Oh dear! I cringe with embarassment for the author of the news report!

lol. get them to change it, or people might find out an interesting fact about you via google :-)

Should schools with strict dress code policies make an exception to accommodate nose rings for Indian students on cultural grounds?

no. what is "indian culture"? though seriously, this is a case-by-case issue, but schools have to deal with a lot of bizarre regulations and rules to protect themselves from liability and such. if there are lots of members of "culture X" in a school, on a pragmatic basis the administration would probably respond, but kid are individualistic and want to dress and display how they want. why should someone get an "out" because one of their parents or they have a historic connection.

the rule sounds kind of dumb btw.

In my opinion, its fine as long as the school is school in question is non-discriminatory in its directives, i.e. nose-rings are as 'bad' as visible tattoos. At the same time, it is one thing to be appreciative of other cultures, but to allow all kinds of garb and accessories in school just takes away from the focus which should always be on education.

nose-rings are as 'bad' as visible tattoos

there are some cultures where visible tattoos (e.g., face tattoos) are really important.

Razib, I've emailed the reporter. He says they'll change it -- at least on the web.

I agree with the school. It is better not to allow any kind of religious/cultural symbols in the school. They can still follow whatever they want in their house.

In my Catholic school in Mumbai there were very strict rules regarding jewellery, hair, nails, sock length - you name it - so I guess I fail to see why a school cannot enforce a dress code as long as it is a fair and equitable one. It seems the school did try to accommodate her as well (transparent stud OK not ring).

It is better not to allow any kind of religious/cultural symbols in the school.

1) actually, most public schools in the USA will allow religious display in the united states if that display doesn't violate another rule. there's a public consensus that that's cool. this isn't france :-)

2) schools implicitly make decisions all the time which religious/cultural symbols and norms are allowed. IOW, "dress codes" inculcate particular cultural values. for example, the standard "suit" is a descendant of puritan formality, and to some extent represents a victory of calvinist sensibility over the flash and color of the cavaliers. the fact that the suit is viewed as "western" would make prince rupert cry.

As an AMERICAN (of Indian origin) I find it extremely disrespectful, also illegal, for a narrow-minded school district in a state dominated by a particular religious sect to ban a nose ring on a little girl. What's next: hijabs, yarmulkes, head-coverings for menonite girls? This action is narrow-minded, excluvistic, and so very typical of the current culture of talk-radio trash. This is not my America, or the America of MY friends, neighbors, or fellow citizens.

head-coverings for menonite girls

i think you mean amish. many mennonites don't dress in a particular way (all amish are mennonites, but not all mennonites are amish, etc.).

in any case, if she can make the case that it is a religious issue she would probably be allowed. the american culture and legal system will generally accommodate different forms of dress if it is an issue of free exercise in a way it would not if the justification is secular.

any other piercings

really amardeep, a nose ring is no reason to disown your daughter.

someone pull amardeep's credit card charges from 1997, and see if there were any trips to utah....

I agree that the school has a right to dictate certain standards, but this is a bit overboard.
The kid is not rebelling or wearing punk or goth tatts or piercings - it's for family and culture.
At least she can keep a transparent stud.

But I guess what happens in Utah, it seems, does not always stay in Utah :)

I can picture the conversation at home now, "I swear baby, I don't care
what 200+ newspapers around the country say - it wasn't me ! I ain't the baby daddy!

Let's just hope this isn't used as evidence against you years from now.

And what if some of the Nez Percé moved to Utah? http://www.nezperce.org/

I think the whole idea of allowing cultural and religious specific dress [that violates a school's specific dress code] is one of those things that is always going to be a bit confusing. Religious specific dress is pretty easy to pick out, as it is usually pretty clear within the religion that that is the norm... just as not cutting hair for Sikhs (who choose that path) or Muslims who choose to wear headscarves, etc.

The part that will become hairy is 'cultural' forms of dress. First of all, a response will deem whether or not that culture is recognized by the school-- being part of goth culture is generally not accepted as a 'real' culture by any institutions I have heard of, whereas something like embracing one's Ethiopian culture would most likely be accepted as 'real'. Generally it seems like American institutions would be more willing to accept a cultural identity from a group outside the U.S., more than they would of what Americans like to call 'sub-cultures' in the U.S.

The question of whether or not a person can legitimately identify that culture could also be hairy. I am engaged to an Indian, and I have some pretty snazzy salwaar suits, but I hesitate to wear them to my work (which has a dress code). Sure I lived in India. Sure, I am going to marry an Indian. Sure I speak Hindi. But I'm not sure people would see that as a legitimate reason for me to wear salwaar suits to work.

Now, I'm not saying which way is right or wrong, this is more thinking how (I think) people generally do react, rather than how they should.

How should they? I'm not really sure. There are a lot of institutions in the world that have dress codes or uniforms, schools being the most obvious of those. And they exist all over the world. If we want to expand the need to express cultural symbols to all of these places, I guess we might as not have a dress code/uniform at all, to allow everyone to dress in terms of there culture. (I don't know about you, but in my culture the gray wool skirts and oxford skirts that I wore in jr. high were not the norm for dress.)

I am not really sure what the answer should be. On one hand, uniforms and dress codes can have their purpose, on the other hand, work or school shouldn't stop you from expressing your culture in your 'real life' (if you are in school and you are not allowed nose piercings, then that affects your life outside of school too). Maybe just doing things case by case is the only way to go?

What's next: hijabs, yarmulkes, head-coverings for menonite girls?

don juanjeet rides into the sunset.

in any case, if she can make the case that it is a religious issue she would probably be allowed. the american culture and legal system will generally accommodate different forms of dress if it is an issue of free exercise in a way it would not if the justification is secular.

i used to think so too. but i was surprised to learn that many of the rulings that I thought were made under the free-expression (of religion) clause, like the boy scouts and st pattys day parade cases, were actually free speech cases, specifically scotus found a right to freedom of association (expressive association) which exits under the free speech clause, making the rulings rather wide...meaning they would apply to secular groups as well.

the sherbert test originally privileged religion, but ever since then scouts, including conservatives like scalia (in fact, especially conservatives like scalis) have been putting religion on par with secular beliefs while simultaneously applyuing very strict standards on the state as to when they can limit speech or expressions, religious or otherwise.

What an unfortunate error. I see that a correction has been made in this article (see bottom).

Melvin, yes, thankfully. However, it looks like the incorrect version is still going to be printed in quite a number of newspapers...

Hopefully the newspapers will print corrections too, Amardeep (though I'd be surprised if they ALL did). I found it noteworthy that the AP writer described you on first reference as "a Sikh who was raised in the United States" not as "a U.S.-born Sikh ..." or "a Sikh who was born and raised in the United States ..." Had he done so, perhaps an editor would have caught the error, since Suzannah's father is described in the fourth paragraph as India-born.

In any case, I think the job cuts in the newspaper industry, as well as the instant deadlines that the Internet demands, contribute greatly to errors like this.

Absolutely absurd! Our Puritanical history should not be the ethical driving force, for we are nation founded on the belief of individual rights and freedoms of Speech, Religion, etc. We mutinied against the Crown of Great Britain so that we could have the freedom to worship as we wished; if that includes a nose piercing or performing the five obligatory prayers, حافظوا على الصلوات. Why must we as a society insist on everyone being, looking and behaving the same? It is through our dynamic cultural, ethnic, and spiritual variety that the richness of the fabric of our nation is made stronger and more beautiful. When we start to pull threads out of the textile that may be different from the rest (as a whole), then the textile weakens and no longer is it beautiful as the gaping holes proclaim our shallow conformity. We must stop being fearful of the unknown or the different; we as a nation of "enlightened" citizenry must be more tolerant of difference. We have too many more important details to worry about, including the Health Care of our nation, the escalating national and personal debt, and the indigent of our nation and the world. Or are we just scared of what is staring back at us in the mirror? Are we afraid to allow children to develop individuality for fear that our enforced homogeneity will succumb and the nation crumble? I fear that we will crumble because of this fear rather than the loss of homogeneity! Open your eyes and your heart; embrace your fellow mankind for the true essence of humanity!

I presume all the pics were set up by the AP photographer. This one begs for a caption contest!

We mutinied against the Crown of Great Britain so that we could have the freedom to worship as we wished;

this is bad history. there were many reasons. but one of the precipitating factors was the quebec act of 1774, which reestablished the status of the catholic church in french canada. the colonists, generally dissenters, suspected a "romish" plot. remember that during the revolution most of the colonies had established churches.

it is true that several of the colonies were founded or served as havens for protestant dissenters (and maryland was originally to serve as a haven for british catholics). but in the puritan colonies quakers were executed.

I dont think the school made that rule for the purpose of pissing off Indian people. I really hate it when people say this, but I am going to say it, "Stop being so politically correct." Are schools supposed to make rules on a case by case bases?

It is a nose ring! It is a culture thing and the key word being "culture". I would love it if European women would come to American beaches with no top on, but that isnt allowed here legally and culturally speaking, but it is culturally acceptable for europeans.

In Utah, I suspect that alot of people "culturally" want to have 8 wives, but they cant.

Culture is a can of worms this country doesnt need to open. As long as the religion is crapped on, then just follow the rule and be on your way.

But I do think that the suspension should be fought over. You explain yourself is a plausible way and the school still wants to suspend you then take it to the media.

Why do people always feel that they are the one exception to the rule? This is clearly a violation of the dress code and a cultural choice not religious. Somehow the whole melting pot thing does not work if you do not jump in. Would theses people feel the same if I went to their school carrying a gun? After all, I am from the south and it is part of our culture. Do you think my kids could bring their little hunting rifles because it makes them feel close to their Grandfather? The school district deserves all the "cultural experiences" they get if they cannot enforce their own rules!

You were right. I didnt get the error the first time. But now that you have pointed it out I think it should be ran in all the papers as a correction. It is "after the fact journalism" which is just crap.

Our American society has seemed to have forgotten freedom of religion and expression. The school would have to show that it was "substantially burdening" a person's exercise of religion and must further a compelling governmental interest, and use the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest. In this case the government would be the public school. She has a case.

I bet she was wearing American jeans and t-shirt when it happened

I think they should not. There are two categories of multi-culturalism. There is the all embracing variety we follow in India, where every religion gets its own holidays, and has all whims pandered to, schools and institutions are supposed to cave in to anything that goes by the tag of cultural or religious or ethnic. Then there is the French variety where no one gets any special treatment, personal beliefs are supposed to be just that, very personal. No prayers will be sung in school, nor will any God be praised. This clear cut separation might be better than all inclusive mixing.

Oh, I came to the article via Fark - glad it's been changed!! :)

I don't think that dress codes should be hard and fast when cultural dress comes into play. And yes, I do think it should be on a case by case basis as well. I think that the solution the girl and the school came up with was a good one, but I don't think there should have been a suspension, ever.

There are two categories of multi-culturalism.

no, there are lots of varieties.

But I do think that the suspension should be fought over.

the suspension is explicable in the context of lots of dumb "zero tolerance" rules which emerged to protect administrators from liability.

If we allow Muslim students to wear the hijab or cover their hair, and Pentecostal or Apostolic or other fundamental Christian girls to wear only skirts or dresses and not cut their hair, why in the world is a girl with Indian heritage being denied the right to a visual expression of that heritage? The tradition is hundreds or even thousands of years old. For crying out loud, let's stop being petty.

I turned down a job because they had issue with my small nose stud. They asked if I would take it out during the day and I said no, because it was important to me. They asked if it was religious, I said, no, it was cultural. They eventually offered me the job, but, despite being unemployed, I knew I couldn't work there. I remained unemployed for almost a year after that, but I'm still glad I didn't take it.

Maybe the AP reporter thought all Indians looked alike and couldn't tell Amardeep Singh from her dad. Like when the FOX News crew were joking about Bobby Jindal being in Slumdog Millionaire. All the same, ain'tcha?

