This is one of the best sources:
http://niacblog.wordpress.com/

Sullivan, the Lede, and HuffPo borrow heavily from there.

I think I will do a post on this tomorrow as well :)

Twitter (HT Marginal Revolution) has been informative too.

Be warned: Anyone using this thread for either anti-Muslim or anti-Hindu rhetoric will be banned without further warning. Stick to the topic of the post and do no make trollish sweeping generalizations.

but honestly, there’s still not a lot of brown in these recent events

India has a lot of trade with Iran and is actually looking to build a gas pipeline from Iran through Pakistan to India (although given the involvement of Shia Iran, Sunni Pakistan, China and India, I have no idea how realistic this is), but in general has refrained from making statements about Iran's internal politics probably to protect their trade interests.

I'm not a particularly sentimental type, but, man, those kids in Tehran standing up to the police make me proud of humanity.

On twitter, I've been following an American reporter: http://twitter.com/jimsciuttoABC
He's been right in the middle of things (and he's a friend). That said, there's all of the Iranian twittering which I just read in summary on Sullivan's blog ... it's really amazing what Twitter has done for this crisis. I don't know if it has a business model to support it, but it certainly has a social value.

it's really amazing what Twitter has done for this crisis. I don't know if it has a business model to support it, but it certainly has a social value.

I am very surprised that Iran hasn't locked it down yet. They've already banned several websites, surely it can't be that hard to ban twitter (although maybe there are email-to-twitter or other web proxies that people are using). [Unrelated: Part of Twitter's plans for a business model is to eventually charge corporations like Dell etc. for access - Dell is already using Twitter today to distribute twitter-only discount coupons for products, and Twitter hopes that other companies will eventually want to participate in similar promotions throught authenticated accounts with associated customer reports, targeting, and other services.]

My understanding is that Iran is trying to block twitter and shut down the SMS network, but they're leaving the internet up, just throttling it enough to make it hard to post photos and video. People are using proxy servers to get around the IP blocks, and they're yelling from the rooftops when they can't SMS.

I’ve been transfixed for the last three days by the news coming out of Pakistan’s neighbor to the west, Iran. And I’ve really really wanted to blog it, but honestly, there just isn’t a desi angle.

Well, I always thought Iranians could somehow fit into the "desi" category. There are parallels between the Zend Avesta and the Rg Veda. Some even say the Rg Veda came from that region (Iran and around). If you study the two ancient cultures there are parrallels.

And lets not forget the Desi Parsees - there's your angle right there!

weird fact: ayatollah khomeinis paternal grandfather spent decades in india. this resulted in the slur spread by some in the shah's intelligence service that he was of indian origin.

Rumors suggest the Iranian regime has brought in thugs from Lebanon to beat up protestors--same people that are bashing desis in Australia. It's a small world, indeed.

same people that are bashing desis in Australia

The Lebanese thugs in Australia are Hezbollah now?

A really nice account of the events in the New Yorker (from the New York branch of Iran, of course).

The scariest aspect of this is that if Ahmedinajad prevails, you are almost certainly going to see an Israeli attack on Iran. I tend to be pro-Israel, but, whoa, their attacking Iran opens up a number of really scary scenarios. Weird article in asia times attributing this to Shia/Sunni issues. Seems wrong to me but am interested if people have comments.

this is definitely Andrew Sullivan's finest moment. cnn has been lame.

The Lebanese thugs in Australia are Hezbollah now?

You never know....

weird fact: ayatollah khomeinis paternal grandfather spent decades in india. this resulted in the slur spread by some in the shah's intelligence service that he was of indian origin.

It was claimed that Ayatollah Khomeini had kashmiri ancestry. Some westernized iranian opponents of the islamic republic, who have aryan racial pretensions, post pictures of a dark/wheaten desi child and claim that was Khomeini's baby picture. These racial slurs were laughable going by Khomeini's looks and fooled no one. Actually it is Ahmadinejad who looks like he may have some indian blood.

. Weird article in asia times attributing this to Shia/Sunni issues.

rob, spengler is a liar. in that i am pretty sure he makes things up. either he makes things up, or he's stupid. just so you know (i don't disagree with all of his conclusions, but he makes a lot of things up to come to them).

and i don't mean spengler is lying in that piece. i'm saying that he lies constantly.

12 · Rahul The Lebanese thugs in Australia are Hezbollah now?

