of competition (that's how jobs are created, filled and terminated) and the salary that an employee receives is part of this competition. Looking at it that way, the implication of the rhetoric of the Senators above is that the qualified H1-B professionals filling up these positions are too simple, or worse too desperate, to negotiate what their fair-market-value salary is. If indeed these jobs can be filled by such simpletons, perhaps American companies willing to pay $80,000 for jobs that can be filled by such simpletons are terribly managed and need more aggressive cost-cutting.

So if hiring an American is too expensive, the job will just move overseas?

American government will have to deal with this H1-B issue sooner or later. The real money makers in this case are the business executives, folks who announce 10% salary cuts in the ‘base salary’ as that will ‘save jobs’ – and then receive a 45% increase in the yearly bonuses.

The total number of H1 workers is around 65,000, which is around 0.2% of the total workforce.

That is 65000 new visas per year, which is called H1B visa cap. This does not include the J1s and F1-to-H1 status modification. More importantly -- once we get in, we don’t go back :). An H1-B visa holder can maintain the status for at least 6 years then after that if he or she has filed for immigrant visa and has reached a stage where the application is in the queue, he/she can stay here until the application is approved.

I’m a life-long Democrat, but one aspect of the Democratic party message that has at times bothered me in recent years is the tendency towards protectionism.

Actually, Sulabh, F-1 to H-1 modifications are included in that cap. My question still remains if you would work for a company that paid you 50% of what they would pay an American. That seems to be the core of Sen. Grassley's argument.

I am all for the US regulating who has the right to live and work in the country. But the quality of the debate that goes into the process of making these guidelines frightens me. It seems that the lawmakers who are writing these have no clue on the existing laws and how dangerous and unfair vague subjective laws can be.

They say that they are worried that laid-off Americans struggling to find work are being displaced by foreign junior investment analysts, computer programmers and corporate lawyers who accept a fraction of the pay commanded by Americans.

Statements like these are so stupid that I do not even know where to begin. For instance, legally, as per the existing laws prior to this, H-1B cannot be offered less than a US worker for the same job. There are a lot of nuances to this, but when lawmakers make such basic howlers, it makes no sense to go into the nuances.

Ultimately, the US economy is hardly going to be made or broken by a handful of H1-Bs (the tech sector is a different matter). Given that H1-Bs do not have the time or inclination or propbably the numbers, to organize themselves effectively, they are an easy group to target. Obama needs a circus to distract everyone from the miserable failure of the TARP policies, and H1-Bs seem like a good choice to feed to the lions.

Indeed, I’m fairly sure that H-1B engineers from India are getting paid considerably more than $40,000 a year on average.

For Instance want to know the a minimum a computer programmer in Edison, NJ is to be paid --$68,080 annual based on 2007 (http://online.onetcenter.org/link/summary/15-1021.00">http://online.onetcenter.org/link/summary/15-1021.00">http://online.onetcenter.org/link/summary/15-1021.00)

Want to find out how many H1s Citigroup asked for in NY -- right here along with their rates (more 100+ K jobs than 40K)

BTW most H1-Bs are in too precarious a position to buy a house. Sinking so much money on a (currently) risky investment makes no sense to someone who might be asked to leave everything behind in a flash.

As an H1B worker myself, i find it surprising how the politicians call out H1B holders as some sort of parasites, ignoring their contribution to the economy. H1 workers pay their taxes; start new companies, and provide employment to American workers. How is that a bad thing?

As for replacing the Indian/Russian/Chinese immigrant workers, i doubt American schools are producing that many number of qualified american professionals to take their place.

Not sure protectionism is going to help improve the US economy. If anything it will just lead to increased competition from developing countries once these professionals are shown the door.

Amreekandesi, not to forget that H1B workers pay unemployment insurance & social security taxes (if you are an Indian citizen), the fruits of which they don't enjoy (if you are H1B without a job, you return to home country & similarly if you are an H1B retiree, you don't have a legal status to stay on in the US). I am not sure of the impact on disability benefits, but since employment conditions change while on disability that may also have some effect on H1 validity.

>> foreign junior investment analysts, computer programmers and corporate lawyers

in a way this protectionism maybe good for other industries both here and abroad. the banking, financial and law sector career has been hyped too much. will be interesting to see the breakdown of industry/career versus H1B.

>>During a bad recession with spiralling unemployment, of course, any earlier caution we might have seen from politicians regarding >>protectionism is going to be in danger

will be interesting to see how the democrats handle protectionism versus trade especially when there can be counter protectionism from other trading partners..for e.g. Mexico retaliates

@DDiA - 65,000 is the cap per year, and H-1Bs are valid for next 6 years, so there could be 6 times 65k H-1Bs at any given time, considering the cap has been filled every year. Much more, actually, since many H-1Bs apply for green cards and can extend their visas every year beyond 6 years. But still you're right to say that's a small percentage of the American worker population.

But I think we're missing something in all the above comments. EAWA does not bar hiring H-1B workers per se. It does not cut the 65000 cap. It does not ask companies to fire their existing H-1B workers. All that it says is this: If you (company) has taken tax payer money, you've got to make sure you do not hire a foreign worker for a position that's similar to one from which an American was recently laid off or will be laid off within 90 days. Now how can this be called unfairly protectionist? When the economy is booming and thousands of trained professionals are needed, I agree there is a shortage of Americans to fill those roles and hence requires foreign talent. But in a recession when thousands have been laid off, a large pool of experienced professionals has been created, many of whom are Americans. What's wrong in asking that new hiring should make use of the Americans in this pool first, before looking for foreign workers?

Now I totally agree that the rhetoric spewed by the two senators is BS. Their original bill barring H-1Bs entirely was protectionist. But the final language passed by the Congress seems to make sense to me.

Not pit H1Bs against minimum wage folk, but what's the official Sanders/Grassley line on illegal aliens?

Not pit H1Bs against minimum wage folk, but what's the official Sanders/Grassley line on illegal aliens?

Here is Sander's voting record on immigration:
http://www.ontheissues.org/International/Bernie_Sanders_Immigration.htm
Unprincipled scumbag. It looks like he is pro illegals and anti legal. So, he is just playing playing it for the votes.

Grassley is at least consistent:
Anti -immigration. period.
http://www.ontheissues.org/International/Chuck_Grassley_Immigration.htm

Thank you for posting this. I am personally affected by this - I attend a top MBA school in the US, and have an offer to join a top investment bank (was a plum job at the time!) upon graduation this summer. The EAWA has thrown off all of my plans, and I am faced with a lot of uncertainty regarding my employment - lawyers don't know too much about this either, although they do apologize that I am feeling the brunt of this. Thankfully, the bank has not rescinded any offers, they are exploring options - I'll just have to see this all play out. One thing I am certain about - all my classmates (American or not) were given the opportunity to interview with this bank but they didn't get offers, and no American citizen has replaced me at this investment bank (yet).

And no, I'm not cheap IT labor - I will be in a post-MBA Investment Banking position there, and I was to get paid as much as any other American Associate. So, the people who are affected are sadly not who they are portrayed to be (the underpaid worker of a scheming firm?).

Now how can this be called unfairly protectionist? When the economy is booming and thousands of trained professionals are needed, I agree there is a shortage of Americans to fill those roles and hence requires foreign talent. But in a recession when thousands have been laid off, a large pool of experienced professionals has been created, many of whom are Americans

While some of your concerns are valid, you are taking a very narrow view of the whole situation. American companies make a good amount of money in Asia and Europe. Also, America is a country which has championed the cause of free movement of capital, goods and labor for as long as one can remember. It is also widely seen as the biggest cause (which does not mean its all true, I am talking perceptions here) of the present crisis. Now, America starts taking steps which restrict the flow of labor, other countries retaliate. In India there was already a rally advocating that people stop buying American goods. Europe needs only half a excuse to look towards protectionism and this gives them that. If this escalates, it would be depression era again. And American companies and thus the US economy would be hurt as much as anyone else when they cannot sell their stuff abroad. The signals sent out to the markets are as important as the steps taken and in this case, the signals being sent out are quite bad.

Second, many students come here, get assistantships and gain great skills in the Universities. If there is a H1-B crackdown, they will simply go back and from an American point of view, its a loss.

Also, I am not so sure that the kinds of jobs H1-Bs cater to (discounting the case of exploitation) are balanced by a purely internal labor supply, even in a recession. There may be some element of truth to it, but short term knee jerk reactions to the situation would mitigate long term benefits.

On the other hand, a lot of people here on H1-B do not invest in houses or spend as much because of the uncertainty. These are generally people with good savings and disposable incomes. Instead if you reduce the uncertainty, they can become helpful in bringing about the recovery.

>>@DDiA - 65,000 is the cap per year, and H-1Bs are valid for next 6 years, so there could be 6 times 65k H-1Bs at any given time, >>considering the cap has been filled every year. Much more, actually, since many H-1Bs apply for green cards and can extend their >>visas every year beyond 6 years. But still you're right to say that's a small percentage of the American worker population

thats an excellent point. a useful bill in this regard will be to formulate rules that for every country (especially India, China) no new H1B will be issued unless the existing backlog of permanent residency applicants is cleared off. otherwise h1b scheme seems more like a credit card debt to me with virtually zero interest rate excepting perhaps their contribution to the economy,...
in fact instead of increasing h1bs to solve the housing slump clearing the backlog will be more beneficial since the exisiting h1b->gc already have jobs.

but i am sure republicans will be up in arms against these proposals.....

a useful bill in this regard will be to formulate rules that for every country (especially India, China) no new H1B will be issued unless the existing backlog

Not sure if I understand this correctly. Why does country of origin matter in this case? Even if you have a lot of Indians and Chinese..

Guys,
It's perfectly fine that you support the H1B program. However, posting stuff here probably isn't going to change people's minds, since most of the posters here are pro-H1B in the first place.

If you want to effectively reach your target audience, I suggest you go to the anti-outsourcing sites (such as computerworld.com) and argue with people there.

Just my 2 cents.

Incidentally, here's a discussion in the New York Times blog about immigration policy and foreign workers. It isn't related to EAWA as such. When you read the expert responses, you see how vastly opposing their claims and perceptions are.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/do-we-need-foreign-technology-workers/?hp

I think the biggest problem with any such debate is the absence of PERTINENT factual numbers that everyone can agree on. Supporters talk about how immigrants created half of Silicon Valley and companies they created contribute hundreds of billions in revenue. But that doesn't make for any good defense unless you can show what percentage of H-1B workers who come in each year are actually "best of the best", "innovators and creators", "highly skilled", and actually innovated, let alone created start-ups. Opponents claim immigrants depress wages, but they present no supporting numbers/historic trends to conclusively prove that wages in certain fields (IT for example) were increasing at a much higher rate in the 80s/early 90s before "cheap foreign workers showed up in droves". All mere claims.

There is just such a huge difference between skilled workers who come to this country legally and work for American wages and workers who take outsourced jobs and stay right where they are, or illegal workers who work for reduced wages under the table. Its insulting that our leaders don't understand that.

I'm someone who is very concerned about the wage-deflating effect of illegal immigration, and I generally dislike outsourcing (despite the fact that I have two cousins who have benefited from it in India). But this just pisses me off. How do people like my parents, hard-working, extremely skilled people, hurt anyone in this country? They didn't deflate anyone's wage. They didn't steal any "American jobs". And they raised a family here, and gave back to the communities that took them in.

Its people like us that make up America, as far as I'm concerned. Racists can suck it.

And no, I'm not cheap IT labor - I will be in a post-MBA Investment Banking position there, and I was to get paid as much as any other American Associate.

This is exactly the point. There are two broad categories of jobs for which H-1Bs are sought - the first is in highly specialized technical occupations, both at large firms - at the Googles and Microsofts of the world - and in smaller niche firms. The second is the 'more generic professional job', whose technical and specialized content is not as significant, and for which there has usually never been a shortage of native-born American aspirants. MBA jobs would probably fall in the latter category. BTW, I have held H-1Bs in both kinds of jobs.

Americans are said to flock to jobs in law and finance precisely because the more technical occupations are thought to have (i) 'higher skill requirements', which are effective entry barriers (ii) lower relative salaries (iii) more uncertain career tracks. The substitution of H-1Bs for Americans in such jobs is therefore thought to be (an implicit) win-win-win: the 'higher skilled' foreigner works at a lower relative salary in a career track with more uncertain prospects, in jobs that Americans are said not to particularly covet in the first place. This arrangement adds value both across the economy and within a firm, in a way that might actually enable the American to earn a higher salary at the non-H1B occupations. Now, each of these assumptions breaks down in a recession, but let's leave that aside.

The real issue arises when H-1Bs begun to get hired into professional jobs that Americans themselves covet, in a recession. Then clearly part of the 'win-win-win' breaks down, quite possibly all of it. Here the argument that the H-1B is 'making the same salary as the American' can be misleading, because when enough H-1Bs are hired, or even if they are in the same labor pool, the number of people seeking those jobs increases, so the average salary could come down, even if it is the same across Americans and H-1Bs. The situation becomes even more complicated, and much less tolerable, when the company in question is a financial company that has accepted taxpayer bailouts, and that has recently laid off Americans in the very job category it is now hiring H-1Bs into.

