Haskell recalled seeing terror suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab escorted to the gate by a “well-dressed Indian man”, who tried to intervene on Abdulmutallab’s behalf and browbeat an airline employee in to overlooking the fact that the wanna-be martyr lacked a passport. WTF? Who gets to board anything without a passport, these days?

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Total Desi uncle move. I can just picture it!

Complete with the head nod thingy - i love it!

Do other South Asians do that as well? If not, then yeah, the uncle was Indian. Perhaps that was the dead give away.

but whatever his ethnic origin

Mais oui--isn't this the problem? The English-language term "Greek" refers to a nationality, an ethnicity, and a language--obviously, Indian doesn't refer to a language, but it does refer to a nationality. Does it also refer to an ethnicity? Your point, I take it, is that "South Asian" is the better term for--what--surely not a language nor a nationality? An ethnicity, then? Or just a geographic region? But what, then, the set of ethnicities that have been found there in the past 1000 years? I am perplexed.
At any rate, the Detroit bombing attempt once again highlights that the problem is not an ethnicity, but an ideology.

Your point, I take it, is that "South Asian" is the better term for--what--surely not a language nor a nationality?

My point/thought process was actually more like...

"WTF, did that guy just say some INDIAN MAN helped a suspected terrorist get on a plane?"

"Wait...how did he know he was INDIAN? He could've been Bangladeshi. Eh, it's not like most Amreekans can or care to tell the difference."

"Still, that's sloppy. And weird. What's weirder is that the host is letting him say it over and over without attempting to delve deeper or clarify..."

"Whatever, mang...I wonder who this 'well-dressed' guy is...this is mad shady. DUDE! I should post this on SM!"

"That is the stupidest idea, ever. Everyone will pounce on the 'South Asian'-thing and it will be a commenting-clusterfuck, one which I can't even moderate since Comcast sucks about keeping their word."

"Oooh, but if I *do* post, it's an excuse to use my xmas gift!" :)

So yeah, the post was meant to focus on the (unreported?) fact that a Desi person may have enabled some asshole to almost blow up a plane, but I can see how it may go elsewhere. We've done the "South Asian vs. Indian" death-match posts SEVERAL times before...and years ago, to boot. I promise I didn't want to go there [but I'm out of practice wrt blogging, so I did. :(] Thanks for giving me this attempt to clarify my intentions, though.

I happened to chance upon another interview with Kurt Haskell this morning which went in a similar vein - not only did this mention of the "Indian" man puzzle me as it did you, ANNA, but the whole interview that I heard just made me feel a bit sick about the view of certain groups held by certain Americans. Although, to Haskell's credit, he stated that he didn't think "terrorist" when he saw these two together.

WTF?

I predict this turns out to be a bunch of garbage with no connection at all to what happened.

The illogical overreaction of our government has been very sad. The government's job is to prevent terrorists from getting on board in the first place. It is not to punish the vast majority of innocent passengers who are already on board with stupid rules that are nothing more than security theater. The fact that I can no longer read a book within the hour before landing means that even an incompetent terrorist who can't even explode an underwear bomb has totally succeeded in what he set out to do.

Anna,
I see your point, and I don't mean to distract. Just wanted to suggest that Haskell's comment wasn't necessarily so crazy as to have meant the guy was of Indian nationality. If it was instead meant as "ethnically" Indian, it's not "so" crazy. "South Asian" is at best a modest improvement, given the diversity of ethnic groups in the area.

The fact that I can no longer read a book within the hour before landing means that even an incompetent terrorist who can't even explode an underwear bomb has totally succeeded in what he set out to do.

Yep, if I can't pee before landing, the terrorists have won! Of course, they only have said you can't use the bathroom--maybe if I see it, I'll spray it. . . .

He could have been a Yemin national or even Egyptian. Many people could pass for Indian.

Wow, I can't believe they let him on a flight to the US without a passport. WHAT THE F----?

Did someone "Indian" help the Nigerian bomber in Amsterdam?

I believe the correct term is Native American.

even an incompetent terrorist who can't even explode an underwear bomb has totally succeeded in what he set out to do.

It is amazing that yet another engineer who has an explosion in his pants on seeing the stewardesses is still news.

security theater.

i see your point, and I don't mean to distract. Just wanted to suggest that Haskell's comment wasn't necessarily so crazy as to have meant the guy was of Indian nationality. If it was instead meant as "ethnically" Indian, it's not "so" crazy. "South Asian" is at best a modest improvement, given the diversity of ethnic groups in the area.

This is what we get for not responding to an email from a needy woman asking for help in transferring her untold millions to the US to escape the clutches of the tyrannical dictators who hold her in their country. And all she wanted was our bank account and wire transfer details.

9 · Saheli on December 29, 2009 12:47 AM · Direct link

Wow, I can't believe they let him on a flight to the US without a passport. WHAT THE F----?

Personally this bit of information makes me highly dubious.... I mean, anyone else who has flown a lot internationally like me (which I bet is a lot of you) would know that you can't just go traveling around without a passport. There is more than one person who is going to check you for a passport before you get on the plane anyways. Even if it got past one person, someone else would be checking for it.

so maybe the issue, then, is . . . not even knowing enough to use the term "south asian" to encompass all those originating from the region.

Well, I am biased by my age and education, but calling this an "issue" is to privilege the past few years of North American academic jargon over the world's hundreds of millions of English-language speakers who are not familiar with the term "South Asian." In fact, in my schoolboy days (and English is my second language) "Middle East" referred to Central and Southern Asia, that's why "Near East" was used to mean the Levant, and "Far East" what is now known as East Asia. So let's not get too dug in over the one allegedly timelessly correct term, that's just a bit shallow and provincial. Unless you're an ideologue, in which case I apologize.

t this rate, we'll soon have a personal seat handcuff in addition to entertainment systems

I wouldn't be so sure about the entertainment systems.

"A nearby passenger also observed one of men watching what appeared to be footage of a suicide bombing, but was actually a scene from the 2007 movie "The Kingdom.""

Apparently, "they" see something, you say something.

euro wrote:

Just wanted to suggest that Haskell's comment wasn't necessarily so crazy as to have meant the guy was of Indian nationality. If it was instead meant as "ethnically" Indian, it's not "so" crazy. "South Asian" is at best a modest improvement, given the diversity of ethnic groups in the area.

You don't seem to grasp the significance of what you have yourself written. While all categories and adjectives get a little fuzzy at their edges, the term 'Indian' when used as an ethnic identifier is fuzzy even at its core, given, as you note, the 'diversity of ethnic groups in the area'.

In addition to the internal diversity, there are lots of Sudanese, Ethiopians, Arabs, even some Greeks, not to speak of Burmese, Thais or Chinese - who look like 'Indians' (and vice-versa). Therefore the only use of the term that can be precise, in the context of describing someone - is nationality. And therefore you don't even suggest someone is 'Indian' unless you've checked his passport.

non-euro, that's just silly--there is no reason to be so dogmatic that "Indian" means nationality, as opposed to ethnicity--as I said, consider "Greek" or "Spanish."

Gosh, we are everywhere. And we do look a lot like a whole bunch of people. At yesterday's showing of (the non-Vaishnavist) "Avatar," my nine-year-old asked me if the scientist called "Max" were Indian.

Is he?

I whispered back that he could be generic Tamizh/Malayalee/Bengali and equally Egyptian/Lebanese/Ethiopian/African American.

My point being I suck at identifying people by their appearance alone, and that probably plenty of other people do as well, because our phenotypes are pretty mixed/identical. And apropos of nothing, I'm going to add that I wouldn't mind having blue skin and love to be able to move like the Na'avi. Also, was their blue skin a nod to the ur-avatars of Rama and Krishna?

there is no reason to be so dogmatic that "Indian" means nationality

It's becoming clear you don't have a leg to stand on, argument-wise. This is not about being 'dogmatic', it's about being precise, arguing logically, and about not using terms signifying national origin as ethnic descriptors.

I don't need to put up with an all-purpose stand-in term like 'Indian' with a history of being an old colonialist and racist shorthand - as an ethnic identifier - just because other people are lazy, or feel like being lexically imprecise, because that has no consequence to them.

Just wanted to say I am glad you are back blogging, Anna. I've missed your posts and hope you are doing well. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and all that...

Wow - thanks Anna. I totally missed this part of it.

Anna, here's the same story from the NY Post:

Kurt and Lori Haskell, both bankruptcy lawyers, told the Daily News they saw a sharply dressed Indian man in his 50s - who did not get on the flight - trying to talk an Amsterdam gate agent into letting the suspect board Northwest Airlines Flight 253 without his passport.
"He said, 'He needs to get on this plane, but he doesn't have a passport.' The ticket-taker said something like, 'You can't board without a passport.' The Indian man said, 'He is from Sudan, we do this all the time,'" said Lori Haskell.
"He was dressed all kind of poor," she said, while the Indian man was wearing a "more expensive suit than we would wear to court."
The Haskells, who were returning to Newport, Mich., from a safari in Uganda, said the passengers were held in the Detroit airport for six hours. While waiting, they say, they saw a different Indian man taken away in handcuffs after a bomb-sniffing dog was alerted to his carry-on bag. [NYP]

I live in Michigan, and was watching the local news yesterday when I heard this story. The one thing that I noticed about this was that Haskell consistently nationality/race to distinguish and identify the two men. He always referred to the two as "The Indian Man" and "The Black Man", even though by the time of the broadcast, the name of the terrorist, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab was very well known. Haskell could have used many descriptors, especially for Abdulmutallab, such as "The Terrorist" and if he has believed the "Indian" man, Haskell could have also used "The Sudanese Man". As for the "Indian" man, he could have said "The Well Dressed Man" or, as we all agree "The South Asian Man". Regardless of what Haskell could have said, I found that the way he put it was very narrow-minded, especially in that he used only the nationality/race to separate the two men.

about not using terms signifying national origin as ethnic descriptors.