Rahul, when a desi is badly beaten and put in the hospital, why, oh, why is your first move to deny the identity of his or her attacker? You are really weird. I'm very happy that the young people in Iran are standing up for themselves; I don't think that requires you to stand up for the criminals who are bashing us in Oz.

Actually it is Ahmadinejad who looks like he may have some indian blood.

He looks totally desi. Very U.P.

Razib,
I've also thought that Spengler is wrong/bad/false. . . . so, do you have any links to nail him down? (Not that they're necessary) I've always thought that he's badly off--kind of like reading a fantasy world person! He just does not line up with real life at all!!

rob, follow the links. he is an entertaining writer, but he is producing historically grounded fantasy short stories. unfortunately unlike you most of his readers are too dumb to know any better (i used to get solicited to read an "awesome spengler column!" by my readers via email regularly before i made my lack of respect widely known).

Razib,
Just to be clear--yeah, Spengler is a fantasist. I'm embarrassed to read him, but I don't believe him at all--so, I'm totally with you!

why is your first move to deny the identity of his or her attacker

You said that "thugs from Lebanon to beat up protestors--same people that are bashing desis in Australia". Your link says that Hezbollah has been brought in, and following your logic, I am to understand that either the Lebanese thugs in Australia are Hezbollah, or that all Lebanese are Hezbollah. Which is it? Are all Lebanese essentially the same?

I don't think that requires you to stand up for the criminals who are bashing us in Oz.

Yes, my comment asking if the thugs are Hezbollah is transparently an apologia for them :) Is this a rhetorical move you learnt from Fox News?

Spengler writes;

By addressing the "Islamic world" from Cairo, Obama lends credibility to the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and other advocates of political Islam who demand that Muslims be addressed globally and on religious terms - in contradistinction to nationalists such as Mubarak. Rather than buttress a loyal ally, Obama's speech undermines him on his home ground. That is a lose-lose proposition.

There is a way to rescue the situation, which I now propose to Obama in good faith: change the venue to New Delhi. After all, India's Muslim population is the world's third-largest at 158 million, just under Pakistan's 175 million and Indonesia's 200 million. Speaking from an Indian podium, Obama could say something like this:

I have come hear to address the Muslims of the world on Indian soil to emphasize that there is life after the end of Islam's status as a state religion. As a minority, Indian Muslims have had to maintain their communal life without a link between mosque and state, and by and large they have succeeded. It has not been easy. On occasion Indian Muslims have been provoked to violence against their more numerous Hindu neighbors, as in the state of Gujarat in 2002, and the Hindu response was horrendous. India's Muslims have learned that extremists in their ranks will call vengeance down upon their communities. They demonstrated sagacity in their refusal to bury in consecrated ground the Muslim terrorists killed last year in Mumbai.

Muslims around the world should look to India as an example of moderation and co-existence. Whether they like it or not, Muslims will remain a minority in the world, a minority that cannot defend itself against the superior technology and military culture of other countries. Its legitimate aspirations must lead it to moderation and compromise. The alternative could be quite nasty.

That sort of speech would get the undivided attention of the Muslim world. Anything else will lend credibility to the Islamists and foster triumphalism. Thus far, Obama's efforts to propitiate the "Muslim world" have made the administration's future work all the harder. Iran is convinced that the administration needs it to help out in Iraq and Afghanistan, and has all the less incentive to abandon its central goal of developing nuclear weapons. Pakistan is in the midst of a bloody civil war forced upon it by the United States. After Obama leaned on the Israelis to halt settlement construction, the Palestinian Authority's President Mahmoud Abbas left Washington convinced that Obama will force out the Israeli government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu during the next two years.

For his trouble, Obama will get more bloodshed in Pakistan, more megalomania from Iran, more triumphalism from the Palestinians, and less control over Iraq and Afghanistan. Of all the available bad choices, Obama has taken the worst. It is hard to imagine any consequence except a steep diminution of American influence.

Source;

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF02Ak05.html

It was claimed that Ayatollah Khomeini had kashmiri ancestry. Some westernized iranian opponents of the islamic republic, who have aryan racial pretensions, post pictures of a dark/wheaten desi child and claim that was Khomeini's baby picture. These racial slurs were laughable going by Khomeini's looks and fooled no one. Actually it is Ahmadinejad who looks like he may have some indian blood.

He looks totally desi. Very U.P.

