They visit Himachal a lot too. There is a lot of talk about Israeli and Italian drug cartels running Himachal's drug industry. I don't think they want to interact with Indians much, to avoid bringing attention to this issue. India is just a convenient place where they can engage in such activities without the law bothering them much.

I think shiksa is a pejorative term, isn't it?

Is it just me or is the first one more straightforward than the second one in its point ?

Ads like these in the US would be taken quite negatively by Repubs (moveon.org anyone ?)

It is interesting that there is a big enough objector movement in Israel and I am curious as to
whether the TV stations would play the second ads - I could see that not occurring here at all - are the second ones internet only ?
Especially since most of the technology and telecommunications industry has been set up and run by ex-military folk
in Israel from what I have read.

Considering the mandatory draft and the humanitarian issues which arise from some of the policies (not taking sides here)
I could see there being a national moral crisis re: this issue. There are quite a few anti-occupation Israelis, and they
also have a large Israeli-born Palestinian citizenship - are they expected to be drafted as well ? Just curious - hope that doesn't sound ignorant.

Israeli Arabs and the ultra-orthodox are both exempt from the draft. In addition, Israeli law allows for conscientious objection.

Based on my experience I would say these commercials reflect the general tone of Israeli youth in India. They have their own circuit; New Delhi - Manali - Goa - Nepal. They were the heart and soul of the world famous Goa rave scene back in the 90s that gave rise to a whole new sub-genre within the trance music genre, called "Goa Trance".

They've set up their own micro-communities in each of these spots and they don't really try to fit into Indian society very much. They have created a sub-culture in India.

Has anyone ever roamed Pahar Ganj just in front of the New Delhi train station? Some of the signs in front of the cafes are in hebrew and the fare is Israeli salad (cukes, tomatoes, coriander) and falafel, made by desis taught by Israelis.

The Isrealis have basically taken over Pahar Ganj in numbers, and about every other person you meet there has dreads and multiple body piercings. They make no effort whatsoever to assimilate, really.

Side note: Mein Kampf was banned in India but you can get it on the downlow in Pahar Ganj from a certain book dealer.

You can get just about anything in Pahar Ganj.

Israeli Arabs and the ultra-orthodox are both exempt from the draft.

i thought muslim arabs weren't allowed to join the army?

ok, i was wrong. they can volunteer.

Apparently Israeli army has started hiring investigators to spy on women who try to evade the draft on religious grounds - if and when they are caught doing something irreligious, like kissing someone, game's over for them.

Curious as to how high an Israeli-Arab enlisted office could rise in the ranks and whether they are considered a security risk (similar to the US Japanese in WWII).

Would there really by that many Arab Israelis who would enlist and potentially be vilified by their friends and family, even if they truly hated Hamas, Hezbollah, suicide bombers, etc ?
Or be targeted like Iraqis were when trying to enlist in a new post-occupation Iraqi army ?

Apparently Israeli army has started hiring investigators to spy on women who try to evade the draft on religious grounds - if and when they are caught doing something irreligious, like kissing someone, game's over for them.

Is kissing considered a "sin" in Judaism?

Not a sin - but they're thinking that if you object on religious grounds (not conscientious objection) then you are claiming to be an orthodox, chaste, practicing Jew
who is not engaging in perceived lascivious behavior.

Ultra-orthodox Judaism has strictures against men and women touching. Unless you are married or within the immediate family there is no touching, including shaking hands, between opposite sexes. Even then, there wouldn't be any kissing between husband and wife in public. So any canoodling is verboten, and a definite give away that you are not Ultra-orthodox!

Not a sin - but they're thinking that if you object on religious grounds (not conscientious objection) then you are claiming to be an orthodox, chaste, practicing Jew who is not engaging in perceived lascivious behavior.

Non-orthodox and reform Jews cannot object on religious grounds? Is it only the orthodox Jews who are allowed to be concientious objectors?

Not a sin - but they're thinking that if you object on religious grounds (not conscientious objection) then you are claiming to be an orthodox, chaste, practicing Jew who is not engaging in perceived lascivious behavior.

Non-orthodox and reform Jews cannot object on religious grounds? Is it only the orthodox Jews who are allowed to be religion-oriented objectors?

Reworded my question but the first one still got posted by mistake.

Non-orthodox and reform Jews cannot object on religious grounds?

the israeli gov. does not recognize non-orthodox judaism as religious judaism last i checked. the reform & conservative movements have tried to change this but to no avail. the "orthodox" camp in israel is diverse though, with sephardic/mizrachi judaism, ashkenazi 'modern orthodox'/religious nationalist and 'ultra-orthodox' (the haredi, which includes hasidic and non-hasidic). in the last that gets exemptions.

