Sometimes, you really do just have to watch the video.
Mutineers, I now present you... Finnish Bhangra -
My take? I love it. Like Absolut Mulit (full video here), it represents an incredibly perceptive outsider's take on desi culture. The music, the singing, the imagery, the dancing, and the overall gestalt are both accurate and ironic. When "inside" and "outside" mesh so darn well, it transcends the usual boundaries and we're forced to take a step back and recognize just how broad & progressively inviting the diaspora truly is.
The group, Shava, describes themselves and their mission well -
Welcome to the home page of Shava, which is guaranteed to be the world's only Finnish bhangra group. Shava plays music which is meant for fun and dancing, and Shava's gigs are a proof that their unique blend of Bollywood-bhangra dance beats with Finnish attitude and language works perfectly to free your mind and your pelvis and to make you get up and dance.Bravo....The group's name bears no complicated philosophical meaning. Shouting shava, shava>> is normal behaviour for Punjabis having a good time, and it is something the band is trying to teach to Finnish audiences.
very creative indeed. though the girls seem a bit wooden in their dancing.
Wow. That made my day... Thanks, Vinod!
I like it. But no more knight rider theme music please. It starts at the 2:40 mark.
Amazing. Beautiful. Funny. Cool.
They remind me a bit of the Trinidad Indians with their accent and moves.
Finnjabis!
How funny a coincidence to see this today.
Just this morning one of NDTV Good Times channel's episodes of "The Big Fat Indian Wedding" featured a couple who were either both ABD, or at least 1/2 of the couple was, and for the sangeet, a group of their non-desi college friends were going to perform a dance number to Mundiyan To Bachke. The girls were very earnest and intent before the camera, the boys looked like they were trying very hard not collapse on the floor in fits of laughter.
I am sorry, but I felt it was kinda lame.
It was an interesting video, creative and pretty accurate in parts, though I think that they should change the spelling of their name to 'Shaava' so that nobody confuses them with a death metal band. In the first glance, to me 'shava' means corpse (as in the aasana).
I've known about these guys for a while, they are great. There is a small Punjabi community in Helsinki, a couple of the bhangra acts from the UK go out there once in a while to do shows. That guy in the video is Gurcharan Mall of the bhangra band Apna Sangeet from Birmingham, England, who have been around over 20 years and were part of the bands that kick started the whole desi music scene in the UK. He has a school of dhol and has taught loads of kids from the next generation the music and culture of bhangra. Absolutely love it.
This is absolutely fantastic, thanks for posting!
jumala!
maistaa paremmalta kuin verimakkara :-)
I'm sorry but this was NOTHING like how Trinidadians or other Caribbean Indians, sound or dance with regards to what is a part of our culture that's been handed down from our parents and grandparents. Our girls actually have rhythm and grace thanks, I'm rather offended by this comment if you can't tell.
This, I'm sorry, was kinda lame and painful to watch.
haterz. suomalaiset kant get no love. if these were ruotsalainen you'd be lovin' it.
A little something inside me dies every time I see a South-Indian bang on about how cool bhangra is, or exchange gossip about Bollywood. I mean, why not stick to one's historic culture or get on with being an American? Dropping South-Indian-ness and adopting North-Indian stuff seems vaguely racist and as fake as a $3 bill. But maybe I'm just an ABCD.
I mean, why not stick to one's historic culture or get on with being an American?
what one's "historic culture" is changes. it's never static. as long as american south asians acknowledge that their own cultural synthesis is not necessarily a perfect reflection of what's going on in india, or for that matter fiji or trinidad, what's the problem? some american south asians do stay within their own community. and many are excited about assimilating into the dominant culture. it's a spectrum, and they're all "american," more or less. why diss? live and let live.
Dropping South-Indian-ness and adopting North-Indian stuff seems vaguely racist and as fake as a $3 bill.
also, 75% of american south asians are punjabi + gujarati last i checked. the numbers dictate the central role of north/west indian cultural traditions.
Sorry, not trying to diss anyone, Razib, I'm just saying it makes me feel sad and feels "fake" to me. Wondering if I'm a freak or what, I guess. . . .
Razib, I'm just saying it makes me feel sad and feels "fake" to me.
hm. well, as an assimilationist personally i'm not invested in what you're saying, but i can see where you're coming from, and would probably agree a bit in circa 2003. but v-man and manish changed my opinion because i could see that their own lifestyle and cultural outlook was a "third way" between assimilation and a crystallized-static identity which is just a fossil of what went down on the homeland. reading this weblog over the years i have had to pick up a lot of hindi-punjabi terms which people assume are known to all, so it's pretty obvious that that subculture is somewhat "hegemonic" in the synthesis, but it's a function of numbers i think.
eh? the guy is sharing some music he enjoyed and you're pounding your own mridangam. relax. have some jalebi.
So, "I'm just so 2003, huh?" ;-)
But, I'm honored to have you respond to me--now, what we all want to know--is FeministX for real? I've seen you comment on her site. She's Tamil, like me.
Sorry khoofi, but us South-Indian gals, as "bearers of the culture," have to try to "keep our boys in line" (and, yes, that's what they're calling it these days).
We don't eat Jalebi down South. Not sure if that was a sly joke, or more Hindi-normativity.
is FeministX for real?
she's not half sigma. don't know if she's for real. i assume "she" is more likely to fake her sex than her ethnicity.
Thanks Razib--interesting thought, too.
Ehh...Swedish..Finnish...I'm pretty sure they'd both suck the same.
here's an analogy. afrikaners in south africa have a lot of french huguenot ancestry (names like "de clerk"), and the records seem to suggest that more men from north germany arrived on the cape than from holland or other parts of the netherlands. but the core culture of the afrikaners is dutch-derived.