Don't know about totally desi, he is not as dark, but Ahmadinejad does look more indian than persian. His father was a blacksmith and gypsies have historically been blacksmiths so I wonder if his indian looks come from a gypsy background. According to Wikipedia his political opponents speculate that he has jewish roots.

Are all Lebanese essentially the same?

Rahul, you seem like an intelligent enough guy--No, obviously not all Lebanese are the same. That is why there was, for example, a civil war in Lebanon. I'm not sure why you seem to be OK with Lebanese thugs beating Iranian students in the streets in Tehran; I am against it, and if it hurts you that it's Lebanese doing the beating, so much for your knowledge of world affairs--honestly, what can I say?

10 · razib on June 16, 2009 12:02 AM · Direct link
weird fact: ayatollah khomeinis paternal grandfather spent decades in india. this resulted in the slur spread by some in the shah's intelligence service that he was of indian origin.

You're correct, Genius Razib. His g'father was named "Al-Hindi" because he was from either Lucknow, UP, or Kashmir. I actually read that he was from Lucknow, but revisionist seem to want him to come from Kashmir. IMHO, the revisionists probably think that there is more ethnic prestige in Kashmir than UP.

BTW, I've seen pics of baby Ayatollah Khomeini. He has a "rakshas" (painted beauty mole to ward off evil spirits).

Many Indian communities/castes/ethnic groups have an Iranian fetish. I've noticed that many of them claim to be Iranian in origin. However, NO Iranian groups would claim to be Indian in origin! Heck, even Freddy Mercury couldn't admit to being Indian. But look up "Kamboj" and other common surnames, and the people WANT to wish that they are Iranian.

Iranians, BTW, some times have a superiority complex to Indians/Pakis/Bangladeshis. But in colleges/univ's in USA, they are very competitive like Desis, but a little more hot-tempered.

Many Indian communities/castes/ethnic groups have an Iranian fetish. I've noticed that many of them claim to be Iranian in origin. However, NO Iranian groups would claim to be Indian in origin!

LOL, condemn my parents all you want, but they would sh*t over anyone who claimed to be Iranian. Sorry.
I have not assimilated my parents' views, so I am in favor of the Iranian student protestors. My mommy thinks I'm really dumb, but her argument doesn't go much beyond saying "Those people cannot have a nice government, they are real barbarians."

I'm not sure why you seem to be OK with Lebanese thugs beating Iranian students in the streets in Tehran

I thought I was happy about the Indians being beaten up in Australia. As for being OK about the Hezbollah, that's exactly what I said, Sean :)

Many Indian communities/castes/ethnic groups have an Iranian fetish. I've noticed that many of them claim to be Iranian in origin. However, NO Iranian groups would claim to be Indian in origin!

I know some Iranians who have never been to India, they live in USA, and they claim, "we are Indian". OK just 2. A couple who, after seeing all the similarities between the cultures declare "we were Indian before". (they are not Muslims but members of a religion which has Krishna as a quoted prophet in their holy book - B'hai faith)

They always say "we are Indian" when I meet with them.

Is it really so hard for you to imagine that Indians can resemble a whole range of ethnicities?

the same can be said of iranians fwiw.

(they are not Muslims but members of a religion which has Krishna as a quoted prophet in their holy book - B'hai faith)

that makes sense. the bahai faith is very explicitly anti-racist. i would assume that zoroastrian iranians would also have more affinity with india because of the large parsi community & the similarities between the holy books as you note above. but persians have the same attitudes toward skin color and beauty as south asians, except what would be light in south asia would be dark in iran, so you can figure out how the great chain of being would shake out.... (muslim persian iranians also sometimes admit racist attitudes toward arabs, and there has been a fair amount of cultural suppression of the arabs of khuzestan)

citation for the assertion about racism & skin color, Sons of the Conquerors: The Rise of the Turkic World. the author reports that persians are less racist against azeri turks than they might otherwise be because they acknowledge the latter's superior beauty due to light complexion.

When will somebody stand up to these Lebanese young male thugs? I'm too wimpy myself, but I am damn willing to pay to put a beating on them, in Oz, in Iran, and in the USA and Canada!

Is it really so hard for you to imagine that Indians can resemble a whole range of ethnicities?

When are you going to learn that exceptions prove the rule? A random group of iranians in India would stand out like sore thumbs and vice versa. No one with a clue would mistake a crowd picture from Iran for a crowd picture from India. Watch your TV.

