ennis:

i almost vomited as well when i saw this last night on hulu looking for indian movies on the site... i mean seriously? is this sanjay guy for real? and i'm sure someone out there knows him in LA...if so, is this guy for REAL?

I think this guy watches to much "Seinfeld"

Kramer gets a really dark tan, when he goes to meet the parents of his black girlfriend.

I once got circumcision in order to please my then Jewish girlfriend's parents and then had it reversed when we broke up and then when I had a Muslim girlfriend I got another circumcision, but when I met my Hindu girlfriend and I had it reversed.

And yes I did show it to the parents.

Highly cringe worthy, almost unwatchable.....

Why the focus on inter-racial relationships recently? Are you running out of ideas or is it a case of obsession?

I don't think this guy was real. It seemed to me like he was just messing around with the salon people the whole time. I have a non-desi "white" bf, but luckily my parents aren't that traditional so it wasn't a big deal. He's actually 1/8 Indian, so my dad always tells all his Indian friends, "This is XXXX, he is part Indian, you know that?!" It was a bit awkward (funny to me though) when I let it out of the bag that he is half Jamaican (about 1/4 black). To this day I remind my mother that when we get married there will be black people there and I hope she's ready. Oh, you ol' racist Indians!!

I do have a SUPER kutchi cousin who got married to a really light skinned gujarati girl and her skin color was a non-ending "joke." Who cares, she's light, get over it. His mom didn't initially approve of her "whiteness" and lack of "kutchiness."

wow.

absolutely ridiculous. sanjay seems like a total douche.

This guy can't really be like that; at least I hope not! Who in their right might would think that a white girl with a fake tan would be more acceptable than just looking normal! I doubt that the girl actually thought it looked good. She seemed to have a forced smile going on there when she came out. She was faking that enthusiasm...

this guy is a douche. more like a super-douche. i can't believe he's making her do this...you would think the girl would tell him to f*ck-off. he's either rich or he has a big....oh wait, he's indian, scratch that. she seems likes a total ditz that simply wants to play "exotic princess."

Dude Sanjaya, I would be more concerned about you meeting HER parents, after the damage Malakar did to your first name.

LOL @ ShallowThinker

This clip was utterly inane, what was the point? Does anyone have the back story?

masalawala... what's "kutchness"?

This video was too boring to watch...

And sadly, I don't see Indian parents saying someone is "too fair". I think lots of Indian Auntys and Uncles think fair always equals good.. now having a problem with non-Indians could be a problem... but I don't think it has anything to do with skin tone.

And that girl looked like crap with light hair and fake skin tan... when will the blondies learn how comical they look with fake tan?

That can't possibly be serious. The video has to be some kind of joke or punk'd kind of thing!

I'm white and my husband is Indian, and trying to make me darker never crossed either of our minds...and it obviously wasn't an issue for his family either! I was warmly welcomed, pasty whiteness and all.

desiderius, I think it's nice to see interracial relationship posts. Those of us in interracial marriages are interested in reading stories about that topic, and since the target audience of the blog includes people of South Asian descent raised in America, the issue is bound to come up.

Do you guys take Jerry Springer and his guest's antics seriously too? This guy looks like he is having fun and his 15mins of fame on E!, just like Springer's guest! He probably got paid a little too. Very lame!!

Yeah right, a california blonde with a golden tan looks more desi eh? This is obviously an attempt an humor.

yeah, its not skin color that makes one look indian. i mean, sonia gandhi fools me every time and she's as white as casper weinbeger. there's some x-factor

He could date an African American, and that way still keep the "exotic" (non-desi girl)factor for himself, and it would be easier to fool his parents that she were "desi". There, killing 2 birds with one stone. Or should I say, reviving two birds with one mouth-to-mouth recusitation technique.

What is this interracial, inter-cultural fetish trip everyone is on? There is a reason for arranged marriages and there is also a reason why they are so successful.

Go on, have your fun... but if you want to avoid divorce, better to marry someone who's parents are not divorced.

Shaadi.com .... "What is this interracial, inter-cultural fetish trip everyone is on? There is a reason for arranged marriages and there is also a reason why they are so successful.

Go on, have your fun... but if you want to avoid divorce, better to marry someone who's parents are not divorced."

Sorry. But what is the assumption? Us whities all come from families with divorced parents, hence you better stay away from us? And you are also assuming that any child who has divorced parents can't possibly manage to remain committed?

Typical stereotypes I have to face in India all the time. But guess what? My parents have been happily married for over 30 years. And they are white, and American, and they didn't get an arranged marriage! And they are not the same religion, nor are they from the same 'background'. Actually, now that I think of it, I don't think any of my friends have divorced parents... hmm... how odd, must be a statistical anomaly, right?

Actually, now that I think of it, I don't think any of my friends have divorced parents... hmm... how odd, must be a statistical anomaly, right?

According to recent statistics - right.

Your parents are in their 50s or 60s, right? That generation has less divorce. And your grand-parents' generation has even less. This current generation (people in their 40s down to 20s), well, divorce rates are very high, if they are even bothering to get married at all.

She was faking that enthusiasm...

Yeah... this was a pretty silly video.

Shaddi.com - I'm white AND my parents are divorced. Luckily, like most intelligent people, my husband's family realized that I am not my parents, nor is it reasonable to apply simply apply statistics willy-nilly to individuals.

the reason arranged marriages work so well is that the women are scared that their husband's family will burn them if they leave :-) how's that for stereotypes?

yes, there are statistical differences in divorce rates (though to be fair actually it turns out that a small number of multiple marriage people increase the divorce rate as a fraction of marriages, so the 1 out ) between societies. but both "western" and "traditional" people need to get off their high horses. from my limited experiences most couples go through very similar ups & downs.

though the generalization does seem to be true that interracial marriages end in divorce more often than intraracial marriages from the US census. but you need to look at a specific cases. as an atheist from a muslim background raised mostly among american whites who doesn't know hindi and has learned a lot about "desi" culture through this weblog, i think i might not necessarily have as many tensions with my white atheist future in-laws than i would if i married into a brown family with religious values and stuff.

be a bayesian and take into account priors.

p.s. the video seems a joke to me.

though the generalization does seem to be true that interracial marriages end in divorce more often than intraracial marriages from the US census.

more specifically, the 2000 Census *did* show a higher divorce rate for mixed-racial marriages than non-mixed-racial marriages.

