Well as you said, the picture isn't stylish. It lacks pizzazz but I DO appreciate seeing a truly dark-skinned Indian woman in an ad. (Yeah I said it!)

Is the service on Air India bad? If so in what way?

My god those kids are super cute.

I wonder if they're real couples, or maybe they had did some spouse swapping when the models showed up :)

Since they're catering to an international and continent hopping crowd, will they be adding other couples of mixed
nationalities for each country they fly to ? Maybe a Chinese and Indian couple, or an African / African American spouse ?

Interesting that they went with the mixed couples (which is commendable) as opposed to just showing
modern, young Indians - maybe they have in other ads ? Hey - maybe with the latest court ruling they'll
have some same sex couples - for the San Francisco flights :)

clearly, they're trying to make up for that one time when i was a kid and they seating all whe white people first after giving them hotel rooms for the overnight while we indians stayed in the airport.

i honestly dont think the service on air - india is bad, assuming we are strictly talkin about the service on board and not the innumerable delays etc.

To begin with which other airline is going to put up with the tantrums of indians being obnoxiously rude, mean etc (i'm going primarily for the aunty, uncle crowd here).....
but everyone tends to do this.....

This same segment would never be patronized or entertained, nor would they honestly say a word if they were for instance on an all white air line.
Anyone seen an aunty or uncle complain about their food being vegetarian when they asked for the jain variety on any other airline...
Thats just a slight exagerration but you get the point.....

I believe the classic indian mentality of, I paid for this ticket all you people are now my servants(naukars) and I will treat you soo,
doesnt manifest itself truely unless such kind of people are in air india.....

Why is everyone being such a social conservative and assuming the couples are married??

its like a benetton ad for normal looking people.

To begin with which other airline is going to put up with the tantrums of indians being obnoxiously rude,

El AL

7 · Manju

To begin with which other airline is going to put up with the tantrums of indians being obnoxiously rude,

El AL

Perhaps a little insider-ish, but brilliant nonetheless!
On a similar (but far, far lesser in brilliance!) point, I'm betting that AI's displaced Maharaja mascot is now flying to and from Desh on Emirates, and, making up for lost time, is in fact ogling their (non-desi) stewardesses. ;-)

Actually, the other ad has an Emirati woman with an Indian husband - she's just very light-skinned, as a lot of Emiratis are. The campaign is for Bangalore-Dubai and Mumbai-New York. Hence, an Indian and Emirati in the Bangalore-Dubai ad, and an Indian and a white American in the Mumbai-New York ad.

And yeah, if AI wasn't so god awful in terms of service, I would consider flying them again. Spending 10 hours on a plane that hadn't been cleaned or serviced at all from San Francisco to the layover in Frankfurt was AWFUL and I'll never do it again. Ugh.

Now if only they could do something about their service, I’d really sit up and take notice.

The service would improve the day Air India is privatised or removed from the control of politicians (corporatized?) who think of it as their free government provided travel service. Compare the service on Jet Airways for instance.

Wow! Air India anticipated the repeal of 377 in its campaign!

I should say, I hate Air India for international travel, but for travel within India, I've found it pleasant enough, even if many of the planes are very, very old. The newer ones flying out of Delhi are pretty nice, though. And the flight attendants in-country are unfailingly helpful.

But yeah. No more AI for international travel. Oy.

What was I to make of this mixed race family, desi female sitting openly in her white husband’s lap? Now if only they could do something about their service, I’d really sit up and take notice.

Ennis, do you not understand?They are all sitting in the same seat. Now, wouldn't you get on an AI flight for that opportunity, especially with all that cramped legroom of an airline seat.

Ad campaign is definitely interesting, but not particularly visually appealing...

The last time I was on an AI was when I got bumped from my Malaysian flight. The AI plane was old - the armrests were broken (one with a jagged edge; I was just told to put a pillow over it), and the wallpaper had mysterious stains (that paisley pattern is very forgiving). I had looked forward to my personal entertainment system on Malaysian, but no such luck on the aging AI plane, where all the passengers got to watch an inane Hindi movie followed by an inane Tamil movie. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the flight attendants are bad (although I've definitely seen much better), but they're generally indifferent to the passengers (especially the Indian ones). The only good thing? Their fantastic cuisine, if you get the Indian food. It's a great way to get pumped up for a visit to the desh, and a perfect way to say goodbye when you leave.

Represent!
But you're still not convincing us to switch over from Continental direct-to-Delhi.
Take a few tips from Singapore Airlines and then we'll talk.

I'll be convinced that they're being indiscriminate when they pair a fair skinned Indian and a dark-skinned non-Indian. Mixed-race Indian couples tend to be more acceptable when the non-Indian is fairer. Apparently, fairness is equivalent to beauty and beauty is not in the eyes of the beholder, to the vast majority of Indians. Go figure.

If you really want to challenge the stereotype, target those of us who are racists and feudalists in the closet. You can do that by targeting the notion of unequal marriages, i.e., that marriages are not between minds and personalities, but between skin-deep standards of beauty and status.

I’ll bet he[Maharaja, desi uncle] never looked once at a non-desi air hostess, no matter how flirtatious.

Ennis, the desi uncle has ALWAYS looked at non-desi(white) air hostesses and other women. It is a rite of passage almost to flirt, befriend, sleep and if he can manage marry a white woman. Every single desi man, to this day and across religion, caste, and every socio-economic marker i can think of, wants to sleep with a white woman. Oh and sardars, in and out of India, are especially flirtatious. An airplane is the perfect opportunity. Surely you have met one such turbaned maharaja. I mean, I have yet to come across an exception (well not counting gay men, hijadas, and some abcds who were teased in school and now go around calling themselves "brown").

As an aside, I see all this whining on sepia and other places about how desi women go for white men. Indian women, at least (can't talk about Pak/Bangla and others) are 50-80 years behind Indian men in this regard. Indian women have only very recently started going places on their own.

#4 "This same segment would never be patronized or entertained, nor would they honestly say a word if they were for instance on an all white air line."

All white airline?!?! Which on is that?

Sometime in the early 90's, my family and I boarded an AI flight from Heathrow. The plane was obviously a rental, sporting a Caribbean Airlines logo and an equally exotic crew. No sooner had we reached cruising altitude, the captain announced some malfunction that necessitated returning to Heathrow. It was already past midnight and except for this near-emergency landing, the runways had shut down for the night. I think there is some noise ordinance there that gives the locals' need for a good night's sleep way too much priority. AI had no choice but to find hotel rooms for an angry mob.

We were bused to a rather elegant hotel called St. James Court or something, then an Oberoi owned property just blocks from Buckingham Place. It must have been the sleepy baby in my wife's arms that drew the desk clerk's pity, because as we opened the door to what I thought would be a standard double room, we entered a lavishly furnished 3-bedroom apartment - a mere two-minute walk from where the British royalty lived. I just had to see the daily rate posted on the back of the door. It was over 600 pounds a night. Thank you, Air India!

The next morning, as my family slept, I took my little AI breakfast coupon - yes, 600 pounds notwithstanding, there were meal coupons involved - and went down to the special buffet set up just for the stranded AI passengers. I had a cup of coffee and went back up, thinking I would hold off on breakfast until everybody was ready. When I went back to the buffet with my family, the AI gal on duty guarding the special buffet recognized me right away. Her words to me were, "Excuse me, didn't you eat already?" Before I could explain that I wasn't there to rob AI of an extra toast or something, she quickly said that I could use my baby's coupon to eat (read "freeload") again since the baby was too little to eat the buffet food anyway. Thank you, AI, and thanks also to my now 16-year old daughter for being, quite literally, my meal ticket that morning in London.