When will somebody stand up to these Lebanese young male thugs? I'm too wimpy myself, but I am damn willing to pay to put a beating on them, in Oz, in Iran, and in the USA and Canada!

And from what you've shared with us elsewhere, that's not the only thing you're willing to pay for ;)

Just one question: are you married? or do you plan on marrying a desi woman?

To Razib: I think the fair skin fetish is found in all tawny to brown cultures. Only the fair skinned cultures have a brown fetish.

@ 3 · SM Intern on June 15, 2009 10:59 PM · Direct link

"Be warned: Anyone using this thread for either anti-Muslim or anti-Hindu rhetoric will be banned without further warning. Stick to the topic of the post and do no make trollish sweeping generalizations. "

So it's ok to have anti-Sikh, anti-Buddhist, anti-Jain or anti-christian rhetoric and so on? :p

Just one question: are you married? or do you plan on marrying a desi woman?

It seems more than a bit absurd to marry a Thai or Filipina bar girl, so, yes.

I am still confused by why the rigging of the election results was so hamfisted all around! Were the Iranians so spooked by the results of the election in Lebanon that they wanted to seem like they won in an overwhelming sweep?

I for one am gripped by this saga of roving bands of Lebanese thugs, beating desis and those who look like desis. y'all needs to get to the bottom of this issue.

It seems more than a bit absurd to marry a Thai or Filipina bar girl, so, yes.

Rahul: cause they lost confidence in their Lebanese thugs; understandable given the confusion in Lebanon, backlash in Oz etc.

It seems more than a bit absurd to marry a Thai or Filipina bar girl, so, yes.

That's all that's available to you for marriage - Thai and Filipina bar girls or Desi girls (bar and non)?

bubba: where did clubbable come into the pict.? Perchance you're getting confused with Lebanese thugs beating with a club?

rob, your assertions are quite close to being ridiculous. I live in Melbourne and I am frankly puzzled as to why you think Lebanese gangs are the problem here. I understand you might get your kicks trying to stir up sh*t (I don't mind sh*tstirrers at all), but seriously, Iran is going to attack Israel? Knowing fully well what would await them? Please.

I live in Melbourne and I am frankly puzzled as to why you think Lebanese gangs are the problem here.

Who's responsible for the latest attacks on desis in OZ? That still hasn't been made clear from the media coming out of the yellow brick road.

this is definitely Andrew Sullivan's finest moment.

Another coloured revolution, eh? No liberation of an oppressed people this time?

But he’s recycled, and his reform credentials are suspect, like Nawaz Sharif in Pakistan. He served as prime minister in the ’80s, during which he was implicated in a massacre of 30,000 political opponents, supported seizing hostages from the U.S. embassy

I would have thought this would have been typical of most prominent pro-Revolution figures at the time. They weren't exactly liberal reformists. Perhaps something to note is that all the major candidates support Iran's nuclearisation policy; the only difference is that Moussavi is less confrontational in his stance towards the US. He also has a better track record of economicmanagement which was his primary role as PM during the 1980s whereas Ahmadinejad's approach seems to consist of firing Central Bank governors and economic ministers who try to tell him that printing money will lead to inflation and that artificially lowering interest rates won't automatically lead to higher growth. Ahmadinejad has also interefered with the national football team and wrecked Persepolis FC, unforgivable in my eyes ;)

I know some Iranians who have never been to India, they live in USA, and they claim, "we are Indian". OK just 2. A couple who, after seeing all the similarities between the cultures declare "we were Indian before". (they are not Muslims but members of a religion which has Krishna as a quoted prophet in their holy book - B'hai faith)

LOL...I just met my plumber who came over to my apt to fix something. He asked me if I was Indian and he said (he spoke in broken English) that he was Zorastrian, "Parsee" and he went on to say "you know Parsee, you have in India". Anyways he went on to tell me there was a big Parsee community that goes to a temple around here and they are filled with Iranians and Indians. It'd be interesting to go to that temple...I mean what is the dominant language they speak, the food for events, there must be people dressed in saris mixing with people who have never wear a sari.

As for the Iranian fetish as boston mahesh goes on - I don't want to insult another group, which prevents me from saying many things to comments like the one boston mahesh says, but let's just say I haven't heard that one.