The video is funny. But I don't think Sanjay deserves the harsh comments. He is just trying to get his girl friend impress the parents. If you observe the video he claims he'll have his turn in the future (of meeting her parents).

How is this different from people converting to a different religion (or acting as if they convert to another religion) to get married?. My friend got married thrice, in a mosque, temple and the town hall.

Do you have a link to the video that can be watched outside the U.S.? I can't access this link. Thanks.

be a bayesian and take into account priors.

razib for the win!

I'm a US-born, US-raised daughter of Indian-born, Indian-raised Indian parents. My husband is white and my parents didn't like that I was dating at all, much less dating a white guy. But after I stuck with him for several years (and they got to know him a little), my mom realized it wasn't just a phase, and helped convince my dad that it was okay. I enjoy the interracial musings on Sepia Mutiny, whether they're about dating, the arts, fusion cuisine, or other ways that desi and other cultures connect. And if you run the stats, it's not like SM is suddenly 40% Brown Sugar/Splenda chatter.

"According to recent statistics - right.

Your parents are in their 50s or 60s, right? That generation has less divorce. And your grand-parents' generation has even less. This current generation (people in their 40s down to 20s), well, divorce rates are very high, if they are even bothering to get married at all."

Because statistics are much more important than to examine the individual people involved...

well... if we are going to base all our views of everything on statistics... let's look at these:

* India has the largest number of children (375 million) in the world, nearly 40% of its population
* 69% of Indian children are victims of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse (or read it as every 2 out of 3)
* New Delhi, the nation’s capital, has an abuse rate of over 83%
* 89% of the crimes are perpetrated by family members
* Boys face more abuse (>72%) than girls (65%)
* More than 70% of cases go unreported and unshared even with parents/family

now let's look at these for americans:

11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.

Now, let me think... 11% of Americans are currently divorced...doesn't sound like EVERYBODY to me.... but 69% of indian kids being abused.... (and 89% of those by family members!!) My goodness... where have the family values of Indians gone? Maybe ladies are staying married to their abusive/child molesting husbands so as not to ruin their status in society!?! Maybe a little divorce would be good for them.

(To those of you who are not shaadi.com.. please excuse my extensive sarcastic remarks)

Wife reminds me that most American men are circumcised as well. She should get him to bleach his hair AND get a circumcision as well, when they go to meet her parents.

Do you think when he pulled out the bindi, that she had this expression on her face like - "Ohmygosh, is he going to propose???" Then she realized it was just fake jewels on glue for forehead.

Lighter women of all races have been preferred over their darker counter parts of the same race. "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes" lighter white women are seen more desirable than the darker haired whiter women. Nordic versus Mediterranean. There is similar tension among african americans and africans. And East Asians also have same issues.

Not saying it is right, but that it is not unique to Indians.

Race relations in the US. Years ago, a group of us were having discussion on race in the US, and the topic came about to Black and White couples. One person whose father was black and mother white said something that I did not think about before, in terms of why you would see white men getting together with black women (like in Lousianna Quadroon Balls), and though not accepted as legitimate, was less inflammatory than a black man with a white woman. You would expect the usual power difference between the races, but in terms of the biracial child that could come out of black white biracial relationship, it was not seen the same.

The women of either race were seen as carrying the race of the child. A white man who had a child with a black women was seen as Whitening a potentially black child (and in racially tense America, whitening a minority child was a good thing). While a black man who had a child with a white woman was seen as Blackening a potentially white child.

Anne Rice wrote an non-Vampire book called "The Feast of All Saints," which takes place in Lousianna among the free biracial community, where black mothers would try to set their daughters up with white me (Quadroon Balls) so that each successive generation would be whiter and whiter until one generation could completely pass for white. They would discourage their black daughters from marrying other black men especially the very dark ones.

Do you think when he pulled out the bindi, that she had this expression on her face like - "Ohmygosh, is he going to propose???" Then she realized it was just fake jewels on glue for forehead.

Taz, that's exactly what I thought she was thinking...poor girl.. what a disappointment...and with that horrendous looking bindi too...couldn't he get something less gaudy ?

Interesting this notion of the mother carrying the ethnicity/race of the child, Orthodox Jews consider a child to be Jewish if the mother is Jewish. http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-16/the-hidden-jews/full

Interesting this notion of the mother carrying the ethnicity/race of the child, Orthodox Jews consider a child to be Jewish if the mother is Jewish. http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-16/the-hidden-jews/full

She should get him to bleach his hair AND get a circumcision as well, when they go to meet her parents.

That alone is not enough, even though he is quite light-skinned by indian standards he is still way too dark by european standards, so he should also paint his skin white/pink before meeting her parents. Racism/colorism works both ways after all.

well... if we are going to base all our views of everything on statistics... let's look at these:

You should provide a link when you bring up statistics. However your general point is valid. Indians have no business criticizing other cultures seeing how much worse in so many respects desi culture really is.

Are you sure this guy is for real? This has a candid camera feel. BTW, were the contact lenses left in the car? I guess Henry Higgins comes in all shapes and sizes. This is so eeuuuww. And think about it- what would all that stuff eventually do to her skin? What bozo in his right mind would sacrifice his gf's health (potential cancer- among others) for this? And another thought- if the parents eventually do take to her- is she going gradually go natural as they warm up? Just imagine the pictures! Here's Debbie when we net her (and hated her) and here's Debbie now (we've made our peace with the idea) - look at the difference! It's like those whitening toothpaste ads! Double eeeuw.

11% of the adult population is currently divorced. 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.

Only 11% of the United States' adult population is divorced? Are you kidding me?

I don't know anyone under the age of 65 (who has been married) who has not been divorced, and I know several over the age of 65 who have been as well.

The United states with an 11% divorce rate?

And, how can only 11% of the adult population be divorced when 25% of adult have had at least one divorce?