A definition of 'protectionism' which includes in its ambit even minimal restrictions (no prohibitions yet) for hiring H-1Bs into the second category of occupations is clearly problematic, for it privileges the interests of foreign-born workers (and their employers) over all native born workers. In my view, having such a wide definition of protectionism means there is no space to even in theory buffer native born workers from the impact of recessions in the age of globalization: you can lose your job, and the company can turn right around and hire a foreign-born worker in your place, even as it also accepts a taxpayer bailout. Clearly a more nuanced compromise is needed. In the long term, perhaps a global wage convergence would make such issues moot, but until then, the issue very much matters. So the argument can be over unintended consequences, or over effectiveness of the policy, not over whether some such policy is desirable in the first place. All policies are compromises between competing interests, and most have at least some unintended consequences. So will this one.

But I hope at the end of this, there is some visa reform to enable the following things: (i) The list of occupations H-1Bs can be hired for is more clearly defined (ideally, mainly, or only, IT and R&D workers, outside the vanilla white collar occupations) (ii) The space for continual fudging and conflation of H-1Bs with B-1s (business visitors not supposed to work) and L-1s (genuine intra-company transferees) is brought to an end. This is not an argument for ending H-1Bs, it is just an argument for rationalizing the regulatory guidelines surrounding it, and for better enforcement - things which are, after all, also in keeping with the broader spirit of the times.

Cherry-P -- thanks muchly for your clarification on the EAWA in Comment #11. I wasn't aware that they had softened the restrictions on the number of H-1B in the final bill.

Rookie (#14), thanks for sharing your experience. I have heard a couple of similar stories, including a friend of a friend who went through an extremely trying time at U.S. Customs a couple of weeks ago. The customs officer looked up the company he worked for on the internet during the secondary interview process, and went so far as to actually call the company and ask for evidence that the company couldn't find a U.S. worker for the same position!

No one is getting the boot. The law does not impact any current H-1B worker. I think the requirements are rather reasonable. With unemployment at 8.5%, why should an American Company which is being loaned money from the American taxpayer get to fire an American worker and get a foreign worker in his place?

Also this is law will have almost no impact on anything. The requirements all have loopholes. The corporate interets get to write these laws and the silly requirement that the job should be given to any American worker with similar qualifications is the same requirements when you give a green card to an alien under EB-whatever category. The applications from American workers are simply trashed.

How about making these companies stop offshoring jobs? These companies are firing American workers in droves while offshoring and outsourcing their jobs. The additional profits are distributed to the top executives. The other workers and the consumers dont see a dime of those savings usually.

At times like these it certainly helps to take an unbiased, objective look at the situation. I am a manager at a large US consulting firm that has a huge presence in India. Over the last few years, reacting to customer pressure on costs (and the unsaid drive for profit from upper management), our firm has setup large offshore centers for client support - I personally setup a few teams. This directly lead to over capacity in the US workforce of our firm and I had the displeasure of laying off several very talented native born Americans (including an ABD). The personal situations of some these people we had to let go is gut wrenching - a guy with 3 very young children and a stay-at-home (home-maker) wife; a very talented guy from a good (popular) tech school who recently bought a house, a guy in his 50s etc.

These affected folks know very well their circumstance has been caused by their work having been sent offshore. Now how will you justify H1Bs in this situation we are currently in, with 8,000 tech jobs having been slashed in 2009, including 4,100 just last month? This is a 1-2 punch to the American worker. I guarantee you that the Indian born worker will feel the same way once he/she moves off their H1B status - I have seen that first hand among friends. We need to take a honest look in the mirror to answer these questions. I see people parroting free market principles they heard somewhere and articulating it as best as they can. But the bottom line is basically common sense stuff - the employers need to demonstrate they have not been able to hire local talent before applying for H1Bs. And companies with such needs are not even asking for bail out money. There is nothing new with the politicians who spew anti-immigration rhetoric. But let us please be honest amongst ourselves first - if not, we are no different from those politicians who embody hypocrisy.

As a comment above said, if you think you have a valid point and want to communicate that, its best done on anti-H1B sites like computerworld.dotcom.

Thank you for posting this. I am personally affected by this - I attend a top MBA school in the US, and have an offer to join a top investment bank (was a plum job at the time!) upon graduation this summer. The EAWA has thrown off all of my plans, and I am faced with a lot of uncertainty regarding my employment - lawyers don't know too much about this either, although they do apologize that I am feeling the brunt of this. Thankfully, the bank has not rescinded any offers, they are exploring options - I'll just have to see this all play out

Let me make a reckless prediction. You will get the job. The new law has enough loopholes for Rush Limbaugh to drive through the hole driving Arnold's hybrid Hummer.

The reason they are acting unsure is because they will re-negotiate your contract and save some bucks. Since this silly legislation was enacted, companies have started renegotiating the contracts with their current H-1B workers even though they are not covered by this legislation.

Everyone in USA is weeping over the possible demise of the current system. Is anyone here celebrating like I am? Let Babylon fall!

But the bottom line is basically common sense stuff - the employers need to demonstrate they have not been able to hire local talent before applying for H1Bs. And companies with such needs are not even asking for bail out money

The employer wont have to demonstrate diddly-squat. The whole thing is a sham.

Let me make a reckless prediction. You will get the job. The new law has enough loopholes for Rush Limbaugh to drive through the hole driving Arnold's hybrid Hummer.

The reason they are acting unsure is because they will re-negotiate your contract and save some bucks. Since this silly legislation was enacted, companies have started renegotiating the contracts with their current H-1B workers even though they are not covered by this legislation.

Thanks for the prediction (I hope it turns out to be true) - but I already have the job, I just need the blessing of "work authorization". I am not certain the conservative lawyers representing the firm are going to be able to pull anything off. I am fairly certain that this is not about my pay (the bank has not said a word about any change in compensation), but rather their desire to be law-abiding and not stir any trouble. In all likelihood, there will be another clarification soon issued regarding the EAWA, which will determine if I am totally screwed or only partially. So much for paying SS and Medicare taxes for 3 years and a hefty tuition in this country, and losing the opportunity of a lifetime in return.

So much for paying SS and Medicare taxes for 3 years and a hefty tuition in this country, and losing the opportunity of a lifetime in return.

The legislation needs to be changed to allow SS and Medicare taxes to be refunded to H-1B workers.

Why do politicans and bloggers and commentors alike stress on American, when they say, "American taxpayer." Last I checked, everyone working legally pays taxes, including H1Bs and all other immigrant workers that work above the table. Add to this, h1Bs pay SS and Medicare taxes, as mentioned by commentors upthread, that they will never benefit from.

They should have an H-1B program to import college professors especially in the economics department of American colleges.

The H1s at educational institutions don't count towards the annual cap and are not transferable.

when i worked in software labor competition introduced by H1Bs & possibility of outsourcing did have an effect on how one worked and how one negotiated for salary ;-) in the end it means cheaper software for the end user (and perhaps higher profits for capital in the short term before price competition worked that away). OTOH, i don't like the H1B status and never have. if you want more high skilled labor, increased the quotas for high skilled immigrants and have them be greencard holders! that means that they can negotiate for salary with all the same background conditions as other participants in the labor market. as it is from what i recall (perhaps they changed it since the years i've been away from software) there was some aspect of quasi-indentured servitude to H1Bs. they didn't have the same bargaining power as native workers. there a little bit of grapes of wrath labor bidding to it all.

also, i think it's totally cool to favor american workers. we pay for americans who aren't able to pay via medicaid and AFDC and a variety of other entitlements as well as charity. if an H1B is kicked out of the country yes, we lose skilled labor and some costs will go up, but we won't have to pool communal monies via gov. entitlements. it's not fair, but then the existence of nation-states is not fair (e.g., compare the wages of unskilled laborers in the USA vs. mexico).

fundamentally i think we should view movement of capital vs. labor as qualitatively different things in a globalized world. we have moral obligations labor that we simply don't have to capital. labor once enfranchised can vote, and labor has sentiments and feelings which exist outside of the box of economics. there is a lot more "friction" that can arise from movements in labor than capital. of course some of you may be randians who don't believe there's a moral obligation, but who cares, you still have to face taxes to pay for other people's consumption of basic necessities, or you go to jail. welcome to the slave state :-)

Ardy@17 : Not sure if I understand this correctly. Why does country of origin matter in this case? Even if you have a lot of Indians and Chinese.

Most other countries don't have such a huge backlog in GC and I am sure most firms that are receiving bailout employ Indians and Chinese as H1Bs. Again it will be very interesting to see the break up of job/industry versus H1Bs (including country of origin) employed to argue factually.

Everyone in USA is weeping over the possible demise of the current system. Is anyone here celebrating like I am? Let Babylon fall!

I am. Although with all the fondness for public humiliation in reality TV and greed and decadence on Wall Street, I would say let the Roman Empire fall!

also, people have different interests. it isn't just politicians being demagogues. gains from trade and immigration differ by sector.* of course one would expect indian americans who are immigrants or the children of immigrants to view these issues differently from an industrial worker in the midwest. if you want to be a thorough utilitarian who doesn't prioritize bounds of fellow feeling contingent on national borders, just argue for open borders and totally free movements of capital & goods. this would probably result in greater prosperity integrated over the whole human race, but somewhat less for the bottom 1/2 of americans who would probably converge somewhat to the relatively crappier lot of unskilled and semi-skilled workers in most of the world. the main argument against this would be if the american system just collapses if 100 million people move to the states in 10 years, removing the institutional framework driving wealth creation.

* this has varied over the course of american history. american protectionism was favored by much of industry until the 20th century (see the conflicts over tariffs in the 19th century). labor has traditionally wanted to keep immigrants out to make sure that their input is relatively scarce, while industry and capital would like to be plentiful.

A lot of H1 visa holders and especially the F1-H1 visa converters are fakers.

I know countless H1 visa holders who go for 2-3 month training in SAP, QA, business analysis, JAVA and then put 5 years experience on their resume.
NJ is full of these Indian consulting companies pay slave labor wages to these folks. For example, the normal rate for a business analyst is about $50hr-$60hr for a US citizen, but these H1's work for as little as $30hr on W2/Corp-Corp/1099.

razib@ 36: the main argument against this would be if the american system just collapses if 100 million people move to the states in years, removing the institutional framework driving wealth creation

interesting point. i foresee a different social scenario. most labor and manufacturing oriented industry cannot hire foreigners. most industries which cater to the govt and defense contracts (including national labs) have restrictions on employing foreigners and even if they do they will prob give preference to graduates from US univs. Now that leaves a very narrow segment of the wealth creating sector which includes IT, finance that will be able to hire foreign workers. If this sector is well streamlined by categorizing as suggested by ex-H1B@21 and also making green-card as the filter then you can significantly curtail work related immigration that can depress American wages.

65,000 is the cap per year

Extensions are not part of this cap, right? I'm almost embarrassed to reveal how many extensions I've had so far, my latest one just got renewed. And the extensions are valid for 3 years - which is the same duration as a 'new' H1-B.

most labor and manufacturing oriented industry cannot hire foreigners.

? this isn't true, is it? i mean if they move to the USA of course they can be hired! (granted as you note there are exceptions and preferences in gov. & defense sectors) what i'm trying to get at above is that there are two extreme positions in terms of protection vs. openness in capital & labor. what i get tired of sometimes are those who characterize people on the other side of the line that they create as "protectionist" or "open borders" or "globalist" when most people draw particular lines based on values & self-interest. IOW, there are many people who think 3 million legal immigrants coming into the USA per year is acceptable, but would balk at 30 million per year. similarly, there are those who are OK with credit card companies being based out of south dakota and delaware and charging south dakota and delaware rates, but who would object if the same legal policy on interests applied to companies which relocated outside of the united states with even looser usury laws than those states. those who take the extreme positions have it easy because they don't have to elaborate in detail their mix of policies because they don't want a mix. most people, but leave the mix unqualified and simply work with imprecise labels which serve more for rhetoric than illumination.

Let me make a reckless prediction. You will get the job. The new law has enough loopholes for Rush Limbaugh to drive through the hole driving Arnold's hybrid Hummer.

PAD .. I interviewed with a company for a management training / leadership program in a large NY based company right after my Masters. They were somewhat selective though not terribly so -- I got the position after a third round of interviews. In the interviews, they had promised sponsorship, etc. between the interviews, though, 9/11 occurred. The visa policies changed across the industry. They certainly wanted me -- the offer / joining date, etc came after 9/11 -- but I could not join because of the visa policy. Needless to say it hit my career rather hard.

At this point saving a few bucks off the compensation package is the last thing on the companies mind (and is probably illegal to boot). The problem is that the very same vagueness and loopholes you talked about actually work against the H1B, because it makes it easy for any Tom, Dick and Harry to sue the company. Even during layoffs most companies hire, but they run a higher risk of being sued by a employee they would have laid off anyway, when they hire H1s. If they had laid off the same person and instead hired a citizens (even if the alien was much better qualified). From the view of a large company it is often an unacceptable risk and they make blanket policies. Clear easily quantifiable guidelines, and less arbitrary rules are much better for a H1 B .

Rookie
I knew someone who was in the same boat as you. When the company found that they could not get a visa for him, they instead gave him a position in Japan , and said that they would try again in a year's time. You could explore the same possibility with your recruiters/ mentors -- this should give you a leg up in your career.