You can't just suddenly fiat that Greek, Indian, English, or Spanish mean only national identity, and not also ethnicity (and, in the case of three of the four, language). English doesn't work by your fiat.

about not using terms signifying national origin as ethnic descriptors.

You can't just suddenly fiat that Greek, Indian, English, or Spanish mean only national identity, and not also ethnicity (and, in the case of three of the four, language). English doesn't work by your fiat.

he can't be indian. doctors and engineers don't dress that well

Help. I help everybody. Wrong place, wrong time, if the story is right.
My nanaji dresses in 3 piece everyday,helps everybody.
Big reaction over something that has happened many times before.

People here think Pakistan/Afghanistan/Iraq all look the same (and they say a as in cat, not a as in car). India is the snappy dresser.

I mean if I was in shock I would say chinese for asian. african american for all black people. Mexican for all Spanish/Portuguese speaking people. White for a person who could be from america/canada/ uk/france/ germany.... not italy though, I'd know an italian :)

Granted shock wears off after a while, but the person might be afraid of being called untrustwrthy if he switched his statement now.

OK, so what if the guy really turns out to be Indian?

Will Haskell get kudos for being on point?

I roll my eyes for many reasons, including the fact that racists and other assholes just see curry. Brown. Apu. Outsourcing. Perhaps now, Jay Sean.

I usually dont LOL, but I did LOL after reading this. Welcome back Anna!
BTW, I don't mind the Jay Sean Stereotype..I am all for it :)

"OK, so what if the guy really turns out to be Indian?"

If the man was Indian, it's highly unlikely that his motive was terrorism. Unless the Indian is an Islamic radical or terrorist. More likely, a Pakistani facilitating terror. The use of the term "Indian" was rash and irresponsible. Haskell should have qualified his statement. But that is probably asking too much of a huge section of the American public. This is 2009 going on 2010, and there still far too many Americans who are ignorant, and who cannot differentiate between one group of people and another. Nor qualify their observations by saying something like "The individual looked Indian ethnically, however he could easily be from Pakistan, from where many terrorists emerge".

Pocobrat- The character Max actually is Indian. The character's full name is Max Patel and he's played by Dileep Rao.

The bad guy here is Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, not Kurt Haskell.

The use of the term "Indian" was rash and irresponsible. Haskell should have qualified his statement. But that is probably asking too much of a huge section of the American public. This is 2009 going on 2010, and there still far too many Americans who are ignorant, and who cannot differentiate between one group of people and another.

Which country and culture in the world contains common folk who can successfully differentiate between one group of people and another?

Even if they can't differentiate between two groups of similar looking people( Indian Punjabis vs Pakistani Punjabis for example), they can at least make a qualifying statement. By now, it should be well known that Pakistan is the biggest terrorist state and source of terrorists on the planet. So the chances of a terrorist supporter or facilitator being Pakistani as opposed to Indian, is very high. Remember that Haskell is no rustic bumpkin; he's a lawyer and an educated person.

This story sounds rather strange, the last liquid bomb story is even stranger.

Thanks for this post Anna - I had the same "wtf" reaction to the mention of an "Indian" man going unquestioned by the interviewer. Yeah, it is possible the man was Indian - but for Kurt Haskell to make that assumption and for the interviewer to not question/correct it even once really irks me. I saw an ABC interview that went along the same lines - where the other person's claimed identity went unquestioned.

A rather naive question: can the contributors to Sepia Mutiny contact NPR and/or ABC about this? I suppose if such questions don't get asked, the larger media will not care to correct their reports.

Ok, so here's the thing...

What throws me off with the emphasis on new security enhancements is that it obscures the real idiocy that occurred-Someone w/o a passport and on the terrorist watchlist who was ratted out by his own father, was allowed to board an aircraft. And not in some ramshackle third world airport in the middle of the desert but in Amsterdam!

But instead of faulting the government for not doing its job, the media is entertaining the concept of profiling again...

"If the man was Indian, it's highly unlikely that his motive was terrorism. Unless the Indian is an Islamic radical or terrorist. More likely, a Pakistani facilitating terror. The use of the term "Indian" was rash and irresponsible."

Wait-- what? Indians can't be terrorists? Does that mean white guys can't be terrorists either. It is only those crazy Muselmans, right?

How is using term "Indian" irresponsible. This is an eyewitness trying to best describe what he saw. We all know that eye-witnesses are not very reliable. If I am being mugged and I say I am thinking it was a black man because I caught a glimpse but I was not sure, is that being irresponsible too? Or maybe even if I am saying it was a man and not a woman. I mean, I did not go looking down his shirt.

I think many are over-reacting to this. The man is obviously trying to state what he say as eye-witness. I'm sure he is not out to finger the whole Indian people and also I am sure that an Indian is just as capable of being terrorist or criminal as any other person in the world.

wtf is up with the censoring?

An indian guy (or a guy who looks like the stereotypical indian) was arrested after the plane landed in Detroit. This according to a report by a Huffington Post blogger who was on the plane:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roey-rosenblith/over-detroit-skies_b_404255.html

Apparently the indian arrested in Detroit was different from the one in Amsterdam:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/12/28/2009-12-28_did_he_board_without_a_passport.html

"Kurt and Lori Haskell, both bankruptcy lawyers, told the Daily News they saw a sharply dressed Indian man in his 50s - who did not get on the flight - trying to talk an Amsterdam gate agent into letting the suspect board Northwest Airlines Flight 253 without his passport......

The Haskells, who were returning to Newport, Mich., from a safari in Uganda, said the passengers were held in the Detroit airport for six hours. While waiting, they say, they saw a different Indian man taken away in handcuffs after a bomb-sniffing dog was" alerted to his carry-on bag.

"Wait-- what? Indians can't be terrorists? Does that mean white guys can't be terrorists either. It is only those crazy Muselmans, right?"

Let's not get too theoretical here. We are talking about an environment in which airplanes are threatened with being blown up. Al Qaeda, the Taliban and various other Islamic radical/terrorist groups are *far and away* the major suspects. Pakistan is the principal source or supporter of these terrorists, as any Indians( in fact, anyone period) should know by now.

This is not a time to start getting abstract about the possibility of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad being a suspect in the attempted bombing. What would the motive be, the goal? Yes, I'm sure the VHP can dig up some grievance against the US too. But blowing up an airplane? No.

Plenty of people can't tell the difference among South Asia, Middle Eastern, and sometimes even Latin American peoples. We brown people kinda look the same to certain folk.

I am more mad at the fact that a Indian guy was put in handcuffs just because he was brown. That could have been any one of you, except for the Indians with a yogurt like skin color, you guys are all clear.

Indians are always screwed when it comes to dogs. The smell of spice can be detected by the human nose, let alone one that could smell a Patel Bros. that is 3 miles away.

I'll take a look to the

"This is not a time to start getting abstract about the possibility of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad being a suspect in the attempted bombing. What would the motive be, the goal?"

I'm sorry, I forgot there is not religion but Hinduism in India.

Adding: Obviously since the attempted suicide bomber is a muslem, then it is likely that person could also be from same group helping him. This person could be Indian. It is not so automatic that Indian man will be Hindu. Also he could be Indian man living in Africa or from so many other places. Or maybe he could be Pakistani or Middle Eastern or who knows what.

I am just saying it is silly to attack these eyewitnesses for saying it was an "Indian". Why is it assumed everyone have malice in their words? They are just describing the scene they saw to the best of their abilities. If you saw this scene, as they did, what would you say? "I saw a brown man with black straight hair who was well dressed and could be from India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Jordan, West Bank, Syria, Yemen, or [more and more list]." It is easier to describe person with quick description. In this case, the person looked typically Indian to them. How many times in your life will you say "I saw this Indian aunty in the airport with a sweet little baby" or something like that. Will someone start questioning you "How do you know she is Indian. Maybe she could be Pakistani, or Sri Lankan or Nepali??? Did you know for sure Aunty is Indian?" No, you will say "how sweet". That will be the end of the conversation.

You are only upset because this "Indian" is making you feel bad. But not all Indians are good people. Some are criminals, gangstars, paedeophile, or terrorists. Maybe he was Indian, maybe not. But why be so angry for this only?

euro wrote:

English doesn't work by your fiat.

Perhaps we'll grant you license to abuse the tongue when that doesn't have any consequences. At other times, such as here, stick to a simple rule: unless you've checked someone's passport and know he's Indian, don't use the term.