Dilip Kumar "You should provide a link when you bring up statistics. However your general point is valid. Indians have no business criticizing other cultures seeing how much worse in so many respects desi culture really is.

It wasn't really my intention to say that desi culture is worse, there are many things about desi culture that are admirable. And if I was seriously trying to use those statistics, I would have provided a link... my point was more about randomly throwing out statistics to validate a sweeping claim (i.e. inter-racial marriages result in divorce, or if you marry an american it will end in divorce)... hence the over exageration... though I have heard many similiar statistics on physical/sexual abuse of children in India (sadly) though I am not sure how many of those studies I would be willing to accept without seeing how they completed their research.

Also, on a more serious note regarding marriage and divorce... if we want to look at marriage as a serious commitment between two people who want to spend their lives together, I would like someone to substantiate these stereotypes I have heard that Americans don't 'take marriage seriously' (as a nice way to summarize the general point I have heard). And I think it is a sad thing if people get married without feeling the deep commitment that should come with it (if you don't feel that way, don't bother to get married!).

But I would also like to argue divorce rates in many countries (in my opinion) often seem to have to do with the rights of women. If a woman lives in a culture where she can get an education, get a job, and support herself and/or her children she would be less likely to stay in a bad relationship (such as emotionally or physically abusive, or one where the two people have become so different over time that they fight constantly) because she has the ability to make the decision "I'm not going to put up with this". Conversely, if a woman is in a culture where women supporting themselves is blocked or not supported, she will have less opportunity to make decisions about her future with or without her husband.

I think divorce is more than just "people not taking marriage seriously". It is more complex than that. We can't deny that in this world, relationships can become abusive (towards the wife, husband, or children), or that sometimes people just become angry and make each other miserable. If I was constantly being screamed at and put down by my partner, and had tried many different ways to reconcile the issues with my partner but the partner was unwilling to change or compromise, I would not want my child raised in such a negative and violent environment. Can we really see divorce as so bad in this light?

How much of the divorce rate in the US is really to be blamed on marriage as an institution being taken serious, versus real honest problems between the partners? If one person is not willing to make a change/compromise/stop abusing, is it really the burden of their partner to shoulder the pain and agony of living with person their whole life? And if they do, what kind of example will they be setting for their own children about relationships?

shaadi.com "I don't know anyone under the age of 65 (who has been married) who has not been divorced, and I know several over the age of 65 who have been as well."

Where did you meet all these people? A club for divorcees?

Some real statistics found here: http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

* There were approximately 2,230,000 marriages in 2005 -- down from 2,279,000 the previous year, despite a total population increase of 2.9 million over the same period.
* The divorce rate in 2005 (per 1,000 people) was 3.6 -- the lowest rate since 1970, and down from 4.2 in 2000 and from 4.7 in 1990. (The peak was at 5.3 in 1981, according to the Associated Press.)
* The marriage rate in 2005 (per 1,000) was 7.5, down from 7.8 the previous year.
* In 2004, the state with the highest reported divorce rate was Nevada, at 6.4 (per 1,000). Arkansas was a close second, with a divorce rate of 6.3, followed by Wyoming at 5.3. The District of Columbia had the lowest reported divorce rate, at 1.7, followed by Massachusetts at 2.2 and Pennsylvania at 2.5. (Figures were not complete for California, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Louisiana, or Oklahoma.)
* 8.1% of coupled households consist of unmarried heterosexual partners, according to The State of Our Unions 2005, a report issued by the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University. The same study said that only 63% of American children grow up with both biological parents -- the lowest figure in the Western world.
* As of 2003, 43.7% of custodial mothers and 56.2% of custodial fathers were either separated or divorced. And in 2002, 7.8 million Americans paid about $40 billion in child and/or spousal support (84% of the payers were male).
* Americans tend to get married more between June and October than during the rest of the year. In 2005, August had the most marriages at about 235,000 or a rate of 9.3 per 1,000 people. The previous year, July was the highest month at 246,000, or a rate of 9.9; this doubled the lowest month in 2004, January.

(Sources: U.S. Census Bureau, National Center for Health Statistics)

The same study said that only 63% of American children grow up with both biological parents -- the lowest figure in the Western world.

How sad.

So if 11% of the adult population is currently divorced and 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime, how do these figures add up?

63% of children grow up with both parents, yet only 11% are divorced... so the rest would be (unmarried) baby's mamas and baby's daddies and some parents who died?

I'm still not getting how 11% of the adult population is currently divorced yet 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime. Help?

11% of adults are CURRENTLY divorced. (I am not saying these statistics are correct, since I used them in jest, but let's pretend they are for the moment)

so if you are CURRENTLY divorced, then it doesn't not include people who are remarried. It does not include unmarried adults.

Like I said, I can't say those statistics are correct, since I used them in jest (I grabbed them off a random internet site to fulfill my point about statistics).

but if you look at the ones I take from a legitimate source, you can see that per 1,000 people, 3.6 are divorced. (This is of the entire population, not just married people)

So if you changed that to a percentage, 0.36% of Americans (of the ENTIRE population) are divorced.

How sad, indeed.

Is Dilip Kumar prema??

LinZi,

You are trying to obfuscate the real numbers, which shows a defensiveness that is telling. We are not talking about the entire population unless now kids are getting married and divorced. Also, please don't pull that line that women who are empowered get divorced. That is just another way of saying that White women are enlightened so they get out of marriages while brown girls are enslaved. I see that attitude of superiority among white women often: if a white man marries an Asian, it must be because they like submissive women who are essentially servants. Don't insult us.

Saadi.com, the divorce rate for first marriages is about 47%, 67% for second marriages and about 74% for third marriages. Google it, and it is everywhere. The numbers come from the US census report. Divorces among Asian couples is about 3% and it goes up to 20% when it comes to interracial marriages, which is still less than the national average. The national divorce rate would be higher, presumably, if we notice that more and more couples are cohabitating (not getting married at all). There was a study released about a month ago and I don't remember where I saw it (on Salon.com, I think), but the number of children born to single White mothers (cohabitating partners who split) is over 50%. In the Black community, it is about 75%.