Regarding the nose ring - I think the school are tightwads for banning it, but I support their right to, if it is consistent with their uniform policy. It's not religious but cultural. If they ban the turban, hijab or yarmulke, I think that's wrong. But the nose ring cannot be considered a religious essential in the way that the others are.

While the mistake is regrettable and very embarrassing for the reporter, it's not reason to stop talking to the press for stories that don't involve you directly if you have valuable insight/context to offer. and as a professor, desi and someone who has posted educated opinions on various topics, you've set yourself out to be an expert. don't punish the masses who need your input just because one reporter made a mistake. they happen.

p.s. i didn't mean your being desi makes you an expert:) but in the context of what the article is about, i can see why a reporter would approach you.

Bad Luck, Amardeep. The page has been archived. It will be pulled out, by your opponent's dirty tricks team, when you run for the US Senate in 2028. Imagine, Amardeep Singh, Prof. Lehigh University, and family in Utah!! If that fails, as dunceheaded gambits usually do, you will be painted as a radical, imagine, beyond your liberal arts scholarship (bad enough), you, Amardeep Singh, fought for human rights in NYC - as if NYC doesn't have enough rights already.

This is terrible journalism, straight out of the routine Jay Leno-Kevin Eubanks gags. Terrible!

Nose ring? Small issue. Wait till her little brother brings his Kirpan to school. That issue (among other things) nearly brought down the Quebec government.

Anyway, kids at my high school used to wear pajamas to school. But facial hair was prohibited. So one style conscious Muslim kid claimed his mustache was religiously required.

Jerk.

Given the importance of legitimate religious accomodation, us religious minorities shouldn't ask for accomodation where it isn't absolutely necessary.

Let's see, if I prevent my daughter from getting her nose pierced, I would be violating her religious freedom?

religious minorities shouldn't ask for accomodation where it isn't absolutely necessary

thankfully the 'minority' voices are stepping up -

The Muslim Canadian Congress called on the federal government to prohibit the two garments in order to prevent women from covering their faces in public – a practice the group said has no place in a society that supports gender equality.The tradition of Muslim women covering their faces in public is a tradition rooted more in Middle Eastern culture than in the Islamic faith, Hassan added.

despite the occasional violence

The editor of a Punjabi newspaper was held at gunpoint by three masked men outside the newspaper's offices in Brampton late on Friday night, during an attack and attempted kidnapping that may have been sparked by the Sikh man's anti-extremist political views, the victim said.

I think the nose ring ban is more a reflection of the school not permitting body piercings in general versus a specific aversion to this kid expressing her "Indianness". Frankly, I would be thrilled if the school doesn't permit body piercings - hopefully it means I won't have to go there with my kids when they are at that age ;-) That being said, the girl had the option to wear a transparent stud - a choice she refused to make before being suspended (if I recollect correctly). The school clearly does not want to go down the slippery slide of then dealing with various sub cultures and so on and I'm not sure that I can fault them for that. We do have the right to express our culture in many ways but it pays to keep the broader culture in mind as well. The issue of hijab, yarmulke, kirpan etc are different because of religious adherence/ expression. Nose rings? Come on! Find another way to express your culture or work with your school system for a reasonable compromise.

all the schools i went to in india didn't allow noserings. it was part of the dress code - the only jewellery allowed was a pair of small ear studs. no bangles, no nothing...not even mehendi was allowed. so i fail to see why the culture part of it should be such an issue. school is about education and dress codes are there for a reason - a reminder that as long as you are in school, you are a student; nothing more, nothing less. save culture for the family and keep it in your heart, there's no need to show it off in school. i must be growing old.

Sheetal,no bangles ? That means no Kara too ? The schools I attended in India also had strict dress code (no mehendi, no nail polish, no colored hair band etc), but never said no to nose rings if they were small and nondescript; yes, fancy colorful bangles were banned, but you could wear a Kara, even if you were not a Sikh (and these schools were not even in Punjab). Basically anything gaudy, too colorful and bollywood-ish were banned, but never any religious or cultural stuff. By and large, I liked (and still like) these policies because these rules tried to take the student's mind off the fashion distractions, and liked the fact that they were moderate.

IMHO, an earlier story in the Deseret News was worse...

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705340095/Girl-kicked-out-of-class-for-nose-ring.html

Mr. Zed gets MANY phone calls about "Indian religion."

The thing that gets me is that Desi parents in Desh are such sticklers when it comes to their kids following the rules and dress codes of their schools. But here in the West they want to go against school rules in the name of "culture" or "religion"?

I'm sorry but there is nothing in the Sikh religion or culture that says a girl must have a nose ring.

They would have to prove that first. Otherwise there is no reason the goths and what-not could not use same argument.

Otherwise there is no reason the goths and what-not could not use same argument.

As long as the piercing or clothing isn't distracting I really don't see what the issue is. This is just another example of inane "zero-tolerance" rules to liberate school admins. from the burden of having to think about how to deal with kids.

The thing that gets me is that Desi parents in Desh are such sticklers when it comes to their kids following the rules and dress codes of their schools.

But here in the West they want to go against school rules in the name of "culture" or "religion"?

from people who are typically all about the chronic post-modernist deconstruction of anything and everything?

Because all school administrators and educators are the same, yaar?

I think all schools should have either uniforms or dress codes. Who has time to evaluate each kid on an individual basis? Kids are hard enough to deal with as it is these days.

Nose rings have nothing to do with the Sikh religion or culture. It's a fashion trend.

people who are typically all about the chronic post-modernist deconstruction of anything and everything?

thats just code for not thinking things through...

Does anyone think that maybe that part of the issue might be her age? She's 12... I think in highschools across the US you'll find teenagers with numerous facial piercings. But we're talking about a 12 year old. For most kids that's 7th or 8th grade. That's really young.

Don't get me wrong... I'm all for nose piercing. I got mine done when I was 18. But in my opinion 12 is very very very young.

Don't get me wrong... I'm all for nose piercing. I got mine done when I was 18. But in my opinion 12 is very very very young.

why cant ppl just get left alone....

Because all school administrators and educators are the same, yaar?

I think all schools should have either uniforms or dress codes. Who has time to evaluate each kid on an individual basis? Kids are hard enough to deal with as it is these days.

I got mine done when I was 18. But in my opinion 12 is very very very young

Part of the burden of being a contrarian is that you're going to have some friction between yourself and "the man." A little Dennis the Menace style mischief is healthy for some kids. But explusion or suspension and other zero-tolerance rules over every minor or routine infarction (such as a nose-ring) or attempt to test the system's limits is just not good for creative, mischevious, or adventurous types. Rules that move from preventing kids from being unruly or disruptive to being docile little enseño-bots go too far for no real benefit to people's educations.

"Don't get me wrong... I'm all for nose piercing. I got mine done when I was 18. But in my opinion 12 is very very very young. "

Yeah, that is considered young in U.S. culture. But in India, I see little girls with nose peircing all the time. You cannot ignore the fact that in India having a nose ring is very much the norm-- just think of a typical bride's wedding jewellry. I don't approve of parents taking their babies in to get their ears pierced, etc, but if a little girl wants to get her ears or nose pierced, what's the big deal?

The name of the girl was also changed, from Suzannah to Savannah towards the end of the article! Sloppy...
I have no problems with nose piercing. I do think however that 12 years is young for it - if I had a daughter I wouldn't encourage it at such a young age. But she's not my daughter, and if the parents are okay with it I don't see the problem - it's just nose piercing.

The thing is that most Americans think nose-rings are "counter-cultural" and don't like it. In India, however, it isn't counter-cultural and isn't any more unusual than an ear piercing.

Yeah, but they are not living in India, right?

When in Rome........

Anyway, I wonder how supportive of their daughter "going against the man" her parents would be if she wanted to wander around India with her navel pierced while wearing a navel gazing halter top sans dupatta.

I think the parents need to grow up and learn to either follow the rules of the school or take their daughter out of it and perhaps put her in a school with more relaxed rules.

Kids "these days" aren't any more of a hassle than they were in the "good old days."

Are you a teacher?

Perhaps not desi and other asian kids, but for the most part, kids ARE more of a hassle, simply because their parents are.

There is no such thing as a "problem child".... just dysfunctional parents.

I blame this on the editor. The reporter seemed like a nice and competent guy (who mentioned he regularly reads SM). In this case if I were to guess, the editor wanted the story to take a certain angle that involved desis rising up in defense of this girl. I argued just the opposite: that this girl was full of crap and that a school not wanting her to wear a nose ring was FULLY within its rights. I think she is using the Indian culture defense as an excuse. If this was about a Kirpan or another religious ornament then my opinion would be different. This is no different than wanting to wear baggy pants or a 100 jelly bracelets in my opinion. It should be the school's call even if I personally think nose rings are cool.

I blame this on the editor. The reporter seemed like a nice and competent guy (who mentioned he regularly reads SM). In this case if I were to guess, the editor wanted the story to take a certain angle that involved desis rising up in defense of this girl.

And folks wonder why people have issues with media trust - if editors could simply edit and present what a journalist's findings are, vs. trying to frame an article with any agenda, they'd be better off. I'd rather read an article with minor editorial errors, rather than gross misrepresentations of facts/issues.

As a rule, I look at multiple articles from Google news in a hope to filter basic facts from editorial bias. The level of accuracy increases after corrections filter in, I guess, but said correction in many cases is already too late as people rarely read the article again or care about corrections after the fact...

I hit submit before finishing....

On to the focus:

Anyway, what do people think about the story itself? Should schools with strict dress code policies make an exception to accommodate nose rings for Indian students on cultural grounds?

I agree with Abhi here. Schools have the right to set policy. Frankly, I've always thought school uniforms are a good idea; kids don't really need to express their "culture" at school IMO. If there are legitimate religious symbols, they can/should be allowed. Schools are for education, not trying to empower kids with their individual expression (besides art/music/drama). Trying to co-opt any cultural symbol into a religious one is a slippery slope. It's narcissistic to assume that an individual's choice to "express" themselves needs to be accommodated in a public school. At home, out with friends, or any other personal time one should do what they wish.

IF the school allowed a transparent nose stud, heck, that's a good compromise. Put the bling on when you go home.

Nose rings have nothing to do with the Sikh religion or culture. It's a fashion trend.

I'm sure other people here besides me probably experienced uniforms in school-- and honestly-- when I switched to catholic school for 7th grade I was really excited about uniforms, because I thought it would cut back on all that silly clothing/brand/"in" competition crap (yes, I was already disillusioned with that in 7th grade, ha)...

We had to wear either a specific plaid gray wool skirt (with some red) or a plain gray wool skirt, with a white oxford button down shirt, white socks and black or brown dress shoes. We also could not wear anything more than small earrings. We also had a (hideous) burgundy sweater with the school logo (gag) that we could wear if we got cold.

On "gym" day we had burgundy sweatpants, sweatshirt, and shorts, and a white polo shirt.

Seems pretty regimented, right? Guess what though? It did NOTHING to stop the silly clothing completions. Poor (kids on scholarships and such) and uncool kids were just ridiculed for having the wrong shoes, bad haircuts, or for actually WEARING the burgundy sweater or shorts (both of which were a taboo no-no by the 'popular' crowd).

So, things like uniforms and dress codes, from my experience, really don't stop the silly judgments and pressures on kids about looking cool and being valued by having the right material possessions.... if you really want kids to stop that, I think we have to combat the way society teaches them to value that stuff, not by thrusting them in uniforms and thinking "problem solved".

LinZi, my experience was very similar to yours. However, I think uniforms are more strictly enforced in Desh than in the US.

Re: nose piercings? I'm with Abhi on this one.

I argued just the opposite: that this girl was full of crap and that a school not wanting her to wear a nose ring was FULLY within its rights. I think she is using the Indian culture defense as an excuse. If this was about a Kirpan or another religious ornament then my opinion would be different.

She made a small mistake, she should get a nose ring that looks like a tiny kripan - or better a nose ring in shape of tiny khanda. Yeah - that would work for some people.

Honestly, still don't see the different between getting a nose stud and piercing ears. Piercing ears is perfectly acceptable-- I got mine pierced when I was 6 (after asking for them many times). So why is 12 "too young" to get a nose stud?