The question is not whether the term 'South Asian' is more appropriate - that term certainly has its uses, but not in the context of describing someone's appearance.

When describing someone's appearance, use unambiguous terms of description - brown skinned, straight hair, six feet tall, whatever. Don't use shorthand that can be misunderstood, or be misleading if not be altogether wrong.

This is so elementary that I spell it out only because, clearly, you're neither a master of the language nor of logic.

Why is it assumed everyone have malice in their words?

See here

where it is discussed how not felling left out in our youth creates how we view things in our adulthood.

Anyway, what I find amusing is how we accept and tolerate racist and/or prejudiced comments from our Desi relatives regarding non-Desis, or even Desis from other regions, religions and castes, but when someone non-Desi so much as generalizes a "South Asian" --- it's considered no-holds-barred assholery.

Someone explain?

where it is discussed how not felling left out in our youth creates how we view things in our adulthood.

Should read:

where it is discussed how feeling left out in our youth creates how we view things in our adulthood.

OR

where it is discussed how not feeling accepted in our youth creates how we view things in our adulthood.

"When describing someone's appearance, use unambiguous terms of description - brown skinned, straight hair, six feet tall, whatever. Don't use shorthand that can be misunderstood, or be misleading if not be altogether wrong."

This pure example of over "P.C." I bet many of you same people boast you can tell what is natal place of someone by their looks or some other such thing. Maybe you look at a picture and guess "This is Ethiopian, not Kenyan" or some other thing. So these people are guessing he is Indian. Eye-witness is guess. It is just observations. When I am in airport I look at people and automatically my mind will make ideas as to who they are-- "this looks like dada-dadi coming to U.S. to visit son" "that looks like Japanese tourists who are headed home" "This little girl is looking sooo much like my best friend when she was that age-- is she from my place?" This is a natural way for the brain to work, what is so wrong of that? It is not like now they will go out and arrest all Indians because of this eye witness-- no they will look for this man who matches description they saw from this situation. Maybe eyewitness account will be wrong anyways, but they observed this and came forward with their best idea-- shouldn't we be happy they have come forward to share this information, rather then scream at them for their description. If these eyewitness people were Indians saying they say a "French man" doing this thing, or saying "a Nepali" would you also be up in arms? This is my question to you. Please think about it. Please think-- are you feeling upset because this bad man who might be Indian will make you feel bad (to be connected to this man by country or ethnic group)? Would you really be saying differently in the same situation?

It is funny how so many here are getting their panties in a twist just because witnesses (more than one) in this case described someone as "indian". Just because there are some ignoramuses in America who think Obama or the punjabi guy at the gas station is an arab, doesn't change the fact that there is such a thing as an "indian color, phenotype, accent and behavior" which anyone with a clue can use to correctly identify persons from the Indian Subcontinent. These witnesses are all well traveled and can be expected to recognize the race of the individuals in question correctly.

NPR addressed this issue on today's (December 29) "All Things Considered" during the letters segment. Robert Siegel read a thoughtful letter (from a South Asian man) decrying this sort of racial profiling:

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=122018484&m=122018473

there is such a thing as an "indian color, phenotype, accent and behavior" which anyone with a clue can use to correctly identify persons from the Indian Subcontinent.

Exactly. Hence my point above (comment number 1) regarding the head shake thingy.

48 · Non-euro At other times, such as here, stick to a simple rule: unless you've checked someone's passport and know he's Indian, don't use the term.

OK, that is so ridiculous that it's self-deconstructing. Indian means so much more than just the for diplomatic and tax purposes nationality of the 60-year old Republic of India (not that the latter in unimportant!). Nobody is going to follow your silly prescriptive grammar other than you and maybe a few score weird friends. Honestly, I'm not even sure what weird ideological box to put you in--maybe Absurditarian?

My fellow commentors seem to be missing the OBVIOUS:

Being an attorney and all, I would assume that this guy Haskelll would know more than anyone else the liability incurred while assigning a NATIONALITY to the supposed terrorists, not once but twice .

He seems to be absolutely sure that the guy who supposedly assisted the terrorist and then again got picked up with a bomb (wow, so far he seems to be the only one claiming to have seen any such incident). I mean, he does not even have any doubt if the person(s0 are of any other south asian descent. Indian, it has to be.

Well, I have to tell you, this Haskell sure seems to be one totally worldly and sharp-eyed Amru. I know as a desi from India, I sure cannot tell between an Indian, Pakistani, Srilankan, etc etc. Heck I have been mistaken for a Hispanic guy several times by people of hispanic origin themselves. So there.

So, the question then is, does this Haskell guy have some personal hatred for Indians from INDIA? is he simply using this to spread some hatred against Indians? Did his son, newly graduated with a degree in CS, say, ended up moving back with him because the son could not find a job as all the jobs are being taken by Indians? Did some legal outsourcing cut into some of his document review work?

Who knows?

Still, got to love the way a comment, left on a blog page, becomes verified, corroborated NEWS. Looks like this Haskell went home and started working on the story after he realized the possibilities. How can we protect this country effectively when people like him are using serious incidents like this to advance their personal hatred, a hatred he perhaps cannot release in any other manner because of the anti-hate laws?

Being an attorney and all, I would assume that this guy Haskelll would know more than anyone else the liability incurred while assigning a NATIONALITY to the supposed terrorists, not once but twice .

Good satire, first because there is no liability for falsely assigning a nationality (good on you Anglos for enshrining free speech) and second because "Indian" does not just mean a nationality in the English language (it also encompasses, however crudely--it is being compared at this broad level to, for example, Central Asian or South-East Asian groups) but also an ethnic/cultural grouping.

Dear Maya:

Let's say Haskell succeeds and getting the word 'Indian' synonymous with 'terrorist helper', thanks to his many interviews, and Indians come under a nice watchful eye of the Masters (Haskells). Every time you open your samosa, it brings the bomb sniffing hounds out of the woodwork, and you have to justify to armed crowds why the samosa is just a snack..

Let's say, one of those days, when you (as in you, Maya) are asked for your papers (assuming you are of south asian descent), and pulled off for questioning by the friends of Haskells, just as you are rushing to catch a flight, train, cab, etc etc. Let's say some cop makes a comment like "Oh she's from India, apparently. That's one country which has been under islamo-terrorist attacks for a while, so let's give her some benefit of doubt and not pre-suppose that she could be a terrorist thoguth she has the same brown skin.."

Then, you know what you should do? You know, right?

You should get all annoyed at the cop and say, "Wait-- what? Indians can't be terrorists? Does that mean white guys can't be terrorists either. It is only those crazy Muselmans, right?"

and follow it up with "I, maya, forbid you from letting me go! I can be a terrorist too! I demand to be taken to Gitmo!".

Please do so then, will you? After all, The Haskell types are never wrong, per many commentors here including you.

PS. one advice: please try not to be more jewish than the rabbi.

"second because "Indian" does not just mean a nationality in the English language (it also encompasses, however crudely--it is being compared at this broad level to, for example, Central Asian or South-East Asian groups) but also an ethnic/cultural grouping."

Euro,

going overboard trying to defend/justify Haskell, aren't we here? What's the matter?

Last I checked, 'Indian' companies did not quite mean 'Central Asian or South-East Asian' etc, the same for people.

PS: same advice: please try not to be more jewish than the rabbi.

Come on people, it's not that big of a deal. He probably works with, lives near to, or has Indian friends or possible in-laws and is thus clued in on generally tendencies of Indian looks and behaviours. Based on his personal experience with Indians, he took an educated guess.

If he's wrong, it will come out in the wash.

If he's right, we all look like fools here debating this.

Oruvan, i think you are giving satire, yes? In my natal country (Belgium--I work in London now) the Hindu immigrants are giving good informations on how to restrict immigrations from the Muslim peoples--the Hindus are not a problem--they are integrating well and we like them.

Reality Check, wrote:

"It is funny how so many here are getting their panties in a twist just because witnesses (more than one) in this case described someone as "indian". "

>> what's so funny? India is a country that has suffered much from terrorism. People, esp from India, do not like some idiot using the specific 'Indian' term to describe terrorists unless he is sure and with proof.

"These witnesses are all well traveled and can be expected to recognize the race of the individuals in question correctly."

>> Really? How do you know? Have you met the Haskells? Do you know them personally? and except for that one mention of an African Safari, how do you know they are well traveled and can be counted on to distinguish between various nationalities in SE asia by looks alone?

>> I ask you this because you apparently had no problems assuming the worst about people who took offense at the Haskells' comments, although you have not met those people either.

>> I guess I will never understand why some people in this board just fall all over themselves trying to justify every action of anyone with an Anglo name.

euro wrote:
"Oruvan, i think you are giving satire, yes? In my natal country (Belgium--I work in London now) the Hindu immigrants are giving good informations on how to restrict immigrations from the Muslim peoples--the Hindus are not a problem--they are integrating well and we like them."

>> Oh Than you Sir! Thank you veyr much Sir! I am soo happy you like us Sir! My life's goal is fulfilled now Sir! Shall I wash your feet now Sir? May I garland you with fragrant flowers now Sir?

Is that what you wanted, euro? Nice job trying to pose as a Belgian or whatever, and the suddenly suspect grammar. Let's end it for today, shall we? Sheesh.

