This guy's amazing, very powerful.

Very powerful.

They should play his video Voice for the Voiceless in very high school with young "Indo-Canadians" (that's what they call us in Canada).
Definitely in Surrey where I am from. Have friends who have lost family (or even been attacked themselves)
over ridiculously random stupid altercations. The Bleaching cream video is great too - hell, even TMBWITW used to pitch that stuff.

watching the kids with the dolls at the end was just crushing.

It's pretty amazing that you think a guy blandly rhyming on the most basic concepts about skin color is a "poet" with "clean flow and smart lyrics." That says a lot about your baseline for hip hop, poetry, and music in general.

Also, I like how the foxy browns and lauryn hills that are held up as paragons of black beauty are, if not as caucasian-featured as black girls can get, then pretty close to it. The lines sure got flipped.

At least Jahcoozi has good beats and lyrics that, as straight-forward as they are, are positively edgy compared to this dope.

I'd say the second video is better than the first, the initial lyrics aren't synched well with the following tape of the study of the children. It would have made more sense to remix the audio/video of the study in some way to make them stronger. Hard to beat that final scene of the girl having to choose the 'bad' doll as the representation of herself.

To Builder goes the prize though, that song has Much better lyrics, and while the visuals are just the photo of the girl (I'm assuming the artist as a child), I was kept busy listening to the lyrics and their meaning.

ouch on the first vid.


lol on the jahcoozi vid psted yb builder. dntbeso bitter budlier man.

I didn't find the songs entertaining or educational.

I was touched by the young children in the doll experiment though. Makes me want to try that experiment on my American born "wheatish" toned nieces to see what they think.

Lauren Hill Caucasian featured??? This is troll bait, right?

The doll test is part of a 7 min. short film called "A Girl Like Me," and based on similar 1940s tests that were used in the Brown v. Board desegregation case.

We can be absolutely certain that in India the number of not just kids but even adults who prefer the lighter skinned doll over the one that looked like themselves will be far higher than the 15 out of 21 in the video of these african american kids. That is how pathetically beaten down the indian psyche is.

It's pretty amazing that you think a guy blandly rhyming on the most basic concepts about skin color is a "poet" with "clean flow and smart lyrics." That says a lot about your baseline for hip hop, poetry, and music in general.

Also, I like how the foxy browns and lauryn hills that are held up as paragons of black beauty are, if not as caucasian-featured as black girls can get, then pretty close to it. The lines sure got flipped.

At least Jahcoozi has good beats and lyrics that, as straight-forward as they are, are positively edgy compared to this dope.

Builder, give the girl a break. She tried. You can't expect people who did not grow up living, breathing and sleeping hip hop 24/7 in their environment to be true connaisseurs and authoritative critques of the same.

Here's some.

We can be absolutely certain that in India the number of not just kids but even adults who prefer the lighter skinned doll over the one that looked like themselves will be far higher than the 15 out of 21 in the video of these african american kids

don't you think that unlike these kids they are likely to pick the light-skinned doll as looking like "themselves" because that's what their own self-conception is? i think non-whites in the united states who live in a majority white society simply are used to thinking of themselves as dark-skinned; that's just what we are on a relative scale no matter how light brown someone might be. in contrast it seems in societies where there is a continuum of complexion instead of a "binning" into white/non-white, such as india or brazil, everyone seems to try and assert they are a shade or two lighter than they really are objectively (e.g., very dark-skinned afro-brazilians tend not to want to refer to themselves as 'preta,' black, excepting those who have been influenced by afrocentric thinking).

i do wish that people could engage in anti-prejudice and anti-racism consciousness raising without being anti-white. just because you think black or brown is beautiful doesn't mean that white isn't alright.

i think non-whites in the united states who live in a majority white society simply are used to thinking of themselves as dark-skinned...in contrast it seems in societies where there is a continuum of complexion instead of a "binning" into white/non-white, such as india or brazil, everyone seems to try and assert they are a shade or two lighter than they really are objectively

True. Many Desis in Desh say that they are Caucasian and "aryan" is often used.

i do wish that people could engage in anti-prejudice and anti-racism consciousness raising without being anti-white

the anti-white rhetoric is mostly a ruse. the unmentioned but implicitly understood strategy is to fight white racism by overcompensating on the other side. instill your kids with racialist or ethnocentric pride and when they inevitably encounter white supremacy and eurocentrism they simply revert back to a neutral, ie non-racist, middle ground, rather than self-hatred.

say it loud i'm black and i'm proud

James Brown reminds me, here's some real flow.