We don't eat Jalebi down South
but it tastes good, right? i mean, years ago someone pointed out that in parts of south india white is not the color of death. i remember being totally shocked by that, as i'd just assumed that like chinese all brownz viewed white as the color of death. it's a trivial cultural marker, and i can see getting annoyed if american south asians of northern origin impose that as normative in the united states for all south asians, especially when it's at some variance with the majority culture. OTOH, in moderation jalebis taste good anyway. similarly, a lot of people think bhangra is cool.
Iinteresting analogy, especially so close to the 'Day of the Vow'. I see your point. I guess one could say similarly of the Italians in Argentina, though they kept the food/wine more?
I guess one could say similarly of the Italians in Argentina, though they kept the food/wine more?
well, that's also an interesting case. think about what americans consider "italian" food. obviously it's really "evolved" a lot. but, it is also rooted in southern and sicilian culture, so that people whose families are from northern italy will sometimes make a big point of that since their cuisine and such is so different (more butter, less olive oil, pesto and not marinara, etc.).
Iinteresting analogy, especially so close to the 'Day of the Vow'
let's hope the ethnogenesis of the americo-brown is a bit less traumatic! :-)
I've never had a Jalebi, Razib. Will try one in honor of this conversation (thanks--I am really honored--I will have the courage to post on your gnxp site now). My original thinking was, if I'm going to try "new" (to my family) food, why focus on Jalebis, or new music, focus on Bhangra? Why are Jalebis any more special than eclairs or something Why Bhangra over Mozart? Neither is a part of our pre-USA background, but both are good. Just a weird racial thing to prefer the Jalebi. And the eclairs and Mozart are more widely available in the USA anyways.
Just a weird racial thing to prefer the Jalebi.
right. exactly. i was there in 2003. i had a hard time understanding how a pan-brown south asian identity was going to emerge without being rooted purely in race. meeting people like anna, v-man, manish, etc. has given me some sense of how it is more than race. v-man would say that there is a "push" (from the mainstream) and a "pull" (common aspects of indian culture). there are probably enough malayali christians, to tam brams, or kashmiri pandits, that you could stay in your own circle. or, you could just immerse yourself in a non-brown social and personal world (i have, and i know general the set of names i'm giving my children and aside from my surname none of them are recognizably brown). but there are also other options between the two extremes, and the punjabi culture is still more like tamil culture than either is like persian culture. even though punjabi culture does have similarities to persian culture which tamil culture is not (i'm actually also extending a relation which i've illustrated genetically). so out of the total sample space of cultural traits south asians do tend to cluster together. so yeah, you'll encounter things foreign to your "natal" culture if you venture out into the pan-brown world, especially if you're from a smaller group, but they may be less foreign than what you'd get than if you hung out with upper midwest swedes.
also, there's a lot of stuff i've eaten only at sepia mutiny meet ups. but generally they're vaguely recognizable to me.
It sounds like this TamBram is headed for a nice Northern Italian boy, who she can commiserate with over the respective hegemony of North (in Indian-American) and South (in Italian-American) cultures. But maybe that's just because I like pappardelle and haven't tried jalebi yet! Good thoughts, Razib--I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from. And, I'm glad you're planning on having lots of kids--good genes and all that!
Whoa! Here's Howard Dean in 2003, going all Bang to the Beat of the Drum. And now someone's doing Bang to the Miru Dangam. The more things change...
Tamilist, from my perspective Bhangra is fun to dance to and enjoyable, so why not enjoy it? I don't want to limit myself with labels about what/who I should or should not be.. I say.. like what you like because you like it... that's the only really way not to be fake.
LinZi, because some of us have higher expectations/goals than what you are and what you've achieved. You're OK, you're welcome here, etc., but please don't try to shut down higher-level discussions with Mr. Rogers talk.
What the.. WHAT? Loser.
tamilian is very clearly feministx, the behavior matches. feministx goes from blog to blog desperately throwing in refs to her its blog so as to increase its hit count. worth hitting the ignore button on tamilian.
oh Tamilian, won't you be my neighbor?
Maybe you need a lot more Mr. R in your life. I mean com'on, what's with the random hostility and lashing out?
teen angst.
How could anyone not like a jalebi? It, like beer, is proof that the God(s) love(s) us and want(s) us to be happy.
Jelebi is of course in the South; It was one of our favorite Indian foods - every sweet store I've been to in Kerala sells it and I never thought of it as not part of the south india...that really makes me laugh.
It, like beer, is proof that the God(s) love(s) us and want(s) us to be happy. - don't agree about the beer thing.
I don't want to interrupt the 'high level' ;) discussion about jalebi (which are delicious, though I am more partial to gulab jamun personally) but I finally got a chance to watch this Finnish Bhangra video that this post is about,
I really agree with Vinod that it is very cool how this group has brought together 'inside' and 'outside'. I really like the idea, but I would also agree with others who mentioned the video (especially the woman dancing) leave a bit to be desired. Right now the video seems a bit unpolished to me, and the dancing women just didn't really seem to go with the gaiety of the music to me.
I would bet that over time, this group Shava will take their very good idea and continue to polish it. I'm not sure how long the band has been around, or how much of a following they have, but it would be interesting to see how the group evolves.
We can never be friends.
There is a thin line between desire for the one you love and the Jalebi you crave!
Ladies. you may swoon in my general direction.
Having seen girls dancing in Chutney videos, and the lyrics sung by them, I wouldn't say they have 'grace'
Hmmmm....so people of north Indian descent shouldn't worship AR Rahman or M.I.A?
Sorry, but your post is absolutely ridiculous.
PÄÄLLIKÖT ON VOITTAMATTOMII Google translates this to "The master shall Unbeatable"
PÄÄLLIKÖT ~ Captain
VOITTAMATTOMII ~ Unbeatable
Can anyone translate this song ?