AVATAR wrote:

"Come on people, it's not that big of a deal. He probably works with, lives near to, or has Indian friends or possible in-laws and is thus clued in on generally tendencies of Indian looks and behaviours. Based on his personal experience with Indians, he took an educated guess."

>> Oh. My. God. The extent some people will go to justify the Haskells. Really, what is it? What makes desis sooo.. fawning?

PS: same advice: please try not to be more jewish than the rabbi.

Oruvan, who or what are you? Why are you hiding your facts but judging me? I am a European, and I am telling you what I think of the characterization of this guy as "Indian." It's "OK" in the English I learned as a second language, and not meant as any more than it would be offensive to call some guy I hear talking German in London a "German" even if he is from Austria or Switzerland (or even in my country of Belgium you have a few native German speakers). You have failed radically to convince me otherwise. Sorry if it offends you that we do make distinctions between Indians we like (most of them), and Indians we are suspicious of (Muslims, especially the British Pakistani type) even if some of them are "OK."

Being an attorney and all

How did an illogical, over-emotional bloke like you become an attorney? You are lying right?

You keep ranting against the Haskells ignoring the fact that they were not the only ones to mention seeing indian (as in race/ethnicity). You also stupidly assume that all indians are non-muslims, and that only "musselmans" can be terrorists. Heard of the Tamil Tigers, the original suicide bombers?

it is ridiculous. Even if we were to consider Haskells' story, so far he is the only person, other than his wife, to have even reported anything like this. Maybe he has the singular bad fortune of being next to terrorist 'Indians' always?

Every false lead, and more so for deliberate false lead, wastes valuable time and resources required for keeping this country safe. If the Haskell is so concerned, he should have gone to authorities with the story, and giving them the 'facts' not his possibly prejudiced opinions, and also not seek his 15 min fame deriding 'Indians' on every two-bit newspaper site and TV station. I would believe that the authorities have a better shot at putting together a better picture of this supposed helper than this Haskell guy has.

yes, reality check--tamil tiger people are a big problem in London--not so much in Belgium, luckily.

wastes valuable time and resources required for keeping this country safe

Sorry to be so scientific and statistical, but we would do much better to check the Muslim boys in their 20's and 30's (of whatever race or nationality). To be otherwise is to be anti-progress/European/Science. Sorry to Communists/Islamists.

oops. misplaced sentence fragment, I meant Haskell being an attorney. Btw, reality, no need to get all twisted up for it. Still waiting for your answers to my questions, guess I will never have them.

yeah there are tigers and the like, but they are not from India. also In this scenario, do they have a motive for helping this guy against the uSA? Use some logic dude.

end of discussion. cant really argue with the haskell fanclub here.

yeah there are tigers and the like, but they are not from India. also In this scenario, do they have a motive for helping this guy against the uSA? Use some logic dude.

Well, I don't know about USA, but we Euros have little incentive to cooperate with India while India is coddling Islamists (which India is, ind of like Yemen). Look for more restrictions on India-EU flights, not fewer.

euro = rob messing around.

"but we Euros have little incentive to cooperate with India while **India is coddling Islamists (which India is, ind of like Yemen)**. Look for more restrictions on India-EU flights, not fewer."

>> look euro, you are entitled to your opinion, but India is not coddling anyone, having long suffered from Islamic terrorism. Comparing India to Yemen shows your lack of knowledge in this matter, but hey, that's your opinion. As for your India-EU flights, when there are enough economic reasons, EU will have enough flights going to India and wherever else, that's EU afterall. Let's also not forget that many terrorists seem to get indoctrinated in EU, even the ones who sometimes mount attacks against India, so let's not really get into who is coddling who.

India also has a large muslim population, who were quite born in india, and who are also very much loyal Indians. If having them live in their country of birth is what you consider 'coddling', yeah. There are extremists, and INdia is trying, with a fair bit of success, to deal with them. As a race/nation, Indians and India are not exactly used to internment camps and racial profiling etc. India will manage its affairs the way they can, and you can manage your affairs the way you want. if India wants belgium's advice in this matter, I am sure India will ask for it, with congo providing references.

>euro = rob messing around.

looks like it, but let's humor him anyway.

Oruvan, OK, but I don't endorse any of Belgium's history in Congo It was bad and wrong. Ask any Muslim about their engagement in India--they will tell you it's OK b/c they were dealing with primitive idol-worshipers. So the difference between a Euro and a Muslim is huge, on the intellectual side. Euros are open to liberal peoples-Hindus/Sikhs are OK--hell, so are reasonable Muslims. Look at EU immigration figures for 2009--we are learning our lessons.

Ask any Muslim about their engagement in India--they will tell you it's OK b/c they were dealing with primitive idol-worshipers.

interesting assertion. have you, rob?

what is your opinion about reparations for the harms caused to african american slaves even more recently than the muslim engagement? or is mere lip service an adequate expression of regret?

also what is your take on something more recent, and in a supposedly more civilized society and time than the centuries old grudges you hold - the 2002 gujarat pogrom? what conclusion should i draw about "liberal peoples" based on the unapologetic view several of those peoples hold about that engagement?

and as an aside, how do the brits, the people in your supposed work place, view their engagement in india?

yeah there are tigers and the like, but they are not from India.

The tamil tiger terrorists, who introduced suicide bombing, are ethnic indians from the Indian subcontinent. You are stupidly obsessing over indian as a nationality and getting all confused. There are people of indian ethnicity all over the world carrying passports from numerous nations.

That's a fair point about former slaves getting reparations in the "New World"--yeah, why not?
I'm not trying to sterilize Euro-historical involvement in Asia. I'm saying we have to be careful of too much immigration by groups that don't like us--why take them in? I'm with Denmark about limiting marriage-->immigration. If you don't like us, go back, don't bring in a spouse. This is getting weird--I was initially just interested in Indian people after watching Bend it Like Beckham--sorry.

FWIW, they ran a letter during today's show which echoes this post.

rob, you didnt answer a couple of the other questions in my comment. I am curious what opinion I should have of "liberal peoples".

Besides the tamil tigers of Sri Lanka and the Pakistani terrorists, there were also the khalistani terrorists from India who committed the worst terrorist act in Canada's history. So the indian subcontinent has produced terrorists from the hindu, muslim, sikh and christian communities (the tamil tigers included christians).

What interests me most is the quote
"the Indian man said, 'He is from Sudan, we do this all the time,"
Who is/are «WE»?
- There are no lawyers working at that part of the airport.
- Non travellers (like shop keepers) being there are only allowed after being checked by custom/security and must carry a clearly visible badge. So the Haskells should have noticed if the man was staff/official.

And on the "indian": Holland has largest community of ppl with roots in the former British Empire on mainland Europe. (that's why we hosted the 2005 IIFA Awards) So if there has been someone "indian" it might have been a Dutch citizen.

Euro, that bomber was most likely radicalized in BRITAIN http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34628317/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times

This is getting weird--I was initially just interested in Indian people after watching Bend it Like Beckham--sorry.

Euro as for your ignorance of terrorism in India, go look at this site and learn how much and for how long India has been the target of terrorism and been fighting it (far more than any European country): South Asia Terrorism Portal http://www.satp.org

Very few if any Europeans cared while it was just happening in places like India. Well some of those same terrorist groups are now targeting Europe.

He recalled seeing terror suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab escorted to the gate by a “well-dressed Indian man”, who tried to intervene on Abdulmutallab’s behalf and browbeat an airline employee in to overlooking the fact that the wanna-be martyr lacked a passport.

One thing, besides Haskell assuming that the brown person was "Indian," he doesn't know the motivation of this man who helped him board. Abdulmutallab's family is very wealthy and well educated. It could just as well be someone getting a rich kid on a plane. Class obnoxiousness more than terrorist network.

As of now you have 85-86 reasons to regret posting this.
You posted this because you just love attention.
The person who helped could very well be Indian, oh wait, he could also be from your home state.

By the way, in terms of the other post about the influential desi women where almost all happened to be Indian (and others were whining about at Taz), here is what one Indian has shown after reaching the top. (7% dip for pepsi vs 28% gain for coke).
Oh No, Pepsi shares are losing because of Indian and one billion Yindians.. oh noo..

"that's one country which has been under islamo-terrorist attacks for a while, so let's give her some benefit of doubt and not pre-suppose that she could be a terrorist thoguth she has the same brown skin.."

This would be a highly elevated sentiment, and one that should really should be widely expressed. Alas, it is not! The average( parochial, insular) American still has difficulty identifying India as a country that has suffered the *most* Islamist terrorism of any democracy on earth. It's only among a select, or correct me if I'm wrong, group of intellectuals and journalists where this fact is recognized.

Why are some posters getting down on this "Euro" guy? He's nice, he's pro Hindu and pro Indian, sympathetic to India's experience with terror, sees the difference between Indians and Pakistanis, and is not being racist toward Indians. So what if he's a little inaccurate about the ethnic composition of India. His India-and Indian-friendly remarks are to be appreciated and encouraged, not denigrated.