@GoanTGF: You don't have to even come close to breathing hip hop, or any other form of art, to have some basic ability to discern something of substance from, say, total crap.

i do wish that people could engage in anti-prejudice and anti-racism consciousness raising without being anti-white

They can and they do. White people also engage in the same, as well as ethnic-pride, without indulging in anti-non-white hate, but the thing is, in today's multi-culti-we-are-all-the-same-world, anyone who shows pride in their culture, ethnicity, whatever, whether it be brown-pride, white-pride, black-pride, whatever, they are often accused of being racist, when in reality, they are not anti-anyone-else, they are just pro-their-own-culture, and that's OK.

total crap.

Crap is relative. For instance, as much as I respect Jahcoozi, (and I do have a couple of her songs and we did blog about her plenty already on SM, and we've NEVER blogged about this guy before) when her song comes up on my ipod shuffle, I tend to press skip and go to the next song. If humble poet came on, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't press skip. Thus, if skipping songs are any indication of CRAP, then to me, Jahcoozi is CRAP. And Humble the Poet isn't.

Like I said, Builder, crap is relative. And yours is tinged with elitist blipster.

don't you think that unlike these kids they are likely to pick the light-skinned doll as looking like "themselves" because that's what their own self-conception is?

You are using self-delusion as a justification for what can only be described as self-loathing :-)

Have you heard of that ancient invention called the "mirror"?

It's not as if there is not a continuum of skin-tone in the U.S.... even among "white" people...

I grew up in a small town in Maine where most people where of French or Irish descent... since I am partly Croatian , my skin-tone is darker, a color I call 'olive' (image the shade of a very light toned Panjabi, for example)... as a 'dark' white person, I was often singled out as 'ethnic' or asked where I was from/if I was from this or that place much more often. As a little child, I thought my olive skin made me look 'dirty' (compared to the pinkish people around me) and I remember trying to scrub that color off in the shower.

As I got older, I felt that my skin tone and very dark hair made me feel unique, and became quite proud of my heritage.

Taz,

forgive the impertinence, but in what aesthetic is the following considered "smart" or "conscious?"

when I think of palestinians who died this century
Over 6 milli, like the israelis are competing wit nazis
Stop me, if Im lying, cop these, vivid rhymes

If this isn't testimony to the connection between desi and african culture, I don't know what is.

Note: "I accept your parents as my own".

Kyonki Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi.

Desi mother-in-law found in African Tribe!

n today's multi-culti-we-are-all-the-same-world, anyone who shows pride in their culture, ethnicity, whatever, whether it be brown-pride, white-pride, black-pride, whatever, they are often accused of being racist,

the video above has a lot of unflattering depictions of white women. i don't think talking about how lauryn hill is a hot sister, or a nubian queen, or whatever, is racist or anti-white. but the juxtaposition was what irritated me. being into your own culture doesn't always necessitate denigrating others.

True. Many Desis in Desh say that they are Caucasian and "aryan" is often used.

"Aryan" is probably extreme BS, like "Caucasian", but sooner or later, most people, and even researchers, will realize/grasp that white people are simply the northern-sun-bleached variety of browns. ie, not the default setting.

Personally, i like Humble the poet better. Both jahcoozi and htp are cliche as hell, but i find htp's voice/flow better than jahcoozi's. I don't get whats wrong with what saying israeli's are competing against nazi's. I'm not taking it for fact or anything, but its not a terrible rhyme or anything like that. And it can be considered conscious because the msm doesn't really talk about palestinan deaths. The public opinion in america probably thinks palestinan=hammas. But, even if you disagree and don't think its a smart/conscious rap, how is that any worse than jahcoozi rappin about a guy who'll go down on her?

Its always funny to me when people say one artist is crap and this artist is better. Nobody can tell me who is better than who. Only i can make that choice. Jahcoozi isn't bad and i don't think htp is great, but i will certainly cop some of his music.

"Aryan" is probably extreme BS, like "Caucasian", but sooner or later, most people, and even researchers, will realize/grasp that white people are simply the northern-sun-bleached variety of browns. ie, not the default setting.

minor scientific note. the genetic data suggest that:

1) humans developed dark skin more 1 million years ago, probably when we lost our fur. we know this because of the nature of the genes which cause skin color variation.

2) genuinely pale humans are recent, probably within the last 10,000 years, though light brown people have probably been around longer (though neandertals likely had red hair and were pale, but i don't know if you want call them humans).

so the "default" human setting is dark skin. but the "default" primate setting is not. like our speech or hairlessness dark skin is a human innovation.

The public opinion in america probably thinks palestinan=hammas

Yeah, how could stupid Americans think that, given that Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas. . . .

Razib once again makes the best point here.

the video above has a lot of unflattering depictions of white women.

I'll watch it again, but I don't think white people are tottering on the edge of developing low self esteem because they are the default comparison for black or brown folk. Can you imagine being thought of so much? Its the greatest compliment actually.

i don't think talking about how lauryn hill is a hot sister, or a nubian queen,

He should've juxtaposed that 2 decade old pic of Lauryn with a latest one. Have you seen her recently? Oprah in a clown suit.