Bubba said:

abhi: thank you for the great round-up, and particularly for the link to the photos on the globe website.

I know we all look alike, but Abhi's the handsome one, I'm the quiet one.

Ennis,

If you're looking for an excellent desi perspective on the Iranian elections. Check this out

And hence you have the Iran-related post you desired!

The indian connection with iran/central asia is two fold. First, there is the historical connection Veda/Zend Avesta and the obvious pattern of immigration from central asia to india.

The second one is that of the tens of thousands of slaves taken from punjab and sindh during the islamic invasions of 1000-1200. As the original Al beruni puts it, the ground became black with the movement of hindus being taken to be sold in the marketplaces of central asia. So it wouldnt be surprised if many iranians, afghans and Uzbeks have a physical similarity to north and central indians. Unfortunately, given the circumstances they are not likely to acknowledge it - more like a matter of embarassment - as in the case of the fictional Khomeini connection.

Alberuni - weren't there 1000s of Persians used as slaves too and many of them probably would have ended up in South Asia - for the Muslim rulers? Wasn't iran conquered by the Arabs, which is why it became Islamic, but many of the population there, since they weren't Muslims were used as slaves - as was the same thing in South Asia.

So it wouldnt be surprised if many iranians, afghans and Uzbeks have a physical similarity to north and central indians.
Actually given the range of looks from north to South in India, Bangladesh and Pakistan, there would be overlap in looks thruout the subcontinent. The current Iranian president in the looks department, could easily be mistaken as Latino, Indian, Arab, and even Native American or perhaps Southern European. My plumber could easily be an Indian in India or a Latino or Iranian imo.

History of slavery in Iran -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Iran

From article:

Historians say the Arab slave trade lasted more than a millennium.[20][21]. After the Islamic conquest of Iran, Iranians were taken as slaves or so-called "mawlids" by the victorius Arabs. The Arab or Middle Eastern slave trade is thought to have originated with trans-Saharan slavery.[22][23] Arab, Indian, and Oriental traders were involved in the capture and transport of slaves northward across the Sahara desert and the Indian Ocean region into Arabia and the Middle East, Persia, Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent.[24]

After the 8th century CE, Muslim Arab and Persian traders controlled the export of East African slaves toward North Africa, Middle East and India[25]. Slavery was practiced among Arab and Persian seamen and this contributed to the commercial supply of African blacks in the Middle East for centuries[26].

Male slaves were employed as servants, soldiers, or laborers, while female slaves were traded to Middle Eastern countries and kingdoms by Arab, Indian, or Oriental traders, some as domestic servants.[27][28][29] Some historians estimate that between 11 and 17 million slaves crossed the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, and Sahara Desert from 650 to 1900 AD.[30][31]

Racist opinions occurred in the works of some Persian and Arab-Muslim historians and geographers.[32]

My mommy thinks I'm really dumb, but her argument doesn't go much beyond saying "Those people cannot have a nice government, they are real barbarians."

Rumors suggest the Iranian regime has brought in thugs from Lebanon to beat up protestors--same people that are bashing desis in Australia.

I don't believe that the Lebanese thugs bashing the desis in Australia are Hizbullah. The Lebanese Diaspora around the world is mostly Christian and they are not exactly Hizbullah.

Hizbullah members are almost all Shia in Lebanon and moslty from very poor slums of Lebanon.

The Lebanese diaspora is mostly Christian and some Sunni and Menonites.

Guys, let's keep this off Australia and Lebanese, please. I think Rob was mocking himself when he posted that earlier, but either way there's no reason to be derailed by this. This is about India and Iran.

My mommy thinks I'm really dumb, but her argument doesn't go much beyond saying "Those people cannot have a nice government, they are real barbarians."

I hope you sat down and educated your mommy on not calling Iranians barbarians considering they are ahead of Indians in every variable they use to calculate the Human Development Index. Iran is ranked 84. India is ranked 132 right after Congo and Bhutan. Bring up these statistics to mommy and see what she says.

I hope you sat down and educated your mommy on not calling Iranians barbarians considering they are ahead of Indians in every variable they use to calculate the Human Development Index. Iran is ranked 84. India is ranked 132 right after Congo and Bhutan. Bring up these statistics to mommy and see what she says.

When are you going to learn that exceptions prove the rule? A random group of iranians in India would stand out like sore thumbs and vice versa. No one with a clue would mistake a crowd picture from Iran for a crowd picture from India. Watch your TV.