Sulabh, I believe it translates to 'the masters are unbeatable...the bhangra masters are unbeatable'. Of course, I'm no expert in Finnish, but that's what I remember seeing somewhere. :)
Johnny, that Rahman and MIA are the two examples you can come up with of "South Indian culture" is the problem.
That all you can come up with to raise the chip on your shoulder about north Indian culture is the innocuousness of bhangra music and jalebis is the problem.
(I love masala dosa as well - oh no wow that is symbolic of your marginalisation too whoops)
I've met quite a few North Indians who do Bharatanatyam as well.
Thanks Mr. Wise...
Here's what I found.
The title "Päälliköt on voittamattomii" ~ "The Chieftains Are Invincible".
The chorus goes like this:
Päälliköt on voittamattomii, bhangrapäälliköt on voittamattomii
The chieftains are invincible, the bhangra chieftains are invincible
Täytyykö se jengin päähän takoo et päälliköt on voittamattomii, Shavan päälliköt on voittamattomii
Do I have to beat it into peoples' heads that the chieftains are invincible, Shava's chieftains are invincible
Toiset bändit menkää maanrakoon ku päälliköt on...
Other bands, sink into a hole in the ground coz the chieftains are... etc.
Itämafiosot lähtee pakoon ku päälliköt on...
The Russian Mafia runs away scared coz the chieftains are... etc.
Jumalauta koko jengi lakoo ku päälliköt on voittamattomii!
For God's sake, the whole of the crowd gets knocked down coz the chieftains are invincible!
I love this - although the dancing definitely left something to be desired, at least they are trying. and the singing was brilliant.
as for tamilian - i'm surprised this whole conversation has went on for so long, because i don't understand how what tamilian thinks is relevant here. she can tell me that i'm "as fake as a $3 bill" but it won't make me give up my bhangra, or hindi/urdu, or definitive preference for jalebis over jaangiris (it's all about the crispy texture, OK?).
I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but that speech act is extremely marginalizing/silencing.
thanks for the benefit of doubt, since i did not mean it in that way, so apologies if it had that effect. what i meant was, it's your opinion, and that's fine. my comment was more towards why people were reacting to it in a certain way, since while discussion is all fine and good, it prob. won't change anybody's way of doing what they do.
"I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but that speech act is extremely marginalizing/silencing."
I think you need to reflect a little on your own 'speech acts' and how they can [attempt to] marginalize/silence others.
i spent my entire college life listening to north indian americans telling me that i should know hindi bollywood and bhangra or im whitewashed... these things had very little to do with the culture i grew up around. they are as alien to me as any other culture that is not mine, but somehow ppl expect them not to be for reasons that arent very well thought out.
dont bother responding, based on behvior on other blogs, i dont think tamilian is acting in good faith and is only interested in plugging its blog under various guises.
I like jaangiris better, but that might be because usually I eat homemade jaangiris and store-bought jalebis.
i can't get over the sogginess of a fried food - jalebis retain their crunchiness, whereas jaangiri just taste sweet and oily to me. i have issues with adhirasam, too, for similar reasons.
i spent my entire college life listening to north indian americans telling me that i should know hindi bollywood and bhangra or im whitewashed... these things had very little to do with the culture i grew up around.
i've had dbd north indians tell me the sam - that just because i don't speak hindi, i am whitewashed or too americanized. annoying, but ultimately irrelevant to how i approach desi culture.
. . . clever girl.
But you know the admins can see your IP address right?
I'm usually very interested in fusion music, so this is interesting to me on that level. But unfortunately, the dancing is rather bad. Like other commenters have mentioned, the dancers are off-beat, and the dancing just seems very off. Like someone who is mimicking moves but doesn't have the grace or training to execute them properly. Like badly performed ballet. Which makes the video seem tacky and amateurish.
Which is too bad. If they had managed to do it right, a fusion of bhangra and Finnish would seem cool.
My standard reply was always "nooru musuku penta-munda kodukku." (Romanized transliteration is problematic, but so it goes.)
It is somewhat amusing to see that anyone would think to raise the issue of "stick[ing] to one's historic culture" with respect to south indian versus north indian in reference to this particular video. Uh. Hello?
I like the vid. Very funny. However, I'm not sure if that is what they were going for.
I'm with you up until penta-munda, Yoga Fire. But I'm not sure if kodukku means heart's desire, son or something else. Darn that Romanized transliteration.
penta = manure
munda = whore
koduku = son
I was shocked at how routinely my family used that phrase once I stopped to think about what it actually meant. It turns out the Yoga Fire clan are like a Telugu version of the Osbornes.
Back to "Mulit" for a moment: did anyone save the higher-resolution QuickTime version of that? I missed this when it came out and now it's no longer on the Absolut web site! :-(
Surely there is a copy circulating from hand to hand? Please?
Shout-out to Puliogre in #62. Your experience is mine as well.
Yoga Fire in #69. What do the first two words mean? 100 something? I speak the Lankan variety of Tamil, sorry. I guess some slang is different.
Tamilian @ 75 - that phrase from Yoga Fire was in Telugu, not Tamil.
hilarious! tamilian provides evidence of its own trollery and fraud.
Thanks, ak--that explains it. I thought it was slang I didn't know.
This video was hilarious! I personally didn't like it. I preferred Anita Lerche's efforts "Denmark Di Heer" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rPNVCvOaJw
Please tell me that was not "Gurcharan Mall" at the beginning of the vid..... i will cry if it was :'(
Any chance of a hat tip to Tyler Cowen?
Tamilian, I'm with you as far as the "not relating to north Indian culture" thing goes. I'm another Tamilian myself, and Bollywood doesn't really do anything for me.