With all their little peculiarities, I would still rank AI as somewhere in the middle. It is certainly not as refined as the other Asian airlines or India's own Jet Airways, but at least its crew is far more polite than what you will find on American Airlines or Continental flights to India. And, of course, AI is the airline that brought me to the US in 1973, making it as special to me as one's first love or first kiss, not that I have any recollection of the latter two.

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you guys who flew on AI flew on AI?

I took AI about 2 years ago... on a direct flight to Delhi and it was GREAT. (Say what?). That's right. Great. Why? Well it was SOOO empty I got to stretch out. I also scored an exit row seat where I could stretch my legs out (Huzzah! I have long legs and usually I spend the flight trying to keep my knees, which are smashed up on the seat in front of me, from falling asleep.) Half of coach was empty. Everything was clean, the service was good, the food was not terrible (a feat for any airline) and they also gave us nifty little things little slipper-socks and those little things. They also had those little consoles where you can pick whatever movies and shows you want to watch.

those little things to cover your eyes... I mean

Ennis, can you post a picture of the iconic Air India bag? It used to come free with the flight in the olden days. Like a pucca fob, I arrived in the US in 1973 proudly sporting an AI bag with the cute-like-Ganesh Maharaja logo emblazoned on the side. It sat in my closet for the longest time. Back in India, you see the bag in use even to this day. Things don't get tossed in the garbage that fast in India.

LinZi -- three years ago. That was the used (old) Korean plane with the Italian pilots and the desi attendants. No personal entertainment system, although that was not the worst thing. Food was good and the attendants were OK (if you want to see real indifference, try flying Lufthansa), but their entire crew on the ground are the worst I've ever seen, and they're even worse in India than they are at JFK. They were cheap at least.

Is it just me, or does the guy in the other photo look a bit like Chris Rock? I'm surprised that they actually went with two fairly dark desis for this campaign ...

I always had a good time on AI flights. Unfortunately their baggage handlers come from Nasir Hussain school. Bags get lost at the village fair that is AI counter and after a long delay get reunited with their family in an emotional scene.

We flew AI for our last trip to Delhi, and it was GREAT. A brand-new plane, comfy seats, excellent vegetarian food, etc. I liked it so much that I want to fly AI again for our next trip.

I like the ad campaign. I think the couples look cute together with their babies. And it reflects the reality of the 21st century--I definitely saw more intercultural couples on our AI flights than just my husband and myself.

Air India is definitely a far, far more enjoyable experience than Air America, I'll tell you that much.

Ennis, the desi uncle has ALWAYS looked at non-desi(white) air hostesses and other women. It is a rite of passage almost to flirt, befriend, sleep and if he can manage marry a white woman. Every single desi man, to this day and across religion, caste, and every socio-economic marker i can think of, wants to sleep with a white woman.

Tangential to the topic but, DBD male here, in my 40s, married with children, never slept with anyone but my desi wife and don't flirt with any air-hostesses. Have many friends that are of similar values, while some that are not. Will such anecdotal evidence help you be less cynical and more open? Probably not, since it is more about you rather than desi men!

Floridian, it's always nice to read your comments.

As a mom of young children, I've got to say AI rocks. After flying business and first around the world, i rolled my eyes at spouse for booking economy on AI for our last trip to desh. as a thrifty desi, the price was pocket-friendly. The cabin crew was super friendly and accomodated, pampered and doted upon our kids, while mom and dad got a little rest. The definitely made up for the lack of amenities on the plane, besides, I had all the movies and music I wanted/needed on my ipod. I am an AI convert!

This is a scam ad. ie an ad which has been created specifically by Bobby Pawar at DDB India for the express purpose of winning award at the Cannes advertising award show.And it is a shameless rip off of an earlier ad campaign done by Air France( see linkhttp://adsoftheworld.com/media/print/air_france_double_life?size=_original)

It is definitely not a sign of changing of Air India or anything else. As a matter of fact the company is bankrupt and has not paid any salaries to its staff for this month

Air India is definitely a far, far more enjoyable experience than Air America, I'll tell you that much.

The failed radio channel that had that clown Al Franken ? Yes, I agree. Air India is much more entertaining.

AI had their chance! We only fly Emirates. Their ice entertainment system is unbeatable!

Where is the same sex couple? That will make Auntji wants to fly AI.

I always had a good time on AI flights. Unfortunately their baggage handlers come from Nasir Hussain school.

the uncle with the hennaed hair who knows all of the hottest club dance moves.

Ennis, the desi uncle has ALWAYS looked at non-desi(white) air hostesses and other women. It

What a ridiculous statement. I haven't seen that at all, and I've had discussions with desi guys and they told me that they were lucky to be part of a "group" that had so many beautiful women. Like the other dude who wrote saying this was the farthest thing from his experience - your anecdote has nothing to do with "ALWAYS".

When I was kid I heard my parents say AI was awesome. Something changed in the management and it had gone downhill I believe in the late '80s. I don't know how it is now. I always remember as a kid (and we don't have this experience, unless we fly first-class I guess, anymore in most airlines) the air hostesses were so sweet bringing all sorts of puzzles and toys - my older sis and I were completely entertained.

I'll kindof miss the fat maharaja...would like to see some diversity in the mixed couples - some Indian and African American, some Indian and East Asian..it is a globalized world.

Doesn't this look familiar to http://adsoftheworld.com/media/print/air_france_double_life?size=_original

It looks similiar... but I guess in my mind it's more about the choice of AIR INDIA to use this idea for an advertising campaign (reference to intercultural relationships AND insinuated they had SEX (ahem... made babies) at the same time?) that is interesting to me, rather than if they campaign is similiar to any others.

Doesn't this look familiar to http://adsoftheworld.com/media/print/air_france_double_life?size=_original

funny, the guy playing the husband to the white and east asian wife/girlfriend/paramour is the same guy. Anyways the desi dude in the AI campaign is hot...maybe I shouldn't have said that b/c it's going to start nitpicking on people's looks, but there I said it. And I think the white guy in the AI ad is pretty cute too.

Awww...I love those little hadesi bebes. I'm totally not biased ;0)

This ad has not been shown in India. And I don't think it will ever be shown. There are many ads made just for winning awards. Do not read too much into it.

ennis wrote: "The Maharaja was from an era of arranged marriages, when nobody spoke of dating, let alone across the colour line. I’ll bet he never looked once at a non-desi air hostess, no matter how flirtatious."

Ennis, Shah Jahan was a Maharaja, and he had a marriage with a Portuguese girl. Rajiv Gandhi was effectively a maharajah, since he *INHERITED* it from his dynasty, and he married an Italian.

Also, the Indian cartoon looks like a white guy. He's got pink skin, just like all the other Indian cartoon characters. Some of the Indian cartoon characters, such as Hanuman, even has blue eyes and brown hair.

Sure, this ad is tacky, but I'm glad that it shows a darker Indian girl.

Boston_Mahesh - I don't have a problem with the ad. In fact, both this and the male counterpart involve darker Indians and lighter spouses.

rishi "This ad has not been shown in India. And I don't think it will ever be shown. There are many ads made just for winning awards. Do not read too much into it."

well....OK... but I still like it. It makes me happy...