I think they are both well within the norms of "acceptable" body jewelery--- now if she got three giant nose rings, pierced her lip, tongue, belly button or eyebrows then one might be like... she is too young to make that decision.. why, because all those holes might not close up, or may cause infections, get ripped out, scarring etc, that she might regret at an older age. But a tiny nose stud? It doesn't seem any different to me then a little girl getting her ears pierced.

The only difference is cultural norms--- here we see pierced ears are perfectly normal- you can dress up and wear earrings and be considered "professional" looking, etc. I also have seen a lot of women with small nose studs who do not have any problem wearing a nose stud while looking professional-- it may be a somewhat newer form of peircing in U.S. culture, but it really isn't outlandish or wild--- it's not making a choice so extreme that it will affect your work opportunities as an adult (like getting "gangsta" tattooed on your knuckles, or having horn implants inserted in your forehead).

I mean, common, a nose stud? Is that really too much for a 12 year old to have? I wonder how many of you had your ears pierced at a much younger age than that (or pierced your child's ears at a younger age)

I a not personally Indian, or of Indian descent, so it might seem a bit strange that I'm commenting on this at all, but I do find it interesting. I'm actually responding because of a comment that was quoted in the MSNBC article. In the article, a person named Nankani is quoted as saying the following:

Like Singh, Nankani is frequently asked questions about her culture and religion — are Hindus really polytheistic? (Yes, but all the Hindu gods are really one.) Does she eat meat? (No.) Does she celebrate Thanksgiving? (Yes — she's an American citizen.)

"I've been to multiple dinners where the entire two hours is us being asked all these questions," she said. "It can get difficult ... it does feel like a load sometimes

."

My "take" on this is that this is not necessarily a negative thing, or at least does not "HAVE TO" be. The standard complaint for years against Americans is that we:
(a) know very little about the rest of the world, and
(b) actually "care" even less.

If people are asking this person detailed questions about her culture and background, I would perhaps see that as a positive thing; they're not trying to "pry" or treat her like an exhibit at some "culture display". They're curious to learn more about her culture and are genuinely interested. Knowledge of other cultures is always a good thing. I can't help but see that as "A Good Thing", as Martha Stewart would put it.

Anyway...

Peace, Out.

Anyway, what do people think about the story itself? Should schools with strict dress code policies make an exception to accommodate nose rings for Indian students on cultural grounds?

Absolutely not.

If Indian kids are allowed to wear it based on "cultural grounds" than any kid should be able to wear it based on "cultural grounds" as well. Nose piercings are no longer uncommon in the US because the fashion trend has become part of the culture here as well now, just as the fashion trend has been made popular in India hundreds of years ago.

What makes it more "cultural" -- for a fashion trend to be hundreds of years old instead of just 20?

No, it is not a fashion trend & my great grand-ma was not a goth! It has been worn from generations (the Sikh culture is not entirely different from the rest of the desi culture)

Your grand-ma was following the fashion trend, or else her parents were making her follow it (if she had her nose pierced when she was a baby or small child.

There is no deep cultural meaning behind the desi nose ring, and if there is, let's hear it!

Again, just because a trend is hundreds of years old, does not mean that it is not a fashion trend.

Perhaps 100 years from now, non-desis can claim their nose rings "cultural" as well.

Yeah, but they are not living in India, right?

When in Rome........

There is no deep cultural meaning behind the desi nose ring, and if there is, let's hear it!

I have always been of the opinion that rules ought to actually, you know, serve some sort of function. School boards aren't just entitled to make up rules for whatever suits their fancy. The rules are supposed to make for a good learning environment. How exactly does a restriction against a regular, inoffensive nosering promote that?

YogaFire, I agree with you in that!

Strange, but true, I guess we can agree sometimes :)

WASPY distaste for piercings

Judaism prohibits piercings too (well, some kinds are prohibited at least, and there's a general distaste).
So, i-banker wannabe's had better, 'twixt the Wasps and the Jews, avoid piercings.

What exactly is the deep cultural meaning behind the WASPY distaste for piercings?

The administration of this particular school are all white-anglo-saxon-protestants?

Proof?

Anyway, I don't have a distate for piercings. I have a few myself.

However, if the school has a rule, why aren't the parents and student following it? Appearantly it's not been difficult for others in the same school to follow. They always have the option of putting her in a school with no such rule.

I'd like to see more navel piercings in Desh.

Shekshy.

The administration of this particular school are all white-anglo-saxon-protestants?

However, if the school has a rule, why aren't the parents and student following it? Appearantly it's not been difficult for others in the same school to follow.

They always have the option of putting her in a school with no such rule.

I'd like to see more navel piercings in Desh.

Judaism prohibits piercings too (well, some kinds are prohibited at least, and there's a general distaste).

I'd like to see more navel piercings in Desh.

............

I don't see what this has to do with anything. I have also seen plenty.

..............

Where? And how?

;)

Mostly at weddings, which are some of the rare events these days where younger women will wear saris.

I am actually a little perplexed as to how midriff baring is cool with a translucent bit of fabric over it, but uncool with a T-Shirt on, but whatever. As long as you're not being expelled from school over it. . .

Again, just because a trend is hundreds of years old, does not mean that it is not a fashion trend.

You should be happy to know that in our version today, Wednesday, Nov. 11, in the Virginian-Pilot from Norfolk, VA, Mr. Singh is not referred to as the father. So maybe someone was listening and fixed it. And please don't mess with me about my bad grammar.

Abhi wrote,

I blame this on the editor. The reporter seemed like a nice and competent guy (who mentioned he regularly reads SM). In this case if I were to guess, the editor wanted the story to take a certain angle that involved desis rising up in defense of this girl. I argued just the opposite: that this girl was full of crap and that a school not wanting her to wear a nose ring was FULLY within its rights. I think she is using the Indian culture defense as an excuse. If this was about a Kirpan or another religious ornament then my opinion would be different. This is no different than wanting to wear baggy pants or a 100 jelly bracelets in my opinion. It should be the school's call even if I personally think nose rings are cool.

agree apart from the baggy pants which are just too cool for school.

I am actually a little perplexed as to how midriff baring is cool with a translucent bit of fabric over it, but uncool with a T-Shirt on, but whatever. As long as you're not being expelled from school over it. . .

Neither is "cool" if a school has a dress code against either. Same with the nose ring. If the school has a no nose ring rule, then why does this girl expect to get a special pass just for being desi???

Going by your argument everything is a fashion trend, nothing is cultural (including saris). It is good to see that even goddess Kanyakumari is following the fashion trend!

Please, the girl is claiming "cultural" and even "religious" grounds for a nose ring. Her grandma wore one and she wants to be like her grandma. Yeah, and.....?

That's no difference than a non-desi dude or girl in the school sporting a nose ring because their brother/sister/neighbor does so and they want to be like them.

Again, why the expectation of extra special treatment because she is brown?

well, it is different if it is your heritage rather than Julie-next-door-wears-stirrup-pants-so-iwanna-too.

And anyways, she is half-desi and half-gori, so seeing as how she is from multiple heritages, it might be important for her to be able to identify with both.

And anyways, she is half-desi and half-gori, so seeing as how she is from multiple heritages, it might be important for her to be able to identify with both.

A Sikh marrying a white woman is as common as a Hindu or Muslim Desi doing likewise.

At my mosque, I always find it interesting that the gori brides of Pakistani men will be the ones to don the niqab (face veil). I remember, this one Pakistani woman, looked at this gori and said, "Shit, you married a Pakistani, what's with the Gulf Arab dress and face covering? Why are you not wearing the national dress of Pakistan? Shalwar kameez anyone? "

What's next: hijabs, yarmulkes, head-coverings for menonite girls? This action is narrow-minded, excluvistic, and so very typical of the current culture of talk-radio trash. This is not my America, or the America of MY friends, neighbors, or fellow citizens.

that's a mighty slippery slope there...

is it too much to ask for us to draw a distinction between religious REQUIREMENTS (a la hijabs) and religious/cultural symbols?

Gustavo,

You may not realize this, but most gori brides of South Asians have to deal with a lot discrimination from some members of the South Asian community about their marriage... since we represent the amoral, uncouth divorcing Americans ... I don't know the gori brides you meet, but perhaps they were feeling extra pressure to prove that they are nice moral people and also cultural respectful, hence maybe going a bit overboard for the dress...

LinZi,

The animosity towards gori brides is multifaceted.

Dress among Muslims is quite contentious especially since dress can be a signifier of one's view on their religion. A woman who shuns traditional Punjabi dress for drab, monochromatic "Arab" clothing, can be seen as an "extremist."

White women may be envied because of their fair complexions. I notice sometimes Indian bridal catalogs use non-Indian women as models for saris, lengha cholis, etc. The practice of using Eastern European women for such photo spreads is quite common and not unheard of.

I'm Afghan, a non-Desi South Asian, and some Desi guys love Pushtun women, Tajik women, or fair skin Uzbek women who look more "Caucasian." Many Afghans look "East Asian" like the Hazara and some Uzbeks. Some Afghans are quite fluent in Hindi/Urdu. Some Afghan women have made their debuts in Bollywood, where fair skin and "Caucasoid" features are prized.

If I was the editor of Vogue India, I would go to Karachi or Gujarat, and scout out an Afro-Pakistani or Afro-Indian Sheedi/Habshi, it is about time that Desis celebrate that they are non-white people and celebrate the diversity of the subcontinent, be it women who are Tamil, Indo-Aryan, Sino-Tibetan, or African.

White women may be envied because of their fair complexions

1) White women aren't the only ones with "fair" complexions, there are Asians, Latinas, even black women with "fair skin"
2) "Fair" in India does NOT mean pasty, freckled with pink undertones. That is not considered attractive. Fair means tan, even toned, smooth, blemish free skin. I would think MANY women want that, not just Indian women.

The practice of using Eastern European women for such photo spreads is quite common and not unheard of.

I've only heard of one: Yana Gupta, but it was made very clear that she was NOT indian.

'm Afghan, a non-Desi South Asian

Afghanistan is in the middle east. Nice try.

Some Afghan women have made their debuts in Bollywood

Oh really? Name a few!

Oh really? Name a few!

There are quite a few: Celina Jaitley (is half Afghani), Madbubala (a Pathan from Peshawar), and many earlier actresses had Pathan heritage from British India days

A large number of movie extras (backup dancers), and even lesser known models (not as well known as Yanna Gupta) are East European.

Part of Afghanistan is very similar to India/ Pakistan, and part of Afghanistan is very similar to Iran and other Central Asian countries.

Celina Jaitley is HALF Afghani, half Indian. She grew up in India and identifies herself as Indian. Besides, genetically, Afghans and Indians aren't too different.

and Pathans are people who live in Pakistan. Most Pakistanis have roots in India and not Central Asia.

Part of Afghanistan is very similar to India/ Pakistan

Why did you group India and Pakistan together? Those two countries are distinguished by very different cultures.

Celina Jaitley is HALF Afghani, half Indian

it is about time that Desis celebrate that they are non-white people and celebrate the diversity of the subcontinent, be it women who are

By non-white people, you mean darker skin tones? B/c you do realize among Middle Easterners, South Asians, whether Pashtun or Mallu, there are darker complexions and lighter complexions within a family. Have you checked out Vogue India, and know who the top models of India are?....yes, Indians and other South Asians like THEIR fair skin, but there is some diversity in beauty...among our top models are Lakshmi Menon and Tinu Verghese, both Mallu and both dark and of course the beautiful desi women who are light skin. I have the Oct issue of Vogue India with me, Tinu and Lakshmi both have spreads and Tinu. Lakshmi Menon in Vogue had a cover in a bikini showing her dark-skinned hue looking beautiful.

It's a little more complex than desis at least Indians always celebrating their light-skinned fellows amongst them (and big-eyed fellows, as there doesn't seem to be much celebration of the east asian looking Indian either).