I said this thing yesterday, but I will repeat once more since I was asked this question:

I said I don't think that just because the Haskills reported this one man as Indian that the whole world will start fingering Indians across the globe. From things I have heard, there was much backlash against Sikhs and Indians in general after 9-11 because some of these bigoted people in the U.S. wanted to be bigoted against Arabs but did not know the difference-- they saw turban and though "Muselman" and all that.

My point is that these duffers will be duffers and find a reason to make certain peoples lives miserable, no? If someone wants to fine excuse to shoot down Sikhs they will do.

But you would think in the wake of this attempted bombing, whether people are so much focused on this possible "Indian" in airport, or maybe more focused on NIgerians? I mean, who commited this act, well-dressed possible Indian-man, or Nigerian young man? We all know the answer to this question. Nigerian young man. This "Indian" man is purely an eye-witness observation. No one even knows if he was involved. Maybe he was airport employee trying to help Nigerian man who he thought was Sudanese actually. Maybe he was part of the terrorist plot. We do not know and we will not know. But I bet if I go to my campus and ask my colleagues who are not Indians about this attack, they will say "It was a Nigeran" not "You are terrorist, and one of your people was helping him in the airport! Stay away from me!". (Let us also hope they will not say this to Nigerians. no?)

Yes, I understand people are feeling afraid because of possible backlash, but should that mean this Haskill person should change their observations to make us feel better? I am sure all the Nigerian people are feeling much more scared now about this than Indians. They are the ones who had young man trying to blow up his trousers. "Indian" man is pure speculation at this point, and I don't see anyone discussing it but Indians!

he's pro Hindu [...] and is not being racist toward Indians

i guess from your comment that other kinds of -ists are just a-ok by you.

Why are some posters getting down on this "Euro" guy? He's nice, he's pro Hindu and pro Indian,

euro is actually an indian pretending to be a belgian.

Euro stated: 'In my natal country (Belgium--I work in London now) the Hindu immigrants are giving good informations on how to restrict immigrations from the Muslim peoples'

Euro: You might want to ask those 'Hindu immigrants' about their views on whether Hitler was a strong leader and good for his country.

actually indian american. usual handle is rob.

Indians should trust their instincts when people like "Euro" appear. The guy is pro-Hindu, and that should at least cause Indians to be sympathetic. There are very few pro-Hindu voices in the media, and among non-Indians( I'm assuming he's non-Indian) . Usually Indians and Hindus are subjected to pompous, condescending, arrogant stuff from the likes of Martha Nussbaum, Paul Brass and the NY Times editorial board. When someone departs from this pernicious behaviour, Indians should applaud them.

The guy is pro-Hindu, and that should at least cause Indians to be sympathetic

why is anti-muslim immediately a cause for indians to be simpatico? and what does pro hindu mean? also you should read nussbaum before having an opinion on her.

" why is anti-muslim immediately a cause for indians to be simpatico? and what does pro hindu mean"

There is undoubtedly a serious global problem with Islamic terrorism, and India has suffered the most among all the democracies. So until that threat fades, there is no sense in letting one's guard down. The Europeans, including Belgians, are worried about the import of Islamic terrorism and fundamentalism into their own countries, and India is unfortunately one of the sources, though nowhere near as bad as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.

Martha Nussbaum and Paul Brass never say anything about the persecution of Hindu minorities in Pakistan, Bangladesh or the Indian state of Kashmir. All their 'research' has to do with maligning Hindus, particularly those of the Hindutva persuasion.

All their 'research' has to do with maligning Hindus, particularly those of the Hindutva persuasion.

hindutva is not equivalent to hindu. as islamic terrorists are not equivalent to muslims.

"hindutva is not equivalent to hindu. as islamic terrorists are not equivalent to muslims."

And Hindutva is positively not equivalent to Islamic terror. You can vote those parties into power, and vote them out if you don't want them in office anymore. There is also no global threat of Hindutva groups blowing up airplanes, or hijacking fishing boats, landing on foreign shores, and massacring people in hotels, clubs and restaurants. Hindutva blends in with secular, democratic laws; it does not seek to subvert or counter them with its own version of Sharia( the Manusmriti?) . No country outside of India, is the least bit concerned about the activities of these Hindu groups on their soil, as far as violence, dogmatism, archaic laws, position of women, opposition to democracy and secularism goes. It's pure slander to equate the Hindutva organisations with Al Qaeda, the Taliban or the Lashkar-E-Toiba.

And Hindutva is positively not equivalent to Islamic terror.

who said it is? dont get your chuddies in a bunch. but you still didnt address the central contention: "hindutva is not equivalent to hindu. as islamic terrorists are not equivalent to muslims."

. There is also no global threat of Hindutva groups blowing up airplanes, or hijacking fishing boats, landing on foreign shores, and massacring people in hotels, clubs and restaurants.

no only intra country in india, that's right.

Hindutva blends in with secular, democratic laws;

no it doesn't.

I am agreeing with Xeno on this one-- Hindutva may not be global, but certainly is doing many many bad things inside of India. It does want to impose it's hard-line view of Hinduism on India, and it wants Hindu state. This state would have no room for minorities in India.. Hindutva types are the ones saying all da Muselman should go to Pakistan where they belong and all that. The Hindutva is like the Hilter of India-- they want to wipe anyone but the pure Hindus out.

Maya,

You seem really misinformed about what 'hindutva' is.. Establishing India as a "hindu' state does not mean that there would be no room for minorities or that they want to 'wipe' them all out.. What they really want is to establish India as a hindu version of Pakistan or Bangladesh with respect to the role of religion in the workings of the State..

I am no fan of the movement, but if you are going to comment on them, at least try and learn what they are actually proposing.. And yes, they are nothing like Al Quaida or LET , but more like the mainstream Islamic organizations and political parties that exist.

You seem really misinformed about what 'hindutva' is.. Establishing India as a "hindu' state does not mean that there would be no room for minorities or that they want to 'wipe' them all out.. What they really want is to establish India as a hindu version of Pakistan or Bangladesh with respect to the role of religion in the workings of the State..

I am no fan of the movement, but if you are going to comment on them, at least try and learn what they are actually proposing.. And yes, they are nothing like Al Quaida or LET , but more like the mainstream Islamic organizations and political parties that exist.

The problem is groups like al qaeda aren't exactly out of the mainstream in nations where the state is intertwined with islam. Many beliefs associated with radical islam, like say Israel being responsible for 911, are to the non-Islamic mind radical, but in the context of Islamic states actually mainstream, as various pols have demonstrated.. thus the relationship between Pakistan, her religious parties, and al quaeda is somewhat analogous to the relationship between the US, Dixiecrat's, and the KKK. The latter group may be considered extreme, but its just a product of the racism within the larger community, one enabled by mainstream politicians...indeed the KKK itself was once considered a mainstream organization, playing a role in US politics somewhat analogous to that of hezbollah (a mix of right-wing terroism and progressive politics).

Hindus are misguided to use these asshats as models.

Since I have not been in U.S. too long, I am still often feeling shocked at the amount of Hindus in U.S. who are supporting the Hindutva people. In India sure there are some, but most people steer clear of this thing as they know it is not good. There is Hindutva type political group on campus in India, but also many other groups. These Hindutva type's do not have good intentions in mind. Maybe if you are in U.S. too long, you are feeling that you are missing this Hindu part of life, and so go to extreme right and join this groups. But you are isolated from this group and it's talk on the ground. This group is not just "pro" Hindu but very hateful towards all the other peoples of India. I am some very good friends from my graduation days who are Muselman, and in these Hindutva minds these friends of mine are not deserving of Indian citizenship even when they grew up beside me, go to same schools and have same love of the country India. The Hindutwa will tell them to go to Pakistan, and that this is not their country. This is just wrong and hateful. Hindutva wanna wipe out all the other cultural groups in our country and wipe out all da cultural contributions from non-Hindus in the nation. They want to make state like Taliban in Afghanistan-- wipe out and ignore anything but the religion they prescribe.

Don't get me wrong, Hinduism is a great religion and I am proud of it-- but we don't have one book or one way to live-- it is open for people to do puja as they see fit. This Hindutva crowd wants to wipe this out of Hinduism and try to make us follow their rules. This is not what Hinduism is and is putting bad name on Hinduism.

Maya et al, Hindutva at most seeks a primacy for Sanskrit, the Vedas, the epics, and the pre-Moslem, pre-Christian history of India. It asks that all Indians accept this position as well. Someone like a Kalam( former president) or a Yesudas( Christian, who sings Hindu devotional music) is highly regarded among the Hindutva group( and non-Hindutva as well) , and neither of those figures has been compelled to give up their religion. Lots of Indian Hindus, not just supporters of Hindutva, think that Islamic invasions and rule were atrocious. And by all accounts, it was.

Your accusation of the Hindutva people wanting to make India like the Taliban is simply false. The Taliban has banned music, movies, painting, women working outside the home, the very expression of other religions. Again, you can vote in, or vote out, the BJP or any other Hindu organisation.

Moslem separatism and terrorism is a serious problem in India today, and it is with that background that a few aggressive Hindus demand that some or most Moslems 'go to Pakistan'. It's not right to do that, but look at India's current environment and history. You are going to to have people expressing those sentiments. Let the US go through what India has been, then see the result.