But I also speak Japanese better than I speak Tamil, and I know far more about western classical music than Carnatic music, so that's where our similarities end. (I also am not big on jalebis, but I love idlis and vathal kuzhambu (separate and together!).) This idea that relating to and embracing other cultures beyond just our own is somehow repugnant (note that I'm saying "beyond" and not "instead of") is awfully short-sighted. There's a lot of beauty in the world and a lot of wonderful things to learn and experience that can enrich you. It's important to know where you come from, obviously, and to have pride in your roots, but to limit yourself to only that means you'll lead a pretty boring and short-sighted existence. Plus, how do you really know what makes your own culture distinct and unique if you don't immerse yourself in other ways of thinking and viewing the world? Try it sometime. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Samosamancer, I'm with you, actually--see # 33 above, which meant to say something like you just said (though you are more eloquent).
Really? I mean this in all sincerity, and I don't mean to dredge this all up now that it's possibly settled down, but I feel like that is directly contradictory to many of the other views you espoused here, like:
I was responding to this mentality, and also speaking up in defense of LinZi (who I agreed with wholeheartedly). In response to the above, I don't consider myself an American, though I'm not "very" Indian, either (the first time I visited India was when I was 18, so...yeah). But what's the harm in a person from TN enjoying bhangra and Bollywood? It's not like a "my part of India or nothing at all" deal, like they're limited to bharatanatyam and no other options and they're letting everyone down because they aren't carrying on their specific cultural traditions. Think about how northerners in the US sometimes poke fun at northern-dwelling people who like country music and line dancing, which are traditionally southern-oriented art forms...that's just silly, right? People like what they like--it's as simple as that.
Samosamancer, I partially agree and partially disagree. It's true that, in the abstract, it's fine to say "people like what they like, what's the big deal." But when those choices are non-random and biased in a way that has serious cumulative effect, it's worth thinking about whether those aggregate effects are desirable. It's sort of like saying "people can like who they like." But, if it turned out that nobody liked girls under 5'5", that would be a problem, and I doubt you'd be siding with those who were trying to silence those who were attempting to discuss the problem.
But it isn't a mutually exclusive thing--that's what you don't seem to be getting. Just because people like doing bhangra, that doesn't mean they don't like doing bharatanatyam (just as one example). And southerners liking bhangra doesn't mean bharatanatyam is going to die out. It's impossible to generalize--there are just too many of us, you know?
Granted, I will say that I really am not in touch with these sorts of trends, and I'm not sure if bharatanatyam and the like are indeed "dying out". But in general, it seems like having this kind of defensive, alarmist viewpoint aggravates the issue. Shutting everything else out as a sort of defense mechanism for the sake of "purity" isn't the answer, and it certainly isn't feasible in this day and age. Be proud of where you come, from but embrace new things enthusiastically. This isn't some kind of endangered language with fewer than 100 speakers left--South Indian music and dance are still very strong and recognizable traditions, and teachers are traveling all over the world to spread their knowledge to new students (Indian and not), so they're totally being passed down.
Samosamancer, again I partially agree and partially disagree. My point is not that South Indian culture is going to die out b/c of a wave of bhangra. My point is confined to South Asian-American culture. And, the hegemony of bhangra in that culture is unhealthy. It's sad to see South Indians, etc. getting all into bhangra and Bollywood in a mono-cultural way once they get to and/or are born and bred in Canada or the U.S.
As a South Indian growing up in the States, I completely understand that sense of feeling left out when it comes to desi culture. But, on the other hand, how is adopting North Indian culture any different (or as it seems here, worse) than adopting American culture? Clearly, if we are talking of growing up as a South Asian-American, American culture is the hegemonic one, no? In some ways, this argument is akin to TN being averse to learning Hindi, but not averse to accepting English.
And anyway, what is wrong with bhangra? I love Tamil culture in many ways, but I also find it, to some extent, a bit too reserved for my tastes (e.g. if I moved to India, I don't think I would choose Madras as a place I could live long-term), and that has more to with my personality than anything - just because one grows up in one culture/country does not mean that that is the one most suited to them as an individual. Things like bhangra appeal to people because they're fun, and a way to let loose, and offer a different form of expression than e.g. bharata natyam.
I think this dialogue, despite the focus on the diaspora, also ignores what South Indians in India are doing - for one thing, many urban people of our generation are living in South Indian cities that are quite cosmopolitan (both nationally and internationally), and are exposed to various non-South Indian aspects any day. And many South Indians growing up in north Indian cities similarly are familiar with north Indian culture - for them, the issues is less of north-south Indian, and more an issue of being Indian. I don't understand how the north-south divide becomes so magnified in the context of the diaspora.
ak, I'm not sure I follow you. Someone in TN learning English and not Hindi makes perfect sense. English is currently the leading global language and opens up job opportunities so it makes sense to choose it. As far as my real topic of growing up in America, adopting American culture is different--again, it makes sense--we choose to come to America b/c we like its culture (imperfect though it may be) and more opportunities open up as we assimilate to some degree. If we move to Delhi, ok, fine, adopt some North Indian culture. I'm not objecting to that at all. But for a South Indian to move to America and then to adopt Bhangra/Bollywood/Hindi is, in my opinion, quite odd. Why did the Tamil choose moving to America over moving to Delhi or Calcutta? Because, all things considered, we prefer American culture, taking culture broadly to include economic structure, political system, etc. OK, you can point out that food/music/movies is different than jobs and politics, but if we want to be "traditional" about food and music, as I do, then it makes perfect sense to stick to South Indian food and music. Again, to quote Puliogre from #62, to go for Bhangra/Bollywood/Hindi would seem to be "for reasons that aren't very well thought out" and, I am arguing, those reasons are problematic, that is, race-based.