LinZi, what does abused children have to do with this? What number of White kids are sexually or physically molested (by stepfathers or mothers' boyfriends)? What number of women are raped in America, per minute? What is the domestic violence rate in America?

I work with high school white kids, and a full 70% of them are on Adderol or Ritalin or antidepressants. They eat TV dinners and are obese. Most of them are having unprotected sex as early as 13, and more than half the population under 16 have some kind of STD. HPV is so common, I had a student just brush it off like it was like a way of life. Alcohol and drugs are a major problem among American youth, and education and motivation are a joke. There is no parent at home overseeing these kids in most cases. It is worse in inner cities.

Try teaching in a high school and see how quickly you realize what a mess this upcoming generation is. Don't be fooled by the veneer of wealth in America--there is something stinking at its core. If the emotional problems I see in these high school kids is any indication, there is much to worry.

I know a teacher who proclaimed that she doesn't cook. I asked if her husband cooks. No. She talked about how women are not tied to the stove anymore and are liberated She has a 7 year old and a 4 year old. Guess what they are eating? Processed frozen and fast food. I call that abuse by feminist neglect.

I have no problem with interracial relationships. I do have a problem with how White women talk about Asian women as if they are servants.

If there are desis here who encourage marriage within their people for WHATEVER REASON, that is none of your business. Even if we have problems in our culture, that doesn't mean that marrying outside the culture is bad. Nor does it mean that desis marrying within are ignorant and unintelligent.

Yeah, I agree with comment #12 that it looked like the couple was trying to make some sort of joke (a joke that failed badly). I kept waiting for someone to jump out and say "Gotcha!" to the tanning salon staff. Too weird.

@shaadi.com - please stop already with the generalizations and try to open your mind just a bit! :-) Even if there are statistics showing certain trends there are so many exceptions. Marriage is a complex relationship that is different for each couple.

I'm part of a couple under 65 where both parties have never been divorced. I'm 48 and my husband is 57. I'm white, born and raised in the USA. He's from India and has lived here since graduate school (late 1970s). We've been happily married for 24 years.

Shared values and life goals, not shared background, is what makes or breaks a marriage in my opinion. There are plenty of white American males around but most of them would have been a terrible match for me. It doesn't matter that much what color you are or what country you are from or whether your parents are divorced. What matters is whether two people want different things out of life, or spend money differently, or have vastly conflicting spiritual beliefs, or one wants children and the other does not. The list of irreconcilable differences is endless but color/race/ethnicity was never a deal breaker for either of us.

I would have thought that younger people would be more open to dating or marrying people of different backgrounds than us "old fogies." I'm quite surprised to see interracial relationships described as a fetish. Maybe people need a little education on the social construct of "race" - see http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-x.htm ("Ten things everyone should know about race")

Thank goodness that there are people in the world who can meet other people as individuals, and judge them according to their own actions and beliefs, rather than making sweeping generalizations based on race, nationality, or other categories like that.

By the way, I have nothing against arranged marriages for those who want them. There's more than one way to have a successful marriage.

WTF "Also, please don't pull that line that women who are empowered get divorced. That is just another way of saying that White women are enlightened so they get out of marriages while brown girls are enslaved. I see that attitude of superiority among white women often: if a white man marries an Asian, it must be because they like submissive women who are essentially servants. Don't insult us."

I wasn't talking about India specifically, more about education levels/ability to get a job, etc worldwide... it certainly varies in all places. And I know plenty of Indian women who I would NEVER describe as submissive. I don't feel superior at all, in fact some of my best friends are Indian women who I admire deeply.

Regarding womens empowerment... try reading some statistics on 'dowry deaths' 'women dying in mysterious kitchen accidents' and so forth in India. And if you want to talk about more education upper class women with job access-- there is still extreme social pressure and threats of being disowned.

It has nothing to do with enlightenment of WOMEN. Most women I know who have struggles can point exactly what is wrong in their lives. It has to do with access to resources, and (like many of the women I met) if you are a poor woman who never got to go to school/get the skills to get a job, etc, you are pretty much stuck with your husband, regardless of if he is nice and treats you well, or rapes you, sets you on fire, or leaves you to starve while he drinks.

I have a story regarding that for you, and of course it is ONE story, but it is a true story that I heard directly from the mouth of the mother while I was living in Bihar, and unfortunately, not the only story of this kind I heard while staying there:

A mother with her younger (almost grown up daughter) came to visit the woman where I was staying. She told her this story:

My older daughter was married and moved in with her husbands family in his village. After marriage she became the victim of abuse. She was physically abused- kicked punched, etc by her husband. After becoming pregnant she ran away, and came home to her family house. (Where her mother saw the visible signs of abuse on the pregnant woman). She stayed there and had the child, a girl. A member of her husband's family came and begged her to come home. He promised she would not be beat anymore, if she came back to hr husband. She agreed, and (luckily) left her child with her mother. A few weeks later, I tried to contact her and found out that my daughter was dead. I went to the Police station, where her body was kept. The police officers told me that my daughter died of "jaundice". I demanded to see the body, and could see visible signs of abuse and also bruises around the neck. I asked for an autopsy to be done. The autopsy conclusion was death by strangulation. Shortly after this, the autopsy conclusion was changed from strangulation back to jaundice.

The mother wept as she told us that the husband's family had bribed the police to change the cause of death. She could not do anything to get justice for the death of her daughter.

please don't pull that line that women who are empowered get divorced. That is just another way of saying that White women are enlightened so they get out of marriages while brown girls are enslaved.

Try western women or american women in general not just white women, who being liberated and empowered feel free to divorce their husbands if their marriage is not working. Indian women are not liberated and many of them are trapped in unhappy abusive marriages , so it is wrong to gloat over the lower divorce rates in India. What is the social status of divorcees in India? How are widows treated?

LinZi,

Nobody is denying that women have it bad in India. Women have it bad in Africa, Latin America, East Asia (the sex trade, for example) everywhere. Babies and children are raped routinely in subSaharan Africa b/c virgin blood is seen as curative. Etc. etc.

BUT WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH INTERRACIAL MARRIAGES OR THE ADVICE TO DESIS TO MARRY WITHIN?

Will you marrying an Indian man suddenly take away violence against Indian women?