Maya,

I am not a supporter of hindutva, and I'm sure there are people in the movement who are bigots as you describe, but I think the comparisions to Hitler are overblown. They really are much closer to the muslim league of the pre-independance era or many other political groups in islamic countries than the Nazis.. You honestly believe that the hindu nationalist parties are actively planning on 'wiping out' the 200 million non-hindus from India ? Or that they could even attempt such a thing even if they wanted to ? Describing hindutva in such hyperbolic terms doesn't do much to actually tackle the issues that create these movements or understand where they get their support.

Going back to the article, I think Haskell's insistence that the guy was Indian is a little suspect, as there's no way he could have been certain of the nationality.. In any case, I understand that the authoriites are confirming that the terrorist did have a passport and visa, which makes the entire account a little curious, especially as no airline is going to let anyone board an international flight without a passport.

he very expression of other religions

what is terrorizing minorities by vhp. bajrang dal etc.? and not just evil muslim minorities. (i know evil is a redundancy).

It asks that all Indians accept this position as well.

turn back the clock to a nativist hinduism for all. and tack on victorian morality due to their poor grasp of history. to create one narrow version of "hindu culture" for all

a few aggressive Hindus demand

ding. ding. ding. its a late entry but wehave a winner for understatement of the decade.

Everyone: thank you so much for keeping things civil-- Comcast flaked on me again, so I still have no internet at home and thus moderating is a challenge. If I can make one request though: can we please close the Hindutva portion of this discussion? Instead, I'd love to hear more about your own reactions to this story (some of you mentioned on FB that you were listening to ATC too, and that you, too, noticed this segment). If we could get back on-topic, I'd appreciate it. :) Thank you!

"Instead, I'd love to hear more about your own reactions to this story"

Aghast at the ignorance and lack of awareness that Americans, even educated ones like Haskell, display. There's also a possibility that Haskell feels a degree of hostility toward Indians( for whatever reason) so he dragged them into this issue, without a qualifying statement such as "The guy could have been Pakistani, if the intent was to bomb the airplane. Or an Indian Moslem radical" Just leaving it open-ended strikes you as irresponsible or motivated- I hope not the latter.

here's also a possibility that Haskell feels a degree of hostility toward Indians( for whatever reason) so he dragged them into this issue, without a qualifying statement such as "The guy could have been Pakistani, if the intent was to bomb the airplane. Or an Indian Moslem radical"

it's good thing you have no hostility to anybody :)

ANNA, my apology. Did not see your request until I sent comment and refreshed page. Please delete if you would like. Thank you.

~Maya

As a Pakistani Canadian reading posts on sepiamutiny, it makes me really sad to see all the anti pakistan and anti muslim comments. Being pro- hindu doesn't mean being anti- muslim (well, I'm Muslim, so I'm sure I'm biased). Yes there have been people from Pakistan that have been terrorists, and there have been people who call themselves muslim who have been terrorists but that doesn't mean you have to be prejudiced against all muslims. The majority of us haven't done anything wrong and hate being racially profiled as much as the rest of the you. It's not like if you're from Pakistan, you deserve to be racially profiled as opposed to being Indian. They should improved their screening at airports, and like the news outlets have said, Umar really should have been caught earlier. Racial profiling because of skin color doesn't help anyone, especially as most of you have noted, many people could pass as being from many different countries. Also, obviously totally agree that the word "Indian" should not have used if they did not know what country he was from.

It's not like if you're from Pakistan, you deserve to be racially profiled as opposed to being Indian.

not in varun's or euro's rob's books. you are guilty until proven innocent.

@ Maya #102:
"Don't get me wrong, Hinduism is a great religion and I am proud of it-- but we don't have one book or one way to live-- it is open for people to do puja as they see fit. This Hindutva crowd wants to wipe this out of Hinduism and try to make us follow their rules. This is not what Hinduism is and is putting bad name on Hinduism."

This is a remark I agree with very much. Hinduism is about acceptance (sanathan dharma), let not the Hindutvadis claim it to be something else. At the same time, 4 am loudspeaker namaz everyday is not something that is very secular, so the muselmans also need to learn some courtesy and tolerance.

I'm going to have to agree with Oruvan's comment (#56) regarding Haskell's use of the word "Indian".
Based on my experiences, I haven't met very many Americans who can tell the difference between Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Sri Lankans. Therefore, it's entirely possible that Haskell is using this incident as an opportunity to vent some sort of anti-Indian screed (after all, outsourcing continues to be a major issue for many American workers).

That being said, I wouldn't have felt any better if he had said "Middle Easterner" or "South Asian" instead, since Hindus can also be the targets of anti-Arab or anti-Muslim prejudice.

Jodha at Langar Hall has an interesting take on this issue:

it reminds me of the Sikhs' approach post-9/11. There were many that immediately tried to disassociate themselves from Muslims and screamed, "We are not the enemy." Of course, implicit in this was the argument that "Muslims are the enemy." Then later as cooler minds prevailed, in an amazing moment which I still take great pride, Sikhs left behind such divisive discourse and changed their call to "We are all Americans."

"At the same time, 4 am loudspeaker namaz everyday is not something that is very secular, so the muselmans also need to learn some courtesy and tolerance."

Hahaha! This is true.. but also in my natal place a temple near by is always blasting loud kirtan from before sunrise... once some families request they not play since their children where studies for exams and they got upset and refused, saying it is God's blessings, so they should enjoy this and it will give blessing to their children for exams!

I'm saying this not as a brown guy or as an Indian, but as a tax-payer annoyed by yet more ineffective non-solutions from the TSA and State Department. All that has happened so far is this:

1. Someone who should have been on a no-fly list was issued a visa, while my DBD friends (IITians included) have been denied or delayed their visas because "Ooh! You know technology! Who's to say you won't use it against me?". It's gratifying to see the State Department live up to its stereotyped reputation as a group of supine incompetents who could not recognize technology if it rickrolled them.

2. Someone carrying explosives who slipped through an airport that was not under the TSA's remit has now, for reasons unknown, provoked the TSA into deploying its pointy object police in full force against US-based pen-wielders and shampoo-users and making everyone scared of laps, laptops, pillows, and pillow-humpers. That's the TSA, traffickers in irrational and disproportionate misresponses, and experts in closing the barn door since 2001.

3. The disquieting part is that instead of demanding greater (some, any) accountability, we're not only giving credence to some delusional dipshit who claims to have seen someone fly internationally without a passport (!), we're also arguing about his geographical expertise in distinguishing Indians from Pakistanis. Why?

"pillow-humpers"

Can you please explain this?

cio - you noticed the "anti pakistan and anti muslim" comments but not the scores of comments severely criticizing those offending comments? at least on an indian run forum there are many who will take on those unfairly targetting islam and pakistan, but were one to go to a pakistani or muslim run forum, the utterly irrational type of hindu/india/jew/israel/america bashing that goes on there makes me ashamed to be from pakistan.

cio - i refer you, among others to comment number 109; if you socialize amongst pakistanis, you would have a really, really tough time finding someone expressing such opinions about hindus. such as how much the hindu culture contributed to not only south asian islam but even islam beyond.

I wrote:

Hindus can also be the targets of anti-Arab or anti-Muslim prejudice.

I probably should elaborate on this. According to CNN, a Hindu temple in Matawan, NJ was firebombed during the week after 9/11.

Should we really be paying attention to the comments by Haskell ? I find it very hard to believe that a person could just board a flight without a passport.. Haskell is also being interviewed by Alex Jones who's a well known conspiracy theorist, and who is building this whole bomb plot up as a 'false flag' operation alleging that this "indian" guy was some kind of us govt agent .

Jay - you have a point. i remember that news reports did mention that he recieved a visa to enter america, where he had visited before [houston, i think]. and wouldn't travelling without a passport only increase scrutiny and more likely bring a pre mature ending to his plane downing wet dream.

Sam

Yeah, the whole story as recounted by Haskell seems a little fishy.. If he had a valid visa then there's no need for him to be at the gate without a passport, to arouse any sort of suspicion. Either there is some sort of govt conspiracy/cover up going on or more likely, someone is looking for their 15 mins of fame..

The nightly news today reported that he had a valid Nigerian passport with a U.S. Visa.

Jay - you have a point. i remember that news reports did mention that he recieved a visa to enter america, where he had visited before [houston, i think]. and wouldn't travelling without a passport only increase scrutiny and more likely bring a pre mature ending to his plane downing wet dream.Sam - Yeah, the whole story as recounted by Haskell seems a little fishy.. If he had a valid visa then there's no need for him to be at the gate without a passport, to arouse any sort of suspicion. Either there is some sort of govt conspiracy/cover up going on or more likely, someone is looking for their 15 mins of fame..

Finally, 2 + 2 = 4 after 100 odd comments.

Haskell was probably smoking a lot of cannabis in Holland, and so is lot of commenter @ SM except Jay, pingpong and few others. Watch TV or read the newspaper.

1. In extreme rare cases (refugee, political asylum), you cannot do overseas air travel without passport and visa (even Canada wants passport or similar identification for Americans these days, no more driver's license only), airlines will never do it (boarding anyone without visa and passport), they get fined upwards of $20,000 per case. Only, the destination country (USA in this case) has to OK before at the highest levels. Even countries with no tourist visa arrangement require passport.