25 · razib on May 25, 2009 02:06 AM · Direct link
"Aryan" is probably extreme BS, like "Caucasian", but sooner or later, most people, and even researchers, will realize/grasp that white people are simply the northern-sun-bleached variety of browns. ie, not the default setting.
minor scientific note. the genetic data suggest that:
1) humans developed dark skin more 1 million years ago, probably when we lost our fur. we know this because of the nature of the genes which cause skin color variation.
2) genuinely pale humans are recent, probably within the last 10,000 years, though light brown people have probably been around longer (though neandertals likely had red hair and were pale, but i don't know if you want call them humans).
so the "default" human setting is dark skin. but the "default" primate setting is not. like our speech or hairlessness dark skin is a human innovation.

Razib,

I've read something quite a few years ago that contradicts some of what you're saying. I read that human races only started occuring about 30,000 years aog. This article was a little "tree-hugging" and what I call "feel-good" science. It was also quite PC.

BTW, I also read that the default setting for humans is pale skin and dark hair - like chimpanzees!

Brown-Black-Oriental is the world majority...white in world terms is a minority..so why the complex for the coloured man??

Razib once again makes the best point here.

i thought your poinrt was better, suki

Brown-Black-Oriental is the world majority...white in world terms is a minority..so why the complex for the coloured man??

because of the massive power imbalance present in the modern world? The last few empires are/were all predominantly white (Britain, Russia, USA). They had many people within them who were important economically, but the power-brokers were predominantly white. The focus of power has been shifting though, from the USA, diffusing East (to the EU) and West (to China and to a lesser extent India).

Why do black americans feel downtrodden by white men? Because they are? Indians? Ever read about the British Raj? Africans? Jamaicans? Pacific Islanders? Australian Aborigines? Sure, numbers are imporant, but then, so is money . . .

I'm a white guy (as in German, Irish, Danish white), and there are a Few things to apologise for. At least our Australian 'dear leader' Kevin Rudd did Something about the past when he apologised. There have been some Pretty messed up things done by those who speak the Queen's English (or the King's, depending on what decade). Not that most nations as a whole aren't above a good bit of slaughter now and then, but I don't speak for them, I'm a white guy.

I'm a white guy (as in German, Irish, Danish white), and there are a Few things to apologise for.

Yay, white guilt!!!!!!!!

Razib said: "genuinely pale humans are recent, probably within the last 10,000 years, though light brown people have probably been around longer"

So, pale white Europeans are the highest evolution of our species?

I keed. I keed.

Interspersing the vid with pics of white girls like the neo-Nazi tween folk group (twins with Hitler smiley face t-shirts) is needlessly inflammatory. The internalized racism of African-Americans can be blamed on white media to a large extent, but last time I checked Bollywood is run be desis. Indian 'fair skin" color preference predates European colonialism and I have no doubt Hollywood/European media are more open to representative examples of Indian beauty than Indian media are

While Obama's victory does not change the economic position of African-Americans I hope it does bring about rapid changes in how kids view themselves

Why do black americans feel downtrodden by white men? Because they are? Indians? Ever read about the British Raj? Africans? Jamaicans? Pacific Islanders? Australian Aborigines? Sure, numbers are imporant, but then, so is money . . .

I'm a white guy (as in German, Irish, Danish white), and there are a Few things to apologise for. At least our Australian 'dear leader' Kevin Rudd did Something about the past when he apologised. There have been some Pretty messed up things done by those who speak the Queen's English (or the King's, depending on what decade). Not that most nations as a whole aren't above a good bit of slaughter now and then, but I don't speak for them, I'm a white guy.

Hmmmm.... I think Ju Ju Mama gets it right here, in the Quantum Perspective on the African Slave Trade - Finding Love - Healing Humans

Though Australia's gesture is certainly commendable. I hope it doesn't feed further into dysfunction (like the US welfare system does) but can actually serve to empower people in a real, concrete way.

I don't get whats wrong with what saying israeli's are competing against nazi's

You've got to be kidding, right?

The Nazi's thought that they were purifying the human race by shoving Jews, the mentally challenged, gypsies, etc. into ovens.

Isrealis think that they are protecting themselves from Hamas when they fight. You could argue that they are "defending" themselves too aggresively but comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is just B.S.

Indian 'fair skin" color preference predates European colonialism

But does it predate the conquest of India by the relatively fair skinned muslim invaders? The indian epics/puranas tell us that in ancient times the bias was in favor of dark/black skin: Rama, Krishna, Draupadi et all are all described as kalas.