Will dowry deaths stop if desis start marrying Whites? If you say yes to that, then you have a lot in common with colonialists (let's save the darkies).

What's your point about the girl in Bihar? If she had married a White guy she would still be alive?

Saadi-com has every right to encourage marriage within without getting insults thrown at him/her by privileged White women who thinks she knows India because she spent a few months there and has a degree in Asian studies or something.

I don't know, but I think Shaadi.com is an elder person (maybe, I dont know) and so where do you get off insulting one of our elders? Where do you get off calling our babas and ammus ignorant and narrow minded?

Most interracial couplings -- from what I have noticed -- in America works if one partner gives up claim on his culture. I use "his" because more SA men marry out than women. Children of interracial couples do not learn the father tongue, and most are pretty much White America. There is nothing wrong with that, but if there are desis who encourage marriage within with hopes of sustaining common culture, that's none of your business.

And it is not restricted to desi culture. I have a Black female friend who is super educated, fun to be around, etc., but she won't date White men (there are many who want to be with her) and is hoping to settle with a Black man. Are you telling me that she is narrow minded? No. She is not. She wants to be with a Black man (sadly, no Black man wants her, but that's a different story).

I kept waiting for someone to jump out and say "Gotcha!" to the tanning salon staff. Too weird.

I cannot believe that most posters are so gullible they do not see that this is obviously staged. Look where the camera is shooting from. These people are acting.

WTF,

why are you so afraid of inter-racial marriage?

First of all, women s empowerment, abuse, and so forth that I brought up has to do with divorce rates (at least to me, in some degree) and someone stereotypically argued that Desis shouldn't marry whites/Americans because it will end in divorce. That's how I got there. Maybe if that girl in Bihar had people supporting her decision to leave an abusive relationship (i.e. DIVORCE), she wouldn't have ended up strangled to death. Maybe if people in India supported a woman who left an abusive relationship, the divorce rate would be higher, but more women would be in a safer place. (Again, this has nothing to do with white or desi, it has to do with womens empowerment)

Inter-racial marriage has nothing to do with empowering women in various places in the world, or saving abused children, or any other such thing. It has to do with two people who love each other and want to be together. It doesn't mean marrying within your own culture is bad, it just means that marrying outside your own culture isn't bad either.

I think it's funny that whenever I speak of anything regarding India, the first response is always "you are some privileged white women who probably went on vacation in India for two months, what do you know?" Do you question the credentials of an ABD when they make a comment regarding India? Do they need to prove how much they know about India too? Do you ask them how long they lived in India, if they have ever been to a village, if they know their mother tongue, or if they have studied Asian Studies?

And sorry if I get upset, but it is somewhat tiresome to constantly have to prove that I can also have a legitimate voice/opinion/ability just because I'm white. I did not grow up in a desi family in the US, but I'm sure if you stretch your mind a bit, you can imagine that even a white person could learn about/experience/live in another culture beside their own, and possibly even learn something!

So let me ask you again, WTF (I feel so weird typing that as your name..), what makes you so scared about two people who love each other from two different races getting married?

I don't know, but I think Shaadi.com is an elder person (maybe, I dont know) and so where do you get off insulting one of our elders?

most hilarious sentence in this thread. wtf should get with shady.com and take their tour on the road. they will kill in gobichettipalayam.

what makes you so scared about two people who love each other from two different races getting married?

enlightened people understand the dangers of miscegenation. racial purity MUST be maintained.

I am not scared at all of intermarriages. I could care less.

What I do have a problem with is the way you are defending your desire to marry Indians by
a) denigrating anyone who disagrees with you and labeling them as narrow minded bigots
b) insulting our women and men and 'culture" by making us out to be women killing, children raping animals
c) bringing in issues that are completely irrelevant to the issue of intermarriage.

And seeing how you fail at logic, I can see how you went from my comments to assuming that I am afraid of intermarriages.

but I'm sure if you stretch your mind a bit

You might considering stretching your own mind and NOT assuming that when our elders advise their children to marry within they are automatically bent on preserving a culture of wife beating child rapists. You might want to consider the fact that these unempowered darkies might have some insight into marriage that you don't. It also might help you to tone down the annoying, self righteous, know-it-all attitude you have going on there.

She wants to be with a Black man (sadly, no Black man wants her, but that's a different story).

Nicely done. Kudos, sir!

Are you telling me that she is narrow minded? No. She is not.

I don't fault people for their personal choices assuming they aren't born out of bigotry (I am talking about your friend based on what you've said, not you). I fault people who think that their personal choices are what others should adopt too.

Children of interracial couples do not learn the father tongue

i assume you are against most interregional marriages too for the same reason, since the parents usually end up talking in english to each other, or worse, hindi!

Why does every damn Sepia comment section turn into a statistics lesson?

It also might help you to tone down the annoying, self righteous, know-it-all attitude you have going on there.

Linzi, I agree with WTF. I mean, why can't you just make humble, grounded statements like these:

I work with high school white kids, and a full 70% of them are on Adderol or Ritalin or antidepressants. They eat TV dinners and are obese. Most of them are having unprotected sex as early as 13, and more than half the population under 16 have some kind of STD. HPV is so common, I had a student just brush it off like it was like a way of life. Alcohol and drugs are a major problem among American youth, and education and motivation are a joke. There is no parent at home overseeing these kids in most cases. It is worse in inner cities.

Try teaching in a high school and see how quickly you realize what a mess this upcoming generation is. Don't be fooled by the veneer of wealth in America--there is something stinking at its core. If the emotional problems I see in these high school kids is any indication, there is much to worry.

I know a teacher who proclaimed that she doesn't cook. I asked if her husband cooks. No. She talked about how women are not tied to the stove anymore and are liberated She has a 7 year old and a 4 year old. Guess what they are eating? Processed frozen and fast food. I call that abuse by feminist neglect.

WTF,

Please, twist my words a little more.

First of all, if people tell me I can't marry the person I love because he is a different race, they ARE a bigot.