2. Umar had a visa to US, visa is in most cases (so that it cannot be transferred to someone else) is stamped on a passport. So visas and passport are joined at the hip. He had a multiple entry visa to USA for a while, and had visited US before.

3. Umar was never on "no fly" list, he was another watch list that has half a million names on it.

4. Even if Umar visa was to be revoked (if they had acted on his father's warning), how do you informed all the airlines, other than putting him on a "no fly" list. The only common list all the airlines and the US govt. share for US travel is the "no fly" list.

5. Terrorists (lone, or amateur, or belonging to a group) as a rule blend in, and do not bring attention to themselves which would get them apprehended before the act. Why would he try to travel without a passport, and bring attention to himself.

Who cares Haskell is babbling about an "Indian" or should have said "South Asian" instead? Sure, when nearly 300 poeple are boarded, they are some cases without visa and passport, attempting to board without success but I do not think it was Umar in this case. I can credit Haskell is confusing him to another African he had seen on Amsterdam airport.

Or maybe, it is a conspiracy with the Indian man as a US agent. Or was he a South Asian American secret agent......because there is no way a Nigerian can board a plane to US without passport and visa.

This is not a newspaper, it's a group blog. To me (call me a curmudgeon and call it a day), blogs are usually personal, not professional spaces. At our best, we discuss common issues and experiences and enjoy "Hey, it's not just me!"- moments with each other.

I was not on the plane. I did not see the "Indian" man, the terrorist or either of their passports. I was in my car, listening to NPR like a few million other people do, when I overheard this story and thought it was interesting enough to try and blog. I never asserted or insisted that this man lacked a passport; my post contains my own reaction to the possibility that he flew without a passport. My reaction was "WTF?" To those who think I'm "stupid" for disseminating "lies" (thanks for the emails!), I have to ask: was NPR (and everyone else) stupid for reporting it? Let's take the snide-factor down a few notches, shall we? It's exactly what I didn't miss about blogging here.

To those who have contributed great comments and useful links- thank you. To those who have wished me well or expressed happiness that I wrote-- I am not worthy of such sweetness and affection. Thank *you*, too. :)

"it's good thing you have no hostility to anybody :)"

It's simple common sense that an Indian, specifically an Indian Hindu( or Parsee, Jain, Christian, Jew) has no reason to blow up an American plane, or assist in that task. Whereas a Pakistani is likely to do that. Or perhaps an Islamic radical from India, belonging to Islamic terror groups like SIMI, the Indian Mujahadeen or the various Indian cells of Pakistani terror outfits like the Lashkar-E-Toiba, the Jash-E-Mohammed and the Harkat-Ul-Ansar.

Indian Hindus have no history, no ideology, no end-goal for destroying American or international passenger airplanes. If someone is making an accusation that an Indian could be involved in some way, there should be an explanation of sorts as to what the motive could be. Is the VHP upset with the US, because Narendra Modi was not allowed in the country, and hence blowing up an American airplane is their way of getting back at the US? Incidentally, this line of thinking is so ridiculous, I feel silly even mentioning it.

Hello there, I am from Sri Lanka living in Michigan. I was also thrown out of my chair when I saw on TV Haskell uttering the word “Indian” at least three times.

The problem is that without knowing for sure attaching a nationality or race to a terrorist who almost killed 253 or more is quiet different than saying “I assume that gold medal went to an Indian”. We saw this kind of ignorance lead to shoot and kill a Sikh man working in a gas station (I believed it was in Texas) just after 9-11 since he looked liked a Taliban. Then the London Police pumped several bullets in to the head and killed a Brazilian youth just after train bombing in London assuming he was a terrorist from Pakistan.

In my opinion Haskell gave a full story that he had created in his mind (true or false we do not know yet). Haskell depicted it as the Terrorist acted like a poorly dressed refugee and the dressed up man there to help the terrorist who were there without a passport to get on board.” But, it has already proved the terrorist had a passport, a valid US visa and a return ticket that he used in Lagos to get into first leg of his journey on a KLM flight. Ticket agent at the Amsterdam airport could not be an immigration officer. Why the terrorist was scared to show his passport to the agent though it may have visas from Yemen or Sudan or whatever – something not clear yet if it was the case.

Meantime Dutch authority is saying, the terrorist used his passport at the Amsterdam airport questioning the credibility of Haskell’s story. If you read the news at this local Michigan site: http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/12/dutch_counter-terrorism_agency.html, the word “Indian” is missing now and only “a well-dressed man” appear. Also, Haskell is defending his story and saying he is not there to make money giving TV interviews or, to be on Reality TV shows or, from a book deal. So, it is still a mystery and we all should agree we also wanted to find whomever ”knowingly” helped this terrorist should be tracked down no matter what the nationality or race. Visited the site first time an enjoyed reading some of your comments. Cheers!

Last note: Profiling is good if it is based on facts and after proper research. Remember, what that economic terrorist Madoff did stabbing on the back of many families with a nice smile swindling 65 billions of dollars over a decade. Though Madoff made many many families to live in cars and shelters with their children, I believe he is still has a better life than of a murderer in the jail. Shame!

It doesnt help that Indians are the 1st ones to jump to play a middle eastern terrorist for a movie or tv show.

At least Indian actors have steady work now.

Indian Hindus have no history [...] for destroying American or international passenger airplanes

false

and i am not even including dhiren barot who was born in india and has a hindu name.

Or perhaps an Islamic radical from India

well, is he not indian then?

If someone is making an accusation that an Indian could be involved in some way, there should be an explanation of sorts as to what the motive could be.

how about money?

Whereas a Pakistani is likely to do that.

hmm, i should tell my pakistani friends that it is my duty to prevent them from getting on a plane. guilty until proven innocent for being born in the wrong country.

anyway, varun shekhar, good luck in hoping that the world engages in your selective bigotry. i'll eat my hat the day bigotry against pakistanis and bangladeshis and arabs and indian muslims, the way you'd like it, is so precise and fine that indian hindus escape unscathed. yours is a self-defeating approach, which you should discard purely from a pragmatic pov even without involving qualities like humanity, decency and morality that appear to be in severe short supply,

Based on my experiences, I haven't met very many Americans who can tell the difference between Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Sri Lankans.

Can Desis tell the difference?

I mean, if said persons are not dressed or speaking in a manner that is giving away their ethnic/cultural/national/whatever identity?

Seriously? Can Desis tell the difference between other Desis?

I remember being in India and immediately recognizing some Ethiopian tourists. The other Desis with me thought they were Desi.

"b) Haskell was so sure that the man ushering Abdulmutallab was Indian that he said as much a few times during the interview which I overheard, and NOT ONCE was he asked about this detail…not even via a tentative, “Well, you think the man was Indian, correct?”

First, he didn't say Abdulmutallab was Indian, he said the older man was. How do we know he *wasn't* Indian? While it's true, many, MANY people can't tell the diference, even between a Korean and Mexican, but assuming that Haskell doesn't recognize the differences is just as wrong. I can tell the difference, even what part of India a person is from, and I'm not nearly as well traveled as Haskell. As far as the difference between being Sudanese and Nigerian, they're only 400 miles apart. One's physical characteristics don't change based on which side of a political border one lives. There are Mexicans that look more white than me (and I'm a ghost), and there are Americans that don't even speak English, because they can get by in their community in the US by only speaking Spanish.

What's my point? It's just as bad to jump to the conclusion that someone is racist or ignorant without all of the information as it is to be racist or ignorant. Don't try to use this as an example in how horrible the world is to "brown people". I believe that doing so *is* racist and ignorant.

First, he didn't say Abdulmutallab was Indian, he said the older man was

And if you RTFP, you'd realize that she never said he did. Actually, if you just read the part of the post which YOU quoted in your own comment, you wouldn't have needed your "first" point. But you were probably in too much of a hurry to type this gem:

I can tell the difference, even what part of India a person is from, and I'm not nearly as well traveled as Haskell.

Well, look at you, on a brown website, schooling us dumb identity politickin' types on how you can do what we can't. Seriously, even if you could do what you claim to be able to, I wouldn't brag about it, especially in a space like this. I believe doing so isn't just ignorant, it's presumptuous.

Based on my experiences, I haven't met very many Americans who can tell the difference between Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Sri Lankans.

Can Desis tell the difference?

I mean, if said persons are not dressed or speaking in a manner that is giving away their ethnic/cultural/national/whatever identity?

Seriously? Can Desis tell the difference between other Desis?

I remember being in India and immediately recognizing some Ethiopian tourists. The other Desis with me thought they were Desi.

FWIW I think it is possible to visually differentiate between northern and southern Desis. This isn't always true - but it is in many cases. Those that dont agree generally havent been around enough desis.

The FBI Director should immediately go before the American people and explain why the man that was seen by closed circuit security cameras at Amsterdam's International Gate and by two creditable witness's, one who is a US Attorney as sneaking the Nigerian Muslim butt-bomber past Amsterdam's security checks and onto a International Flight to America without a passport, Is NOT on the FBI MOST WANTED FUGITIVES LIST.