Would there really by that many Arab Israelis who would enlist and potentially be vilified by their friends and family, even if they truly hated Hamas, Hezbollah, suicide bombers,

druze enroll and are respected (i believe druze have to do national service). also there has been recruitment of bedouin.

Paharganj Falafel I agree. Read this below
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3412213,00.html
This is what a Israeli says about us:
At the same time of the embassy's call, two articles were published in the Indian press that included a quotation from an Israeli backpacker in Manali: “They (the Indians) are dirty and primitive, but unexpectedly, they serve us well, like the Arabs in the territories did before they decided to raise a hand against us.”

And then there is this
http://youthcurry.blogspot.com/2007/01/shalom-india.html

Looks like India is becoming the ganja ka adda for these Israelis.

Ankar - how many South Asians are prejudiced against other people and say ugly things about other people? Surely you know one or two? Does that mean every South Asian must be stereotypes as an ignorant bigot? No...We can just adopt a policy that say all isrealis suck and can't visit India b/c they are prejudiced...b/c not all Isrealis are...I met some Isrealis backpacking in India and unfortunately my experience leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth...but that was those people. I've had plenty of people, who are actually a minority in the US say prejudicial stuff about Indians or South Asians or Hindus...that doesn't mean that everyone that I meet from that race (and yes, most of these insults have come from other minorities) are ignorant assholes, so why would you say that about Isrealis?

druze enroll and are respected (i believe druze have to do national service). also there has been recruitment of bedouin.

The Druze are actually the most pro-Israel Israelis. In many cases even more than a lot of the secular Jews.

Let's all speculate as to why . . .

The Druze are actually the most pro-Israel Israelis.

yes. but do note that the druze of lebanon and syria are not pro-israel. in fact that the druze of golan are quite hostile to israel. iz complicated....

PS you're correct that we should not stereotype anyone, but Israeli youth go to India to relieve stress after serving in the Israeli army and they are there to party. Nothing wrong with a good party every now and then but they have created a whole sub-culture in India around it.

I know first hand because I was in the middle of it all more than a few times.

People who are regularly getting high, whether from ganja or from more dangerous substances like LSD or XTC or whatever the latest psychedelic in the Goan weekend flea market is, do not have all their wits about them and behave in strange and sometimes dangerous ways - on a regular basis. If you don't believe me, try living with someone with a habit for a few days and witness the instense mood swings.

All kinds of people get high but these Isreali youth are doing it full time in India and making a sub-culture out of it because that is precisely WHY they go to India in the first place - for cheap drugs, the beaches, rave parties, etc.

In Goa locals complain about the endless (sometimes 24 hour) noise coming from the beach raves throughout the night when they are trying to sleep and have begged local authorities to curb the menace. However....

Did someone say there won't be beach parties in Goa '31 Dec 08'..? Well, this party began at about 11-12 pm on the 31st and was on in full form till about 10 am on the 1st which is when i left..Music was awesome!

Moreover, because of the high demand for drugs, a Russian drug mafia has been imported to Goa to administer to the needs of ravers and cavers.

OK, OK, India has probably always had it's own indigenous drug mafias but do more needed to be added to the mix, and that from abroad?

Crime rates in Goa have risen expotentially (hope I'm using that word right) and the easy, laid back, comforting, indigenous atmosphere that both peace loving hippies and Goan locals knew in the 60s and 70s is gone.

Have a state run monopoly on the distribution of ganja and LSD and your problem is solved. No drug mafias, moderates the excesses through the inevitable lack of supply that the government is sure to create, and generates revenue.

It's a win/win/win.

Yea there will be noise. You can cry about all the way to the bank.

other than the waiters calling out Chai garam! It's nice to get some respite from all the Chai-bagging talk in the news today.

two articles were published in the Indian press that included a quotation from an Israeli backpacker in Manali: “They (the Indians) are dirty and primitive

Why pick on the israelis alone? Such sentiments towards indians are expressed by most foreign visitors to India.

Could we not turn this into a long disquisition into the racism of Israeli tourists? Yes, some perhaps many are racist about the country they are visiting. So are Americans, and Brits and Europeans. Not just in India but all over. Even Indians do it when they go to other countries (gasp).

It's quite puzzling to me that racists choose to travel to other countries, but they do, and then they complain and put down the locals. It's acknowledged but can we move on?

I don't think racism is the issue. It's the wacked out behaviour that people are talking about, like disrupting natural cycles by partying loudly til next day at noon.

"Curious as to how high an Israeli-Arab enlisted office could rise in the ranks and whether they are considered a security risk (similar to the US Japanese in WWII)."

Germans and Italians were not trusted either. Over 10,000 German-Americans were placed in US internment camps during WWII.

I don't think racism is the issue. It's the wacked out behaviour that people are talking about, like disrupting natural cycles by partying loudly til next day at noon.