Secondly, I will criticize where criticism is due. That applies to my own culture or any other place. I don't think patriotism is turning a blind eye on the faults/problems/injustices of America, nor do I think the only way to experience India is throw unquestioning admiration or hatred. Every country/culture/nation has it's negative and positive aspects. Admitting them and addressing them are the ways to make our world (as a whole) a better place...

Lastly, I brought up issues irrelevant to intercultural marriage because the whole argument began as "don't marry those bad bad whities, they don't believe in real marriage and will divorce you". Last I checked, divorce rates for specific countries don't have anything to do with two people loving each other and wanting to commit to each other.

If people don't want to talk about other topics, then don't bring up other topics. And I think you were the one who brought up whether or not I have a legitimate voice due to by whiteness.

And you are also the one who is arguing that "shaadi.com" who may or may not be your elder, can make bigoted comments because elders apparently have the right to be hateful or spout stereotypes.

And please re-read my comments, because I don't think I ever said a desi marrying a desi will result in wife-rapery and child abuse, or whatever else nonsense you typed.

"Maybe if that girl in Bihar had people supporting her decision to leave an abusive relationship (i.e. DIVORCE), she wouldn't have ended up strangled to death."

Rihanna - rich, black American, got herself beaten pretty badly by her rich black American boyfriend. One of the things that was discussed was how black American women asked what Rihanna did to provoke him.

"Maybe if that girl in Bihar had people supporting her decision to leave an abusive relationship (i.e. DIVORCE), she wouldn't have ended up strangled to death."

Rihanna - rich, black American, got herself beaten pretty badly by her rich black American boyfriend. One of the things that was discussed was how black American women asked what Rihanna did to provoke him.

Sameer--- Talking about problems in one country doesn't discount that they happen elsewhere.

I am the tenth or so to point it out. Staged. They're doing it for a lark. She can't hold the giggles in and he looks like he's going to burst out as soon as the cameras stop rolling.. Put a mustache on the guy and he'd look like Peter Sellers in Indian face. Actually I think he probably occupied the tanning booth before she did. A "sun"tan makes the girl more acceptable to his parents? I think they'd seek straight through that subterfuge.

Linzi, I found those marriage stats you gave here on this site: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

"Divorce rates among Christian groups:

The slogan: "The family that prays together, stays together" is well known. There has been much anecdotal evidence that has led to "unsubstantiated claims that the divorce rate for Christians who attended church regularly, pray together or who meet other conditions is only 1 or 2 percent". 8 Emphasis ours]. Dr. Tom Ellis, chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention's Council on the Family said that for "...born-again Christian couples who marry...in the church after having received premarital counseling...and attend church regularly and pray daily together..." experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages -- or 0.00256 percent. 9

A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:
bullet 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
bullet 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
bullet Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.

George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages.""

3,854 people from 48 states doesn't seem large enough of a sample to extrapolate to a the US which now has approx 300 million people.

Sameer, I used that 11% stat as a sarcastic retort to another comment about using statistics. The divorce rate data I actually used more seriously was found here: http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml which is taken from here:http://www.census.gov/ and here:http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/

"Sameer--- Talking about problems in one country doesn't discount that they happen elsewhere."

That is the point of what others have been trying to point out with regard to what you have written. You seem to have the white woman superior attitude towards brown women. Perhaps that was not your intention, but it is the way it came across. Brown people don't need white people to enlighten us or empower us or liberate us from xyz problems. We can empower ourselves and fix our own problems, problems which I am glad to see that you recognize are universal.

Linzi,
I am not sure what you are trying to say. On one hand you toss out stats to show the low divorce rate in America, "...if you look at the ones I take from a legitimate source, you can see that per 1,000 people, 3.6 are divorced. (This is of the entire population, not just married people)

So if you changed that to a percentage, 0.36% of Americans (of the ENTIRE population) are divorced. ..."

Then you talk about how you think the low divorce rate in other countries is basically due to oppression of brown women.
"...But I would also like to argue divorce rates in many countries (in my opinion) often seem to have to do with the rights of women. If a woman lives in a culture where she can get an education, get a job, and support herself and/or her children she would be less likely to stay in a bad relationship (such as emotionally or physically abusive, or one where the two people have become so different over time that they fight constantly) because she has the ability to make the decision "I'm not going to put up with this". Conversely, if a woman is in a culture where women supporting themselves is blocked or not supported, she will have less opportunity to make decisions about her future with or without her husband...."

Either way White America is better.

Where is my superiority attitude?

Give me some direct quotes. Where did I write that I a better/smarter/more knowledgeable than any brown woman? Where did I say brown women are ignorant? Where did I say "I know better than you"? And, where WHERE did I ever say it's my job to teach and liberate brown people with my own white superiority? I am waiting. Where are my quotes on this?

All I argued was this:

Divorce is not always bad.
I should be able to love/marry someone of a difference race if I want to.
Just because some Americans get divorced, doesn't mean we all will.
Just because I am white/brown/tan/olive/black/pink doesn't mean you can assume what I know or do not know about something.
India and the US both have problems that need to be fixed, and both have good points as well.
As world citizens, we can't change things if we ignore them.

I let it go the first time, but since it's cropped back up--that 3.6/1000 is a yearly rate, not a measure of the "stock" of divorcees.
Just think about it--there' no way fewer than 1 out of 100 americans are divorced, is there? Common-sense can go a long way towards pointing out errors in interpreting statistics.

honestly the whole statistics point was that if we focus on statistics instead of people.. we will come out with all sorts of isses...

So say 50% of US marriages end in divorce. Wow! Americans must not care about marriage.

So say 53 % of Indian children are victims of child abuse (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6539027.stm). Wow! Indians really must not care about their children!

See my point?

sorry... sexual abuse specifically..

I wrote "Brown people don't need WHITE PEOPLE to enlighten us or empower us or liberate us from xyz problems," not Linzi literally wrote "I want to enlighten liberate" etc....Others have already brought it up the areas where you look holier than thou. Look at their posts again.

Like I wrote, it may not have been your intention but that is the way you came across especially with what things you quoted - stats (sarcastic and legit stats) and that Bihar story.

show me. if i look holier than thou, show me where. Enlighten me.