Indians have been an abjectly defeated race for a very long time and even after "independence" the servile mentality of a subjugated race continues to define and demean the indian psyche.

relatively fair skinned muslim invaders

Bulleh Shah,
Haven't you read your Congress-approved Indian history books? Muslims were not invaders, they were tourists blown off course, who became very popular with the locals and had many, many willing and unforced converts!
;-)

So, pale white Europeans are the highest evolution of our species?

Well, based on his blog that does seem to be the judgement of our resident euro-obsessed geneticist. Pretty ignorant when you consider that the northern blond race he lusts after were considered barbarians by the greeks and romans; and many of whom were enslaved by "less evolved" mongols, arabs and turks for centuries.

Well, based on his blog that does seem to be the judgement of our resident euro-obsessed geneticist. Pretty ignorant when you consider that the northern blond race he lusts after were considered barbarians by the greeks and romans; and many of whom were enslaved by "less evolved" mongols, arabs and turks for centuries.

Yeah, but just look how far they've come.

The only constant in this world is change.

Fair and Lovely Skin-Lightening Cream Ad

Dark & Lovely

Kala Bane Ga

Hum Kaale Hai To Kya Hua

Some white/pink people actually think I got a awesome skincolor. I smile/laugh when I see arabs and turks who have taken alot sun tanning to get that skincolor I got.
For those aryan/nazi believing people "try to compare the runic alphabets vs sanskrit and see who is most advanced" Pinky Please!

Dude WTF!

If you dont like me for my skincolor.. you just lost a friend.

Brown&Proud/Dark&Lovely

For those aryan/nazi believing people "try to compare the runic alphabets vs sanskrit and see who is most advanced" Pinky Please!

But the thing is, Pinkies don't harp on about the past. Pinkies don't give a damn which civilization was the most advanced 1, 2, 3, or 13,000 years ago.

For such type of conversations you have to engage with Dravidians, Arya Samajees, 2012 psychics, Moors, 5%ers, 777ers and KMTians.

Pinkies are all about the here and now and even more than that - the future.

Isrealis think that they are protecting themselves from Hamas when they fight

Israel is not protecting themselves from Hamas -- Hamas is protecting itself from Israel, which displaced and destroyed existing arab villages to make way for Israel. Hamas came into existence as a counter to Israel's continued encroachment on what is left of palestine. Israel continues to destroy Arab homes and replacing them with homes and settlements for Jews only, Jews who are of European descent almost exclusively.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8020825.stm

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LO377494.htm

Has anyone here read White Teeth with Zadie Smith? Razib reminds me of Dr. Sick and Magid from the book. He has the anglophilia masking as science thing going.

existing arab villages

How did those villages in Israel become "arab," being outside of Arabia? More Muslim tourists who lost their way and became popular with the locals?

How did those villages in Israel become "arab,"

When did it become Jewish? Why not pave Israel over for some dark skinned Congolese?

Well, Lulu, one needs justified principles of acquisition and transfer in property--neither the Congolese nor the Arabs have a legitimate claim on Israel, I'm afraid. Nor the Turks on Turkey, but that's another story.

Has anyone here read White Teeth with Zadie Smith? Razib reminds me of Dr. Sick and Magid from the book.

my vote is for Hari Kunzru's The Impressionist Though the fictional character had an easier time passing, and moved in a social circle more upscale than Steve Sailer &Co, there is a resemblance.

There Are No Villains - There are No Victims

Racial Harmony Abounds… It’s a New Day. It’s a New Time. In full respect for our ancestors we humbly release the perceived ‘pain’ of the past and embrace the triumph. As human beings we are observers, thus choosers of our individual and collective realities. The basis of every choice is essentially love. We are here learning to experience love and joy which are never possible without challenge and perceived conflict.

War is not separate from Quantum Reality:

We are spiritual beings having human experiences - Life is illusion - Energy Based - Maya

We chose our experiences for the purpose of learning love

We are reflecting one another at all times - we are ONE

What you see in me is what you have in you, and vice versa, at all times

There is no such thing as ‘good’ or ‘evil’ - Life IS

We respect all things, peoples and experiences

We created all things, peoples and experiences

We honor ourselves - we created the past

We honor ourselves - we create the eternal NOW

No Victims - No Villains

We Are All ONE - All Things Being Possible

NotEvenPrema on May 25, 2009 03:10 PM · Direct link

my vote is for Hari Kunzru's The Impressionist Though the fictional character had an easier time passing, and moved in a social circle more upscale than Steve Sailer &Co, there is a resemblance.

neither the Congolese nor the Arabs have a legitimate claim on Israel, I'm afraid

But then rob, from what i can tell from your comments here, history, or even reality, for that matter, are not your strong points.