Again, not unique to Israelis. There are places in Poland where they want to ban brits because they puke on the streets, get lost, can't find their hotels and wake the entire neighborhood up. Sadly, there's a lot of yobbism in general amongst tourists. I could tell you stories about Danes, for example ...

The funny thing is that they’re worried about explaining themselves to Europeans while in India and leave Indians entirely out of the picture

I don't find this funny but eminently understandable; most Israelis, once you leave the propaganda rubbish behind, regard themselves as at least in part products of European culture and nationalism which they are. Given their troubled history and love-hate relationship with Europe; it is understandable that they seek to justify their nationalism with reference to Europeans. Indians, like most other Asians are at best an irrelvance in this dialogue. You can say this is a form of racism or you can say it is just the infleunce of history. It matters little to imo.

The difficulty in 'connecting' for Israelis in India has been mentioned to me by several Israelis I know and it was a source of fustration for them. But really, again, it is to be expected if you go to a lot of the touristy places and don't know anybody who actually lives in India; it is hard to make uch a connection within a short timespan. Divides are so big most of our own middle classes are quite disconnected from what goes on outside the metropolises.

like disrupting natural cycles by partying loudly til next day at noon.

Hmmm...lots of high hippies dancing really badly...

Hmmm...lots of high hippies dancing really badly...

These are not hippies, Sameer. (Ex) hippies are well into their 50s and 60s now.

Hippies had a vision and a mission. Don't quite know what the vision and mission is of these Goa ravers.

Weird seeing all these Israeli - indian things keeping in mind I've dated Jewish girls exclusively(coincidentally) for maybe the past year or two.
The Brunette is pretty cute.

i too am impressed that the objector movement is strong enough to mount these sort of ads, I agree the first ad as an advertisement was probably better than the second at conveying the message but either way, all this 'to be a real Israeli you have to do this...' is bullshit. it makes about as much sense as saying that to be a real Israeli you have to kill Palestinians and as often as possible.

PS I have nothing against Israelis. Indeed I am a staunch supporter of the state of Israel (and a state for Palestinians as well but will support Israel against the crazies who want to wipe it off the map). But what I am saying is you hardly see such behaviour from Western or far Eastern tourists. Indeed it is not the behaviour but the attitude shown by them which is shocking. The attitude is as if we as a race are meant to be their servants. Many Indian businessmen in these areas cover in fear from Israelis and take the abuse. The Israelis behave as if they own the place and we are their slaves. That is what I am talking about. Something I have never seen from European or Japanese tourists in India. Indeed Israeli tourists have such a reputation throughout the world.

Is India a common destination for young Israelis e.g. once they leave the military? I as just wondering if there is a specific time in their life when many Israelis choose to go over to India.

I was pretty impressed, as well, about the range of views shown against enlistment. I was wondering, also, whether requirements are different for e.g. those who have their Israeli citizenship as a second one and do not reside there?

The film 'Flipping out' is a very interesting documentary that was shown on the sundance channel which explores the whole phenomena of some Israeli's that have gone to India after leaving the military and the effects of the lifestyle (ie drugs ) on them and the whole Israeli community.

It does show a glimmer of how Israeli's feel about the Indians and some of the individual's distaste but on the whole it really addresses the problem of drug addiction for these guys and how they have support from the religious chabad group.

http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=festivals&jump=review&id=2559&reviewid=VE1117936320

"Docu unfolds first around Himalayan townships and then the beaches of Goa in the south, where numerous guest houses cater exclusively to Israelis. In many, ex-soldiers, male and a few female, smoke bongs and joints incessantly. When prodded, some recount the disturbing experiences in the army they're trying to forget.

Having lived through such stresses, it's no wonder that some, like victim Ran Shamir, end up freaking out under the influence of drugs. He's finally led home by professional tracker Hilik Magnus, whom Israeli families hire to find their wayward kids."

Ankur, the people the Israelis are interacting with aren't exactly the most independent. If the only interactions they have with Indians are with people there to serve them (wait staff and whatnot) then they're going to take that mentality. It's a consequence on hanging out in a tourist enclave rather than being in the thick of it and having to get shoved out of the way when trying to get on the bus.

That and the fact that Indians in general seem to have an inferiority complex when confronted with assertive Whites and on top of that don't have the money to be able to afford to throw anyone out. We may be nominally decolonized but mentally many are still enthralled.

Ankur, the people the Israelis are interacting with aren't exactly the most independent. If the only interactions they have with Indians are with people there to serve them (wait staff and whatnot) then they're going to take that mentality. It's a consequence on hanging out in a tourist enclave rather than being in the thick of it and having to get shoved out of the way when trying to get on the bus.