LinZi, you are one piece of work, coming onto a desi blog and pushing this. First you pushed lies (11% divorce rate, ha), and then you push irrelevant crap (abuse of women and children), and then you defend high divorce rate as the result of enlightened free western women, and then you insult those who disagree with you as bigots.

Sameer, I used that 11% stat as a sarcastic retort

Another lie. You used that number in earnest until you were called on it. Sorry, these brown tards know how to read.

Where is my superiority attitude?

Everything you have posted has been dripping with it, and this being a classic line

I should be able to love/marry someone of a difference race if I want to.

Oh yeah, if White Woman thinks one way, of course anybody who feels otherwise is just a backward savage.

As world citizens, we can't change things if we ignore them.

Blah, blah, blah, and the Iraq and such as.

--

You're lucky this is a desi blog where you will be treated pretty lightly. Try pushing your sh*t on a Black women website and argue that Black women should marry White because Blacks have crime, are in prison, are druggies, etc. And then watch as your ass gets handed to you.

was it here:

"It wasn't really my intention to say that desi culture is worse, there are many things about desi culture that are admirable. And if I was seriously trying to use those statistics, I would have provided a link... my point was more about randomly throwing out statistics to validate a sweeping claim (i.e. inter-racial marriages result in divorce, or if you marry an american it will end in divorce)... hence the over exageration..."

here:?

"I wasn't talking about India specifically, more about education levels/ability to get a job, etc worldwide... it certainly varies in all places. And I know plenty of Indian women who I would NEVER describe as submissive. I don't feel superior at all, in fact some of my best friends are Indian women who I admire deeply."

or... here:?

"Secondly, I will criticize where criticism is due. That applies to my own culture or any other place. I don't think patriotism is turning a blind eye on the faults/problems/injustices of America, nor do I think the only way to experience India is throw unquestioning admiration or hatred. Every country/culture/nation has it's negative and positive aspects. Admitting them and addressing them are the ways to make our world (as a whole) a better place..."

@khan sahib - you wrote, "These people are acting."

I agree it was staged but it was not obvious to me whether everyone was in on the joke or whether only the "boyfriend/girlfriend" were trying to get a reaction from the tanning salon folks (some people will go along with anything out of politeness, fear of confrontation, customer service, or who knows what). No matter what was going on the whole scenario fell flat - not funny, just stupid. If it was supposed to be comedy then I say fire the writers. :-)

(cont post 65)

Linzi is the low divorce rate (the legit one you mentioned), " 0.36% of Americans (of the ENTIRE population) are divorced. ..." due to American women (as you wrote about other countries and cultures) lacking rights, inabiliity to get an education, a job, support herself and/or children, and as a result stay in a bad relationship (one that is emotionally or physically abusive, or where the two people have become so different over time that they fight constantly). Is that low .36% because American women are unable to make the decision "I'm not going to put up with this." Is it because America women live in a culture where women supporting themeselves is blocked or not supported and thus have less opportunity to make decisions about their future with or without her American husband?

Wtf, WTF? Kindly refer to the bottom of comment number 26:

"(To those of you who are not shaadi.com.. please excuse my extensive sarcastic remarks)"

I should be able to love or marry someone of another race if I want to? Of course, I was ASSUMING that you would understand that said person, would of course WANT to love me back. (Which, he does, by the way).

And since I am a white woman, I am not allowed to be concerned, for example,nonwhite people who might be ill, victims of abuse, or sexual harassment? I'm only supposed to care based on my skin tone, and ignore anything else going on in the world?

By the way, Iraq and blah blah blah... I don't support Iraq, nor do I support blah blah blah. In fact, most blah blah blah that the US does, goes far to mess up most of the world for their own greedy gain then help people...I don't consider myself some special convoy of American BS. Sorry to disappoint.

I think your main problem is you can't stand having a white person say anything negative about India, even though you probably do among your Indian friends all the time. How dare I come on a desi blog and be interested and invested in somthing! HA-rumphf! Should I go back with my own kind, then?

"As world citizens, we can't change things if we ignore them."

People are kinda tired of white people trying to change things in other parts of the world. I don't know who is worse Christian zealots trying to convert the dark heathen, or Liberals and Feminists zealots trying to convert the dark heathen. Both types think they are so right. Like I said before Brown PEOPLE don't need White PEOPLE. We can work on and solve our own problems. Brown people are aware of our problems. Hence your Bihar story was totally unnecessary on many levels. White people's interference more often than not has been a source of problem for Brown people, and Black people, and Yellow people and Red people.

"(cont post 65)

Linzi is the low divorce rate (the legit one you mentioned), " 0.36% of Americans (of the ENTIRE population) are divorced. ..." due to American women (as you wrote about other countries and cultures) lacking rights, inabiliity to get an education, a job, support herself and/or children, and as a result stay in a bad relationship (one that is emotionally or physically abusive, or where the two people have become so different over time that they fight constantly). Is that low .36% because American women are unable to make the decision "I'm not going to put up with this." Is it because America women live in a culture where women supporting themeselves is blocked or not supported and thus have less opportunity to make decisions about their future with or without her American husband? "

I never said it was low, Sameer. I just stated what the statistics said It's technically the highest in the world (Oh my! See, you have to take the rate of divorce and compare it to the rate of marriage.... In fact, if you would like, I can even say all sorts of PROBLEMS that exist in America...

(I said something bad about my own country! How dare I?).

And my comment about women empowerment was a point.. not that ALL divorces are due to abuse, but rather that divorce is not ALWAYS bad... if it is an option for someone being abused, should that person be condemned for breaking their wedding vows? Everyone is so easy to assume everything I say is India=Bad American=Wonderful.

Well that's not what I meant at all. Can we just clear that up now? I don't think India=Bad American=Good. I don't think brown=bad and white=good.

In fact, I don't think Divorce=bad and staying married=good OR staying married=bad divorce=good.

I don't think all american women=liberated and free and all indian women=unempowered and backward or vice versa.

How many times have I come on sepiamutiny? And generally, I get the same-old same-old "You're not desi, you are not allowed to have an opinion or thought"

My my my white liberals get so miffed when people of color don't flatter them, and tell them we don't need your help. We are aware of of problems thank you very much, we are perfectly capable of solving them. Thanks for your concern, but we can handle it ourselves.