Lulu,
Notice that I didn't say that the Jews have a legitimate claim to the land; I merely pointed out that one can't plausibly claim that the Arabs do. Why should my heart bleed when I see "unarmed" Arabs driven off of land that they took by force of arms. . . .

Rob,

Looks like you really need to read up on the history of the Middle East.. The Arabs in Palestine have been living there for generations.. and are the descendants of the 'indigenous' population.

Screw the term “light-skinned pretty”— I say we bring on “brown-skinned pretty.”

A more humane alternative would be to embrace all skin tones, a discernment that might escape somebody who fills their head with Humble's "smart lyrics just put him on another level." He wouldn't make a song called "Shout-outs to _____ Girls" Or would he?

Same cracker
Different suit
I'm sorry folks that's an inconvenient truth
Fuck Obama
-Humble the Poet

I know Canadian rappers have to try harder but come on. He sounds like a pasty suburban Canadian...oh wait.

DesiInDC,
I know they've been there for generations; what doesn't logically follow is that their claim to the land is therefore more "legitimate" than that of those who were forcibly displaced, err--"generations" ago.
It might be that they have a plausible claim, but the underlying theory of legitimacy in property acquisition and transfer needs to be laid out; it's not enough to (just) point to occupation of land for some generations to say your claim is better than somebody's else.

yeah, i've been called magid before. lol ;-)

p.s. east asians also developed lighter skin and their relatively thick straight hair recently (again, the genes are known).

it's not enough to (just) point to occupation of land for some generations to say your claim is better than somebody's else.

Deuteronomy chapter 4;In or Out?

Screw the term “light-skinned pretty”— I say we bring on “brown-skinned pretty.”

White and black people have already brought that on, a long time ago, in fact.

Its no secret that a lot black men are really into desi women and its no secret that a lot of white men are into both east asian and south asian women. They find these women and their skin tones attractive, sexy, alluring, yada yada yada.

There are also plenty of white women who find desi dudes and their skin tones attractive.

It seems to be browns who don't find other browns sexy.

Pretty ignorant when you consider that the northern blond race he lusts after were considered barbarians by the greeks and romans; and many of whom were enslaved by "less evolved" mongols, arabs and turks for centuries.

Prema, do you seriously think anyone takes all the above socio-historic bullshit into account when deciding what they find PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE!!??

Prema, do you seriously think anyone takes all the above socio-historic bullshit into account when deciding what they find PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE!!??

You mean like the kiddies in the 1st video? Fast forward 15 years when they are young adults dating. if the same choice is made, how does it magically become preference vs internalized racism?

You mean like the kiddies in the 1st video? Fast forward 15 years when they are young adults dating. if the same choice is made, how does it magically become preference vs internalized racism?

So, you're against inter-racial relationships as well? Wow.

Talk to any person who dates consistenly out of their race. In most cases it has nothing to do with skin color at all, or power issues associated with that skin color.

do you seriously think anyone takes all the above socio-historic bullshit into account when deciding what they find PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE!!??

Looks like a touched a raw nerve with the wannabe "scythian" (talk about socio-historic bullshit), who is as obsessed with looks as any teenage girl :)

I was responding to the (sarcastic) point about northern europeans being the pinnacle of human evolution. What part of that couldn't you understand? Also, its typical of trolls to call bullshit without making any points showing why its bullshit. Are you denying that northern europeans were considered barbarians by the ancient southern europeans, or that many of them, in particular the Slavs, were never enslaved? The very word Slav should teach you something.

Either make your case with facts and rational arguments or STFU.

So, you're against inter-racial relationships as well?

I didn't say that. I have no problem with interracial dating/ marriage. Everyone, no matter their view on IR marriage etc. finds something wrong with the doll test- and makes some value judgments about the kids making the choice and their home environment (as well as the larger society).

I just don't see how all of that judgment magically disappears and is termed preference once a person is older and makes consistently the same choice in real life.

Its no secret that a lot black men are really into desi women and its no secret that a lot of white men are into both east asian and south asian women. They find these women and their skin tones attractive, sexy, alluring, yada yada yada.

Black and white men are into all kinds of women but to claim that they are into south asian women like they are into east asian (or southeast asian) women is complete BS. The data on dating and inter-marriage proves otherwise.

Humble is relatively new to the scene,
so there isn't much info on him
but i heard him talk about writing and how he goes about it
and i've realized he's a student of the art and science of communication
and he's constantly working hard to improve
there was a time when he was posting new verses on his website on a daily basis,
that kinda work ethic isn't very common,
its scary to see how far he's come in such a short time, so if he keeps pushing the way he's been pushing,
i think we'll hear big things from him in the near future

Black and white men are into all kinds of women but to claim that they are into south asian women like they are into east asian (or southeast asian) women is complete BS. The data on dating and inter-marriage proves otherwise.