Vast and diverse country.

And Razib is right that Iran is large and diverse too. So it's really more like a polka-dotted venn diagram.

As my Iranian friend's ultra-secularist father said to me yesterday, they're all equally bad. Moussavi just seems more palatable to young urban Iranians who believe he's going to fix their country's image issues . As far as the west is concerned anyway, it wouldn't be more than a cosmetic change. Western media support for Mousavi stems from the convenient belief that every conservative has to be mirrored by a liberal.

"they're all equally bad. Moussavi just seems more palatable to young urban Iranians who believe he's going to fix their country's image issues"

I heard that alot in the Obama/McCain election too. There are always people who saying politics (of any country) are useless, I guess. For the record, I am one of those idealistic young (for a few more years, anyway.)

I am still confused by why the rigging of the election results was so hamfisted all around! Were the Iranians so spooked by the results of the election in Lebanon that they wanted to seem like they won in an overwhelming sweep?

Thats part of the Obama effect I say. His ice-cool passive aggressive approach to politics drives his enemies to hysteria, resulting in them fatally overreaching. Just look at how McCain and Clinton, former masters of politics, were reduced to carooming around recklessly from one incendiary remark to another, blissfully unaware that as they did so, they were delegitimizing themselves by appearing unpresidential. My man Bam knows how to manipulate.

The Iranian regime is now effectively delegitimized. First Bam talked over various regimes heads, going directly to the people thus empowering the opposition without appearing to meddle in internal politics. No other American politician has the cunningness to walk such a tightrope.

By passive aggressively appearing conciliatory--right to wear hijab, nuke pwr, america was involved in the coup, etc--he's effectively stolen from the regime its identity: the defender of Islam from the Great Satin. Just as importantly, he's now sits back almost silently as if he had nothing to do with it, thus allowing the enemy to self-destruct without appearing to be the puppetmaster...for that could reestablish the regimes legitimacy.

meanwhile, the loyal opposition criticises Bam for being too hands-off, unaware that the best course of action is to avoid aggressive statements. in response, they blabber on with mindless platitudes about freedom and democracy. Bams a chess master while my party's still trying to figure out the checkers board.

Thats part of the Obama effect I say.

I didn't posit this only because I don't really know what the real impact of this is in the Middle East, as opposed to the constant tom-tomming of the Obama effect stateside.

Except, Obama is the poster boy for idealism.

Moussavi, on the other hand, is capitalizing on the support of people who are too young to remember his role in Iranian politics in the '80s.

I know we all look alike, but Abhi's the handsome one

Moussavi, on the other hand, is capitalizing on the support of people who are too young to remember his role in Iranian politics in the '80s.

Moussavi gets the support he does from the youth, not just because he is Ahmedinejad's opponent, but in large part due to his wife (helpfully portrayed by American media - when it feels the need to talk about Iran - as "Iran's Michelle Obama") who played a visible role in his campaign, and advocates such radical ideas as increasing the role of women in society, and making the hijab optional.

It is generally believed that Khameini had been hedging his bets in approving Moussavi as a candidate, because he wasn't seen as too radical in the event of Ahmedinejad's loss. But I am guessing that the tone of his campaign changed over time and made him a less attractive option.

manju sez:

meanwhile, the loyal opposition criticises Bam for being too hands-off, unaware that the best course of action is to avoid aggressive statements. in response, they blabber on with mindless platitudes about freedom and democracy.

From PS:

The current Iranian president in the looks department, could easily be mistaken as Latino, Indian, Arab, and even Native American or perhaps Southern European.

as opposed to the constant tom-tomming of the Obama effect stateside.

I hope you sat down and educated your mommy on not calling Iranians barbarians considering they are ahead of Indians in every variable they use to calculate the Human Development Index. Iran is ranked 84. India is ranked 132 right after Congo and Bhutan. Bring up these statistics to mommy and see what she says.

His mum is clearly unbalanced and delusional. Just like him.

The indian connection with iran/central asia is two fold. First, there is the historical connection Veda/Zend Avesta and the obvious pattern of immigration from central asia to india.

Immigration? They came as conquerors and stayed as overlords. They still have an unshakeable superiority complex towards indians and indians an inferiority complex towards them.