"Like I said before Brown PEOPLE don't need White PEOPLE."

that's true... let's fix that sentence

"people need people"

better?

Linzi, you can have your opinion or thought. But so can we.

my my my, Sameer gets so miffed when people want to help people.

Why do you have to make it all about color, Sameer?

Can't we just do nice things for others because we are people, not because of skin tone?

so Sameer, what have you been doing to address the problems and concerns of your people? I'm very curious. You sound like you must be very active in the community.

I think your main problem is you can't stand having a white person say anything negative about India,

No, my main problem is with self righteous White women lecturing Indians about child abuse and dowry deaths and oppression of women during a discussion about interracial marriages and divorce rates. Also, telling me to go read up on dowry deaths is condescending. Just because you didn't know about dowry deaths until you went to India or until you took a women's studies course doesn't mean the rest of us are as ignorant.

Go throw your tantrums elsewhere. Your "I wanna so I must get" spoilt princess routine is what's annoying.

And since I am a white woman, I am not allowed to be concerned, for example,nonwhite people who might be ill, victims of abuse

Sure, you have a right to be concerned. But no, you don't have the right to use that (false) concern to bash anyone who has differing opinions.

Should I go back with my own kind, then?

If by your "kind" you mean utterly full of herself while failing at logic, then yes, go back to your own kind.

Sigh.

so Sameer, what have you been doing to address the problems and concerns of your people?

Sameer, or anybody for that matter, does NOT have to explain what he does or doesn't do for his people.

Why don't you list all that you have done for your people, sweetheart?

Is this dipshit Pardesi Gori, by any chance? Or are there clones of her running around India trying to save the brown savages.

""Like I said before Brown PEOPLE don't need White PEOPLE."

that's true... let's fix that sentence

"people need people"

better?"

This is better: In general, human being need human being, but BROWN PEOPLE DO NOT NEED WHITE PEOPLE TO HELP US. Black people don't need white people to save them, Yellow people don't need white people, Red people don't White people. Thanks but no thanks. We people of color are capable of being aware of our problems and working one them.

You don't seem to realize white racists (AND I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE A RACIST) used to treat people of color like grown children, unable to really help themselves. Liberals don't realize they tend to do the same thing even when they are trying to be this, people of the world. Racists brought up and exaggerated all the problems among people of color, and liberals in their quest not to be like racists and help people of color also tend to bring up in disproportion the problems among people of color and present it in a way that doesn't show the same problems among white populations. That is why you saw many desi's bring up the same problems in the West among non-desis.

Linzi, you make me prefer white racists. At least they know they look down up us and we know it too. You have no idea why you got the reaction you did. You brought up all these extreme statistics and stories of abuse, and you think you're being fair and balanced and a citizen of the world.

I've just been reading along. But LinZi is not Pardesi Gori...I know, in part because I spent too much time on a different blog arguing with PG (in her latest incarnation--she doesn't go by that handle these days) last night--because she was talking about how awful Indian men are and why white women should NOT get involved with/marry them. Argh.

Sameer, WTF, anyone else...

I would like to apologize if I have offended you. Obviously my whole discussion point I was trying to make in the beginning didn't come off correctly, and led to a bunch of random tangents that also didn't help my argument.

Honestly, if you got to know me (Not from these posts where I have become more and more frustrated and blabbering) you would know that I am not some racist or neo-colonialist. (Nor am I pardesi gori, thank god!)

I'm really sorry if this conversation went the wrong way, I think the whole thing started because of my gut reaction to someone saying that my boyfriend of two years and I should not get married because I am white and hence we will be divorced. This is very personal for me, as some people in India have voiced this opinion to him, which makes things unnecessarily stressful for both of us. I think you can understand why I might feel defensive or stressed out hearing those kinds of comments.

Once people in India who say those sorts of things get to know me, I get comments like "oh, you're not like other americans" or "wow, you're practically an Indian" rather than people wanting to admit that maybe some stereotypes or assumptions about americans are not always right.

At the same time, it also frustrates me, that on this website I can't voice my opinion without getting "but you're white, what to do you know?" expressed at some point. I would never say that to an Indian person when discussing the U.S., maybe I will disagree with them on some point, but I won't invalidate their point by lack of American citizenship. It's not that I think I am right all the time, or that my opinion is better, in fact, I love learning new things through discussion. I just don't want to be invalidated purely based on my background... invalidate me if I get my facts wrong, not based on where I come from... I'm sure you would want people to do the same for you.

I am American of Indian descent, Linzi. I hear from Europeans when I visit how I am not like other Americans because I actually know something. That offends me. I say America is filled with many races from around the world, very knowledgeable on many fronts, and don't let George Bush shape your attitude about America ;) .

The decision for you and bf to marry is between the two of you. No one can say about the future of your marriage, how long it will last.

Feel free to share you opinion, but expect that others will as well.

"I just don't want to be invalidated purely based on my background... invalidate me if I get my facts wrong, not based on where I come from... I'm sure you would want people to do the same for you."

FYI, you weren't invalidated purely based on your background on this post. It was what you wrote.

I call that abuse by feminist neglect.

Well, my marriage isn't between just the two of us, it involves two families as well, and both of those families need to be accepting and supportive of the marriage (in my opinion).

This is where my frustration comes in, as I have to battle against all sorts of stereotypes (not just because I am not Indian, or not Hindu) because I am American specifically... most specifically the "divorce" thing. Especially frustrating because I identify to little with America in general...

Sameer, can you tell me what I wrote that is wrong then please, because that was not quite clear to me.

I'm sorry if bringing up child abuse offended you.. I used that example because, since the last research I did was on childrens rights in India, it was the first statistic that came to mind to use as an example of why statistics shouldn't be used to paint a picture of "everyone" doing "one thing". For example, 53% of children does seem like an insanely high amount, but I don't think anyone would forgive me if I used that statistic to say "Don't marry an Indian because they will abuse your child". My whole point was, don't assume or stereotype... using shocking statistics can be sensationalidt, but can they tell the whole story of what is happening on 'the ground"?