My reference to the Hindi vs English in TN was to the initial educational requirement of Hindi in each state after Independence, and the decision then had less to do with global opportunities.
As far as the situation of a South Asian American, you are referring to ABDs, who did not make the decision to come to the States - by and large, this was the decision of our parents, either before we were born or at an age when we were not capable of making such a decision, so your argument on choosing America over e.g. New Delhi is not applicable. And even if we go that route, you are saying that "we" prefer American culture - but what if people like North Indian culture? To relate it back the real topic of this post, bhangra is fun, and clearly has an appeal. More specifically, I go for bhangra, Hindi/Urdu, and Bollywood - for reasons that, to some extent, have been thought out very well - they may not be your preferences or make sense to you, but don't insult my intelligence (and free choice) by saying that there is no forethought to these decisions.
and please don't misquote the puli:
they are as alien to me as any other culture that is not mine, but somehow ppl expect them not to be for reasons that arent very well thought out.
his reference to lack of being well thought out has to do with people's expectations about the familiarity of north indian culture to south indians, not the appeal of north indian culture to south indians.
Hey! Tamilian! Don't you have some train tracks to sit on, buses to burn, and EVR signs to carry?
ak, have to disagree on the puli-interpretation, his use of "as alien to me as any other culture" suggests no particular appeal.
With respect, I think that you are ignoring my point about how individual "choices" when non-random and biased, can have in the aggregate negative effects. And yes, I think that those aggregated negative effects need to be talked about. So, it does trouble me that you hit the Bhangra/Bollywood/Hindi trifecta, even though the vast majority of your individual choices I have no comment on. It's because the trifecta is so stereotypical, so non-random from among the range of other cultures.
another Tamilian, I'm not that kind of Tamil.
With respect, I think that you are ignoring my point about how individual "choices" when non-random and biased, can have in the aggregate negative effects. And yes, I think that those aggregated negative effects need to be talked about.
nobody forced me into hindi. being surrounded by north indians in college introduced me to a culture i had never been aware of, and as a lover of languages, hindi/urdu appealed to me, and it all started from there. and to no extent has it overshadowed my interest in south indian culture.
So, it does trouble me that you hit the Bhangra/Bollywood/Hindi trifecta, even though the vast majority of your individual choices I have no comment on. It's because the trifecta is so stereotypical, so non-random from among the range of other cultures.
well, that's where you assume - i don't just have an interest in pop north indian culture - i love hindi for the language, and by extension, urdu as well, and this extends, to some degree, to their literary forms. i also think, as with any language, these languages give an insight into a totally different way of thinking. and my interest in north indian/pakistani culture extends beyond - to a better understanding of e.g. north indian cultural traditions and their nuances. qawwali is one of my favourite forms of music, and because i can understand hindi, i am able to appreciate hindustani music and kathak better. so, there's nothing "stereotypical" about my interest in north indian culture - and i only mentioned that trifecta because you did.
alright, just hold placards outside clubs on bollywood night then. and maybe picket dj rekha.
Tamilian,
You mentioned that you speak the Sri Lankan variety of Tamil.So one assumes that your ancestral roots are in Sri Lanka. You have also mentioned that you are an American citizen (ABCD).
Yet you feel that it is totally appropriate for you to subject us to your unsolicited sermons on how South Indians (not just Tamilians, your ethnic kin, but all South Indians, living below an imaginary line on the map that suits your fancy) should relate to their fellow countrymen- With whom they share a constitution, a central government, educational boards, national institutions,a film industry (it may be a Hindi language industry, but it's certainly not a "North" Indian one), a cricket team- you know, the whole one nation thing.
Highly odd, and more than a little annoying, I must say.
much respeck , thalaivar, for dealing with this jujube properly.
Corpse Commander, as I've said repeatedly, my point is about South Indians abroad, particularly in America, not South Indians in India. You're missing that but picking up on my one Lankan reference? My mother was born in SL, yes, and my father in TN, but the main reason I said that is that my Tamil-language tutor as a kid was from Jaffna, so my language which is necessarily a second language and hence a bit formal, lacks good TN slang.
ak:
ak, may I again suggest kuchipudi instead?
pingpong, your cross-referencing is very impressive - i've missed your humour. and kuchipudi is indeed the perfect solution to my tamil-telugu identity crisis. but did you instead mean disco kuchipudi? looks a lot more fun ;)
Corpse Commander, your comment in #97 makes sense if and only if "Indian" is understood to mean exclusively "a national of India." This is not its only or only standard meaning, as I suspect you know. See, for example, #'s 3, 4, 8 & 11 in the following mainstream English definition, if you wish to be difficult on the topic. So, I'm not sure why you're putting such a narrow interpretation on what I've meant by "Indian"--it's simply inaccurate in a plain-language sense. Also, on a more subtle level, note that NRIs in the USA can, for example, donate to US political campaigns, count for allocation of legislative districts, pay taxes, etc. So you are being weird if you think that NRI's are wholly separable from ABD's in terms of involvement/engagement/relevance to North American culture, politics, and economics. Uncle, please!
As a North Indian fan of bharatnatyam (and classical Indian dance in general) I'm surprised to hear some of Tamilian's comments. Sure, bhangra has begun to represent south asia's contribution to global pop culture, but South Indian traditions, for various historical regions, have come to represent CLASSIC Indian culture in its unadulterated form. North and west India has no classical dance tradition to speak of besides Kathak, which has a great deal of Turkish and Persian influence. Why should one feel threatened by bhangra and bollywood becoming part of pan-south asian popular culture, if South Indian classical dances are already part of pan-south asian HIGH culture? Chola bronzes (the nataraja that's in every hindu household), carnatic music, etc. are authentically Indian in a very real way (not to take away from the achievements of Indo-Islamic culture...its awesome as well).