The second one is that of the tens of thousands of slaves taken from punjab and sindh during the islamic invasions of 1000-1200. As the original Al beruni puts it, the ground became black with the movement of hindus being taken to be sold in the marketplaces of central asia. So it wouldnt be surprised if many iranians, afghans and Uzbeks have a physical similarity to north and central indians. Unfortunately, given the circumstances they are not likely to acknowledge it - more like a matter of embarassment - as in the case of the fictional Khomeini connection.

Yes, tons of hindus were enslaved by the muslim invaders and sold cheap in the slave markets of Kabul, Samarkand, Bukhara, Baghdad and other places. Ahmadinejad could be partly descended from indian slaves for all we know.

Indian ex-diplomat Bhadrakumar has an excellent article on the behind-the-scene power struggle between the top mullahs of Iran that explains what is going on in Iran better than any other article I have read.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF16Ak05.html

Dilip,
Thanks for the link to the Bhadrakumar article--it's really provocative--I'm not sure what to think, to be honest. I guess I just don't have enough context to have a sense of whether that's correct.. I did know that Rafsanjani's family has a huge network of businesses.

I think Rob was mocking himself when he posted that earlier

Yes, Ennis, I was! Sorry to anyone who didn't pick up on that!

I'm not usually Pollyanna-ish, but just imagine how much better the world would be with a normal gov't in Iran--you'd get rid of the risk of Israel attacking them, with whatever chain-reaction that might set off, you'd have more peace in Lebanon w/out the mullahs funding Hezbollah, it would be really great! I've got my fingers crossed!

That depends on the part of India you're talking about. They would not be at all out of place in a Parsee community, for example. Or even a Kashmiri one come to think of it. Vast and diverse country.

1. Parsis number around 100,000 in India which has a population of 1.170.000.000. They are a vanishingly miniscule percentage of India's population

2. Kashmir's population of almost 8 million is way less than 1% of India's total population and they are mostly muslims who do not consider themselves part of India and who are in the midst of a long struggle for independence from India.

When are you going to learn to think rationally?

It shows how clueless the western media is for painting this as a revolution against theocracy when in reality this is a power struggle between two factions within the iranian theocracy. It is a struggle between the Ayatollahs: Khamenei vs Rafsanjani.

1. Parsis number around 100,000 in India which has a population of 1.170.000.000. They are a vanishingly miniscule percentage of India's population

2. Kashmir's population of almost 8 million is way less than 1% of India's total population and they are mostly muslims who do not consider themselves part of India and who are in the midst of a long struggle for independence from India.

(P.S. There are a lot of Hindu Kashmiris, they just don't happen to live in Kashmir anymore.)

This video, "Protester Embrace Police," brought a tear to my eye.

Are Parsis Indian or not?

They are Desi, as far as I am concerned.

#75 Dilip,

Immigration? They came as conquerors and stayed as overlords. They still have an unshakeable superiority complex towards indians and indians an inferiority complex towards them.

Iranians did not rule in India at anytime. The Delhi Sultanate and the Mughals were Turkic from Central Asia who did use the Persian language though. Nadir Shah of Iran did opportunistically raid Delhi and looted and killed, but went back. So did Ahmed Shah Abdali who succeeded Nadir Shah, but he was a Pashtun.

The few Iranians I have met were very respectful and always spoke well of India. Try a few articles like this. As for Indians having an inferiority complex it must be something personal on your part or the area of India where you come from. Most Indians especially in the South (except for Hyderabad and Bangalore where many study) are unaware of Iran to hold any views on them except as part of the Muslim world. Many Iranians in India did vote in these elections though.

Are Parsis Indian or not?

who cares what they are? i just toss 'em aside and dig right into my steak.

83 · Naattaan
Iranians did not rule in India at anytime. The Delhi Sultanate and the Mughals were Turkic from Central Asia who did use the Persian language though. Nadir Shah of Iran did opportunistically raid Delhi and looted and killed, but went back. So did Ahmed Shah Abdali who succeeded Nadir Shah, but he was a Pashtun.
The few Iranians I have met were very respectful and always spoke well of India. Try a few articles like this. As for Indians having an inferiority complex it must be something personal on your part or the area of India where you come from. Most Indians especially in the South (except for Hyderabad and Bangalore where many study) are unaware of Iran to hold any views on them except as part of the Muslim world. Many Iranians in India did vote in these elections though.