This is largely due to desi and east asian women who will not date black or white, and desi and east asian women who will date white or black on the downlow but will not marry them.

But believe me, black and white men are on them like white on rice. Whether or not they get reciprocated is another thing. Especially desi women with their tradition of arranged marriage often opt to go their traditional route when it comes to marriage, leaving several brothers and white men holding the bag (in more ways than one), and crying their eyes out.

I think its even been mentioned on this site the "exotification" that desi women feel directed to them from white and black men. This means that white and black men find them and their skin PRETTY. So since the original statement was...

Screw the term “light-skinned pretty”— I say we bring on “brown-skinned pretty.”

... I think its fair to say that this concept has already been "brought on". However, perhaps brown men have not joined the bandwagon. If not, that is their problem.

There are plenty of other men who find brown skin "pretty".

Taz! Thanks for following the link! Humble is a talented dude...

but last time I checked Bollywood is run be desis. Indian 'fair skin" color preference predates European colonialism and I have no doubt Hollywood/European media are more open to representative examples of Indian beauty than Indian media are

Parminder Nagra is someone who is thought of more beautiful by people in Hollywood then she ever would be among the Bollywood elite.

This is largely due to desi and east asian women who will not date black or white, and desi and east asian women who will date white or black on the downlow but will not marry them.

You seem to be hell bent on equating the "prettiness" or desirability of desi and east asian women to westerners, regardless of the facts on the ground. This is nothing but the pathological tendency to wishful self-delusion that afflicts way too many desis.

There is no doubt whatsoever that white men much prefer women from the far east to women from the indian subcontinent. And white women are far more likely to have relationships with men with african ancestry than with men from south asia. Just deal with the facts like an adult. You are in denial and resorting to lies in claiming equal "prettiness" in foreign eyes. What purpose does burying your head in the sand and imagining things serve?

Now I expect you to be the typical irrational desi in your defence by giving anecdotes as proof. Wont work. Show some actual data.

Parminder Nagra is someone who is thought of more beautiful by people in Hollywood then she ever would be among the Bollywood elite.

Yeah, and that woman who starred in Missippii Masala.

One of my black male friends thought that she would be considered a "classic Indian beauty". NOT.

He said he loved her full, sensuous lips. I said in India her lips would not be considered sensuous and her features would not be considered "classic" nor "beautiful".

He also dated an Indian girl who he thought was bangin' but he said to me, "I get the feeling that for some reason she's not considered attractive in her community." My first question to him was "is she dark?"

And then there's Freida Pinto. Not gorgeous by Indian standards.

This is nothing but the pathological tendency to wishful self-delusion that afflicts way too many desis.

prema dude, i believe the pathologicaly deluded individual to which you refer is in fact a white woman, ie pardesi gori.

There is no doubt whatsoever that white men much prefer women from the far east to women from the indian subcontinent. And white women are far more likely to have relationships with men with african ancestry than with men from south asia. Just deal with the facts like an adult. You are in denial and resorting to lies in claiming equal "prettiness" in foreign eyes. What purpose does burying your head in the sand and imagining things serve?

I don't quite get what you're aiming at here, the way you have phrased things. My only point is that brown skin is definetly considered pretty by a lot of black and white men. Whether or not this translates into brown women dating, jumping-off, and/or marrying these white and black men, I don't know.

But the white and black men are definetly lusting after them. Especially black men tend to love them some some West Indian curry, which they seem to have better luck with than East Indian roti.

And that's not ALL black and white men obviously.

Just let it be known that brown IS considered exotic, pretty and sexy but a lot of dudes. Hopefully you are one of them.

Just let it be known that brown IS considered exotic, pretty and sexy but a lot of dudes.

Should read:

BY a lot of dudes...

In my experience more black than white men lust for desi women. Of course, that does not translate into desi women dating, sleeping with or marrying black men, and I never stated that it did. I'm just saying that black men DO find desi skin pretty.

What do you have against this and what are you arguing over, Bulleh Shah?

Is your kalam really mightier than the sword?

Yeah, and that woman who starred in Missippii Masala. One of my black male friends thought that she would be considered a "classic Indian beauty". NOT.........He also dated an Indian girl who he thought was bangin' but he said to me, "I get the feeling that for some reason she's not considered attractive in her community." My first question to him was "is she dark?" And then there's Freida Pinto. Not gorgeous by Indian standards.

FYI dear deluded ostrich, indian women are overwhelmingly dark-skinned. Just like indian men.

If "gorgeous by indian standards" to you means a look and color that is rare in India, as I suspect from your posts, then you just made my point about indian servility and self-loathing.

FYI dear deluded ostrich, indian women are overwhelmingly dark-skinned. Just like indian men.