And on an entirely other (but slightly related) note.. I don't get why people don't think those kids could be Michael Jackson's... I mean check out these (adorable) children here... presuming they are really the combination of the two adults pictures... they are certainly in between their parents in coloring but seem to favor the lighter side (or maybe since they are babies they haven't been in the sun much yet?) So if a white guy and a darker (beautiful!) desi lady can have a relative fair looking child, why can't old MJ?

AI is horrible. One particularily memorable flight, a 10 hour delay, flying alone as a minor and missing my connection in Mumbai because of the delay. No one helped me or even pretended to help me from AI. On this same flight I sat by the kitchen and saw roaches on the food carts, so I didn't eat a thing on the whole flight. I've flown a lot of airlines and AI is bar none the worst I've ever been on.

My husband's grandfather was a pilot for AI in the 40s. He was killed while flying a cargo route over the Himalayas. No compensation was provided to his widow, or his surviving children.

So if a white guy and a darker (beautiful!) desi lady can have a relative fair looking child, why can't old MJ?

Linzi, it's much more than the skin coloring (and by the way you get the same difference in skin color with desi kids and like me, you'll end up with a light-skinned mom with very dark-skinned kids, so no biggie there) - it's the fact that the children do not seem to have any of MJ's beautiful features (MJ was just beautiful w/o that crap surgery) and their hair does not look like a black/white mixed hair - it's too NATURALLY straight to me - those are not issues with desi/white products. MJ had a very wide nose, so it's a little surprising that the children do not have anything similar to that.

But didn't (excuse me if I get it wrong) Debbie Rowe have very blonde hair and a very typical white narrow nose... I mean who is to say which nose a kid will inherit... In my family... my nose looks exactly like my mom's whereas my sisters doesn't really look like either parents' nose.

I dunno, I mean I am not saying that I absolutely think that those are his kids, I really don't know. But I just seem to think that people tend to assume that when interracial couples have children, the child will look more _______ (fill in whatever is NOT white).

I had a little girl in my kindergarten class whose mom was Irish-American and her dad was Bengali. She had dark hair and eyes, but her skin was rather light (as in lighter than my olive skin tone). As a 5 or 6 year old, I don't think someone could see her (without her parents present) and guess that she is half Irish and Bengali.

Anyways, I know this is a total tangent, but I just thought it was interesting to see the babies in the photos and the variation from their parents. (presuming they are real families to begin with, of course!)

"So if a white guy and a darker (beautiful!) desi lady can have a relative fair looking child, why can't old MJ?"

This couples is not a real couple and that child, that's not their child.

I think it may be Suri Cruise.

oh the power of the media to melt critical thinking.

My first thought was "who the hell is Suri Cruise?"

hmm. Anyways, how do you know if they are real couples or not? Do you know something? bataiye, yaar.

Linzi - We are so o/t and smintern will come in a minute - but I'd think children of mixed parents will have a blend? of their features. Anyways I don't know much about genetics and the dominant gene and what not...but between MJ's hair and nose they just don't look anything like MJ - anything is possible I guess unless a geneticist can tell me differently; I've known kids who are the offspring of white and indian and they look completely indian - meaning their hair is black, their eyes are black and they happen to have a darker skin tone.

"My first thought was "who the hell is Suri Cruise?"

hmm. Anyways, how do you know if they are real couples or not? Do you know something? bataiye, yaar."

You are serious? About the ad I mean, not the illustrous Suri Cruise.

Yeah. How do you know if they used real couples or not?

idea is a straight lift from an earlier (proposed?) Air France campaign.

oof. i feel so geeque. time for a chai and parle biskit with gulucose.

If we want to speak airlines, I nominate Air France for the most-rude award!

They SHOULD run these ads. Just so that Uncle and Aunty back in the desh see what happens when they send their precious son or daughter abroad to study ... or something.

And did you just call my (unborn, not even a Snickers bar in her/his dad's back pocket) kid a hadesi? I'll have to remember that.

has anyone else flown air ukraine or aeroflot back to the pind. it's a totally desi experience. the service sucks, but it's very cosy. everyone's nosy, booze is shared, cheese is cut - and my accent slips into something much more comfortable. between you and me, i cant stand the yuppies with their ipods and diaper bags. let the tatti rags pile on the floor man.

well LinZi, it has something to do with the facts of advertising and having been involved with the media for decades. They use models. The guy in the picture has been more than one woman's husband in more than one ad, so he's either a polygamist who has exposed himself to a possible felony charge as soon as he lands in New York, or he is a Muslim, left the sordidness of western decadence, and lives in India and has a rainbow harm.
As far as comparing the models to MJ's munchkins and his surrogate wombs and probably surrogate sperms, well, desis dark or light have a different genetic profile than African Americans. As markers for race go, color is one of the more superficial. Color is the squeaky wheel that gets the attention.
Nature never fails to deliver surprises that defy laws of generality, but she usually parcels them out sparingly.

errata: "... and lives in India and has a rainbow harm."
not really--
I mean "harem."

"I've known kids who are the offspring of white and indian and they look completely indian - meaning their hair is black, their eyes are black and they happen to have a darker skin tone."

Well, my husband has completely Indian cousins with green eyes and lighter skin. It's not inconceivable (heh, no pun intended) that a mixed couple could have a pretty light baby. I don't think it seems like a stretch for those couples in the ads to be real couples with their own kids.

"well LinZi, it has something to do with the facts of advertising and having been involved with the media for decades. They use models. The guy in the picture has been more than one woman's husband in more than one ad, so he's either a polygamist who has exposed himself to a possible felony charge as soon as he lands in New York, or he is a Muslim, left the sordidness of western decadence, and lives in India and has a rainbow harm."

I thought the re-used husband was in the Air France ads... not ALL media people use models.. sometimes they like 'regular' looking people and hence audition a lot of normal couples and choose appealing ones from among them.

It's not inconceivable (heh, no pun intended)

:)

I don't think it seems like a stretch for those couples in the ads to be real couples with their own kids.

absolutely! those children could be desis or a mix of white and south asian, as far as I can tell from the kids. I was just saying that I've seen mixes where the kids have darker skin and their mom is blond (dark skin and white skin desi mixes do not necessarily end up with light skin, that was my only point), and of course I've seen desi/white mixes where the desi is dark-skinned and their children have very light skin.

"absolutely! those children could be desis or a mix of white and south asian, as far as I can tell from the kids. I was just saying that I've seen mixes where the kids have darker skin and their mom is blond (dark skin and white skin desi mixes do not necessarily end up with light skin, that was my only point), and of course I've seen desi/white mixes where the desi is dark-skinned and their children have very light skin."

Indeed. I think they is a wide variety of variation.. because just like any other genetic information, hair, eye, skin tone, facial features are inherited and there can be a wide variation between siblings as well. I'm sure you have seen families where one child is lighter/darkers than the other, or where one has very curly hair and the other has wavy or striaght... same goes for skin tone... If you think that each parents carries potential for a wide variety of skin tones, then mixes with a wide variety of someone else's skin tones.. the results could be rather different... especially because I think skin tone is not quite as driven by one set of genetic markers like eye color for example, hence much more variable. (Brown eye trait is dominant, so if a brown and blued eyed person had children, *If* the brown eyed person has one recessive gene for blue eyes, then the child has 75% chance of having brown eyes, 25% chance of having blue eyes. If two brown eyed people each had a recessive gene for blue eyes, then same thing (hence it is possible for two brown eyed people to rarely have a blue eyed child) Of course, if one partner has ONLY two brown-eyed genes, then all the kids will have brown eyes.)

sorry again for all my typos... I never seem to notice them until have I press the post button. grr.