As for Hindi, its a vernacular descendant of Sanskrit-which is nearly if not equally important in South Indian culture as Tamil-that a lot of south asians happen to know. That some south indians would adopt it seems like an acceptable notion...nothing marginalizing about that. Even genetically, most South Asian groups cluster along a north-south axis, but cluster nevertheless. As Razib previously stated, we are more similar than different. Watching a Tamil movie may be a bizarre experience to a northie, but IMO its the similarity despite the differences that accounts for the "alienness" of it, kind of like a cultural Uncanny Valley.
as a sane person, i am surprised to hear so many people engaging tamilian's asinine comments and indulging in exegesis of its silly statements.
I think the point being missed here one that tamilian has repeated over and over again. Lets take one single issue and go from there : Bollywood. Why is bollywood somehow the only definition of Indian cinema accepted as desi by america? I would argue that the problem for indians in america has more to do with non-indians and how many of them view indians as a monolithic entity. Its therefore a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy that south asians are a victim of when raised in a country where they are expected to define desi-ness through culturally alien things such as bollywood. Also noteworthy is that there is also a very real version of the north south cultural divide that plays out in India, but that is not the point of debate here. Tamilians comments are not asinine, your's are simply anti-intellectual.
a. it's yours.
b. there is no need to masquerade as a second commenter to support yourself.
c. i guess any tripe can be passed off as intellectual these days....
what the hell does this mean? who is "america" and who is doing the "accepting"?
a. it's yours.
b. there is no need to masquerade as a second commenter to support yourself.
c. i guess any tripe can be passed off as intellectual these days....
Why is bollywood somehow the only definition of Indian cinema accepted as desi by america?
what the hell does this mean? who is "america" and who is doing the "accepting"?
I assure you friend that I am not the original commentator. The rest of what you said is not worth responding to.
oh come on, tamilian. no need to take so much offense. by the way, it would be "i assure you, friend, that...".
intellectually yours,
another t.
oh come on, tamilian. no need to take so much offense. by the way, it would be "i assure you, friend, that...".
intellectually yours,
another t.
Bud, quit while your're just a little behind.
Who said Bollywood is the only definition of Indian film accepted as Desi? What about Buffalaxed? Little Superstar?
Hindi will always be a controversial topic, but IMO its not that great of a hurdle.
Bollywood has primacy because is the only pan-Indian film industry around. The native language in Maharashtra is MARATHI. Why is bollywood making movies in Hindi? Because Bollywood makes movies for ALL Indians, and the fact is most Indians speak Hindi. Even in a so-called Southern state like Andrah Pradesh loads of people speak hindi/urdu (Hyderabad).
Have you seen a lot of Marathi movies? Gujarati ones? How about Bhojpuri?
Loads of South Indian talent goes into Bollywood. A. R. Rahman? Shankar Mahadevan? And of course, many gorgeous Bollywood actresses. Several high-profile Tamil directors have made Bollywood movies. Mani Ratnam?
The question I would ask is, why NOT Bollywood?
I'd add that South Indian cinema (Tamil and Telegu) doesn't seem appreciably different from Bollywood (could be wrong, so feel free to enlighten me). And what about dubs? Roja? Humseh he Muqabula? Bombay? All popular Tamil movies dubbed in Hindi that have been very successful with North Indians.
"So-called Southern"? What? And if you continue to refer to Hyderabad as being in Andhra Pradesh instead of Telengana, I shall go on a fast.
Actually I need to lose about 10 pounds, so if you can mix AP and Telengana for a little while it'll give me some incentive.
This is the correct interpretation. a lot of those guys think that i should somehow be north indian for reasons i never understood. north indian culture is as alien to me as any other culture. i dont mind learning about bhangra for the same reason i dont mind leaning about roman culture or chinese opera. but, the assumption is somehow i dont know "my" culture because im not into hindi and bhangra. but im just not a north indian. somehow this fact just bounces off north indian americans heads... also, my upbringing by my parents seems to make ppl think im white washed. they act like i need to be lying to my parents have have parents that are completely clueless or i am somehow not plugged into the desi experience....its just not how my community works.
I think the point being missed here is that these things are not mutually exclusive. I like Bollywood films, but I have also watched and enjoyed Tamil films, Bangla films, etc. Liking Bollywood does not preclude me from liking or exploring films from other regions of India.
If we want to talk about Indians in the U.S.-- most Indians in the U.S. (born or moved from India) that I have interacted with are much more likely to mix between regional/culturalinguistic groups than I see in India. My north Indian friend in grad school had a Tamil speaking roommate, a Telugu speaking roommate, and another guy who I think was from north India. When I hung out at their house I could be offered sambhar one day and some north dish the next. Those guys (all from India, not born in the U.S.) watched Bollywood in addition to their regional films, and didn't all all seem to be convinced that north Indian cultural was taking over everything else. Another grad school friend from Rajastan lived with a Malayali and we would all eat idli together there at their house, yum!
Of course there will be a more pan-indian thing going on the U.S. simply because there are less Indians and not all of them are from the same place-- where I live, pretty much every Indian I run into is a Patel, (and there are not too many Indians at all, anyways) so I'm sure if one of said Patel's ran into a Nair they would find some common pan-Indian thing to share.
I work in a place where I deal with a lot of immigrant related tasks, and when I do said tasks for Indians, I notice most of the Indians immigrating currently are from the Punjab and Gujarat. Since Bhangra is from the Punjab, then doesn't it really make sense that it is on the forefront, seeing as how a larger population is coming from that area?