If "gorgeous by indian standards" to you means a look and color that is rare in India, as I suspect from your posts, then you just made my point about indian servility and self-loathing.

Well, then maybe I did make your point for you. If so, your welcome. I am not arguing that Indians are dark. I am not arguing that most Indians are light skinned. I am simply saying that BROWN SKIN is indeed considered "pretty" by many people in this world, even though it may not be considered "pretty" by many of the people who have it.

So, um, we are on the same page, right?

Regarding Mississippi Queen, it's not just her skin tone I was referring to but her overall "look", I do not think would go over well in Indian cinema.

Proud Mary Keep On Rollin'

Regarding Mississippi Queen, it's not just her skin tone I was referring to but her overall "look", I do not think would go over well in Indian cinema.

Her skin tone, and Frieda Pinto's, are actually light by indian standards. You, mr. ostrich, are just another pitiful desi fool whose head has been screwed up by Bollywood. What you are doing so shamelessly is insulting the great majority of desi women.

There is no doubt whatsoever that white men much prefer women from the far east to women from the indian subcontinent

And white women are far more likely to have relationships with men with african ancestry than with men from south asia

Show some actual data

FYI dear deluded ostrich, indian women are overwhelmingly dark-skinned. Just like indian men

indian servility and self-loathing

As I say everytime I see you, why don't you slither away and celebrate your national humiliation day?

zà i jià n

I'm not insulting desi women! I'm saying that there are plenty of men in this world who find desi women pretty, exotic and sexy! Where's the insult?

Glolious Mothelland?

Drunk on toddy mr lupus? (what kind of guy uses a disease for his nick anyway?)

Try using spell check. This isn't one of them boards where the posters understand all the mocking acronyms and "clever" misspellings of your ghetto hindutva hinglish :-)

"BTW, I also read that the default setting for humans is pale skin and dark hair - like chimpanzees!"

for what it's worth, chimps are born pale but get darker. Some remain fairly pale under the hair, while others get dark. Chimpanzees, in fact, display a color continuum similar to that of the human race. The reason we don't realize this is because the vast majority of chimps used in entertainment, as pets, even in zoos and animal parks, are very young. Once a chimp passes the age of 7 or 8 (they reach puberty at about 10-14) , they become unmanageable and very dangerous. Adult chimps are NEVER used as entertainment.
anyway, most of the chimps we are likely to have seen are very young and have a different phenotype and usually color, than they will eventually have.
How much they have to do with humans genetically, I don't know. I know Darwin's theory of evolution says human evolved from apes--but what apes? Chimps are never going to change. 50,000 years from now they'll be the same. So I don't think any of the known species of animal primates are good reference points for "default" human characterisitcs.

what kind of guy uses a disease for his nick anyway?

This isn't one of them boards where the posters understand all the mocking acronyms and "clever" misspellings

Doctors use diseases as their nicks? Lol. Methinks you are a liar.

Why didnt you pick a mental disease for your nick? That would be far more appropriate than lupus :)

what kind of guy uses a disease for his nick anyway?

FYI dear deluded ostrich, indian women are overwhelmingly dark-skinned. Just like indian men.

There is plenty of self-loathing around, of that I am sure, but what do you expect when the country is barely a generation removed from actually being a subjugated colony?

There is plenty of self-loathing around, of that I am sure, but what do you expect when the country is barely a generation removed from actually being a subjugated colony?

The thing is, Bulleh Shah wants desi women to self-loathe to the point that they think the whole world thinks they are ugly and therefore they have to confine themselves solely to the arrangement of their parents. The fact is, desi women and brown skin are found attractive the world over and desi women have a choice now.

Sorry guys, but dats whats up.

Are you denying that northern europeans were considered barbarians by the ancient southern europeans, or that many of them, in particular the Slavs, were never enslaved? The very word Slav should teach you something.

This has nothing to do with whether they are good-looking or not.

17 · Taz on May 24, 2009 11:06 PM · Direct link Crap is relative. For instance, as much as I respect Jahcoozi, (and I do have a couple of her songs and we did blog about her plenty already on SM, and we've NEVER blogged about this guy before) when her song comes up on my ipod shuffle, I tend to press skip and go to the next song. If humble poet came on, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't press skip. Thus, if skipping songs are any indication of CRAP, then to me, Jahcoozi is CRAP. And Humble the Poet isn't.

Like I said, Builder, crap is relative. And yours is tinged with elitist blipster.

(no.)

1) humans developed dark skin more 1 million years ago, probably when we lost our fur.

Then how do you explain Robin Williams?

i do wish that people could engage in anti-prejudice and anti-racism consciousness raising without being anti-white. just because you think black or brown is beautiful doesn't mean that white isn't alright.