That and the fact that Indians in general seem to have an inferiority complex when confronted with assertive Whites and on top of that don't have the money to be able to afford to throw anyone out. We may be nominally decolonized but mentally many are still enthralled.

yoga fire, the whole thing makes it sound like getting treated badly is their own fault. is that really what ur trying to say?

As a long time resident of N.Goa I can tell you one instance of a beach north of little Vagator that was taken over by Israelis who renamed it as Tel Aviv beach and would not Indians except for the locals that ran the shacks and rooms for rent onto the beach till they were warned by the local SP in charge N.Goa that they would be expelled en masse unless they let free access to the beach. To this day there is always problems with the racist attitudes of the Israelis towards Indians. Only with the Russians and North Indians (read Dilliwalas) coming in large numbers and buying up land has the animosity against the Israelis eased.

As a long time resident of N.Goa I can tell you one instance of a beach north of little Vagator that was taken over by Israelis who renamed it as Tel Aviv beach and would not Indians except for the locals that ran the shacks and rooms for rent onto the beach till they were warned by the local SP in charge N.Goa

Only with the Russians and North Indians (read Dilliwalas) coming in large numbers and buying up land has the animosity against the Israelis eased.

yoga fire, the whole thing makes it sound like getting treated badly is their own fault. is that really what ur trying to say?

If you're going to do business with assholes I don't want to hear whining about how they're assholes. Is that so hard? If they tried those sorts of shenanigans in Mumbai some neighborhood toughs would show up to teach them a lesson.

"Israeli Arabs and the ultra-orthodox are both exempt from the draft.

i thought muslim arabs weren't allowed to join the army?"

A lot of the Israeli Arabs are Christian Arabs, though I don't know the percentage. In the city of Haifa, for instance, the Arabs are mostly Christians and this town is known for its relatively harmonious interethnic relations, though even there they don't mix too much. btw, there was an Indian restaurant there. The owners were actually Jews whose ancestors had lived in India for generations, and they did look Indian--but sort of Jewish too. A co-worker from Iraq told me that one third of Iraq had been Christian until the late 70s, after which time most fled. I'd had no idea there were so many Christians in the middle east, other than Lebananon and Syria.
The Christian Arabs are MUCH less anti-Jewish state, for obvious reasons. Also Druze and some other minority groups are considered good soldiers in the Israeli army.

This thread brings back memories of a brief stay in Israel. Shall I ever forget the troop of Israeli soldiers who marched on the beach and then took a group piss facing the sea, backs politely to the crowds? The Americans I was with got angry but I thought it was kind of funny. It didn't hit anybody, and I guess taking a quick piss in public without missing a beat was part of bootcamp.

Between that, and the Russian woman washing her sandy toddler off in the drinking fountain, I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore.

There was a lot of interest in what they considered Indian spirituality, but Israelis are among the most insular individuals in the entire world.

It’s odd for me as a brown to see India both visible and invisible in these clips.

The references to India are pretty slight;

It's odd for me as an Indian to find anything odd with the clips. I don't see any slight to India.

I saw a Hindi movie (Jism) with the story taking place in Pondicherry. I never thought the movie is a slight for Tamils / Pondicherry because of the lack of references to Tamils or their culture.

I think directors / story writers are more interested in their target audience than the people who happen to live in the locale of their film shoots.

Hmm. this is the second time from you talking about Israeli slight on India. Do i see a motive?. :-)

Hmm. this is the second time from you talking about Israeli slight on India. Do i see a motive?

I didn't say this was a slight on India at all. To the contrary I said that Indians were invisible and that was weird to me, but it was probably realistic and no different from the way Americans behave when they go to Mexico.

We blog about things that amuse us, not just things that irritate us. We're not one trick ponies.

I would not compare all tourists in India to the Isreali rave crowd.

I think their rude and aggressive behaviour can be attributed to drugs and the subsequent mood swings that drug users go through frequently - daily, hourly, even from moment to moment.

On the contrary, many non-Isreali tourists go to India with an overly reverent attitude, bordering on worship for all things and all people "Indian".

However, to be fair, we all know that India can really set people off sometimes. Things can be so frustrating there and sometimes ordinarily calm and cool folk can be pushed to the edge.

India has a way of pushing alot of buttons.

And if we really want to be honest, when you see at how yelling at "help" is common in India - by, for and towards other Indians, well, you start to think that "this is the way people communicate with each other here".

Until you meet an ultra bhadra-lok parivara and then you wonder "what is wrong with them?"...
Then after sometime it dawns on you that just because most of India carries on that way "yelling at help", doesn't mean that it is neccessarily "right".

But then is it wrong? So many times I've thought people were fighting and they say, "oh we're just having a conversation".

Can be very confusing.

If you're extra-polite in India, you will never be able to get anything done.

If you're extra-polite in India, you will never be able to get anything done.