And Bollywood is the biggest film industry in the world, many people all over the world watch it, not just North Indians (it is very popular in Nepal (my Nepali friend learned Hindi from Bollywood) Afghanistan, and I even read how it is actually very popular in certain countries in Africa as well. (I think one of the articles I read was about Ghana, but it has been awhile, so I could be mistaken)
One of my good college friends family was from Kerala, and while he had a strong Syrian Orthodox Mayali community that he grew up with, he also grew up watching Bollywood movies with his family. In fact, he is the one who first bought me a Hindi book and encouraged me to learn Hindi.
I think the issue here for you, Tamilian, is more internal for you. I think you are probably kind of searching for your identity and trying to define yourself and your place in the world. Being Tamil is very important and meaningful for you, which is totally fine, and should be something you can take pride in.
At the same time, I see your search as a very American thing-- in this country people love to search and try to find "who" they are and often do this by consuming different products-- should I buy punk clothes or preppie? Should I listen to rap or classical? Should I drive a Prius or a Jeep? Should I watch Hollywood? Indie Films? Bollywood?
The thing is, what you CONSUME is not and should not be your identity. No matter what you do, you are still Tamil. You can define what kind of a Tamil you want to be, but if you decide to wear kurtas or jeans really isn't going to change who you are or your identity, it is just a change of clothes.
We are conflating subjects here.
Thats great but its not what is being discussed. The question is why is it that a south indian growing up in the US is made to feel that his/her authenticity is measured by north indian cultural artifacts. There is no debate regarding bollywoods dominance in indian cinema.
Excellent. Thank you for contributing something meaningful to the conversation. Sounds like this would have a lot to do with how indians are percieved in the US. Its probably the closest thing to a 'why' we have come up with so far in the american context.
They are quite different. I would also add that south indian cinema tends to be far more regional in its audience vs north indian cinema. For example, tamil movies are watched almost exclusively by tamil people whereas bollywood movies tend to cater to gujaratis, punjabis, etc.. The regional nature of the audience in south india also adds to the alienness of bollywood in many places. Those movies you mention are by far the exception vs the norm. North indians are far less likely to watch south indian cinema than vice-versa.
Most indians watch bollywood movies because they can understand the language.Learning Hindi is compulsory in all indian schools whether it is North India or South India.A lot of North indians practise Bharathanatyam,kathakali and other South indian dance forms.
Anon (#114) you are also forgetting that there are many northern regional language film industries too-- Bhojpuri, Bengali, etc. All of those are not as talked about as Bollywood either.
Anon (#114) you are also forgetting that there are many northern regional language film industries too-- Bhojpuri, Bengali, etc. All of those are not as talked about as Bollywood either
Correct, but what I am saying is that Bollywood caters more to a north Indian audience. The regional industries certainly exist but that is not particularly of interest to what I'm saying.
This was the impression I received, too. She's sorting this all out for herself, but in the process, she's projecting her personal views of how she wants to live onto everyone at large, which really isn't the best idea, as I think we all know. ;) There are way too many situations and circumstances to consider--no two people define their own cultural identity the same way and you (this is a general "you," not directed at any one person) really can't judge someone's personal cultural definitions by your own personal standards.
Also, this conversation really has nothing to do with bollywood. For the record I do think bollywood is heads and shoulders above other regional industries so my statements should not be taken as a slight against it.
erroneous.
"Anon (#114) you are also forgetting that there are many northern regional language film industries too-- Bhojpuri, Bengali, etc. All of those are not as talked about as Bollywood either
"Correct, but what I am saying is that Bollywood caters more to a north Indian audience. The regional industries certainly exist but that is not particularly of interest to what I'm saying."
Maybe part of the problem is that the regional language film industries, northern and southern, sometimes do get labeled as "Bollywood" by non-desis? Like if a movie in Malayalam with English subtitles is playing at an art-house cinema in an American city, a whole bunch of Americans who notice and who aren't desi would think "oh yeah, that's a Bollywood movie." I can see how American adults claiming that if it's an Indian film it's Bollywood could give American youngsters (including Desi-American kids who overhear this stuff) the impression that if it's not Bollywood it's not an Indian film...
The truth is that most Indian cinema that gets to the US or has significant international buzz tends -- and let me repeat, tends, to be from mainstream Bollywood. This is simply due to bollywoods place in the industry. While it is entirely plausible that there is someone walking around thinking that a malayalam movie he/she just watched is bollywood, its not significant to what i am saying.
why? because i was born into it?
wasn't the entire alienation angst and emo stuff done with in the 90s? is it still so fashionable that we need to find excuses to wallow in it?
well, yeah actually you are born a Tamil. Just like I was born a Croatian/German/etc/whatever.
I eat palachinke and povitica and enjoy Spingerle at Christmas because it was passed down in my family from my Croatian/German sides respectively.
But if I stop eating them and only eat "Bouche de Noel" it won't make my ancestry suddenly disappear.
And no, unfortunately, I don't think the alienation/emo angst will ever be done with. Someone always has something to feel alienated or angsty about. And before emo there were plenty of other especially angsty people. Maybe America should be known for it's angst and inner turmoil. ;)
Thank you puli, for #112; a thousand-times thank you--you validate my view against the critics, who go way too far in my point of view in exaggerating my claim. I won't repeat my point because I think I've been clear enough.
but that wasnt the point, was it? you said "No matter what you do, you are still Tamil. ". whcih reads to me as a statement about my identity, not my ancestry. and identities are as much created and molded, probably more so, than inherited.
well, I don't think it's that simple.
Being Tamil has to do with ethnicity, culture AND linguistic identity. Growing up in America, you might take different parts of the last two (or not have any of those) but you would still, technically be Tamil regardless.
My point is more about what you consume-- if you get hung up on what you should consume "as a Tamil" it becomes a little silly, doesn't it?