As for many of our successful businessmen, politicians, writers, corp heads, scientists they come in all the DESI colors - light and dark. Indians are not separate races, but rather a population that has a diversity of skin tones. This may seem strange to a Westerner, whose history is marked by light skin and dark skin populations that have no contact, but that same template cannot apply to Indians, where you have dark, dark skin for a brother and very light skin for that sister w/o a random outside population causing the difference in skin color.

I've only heard of one: Yana Gupta, but it was made very clear that she was NOT indian.

early in Indian cinema, often the only women available for films, as it was considered a low-class occupation, were apparently Indians with roots outside of India. As most Indian women, whether muslim or Hindu or what not were available.

That of course has changed and now desis whether Tamil or Gujju or half-Afghani Celina, are willing and available to act in desi films and so the stars have been varied parts of India. They have all been lighter skinned beauties from the India, unfortunately, the darker skinned sisters are not as celebrated in bollywood, nor are manly features with large noses, as is common in parts of South Asia, including Afghanistan, nor are east asian looking features of some Indians - and I do hope that changes, as I do hope the larger size women in America get more celebration and women w/o rhinos and boob-jobs, and fake hair, whether weaves and creamy-crack treated hair in African descent women or unnatural blondes, in the west get celebrated more.

Jenna,

Afghanistan is in the middle east. Nice try.

India and Pakistan are cultural cousins. The cradle of Indian civilization is in Pakistan! Their cultures are similar. Even if Pakistanis have largely abandoned wearing the sari, the "mother of the nation" Fatima Jinnah was fond of saris.

You make a false claim when you say Pushtuns live in Pakistan. The majority do, but Pushtuns are the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan. Pushtuns like other peoples currently have a diaspora.

South Asia and what countries are included and which ones are excluded is not definitive or agreed upon.

40 million Pushtuns live around the world, with the majority in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Pushtuns represent the majority ethnic group in Afghanistan yet 28 million (the largest segment) live in Pakistan.

Pakistan is a frontier nation, where Indo-Iranian peoples like Baloch and Pushtun people live side-by-side with Desis be they Kashmiri, Punjabi, and Sindhi. Pakistan is home to some of Afghanistan.

The UN considers "South Asia" to include Iran and Burma.

At my alma mater UCLA, South Asian studies includes the Autonomous Region of Tibet in the People's Republic of China.

Some consider Afghanistan to be South Asia.

Many Afghans have immigrated to India and Pakistan, we wear Shalwar Kameez, some Mughlai dishes originated from Afghanistan like "naan kabuli," during the time of the British raj, one maharaja was of Afghan ancestry, during the 18th century, Afghans would raid the Punjab periodically from their fellow Muslim neighbors, at the height of the Durani Afghan empire, Afghan military power governed Gujarat, Sindh, Indian and Pakistani Punjab, and Indian and Pakistani Kashmir.

Jenna,

You're why I hate sometimes can't stand other South Asians. My family is from Kabul, ethnic Pushtun/Persian/Kurdish. Due to war and social dislocation, some of my family fled to the "subcontinent proper" since you say Afghanistan is the Middle East. Most of my family resettled in Karachi and some went to Maharashtra/Gujarat.

For my fellow Muslims, they feel left out by chauvinist Desis. Even my Christian Desi friends are questioned about their authenticity. It seems if you are not a Sikh or Hindu your South Asian-ness is questioned

I'm questioned because I'm Afghan, people look at my "buttery" (smooth, unblemished, fair skin) and then they are puzzled when they see my sister, her skin color is similar to a light mocha complexion, but perfectly unblemished.

My mother looks like Rekha but is a natural dirty blonde, while my grandfather is so dark his skin color has a cinnamon-like red hue similar to many South Indians.

Skin color variation in my family is apparent.

My other sister raised in Karachi went to Mumbai to do commercial print model and do some back-up dancing. She found it easier to get employment than indigenous Indian women who were the wrong color or had the wrong facial features. My sister ended up marrying a Hakka Chinese Indian from West Bengal and now resides there with her half Pushtun and Chinese kids.

So Jenna, be a little bit more open-minded.

If Pakistan wasn't a part of Bharat, why would members of Hindutva not consider Mohandas Gandhi as a traitor to Hinduism?

Jenna,

In Bollywood's "Muslim social" films like the various remakes of Umrao Jaan, based on a Urdu novel to an intended audience of elite Muslim women, the language used in these films and in the songs is clearly Urdu, not Hindi.

Though Hindi and Urdu are both Sanskrit-based languages derived from a common language, the Urdu of modern Pakistan has intentionally added more Perso-Arabic loan words to make the language distinct from India's modern Hindi.

Pakistan has been obsessed with trying to make their culture as distinct from India as possible. However, at the end of the day, both nations are like a dysfunctional couple, you haven't learned the art of getting along.

Celina Jeitley was born in Kabul, Afghanistan.

Her mother Meeta is an Afghan Hindu and former Afghan beauty queen.

An estimated 500,000 Indians immigrated to Afghanistan since the 19th century. The Hindu and Sikh community in Afghanistan, though brutally suppressed under the Taliban, has survived.

They were the only Afghans allowed to use music in their worship services.

They were more tolerated than Shia Muslims who comprise about 20% of the country's Muslims.

Gustavo-- I agree with you that on one hand there is this strange coveting of women with fair skin in South Asia-- many of their advertising schemes use foreigners or Indians that look as fair as possible. But with this stereotype of fair= more beautiful (completely absurd, in my opinion, but of course, so is tanning) also comes something else. This something else can be far more troublesome for a gori coming from the west...

While on one hand the fair skin is seen as beautiful, there are further stereotypes about the western 'gori'... beautiful but SEXUAL, beautiful and available... beautiful and lacking South Asian Morals.... or to put most bluntly... beautiful and willing to have sex with anyone.

Of course, not *everyone* in South Asia can possible believe this, but enough can that while living in India there were quite a few scary (and also many slightly annoying but comical) situations.

That's why I offered up the suggestion, that perhaps gori women from the west may in some cases, overact by dressing EXTRA-SUPER conservative, to counteract these stereotypes.

You may not realize this, but most gori brides of South Asians have to deal with a lot discrimination from some members of the South Asian community

I bellieve it; I am dating someone who is white and although accepted now, my parents initially would much rather me be with an Indian Hindu, caste no bar (lol though at one time this mattered, and as I'm of a "lower" caste, plenty of desis Hindus who are caste conscious I'm sure wouldn't want to marry me) whether light or dark - that didn't matter, more his education and the fact that he was Indian and Hindu. No one would want me to marry a Muslim, whether light or dark-skinned - I don't think it's out of religious animosity, maybe some negative stereotyes of Muslim culture and apparent backwardness - but a strong feeling that the two religions do not work well together, and someone from his family would want me to convert. Unlike many East Asians I know, most Indians do not want their children to marrying "goris", despite much opportunity - and my current partner felt alienated b/c of that, but he also felt alienated b/c he wasn't a dr or successful businessman - that can have a lot to do with things as well. I wish you and your partner well, and if you guys show you're committed hopefully things will get better.

PS: "This may seem strange to a Westerner, whose history is marked by light skin and dark skin populations that have no contact, but that same template cannot apply to Indians, where you have dark, dark skin for a brother and very light skin for that sister w/o a random outside population causing the difference in skin color."

PS, Let's not overgeneralize other parts of the world! You're saying that I, with olive skin tones, brown eyes and almost black hair do not vary from, say someone from Ireland with red hair, pale, pinkish skin and blue eyes? I just say, take us out in the sun for an hour, and you will see how skin tones of the west are quite varied. ;)

Europe has quite a history of contact with people of other populations-- The Mediterranean Sea is quite small, you know.

Even though my family lives in South Asia, we are not considered South Asian according to Jenna. I love how she defines for me what I am. Most Afghans I know would never call themselves Middle Eastern.

But other things aside, if you are Muslim or Christian, you are sometimes not considered an authentic South Asian.

It seems that an authentic South Asian would be only a Sikh or Hindu. An authentic South Asian is only Indian, even though Pakistan and Afghanistan are mentioned in many of the ancient Hindu epics.

The Swat Valley in Pakistan, recently taken over by the Taliban, was one of the legendary early Buddhist kingdoms when Jainism and Buddhism ascended temporarily in South Asia.

This debate about authenticity is troubling. I'm certainly a minority in South Asia, but even in America, I don't pass the "brown skin color litmus test."

PS "I wish you and your partner well, and if you guys show you're committed hopefully things will get better."

Thank you. For me, my partner's family was at first reluctant (I was called a "friend" for quite a long time.. ahem) but now his family keeps asking him when He and I are getting married (which we plan on doing in a couple of years).. I talk to his family regularly on the phone (In my horrible American-accented Hindi, they don't speak English) and his mom is a very big advocate of me, insisting that I am a very nice girl (I was very shy when I meet them, which seems to work much better in India than in the U.S, haha) . His dad is a bit worried because of the whole Americans get divorced a lot business.

So it has taken a while for the family to warm up, but they have and (hopefully) will continue to... I just need to keep practicing my Hindi so I can speak to them more easily.

I actually have been lucky that his family does not hold many of the stereotypes about western women, most of those situations happened during other situations, generally when I was just traveling in public or hanging out with friends. But in many places in India, I do choose to dress extra-conservatively, in hopes that this will keep such behaviors and attitudes from being expressed to me on the streets... not sure if the change in dress really has an impact on others' behavior though.

No one would want me to marry a Muslim, whether light or dark-skinned - I don't think it's out of religious animosity, maybe some negative stereotyes of Muslim culture and apparent backwardness

South Asian Muslims disparage Hindus because of the following customs we deem backwards:

-Female infanticide (though misogyny is an issue in some South Asian Muslim households)

-Child brides (this practice is prevalent among poorer South Asian Muslims)

-Marrying a dog or other animal for some religious reason

-Caste system (Muslims have their own version of the Brahmin caste, those are people whose name is Syed-they claim to be descendants of the Prophet Muhammad)

I can see why there is Muslim animosity among Hindus and Sikhs (they were expelled from the homes in Pakistan), but still, all the religious communities in South Asia have their problems.

PS, Let's not overgeneralize other parts of the world! You're saying that I, with olive skin tones, brown eyes and almost black hair do not vary from, say someone from Ireland with red hair, pale, pinkish skin and blue eyes?

LOL, yes let's not generalize. All Irish are not red haired, and many, many have very black hair. It was strange for me to see people with such light skin have such black hair, that I thought at once that they died their hair black, but when talking with friends they said no, their hair is natural.

You're right though, there are of course variations in shades, among "white" european descent people, but in recent Western history, that hasn't been the main point of delineation, b/c I assume, those shades of whiteness are not, when looking at people, that stark.

I'm aware of stereotypes of negative sayings toward certain groups of europeans taht seemed more dark, but there wasn't an institutionalized barriers to say an Italian or a red-haired, light-skinned Irishman - in US history, both groups, whatever average skin tones their population's had, were both initially treated with contempt by some Anglo Americans. I'm aware that the stereotype of Jews in Europe, was that they had a darker skin tone, or they had larger, protruding noses that were not considered attractive - but many Jews do not share these characteristics and it was just stereotypes. But there was a stark physical difference that all Europeans saw with Africans, Indians (particularly the ones who were dark skinned), or East Asians and in US history that "race" difference is more to do with skin color b/c of black Americans and white Americans coming into contact with each other.

South Asian Muslims disparage Hindus because of the following customs we deem backwards

Yes, those reasons such as "marrying a dog" are not common and there are always outliers of a religion and considered barbaric among fellow Hindus :). I am sure most Muslims do not condone running over their daughter with a car, as a correct interprection of their religion, no? Or perhpas, raping women within a marriage is alllright - I'm sure those practices though can be pointed out are practiced by individuals that may be Muslim or Hindu, or whatever, are deemed barbaric by their fellow religious compatriots and not actually part of their religion, no?