The legislation needs to be changed to allow SS and Medicare taxes to be refunded to H-1B workers.

Please do this. I'd campaign for you to become a Congressman. :-)

As a H1-B myself I can say that working in US is not a right. It is a privilege. It is Ok for the Americans to kick us out if they do not have enough jobs.

Indian graduates have had things easy, get a cheap government subsidised education in India, come to US for their grad. school with assistantships and directly get a job with good salary. With the H-B boom it is even better, you don't even need to take TOEFL / GRE etc. just have a few years of experience in an Indian company and come thru a consultant to the US and find a job.

Compare that with an American kid who (I guess) comes out with a 200,000$ student loan on his/her head and need to get a job and work on the job before he/she pays off the loans. If they buy a home (which almost every one does) they have to pay off their mortgages too.

Though it sounds unfair to kick H1-Bs out during a recession, I think it is reasonable.

This worker policy is also very similar to the protectionist trade policies we are seeing as of late - which only EXTENDED the Great Depression. Countries' GDP grows during times of trades; hence the U.S.' steady growth over a one hundred year period, and China and India's recent explosion.

And in terms of competitiveness, I saw a segment on Fareed Zakaria's show that included an interview with the Canadian PM expressed Canada's interest in RECRUITING foreign talent. I have heard Germany is implementing those policies as well, though I don't know if it has been cited extensively. Ultimately, our loss will be another country's gain. Way to blow it legislators.

If you can't tell, I am very frustrated w/ the Dems as of late, and I'm a registered Democrat!

Granted, 50% of the H1 are fake but still they are intelligent than most Americans (whites, blacks, browns - I'm including the ABCD people). I'm not in love with Obama, unlike the 90% of the people that come to this website, even though he is doing some really good things but things like these just show inexperience and short sightedness.
Most of the people that have lost their jobs were not competing with H1s. Most of these people were in sales/retail and they dont have jobs because they were leeches and once the hosts curbed their expenses, the leeches died. For example realtors, obviously you're not going to be making any money because you've piggy backed all life and now theres no piggy and now you want H1 people to go back to their country because obviously you, who did a psych would fit wonderfully well in the IT industry.
I'll be honest, I love this country, I've been here since I was 16, paid my way through school/university(which was 10k per semester for me while other people paid 1500) and almost 60% of all my memories are here but I cant handle stupidity and I wont be thinking twice to move from here, its just another country for me but before I do that, the 60, 70K i give in taxes every year, I want that back because I dont want to nurse this stupid generation here.
Why doesn't the whole first generation move back and see what happens here, shall we?
In a bad economy, what do you need, do you need people that are skilled and working and contributing or do you need to kick them out and maybe hope and all their jobs wont go away and as a result the economy doesnt tank even further.
I feel really weird pointing this out but it seems that the republicans are right, this country is looking more like Red China every passing day.

"Granted, 50% of the H1 are fake but still they are intelligent than most Americans..."

Superiority Complex Alert!
Please keep in mind that Nigerians are the most educated group of immigrants that come to the USA:

USCIS just announced that they are still accepting H-1B applications for the 2009 cycle.....last year it closed out on Day 1.

Is that because of Anti-Immigrant sentiments or just pure economic woes?

The bill is complete BS. as someone who is constantly looking for great engineers to hire, we still cannot find enough qualified applicants for the positions we have open.

That being said, it IS easier to hire domestically than it used to be, given the slowdown in the economy. That's reflected in the news out of the federal government this morning regarding this year's H-1B applications. In most years, the US CIS announces that they are accepting applications for H-1Bs, and they get overwhelmed by applications, and use a lottery system to decide who actually gets a visa. IN recent years, only 1/2 to a 2/3 of the eligible pool win the H-1B lottery. This year is different.

USCIS (the new INS) announced today that they are still accepting applications for both regular H-1B and advanced degree H-1Bs. That means that they haven't hit their quota yet. I can't remember the last time that happened.

...a problem with ABD protectionists claiming its not protectionism when it affects american workers is that hundreds of thousands of Indian and other developing world agricultural, retail and workers in numerous other sectors have been going through this same wrenching process of job loss and dislocation when multinational corporations entered their countries with their advanced technology and lobbying and graft, and disrupted huge sectors of indigenous economies...at the time they were smugly told by global corporates and native "liberalizers" that it was the price for the inevitable globalization,and to oppose it was retrogressive....I remember it was the communists in India who would fight these, but most of the press and upper middle classers would just parrot the line of liberalization and globalization....and then I see this massive reflexive protectionism in America to the relatively miniscule threat by H1Bs and cant help feeling that we (as in India and other developing countries who were so eager to hop on to the Clintonwagon of globalization)have been had....many of us who at the time who reflexively opposed the socialists would be sobered by this self-preserving and ultimately hypocritical reaction in the mother of captalist economies....arundhati roy was right all along!

USCIS (the new INS) announced today that they are still accepting applications for both regular H-1B and advanced degree H-1Bs. That means that they haven't hit their quota yet. I can't remember the last time that happened.

In 2006, the advanced degree h-1bs were open till July.

As a H1-B myself I can say that working in US is not a right. It is a privilege.

#43 Ponniyin Selvan makes a good point. I think some IBDs today see it as their birthright to emigrate to the US/Canada/Australia, which is not necessarily helpful to India (especially if those who want to immigrate received subsidized educations from IITs and whatnot), and also only serves as a temporary patch to labor shortages in the developed world.

In the US, we need structural change in the educational system, especially in economically depressed rural and urban environments, to start producing the engineers and doctors that the US labor market wants, rather than simply importing people. Taking the best from India/China/Russia ignores serious socio-economic and racial issues in the US that lead to failing schools and lack of highly-skilled workers (among other things).

many of us who at the time who reflexively opposed the socialists would be sobered by this self-preserving and ultimately hypocritical reaction in the mother of captalist economies

I know that economists tend to agree that all trade is good!!! But given their predictions or the lack of it over the last year or so - I dont necessarily accept their modelling.

In the US, we need structural change in the educational system, especially in economically depressed rural and urban environments, to start producing the engineers and doctors that the US labor market wants, rather than simply importing people. Taking the best from India/China/Russia ignores serious socio-economic and racial issues in the US that lead to failing schools and lack of highly-skilled workers (among other things).

I agree with this. I forsee this immigration turmoil engulfing the US university system in the near future which are not so holier than thou as compared to US industry as many people prob think. Most of the grunt work of teaching, grading, TA is done by grad students including adjunct profs at a pittance...In fact in one of the links posted in the comment above there are claims that -

This is also true with foreign students graduating from U.S. universities, who are hired as H-1B workers. A 1989 National Science Foundation position paper, written when Congress was debating creation of the H-1B program, actually advocated using the program to hold down Ph.D. salaries by flooding the job market with foreign students. The N.S.F. also forecast, correctly, that stagnant salaries would push domestic students away from Ph.D. study

Postdoc crisis
And note to add to this there is this huge postdoc system (many of whom are also on H1Bs ) with its own attendant problems begging the question as to why univs are churning out phds year after year when the job market cannot support them.

In the US, we need structural change in the educational system, especially in economically depressed rural and urban environments, to start producing the engineers and doctors that the US labor market wants, rather than simply importing people. Taking the best from India/China/Russia ignores serious socio-economic and racial issues in the US that lead to failing schools and lack of highly-skilled workers (among other things).

in a profession like medicine medical school admissions policies serve as a conscious limiting rate for new MDs. and theoretically in fields like engineering if you limited labor supply then wages should start going up, pulling more people into the labor pool. i'm not sure how much granting more college degrees will do on the margins here. engineering is a field which a relatively high dropout rate for those who begin freshmen year in it because many people simply can't hack the math & science, and these are people already going to college now.

Compare that with an American kid who (I guess) comes out with a 200,000$ student loan on his/her head and need to get a job and work on the job before he/she pays off the loans. If they buy a home (which almost every one does) they have to pay off their mortgages too.

the average student loan debt load is around $20,000 last i checked.

This worker policy is also very similar to the protectionist trade policies we are seeing as of late - which only EXTENDED the Great Depression. Countries' GDP grows during times of trades; hence the U.S.' steady growth over a one hundred year period, and China and India's recent explosion.

actually, probably not (though they didn't help). tariffs were already high before the smoot-hawley tariff act. and a much smaller % of the USA economy was trade exchange than today. see A Splendid Exchange: How Trade Shaped the World. also, immigration was cut-off in 1924, well before the great depression.

..and then I see this massive reflexive protectionism in America to the relatively miniscule threat by H1Bs and cant help feeling that we (as in India and other developing countries who were so eager to hop on to the Clintonwagon of globalization)have been had....many of us who at the time who reflexively opposed the socialists would be sobered by this self-preserving and ultimately hypocritical reaction in the mother of captalist economies....

different countries have different needs. a much higher % of the economy of the netherlands is involved in direct transactions with parties outside of the netherlands. south korea and japan grew on export based economies driven in part on american consumption. large countries depend less on trade than small countries and can probably weather de-globalization much more easily. there's internal comparative advantage in a nation like the USA, with 300 million people and a lot of land & resources. yes, western nations are hypocritical. people look out for their self-interest, principles for thee, what's good for me for me. that being said, there can still be an argument that for small countries the more trade the better, no matter what the other party does, right?

americans are spoiled. we demand a high consumption level and a high standard of living no matter the fact that for many the skills advantages might not warrant it in a flat world or level playing field. that being said there's a lot of sentiment in the USA that "our" workers should be cushioned and coddled even though the economic shock is going to be far less stressful than for societies where there isn't a safety net.

The dark side of Dubai.

I'm in total agreement with Ponniyin and Melbourne Desi. Almost all the H1's and L1's who came on H1/L1 I know are happy go lucky. They know that the companies are making money through them, and they are making money as well. And they are almost ready to pack bags and get home whenever they are booted out.

But it is a different story with people who did their Masters here. Not all come with assistantships and they accrue quite a lot of debt on their credit cards paying the fees. Not getting a job here is a big hit for them.

also, there is social science data that the "brain drain" isn't much of an issue today for big countries like india or china. H1Bs are probably almost always a net positive because of the networks they forge.

the average student loan debt load is around $20,000 last i checked

Thanks, that seems pretty low though.. what's the average tuition fees per year in America

My co-workers gave me that figure. Probably they went to private schools out of state and added all the boarding and lodging costs.

SKR at comment # 37 is right. So many H1B holders have fake, absolutely fraudulent resumes and thereby take jobs away from American born IT workers. The truly highly skilled foreign labor is needed but the jobs that many of these H1B holders do is something that unemployed American workers are able to do. It's all about the price of the labor. H1Bs will work for much less and that's all that matters to the business lobby that keeps insisting ever more H1Bs are necessary. It's not a matter of lack of workers.

My co-workers gave me that figure. Probably they went to private schools out of state and added all the boarding and lodging costs.

yes. 75% of bachelor's degrees are awarded from public universities, and a majority of those in state. but you wouldn't know that if you encountered people on wall street or silicon valley. also, those with professional school degrees (business school, law school and med school) have debt loads closer to what are talking about. here's a list of average tuition for public institutions by state. probably add 150% to that for board + expenses minimum.

here's a list of average tuition for public institutions by state. probably add 150% to that for board + expenses minimum.

Thanks, that's informative. That makes me think the anti H1-B crowd is probably from those ranks. :-)

Thanks, that's informative. That makes me think the anti H1-B crowd is probably from those ranks. :-)

superstar workers with mondo-human capital probably benefit from globalization, no matter whether it's capital or labor. they're already in a globalized labor pool no matter what. no, the people who are anxious are those whose skills can be easily substituted. they were lucky to be born americans and worry about a level playing field.

I'm here in the US on an H1B, and i know that my wage is comparable to what an american worker would get. Most of the IT workers that i know on H1's are also on comparable wages. It's a gross generalization to say that most H1Bs are fraudulently taking jobs away from american workers .

H1Bs are probably almost always a net positive because of the networks they forge.

I'm here in the US on an H1B, and i know that my wage is comparable to what an american worker would get.

Wasn't one of the sole reasons for passing the stimulus package to cut unemployment? In that case, I don't understand what is wrong having stipulations that make sure that corporations getting money from the government should hire permanent residents and citizens - this goes for bailout money as well....

I wouldn't worry too much though. I really think there are so many loopholes, that it won't matter. Ultimately, many positions are contracted out anyways, since major companies hate paying benefits. I think we're seeing a lot of questionable claims and outright fraud by various (mostly Indian) consulting firms. Like others, I've heard of some "consulting" firms basically churning out fake resumes and fake W2s as well. Of course the people are desperate to stay so they join these.

I do believe that the green card process has to be expedited. It's ridiculous how long it takes to get it. My cousin has been in line for one, for 6+ years. Start expediting the process, bring down unemployment, and then worry about raising the cap.

Few H1Bs are 'real' engineers. Most are your average B.Sc/ B.Com types, who do a course or two in Java (or the software flavor of the month), pad their resumes with fake experience, and hop on the H1B bus. And we call this the 'high tech' industry. This program has been heavily misused, and honestly, there is a lot of blame to go around.
The natives have stopped coming to the 'high tech' industry for mostly another reason. Career growth prospects are horrible, since the upper rungs of most IS/IT organizations are staffed with MBA generalists, who look down upon the 'nerds'. Again, software is the only 'tech' field that has exhibits this strange pattern. (You typically don't see generalists heading up finance, microbiology, accounting or chemical engineering departments).