And if people would like to think that all Tamilians in India/Sri Lanka express themselves in one singular way, than of course we would be doing a great disservice to people.
My point was that it is not something clear cut, such as "Tamils should eat this, Croatians should listen to that music, Germans should wear these clothes." I think the ethnic-cultural-linguistic connections come more from your ties to people-- family, friends, community, and your knowledge and interest to be informed and appreciate various things about the culture.
I am probably not speaking very clearly, as I am sort of just running with my thoughts (it is late, isn't it?) but I just think Americans have this tragic ability to equate everything with 'what kind of consumer are you?". being part of ANY group becoming purchasing 'the right' items for the identity at hand. Get your special moisture wicking sun-proof mosquito repellent shirt and BAM you are an expert hiker. Buy some black clothes and spiky jewelery and you can now officially express your angst with the 'preppie' norm. Coming out? Cut your hair and buy some men's clothes to properly express your lesbian-hood.
My argument is that what you consume does not make or change who you are (unless it is some crazy freakish thing-- like "I buy corpses", then of course that has some sort of moral implication attached to it.) But something like enjoying Bhangra or Bollywood? What does it really mean? Not too much. It's pretty simple and straight forward. Maybe I sound all "Mr, Rogers" or whatnot, but isn't is really more important to feel secure and happy with ourselves as a human being, or Tamil, or Croat or whatnot, rather than trying to 'find' some sort of identity outside of ourselves (i.e. in consumer goods/actions)?
Don't get me wrong, I definitely went through that stage as well-- I was miss "punk rock" in high school and had all the outfits etc to properly display my leftie political anger and rebellion against the mainstream.. ;) I think most Americans go through that process with the current consumer climate. But I think it is good to learn and grow and at some point I realized that conforming to rebellion is kind of the same as conforming to the norm.
In the end, my identity probably hasn't changed much in my life-- still have the same morals and behavior, same way of interacting with the world (and of course, no one can change their upbringing and family)-- but my outward appearance has-- I don't really feel the need to display who I am or what I believe through buying certain things. And I don't try to evaluate whether or not I should or should not like something based on the Identity I wish/hope to have. I just, as I said before, try to be comfortable and secure in liking the things I like. Not everyone likes this, and many people will make assumptions about me and why I live the way I live, but hey, I can't please everyone, right?
I read Tamilians comments and stopped at around comment 100 because I got lazy. The ensuing comments must be the same, right? People trying to make Tamilian understand that she doesn't need to be insecure about her culture and one can embrace all kinds cultures and still be who they are on the inside...
Anyway. I was once like you--annoyed that my fellow South Indians were gravitating towards bhangra and watching hindi movies over ridiculously cheesy tamil movies. And then I realised all of them knew how to speak their languages, and secretly did watch tamil movies with their parents and had this whole South Indian world I wasn't aware of. I think what Tamilian's problem is that she's afraid her culture isnt considered "cool". Well, if you keep on saying that, it will be! Make it cool, woman!
I'm a proud, dorky, South Indian gal who loves Bhangra, Bollywood, Kollywood, and Tollywood. And the thing is, most of the South Indian kids I know are the same. We've all danced bharatanatyam at some point in our lives, and we've all been to our fair share of garbas/dandias.
Actually, now that I think of it, I don't have the same problem Tamilian had growing up. It probably helps that I live in a Indian hotspot with a sizable number of North and South Indians--and the fact that I'm still in high school. I'm sorry that Tamilian has to feel that way, but know the tides are turning! Us southies are getting our time in the sun :)
Wow, this thread has drifted soooo far off topic!! Anyhow, without wading into this whole "my culture vs. your culture" debate, may I just say that I find the idea of Finns doing a bhangra video kinda weird, but kinda captivating also. It's just amazing to see how far Indian culture has spread around the world. And I say this as a south Indian, mind you. :)
People like Tamilian are all too common. You whine over whatever emasculation u felt at some point, and want the world to accept you but all u do is "discuss at a higher level". fuck that noise.
Here's an example that may serve as an analogy. When hiphop was birthed and started getting popular, it was very much a NYC/East Coast thing. Feeling that their "distinct" culture and voices were not heard, the compton folks weren't whiny ass shits. they started putting their music out there, repping them. Then u had the hotlanters, and other folks from the south. what none of them did was wait around and whine like a pussy.
Why is it the punjabis problem that they love their bhangra so much to want to throw their hands in the air like they jus don't care? what's stopping u and other tamils from joining ur own dappangoothu band and performing? btw, dappangoothu is the correct comparison for a folk dance from the south and not bharatanatyam as the latter is classical, and doesn't lend itself to party-sharty and as indication of baby-making ability as much as the koothu.
And, if you go to any idli-dosa place in tamil nadu, they serve puris and "parottas". And all of it is considered south indian food. things have a way of being co-opted to a point where everything belongs to everyone.
have to agree wtih delirium their
the reason bhangra has been big is cuz its open to experimenting
noones having a problem with singing in finnish
you have had bhangra being mixed with reggae
you even have heavy metal bhangra with bands like ludhiana
some smart tamil kid is probably gonna mix bhangra with bharatnatyam someday
^ Well that's sort of like mixing hip-hop with ballet...interesting for novelty value, sure, but bharatnatyam is a classical art form and should be treated as such.
Yes, but this is exactly the problem. I don't identify with bhangra or hiphop. Why should I? I'm down with Bharatanatyam and Mozart. So, I'm ok, you're ok, but--I've had far too many desis in the US try to download their bhangra and hip-hop stuff on me like I'm supposed to like it b/c I'm desi. I wouldn't tell them they're not desi b/c they don't like Bharatanatyam and Mozart. So back off.