Those same reasons that you suggest for the perceived "backwardness" of Hindus are very similar to the backward characteristics given to Muslims. I'm from Kerala, where female infancticide is virtually nonexistent, and there is a stereotype (and sometimes statistically supported) that Muslims treat their women pretty bad and most are not given educational opportunities, even though the govt supports them to have those opportunities, that Muslim women have very little rights. The issue of child brides, coverage, marrying many wives are all stereotyped toward Muslims and Muslim practices - the Taliban and their disgusting attitudes toward women and the Saudi cultural practices toward women, are all seen as a backwardness that is ingrained in Muslim religion.

I'm not Islamic expert, but like Hindus, there will always be Muslims who interpret their religion to treat women badly and Hindus who interpret their religion to treat women badly.

However, most HIndus I know, (and these folks are educated and have a higher socioeconomic background), feel that whereas within their Hindu or pluaralistic Indian background, women's status and caste issues can change, b/c of the type of govt and cutlure that was created in a Hindu dominated country, they do not view Islam as opening doors for minorities (and please about the caste system - there is so much tribal and racial delineations among different Muslim groups, which has led to ongoing wars, slaughering and slavery in many Muslim countries between Muslim groups) as there isn't one govt created by a Muslim dominated country that has much push for respect for women or minorities whether fellow Muslims or not. Hence a stereotype of backwardness and disdain that conintues to this day among many Hindus of my parents generation.

well, it is different if it is your heritage rather than Julie-next-door-wears-stirrup-pants-so-iwanna-too.

So then what's the cut-off year when a fashion trend becomes or ceases to become a "heritage"?

So then what's the cut-off year when a fashion trend becomes or ceases to become a "heritage"?

Oh, I dunno, a hundred years sounds pretty reasonable? ;)

And I mean 100 years of keeping something up, not something that people wore a 100 years ago and no longer wear, for the record... :)

PS--- a respond to you about skin tones and Europe is coming-- it is stuck in the cogs of sepiamutiny for approval because I linked to a photograph or two... ho hum. eventually it will pop up, I hope.

they do not view Islam as opening doors for minorities (and please about the caste system - there is so much tribal and racial delineations among different Muslim groups, which has led to ongoing wars, slaughering and slavery in many Muslim countries between Muslim groups) as there isn't one govt created by a Muslim dominated country that has much push for respect for women or minorities whether fellow Muslims or not.

Malaysia and Indonesia are countries that have enshrined pluralism and strive to create national cohesion despite ethnic differences and animosities that may exist between different communities. Malaysia proudly boast about its multifaceted heritage, even though Malays do receive preferential treatment in some social arenas.

India has been witness to sectarian violence by Hindus against both Christians and Muslims.

I think Indians disparage Islam for historical reasons. Since the 7th century, Muslims have continuously invaded the subcontinent be they Arabs, Afghans, Turks, etc.

Indians disparage Islam because of partition.

Indians disparage Islam because Muslims are seen as "foreigners" yet most Desi Muslims are converts to the Islamic faith from Hinduism.

Historically, not all Muslim sovereigns in Indian history were tolerant of the Hindu majority, and this is also a reason for the hatred.

Kerala is an exception to India.

Iranian women outnumber Iranian men on colleges and universities in Iran. The gender gap is evident, for every 2 male college students in Iran there is 3 female college students. There are more women serving in Iran's parliament than serving in the US Congress proportionally.

Your experience with educated Hindus, sadly is not the vast majority of Hindus just like my associations with educated Muslims do not represent the majority.

Both the Muslim community globally and Hindus face many similar conditions such as poverty, lack of opportunities, and social restraints.

India is by my estimation a greater success than Pakistan on many fronts. But this may not be due to Islam.

Islam is not monolithic.

Islam is like Christianity, fractured and divided among various denominations.

Islam varies from group to group. The Ismailis of Gujarat are very open-minded and they fund various charitable works in Central Asia and Africa in particular to non-Desis.

Whereas Hinduism is a tribal faith, not open to those not born in the faith, Islam is a universal faith that has addressed social ills. However, Muslims fall prey to their cultural shortcomings, and this is what has happened in Afghanistan.

Islamic culture gave India much, modern Hindu culture has been influenced by Islamic contributions to India and vice versa.

PS,

Notice that I highlighted the contradictions that exist in my community towards anti-Hindu biases.

Unfortunately, for your relative open-mindedness, you fall prey to your grandparents' biases and prejudices against Muslims.

Realize, even in South Asia, not all Muslims can be easily stereotyped and classified.

PS: "LOL, yes let's not generalize. All Irish are not red haired, and many, many have very black hair."

well, er I didn't mean that everyone Irish person did, I was just taking an example of one person and me... I could have said a blonde blue-eyed person, very pale-skinned person from Sweden (not all of them are blonde or blue-eyed) my point was just that they are variations in skin tones in Europe... sorry for the confusion in my wording.

My tone, etc are from the Croatian side of my family, (who mixed with Turks back in time too) so (though I am not as dark as I was when I was a kid) growing up in an almost completely white town in extremely white Maine-- skin tones and variations among white people where pretty clear to me. And I used Irish as an example because quite a lot of the people in Maine boast Irish or French ancestry (I have neither) so it was the first thing that came to mind...

I think some of the differences are pretty stark... for example, if you put me on a beach, I usually will get a sun burn after being outside for say, 8 hours (generally I just tan), whereas my friend of Irish descent (a specific person I know) will burn in like 2 hours. When you put my arm next to hers, our skin tones are quite visibly different.

Here I am on the far right: www dot flickr dot com/photos/reluktantwarrior/416711184/ or another www dot flickr dotcom/photos/reluktantwarrior/317974182/in/set-977455/ again I am far right, my sister is behind me.

Anyways, I hope that clarifies what I meant, did not intend to generalize the Irish or any other group....

Malaysia and Indonesia are countries that have enshrined pluralism and strive to create national cohesion despite ethnic differences and animosities that may exist between different communities. Malaysia proudly boast about its multifaceted heritage, even though Malays do receive preferential treatment in some social arenas.

Umm no, I don't see Malyasia as any shining example that comes close to India's constitution. Their laws actively discriminate against nonMalays and reverse affirmative action has happened there. I don't know too much about Indonesia.

India has been witness to sectarian violence by Hindus against both Christians and Muslims.

Umm, yeah and Hindus have been subjected to violence by Muslims and the Christian issue has been discussed (as well as the muslim - hindu violence) quite often on this blog, by folks who have a much better grasp of history...I can lead you to those discussions, though they eventually closed I believed, b/c it just wasn't moving forward.

I noticed when you talked about the violence Gujarati Muslims suffered by Hindus, you didn't mention what started it (well I'm sure it's much more complex than one incident) - before some Hindus unleashed violence against some Muslims, some Muslims burned a train filled with Hindus, including women and children, they died a horrible death. Read up on it. The violence was horrible on both sides but please state the full story.

Indians disparage Islam because of partition. ? Take your own advice. Don't say "indians" say "sme indians"; some indians disparage Islam; some Indians don't; some Indians who are Muslim disparage Hinduism; some Indians don't.

Indians disparage Islam because Muslims are seen as "foreigners" yet most Desi Muslims are converts to the Islamic faith from Hinduism. I don't know. Perhpas some Indians think like this. But I must say a Muslim Indians have rights that no Afghani Hindu/Christian/Buddhist do and I hope India continues in that trajectory.

Historically, not all Muslim sovereigns in Indian history were tolerant of the Hindu majority, and this is also a reason for the hatred.
Yes, I definitely think this may go along with the idea that SOME hindus disparage Islam - they don't see it, as it was practiced for centuries, with openmindedness and equality in mind (not that Hindus didn't have their own inequality etc) and many sovereigns practiced the notion that either you convert or you die by the sword. Whereas this was seen in Christianity at some time, there is much that has changed in this interpretation of the religion - primarily I think b/c of the separation of church and state. Whereas again, unfortunately I don't see this in Islamic majority countries.

I don't disparage Islam. I've retold what many Hindus, educated feel toward Muslims, that I know. I understand there's plenty of misogyny to go around among Hindus and Muslims and different areas of a vastly diverse subcontinent, practice and interpret their religion many different ways. I can't speak for the dog marrying apparent "hindu" or the Muslim who might practice honor killing. But if you are going to bring a practice of Hinduism, it's silly to bring up something that is not in any way considered a "practice" and considered crazy by most other Hindus. What do many Afghanis say about honor killings or not allowing women to work? I expect there's a diversity of views.

But like I said I don't disparage Islam. I do state facts; I do not want to EVER live in a country that has married religion with its state govt - In every Muslim country this is the case, and as expected there are rights and cultural practices that are enshrined in the law that degrade and oppress other minorities and women. I don't think a country that's a theocracy can be any example of trying to achieve equality. Maybe it's my Indian or Western upbrining that makes me think that :). When I'm in Kerala, I like waking up to the call to prayer that I hear from the mosque. I love visiting parts of India and seeing on the skyline mosques, temples, and gurudwaras. Thank goodness that is possible, even in a thrid world country, that did not have the luck of having oil, that was able to be exploited b/c Westerners invented the car.

I just wanted to bring it back to the issue in the article -- nose piercings. I don't know what the girl's actual motivations were (a sense of heritage, or a sense of style, or whatever), but I do think misrepresenting the nose piercing as religious is a stretch. A more interesting question is about "default" culture and what the school believes is acceptable, and from what framework. Why not allow Maori tattoos, or "subculture" styles? I err strongly on the individual expression side, but it's unfortunate that the dress code is formulated in a way that either makes kids rely on cultural relativism arguments, or forgo something they feel is important to their own expression of self/identity. There are a lot of appropriate places to draw the line on dress codes, and perhaps the school does not want to open a free-for-all on arbitrating facial piercings. Perhaps this is also a difference in regional culture -- from California, piercings seem ubiquitous and non-threatening, but in Utah or on Wall Street this is still countercultural to a very specific, straight-laced, kind of WASPy view of how we present ourselves.

unfortunately I don't see this in Islamic majority countries.

The separation of mosque and state is apparent in Turkey, but Turkey replaced religious chauvinism with ethnic chauvinism.

Just this week, Turkey has now eased restrictions on the Kurdish minority.

Some people will wonder what this has to do with nose-piercing as an expression of "culture."

I received a secular education, but for a time attended Christian parochial schools. The sedative that allows America to thrive despite potential for sectarian violence is historical amnesia, relative wealth, and opportunity.

The shortcomings in the Muslim world have little to do with Islam. They have a lot to do with human error and flaw.

Again, you paint Islam in a box, for someone being from Kerala where a third of the population is Muslim, where Muslim women there have higher literacy rates than most other South Asian Muslim women, I would expect you to be more tolerant.

But again, I'm an "Afghan foreigner" who is not an unauthentic South Asian as alleged by other posters to this article.

Even though the Chinese are not given preferential treatment de jure, they thrive economically in Malaysia.

The shortcomings in Afghanistan have nothing to do with Islam. Muslim minorities like the Shia and Ahmadi have been persecuted by the Sunni majority for their differences in theology, religious practice, etc.

To PS and Jenna,

You expose why South Asians in America may never be a truly unified front or political force. We are a collection of communities, with each group excluding and including who they deem worthy to associate with.

PS,

I am critical of Pakistan, but I understand that Pakistan's unique history has less to do with Islam and more to do with communalism which plagues the subcontinent as a whole.

Therefore, in my criticisms of Pakistan, I do not assign blame to that nation's woes to Islam. I assign them to secular nationalism, nepotism, Punjabi chauvinism, lack of accountability, lack of meritocracy, and a general lack of investment in all Pakistanis.

This site is pretty cool, I heard about it on progressive Muslim circles. However, I see that even "liberals" can be blinded by their own prejudice.

Again, you paint Islam in a box, for someone being from Kerala where a third of the population is Muslim, where Muslim women there have higher literacy rates than most other South Asian Muslim women, I would expect you to be more tolerant.

dude how have I painted islam in a box?