Amy and Kif's Amphibiosan Mars Chinese kids, how will their kids turn out? This is the question that gives us sleepless nights. Bear in mind that Kif has three nipples, and is able to shed his skin when necessary. His skin can also change colors to blend in with his surroundings.

I always wanted to fly AI but their tickets were always so expensive. Never got to. Not in all these years. Maybe next time.

Mr. X, you so crazy I wanna have yo baby.

Just clicked on the link. The Desi dude is very cute. He is unfortunately the kind of Indian man that would have low self-esteem due to the dark brown tone of his skin. Depite having attractive facial features (and nice heart shaped lips) he would be considered un-desirable simply because he is dark chocolate. Now, picture the same guy with Hrithik Roshan skin tone and all Desi aunties will say he is handsome.

But in my world, the blacker the berry.... the sweeter the juice!!!

He is unfortunately the kind of Indian man that would have low self-esteem due to the dark brown tone of his skin.

well I call bs; coming from the south, most dark-skinned Indian men I've known have had a very high self-esteem - to the point of being arrogant. Yeah, dark and light skin, as far as beauty is a touchstone, but it's not the only touchstone. I've said this before, and this is my experience coming from the south, but features are pretty important too. Also being a guy, I'd say he'd have not problem getting any girl he wanted...as long as he's the ses that the parents crave.

Ennis, the desi uncle has ALWAYS looked at non-desi(white) air hostesses and other women. It is a rite of passage almost to flirt, befriend, sleep and if he can manage marry a white woman. Every single desi man, to this day and across religion, caste, and every socio-economic marker i can think of, wants to sleep with a white woman.

I have yet to meet an Indian dude, even the Gori-fetishists among us, who would categorically say "I don't date Indian girls" the way many females will say of men.

hmmm. Thinking about adopted kids and family likenesses for some reason. Sorry about the tangent, but I've grown up with inter-racial adoptees. Adoptive parents are well intentioned, but kids from India, China, Guatemala, who have grown up in white American homes end up wondering about their origins and go looking. Even if there is no difference in race or nationality, adopted kids will want to know the other dimension.

Adopted kids hunt down biological parents for medical information, for example. Modern medicine gives increasing weight to heredity in health matters. Also, as adopted kids get ready to produce their own kids, they want to know more about the probabilities. So if the MJ kids don't already know their biological parents, (and I suspect the older ones do) they will find out not too long from now.
I've been joking a little bit. Of course the models in the picture COULD be representing an actual couple and that the child is theirs not that much of a stretch. I read somewhere that desi's have one less gene for melanin than black Africans. Nice dark hair & eyes, pale olive skin, a bambi look--yeah, could be. But if they showed this couple with 3 kids that looked like this -- and one of them being blond...well--that'd be a stretch. Three dark and lovely kids? Less of stretch. 3 kids of an "in-between" color? Bingo. Most likely scenario. Law of averages.
I think in America, even fob sometimes, nobody thinks anybody is "average." We all think we transcend all that and anything is possible. It is. It's just not likely.
I guess it was the assumption that these two people in this ad are real people. They aren't. They are an ad-man's imagination writ large and imposed on us all. It was, "ok people, I don't need your names. Stand over there and relax. You get 20,000 euros for several hours of grueling photo shoots and pretending to be in a state of connubial bliss. By the way, we'll have to change the kid several times or the child labor laws will come down on us so we have several in reserve. Look traditional and cosmopolitan. Hold that smile for the next 3 hours."
There is something about advertising that absolutely drives me nuts.

I think in America, even fob sometimes, nobody thinks anybody is "average." We all think we transcend all that and anything is possible. It is. It's just not likely.

Actually, most people aren't average. The ugly truth is a lot of people are above but just as many people are below and that's the harsh reality people are uncomfortable about acknowledging.

But trying to make policies or dispense advise that target only the "average" person thinking it's the most broadly applicable is, in fact, only going to be relevant to people within a very small range of the population distribution.

But if they showed this couple with 3 kids that looked like this -- and one of them being blond...well--that'd be a stretch. Three dark and lovely kids? Less of stretch. 3 kids of an "in-between" color? Bingo. Most likely scenario. Law of averages.

Meet the Rainbow Family.

I think the ads are great. What's refreshing about them is that the Indians shown are not the usual light-skinned, Indo-Aryan Hrithik-Aishwarya phenotypes favored by the Indian media.

On a more narrow and technical point, AI never operated 30-year old Korean Air hand-me downs. They briefly operated leased Korean Air Boeing 747-400s, between 2001 and 2005, an aircraft type that first went into service in 1989. Those aircraft were in no worse condition than your average U.S. registered aircraft (Korean Air does a good job maintaining its aircraft interiors). On the other hand, I've flown Air India's own Boeing 747-400s that were purchased brand new in the 1990s, which were filthy and tatty on the inside (even in Business Class). So, maybe the writer's talking about those. Those aircraft are all being retired or being put on their "labor" routes to Saudi Arabia, routes where even the competition, Saudi Arabian Airlines, puts its tattiest planes (sadly).

In any case, I've recently flown Air India's brand new Boeing 777s (a JFK-Mumbai nonstop), and the experience was fantastic. Brand new planes, excellent leg room, on-time, state of the art personal inflight entertainment. Air India's aunties and uncles waddling down the aisles seemed happier with the new planes, and provided great service overall. The new planes are the airline's Boeing 777LRs (ultra long range aircraft used on US-India nonstops), and their Boeing 777-300s used on one-stop flights to the US and to the UK. Unfortunately, they also operate 777s leased from United (another tatty story), and so its possible that one can find oneself seated in one of those.

By the way, the Maharajah was never intended to be some icon of a prior era. He symoblized Bobby Kooka, JRD Tata's right-hand man back in the 1960s who made the airline a glamorous carrier back then. Kooka was a flirtatious, charming bon vivant, the Richard Branson of his time. The airline's ads and especially the billboards that featured the Maharajah back in the 1960s and well into the 1980s were full of double entendres poking fun at assorted sacred cows with the Maharajah at the center of it all grinning slyly. Its too bad that with the transformation of the airline into a dottering, tacky, Govt of India entity, the Maharajah too lost his verve and turned into a stodgy desi uncle with bad polyester pants and a clip-on tie.

"Meet the Rainbow Family."

Seen 'em. Interesting case. one is like dad, one like mom, and one in between.

well I call bs

Is it that PG is just brilliant, or are the people who engage its trollish statements again and again and again and again just so preternaturally dumb that they can't help themselves?

I think in America, even fob sometimes, nobody thinks anybody is "average." We all think we transcend all that and anything is possible

I disagree.

I'm willing to bet that Aish and Abhi's spawn will not be as attractive as they are.

huh?

Um, we have a whole slew of hadesis in our family. And they run the gamut from looking VERY Indian - with black hair and eyes and brown skin, to blonde hair and white enough that they barely tan, just burn. It's all a genetic crapshoot, people.

Meet the Rainbow Family.

That's kind of what Shashi and Jennifer Kapoor's kids look like, except none of them look completely brown, probably because Shashi himself was so fair-skinned. Kunal, Karan, and Sanjana.

"Wobegonian on July 9, 2009 04:26 PM · Direct link "
"I think in America, even fob sometimes, nobody thinks anybody is "average." We all think we transcend all that and anything is possible"

"I disagree."

how so Wobegonian, aren't you all above average up there?