Actually, according to Wiki, Nadir Shah was a Turkic speaker from Iran and not an ethnic Iranian. This is analgous to Ghazni who was also a Turk but from Afghanistan. BTW, Iranians RULED DIFFERENT PARTS OF INDIA FOR A LONG TIME. "Punjabi" is an Iranian word, and not an Indic word. They ruled Sindh and I think parts of Gujarat for a long time. I know some gujjus surnamed as "Shah" who took pride that their surname is Persian.

Also, the court language for several centuries in Delhi was Farsi (Daari dialect, and not the Persian dialect). Many of our words in Urdu have their etymologies in Farsi. As a matter of fact, there are more Farsi words than Turkic and Arabic words.

Here is something in Wiki about a Brahmin community with an Iranian fetish: "The S*******a Brahmin community of India identify themselves as having Iranian roots..."

So we see that Indans have been influenced by Iran for a while. And more over, there are many many Indian communities, including the Coorgs/Kodavus of S. India, who claim to be from Persia.

However, these days, the fastest growing religion in Iran is Hinduism!!! I've met an Iranian lady here in Boston named "Shiva".

However, these days, the fastest growing religion in Iran is Hinduism!!! I've met an Iranian lady here in Boston named "Shiva".

For #86 Yoga Fire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_minorities_in_Iran

of course this is from Wiki. Also, their population base is VERY small.

However, these days, the fastest growing religion in Iran is Hinduism!!! I've met an Iranian lady here in Boston named "Shiva".

BTW, I met an Iranian girl named "Sholey", does that mean that Bollywood is the fastest growing religion in Iran ;-)

Ennis-

for what it's worth, I say blog away anyway. There may be no "clear" Desi angle, but when the thin reed of democracy gets battered like this and the lines of communication get slammed closed- this is bad news for everyone. If nothing else, pass on what we learn in drips and drabs from friends who get calls for Tehran, the cousin who snuck out a tweet, etc. Even a revolution expressed in 150 characters is STILL a revolution- with a voice and a body and a will. And, whatever one thinks about the candidates- at least the younger electorate did something. What did the US do in 200 and 2004? Sat on its hands for 15 minutes and then went shopping. To hear is also to be a witness- and to act as the conduit for those voices is to also do shehad, if only for moment.

88 · kal on June 17, 2009 01:17 PM · Direct link
However, these days, the fastest growing religion in Iran is Hinduism!!! I've met an Iranian lady here in Boston named "Shiva".
Shiva is a common name for girls in Iran, a quick google search tell me that it means "beauty" in Persian :).
BTW, I met an Iranian girl named "Sholey", does that mean that Bollywood is the fastest growing religion in Iran ;-)

I actually met an older man who was very familiar with Bollywood who told me that his daughter is named "Sholay". "Sholay" means fire in that language, and "no", they are not fans of Amitabh Bhachchan (i.e. they wouldn't jump through a sewer system to see Amitabh like most of us and the Slumdog).

I'd like to see Indian and Iran to engage in more cultural and economic interactions.

supported seizing hostages from the U.S. embassy and wanted Salman Rushdie killed

In 1950s, more Indians migrated to Iran and settled primarily in Tehran. They consisted Sikhs and some Gujaratis. In the 1960s and early 70s, about 10,000 Indian Doctors, Engineers and Teachers moved to Iran as a response to the open policies initiated by the Shah of Iran, but most of them left Iran after the Iranian revolution.

Interesting how Sikhs and Gujartis have been able to establish themselves in places like Iran and Brazil...

Well for a long time, abut 500 years or so; the high culture of the elite in northern India was heavily influenced by Persia and regardless of religion many sections of the literrati were very Persianised. I think that most of the bureacrats and administrators that the Mughals brought with them were of Persian origin, who helped run the empire; one of the reasons, along with Sher Shah's adminsitrative reforms; why much of land revenue adminsitration of governance is still based heavily on Persian concepts and terminology.

Well for a long time, abut 500 years or so; the high culture of the elite in northern India was heavily influenced by Persia and regardless of religion many sections of the literrati were very Persianised.

Look no further than Bollywood to see the remnants of the persianized Mughal high culture. Even the look and color preferred by Bollywood is more persian/afghan than indian.

In my point of view ,human being is only Human being.we can divide them.It's just depend upon our thoughts.

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In my point of view ,human being is only Human being.we can't divide them.It's just depend upon our thoughts.

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