But again, I'm an "Afghan foreigner" who is not an unauthentic South Asian as alleged by other posters to this article. I didn't say this and I'm not sure Jenna said this. I consider Afghanistan part of S. Asia. Not a big deal to me.

Even though the Chinese are not given preferential treatment de jure, they thrive economically in Malaysia. They have a capital that many South Asians did not who were often brought there as indentured servants. There are tons of Indians who are despite, these factors a part of the extremely wealthy in Malaysia; It's unfortunate that the minorities such as Indians were doing so well in their exams that the Malay govt started giving quotas for spaces in their universities and restricting Indians. It's very nice that minorities, who do not have the same rights as their fellow Malaysians, and some come from a much more disadvantaged history, have done well, but so what? LIke I said, Malaysia is not in any way a good example of pluralistic society.

The shortcomings in Afghanistan have nothing to do with Islam.
I think some of India's shortcomings that the country is trying to straighten out comes from an interpretation of Hinduism, that was destructive to the society. Once the caste system might have made sense, nor was it stringent. But then it became a tool of exploiting groups of people, and keep large masses away from literacy and empowerment. The country is coming to terms with the flaws that come from some people's perverted views of a religion. I feel the same way about many Muslim countries and I believe that the one way to help prevent the perversion of religious practices seeping into who has civil rights, is exactly keeping those rights civil and away from religion. So there needs to be a separation of church and state, which is not practiced by a Muslim majority country. So maybe this is due to a cultural feelings of insecurity that come from the Muslim world. I don't know. Why does this observation mean that this means I'm putting Islam in a box. I know Muslims who embrace seapartion of church and state and still consider themselves practicing Muslims. Unfortunately that view does not seem to dominate the ideas that go behind creating a country in the "muslim world". I don't know where those Muslims are when these govts and states are being created.

Punjabi chauvinism

as opposed to Islamic chauvinism? Yeah, you're right open minded. S. Asians are a fairly new minority and I do believe we have built political clout in such short time. I don't see our ability to break into different groups so different from the first wave of european immigrants and/or jewish immigrants. Plus since some parts of South Asian society has starkly different socioeconomic levels there is also bound to be differences in political viewpoints.

PS,

I call a truce. I was insulted when I read your original comment about not marrying a Muslim.

I was even insulted when I heard this sentiment expressed in the movie Bend It Like Beckham where the main character's Sikh mother makes a casual anti-Muslim comment.

But I'm rather lax in my beliefs. I eat pork, drink alcohol on occasion, and well I'm gay. I'm far from being insecure, I feel secularism is key for advancement in the Muslim world.

The insecurity you cite among Muslims often leads to rigidity in the interpretation of their faith. This is often imposed on women either willingly or not.

Punjabi chauvinism

as opposed to Islamic chauvinism? Yeah, you're right open minded.

In Pakistan, Punjabis have been the privileged ethnic group similar to Malays in Malaysia.

This is one of the reasons why Bangladesh broke away from Pakistan, because Bengalis were not given their rights despite their numbers.

PS,

Essentially your arguments hover around Indian exceptionalism, similar to how Americans state this is the "best country on Earth."

On some indicators, the US is not always on top.

You try to imply that I am an Islamic chauvinist, how so?

I am willing to admit shortcomings in my community.

The South Asian community is not entirely new. Sikhs have lived in California for over a century, especially in the Central Valley and some of the earliest Asian Americans came from the subcontinent during the Revolutionary period.

The "brain drain" which has brought well-educated and well-to-do South Asians since 1965 to this country is not truly reflective of the populations left behind. Most Indians immigrating to America from the northern part of the country, while in Malaysia, that immigration comes from the South. But as for the question of being a "bami putra" (son of the soil) in Malaysia, Indian Muslims were able to magically become "Malay" which was the case for Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad , former prime minister of Malaysia, was the son of an Indian Muslim with roots from the state of Kerala. Therefore, the longest-serving prime minister of Malaysia is half ethnic Malayali.

My family is a well-to-do Afghan family, we are not similar to more recent refugees who came to this country post-1996.

I do not see South Asians as a major force politically in this country. Pre-9/11, the Muslim community in America was pretty insular among the immigrants, many of whom come from Pakistan, India, or Bangladesh. Even today, people still self-segregate though Muslim activists be they extreme or moderate in their views, try to break down these barriers.

So then what's the cut-off year when a fashion trend becomes or ceases to become a "heritage"?

Oh, I dunno, a hundred years sounds pretty reasonable? ;)

Totally arbitrary. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The chick wants special treatment just for being Desi.

Whatever happened to equal rights for all?

Totally arbitrary. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The chick wants special treatment just for being Desi.

Whatever happened to equal rights for all?

This reminds of the Desi Muslim from the UK, who attended a Muslim school and objected to the shalwar kameez, stating it was not "modest" enough and opted to wear an Arab abaya.

From my experience with grad school, working with nonprofits, etc, I always see Afghanistan counted as part of South Asia....

Gustavo, you need to calm down. You are just creating problems where there are none. No one is attacking Islam or its practices. All I said was, Afghanistan is in the Middle East, therefore you are middle eastern. Claiming South Asian identity does not make you South Asian. And another thing, the UN seems very misinformed (just look at their lack of organization and execution in the Middle East, not knowing where it is might contribute to it.).

But I agree with you on one thing, South Asia will never be unified. It consists of many cultures, religons, languages etc etc. Just like America will never be unified (ie Dems vs Reps) or most countries/ regions.

LinZi

there are further stereotypes about the western 'gori'... beautiful but SEXUAL,

"Again, you paint Islam in a box"

This, to me, appears to be an extremely hypocritical comment. In an earlier post, you criticized Hinduism for the practices of child marriage and the marriage of dogs to humans. Do you really think those customs (and could you even call the latter of those two practices a custom? How many Hindus do you know who are married to dogs?) represent the values of Hinduism? I would really rather not engage in a religious argument, but your hypocrisy is compounded here by the fact that child marriage is prevalent in Muslim societies, besides the fact that Muhammad himself was married to a 9-year old. The BBC had an article a week or two ago about a 117-year old Somali man marrying a 17-year old girl. It is a problem that afflicts both Hindu and Muslim societies. And I don't think your point about humans being married to dogs even deserves a rebuttal. For every such isolated, ridiculous incident in India, there's probably something equivalent happening in a Muslim country. I believe the BBC (my primary news source :p) ran an article a while ago about a Sudanese Muslim man getting married to a goat. These rare incidents have nothing to do with religion. 

From my experience with grad school, working with nonprofits, etc, I always see Afghanistan counted as part of South Asia....

Maybe we aren't "brown" enough to be South Asian!?

When I was in the US Navy, people assumed I was "Italian" so I guess I could pass to be "white" if I so desired.

PS,

Realize, the majority of the world's Punjabis are Pakistani Muslims, not Indian Sikhs contrary to images we constantly see in Bollywood films.

Yes, there is an issue with extremism in Islam and among young men in particular. I am 29 years old, and I use to attend an all-male mosque affiliated with Tablighi Jamaat. Though they are largely apolitical, their views on Islam are a little rigid and I would consider them the "Jehovah's Witness" of the South Asian American community, once they know where you live, they will occasionally make home visitations.

Their "sermons" are longer than the typical Friday khutba.

and well I'm gay

Gustavo, why limit yourself to such a cramped Western construction as "gay"? Don't the Pashtuns have a storied history of classical-Greek-like man-boy love, but supplemented by marriage and a family? Keep the faith!

All I said was, Afghanistan is in the Middle East, therefore you are middle eastern. Claiming South Asian identity does not make you South Asian.

Actually it is not so simple. Depending on the organization, Afghanistan is considered part of South Asia in some organizations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia "South Asia typically consists of Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, the Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. Some definitions may also include Afghanistan, Burma, Tibet, the British Indian Ocean Territories and Iran."

Gustavo, why limit yourself to such a cramped Western construction as "gay"? Don't the Pashtuns have a storied history of classical-Greek-like man-boy love, but supplemented by marriage and a family? Keep the faith!

The sexual Puritanism of modern South Asia does an influence on me.

I live in the West, and personally I disagree with pederastry (intercourse with adolescent boys). In modern Afghan culture, homosexual sex is an act, not a lifestyle or community. But such practices were apparently widespread in Central Asia.

In Desi culture, you have the hijra (transsexual women), many of whom are devout Muslims and can be seen at many a Pakistani wedding or at a shrine to a deceased Sufi saint.

Considering I'm part Pushtun, and Pushtuns are Pakistan's second largest ethnic group after Punjabis, I would say Afghanistan certainly is South Asia. Middle Eastern, no, we are not. The Middle East ends with Iran.

Not sure how Pashtuns in places like Pakistan would be any more South Asian than those living in Afghanistan, just because they are living in one of the so called "core" South Asian countries. I don't think it is a biggie for Afghans to consider themselves South Asian if that is what they prefer. They are brown enough to be South Asian to me if that is how they feel comfortable in describing themselves.

The Middle East ends with Iran.

Actually for some organizations the Middle East ends with Iraq. Check that wiki link out.

I have encountered a number of Desi Muslims who have the most disparaging view concerning Hindus.

I guess, I find it funny that Afghans tend to be more tolerant of Hindus, since we have this affinity for Indian popular culture.

The laundry list was not reflective of my views. These are some of the common anti-Hindu remarks I've heard other Muslims make.

I even admitted to child marriage being an issue in the Muslim community.

I am secular Muslim, but one that is not some Republican conservative who is only concerned about my own welfare.

I am a "benign Islamist" who believes gender equity is a necessity to uplift Muslims. I disagree with the whole concept of Partition and the creation of Pakistan. Education must go beyond "blind imitation" of the example of the Prophet Muhammad. The Prophet Muhammad married Aisha while she was still a child, but such a marriage nowadays is socially inappropriate with increased longevity.

Child marriages may have served a purpose and had a rationale in traditional societies, but in today's reality, I consider them inappropriate.

According to many Hadith, the child bride Aisha and Muhammad had a loving relationship, one that went beyond merely lust and physical contact.

I'm not here to stand by while Sikhs and Hindus can make their casual anti-Muslim comments. I will point out hypocrisy in the South Asian community, even if people like or not, and that also includes my fellow Muslims.

I guess we've stopped talking about the nose ring in schools now....

I guess we've stopped talking about the nose ring in schools now....

Sameer,

I only wanted to defend myself and what I perceived as slights.

Personally, I'm an opinionated person.

People don't like what I have to say, fine.

Some Afghans including myself consider themselves South Asian.

Others, will say Central Asian.

Few will claim Middle Eastern though.

Afghans are considered Asian Americans according to the US Census Bureau, but when it came to racial classification, the overwhelming response was "non-Hispanic white."

Now my aunt Cima, considers South Asians as Middle Eastern!!!!!! She's half Iranian and half Afghan.

In America, the average Joe would consider an Indian as a "Middle Easterner."

When "Devdas" premiered at the Egyptian Theater in Hollywood, CA (a famous movie palace from Hollywood's Golden Era), my aunt who is six months younger than me, bought us tickets to see the movie followed by Q & A with the actress Madhuri Dixit, I guess my aunt had a run-in with her in the ladies' room.

My aunt alleges the Indian model-actress was giving her dirty looks.

How many Hindus do you know who are married to dogs?

now now... there's no need to call indian women ugly...

"White women are just seen as whores by lots of Indian men BUT what makes you think white women are considered beautiful in Indian culture? "

Don't spend to much time chilling with the dudes in India, huh?

The violence was horrible on both sides

typical modi apologia.

That was hilarious.

But as a gay guy, if I was living in India, I would probably go straight. I don't find South Asian men all that attractive, the women can be stunningly gorgeous, but the men "ashy" in appearance.

Another thing is hair. Too much coverage is well not my thing.

I guess, sad to admit, I like Latin and white guys mostly.

typical modi apologia.

The riots that occurred in Gujarat were beyond barbaric, lives were literally set on fire, a pregnant woman was killed with her child still in utero.

Hinduism is often portrayed by Western hippies as a non-violent alternative to the Abrahamic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

However, Hinduism has issues with gender, sexuality, and issues confronting modernity like Islam.