It's the service that needs to be improved..the bad attitude of middle class ugly air hostesses who treat desis in a vulgar manner and whites as if they are their masters...

middle class ugly air hostesses

Air hostesses are high prole, at best. See, e.g., Paul Fussell, Class.

"middle class ugly air hostesses"

Are you talking about an American airlines or Air India?

Interesting to note... is a flight attendant's (air hostess is an outdated term) job performance based on attractiveness level?

Most airlines in India think so... flight attendant advertisements usually call for certain height and weight requirements, and express preference for fair skin and clear complexions(http://www.businessinsider.com/2009/1/air-india-fires-fat-flight-attendants). In fact I remember reading some claim that non-thin flight attendants are a safety risk.

i think the most salient thing about MJ's children is that they have straight hair. look at thandie newton's 1/4 black children, or halle berry's 1/4 black children. the tightness of curl is proportional to the shape of the follicle. people who have an african parent don't have the same follicle shape, but even an intermediate follicle shape produces curly hair, so if you code hair form as "curly" vs. "non-curly," curly is "dominant" (though if you measure how tight the curl is, then there is some discernible effect by the non-african parent).

re: skin color, the genetics of this are well known. about 4-6 genes are responsible for 90% of the skin color variation in world populations. the genes are SLC24A5, SLC45A2, TYR,OCA2,KITLG,DCT, and a few others. the genes which cause light skin in east asians and europeans are somewhat different. the genes that cause dark skin are all the same. it seems that humans evolved their dark skin as a new feature 2 million years ago after fur loss, and there's only one way to really make sapiens dark. in contrast turning light is easy, because it is just turning the genes off, and you can turn them off in multiple ways (for genetics nerds i'm not using terms like "loss of function" or "knockout" cuz i want to be intelligible).

extremely light populations, like swedes, tend to have the genes all turned off. very dark ones, like sub-saharan africans and melanesians have all the genes operative. the fact that people who are the offspring of swedes and africans have a brown tone is because the combination has an effect like addition, you just tote up all he functional variants which produce darker skin (more melanin) and the complexion is proportional to the dosage.

for the offspring of someone with a medium brown complexion and a very light complexion the outcome is very unpredictable. i can illustrate with a simple schematic.

humans are diploid, we have 2 copies of all genes. we get 1 copy out of 2 from each parent. as i said above how dark a person is can be determined by just toting up how many functional variants of a gene they have. so, imagine that skin color variation is due to 4 genes.

the darkest person would have a genetic "architecture" like so:

Gene 1 Dark Dark
Gene 2 Dark Dark
Gene 3 Dark Dark
Gene 4 Dark Dark

the lightest person like so

Gene 1 Light Light
Gene 2 Light Light
Gene 3 Light Light
Gene 4 Light Light

what happens if these people have a child? there can be only one combination, as there is no variation above:

Gene 1 Light Dark
Gene 2 Light Dark
Gene 3 Light Dark
Gene 4 Light Dark

one parent will always give a light copy, one parent will always give a dark copy.

what would the genetic architecture be of someone who is midway between light and dark, a brown person? it could be like this:

brown A
Gene 1 Light Light
Gene 2 Light Light
Gene 3 Dark Dark
Gene 4 Dar Dark

or, it could be like this

brown B
Gene 1 Light Dark
Gene 2 Light Dark
Gene 3 Light Dark
Gene 4 Light Dark

these two people would look the same. remember that color is determined by adding up how many dark copies you have. doesn't matter too much how they're allocated across the genes. but what happens if this person ends up marrying a swede? the range of offspring they would have is determined by their genetic architecture.

so, in the case of brown A, the offspring would have this architecture:

Gene 1 Light Light
Gene 2 Light Light
Gene 3 Dark Light
Gene 4 Dark Light

what about brown B? the expectation is the same, but there's a huge variation. you see, the person has a Light and a Dark copy on each gene, so there's a 50% chance of contributing a Dark or Light copy on each gene. so there is a 6.25% chance that the child will be like this:

Gene 1 Light Light
Gene 2 Light Light
Gene 3 Light Light
Gene 4 Light Light

very pale. and a 6.25% chance that the child will be like this:

Gene 1 Light Dark
Gene 2 Light Dark
Gene 3 Light Dark
Gene 4 Light Dark

very close to the brown parent's color. the expectation though is that the child will be in between. i rigged the genetic architecture in brown B so that the offspring complexion can be thought of as a binominal distribution. the reality is that brown people have diverse genetic architectures, and the offspring will be a range of colors (as we know).

i go into the topic in detail because there isn't a need for folk biology. the genetics of skin color has been well characterized in the past 5 years. i have a detailed post on south asian skin color genetics here if you are more curious. also, since this shocks people, i will point you to another post where i show that it seems if there is a dominance effect genetically it is toward light not dark skin.

the examples above ignore gene-gene interaction, developmental stochasticity, etc. etc. but it gets to most of the variance.

Thanks Razib... that's really interesting! I always find genetics rather intriguing... any other interesting tidbits?

linzi, if u r interested in the genetics of pigmentation, see these queries, eye color & skim color. if you have access to a univ. library (i think you do skimming your blog), this paper is good, Molecular genetics of human pigmentation diversity. if you are interested in genetics in general, just read my blog :-) (at the link)

What was I to make of this mixed race family, desi female sitting openly in her white husband’s lap?

Truth in advertising, which of course Floridian will appreciate.

Slightly off topic (as I really dont care much about melanin content in skin or the fact that it can vary from person to person) - PIA was also in the news recently.

Meet the Rainbow Family.

The Daily Mail must have really reached the end of the newsiverse if they have do a story about a faithful wife and a happy family.

But will indians fall for ads that show them as they really are instead of like whitewashed bollywood actors?

" What was I to make of this mixed race family, desi female sitting openly in her white husband’s lap?

Truth in advertising"

HA! Oh man, I can't believe they did that. My dad is an airline pilot (Not for AI) and when I was little I used to be able to go and look at the cockpit before pushing back, my mom even flew in the cockpit once or twice, but after 9/11 strict rules were put in place in which no passenger is allowed to ever enter the cockpit. (And flight attendants give you dirty looks if you even look in the direction of the cockpit while boarding the plane.."Just seeing if I know the pilot....sorrrryyyyyyy...") After they push back from the gate, the cockpit door is supposed to be closed and locked. They have a peephole so that if flight attendants come (to bring them food or something) they can check and make sure all is clear before opening the door.

And AI was like... sure come sit in the jump seat... no problem!

razib "i think the most salient thing about MJ's children is that they have straight hair."

Thanks. Someone should have called out, "Is there a geneticist in the house!" sooner. I have looked at your blog, but wasn't sure how easy it was to get the pertinent info for this particular query. Come to think of it I have seen more black/other race mixes with pale skin than with straight hair.
What is more interesting to me is how we get the features, bone structure, body type and other less obvious traits. Paler races may just have the melanin genes "turned off" but Michael Jackson (before surgery) would not look like a Swede even if he was born looking as if he'd been chalk-dipped. However pale northern races look to southies, they do have a different genetic profile than albinos. At least that's what I read--
I have relatives who adopted. At a family function, some people who didn't know the kids were adopted, noted physical resemblances to the parents. And they weren't wrong. You can superimpose almost any feature "modified" as looking similar to someone else's.
another curiosity: There are northern races such as the Eskimos, the Siberian natives, Canadian natives, who have never gone blonde. How long does it take for the genes to "turn off?" A million years" half a million?"

The Daily Mail must have really reached the end of the newsiverse if they have do a story about a faithful wife and a happy family.