.razib, I agree that H1Bs are a positive for the suppliers eg India /China but for the USA - very doubtful. USA does not need more immigrants - legal or otherwise. 300M is big enough for a sustainable economy. Australia /NZ on the other hand need more - way more. If the USA shuts down trade, who is the biggest loser? Certinaly not USA. Countries like Singapore / Australia / Sweden suffer way more than the USA.

the part about india and china, and australia & nz, are totally agree with. otoh, the part about the USA is more dicey IMO. in the short term you are totally correct, and in fact, by a broad definition of sustainable the US doesn't need any immigration. the US has very little immigration proportional to its population between 1924-1965. it's an empire unto itself. otoh, what about beyond the bounds of sustainability and toward economic growth? i believe that economic productivity growth is driven by innovation, and that innovation arises from individuals with a unique combination of skills as well as luck. specifically, i'm talking about people with technical skills. on the margin i don't think that thousands of HB1s are necessary to sustain the US economy, but over the long term i believe that once they get naturalized one can make the case that a subset of these are likely to be entrepreneurs and innovators, and i tend to favor that.

There is one thing I dont understand, probably as I am in India. If a lot of the H1-Bs have fake experience on their resume, how are they getting jobs in the first place? Dont the american companies that employ them have any screening standards or interviews in the first place. I find it hard to believe that people with fake experiences (implying that they are not qualified or competent) can secure jobs so easily? Or is it that the American employer is willing to sacrifice quality to save some bucks?
Here in India to get a somewhat decent job, we have to go through so many rounds of interviews, written tests (Technical/non technical), group discussions etc. Any half decent interviewer can sniff out a fake resume a mile away.

Why all this hate on people who have so called "fraudulent" resumes as opposed to those who hire them. And if they are hired that means they are qualified for the job. I find it hard to believe that employers will hire incompetent people to save money, unless the people are competent and deliver good quality work but are willing to work for less money.

i believe that economic productivity growth is driven by innovation, and that innovation arises from individuals with a unique combination of skills as well as luck.

Dont the american companies that employ them have any screening standards or interviews in the first place.

people are competent and deliver good quality work but are willing to work for less money

Immigrants are not the sole owners of these skills - in fact there is a significant socilization cost before an immigrant becomes productive.

i agree. the point though is that it increases the sample space of possible innovators. IOW, i don't think there are a finite # of slots for innovators which a population of 300 mil can fulfill, but a number which is undefined and proportional to population size and character (i.e., i think innovators have a particular intellectual & personality profile). additionally, i also think that the institutional framework of the united states is more optimized for 'unleashing' human capital than in many nations. but as i said above, i do not think innovation is necessary for a sustainable affluent society. at least the current levels of innovation which increase productivity and wealth (there will necessarily have to be constant innovation in fields like antibiotics to maintain current levels of public health because microbes evolve).

After 60 years of "independence" desis remain at the bottom of the global hierarchy desperately lining up for jobs in other countries, like the H1Bs. Though the H1Bs are treated far better than the desi slaves in arabia:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html

"They have been in Dubai for 20 years, and they are happy to explain how the city works. "You've got a hierarchy, haven't you?" Ann says. "It's the Emiratis at the top, then I'd say the British and other Westerners. Then I suppose it's the Filipinos, because they've got a bit more brains than the Indians. Then at the bottom you've got the Indians and all them lot."

By the way I am guessing that the motivation for changing the name Bombay to Mumbai was to make it sound like the glittering slave-built city-state of Dubai.

Doesn't the 300M population pool has a large percent of people in the 65+ range?

Melbourne Desi,

I only mentioned the comparable wage as there seems to be a view that we're on a way lower salary than an American with comparable experience. (I wasn't 'shipped' over from India either, not all desi H1Bs come from South Asia !)

I'm not sure why you think its easier for H1Bs to up sticks and leave. A lot of people have homes they would have to sell, kids in schools etc. A lot of Americans work abroad as well, and I knew a quite a few in my home town before i came to the US. I guess a lot of other countries will probably follow similar protectionist policies and those Americans overseas may have to return .

There are valid points in looking to safeguard jobs for Americans in the current economy, but unfortunately a lot of the rhetoric in the anti-h1b campaigns does tend to have a racist element to it, especially where they generalise that we're all a bunch of frauds living on slave wages and 'stealing' jobs .

I don't see immigration to the US as some sort of 'right', however the system could do with being overhauled and simplified.

I'm not sure why you think its easier for H1Bs to up sticks and leave.

however the system could do with being overhauled and simplified

coz heaps of H1Bs have done so especially if you are from one of the outsourcing firms - I was one of them too.

True, there are nice parts about moving from place to place - interesting experiences, getting to dab in different cultures lifestyles etc. But not having a stable place to live takes a toll in many ways. H1s might think it is a worthwhile trade-off, but the remember, others have the same options as well, and usually with less restrictions. And as time goes by, the trade-offs become less worthwhile.

Also, TCS, Infy, Wipro, etc offer a social net, which mitigates some of the sting from moving from place to place. This is not true for all H1s. For someone who has a H-1 from a US employer, layoffs are much more painful. They often have made longer term plans, in some cases they could be in the queue for a GC, etc and moving back takes a much larger toll.

vast majority of the H1B's and L1s dont have unique skills and bring no benefit to the USA

Melbourne Desi,

Reading a few of your comments initially, I guessed it right - you are another former B1/L1/H1 holder from an outsourcing firm who recently got his GC, and thus suddenly felt it was right to protect American (read 'resident') workers from the slave workers from another country :)

Well, we all don't come from India/China (not that there is anything wrong with it), and we are not necessarily sponsored by some outsourcing firm. A lot of us paid for education here, and have been employed by local companies. We might also have long term plan to settle down here and have family. It's a much more painful process for those of us who made a life here to suddenly pack our bags and leave. We are also taxpayers who don't receive much benefit from the tax.

Blaming H1 holders for depressing the salary takes away attention from the real causes - 1. H1 holders are tied to work for only sponsoring company - enabling the company offer a salary lower than what he/she would otherwise command in an open market, or rather preventing him/her to seek out the best opportunity available; 2. allowing companies to contract out the positions/projects to outsourcing companies who could, in turn, have foreign workers do it at a lower cost either in their home countries or have some temporary workers come down to complete it.

One more thing I would like to add here: everyone likes to point out the unemployment rate at 8.5% in the US currently. Has anyone ever looked at the break down of this rate by academic qualification? Like, say the rate for college grads VS peopel who didn't go to college? Interesting indeed!

I am probably too ideological/"un-nuanced" on this issue, but IMHO, the more H1B's/skilled immigrants we get in the US, the better! And not much more to be said on the topic, other than to oppose those whose fight against it.

I do favor limits (not zero!) on unskilled immigrants/illegal immigrants, though--we are not living in libertarian world, and they impose real costs on us--see, e.g., the work of Cuban-born Harvard professor George Borjas.

Has anyone else noticed that Rajiv, Another H1B, and other H1B/L1 commenters go out of their way to mention they are NOT from desiland?

thus suddenly felt it was right to protect American (read 'resident') workers from the slave workers from another country (desiland?)

Well, we all don't come from India/China (not that there is anything wrong with it), and we are not necessarily sponsored by some outsourcing firm. A lot of us paid for education here, and have been employed by local companies

Aree yaar you are from desiland (not that there is anything wrong with it):

Has anyone ever looked at the break down of this rate by academic qualification?

Good Sir, did you pass out with 95% marks in electronics and communication eng. from Pune college of engineering and then completed master's in double EE from Kalamazoo? FT ranked Pune college of engineering in top 100 in world and Kalamazoo in top 10 master's engineering program.

I agree with #52:

In the US, we need structural change in the educational system, especially in economically depressed rural and urban environments, to start producing the engineers and doctors that the US labor market wants, rather than simply importing people. Taking the best from India/China/Russia ignores serious socio-economic and racial issues in the US that lead to failing schools and lack of highly-skilled workers (among other things).

Long-term its in the best interest of the U.S. to produce more scientists, doctors and engineers to compete with China/Russia and other emerging economies.

In the US, we need structural change in the educational system, especially in economically depressed rural and urban environments, to start producing the engineers and doctors that the US labor market wants, rather than simply importing people. Taking the best from India/China/Russia ignores

Wow, there are some pretty big assumptions built into that model, like the "untrustworthyness" of the "immigrant" student. Why wouldn't the most successful country take the talent where it finds it, wherever on the globe? Unless they're a "threat"??

I fully support H1B's/L1s for hot/sexy/cute fob girls ;). I don't know how much value-added they could add to a company and U.S. economy; but I would fully lobby my local congressman/senator for validating H1B's/L1's from desiland based on aryan features and light skin.

I would fully lobby my local congressman/senator for validating H1B's/L1's from desiland based on aryan features and light skin.

OK, I hate you--let me guess--you're Punjabi??

HinduMan:

You went out of your way to wear your religion on ID - all the while trying to mock others for writing down an assumption on country of origin? Nice try! I may or may not be a desi from desiland - I don't see how that matters. It does matter, however, when someone suggests that one can just live here for 5+ years, and then on a sudden notice, pack his/her bag and leave - as if it didn't matter at all. I am just another H1B holder who is made a scapegoat due to the flaws in current system. That's all.

Also, your point on the role of academic qualification in terms of unemployment rate as a reply to my comment is lame at best. Have you even understood what I was trying to say? I never made any comment on desi engineering institutions specifically.

I think I have mentioned this before. Anyways, there are many types of H1Bs. The important ones are

1: The students who come to the US for undergrad / grad school, complete their degrees, get an OPT to work for a year (which has been increased to 2 years last year) and then move on to H1B

2: Indian / non-US companies get projects in the US and bring their employees on H1 visas to do the work. Of late, due to the anti H1 propaganda they have started using more L1s to do the same.

3. Consultants (who are also called as "bodyshoppers" in Indian slang) who get small time jobs (or do sub contracting work) from big contractors who bring H1s from mostly India.

In categories 1 and 2 there are lesser chances of fraud. It is category 3 where there is a higher risk or possibility of fraud. People indulge in fraudulent resumes and fake job offers etc. This is not to say anyone who gets into US thru category 3 has used fraudulent means.

Now, H1 is a temporary visa and anyone who is on that category should ideally not plan long term things like buying a million dollar home / boat etc. So you can't blame the American government for any decisions you have made :-)

Getting a green card is a messed up process with country specific quotas and stuff. It takes many years and will seem like eternity. I understand that it is tough but that isn't that what the H1Bs signed up for. Again I emphasise that working in the US is a privilege and not a right.

haven;t been keeping up with the h1-b focused coments, but in general, i find this protectionism concept in american political discourse a bit disconcerting. first off, one thing i have noticed in the recession is this continued champion of the open/capitalistic markets while simultaneously expecting subsidies and the such. not that i am so pro-capitalism (i tend to lean towards socialism) but the fake rhetoric is frustrating and arguably, capitalism has not worked (or, maybe the better argument is that capitalism was never totally allowed to work because in the end, companies knew there would be help from the government and acted accordingly). secondly, this protectionism always comes with a sense of racism and xenophobia, which at this point in time, only adds to that which we have been experiencing post 9/11. further, as the comments here suggest, the economic reality of these policies seems not to be in sync with their objectives/rhetoric, and a lot of the same issues with the anti-outsourcing arguments come to mind - i.e. focusing on individual employees vs focusing on the cost-cutting that will keep the companies in business and benefit the economy in whole and, hopefully, eventually create more jobs in america itself.

I don't see immigration to the US as some sort of 'right', however the system could do with being overhauled and simplified.

Reading a few of your comments initially, I guessed it right - you are another former B1/L1/H1 holder from an outsourcing firm who recently got his GC, and thus suddenly felt it was right to protect American (read 'resident') workers from the slave workers from another country

And how old were you at the time? And how did your wife feel about it? And your kids?

but IMHO, the more H1B's/skilled immigrants we get in the US, the better!

Lesser US money spent on training, the supplement the ageing population are two reasons I can think of.

If I'm to understand some of the posters in this thread the US badly needs Indian engineers because Americans are incompetent, fat and stupid.

Yet many of these same posters clearly want to be here because they're paid more here than they would be paid in India (or have more rights, better schools, education, cleaner water etc.).

So why not go back to India and make it a better place so millions of Desis don't need to go overseas to find work?

If I'm to understand some of the posters in this thread the US badly needs Indian engineers because Americans are incompetent, fat and stupid.

I searched if anyone typed "fat" in this comments section. the first hit I get is from your comment.

I think there should be a cap on American evangelists trolling the backstreets of the developing world.
I find it very ironic that for all the values about freedom that America trumpets, we get as desperate as the annybody else when times are tough and look for scapegoats. I guess 65k well dressed, mostly well behaved folks are a much better target than an amorphous blob of 12million. Its like the mortgage mess - we'll go after the guy who owes 100k on his home but we won;t do anything tangible about the banks because no one can even define the problem.

I find it very ironic that for all the values about freedom that America trumpets, we get as desperate as the annybody else when times are tough and look for scapegoats.