Islam is not monolithic, and neither is Hinduism.

India may be an emerging superpower, but one that has many social ills. Classism, caste prejudice, racism, communalism, tribalism, etc. plague this pluralistic country.

And caste prejudice is not confined to Hindus alone, many Desi Muslims also practice a form of caste prejudice on the basis of alleged "illustrious ancestry" or not.

I'm not excusing the act of terror in Mumbai a year ago.

But why as a Muslim, do I have to apologize for the random acts of terror that have plagued Pakistan, the US, and other locations since 9/11?

I have no control of these extremists, even if I was hold a press conference denouncing the violence, what good would that do?

I understand the "jihadist" mindset, and though I renounce this frame of mind, I have no control.

Even if Muslims instigated the ethnic cleansing that occurred in Gujarat, was one act of barbarism justified with another act of barbarism?

Personally, I am Muslim for cultural reasons.

I don't believe in Allah, Rama, or Jehovah. I think all religions are relics of the past. I won't go as far as Sir Salman Rushdie in his disparagement of organized faith.

Islam is a part of my culture. It has been for almost 14 centuries, it gives me identity, and facilitates a community.

When I pray in the masjid, it is to connect with other human beings, even those I may disagree with. It gives me humility and clarity.

Jenna ""Oh look, I'm marrying an Indian, but I face SOOO much discrimination and I don't deserve it because I'm a white woman which is weird because Indian men love white women and Indian women want to look like me POOR ME :( ""

I don't deserve to be discriminated against because I am a human being.

I love how some people just love to make this all "you're a white woman and obsessed with yourself" bullcrap. Please, as if 'eve teasing' doesn't happen all the time to Indian women in India as well. I never said Indian men love white women, but I did say Indian culture at present (not ALL individuals in India) have a preference towards fairness. I did not say this fairness necessarily means white people only. But from MY experiences, American white women are often viewed as desirable/sexual. Whether or not that is because they like fairness, or because they watch too much illegal porn on the internet (or Hollywood movies for that matter) , I don't know, but my point was just that such stereotypes can make things difficult for a minority living in another country (I'm sure no one here would be able to understand what it is like to be a minority in another country, right? I'm sure they NEVER felt stereotyped or had to complain about anyone's treatment of them, right?)

Please, half of the sepia mutiny posts are about the minority South Asian community in the U.S., trying to deal with issues and stereotypes they have to deal with on a daily basis in America. I don't go around telling them "oh poor you, stop crying... " I know what it is like and I know how frustrating it can be to have people judge you before meeting you and stereotype you into a box. (Like, you Jenna, and some others have done to me on Sepia Mutiny as well).

Too many people are too busy feeling upset and slighted by the 'white woman' that dares to make any comment about South Asia that they don't really seem to notice that we have more in common than we have to fight about. It's ridiculous. But, you know what, no I don't think 'poor me' as you wrongly assume. I share my comments to have an open debate. Why should I be less than truthful about my experiences in India? I like India, I lived there, and it is a part of who I am, take it or leave it. You can judge whether or not a 'white woman' has any right to live in or care about India, but I really don't care, because the people I care about most accept me, and I accept them as we are. We don't need to bother with silly stereotypes, because we have actually bothered to get to know each other.

Many of my comments end up being about me, because it seems I need to constantly attempt to prove to others here that I am "allowed" to have an opinion about anything related to South Asia. As if I would pop onto a blog about the U.S, and start questioning someone as to how many years they lived in the U.S. and whether or not they have the proper credentials or skin tone ot have an opinion. I end up talking about me because somehow any conversation I post on gets redirected back to the same issues-- gori this, who REALLY can participate in South Asian culture, what is discrimination, etc. Other people are bringing the conversation back to this not me, because I am constantly having to jump through hoops just to have my comment taken seriously in anyway.

Or perhaps I need to spend my days proving to everyone I am not pardesigori, since apparently it is difficult to tell white women apart-- even when we have entirely different viewpoints and opinions on everything. I am so sick and tired of all this, maybe if I start of every post of mine with a life history and a list of credentials, I won't have to go through this every time I make a comment on this post.

I enjoy this blog, and I enjoy engaging on issues regarding South Asia. But if people continue to cut out all non-South Asian origin commenters, I guess you can continue your cheery assault on assaults on South Asians in the west, and continue on merrily. I'm sorry if I am disturbing you will my viewpoints and experiences, I just thought that someone might actually be interested in hearing about experiences in India besides there own, and engaging in open debate on a variety of topics. Sorry, if I am mistaken.

There are so many people I know who are part of South Asian culture in someway, but since they were not born with brown skin they do not even feel comfortable sharing anything on this blog. I suppose you would be happy if I shut up and go on my way, like many other non-desi s who used to particiapte on this blog have. Or maybe it would just be easier for me to share my opinion or experiences on this blog if I call myself "ashwini" or "pooja" rather than my name.

Honestly, the reason I bring this stuff up is because I think a real dialogue needs to happen. But we can't seem to get past "you're white, I'm brown" and on to actually consider anything. It's the same on so many topics. Afghani,Shri Lankan, Pakistani, Indian- Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Jew, Jain, Buddhist, caste, class, city- village, brown white, videshi, desi, Hindi, Tamil, Urdu, Mayalam, Pashto, Bengali. Divisions, divisions, divisions. Isn't it time we try and leave our past frustrations, assumptions, and scorn behindand just talk about the issues? Aren't we all well educated people who think a lot and care about South Asia and America? Shouldn't the whole point of dialogue be to share and hear different viewpoints, to understand from different frames of mind, and to challenge ourselves past our current experiences?

Seems like a lot of my lessons here so far are "shut, up, you don't count, stop whining" Maybe if people stopped telling me I don't count, I wouldn't have to talk about it all the time, and could focus on nose rings.

Divisions, divisions, divisions. Isn't it time we try and leave our past frustrations, assumptions, and scorn behindand just talk about the issues? Aren't we all well educated people who think a lot and care about South Asia and America?

LinZi,

I actually like hearing your viewpoints.

The personal is politic, that was the slogan of the 1960s.

When I attended UCLA as a undergrad from 1998-2003 (I was a super senior), I noticed the lack of activism among the Desi/South Asian community. Few were involved in political issues, ironically, it was Muslim South Asians under the banner of pan-Muslim organizations that raised awareness.

To many South Asians, I was excluded and not viewed as "authentic." My friend Priti, who was a South Indian Christian, felt the isolation and she was Indian.

Even for Indian nationals studying at UCLA, one friend said it best, "These Indian Americans are confused Desis, to them Bharat is nothing more than the bhangra music or Bollywood film. What do they know? Their parents have sheltered them from the reality of South Asia."

I have heard many Desis say Indians overseas try to outdo Indians in India in terms of authenticity.

My principle interaction with South Asians has been in the Muslim setting of the mosque. I have never step foot in a Hindu temple or attended a puja.

Growing up in America, I noticed that even though South Asians would shop in the same venues, when it came to religious gatherings, the self-imposed segregation was evident.

There is no one common South Asian American scene.

In my community, the Afghan community, we are mostly poor compared to our North Indian counterparts who formed the "brain drain" of their country. I have more in common with the Bangladeshi, not simply because they are fellow Muslims but because they too economically as whole are more modest in means.

I have felt excluded and many other South Asians also.

But remain active, your comments are appreciated, at least by me.

The most hated white woman in India is Sonia Gandhi, because of her foreign origins, she had to step down as prime minister of India to appease the nativists.

I might get flake for this, but Muslim Desi youth seem more socially aware because the Islamic world is always in the news. 9/11 changed everything for the Desi Muslim community, they were suddenly exposed and introduced to the national stage, required to denounce terrorism as a perversion of Islam, and to reach out to people they otherwise would not have to do if 9/11 didn't occur.

The mosque I attend now has open houses designed for non-Muslims. Have Sikhs and Hindus did the same for their neighbors? Probably not! My imam will appear at local churches and synagogues, to discuss the common origins of Islam to the other Abrahamic faiths. My mosque has a strong South Asian flare, though the religious leaders are mostly from North Africa.

India doesn't figure prominently on front page news reports in the West, and when India is discussed, it is because of some worshipers getting trampled to death or how American jobs are being outsourced to India.

Jenna, I can attest to the fact that some Indians do in fact find pale skin with pink undertones to be "sundar".

And yes, many of them find the golden and olive "fair" tones sundar as well.

You'll even find, believe it or not, a Desi or two who actually likes dark chocolate.

Desis recognize beauty in all spectrums.

Sameer,

I only wanted to defend myself and what I perceived as slights.

I understand. That comment wasn't directed to you. I was reading through the comments and noticed how long and far everyone's strayed...

In America, the average Joe would consider an Indian as a "Middle Easterner."

Native American, South Asian, Middle Eastern - what's the difference :)

Jenna,

Most of my family lives in India and Pakistan now.

When I visit my family, I fly to Pakistan or India. My family is marrying native Pakistanis and Indians now. My younger sister married a Hakka Chinese from West Bengal.

And even if my family was still in Afghanistan, we have much in common with our Desi neighbors who live along the Indus river valley.

The most hated white woman in India is Sonia Gandhi, because of her foreign origins, she had to step down as prime minister of India to appease the nativists.

Uh, Manhohan Singh is sooooooooo much more qualified to be PM than Sonia Gandhi whose only qualification is that she married a Gandhi. He also stands out among other ethnic Indian politicians. I for one am glad others beside the Nehru-Gandhi family get to be PM. This is supposed to be a democracy not a monarchy.

Plus I guess I am used to the US system where the President, and the next two positions who can replace the President should anything happen, has to be born in the country. I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect the PM to at least be born India - either in larger pre-partition India, or smaller India post-partition.

" India's newest prime minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh, was born into a family of very modest means on September 26, 1932, in Gah, West Punjab (now Pakistan). After earning degrees in economics from Cambridge University in England and from Punjab University, he spent the next thirty years working as a quiet but very key player in Indian politics. In the 1980s Singh served as the head of the Reserve Bank of India, and in 1991 he became the country's finance minister in the Congress Party-led government of Narasimha Rao (1921–), which was in power until 1996.

When he took the post, India was in disastrous financial straits, but during his tenure Singh became the mastermind behind the country's economic reform movement. He opened up the country to outside investors for the first time, and ended regulations that had kept India tied to the past. For example, Singh dissolved the "license Raj," which required private businesses to seek government approval before making almost any decision. By the end of the 1990s, with Singh's help, India was well on its way to economic recovery.

Perhaps more remarkable, however, was that throughout the decades of scandal that rocked the Indian government, Singh retained an incredibly "squeaky clean" reputation. In fact, in 2002 he was awarded the Outstanding Parliamentarian Award. And in May of 2004, when it was announced that he would be taking on the post of prime minister, Singh was given support across the board from representatives of the various Indian parties."

Read more: http://www.notablebiographies.com/news/Ca-Ge/Gandhi-Sonia.html#ixzz0Wyh5aROk

Gustavo, I had to leave and just came back ---

I call a truce. I was insulted when I read your original comment about not marrying a Muslim.

don't be insulted by that. I'm just saying what are known attitudes among different south asian groups. My family doesn't believe that Muslims shouldn't have the same civil and human rights, but culturally many of them have their biases and yes, sometimes prejudices. And I'm sure the same can be said about what some people may say about us. Anyways, - every day there's a skin color debate saying how unattractive dark-skinned Indian girls, like I am darkskinned Indian girl, are deemed, and I just separate that talk with my personal experiences and the knowledge that its some people who are like that. I'm not at all offended by that, I just understand its a discussion about attitudes. So I haven't read what else you've written but truce for now :)

Gustavo, thanks for your comment.

I don't doubt that there are a great number of people who have had similar experiences, whatever their background, on this blog and within communities all over.