As for that AI ad. Does anyone think it's a hoax along with the Air France ad? - just look at the AF ad linked in the post and you'll notice that the French dude gets around.
Why, I think he has two families - one in France and the other in jolly England. Gotta be a put-on.
This inquiring mind wants to know!

There are northern races such as the Eskimos, the Siberian natives, Canadian natives, who have never gone blonde. How long does it take for the genes to "turn off?" A million years" half a million?

blonde hair and blue eyes emerged only within the last 10,000 years. so very quickly. the swarthiness of some of these people might have to do with high marine content in their food (lots of vitamin d).

It's the service that needs to be improved..the bad attitude of middle class ugly air hostesses who treat desis in a vulgar manner and whites as if they are their masters...

Come on. How do the Desi passengers treat the flight attendents (what you call "air hostesses")???

Do they tream them like their nokars? Maybe that's the reason why the flight attendents cop attitude.

"blonde hair and blue eyes emerged only within the last 10,000 years. so very quickly. the swarthiness of some of these people might have to do with high marine content in their food (lots of vitamin d)."

who's been the most north the longest? I thought the Eskimos and Aleuts and Siberians have been in their spots for at least 20,000 years...the nordic types have been there longer or shorter? Did this happen gradually or did the blond mutants just pop out with no warning like in Village of the Damned (1960 version)? Blonde hair is not confined to Scandinavia. Why not Native Americans in Canada?
I understand that climate has influenced where certain kinds of people lived, and has had an effect on the types of people who survive best. But is it conclusive? If so, what explanation?
Will Nigerians now living in Sweden, if there is no mixing, turn into nordics in the next 10,000 years? As far as I know whites living in Australia and South America still have to worry about sunburn. I don't know razib. the jury's still out on the whole and total history of the human race. We don't know it all yet.

.

lamy, you're wrong on many of the details. for example, the inuit replaced the dorset people in greeland within the last 1,000 years. if you are genuinely interested in the topic please see the review i linked to above. but

1) no one knows exactly why populations have gotten so light within the last 10,000 years. both west and east eurasians have depigmented a fair amount since the last ice age according to genetic analyses (some of the other features of east asians are new too, such as the thick straight hair due to a change on the EDAR gene).

2) no one knows why the variation in lightness is as it is. there are plenty of speculations, which will you see at the link above.

3) the sami people of northern scandinavian are darker than the peoples to the south (finns and swedes), so the relative darkness of circumpolar people suggests that complexion isn't a monotonic function of latitude

4) the gene responsible for 30-40% of the african vs. european color variation, and 30-40% of the variation in color among south asians, slc24a5, has changed in *west eurasia* only within the last 10,000 years. in east asians and africans it remains in its ancestral variant, which results in darker skin. specifically, it looks like the new lightening variant started rapidly rising in frequency 6,000 years ago, and went from 0 to 100% in europeans within a few thousand years, and 0 to 80-90% in northwest india, and is as high as 50% in much of south india. but there is a 95% confidence interval, so that there is a small chance that the gene started rising in frequency 20,000 years ago (2.5% chance).

5) the gene for 3/4 of the eye color variation in europeans is the OCA2-HERC2 complex. it seems that the gene effects skin color too, but its effect in the iris is much larger. tissue specific expression isn't too surprising. it too seems to have been subject to a recent selective sweep.

anyway, as i said, please read Molecular genetics of human pigmentation diversity if you want to know what we do know. there is a difference between 10,000 years and 200 years btw (how long australian whites have been in australia).

ok. I'll read up on it. Thanks for the link.

also, it does seem that the circumpolar peoples have been resident in the north for a long time. the easiest way to peg this is body form, as well as some peculiar metabolic adaptations. body form is something that seems to take some time to change, a physical anthropologist told me that amazonian tribesmen look "more siberian" in their ratios than they do other tropical peoples. the implication here is that the 10,000 years (minimum) that these populations have inhabited the new world hasn't been enough time for them to revolve the long lean forms which are common among tropical populations. they are longer and leaner than siberians or american indians who are resident in canada, but still much closer to these groups than they are to tropical peoples.

so my own position is that the highest likelihood for why some populations have become so pale within the last 10,000 years is the switch to agriculture and concomitant vitamin deficiencies. ergo, hunter populations which have a lot of meat and marine don't need to evolve light skin to compensate. i have a very low confidence in this hypothesis though. we just don't know enough. characterizing the proximate genetic architecture of a trait is *much easier* than adducing its ultimate evolutionary history and the selective forces that shaped it.

"so my own position is that the highest likelihood for why some populations have become so pale within the last 10,000 years is the switch to agriculture and concomitant vitamin deficiencies."

Huh? sorry. You've lost me here. My objections are so obvious that I know there's a trick answer. Did the people change because they started farming, or did they have to start farming and then they changed?
Do you mean grains make you pale? Meat makes you dark? In that case upper class English from the middle-ages on, should be brown as Robin Hood's barn because the animals who gave their lives for that lot, number in the billions. Should they continue in this manner, will they become brown? You say that a few hundred years is not enough to tell. Well, you should be able to tell something -- either diet has an effect on phenotype, barring other influences, or it doesn't. A few hundred years, some 10 generations. You should be able to draw some conclusions. The same conditions don't persist for milennia--they shift and change constantly.
Vegetarianism never made Indians any lighter.

Deficient in vitamins? grains and vegetables are loaded with vitamins.
We do know that protein causes people to grow to the extent possible for their genetics. Rice has been pegged for zinc deficiency causing problems in Iran, and the Japanese averaged under 5 ft. before their national diet changed, but no color change has been noticed. American Indians have had a corn based diet for centuries....
Speaking of the Japanese, years ago I read about a popular operation there that removed the lower part of the colon. This was supposed to make their skin clear and pale. I wonder if anyone has ever investigated whether there is something going on their there because I've never noticed people anywhere else become paler when part of their lower intestine was removed.
The genetics link is good but the idea that "vitamin deficiencies" are responsible for creating the world's major races sounds like satire. I dunno razib. I'm not snarking. Just thinking. The answer's out there.
...all due respect.

grains and vegetables are loaded with vitamins.

vitamin D is found in marine organisms and animals with a lot of sun exposure. or skin exposure. in any case, i'm not going to argue with you. a lot of your assertions are not even wrong.

and to be clear, i have a low confidence in the vit D theory personally. but your critiques exhibit no awareness of basic evolutionary genetic parameters as a function of time, else you wouldn't offer some of the examples you're offering. see population genetic notes, especially the genetics of natural selection.

"razib on July 10, 2009 09:04 PM · Direct link
grains and vegetables are loaded with vitamins.

vitamin D is found in marine organisms and animals with a lot of sun exposure. or skin exposure. in any case, i'm not going to argue with you. a lot of your assertions are not even wrong.

101 · razib on July 10, 2009 09:16 PM · Direct link
and to be clear, i have a low confidence in the vit D theory personally. but your critiques exhibit no awareness of basic evolutionary genetic parameters as a function of time, else you wouldn't offer some of the examples you're offering. see population genetic notes, especially the genetics of natural selection."

well, I did read portions of the Origin of Species on my own time. I have just enough "awareness of basic evolutionary genetic parameters as a function of time" to know you'd call me on the perceived lack.

Still, as you have noticed, I am not a scientist and will leave the debates and theories to them.
Glad you are not convinced about the vitamin theory because I just know that dog don't hunt.
I will read those links which do not involve advanced mathematical equations. Thank you for your patience.