I think there should be a cap on American evangelists trolling the backstreets of the developing world.>>>

Razib (#59), that link about Dubai was chilling.

>> I don't see immigration to the US as some sort of 'right'

Labor cannot be equated with goods and capital but third-world countries can argue that if they have to buy our boeings, pepsi, and potato chips then they need opportunities to make money (in this case H1Bs) besides selling agricultural products and textiles which anyways have to compete against huge subsidies of US mechanized farms. on this count i am on the side of the arundhati roys of communists of kerala and bengal...right metric would be to look at balance of trade.

reg. the argument of innovation in some of the comments...i concur with razib on this. not everybody even an MIT graduate can be an innovator..out of a constant supply of people and in the right conditions people innovate...... Any R&D lab/industry too has a fixed number of people who are in the business of creating new products...the rest is abt testing, producing, marketing and business and support for which one needn't be a genius (EB1) but just hard-working professionals (EB2, EB3) who can prob produce the occasional sparks. now if the economic conditions are not right this constant supply of people which were needed for the "pool" becomes an economic burden.....

In fact any ambitious nation (like China and India) can cross the US on the wrong path on these issues so the best for US would be to diversify to other smaller countries..invest in their educational system and make them a supply temp pool of innovators. This will be good for the entire world.

they need opportunities to make money (in this case H1Bs)

The service equivalent of free trade manufactured goods would be outsourcing, not immigration.

I think there should be a cap on American evangelists trolling the backstreets of the developing world.

That's already been talked about for years now in India....

'i believe that economic productivity growth is driven by innovation, and that innovation arises from individuals with a unique combination of skills as well as luck. specifically, i'm talking about people with technical skills. on the margin i don't think that thousands of HB1s are necessary to sustain the US economy, but over the long term i believe that once they get naturalized one can make the case that a subset of these are likely to be entrepreneurs and innovators, and i tend to favor that."

America is suffering from the innovation of wall street financial geniuses. In America free trade boils down to China selling junk products to the american masses for dollars and wall street selling junk financial products to the chinese, japanese and europeans for american dollars.

America is suffering from the innovation of wall street financial geniuses. In America free trade boils down to China selling junk products to the american masses for dollars and wall street selling junk financial products to the chinese, japanese and europeans for american dollars.

he..he.. I burst out laughing.. :-)

It's strange that nobody talks about 50000 diversity lottery immigrant visas issued every year to people with a high school degree (or higher academic qualification). So, it's alright to bring in an additional 50000 individuals who could take jobs/resources from locals, but everyone is up against 65000 H1B holders most of whom have a graduate degree - some from US institutions, and went through a naturalization process?
And, what about the L1 visas that companies use? Isn't it depressing salary? Situation here won't improve unless there is a complete restructuring of immigration process. Most Americans follow the buzzwords to argue about it, but you can see in each and every forum (not this forum, ofcourse) how they are unaware of the details or other aspects of it.

Melbourne Desi:
Thanks for explaining your case; either way, you are not affected by the process now. So, well.......:)

either way, you are not affected by the process now.

This is also my pitch for H1Bs to move to Australia :) - much better deal and you get a GC-PR in about 12-18 months and a citizen in 4 years after GC.

Sounds good for now. But remember this, in a post apocalyptic world, while you are getting eaten up by wild, rabid boomerang wielding dogs, driven mad by watching too many films starring Mel Gibson, we will be laughing our hearts out from the safe, secure environs of Guantanamo Bay.
Karma is a mean female dingo. .. oh yeah.

Please forgive my grammar and bad English:

I came to this country on a H1.. do I think the H1 visa's should be eliminated/reduced? Yep! with out doubt.. till this recession passes.

This isn't about innovation or capability or free trade.. this also isn't about Indians being geniuses and Americans being lazy...this is about cheap labor - period.
(If Americans were lazy.. this would not be the country we're all trying to immigrate to, wake up guys.. no nationality has monopoly on brains)

Also.. this is the US folks.. they have every right to protect their economy and jobs for Americans (Not that Corp America will ever let that happen).
How would you feel if all of Bangladesh/Pakistan/Nepal and Burma swamped our country and took our IT jobs for a thousand rupees..we'd have no where to go to.

There is also a real discrepancy is living standards and expectations.. we can't explain that away by arguing "free trade" and other such bull crap.
I regularly run into four of our country men packed into 2 bed apartments, sleeping on the floor and eating rice 3 times a day(nothing wrong with that). The expectation here is very low.. will code for peanuts.. coz the $ translate into huge Rs. If you don't believe it coz you shop at GAP and Old Navy.. and "give" money back to the economy.. remember you are taking it first.

The H1b program now is "really" used to bring in cheap labor, if you can't wrap your mind around that you should return to India.. I doubt you're the kind they intended to bring in the first place. Cheap labor undermines wages and results in job losses of native born Americans... it's pretty straight forward and simple... I've seen it happen quite a few times. Actually - I was laid off a couple of times because someone on a H1 was willing to do my job for 15k less. I had to find another position.. move, lost income for a few months.. fun stuff.
Like I said, this is about cheap labor and in some sense a race to the bottom.

You can't talk supply - demand.. People have emotions and needs and have to pay bills. Widgets don't care if they are sold for a million or a cent.
Well, if you still must.. then do consider.. you are creating an imbalance in the system by pumping up supply. This isn't organic or planned.. it's mostly chaotic and very unorganized. It will upset and break a lot of other sub systems. Nothing about the H1b program is organic.

Business will hire the one willing to work for less.. period!
Where you create an "artificial" supply of workers willing to work for less.. Slowly but surely.. wages will adjust downwards till native born Americans can't compete. I've seen this happen time and again.. all that noise we're hearing is them complaining about it.

This also wrecks the school / college system and undermines native capability, few native born Americans are taking up CS courses. The US already lost Manufacturing (Auto, steel etc) and if it continues down this path.. It'll lose IT too.

The H1b workers are a temporary and artificial supply. They are not a product of this economy, but from outside the system. They have no skin in the game.. .their start up/setup costs are virtually nil. The Govt back home subsidizes our education and pretty much everything else.

When you pay an arm and a leg to put your self through (here)college and run up a huge debts for housing and putting your kids through college and sustaining a life style here in the US.. it'll hit home. You can argue till your face is blue and say all sorts of smart things.. but the Americans are getting shafted... no doubt about it.

The bottom line is that this is their country. An accident of fate. We (indians) don't have a God given right to H1b visas (and to work here) nor some magical right to residence /citizenship in the US.

If you are annoyed by protectionism in the US, just read the manifest destiny-esque tone of our H1b debate. It's ridiculous.

In the end.. it's not about us.. it's about Corp America and it's thirst for cheap labor.
If Corp America can find a half dead monkey to code Java or Sql for a buck fifty tomorrow.. you betcha they'll have a visa category for it.
The Democrats and Republicans will do what ever Corp America tells them they need to stay competitive.
So relax..the H1b program is here to stay... but we're not god's gift to the US economy (all my friends are convinced we are)... and we didn't build this economy either (try telling my friends)

Some Number:
Current H1b population : 65k(every year) * 6 (validity period) = 390,0000
Add the F1's and other's exempt for quota.
Add they L1's
My estimate is there are well over half a million in the US economy, 80% of these in IT.

Now compare against the total IT work force (not as some clever ppl here compared it to the total US work force).. the numbers are pretty telling.

I'd say that's about 25% to 30% of the IT US workforce is on H1b or some sort of temporary visa.
I've worked in places that have over 75% h1b's in their IT department..so don't bother trying to throw a 2% at me.

If you still think "temporary" workers are not displacing locals you are smoking something really weird dude.

My suggestion would be to not eliminate H1b visas.. but to Tax companies (not the employees) that bring in H1b visas up to about 50% of salary on top of all applicable salaries. A sort of H1 tax. The Govt can use these funds to re-train Americans displaced by the H1 program. This will also reduce the intake of H1's only to the really really deserving and really really needed. Not like now.. where the bulk of H1's are used to drive down implementation cost while perfectly qualified US citizens are told they are too expensive or that they don't qualify.
You'll also then find.. all of a sudden Bill Gates say that all the Geniuses he'll ever need are born here in the US.. there must be something in the water in America that produces the best coders in the world.

If Corp America can find a half dead monkey to code Java or Sql for a buck fifty tomorrow.. you betcha they'll have a visa category for it.

If you still think "temporary" workers are not displacing locals you are smoking something really weird dude.

Responding to a specific point that Ramesh (#112) made:
There is also a real discrepancy is living standards and expectations.. we can't explain that away by arguing "free trade" and other such bull crap.
I regularly run into four of our country men packed into 2 bed apartments, sleeping on the floor and eating rice 3 times a day(nothing wrong with that). The expectation here is very low.. will code for peanuts.. coz the $ translate into huge Rs. If you don't believe it coz you shop at GAP and Old Navy.. and "give" money back to the economy.. remember you are taking it first.

I find that somewhat unfair. Yes, there is a definite difference of living standards between India and the US. But this is how everyone starts out. I lived with 3 other people in a 2-bed apt. for the 1st 2 years of my grad school, simply because anything better was unaffordable on a grad student stipend (which was equal to what every American student was also paid). Having saved up, we all then moved to more spacious quarters. Isn't that how people should start out in any set of circumstances? Live frugally, save, get re-oriented in a new place and a new culture, and then get on with life? I'm curious how many of these people you observed still lived in packed houses after years of stay in this country. It's most likely a 1st 2 years phenomenon. I would rather people live this way than be fiscally irresponsible like all the people who bought unaffordable houses just so they could keep up with the Joneses.

@114 · Rama

You miss the point.. let me explain.. by stretching the example to the extreame..

Why not pack 16 in a 2 bed appartment.. more frugal eh? Save more eh? Don't buy houses.. rent forever.. even better eh? Not really.. your idea - if that, is suited for a temporary worker with an end game... not for a native who has roots here and this is his one and only game.

My point:
Americans are "forced" to accumulate debt (bcoz they live in this economy - for education and life style reasons etc) and then forced to compete with a foreign work force that has no debt and is willing to live in sub par living conditions and undercut wages to gain employment. Even with discounted wages the foreign work force saves because the savings translate into huge savings in the native country and obviousely - they don't have the over heads the natives have.

The foreign work force has the option of returning to the home country.. mean while the native is left high and dry. The native has no where to go.

Making two very different work forces compete for the same wages is patently unfair..

How would you feel say if India offers 65k visas annually for IT and say martians who live on bread and water, pack 20 in a card board shanty arrive in huge numbers.. would you be able to compete with them? I bet you'd be singing a different tune.

To stretch this further.. let me give you my last experience.. "Bob" at 45 was laid off from a 105k job so "Suresh" at 27 could be hired 70k. You can slice this any way you want.. but Bob was laid off because Suresh was willing to work for 70k. Bob has a mortgage and 2 kids ready to go to college. Suresh is 27, still single and arrived from India 3 years ago.
Bob is declaring bankruptcy. Suresh is saving for a flat in Bangalore.

You can argue that Bob needs to re-train or go back to school or man up or any such crap.. but the plain truth is that the industry found cheaper labor and hired it.
Bob got shafted.
The industry will continue to do so as long as they can. It's up to the Congress to legislate changes so Americans are protected from American companies that are addicted to cheap labor.
Instead of focusing on productivity and innovation.. the industry is focused on getting cheap labor.. this is an unhealthy and unsustainable situation.

PS: I've have quite a few folks on H1b who bought houses at the top.. pretty silly.. but that's not the debate.

but IMHO, the more H1B's/skilled immigrants we get in the US, the better!

may i ask why ? would like to know how you arrived at your position

Melbourne desi,
Sure--my thought goes as follows--suppose native-born population of the US is something like .6X in skilled positions, .4X in unskilled positions. If you can increase the population of skilled workers (as via H1B) then your ratio of skilled to unskilled improves from 1.5 to 1 to something higher--given that, the "drag" of the unskilled is reduced, so overall welfare should improve. This is, I take it, why life is more pleasant in Santa Monica, CA than in Alabama. . . . ratio of skilled to unskilled is higher in the former. . . . maybe I'm missing something, but that is why I think the way I do.

And the easiest group to pick on politically in recent years, by both Republicans and Democrats, has been immigrants, since they can’t vote anyway.

It was not that long ago in the town of Springfield, where Mayor Quimby made immigrants the scapegoat after his bear tax did not go over well with the locals. Despite the fact his plan to stop the bear attacks worked, the 5 dollar tax hike was too much, so the immigrants were blamed. A very sad story.

Ramesh (#116):
You miss the point.. let me explain.. by stretching the example to the extreame..

Why not pack 16 in a 2 bed appartment.. more frugal eh? Save more eh? Don't buy houses.. rent forever.. even better eh? Not really.. your idea - if that, is suited for a temporary worker with an end game... not for a native who has roots here and this is his one and only game.