But whitey is evil. Most people here blame whitey when they really should being blaming there parents for immigrating to these god awful place like Canada, United States, United Kingdom, Australia or some of the other Western European Countries. What were they thinking when they chose to move to places where evil whitey made up the majority of the population. It sad many of us had grow up in these hellholes.

Why couldn't our parents who left India instead of move to some great places instead like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, or Bangladesh. For one thing there are very few white people there, plus those places would have welcomed us with open arms and should for any unseen reason we experience any prejudice, those countries have many things set up for us to deal with the very rare racist remark we would experience there and the governments are known for treating people from India like they are part of there own family.

Suki Dillon wrote:

Why couldn't our parents who left India instead of move to some great places instead like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, or Bangladesh. For one thing there are very few white people there

You mean very few European people.
All of the countries you listed (except for Bangladesh) are populated by Arabs and Scythians, who consider themselves to be "white."

It might be that they have a plausible claim, but the underlying theory of legitimacy in property acquisition and transfer needs to be laid out; it's not enough to (just) point to occupation of land for some generations to say your claim is better than somebody's else.

Why couldn't our parents who left India instead of move to some great places instead like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, or Bangladesh. For one thing there are very few white people there, plus those places would have welcomed us with open arms and should for any unseen reason we experience any prejudice, those countries have many things set up for us to deal with the very rare racist remark we would experience there and the governments are known for treating people from India like they are part of there own family.

not sure if you were being facetious, but it seems like indians might be at more of a disadvantage in some of those countries than in the western countries you named. your argument is couched in terms of race, but there are several other factors upon which inequality can be based. for instance, you've named 5 islamic countries,under many of whose laws non-muslims are just not treated with the same rights as muslims. i'm glad my parents moved me to a country where i actually have a CHANCE at equal rights. not to mention, quite frankly, that as imperfect as the legal rights systems are in the western countries you named, they are based,to a great extent, on a theory of equality. even if that is not always played out, it's better than a system that starts off with inequality or does not hold itself up to such a standard in practise.

ak,
Well, one nice example that has the result of problematizing nearly all claims to legitimate holdings in (real) property would be Locke's proviso that one leave "as much and as good" behind. I.e., I might, through cultivation, building roads and dams, etc. (the so-called "mixing" of labor with the land), be able to establish legitimate rights in 10% of my island, but my claim on the remaining 90% is problematic when hordes of refugees show up! So, even the Native Americans may have taken "too much" if they claim legitimate holdings in all of the Americas.
Ultimately, it's really difficult to justify wide-ranging claims to land (which somewhat uncomfortably puts us in some sort of pragmatic zone where appeals to principle are illegitimate when we have multiple groups contesting)--Nozick, for example, explicitly avoids defining principles of acquisition, and ridicules Locke by pointing out that "mixing" his glass of orange juice with the ocean doesn't give him ownership of the sea; it just means he lost his glass of juice. ;-)

I.e., I might, through cultivation, building roads and dams, etc. (the so-called "mixing" of labor with the land), be able to establish legitimate rights in 10% of my island, but my claim on the remaining 90% is problematic when hordes of refugees show up! So, even the Native Americans may have taken "too much" if they claim legitimate holdings in all of the Americas.

Of course the entire rationale behind leaving natural preserves is that mankind cannot improve upon them and any attempts to try will only mar their pristine beauty.

3 · Catholic Guilt on May 24, 2009 12:07 AM · Direct link watching the kids with the dolls at the end was just crushing.

I totally agree. my eyes start tearing up everytime the little girl says she looks like the black doll even though she has picked the white one as the nice one.

I'm watching a Gandhi documentary on http://www.globalone.tv/ with tears in eyes.

The concept that the British are not our enemies but our friends and we must liberate them along with us. That is, liberate them from the prison of their own minds which makes them think they are rulers over others.

There are no villians or victims. Is just is.

As long as one of us are bound, we are all bound. None can be freed until all are freed.

We need someone like this now, here, and everywhere. A type of social bodhisattva

Usher in the age of aquarius.

With two or three entire generations of people who grew up AFTER colonialism was long gone and subsequently started losing their self-hatred, doesn't it seem like things might slowly be changing? Would Bipasha Basu be considered a "bombshell" by the media, or Kajol have been a "superstar" 30 years ago? Even arty actress Nandita Das is considered beautiful by the mainstream. I think in previous times, those gorgeous "dark-skinned" actresses may not have been given the chance to change the ideal perception of beauty in India, which was based on thousands of years of conquest by lighter and lighter-skinned invaders. Yes, unfortunately they still do sell Fair & Lovely, but I personally don't know of any relatives or friends in India who use it...except my grandmothers who grew up during the Raj.

Skin lightening-bleaching cream-skin whitening-fade cream. Don't bleach your skin until you read this.