And I don't think your point about humans being married to dogs even deserves a rebuttal. For every such isolated, ridiculous incident in India, there's probably something equivalent happening in a Muslim country. I believe the BBC (my primary news source :p) ran an article a while ago about a Sudanese Muslim man getting married to a goat. These rare incidents have nothing to do with religion.

Thank you, well said!

Dear Pogrom, all I have to say about this, - typical modi apologia. is your funny in a totally unintentional way :)

The most hated white woman in India is Sonia Gandhi, because of her foreign origins, she had to step down as prime minister of India to appease the nativists.

Only on Sepia Mutiny, you see such amazing fiction.

Sonia Gandhi was never the Prime Minister of India, not even for 15 minutes.

Yet, she is perhaps, the most powerful politician in India today, she made Congress party one of the most surprising comeback in 2004, every decision in India by the present Government has to have her onboard, she pulls crowds like no one else can, she makes her chamchas (sycophants) and others in the party win elections. The reason she not choose to become PM are very complex, and they were solely driven by her own (most importantly, her being PM would have jeopardized the future of Gandhi family, Rahul Gandhi in particularly).

Maybe, a little reading would help.

LInzi, I enjoy reading your comments and I agree and disagree with some of them. Hope you continue stating what you think.

Gustavo, I'm afraid you're losing it and The riots that occurred in Gujarat were beyond barbaric, lives were literally set on fire, a pregnant woman was killed with her child still in utero.

Your right, and likewise it was beyond barbaric before the riots began that innocent women, men and children were burned alive on a train. Let's not forget that barbarism. You're from Afghanistan - shall we talk about the continous barbarism that any Hindu, or particular ethnic, tribal group have had to live under.... All of it is barbaric and one step in the right direction is living under state that gives equal rights to all religions. Otherwise another barbaric thing will happen, there will be genocide of said populations as there have been for centuries in muslim controlled regions, so that there are very few Hindus living peaceful lives in Bangladesh or Pakistan or Afghanistan.

If she was born Edvige Antonia Albina Maino how did she end up with a name Sonia? (referring to the link Kush Tandon gave)

Sonia Gandhi reminds me of Sarah Palin. Not the brightest bulb, but definitely a cult of personality and can draw the crowds. Except of course Sarah Palin has an undergraduate degree, even if she went through 5 colleges to get one, unlike Sonia Gandhi who has none.

If she was born Edvige Antonia Albina Maino how did she end up with a name Sonia?

Sonia was a name gifted to her by her Indian in-laws. Sonia means "golden" or "beautiful".

and one step in the right direction is living under state that gives equal rights to all religions

says the modi apologist :)

PS "LInzi, I enjoy reading your comments and I agree and disagree with some of them. Hope you continue stating what you think."

Thanks, I enjoy having conversations were we can focus on points... I always enjoy good debates, whether people disagree or agree, and I often find that I can learn a lot of new things or have someone refute my own argument in ways which are still positive and constructive. :)

Gifted by her Indian in laws...Interesting....

Seems like a way to make Edvige Antonia Albina Maino sound more Indian as Sonia Gandhi instead of Edvige Antonia Albina Maino Gandhi.

Otherwise another barbaric thing will happen, there will be genocide of said populations as there have been for centuries in muslim controlled regions, so that there are very few Hindus living peaceful lives in Bangladesh or Pakistan or Afghanistan.

If the Muslim rulers of India were truly intolerant, Hinduism would have become extinct or have few followers left like Jainism with only an estimated 5 million adherents today.

The 12 million displaced Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs as a result of partition was not an intended consequence or designed by the Muslim League.

When I attended UCLA as a undergrad from 1998-2003 (I was a super senior), I noticed the lack of activism among the Desi/South Asian community. Few were involved in political issues, ironically, it was Muslim South Asians under the banner of pan-Muslim organizations that raised awareness.

To many South Asians, I was excluded and not viewed as "authentic." My friend Priti, who was a South Indian Christian, felt the isolation and she was Indian.

Even for Indian nationals studying at UCLA, one friend said it best, "These Indian Americans are confused Desis, to them Bharat is nothing more than the bhangra music or Bollywood film. What do they know? Their parents have sheltered them from the reality of South Asia."

I have heard many Desis say Indians overseas try to outdo Indians in India in terms of authenticity.

If this were slashdot.org, I'd have modded this +5 Informative.

You don't have to look very far for another "Priti". Even Anna, who posts here, always asserts her Malyalee Christian identity. I've also heard the ridiculous claim from an "aunty" who has lived here for the past 20 years or so that her kids were "more Indian" than kids who were brought up in India.

If the Muslim rulers of India were truly intolerant, Hinduism would have become extinct or have few followers left like Jainism with only an estimated 5 million adherents today.

That seems to have a tinge of hubris. They could have made another extinct, but they chose not to. What Arab religions exist today? What Afghan religions exist today in Afghanistan? Very few if any. Perhaps it was not so much that Muslim rulers were not "truly" intolerant of some weaker group, but that the other group was able to withstand and survive unlike Arab, Iranian, Afghan religions in those countries.

What Afghan religions exist today in Afghanistan? Very few if any. Perhaps it was not so much that Muslim rulers were not "truly" intolerant of some weaker group, but that the other group was able to withstand and survive unlike Arab, Iranian, Afghan religions in those countries.

Yeah, I agree, I mean Hinduism has some of the oldest written books for religion...it is certainly different than many "tribal" religions not under the umbrella of Hinduism. Of course there is also the specifics of particular regions...its geography, history, etc to why said religion survived. It's very silly to assume b/c Hinduism, Sikhism, thrived in parts of South Asia that that meant the way Islam was practiced was tolerant. Considering all the beautiful temples that were destroyed over centuries and historical record that shows how rulers ruled, there was definintely "worst than Modi" :) type genocide and violence going on, and presently goes on in certain regions of Islam controlled govts. Your hypocritical and false assertions continue to amaze me Gustavo.

Afghanistan was Buddhist, formerly Hindu and Zoroastrian since Afghanistan's Gandhara region is mentioned in the Hindu epics. Iran was Zoroastrian. Historically, despite Islam arising via the sword, Islam was not the majority faith in the Middle East till 1000 AD. The early caliphs of Islam realized that mass conversion to the faith would deprive the Islamic empire of a crucial tax base needed at the time.

In the Umayyid period, the Arab rulers relied on Greek speaking Christians to do the administrative work of the empire. While Arabic was the liturgical language of the empire, Greek was the administrative language of the empire.

The Mughals operated on a similar basis. True, Hindus who converted to Islam did so because of the social perks and prestige that came with it. In fact, some Muslim Desis I know admit to having Hindu branches of their family tree, and anecdotal stories of how their family became Muslim was not because of a sincere belief that Islam was "truth," it was about the social perks that came with it when northern India was ruled by Muslim sovereigns.

Few Muslim Indians are foreign in origins, though some may have Persian, Arab, or Turkish origins, the vast majority and their lineage have always been on the subcontinent.

Sameer, based on your name, I would assume you are at least of a Desi Muslim background.

What is so hypocritical about my statements?

Did I not acknowledge the shortcomings of my community. Kerala's success is due to the Communist Party and their enlightened policies.

Shintoism is similar to Hinduism, it is a religion whose oral traditions and sacred texts are tied to the geography of the Japanese archipelago. It is a religion that arose out of the local traditions of various localities, and eventually codified after Buddhism ascended in Japan.

In my Asian studies classes, modern Hinduism was a reaction to the ascendancy of Buddhism under Emperor Ashoka in India. Buddhism was essentially wiped out of India by Hindu persecution, by priests who desired to reinstall the old pantheon of Gods.

Buddhism has been persecuted by Muslims, Hindus, Confucians, and Shintos alike. In China, Buddhism was initially deemed a "foreign Indian" religion which contradicted with the ethos of the Han Chinese. China and India do have strikingly different civilizations. Buddhism gradually replaced the Hindu religion practiced by Southeast Asians from Thailand to Indonesia.

Islam under the Malaki Sunni Madhab eventually replaced Buddhism in maritime Malay Southeast Asia due to Indian Muslim traders. To the Malays, Islam was viewed as "another Indian religion" in a long succession of Indian faiths to replace the previous ones.

I am a secular cultural Shia Muslim. Afghanistan is on the "Indian frontier" and our culture has been shaped by cultural, theological, and historical developments that took place on the subcontinent.

We Afghans sing Indian wedding songs at our nikahs/shaadis. We incorporate Hindi/Urdu in our speech, even if our languages might be Pashto, Dari (eastern Persian dialect), Uzbek, Tajik, and other Turkic languages. Our culture is a hybrid of Persian, Indian, and Turkish influences with native elements.

The Taliban is like Pol Pot's vision of Cambodia, an abrasion to the traditional Sufi Islam of Afghanistan that had its shortcomings, but was surprisingly tolerant.

Kerala's success is due to the Communist Party

Dude most of your statements I have stopped reading. I mean you state some things that have no relevance at all. Anyways this whole convo has derailed the thread. But I'm afraid like most of what you say, the above statement is full of holes and I suggest you read more on the analysis of Kerala's major problems and successes and it's history.

Dude most of your statements I have stopped reading. I mean you state some things that have no relevance at all. Anyways this whole convo has derailed the thread. But I'm afraid like most of what you say, the above statement is full of holes and I suggest you read more on the analysis of Kerala's major problems and successes and it's history.

Well, if you don't read everything, you will come across misunderstanding my viewpoint by selecting statements out of context.

Pogrom called you a modi apologist, not I!

No nation is perfect, but for your information, I would say "Jai Hind" before I would say "Pakistani Zindabad."

Even though I may be biased to Pakistan in favor of India, I will not pretend that India is not without its flaws.

The same goes for the US and its policies towards Afghanistan since the Cold War.

Afghanistan was the victim of Cold War rivalries between the "free world" and communism.

Not all Communism is bad, the Communist Party of Indonesia were quite progressive. But the US crushed that party and thousands were slaughtered on the streets of Jakarta by government forces.

As a Muslim, I have an internationalist perspective, but I am no armchair jihadist.

PS,

You seem to be like many Desis, know-it-alls, who can't stand when non-Desis dispell your worldview.

So you are a dark-skinned South Indian of a low Hindu caste who is dating a "gora" (white man), probably Republican, and believe in the meritocracy myth of America, where if you pull yourself up by your boot straps, you will succeed. You are probably against affirmative action, thinking South Asians have not benefited from it.

I am pseudo-socialist who believes that those in a position of wealth should ensure a redistribution of wealth for those less fortunate. This comes from Islam, where Muslims are mandated to pay the zakat (poor alms - obligatory charity) to those less fortunate in society.

I don't disagree with affirmative action. Even if I would not benefit in the educational realm, South Asians have benefited from affirmative action in the rewarding of government contracts, etc.

"Socialism" and "communism" are not bad words, don't buy into the Right-wing Islamophobic sentiments that "Islam was a reign of terror in Indian history." I've been to those websites, and the historical record is much more complex.

Before pursuing the medical field, I was interested in social studies and history. Yes, I didn't want to ghettoize myself into the sciences and engineering, I resisted what my parents demanded and pursued what I liked.

I sense your rather conservative, whereas I am more liberal on many fronts.

PS,

Before I respond to you, I read your comments in their entirety before responding.

If you can't return the favor, don't bother replying.

Well of course, no one deserves to be discriminated against. But you seem to think your problems are YOURS exclusively. To be honest,I really doubt you're being discriminated against anyways, stereotyped maybe but not discriminated.

I never said Indian men love white women

I love how some people just love to make this all "you're a white woman and obsessed with yourself" bullcrap.

I don't go around telling them "oh poor you, stop crying... " I know what it is like and I know how frustrating it can be to have people judge you before meeting you and stereotype you into a box. (Like, you Jenna, and some others have done to me on Sepia Mutiny as well).

Too many people are too busy feeling upset and slighted by the 'white woman' that dares to make any comment about South Asia that they don't really seem to notice that we have more in common than we have to fight about

Many of my comments end up being about me, because it seems I need to constantly attempt to prove to others here that I am "allowed" to have an opinion about anything related to South Asia