I get the point you are making above, and in your entire posting, that settled Americans cannot compete with young, single people from abroad who are comfortable with a lower standard of living. But your arguments are unconvincing for a number of reasons.
I was emphasizing the fact that living more frugally than the average American is a temporary condition for a large number of people on work visas, and they soon adjust to the American lifestyle (I don't have any statistics to back up my claim, but neither do you present any to show that a large majority of people on work permits live in sweatshop-like conditions). Also, in my experience, most American students (unless they have really wealthy parents) tend to live as frugally as Indian students.
I also disagree that the threat to your metaphorical "Bob" comes from people like Suresh. Substitute Joe (a US citizen freshly graduated from college) for Suresh, and Bob still cannot compete. Also, I am not convinced that companies are laying off experienced "Bobs" for rookie "Sureshs" by the thousands just to pinch pennies. Such companies will soon go down the drain. You also fail to present a direct causal link between the laying off of Bob and the hiring of Suresh (now all anti-H1b and anti-immigrant people make this claim, but if you have solid numbers to back this up, I would love to see them). As I see it, Suresh and Joe are competing, not Suresh and Bob.

The kind of layoffs you are talking about happened with more frequency back in the dot-com boom. The main reason (as I see it) was that the software industry was just taking off, and the skills necessary for software development were becoming commoditized to an extent they had not before. Older people with niche experience in old technology (having learnt their skills at a time when most people hadn't heard of computers) were beign phased out because their knowledge was not as necessary to the development of Internet-based applications that were all the craze. I don't see that happening today. The negative effect those layoffs was that it scared off a generation of native students from even entering these fields and going on to grad school (the CS graduate program in my school, one of the top ones in the country, had ~75% foreign enrollment). If companies go to any campus today with the intention of selecting only citizens, they simply won't be able to fill their positions. And the H1 applications today increasingly come for workers who graduated from US universities.

I am simply making an economic argument here. I understand that you are making more of an emotional argument, and I completely get it. Unfortunately, that is how industries (and capitalism) work.

Hey Ramesh, Shut that door tight man, the same door you entered through. Make sure no one enters here after you, good job buddy, now you are one of us, hell with those outsiders getting screwed !

There are 2 issues here, one is getting more people in from outside the country (which it can be argued is not needed at this moment).
Second is the treatment of the people who are already here for years and years. These are the people who either did their grad schooling here or came here via other means but one way or another made this place their home. They invested years and years here, piad taxes, paid SS. Most of the people lived a life of a model citizen(alien). These guys, who BTW were welcomed with open arms in good times(because all citizens were busy making money in other lucrative options like mortgage broker or real estate agents), made a life here, put down their roots. There was always a niggling fear that if you lose a job, you have to sell your car, your house, pack your bags and go back to home with your kids. But that will not happen, they were always told. It can never get that bad. Dont worry, wait for 10 years, give the best time of your life to this country and one day you will get a green card and then you can start a business the way you always wanted, in the meantime, I want this code done by monday morning.
Now suddenly, because of the shenanigans of a few and greed of quite a few and reckless spending of everyone except a few, these guys are without a job or will be without a job soon. In the meantime, everyone looks at them like they are some kind of crooks, the hate on some peoples faces just oozes out.

Time to pack and go to a place where everything has changed, they have changed, their best years are half gone. Its back to starting all over again, minus the youthful optimism.
Sometimes, changing town invoulantirily can be quite a nightmare, so imagine how changing country invoulantarily might feel.

Sorry for the rambling, but just wanted to represent someone who never gets represented.

@Ramesh: your example of 45 year old Bob doesn't work. This is because Bob making 105K will be replaced by a 27 year old American, if there were no H1B's, making 70K. If Bob hasn't moved up in the value chain by 45, that 105K paid to him is too much. Thats the reason why in layoffs such positions are the first to be eliminated.

H1B is a valuable program but abused like any other. Remember, IIT rank #1 with a PhD from a leading university here, will join the workforce too as a H1B. Everyone can agree that losing this person is not in America's best interest. On the other hand, I know of cases where 4 consultants are packed in a 1 BR apartment with just grocery money given to them. That is clearly an abuse which authorities need to crackdown on.

As others have pointed out too, the huge green card wait is a major problem with H1B program. If you are stuck in your job due to the GC wait, that clearly is distorting the salary market because you agree to a lower wage in exchange for the wait for the GC.

Its a complicated situation. If you put lots of regulations and checks in the H1B visa issuing process, H1 processing will take forever to clear the checks. That'll clearly dissuade companies from using these visa. Further, H1B and outsourcing will go hand in hand. Even if you eliminate the H1B program, the jobs will simply be shipped offshore.

The economy can be fixed if the US gov stops starting wars in foreign lands, the US people stop eating out and start making low budget vegetarian cuisine at home, and people stop paying for cable and wearing makeup or buying expensive cellulite vanishing creams and cars.

Offshoring is often combined with outsoucing. In IT, outsourcing companies hire a lot of H1s. And yes H-1B visa are often abused. BUT they are 3 different, distinct concepts here. I am shocked that even here people keep mixing up the three concepts, given the large number of H1s here. So here's a quick note:

H1-B visa
The visa is used to bring skilled people into a company. This always costs a company more upfront than hiring a citizen. probably by upto 10 K. (Application fees, lawyers fees,mandatory notices, mandatory interviews, etc). In the long term, things get more complicated.

Ramesh .. if you lost a job to a H1, hired by the company, for a 15 K difference, its highly unlikely that money was behind the decision.
In addition to upfront costs, there are huge costs to projects beyond just wages, when switching resources (cost of the learning curve, impact to the timelines, lost knowledge, etc)

Outsourcing
Outsourcing is subcontracting a process to a third party. This is usually a good thing. Companies can then focus on their core business. When a company tries to do everything in a process, it almost always falls behind in various places over time. Outsourcing needs to be managed well, and a variety of factors need to be taken into account before outsourcing, (reliability, criticality, competetive advantages to current processes). The impact of this on wages is uncertain. For example, IBM used to maintain big iron mainframes for other compaines (outsourcing), and IBM paid well. People with valuable skills get much more, while people who have routine skills get less. And the skills' value change over time.

Off shoring
Work is done in a different location offsite. This directly lowers the wages of the people who used to do this job in the original location.
Overall though it it might be a boon to the the original location. For example if ebay's costs are low due to outsourcing, Hundreds of thousands of people (millions?) of people are able to afford to open country wide stores at a low cost.
Plus today multinational companies make a ton of money outside US and bring it into America. Offshoring helps them establish a presence in those countries.
Global Trade has been good for America. For decades America inc has been making out like bandits overseas, and we are slowly seeing a semblance of a return to balance.

Losing core competencies to offshoring is bad. We have seen what happened in vaious electronics sectors and then the auto industry. But It needs a lot of thought to decide what needs to be retained and planning and implementation to ensure that this occurs. Of course to scapegoat H1Bs is much simpler.

I agree with Ramesh 100%. Just because he came through an H1B does not mean he cannot have an objective view of the situation. Why should a country with rising unemployment have a program to import foreign labor. Yes, we need the few IIT types and the 65.000 number will more than accommodate for that if you eliminate the bum rush from the IT body shops which imports mediocre (at best) talent.
Most desis have their heads in the sand about the H1B issue. H1Bs are not the birthright of desis. It is (has to be) a need based program for the benefit of the United States and not meant to serve as an immigration channel. What part of temporary worker in the H1B don't you understand? I am sure you will all cry foul about implicit promises - but how can the US be responsible for an assumed promise - namely the Green Card? And stop preaching about what the US should and should not do - please be honest and realize that we couldn't hack it in India and had to move out.

Comments earlier suggested having this argument on sites and blogs that are anti-H1B where the affected American workforce voices its opinion - small wonder you guys don't give your highfalutin opinions there. Because you know your argument is hollow in front of the real Bobs on those sites that lost their jobs to H1Bs and outsourcing.

Correction: Because you know your argument is hollow in front of the real Bobs on those sites that lost their jobs to H1Bs and outsourcing.

Correction: Because you know your argument is hollow in front of the real Bobs on those sites that lost their jobs to H1Bs and offshoring.
Now I've lost all credibility :-)

H1-B visa
The visa is used to bring skilled people into a company. This always costs a company more upfront than hiring a citizen. probably by upto 10 K. (Application fees, lawyers fees,mandatory notices, mandatory interviews, etc).

False. If lawyer fees are eliminated (This is not hard to do. It doesn't take much time to fill out an H-1B application. I know because I did it for myself), the H-1B costs $1500 (without expedited processing, in 2006). There are no mandatory notices or interviews to be conducted (unless the company is H-1B dependent, ie has more than X% of its employees on H-1B. I don't remember what X is; I think it's 15).

I don't believe temporary workers should be sent back, that would have catastrophic effect on the current employers and the economy.
Indeed they should be allowed an easier path to permanent residentship and citizenship. It really isn't their fault that they are here.

I think the issuance of *new* H1b visas in the current economic condition is absurd.
Here's something in the papers today:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/Only-42000-H-1B-petitions-in-1-week/articleshow/4385677.cms

H1b visas were instituted to suppliment the native work force.
My argument is they have been used to replace the native work force for some years years now.
They've also been used to drive down wages... to a point where it's having deep professional and personal consequences for the natives.

Please bear in mind, for the sake of debate, I'm recounting my negative experiences with h1b's, there are positive experiences too.
People will raise to meet expectations.. I've seen that a lot at my work.

Also, the reason I write here..is because there is deep dishonesty by the Pro - H1b crowd on if the H1b visas have negative consequences for the natives.
I've seen some pretty devastating economic and personal consequences for the natives, but there is a surprising lack of discussion or talk about it.
In fact the folks on temporary visas will go to great lengths to deny that there are any consequences for the natives..
It is as if the only people of consequence are the recipient of H1b visas and by extension.. India and Indians, everyone else be dammed... especially the natives.

Also the general attitude is if you have and engg or science degree and are barely able to pronounce Java or Sql you are entitled to work in the US.. at any cost and consequence.

It is reasonable to argue ones own agenda and try to preserve ones own advantages, but to completely ignore or deny that there are negative consequences for the natives is an outright lie.

No one it seems, wants to talk about the big fat pink elephant in the room.

Some more on Bob:
Bob was fired in 2005 from his full time position at a large Enterprise IT company.
Bob wasn't a dinosaur from a forgotten age. He had deep product knowledge and superlative expertise in product development, he was an out standing performer and a great manager. He was sorta my mentor too and helped me at work in many ways.
He was part of a cost cutting/restructuring lay off.

"No" the supply of fresh (or native) grads is nearly not enough to precipitate a cost cutting/restructuring lay off. I think a fresh grad would be taken in as a trainee and would have reported to bob if there was a need. In normal times, the newly minted grad students would have a clear entry and a career path into IT. It's now gone, because you can get a h1b to work for less than what a newly minted grad would accept.

Bob's firing was a cost cutting measure.. and was precipitated because of the availability of cheaper alternatives, and the falling wage levels - because of the availability of cheaper labor.

My point is that the H1's were originally brought in supplement, in this case it clearly replaced the native. This excess "supply" (if you must) is an anomaly.

How could suresh replace bob? That is an interesting question.. suresh is a stop gap that will be retained if he grows into the (jr)role or be fired if he fails to live up to expectations. The company was able to gamble, because the cost savings on the gamble made absolute sense. When you have a low cost labor, you can take risks and do some really creative things... usually to the determent of the very same labor.

Bob's career has halted cold on it's track by no fault of his. The laws that congress enacted, allowed for someone with lower skills, lower expectations and lower qualification to replace him. He's done some temporary work since.. but is still struggling to find a position.

Mind you, my point is that H1b was a temporary solution to over come temporary labor shortage. There is no labor shortage now, it's far out lived it's mandate.

I consulted for a few years and here are some other experiences:

Infrastructure services:
A ("A") company I was contracting at had a native DBA contractor at market rates (2006). He was replaced by 2 onsite DBA's from a large Indian consulting company that charged just $5/hr each over what Company "A" paid for it's janitorial services. Both the replacement DBA's were on H1's, were paid peanuts and lived 4 in a two bed apartment. Neither had any means of transportation. Both lived out of their suite case.
Now if you can replace an IT contractor with a masters and 10 years of IT experience with two other IT contractors that are paid $5 more than what a janitor will charge you.. we have a serious problem. The Indian IT company was engaging in predatory pricing and wiped out all native contractors and replaced them with it's bunch of H1b's at barely sustainable rates.

Testing:
At another large implementation, there were two native college grads in product testing. They were replaced by a team of 4 "experienced" testing engineers on H1b at the
same cost total rate/hr, by a third tier vendor. They did the exact same work the two replaced workers did. I shudder to think what the H1's were paid. By the time I got there.. much of the implementation team too, was made up of h1b's from third tier vendors and most lived 3 to 4 in an apartment and shared transportation. Amazingly some had lived out of their suite cases for 4 to 5 years now.
This isn't about skills or capability. This is all about lowering costs... because if you bend the law a little or turn a blind eye, you can realize huge cost savings... at the expense of the natives.

Both the native testers lost their jobs at the very start of their careers. One took to bar tending... because the money was better.

PS: I haven't talked about serious consequences for the natives. I've seen two first hand.. a dear friend who's marriage ended due to his job loss and financial stress and another who move out of state at great expense to family and children. Though you can argue that both could be result of other causes and bad choices, the main contributing cause were - job losses.

Following up to Ramesh's will worded analysis, note that the very lawyers who make a very good living off working the system for dodgy H1-B certifications have their profession guarded by various associations and bar exams to prevent H1-B lawyers from invading their turf. I wonder if that gate was opened up, whether the lawyers would be quite as enthusiastic about the H1-B program.