Vitamin D is produced within the human body and we activate that when we expose ourselves to the sun. Get out in the sun for a short time every day without sunscreen and you are good to go.

For vegetarians, marinephytoplanktons are an awesome source of many vital nutrients, highly concentrated, that all humans need for optimal health. I recommend frozen marine phyto planktons, as they would be the second freshest. First is diving under and picking a bunch yourself and eating it right then and there. But who does that?

Comment 71 -- terrific points, thanks! Loved the insight about where the Maharaja came from. It's so true -- the Maharaja, like the Amul butter campaigns, was a smart, snarky advertising icon rather than a throwback to the princely era.

(Also, regarding Air India: compares very favorably with American Airlines.Way better food, for instance.)

The ad campaign actually ran. It was not a 'scam' for awards.

Vitamin D is produced within the human body and we activate that when we expose ourselves to the sun. Get out in the sun for a short time every day without sunscreen and you are good to go.

Getting out for a shirt time every day isn't going to cut it for even light skinned folks and people with a darker skin tone is at a much higher risk of Vitamin D deficiency. So please try not to spread old ideas that are proven to be wrong now.

Getting out for a shirt time every day isn't going to cut it for even light skinned folks and people with a darker skin tone is at a much higher risk of Vitamin D deficiency. So please try not to spread old ideas that are proven to be wrong now.

OK, then eat marine phyto planktons. I also included that in my comment.

I'm in the sun daily and eating my MPPs and vitamin D levels are perfect.

I hate these ads. I am recovering from being sexually harassed and these ads almost exacerbate my trauma. I would not feel so bad if the ads were more mixed in terms of which race was the male. Meaning an Indian guy with Padma Lakshmi. Or an Indian guy with Frieda Pinto. I am still recovering from what I went through.

Pankaj

Air India is a joke. Indians everywhere in the world worship white skin, including yours truly ;).

White is always right; brown is always down.

I believe I have the mind of a Tamil in a light skinned warrior body. Best of both worlds. I'm so light skinned I could replace the white gentleman in the photo.

I am recovering from being sexually harassed and these ads almost exacerbate my trauma.

I hear ya! Tell me about it.....

I think the fear of sunning is misplaced. New research overwhelmingly shows us that Vitamin D is not really a vitamin, but an essential hormone that controls our immune system. Vitamin D is the strongest cancer fighting agent the body has. Vitamin D also improves mood and fights insulin insensitivity, which can lead to obesity. The whole reason people became white in the first place was to allow their skin to soak up more Vitamin D in the less sunny northern environments they settled. The darker your skin, the more sun you need to get your Vitamin D. Studies show that almost half of the people living in Hawaii and Saudi Arabia are deficient in vitamin D. Flu virus spreads in the darker months, when our cumulative Vitamin D is lowest- this is also the time when seasonal depression hits. MS and autism are most common in areas with little sunlight, farthest from the equator. Melanoma is only slightly correlated with sun exposure, and is the least dangerous cancer. Even people with melanoma can benefit from moderate amounts of Vitamin D. For those concerned with bone health, remember that without vitamin D calcium is useless. Vitamin D also fights allergies. I see people who would go insane if a shaft of light should alight on their young child's skin. I think a case could be made that the entire sun phobia has been created by the companies that sell sunscreen, which is loaded with cancer causing agents. You couldn't pay me to use that junk. I live in Chicago and tan during the winter, and it is a great mood booster as well. It's only common sense that our ancestors spent most of their time outdoors for hundreds of thousands of years, in fresh air and sun, not sitting inside playing video games in a dark room. Go out and get some sun, but don't burn.

oh my gosh! that totally doesn't look like us. ;)

This is hilarious-are we sure this isn't a rejected Benetton ad? My white fiancee and I were enjoying looking at these photos. I must echo a previous reader's comment that its refreshing that the Desi characters used in these ads are very very dark skinned. Maybe my brother and I should rethink that bet we made with our parents 15 years ago about never flying to India on Air India ever again (although I will certainly miss the maharajah!)

Wow, a lot of you seem so educated and open minded, yet the discussion for this blog is revolved around the whole light skin vs dark skin. Seriously? Just be glad that little baby HAS skin. She doesn't look "half Indian" either, Indian people's looks vary from very light to very dark, so it's very difficult to identify a mixed Indian with a full one.

And as for MJ's kids, those aren't his, he had a sperm donor.

"Wow, a lot of you seem so educated and open minded, yet the discussion for this blog is revolved around the whole light skin vs dark skin."

since when is a scientific discussion of the genetic expression of a certain trait bad? I don't think anyone was trying to insinuate one was better than the other... it was more wondering how something works... i.e. how a certain trait is passed on.

LinZi--It doesn't matter. The fact that the baby's skin color was even brought up (in a discussion for a blog that is written to describe changes that Air India has made, might I remind you) still shows the somewhat backwards thinking of many "modern" Indian-Americans today.

Why else would they want to know how light skin is passed on? You think there aren't any Indian women lurking around here taking notes on how to get their babies to have lighter skin?

"LinZi--It doesn't matter. The fact that the baby's skin color was even brought up (in a discussion for a blog that is written to describe changes that Air India has made, might I remind you) still shows the somewhat backwards thinking of many "modern" Indian-Americans today."

Jenna-- I brought it up. And I'm not an Indian.

Okay, LinZi, perhaps your Indian boyfriend's mentality has gotten to you and now all you look at is people's skin or maybe it was always this way. Maybe your Indian boyfriend and you are planning to have a kid, but if it looked full Indian you would change your mind, I don't know, there are only so many reasons I can come up with. May I ask why you brought it up? The subject seems completely irrelevant.

And you may have brought it up, but no one is forcing anyone to respond and keep discussing such an inane topic, they choose to.

Indians are not the only one who prize "light skin". I have found this all the brown cultures that I have been exposed to. For whites they like a "healthy tan".

I think its about achieving some sort of golden hue between dark cocao and snow white/shell pink.

Jenna: "Okay, LinZi, perhaps your Indian boyfriend's mentality has gotten to you and now all you look at is people's skin or maybe it was always this way. Maybe your Indian boyfriend and you are planning to have a kid, but if it looked full Indian you would change your mind, I don't know, there are only so many reasons I can come up with. May I ask why you brought it up? The subject seems completely irrelevant.

And you may have brought it up, but no one is forcing anyone to respond and keep discussing such an inane topic, they choose to. "

Well, first why don't you try to read what I wrote without any of your previous assumptions. if you actually read any of my comments you will realize that I never once said anything about wanting lighter skinned children, or how to get a lighter skinned child.

My Indian boyfriend also is not the kind of person who bases beauty on skin color... Maybe you ought to throw your assumptions about the "backwards" Indians out.

Why did I bring it up? Well basically I was looking at those families with the beautiful parents (Both of them!) and babies, and thinking "hmm I wonder what our kids would look like?" I don't mean this is a "oh good they better look ______" way but rather a sense of curiosity, the same way someone might wonder what if their child will inherit their mom or dad's nose, eyes etc. This was NEVER out of a sense of preference for white skin.. in fact, I was a bit disappointed to think my children might end up closer to my skin tone (base don scientific evidence) rather than having beautiful brown skin. I haven't had very many opportunities to see other children who have an Indian parent and an American white parent, so I was happy to see these families depicted (though, of course, we don't know if they are actually related or just random people posing).