The economy can be fixed if the US gov stops starting wars in foreign lands

"If you want to see what it really takes to boot the economy out of a debt trap, look at the large public works program, otherwise known as World War II, that ended the Great Depression"

--Paul Krugman

"If you want to see what it really takes to boot the economy out of a debt trap, look at the large public works program, otherwise known as World War II, that ended the Great Depression"

--Paul Krugman

That was then. This is now. Your average American is not benefitting financially from this war, though granted, some private corporations are.

I think the big question that needs to be asked is why are so many desis still clammoring to get into the USA. What do they want here? More money? For what? More products?

But why?

There is one other aspect I have seen first hand with so many H1B cases that does not get discussed as much - the H1Bs (men) invariably bring a spouse who is also in IT (or a techie wannabe) to the US from India. The girl/woman simply waits for an EAD (employment authorization document) after applying for the Green Card and then joins the workforce. Once again, replacing the native workers. Ask yourselves honestly about how many such cases each of you personally know.

The honest look in the mirror I implore desis to take is what Ramesh has articulated very well.

@Just_Sayin: Why stop there? Once they become citizens they sponsor their families too further hurting the natives!!! EAD is obtained after satisfying permanent residency requirements and spouses should be entitled to work. If you have problems with that, then the discussion is about employment based GC's not about H1B which is being discussed here.

Ramesh has articulated well the problems with H1 program. It definitely needs revision. But banning it outright at this moment would not be right. There are still deserving candidates who can help the country. Maybe an H1 program along lines of EB1 category in GC (national interest candidates), is needed at this time. If the candidate is exceptionally qualified, let them get work visas.

That was then. This is now

Well, take it up with the neo-keynesians...I'm just an unpricipled libertine libertarian

I think the big question that needs to be asked is why are so many desis still clammoring to get into the USA. What do they want here? More money?

Yeah, money.

For what? More products? But why?

"In this country,first you get the money, then you get the power,THEN you get the woman."

--Tony Montana

I think the big question that needs to be asked is why are so many desis still clammoring to get into the USA. What do they want here? More money?
Yeah, money.

For what? More products? But why?
"In this country,first you get the money, then you get the power,THEN you get the woman."

True. it's all about getting the woman, after all! :D

More seriously, a lot of people came/come here and stay simply because they find a much better work atmosphere and a work culture. Possibilities for innovation and for for doing what you like as opposed to working in a straitjacketed role in a hierarchical work culture (India, possibly China too) are much higher. Everyone seems to be talkign about money, cheap labor, etc., but the quality of work and the career opportunities are (to me) what drove the craze to emigrate to the US. Now people are changing in India, the work culture also seems to be slowly changing there, so you DO see a lot of people choosing either not to come here, or go back after finishing grad school (a positive trend, in my opinion, for both countries). People like Ramesh and Just Saying need not get too worried, it will take a few years for this trend to play out to its complete extent, but I predict that by the late 2010s the number of H1B seekers from India will be miniscule (IMHO).

"In this country,first you get the money, then you get the power,THEN you get the woman."

--Tony Montana

Desi men have never had a problem getting wives, whether rich or poor. So my questions still stand.

Desi men have never had a problem getting wives, whether rich or poor. So my questions still stand.

Who said anything about wives?

Who said anything about wives? I did.

You said money and power gets the woman. Desi men have never needed money and power to get women - wives are women by the way.

So where is the problem? Why the need to immigrate to get some pum pum when one can get it right from where one started.

And - the desis that have immigrated, like my grandparents, were already getting pum pum and lund right where they were BEFORE coming over here. Coming over here and making money didn't get them a wider variety of pum pum or lund. They stuck with the ones they already had. (Like my aunt, who despite her extensive education and fabulous career, stayed in a loveless marriage with the same 'ol lund for decades, go figure).

@Just_Sayin and Detroit Indian: thank you for agreeing and validating what I wrote.. at least I'm not the only (desi) indian who feels this way. Frankly it's a relief to not have to toe the H1b line, or the - you are indian.. hence you have to be pro h1b and any other opinion you have is like kicking the ladder after you've climbed or closing the door on others.

This unprecedented boom in IT sector should have befitted the locals in the way of employment, I can't say it has.
The unintended consequence of the H1b program and the resultant depression in wages is a marked lack of interest among locals for IT related careers. The next generations of locals are not taking to IT at all. It's seen as a very unrewarding profession.

In the good old days, industry would train/groom their employees, IT had a clear career path, wages were also relatively higher.
Now (Industry) it is down to use and throw... even full time employees are looked on a temporary workers - very dispensable.

Industry has always craved cheap raw material, cheap power/oil and - cheap labor.. it will make what ever case it can/has to get to it.

@Rama
Unfortunately, I think you are mistaken. You are underestimating the power of industry over legislature and the industry's dependence on cheap labor for growth and expansion.

Also the motivations for coming to the US are/were: money and then later quality of life.
You are in a minority if you emigrated to the Us for the quality of life as the primary/sole motive. Generally, you don't realize the quality of life till after you get here. I'd argue that money is the first/major draw, wanting to stay back for life style reasons or because you've put down roots here comes later after a few years of being here.

People like Ramesh and Just Saying need not get too worried, it will take a few years for this trend to play out to its complete extent, but I predict that by the late 2010s the number of H1B seekers from India will be miniscule (IMHO).

I disagree. As long as there is a source of cheap labor and access to it... Industry will find a way to import it. It's the way industry works. They will vociferously argue their case. Lots of papers will be published, they will lobby the congress and put all sorts of pressure.
It's not solely up to the individual, Remember H1's are sponsored by industry. The wage disparity (dollar to Rs) will also ensure a constant stream of temporary workers who will want to work here... and some if not many opt to become permanent residents (not a bad thing if you ask me).

You may want to read todays news in both times of india and hindustan times. This year for the first time in many years the H1b quota was not used up in the first 24 hours. Because companies did not apply in the numbers they used to. There is increased scrutiny of applications. A huge chunk of second / third tier body shoppers simply did not apply. This is not because workers in India don't want to come here.. or that the desire has diminished, it's because the old ploy of circumventing H1b guide lines have become riskier to circumvent. Consulting companies used (to sponsor) a H1b fleet to drive down costs( wages) in their quest for projects/revenue. The mantra (if you remember) was - cost savings (operational efficiency). You can replace full time "Joe" with a consultant that costs half as much if not lesser.

Cost cutting and achieving operational efficiency (through lower labor costs) has been the un-wavering trend the past 5 years or more.. ever since the Y2k and the dot com bubble burst.

My prediction: As soon as the economy recovers, it'll be business as usual and a new re-vitalized stream of temporary workers will flow in. This current over supply will be forgotten. Wages will continue to stagnate if not tend lower.
The industry has no interest in nurturing local talent when there is a ready supply of willing workers from over seas for less than prevailing wages.

Wrong; Europeans women are much better looking on average (and I'm attracted to red heads or raven brunettes - eastern european,, cant stand blondes)
I'm here because of money, Money that I can use to create more money so I'm not dependent on money. Then, I do charity work in Africa/India rest of my life.
I also have a peculiar attraction towards cars and motorcycles.

The industry has no interest in nurturing local talent when there is a ready supply of willing workers from over seas for less than prevailing wages.

I am sure the industry and their pro- H1-B shills will do an abrupt about face if suddenly H1-B CEOs and upper management started replacing the $20 million/ year CEOs and their cronies. Then suddenly we'd be bombarded with studies (from the industry of course) showing how this trend would damage US "talent", despite the millions saved.

I had previously commented on this that Indian companies have made the most applications for H1B visas. For instance, in 2006 Infosys which requested for 22590 H1B visas had a 56,441 software professionals on its books. Infosys applied H1B visas for 40% of its staff and secured 4908 visas, an application success rate of 21.73%. Either attrition rates are extremely high or the company doesn't care whom they send to the US as long as it is able to send a required number, thereby defeating the "best and brightest" argument for these visas.

Melbourne Desi
You have another category to visa to work in US, the E-3, It is for 20K Australian citizens and unlike the H1B spouse who on an H4 can not work, the spouse of an E-3 can work even if the spouse is not an Australian citizen.

Ramesh@139
I specifically said that the number of Indian H1B applicants would reduce. It is quite possible that applications from other (relatively poor) countries could rise.
You say that industry will always look to cut costs, and look for cheap labor. As I mentioned earlier, that is how market economics works. Companies cannot compete against each other if they can't produce equivalent goods for less cost. An economy where job protection is the highest ideal is great for the people who have already managed to get a job. But such an economy would not grow, and no one would have any incentive to start a new company. My prime example would be Detroit, which is now (seemingly) on the verge of collapse. And their main competition did not come from Japan and Korea, but from the southern states (which are anti-union and have right-to-work laws; let's leave aside the merits/demerits of that for now).
The flip side of this is that consumers will also jump to buy cheaper products (the Walmart effect). You cannot change industry's mentality until you change the consumer's.
Also, as many other commenters have mentioned, it is not the case that most H1B workers are cheap, or even cheaper, than native workers. You seem to have a particular set of experiences/anecdotal evidence to share, which have by and large been different from mine. Only numbers will tell the true story (perhaps they are out there, and I just need to do more research).
I'm not particularly pro-H1B. I agree with a number of commenters who suggest that it should be scrapped, and foreigners who have the necessary skills should get green cards and be free agents in the marketplace. I'm not sure that would preserve Bob's job though. You cannot wish away competition.

I do agree H1b is a privilege not a right. I see it as a give and take between the US and the H1-b visa holder. Let me just point out how.

I am of the F1,H1 route. I work for a semiconductor company and honestly as far as I know there are simply not enough american citizens to meet the demand and supply in this area. Infact the defense & other such similar companies with restrictions that they cant hire non-US citizens have a tough time and they pretty much consume the local students or sometimes contract it out whenever they can.

During the Last recession there were restrictions by big companies against H1-b and I know several companies ended up opening branches in India and China. I am sure a trend study in these countries can clearly see the branches opening up exactly at the sametime. When I came to this country for education just few years ago, there was hardly any opportunity for my chosen field of work back home. Now, I could pretty much do the same job that I get to do it here. Hasnt the US lost out its edginess?

In the job space I am in, it is US which is equally benefitting. A Mutually beneficial one.

The same goes for people in the R&D. You just have to walk in to gradschool science or engineering dept, to see how dependent the research in US is on immigrants. Not just Indians and Americans, people from across the world come to do reasearch? why? because of the opportunities and facilities they wont get anywhere else(pay in universities is pathetic it is purely for job satisfication). And enough Americans for whatever reason arent interested in Science. This is a problem, the engineering week held every feb gave me enough details about. Plus added to this, the natural immigrant drive which was enough to make them leave the comfort of their homes also makes them aggressive in their research who benefits US universities and US companies that sponsor the research and hte US citizens who buy shares of these company and the US citizens who get employed due these R&D.

Also I know I am paid as much as any American. else, I can move to a company that would offer me better, H1b visa status allows me to do that. I am not going to offer my services for lesser money as well. An H1-b worker is more expensive due to all the immigrant and lawyer cost associated. I do believe people with similar background would constitute a significant part of the H1-b visas. Ignoring these cases and concentrating only on the other part is propaganda than making an argument.

I am not denying that there is misuse. The companies you state are heavily involved in it.But that is the hole that INS should prevent. There is labor ceritication process as part of H1-b.The INS should be able to filter out these set of applications. They have the power to monitor pay checks(dont they?) to ensure the system is not misused.

Let us be honest here, even if they make LCA more stringent, the company will simply offshore. because it is cheaper and more profitable for the company. Which is what probably Bob who got fired wants as a share holder in wallstreet.

I cant believe the theory that some newbee got hired as Bob's replacement. This is the only way the scenario would have happened. Normally,companies cutoff middle level mangement as the first step in employee reduction program. So Bob got affected. Normally, new college graduates arent as easily affected by the hriing freeze because they are cheap. So the newbie got hired not as a replacement but completely two irrelevant incidents. Their nationalities helped people who want to create conspiracy theories such as these.

And if US does get all protectionist then I guess other countries should start becoming protectionist in terms of trade and may be US companies shouldnt be allowed to sell products in these countries and so on. Till date, American companies are the biggest benefactors of this globalization and as a result the American who lives on social security or gets employed by these American Mncs.

Ramesh,
I am not sure what your motives that you tend to argue so vehemently on this when you are not even involved with the said country.(sour grapes? that would be bad attitude)

ROMEO 86 / Samir / 2_H1B_Or_Not_2_H1B : Thank you for backing my observations.. I was fully expecting to be hated on for writing them here... but am surprised at the lack of flames and hate mail. Also am pretty relieved that I'm not the only one with these observations.

@Rama
I'm happy that you agree with my general views.. but I don't understand what you are trying to say.

I'm not particularly pro-H1B. I agree with a number of commenters who suggest that it should be scrapped

You're not pro-h1b.. and think that it should be scrapped.. but don't agree that it causes the locals / natives a great injustice nor that it depress wages.
May I ask then, "why" are you against H1b visas?
The reason I ask is because my only objection to new H1b's is that it "does" cause a variety of problems to the locals and it "does" depress wages.
In the IT industry, H1b's have been used quite heavily the past 5 odd years to replace locals in a variety of creative ways.

Having said that, I don't really care if a million new workers come into economy as long as there is a need, and the economy can absorb them all, and the existing workers in the system can still flourish. The current h1b influx is driven by industry thirst for cheap labor.. not by any true demand. The industry would love it if new IT workers can be hired at min wages... even then they'd complain that in a far off land IT costs are cheaper and that we need more workers to compete with "xxx" company in "yyy" country.

In general more workers in IT mean a broader/larger Tax base.. and more productivity at the higher income levels.
But it becomes unsavory when the new ones are used to game the system and undermine citizens / locals / natives. My argument is that the current H1b program is used to do precisely that.. game the system... all in the pursuit of cost savings.. mind you.. not innovation or productivity.. just cost savings.

An economy where job protection is the highest ideal is great for the people who have already managed to get a job. But such an economy would not grow, and no one would have any incentive to start a new company.

"and no one would have any incentive to start a new company"

The flip side of this is that consumers will also jump to buy cheaper products (the Walmart effect).

Also, as many other commenters have mentioned, it is not the case that most H1B workers are cheap, or even cheaper, than native workers.

More on Bob:
Unfortunately, you've missed the point again.
Bob was let go only because the company could afford to gamble, the reward was well worth it. If the new guy did not pan out, they could always grab another new one.
This isn't about "preserving" Bob's job.. it was about the unfair situation he found himself in and continues to find him self in... even though he was great at his job.
Let me be heartless and say some politically un-acceptable stuff.. if you take away the huge pool of temporary workers from the current market.. Bob will suddenly be in such high demand that, he'd probably be making more now than at his previous job. The availability of a huge surplus of cheap temp workers has forced the IT industry to fundamentally reorg in such a manner that people like bob are made obsolete. This is a case where cheap trumps talent.. and will continue to do so for some time.

Rama, I really can't reconcile what you are saying with your views.. I can't keep writing .. it's pretty exhausting, this is probably my last post.

@Indiangalfromsiliconvalley

I do agree H1b is a privilege not a right. I see it as a give and take between the US and the H1-b visa holder. Let me just point out how.

H1b visa is really not a privilege.. it is a need based program for the benefit of the United States and not meant to serve as an immigration channel for the privileged. What it means is that if they need a bunch of half dead monkeys to test widgets they will get them in for it. If they need a few genius to split atoms they'll get them too. It's got nothing to do (and should have nothing to do) with the rest of the world and availability or how desperate they are to get into this economy.
But you must be talking about how it's not a birthright.. it's more of an opportunity and an avenue.
Driving on the roads is a privilege..

I am of the F1,H1 route. I work for a semiconductor company and honestly as far as I know there are simply not enough american citizens to meet the demand and supply in this area.

The F1 to H1 visas are not counted in the 65k awarded annually each year. The F1 to H1 conversions are a fraction of the total H1's awarded each year and don't really make any serious impact on opportunities for the locals.
I don't really know about the semi conductor industry, you could be right.. may be there is a real need there. But is there an effort to nurture or encourage local talent?

During the Last recession there were restrictions by big companies against H1-b and I know several companies ended up opening branches in India and China.

When I came to this country for education just few years ago, there was hardly any opportunity for my chosen field of work back home. Now, I could pretty much do the same job that I get to do it here. Hasnt the US lost out its edginess?"

Sure, it has, and if it continues to rely on alien workers for hi-tech skills it will continue to do so.

Also I know I am paid as much as any American. else, I can move to a company that would offer me better, H1b visa status allows me to do that. I am not going to offer my services for lesser money as well. An H1-b worker is more expensive due to all the immigrant and lawyer cost associated. I do believe people with similar background would constitute a significant part of the H1-b visas. Ignoring these cases and concentrating only on the other part is propaganda than making an argument.

I am not denying that there is misuse. The companies you state are heavily involved in it.But that is the hole that INS should prevent. There is labor ceritication process as part of H1-b.The INS should be able to filter out these set of applications. They have the power to monitor pay checks(dont they?) to ensure the system is not misused.

I'm sorry this shows how delusional you are, you should really read about this issue before making wild claims. btw it's UICIS not INS.

Let us be honest here, even if they make LCA more stringent, the company will simply offshore. because it is cheaper and more profitable for the company. Which is what probably Bob who got fired wants as a share holder in wallstreet.

I cant believe the theory that some newbee got hired as Bob's replacement. This is the only way the scenario would have happened. Normally,companies cutoff middle level mangement as the first step in employee reduction program. So Bob got affected. Normally, new college graduates arent as easily affected by the hriing freeze because they are cheap. So the newbie got hired not as a replacement but completely two irrelevant incidents. Their nationalities helped people who want to create conspiracy theories such as these.

And if US does get all protectionist then I guess other countries should start becoming protectionist in terms of trade and may be US companies shouldnt be allowed to sell products in these countries and so on. Till date, American companies are the biggest benefactors of this globalization and as a result the American who lives on social security or gets employed by these American Mncs.

This conversation is getting really absurd. I quit! Bye - Bye!

The F1 to H1 visas are not counted in the 65k awarded annually each year. The F1 to H1 conversions are a fraction of the total H1's awarded each year and don't really make any serious impact on opportunities for the locals.

Dude,

for all your diatribe against H1Bs you are kinda not strong on facts. F1 to H1 visas are still counted in the 65K limit, just that they can make use of another 20K limit in case of students educated in the US. And it is a recent rule. Another exception I know is that any H1 visas offered to academic institutions are not counted for the limit.

If you think about the number of Indian students entering US campuses every year (one year they were more than 80000, and it is just the Indian students) and they would enter the job market after a couple (or 4) of years you would realise that F1 to H1 is not a miniscule portion of H1 visas.

Just as I said H1 is not a right but a privilege I think you need to realise people on H1 visas are not the root cause of all evil.

What the gal from Silicon Valley says is true. It is not quite easy to find qualified American candidates in certain areas.

WHat s UICIS?. Did you mean USCIS?. USCIS is previously called as INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) and only after 9/11 was re-orged with the new Homeland security department and got a new name. Are you a new immigrant or do you pretend to be one?. :-)

Ramesh,

I live in US. I studied here and I have been working for semiconductor companies for the past 5 years. And Your experience is from a different side and looks like a different time.

I acknowledge the different side but I saw in all these comments,that the scenario that I see isnt adequately represented. You say that is a small bunch. I disagree.

And whatever I have argued back, all you have argued back is by calling me ignorant, if i say what i see that makes me ignorant.
1. I know that I couldnt get hired as an intern as an F1 in 2002.Things did change slighlty better by 2003 but the original company changed its policy only in 2004.
2. I have friends working in various semiconductors and other popular companies like microsoft, yahoo, google and so on.That this sizable chunk is ignored in this discussion is the only reason I wrote.
3. I just checked my first h1 paper, it does only say INS. this was in 2004.

Except for the bob speculation where I just tried fitting the scenerio with what I have seen around, rest of it is my personal experience. Ponniyin selvan above is correct. in the beginnning,every one gets their visa from the 65000 visas only after that the if there are applications of F1 remaining those get through the 20000 visas. If you left USA long ago,things have changed. Lot more grad students are entering from india and they are making this transition.

It is a specialized visa. A data entry person should not be hired through H1b(though I am told this does happen). it was specifically to meet the specialized needs. If there is misuse prevent that and besides as I say face the consequence of these companies opening offices in other countries, that is much cheaper than even paying half of the local salary in the current scenario.

As of today, this whole bill doesnt affect me. I just wanted to prevent the picture being all one-sided.

" What it means is that if they need a bunch of half dead monkeys to test widgets they will get them in for it." that bunch of half dead monkeys being hired is a problem,there are clear restrictions against this.

I dont have time to look for numbers but I do remember reading there is a serious gap between the number of engineers India and china churn out to the ones US churns out.

H1 visa is purely for the US needs. It is to ensure US companies dont lose out their edge because of shortage of specialized skill set. As far as that goes the final bill that got passed on doesnt affect it. infact, it is redundant, the whole h1b process should take care of this as i said.

2 choices really..Globalisation ( see where that has got us with the USA banking system) or Protectionism...
USA trades only with Canada, Mexico etc...UK and Europe only trade amongst themselves, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc etc

Imo, ppl like Ramesh and co getting their time in the sun is among the signs that US is circling the drain. But the (albeit softer each passing day) voice of many others in the US who want to keep doors open is a sign that the US may yet flourish.

Let me explain. However flawed the demand of self imposed virtuosity was, the US has prospered through reaching out to other countries. Today you see this notion turned on its head----despite ample evidence that the welcoming immigration policy has paid off hugely, Ramesh wants to focus on a few bad eggs, gets his facts almost completely wrong to support xenophobia, and fence the borders to "prevent depression of wages". Why is this wrong?

I usually think of the following analogy when I think of arguments like Ramesh's---what separates a savage justice system from a civilized one is its focus. A savage system is intent on punishing the perpetrators, a civilized one is doubly careful not to punish someone innocent even at the expense of potentially letting a few criminals go free. Human history will amply demonstrate which one works.

I don't expect to convince Ramesh and the like, nor am I interested. I have nothing at stake in this matter, and I doubt logic is the reason for Ramesh's diatribes.

But let me add one thing about depression of wages. It is hardly about H1-B or local. If you expect to get paid in six figures---twice a fresh Phd in pure sciences, three times a cop who risks his life every other day, four times that of a school teacher with a decade of experience---for a job whose skills you can pick up in a year or two of community college, your company isn't going to be very competitive.
What many have here is a ridiculous sense of entitlement, not a real grievance.

That said, a majority of H1-Bs are legitimate---and part of the process involves verification with the USCIS that you cannot hire a native, that you are paying at least the market wages for the job, and you made reasonable efforts to hire a native. As with any system, there are some who game the system, no doubts about that.

But, it makes no sense to keep all guests out because there are a few who do it wrong. So, the shifting change in tone---from a policy where the US tries to welcome immigrants as far as possible, to one that toys with immigrants and their lives since you are giving them the privilege of entering---bothers me. It is unfortunate that every society succumbs to the whims of its idiots, but I hope there is an exception in this case.

An engineering position with a semiconductor company has barrier to entry - typically a graduate degree in Physics/EECE/CS from a school in the US - and therefore can justifiably hire foreigners if native talent is inadequate in numbers. IT position is a different matter and has been systematically exploited and abused over last 15-20 years by body-shoppers. I have worked in software development for over 14 years in the US and while I have had the pleasure of working with many bright H1B individuals who added tremendous value to the company I have also seen plenty of unfit, for lack of a better word, individuals who shouldn't have been here if it was just based on the skillset they were supposed to be bringing. Having said the above, I don't know if the H1-B group I should worry about as a *native* (now that I happen to be a citizen of the US). Much more worrisome is the offshoring business where your work here can migrate over to another country leaving you high and dry. The other thing I worry about is IT is usually the game of the young people which is why making a career out of IT is not rewarding for most people. Why that is so is a different topic but make no mistake that young ones are gunnin' for ya. Having so many willing young folks back in India/China/whereever ready to do the same job that Bob is doing today is going to doom Bob no matter what. Anyone over 35 working in IT should either consider to be in a niche area or switch career. Unless you have made a killing in stock options and such or you love to write code you are gonna regret not trying something else earlier in your career.

bytewords,
I will agree with that.

In a way Ramesh is like indian shiv sena. These kind of policies in India is what has hindered India's development. I really dont know why they would like America to fall so much. I can never forget the awe of all these top-notch research scholars that I saw from across the world in the university corridors. At that time, I felt US was literally stealing them,it is. But removing H1b would result in them not being able to contribute any more. As such there isnt enough research facilities in their country which is why they move to this place.may be they will move to australia and start arguing against us migration like melbourne desi.

bytewords,
I will agree with that.

In a way Ramesh is like indian shiv sena. These kind of policies in India is what has hindered India's development. I really dont know why they would like America to fall so much. I can never forget the awe of all these top-notch research scholars that I saw from across the world in the university corridors. At that time, I felt US was literally stealing them,it is. But removing H1b would result in them not being able to contribute any more. As such there isnt enough research facilities in their country which is why they move to this place.may be they will move to australia and start arguing against us migration like melbourne desi.

I do have to say this, as a country I have grown to love this place for what it has stood for. innovation, opportunity - american dream. This place is one of the very few such countries today and I thought rest of the world should learn from US but now this would make us follow india.

You have another category to visa to work in US, the E-3, It is for 20K Australian citizens and unlike the H1B spouse who on an H4 can not work, the spouse of an E-3 can work even if the spouse is not an Australian citizen.

Why can't our Indian friends stop abusing the H-1B and L-1 visas and just get O visas? Aren't you people the "best and the brightest"? Since there are no Americans to do routine SAP, .NET, Oracle DBA, C#, and Java, you should all be able to get the O-1 visas.

Maybe you aren't the "best and the brightest", just the cheap and cheapest. FYI, American I.T. professionals don't really like you. We just act like we do so we don't get fired by the managers who brought you scabs into our I.T. departments.

Behind your back, we mock your odor, your thick accents, and your dress. We have funny nicknames for you. We drag our feet when you need something like a login. Some of us put urine in your tea.

Please go home. We have mortgages and families. You have a suitcase and greed for gold, plus a need to command a large dowry.