I also brought this up because I have noticed that in America people always assume they a child of a mixed race couple will always look more like the race that's not white, whatever that is. People act like 'whiteness' is some sort of blank slate that will just absorb traits or something. This connected with MJ because people look at his kids and assume it is impossible for an African American to have such 'white' looking kids... I thought this was incorrect, and then we began discussing genetics to understand how traits as passed on, and what is possible or not...

Jenna-- I think it's pretty obvious that you have some stereotypes about what Indian people think, and maybe you should address this... Talking about skin tone doesn't necessarily mean that people are favoring one over the other. Why can't people just be genuinely curious about 'the way genetic traits are passed down" in a scientific way? You don't find it interesting... or do you think the only way not to be racist is to be "color blind". Maybe you feel scared and uncomfortable with the topic of skin color in the first place. I don't think talking about skin color is something racist, unless you have a biased towards a certain color.

so, what are we saying? leaving cream of wheat on overnight doesn't work?

Indians are not the only one who prize "light skin". I have found this all the brown cultures that I have been exposed to

Well, perhaps they're just being polite while your exposing yourself.

I never once said anything about wanting lighter skinned children

You don't have to, but I'll believe you.

thinking "hmm I wonder what our kids would look like?"

Well you might not have a preference (since you say so), but it's still irrelevant and terribly shallow. If you're gonna have kids, fine, but wondering (or even worrying) about what they will look just seems awful, don't worry you aren't the only one, lots of people do it, quite sad actually. Maybe you are just innocently wondering, but I find it a bit strange you have to do that (taking time to type it out) on the internet, on a comment thread for a blog that is about Air India's improvements. You do realize there are scientific blogs and forums where you can post such inquiries about "the way genetic traits are passed down". By the way, there are more genetic traits than just skin color, you know, but I don't see you talking about them.

People act like 'whiteness' is some sort of blank slate that will just absorb traits or something. This connected with MJ because people look at his kids and assume it is impossible for an African American to have such 'white' looking kids..

As for MJ, he had a sperm donor, he isn't the biological father of those kids which explains why those kids look fully "white"

I think it's pretty obvious that you have some stereotypes about what Indian people think

Hm. Not really, I don't. I'm Indian myself (yes, my real name is Jenna). My entire family is Indian so I'm pretty sure I have an idea of what their mindset is like. I despise the Indian people who are stuck on the "light skin is better" thing. And guess what? There are a lot of those, some are good at hiding it and some don't even bother to because they see nothing wrong with it. I know there are some that don't care about skin, but they're indeed a minority.

Well, first why don't you try to read what I wrote without any of your previous assumptions. if you actually read any of my comments you will realize that I never once said anything about wanting lighter skinned children, or how to get a lighter skinned child

Jenna=PG?

In any event, you seem to be stuck in stereotype land. May be you should listen/ read what others have to say. Oh wait, you won't. You'd rather spew some racist remarks and regurgitate some stereotypes about Indians. sigh...

Jenna... if you care so little, why did you bring up in the first place?

I think it's really sad that you can't see past whatever narrow minded view points you so firmly believe in.

Anyways, I don't know why I am bothering, but let me delve into this again:

"Well you might not have a preference (since you say so), but it's still irrelevant and terribly shallow. If you're gonna have kids, fine, but wondering (or even worrying) about what they will look just seems awful, don't worry you aren't the only one, lots of people do it, quite sad actually."

Right. There is a difference between imagining what your kids would look like and ascribing certain traits as good or bad. Wondering and worrying are too different things entirely. Wondering is all "ahhh my kids would be so cute, I want to imagine them in their various possible cutenesses" worrying is more like "oh my good, I hope my kid doesn't my weird nose." In case it's not clear yet to you, I am pretty sure most people in this world wonder what their kids will look like. Why? Because it's fun to imagine the future. If you see wondering about things as bad well then I guess you must have a really warped view of imagination.

And I don't really care if you are Indian or not. You can't possible allow your family & friends viewpoints to stereotype EVERY person from India. I mean, please, I'm sure you know that regardless of nationality/ancestor, people's beliefs vary greatly. Just because people in your family use a vat of fair and lovely each month doesn't mean my boyfriend gives a crap about skin color.

Lastly, your random talk about "race" genes being dominant. I mean, I know it must been along time since 9th grade bio for you, but really... first of all what "African American and Mongoloid genes" are you even talking about? If you actually study some genetics, you will find that "race" is socially constructed!! So how can someone have "African American and Mongoloid genes" in the first place? And by the way.... the terms you use are rather outdated and offensive:

"The concept originated with a now disputed typological method of racial classification,[41][42]. All the -oid racial terms (e.g. Mongoloid, Caucasoid, Negroid, etc.) are now often controversial in both technical and non-technical contexts and may sometimes give offense no matter how they are used.[43] This is especially true of "Mongoloid" because it has also been used as a synonym for persons with Down Syndrome, and in English as a generic insult meaning "idiot".[44] A shortened version of the term, "mongo", is also used in the United Kingdom, mainly Scotland. Contrary to popular beliefs, Mongoloid refers to diverse ethnical groups, and not of a homogeneous group." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid_race#Criticism)

And if you are referring to specific genes, such as eye color, eye shape, skin tone, hair color, nose shape, height, etc etc all of these are different. For example, eye color is pretty simple. Brown eyes are dominate over blue. (I don't know about green/hazel). Skin tone, on the other hand is influenced by many more genes. But I guess this is over your head. Or maybe you just don't really want to imagine, wonder, or understand anything new.

this chugging milk thing isn't working either, btw. i'm stil as dark as i always was and now a i'm 3 lbs heavier, in case anyone's taking notes.

Wow, a lot of you seem so educated and open minded

well, that'll teach ya to stop stereotyping

No, American Mallu, I'm not Jenna.

Y'all are slippin'.

You accuse me of being behind comments that don't sound like me in any way, shape, form nor vibe.

What's up widdat?

Lastly, your random talk about "race" genes being dominant. I mean, I know it must been along time since 9th grade bio for you, but really... first of all what "African American and Mongoloid genes" are you even talking about? If you actually study some genetics, you will find that "race" is socially constructed!! So how can someone have "African American and Mongoloid genes" in the first place? And by the way.... the terms you use are rather outdated and offensive:..............Contrary to popular beliefs, Mongoloid refers to diverse ethnical groups, and not of a homogeneous group."

I'm not well read regarding genes. When the term "genetic markers" are referred to, what does it mean? Also, "ethnicity" or "ethnic group" - aren't those just terms for "race"?

Explain to me, in a nutshell, the connection between genes and ethnic group, if any.

You'd rather spew some racist remarks and regurgitate some stereotypes about Indians

Hey don't get mad at me just because there ARE Indian people who don't like their (or others) skin color. I said I won't read every little comment just because I don't have the time, if I did, I would love to read them all to the last itty bitty detail. And if you understood what I said in my last comment, you'd understand that I stated there are some Indian people who DON'T give a rat's ass about skin color, the same goes for you LinZi, I never once said 'EVERY Indian person hates dark skin". Try rereading things and comprehending them before you accuse someone of being narrow minded. There is a program called "Hooked On Phonics" it will very much help you do so.

Jenna... if you care so little, why did you bring up in the first place?

What? Again, honey, Hooked On Phonics...

I am pretty sure most people in this world wonder what their kids will look like. Why? Because it's fun to imagine the future

So how can someone have "African American and Mongoloid genes" in the first place?

you will find that "race" is socially constructed

. the terms you use are rather outdated and offensive

Or maybe you just don't really want to imagine, wonder, or understand anything new.