America's News Media from day ONE, should be demanding the photo of the Nigerian Muslim butt-bomber's Passport among the items police collected when that man was treated for his burns and locked into jail.

World News Media from day ONE, should be demanding the security camera photo of the man who sneaked the Nigerian Muslim butt-bomber past Amsterdam's security checks and onto a International Flight to America without a passport.

That man was either a US Diplomat, or a US Govt. Agent (CIA), no one else could waive the International law which prohibits passengers without passports from flying from Amsterdam to America without a passport.

That man obviously didn't board the International Flight himself and that seriously suggests he knew the Nigerian man he was sneaking past the Amsterdam's security check points had a bomb on him and was going to bomb that airliner.

FWIW I think it is possible to visually differentiate between northern and southern Desis. This isn't always true - but it is in many cases. Those that dont agree generally havent been around enough desis.

I strongly disagree with this point (though I appreciate your commencing it with a "FWIW" and your sandwiched disclaimer). It may be possible, but I don't think it's true in "many cases". I am especially disturbed by your last sentence, because it's insulting. It's a popular and offensive canard, the whole authenticity-insider-shtick. If someone doesn't agree with your point, they haven't been around enough Desis? It also begs the nonsensical question, how many Desis is enough? Enough for what? AFAIK, there is no underground manual of cataloged Brownness being maintained in Edison, NJ, filled with truths which are evident to people who have been around a suitable number of South Asians.

I assure you, I have been around "enough" Desis, and all that has done is convince me that while one may be able to generalize about things to a point, assuming anything about someone just by phenotype is, at best, an exercise in futility. I know 100% South Indian people who are mistaken for Pathans, Gujus and the like. I think I look completely Malayalee but my Bengali ex-bf's mom swore I could've been related to her. Here in D.C., people assume I'm Ethiopian before Indian. The people doing the assuming are always Ethiopian. Shouldn't they be able to differentiate between one of their own vs. a Desi? It's amazing that people think they can accurately divine something like ethnicity. Personally, I've always thought that if someone is "great" at that dubious hobby, it has more to do with luck than skill.

A Smith

As far as I know the only evidence we have for this mystery man who helped the bomber board without a passport is Haskell's story.. Either it is all some kind of govt conspiracy or Haskell is mistaken in what he thought he saw or is trying to gain some fame.. I haven't seen any interviews with the gate agent and the airport has confirmed that the terrorist had a valid passport . If this was some kind of govt conspiracy, why would they risk creating a scene at the gate by not supplying the bomber with a passport ?

It's kind of strange that we are debating the nationality of this mystery man, when we don't really have any credible evidence that he even exists.

"FWIW I think it is possible to visually differentiate between northern and southern Desis. This isn't always true - but it is in many cases. Those that dont agree generally havent been around enough desis."

Now, I am sure I will be yelled at for some reason or other, but I just wanted to very meekly mention that looking at Indians, I can make an educated guess of where they are from from certain things--especially Rajastani, Punjabi (and no, I don't just mean a Sikh in a turban), Gujurati, Bengali... I haven't been to South India as much but South Indians looks a bit different (most of the time) from North.

Nigerian Muslim butt-bomber's

Uhh, that's underpants bomber to you, sir.

I'm not entirely sure what is at stake with my being confused with an Indian commenter; at any rate, we have had some Hindus at Vlaams Belang meetings in my natal city of Antwerp, and I said above they have provided useful information about limiting the sort of immigration that is not working for us.

I remember being in India and immediately recognizing some Ethiopian tourists. The other Desis with me thought they were Desi.

This will also be true if the tourists were from Micronesia and a number of other places.

I haven't been to South India as much but South Indians looks a bit different (most of the time) from North.

Your boyfriend looks like a south indian, or like the great majority of north indians. If Haskell or any other person who is not completely clueless saw your boyfriend/husband he would assume he was "indian". Just as if you saw a blond person you would assume he was of european origin. Exceptions only prove the rule.

ANNACHECHY, You look completely malayalee .You know Bengalis and Malayalees have a lot of things in common.Looks are one of the many amongst it. Malayalees and Bengalis look alike.

What I want to know SepiaMutiny is - how come the commenter "euro" has not been banned yet? He he already explicitly stated that he is a member of the racist, xenophobic Belgian "Vlaams Belang" party, and he has already made racist comments against immigrants on this thread. I don't even know what he is doing on this site. It would be equivalent of a member of American nazi party, I think. How can readers take this site seriously when the moderation is not up to par?

just as a fyi, Euro's Vlaams Belang colleagues were so nutso their counterparts in the american Jihad-watch blogosphere summarily disowned any blog associated with the party. I think Robert Stacy McCain may still hang out with them, though.

Hi anna.

I guess American Jihad-watch is some kind of right wing site, yes? Interesting. Even in Belgium there is a 'cordon sanitaire' against Vlaams Belang, which means they are not allowed in ruling coalitions.

" 142 · fwiw on December 31, 2009 3:27 AM · Direct link

I haven't been to South India as much but South Indians looks a bit different (most of the time) from North.

Your boyfriend looks like a south indian, or like the great majority of north indians. If Haskell or any other person who is not completely clueless saw your boyfriend/husband he would assume he was "indian". Just as if you saw a blond person you would assume he was of european origin. Exceptions only prove the rule."

umm, huh?

hi A N N A, hope you are well and happy new year!

it was irresponsible of both haskell and the news outlets to allow what appears to be stereotyping here. fwiw i'm solidly indian but get mistaken for anything from afghani to persian to italian - when i worked on a rez folks even considered that i was american indian. that last point illustrates that folks were interpreting my background based on the circumstances i was in - i.e. on a rez. haskell seems to be connecting the dots in a manner that i think displays his prejudices. wht could the brown man not have been a dark skinned member of the basque movement vs someone from a part of the world that the west now seems to automatically connect with terrorism? (for example). shoddy reporting, i expect more from npr.

I strongly disagree with this point (though I appreciate your commencing it with a "FWIW" and your sandwiched disclaimer). It may be possible, but I don't think it's true in "many cases". I am especially disturbed by your last sentence, because it's insulting. It's a popular and offensive canard, the whole authenticity-insider-shtick. If someone doesn't agree with your point, they haven't been around enough Desis? It also begs the nonsensical question, how many Desis is enough? Enough for what? AFAIK, there is no underground manual of cataloged Brownness being maintained in Edison, NJ, filled with truths which are evident to people who have been around a suitable number of South Asians.

I assure you, I have been around "enough" Desis, and all that has done is convince me that while one may be able to generalize about things to a point, assuming anything about someone just by phenotype is, at best, an exercise in futility. I know 100% South Indian people who are mistaken for Pathans, Gujus and the like. I think I look completely Malayalee but my Bengali ex-bf's mom swore I could've been related to her. Here in D.C., people assume I'm Ethiopian before Indian. The people doing the assuming are always Ethiopian. Shouldn't they be able to differentiate between one of their own vs. a Desi? It's amazing that people think they can accurately divine something like ethnicity. Personally, I've always thought that if someone is "great" at that dubious hobby, it has more to do with luck than skill.

I dont disagree with what you've written completely. That being said, I think that that there are certain distinct northern and southern phenotypes that are associated with desis. Its noteworthy to keep in mind that in my experience south indians are much more likely to look north indian than vice versa. I have seen as you mentioned, many south Indians that look like they could be from any part of India, but I have not run into many north Indians that I would mistake for south indians. I agree that saying so is seen as "a popular and offensive canard" but I think that thats a contemporary problem and not one that desis wrestled with in the past - i.e. pre-partition India.

" Indian Hindus have no history [...] for destroying American or international passenger airplanes"

Xeno says: false

No, true. There is no history of Indian Hindus blowing up,or trying to blow up American or international airplanes, let alone using the pretext of religion( injustices toward Hindus, American/British imperialism, anti-Hindu communal riots etc) . Dhiren Barot had converted to Islam and became "Al Hindi" or something like that.

Yes, there's a possibility of an Indian Moslem cell of one of the Pakistani terror groups, assisting the Nigerian. But Haskell didn't make any mention, any qualifying statement, when he used the word "Indian".

There is no history of Indian Hindus blowing up,or trying to blow up American or international airplanes

for your benefit, let me repeat: false. also, last i checked, dhiren barot was born an indian and a hindu and his name was indeed dhiren barot on his passport. so that's a pretty hindu sounding name, so can't afford to take the risk and we do need to profile all indian hindus.

also, again, for your benefit, let me repeat: anyway, varun shekhar, good luck in hoping that the world engages in your selective bigotry. i'll eat my hat the day bigotry against pakistanis and bangladeshis and arabs and indian muslims, the way you'd like it, is so precise and fine that indian hindus escape unscathed. yours is a self-defeating approach, which you should discard purely from a pragmatic pov even without involving qualities like humanity, decency and morality that appear to be in severe short supply,

happy new year.

Euro's Vlaams Belang colleagues.

as i said before, euro = rob.

How do you know? Then again people switch names on this site all the time.

Although, he does not make the grammatical and spelling mistakes in English so typical of people from that part of the world.

Vlaams Belang represents the kind of euros who have kids (I have three), so we will be stronger going forward. Also, we are Hindu-philic, so I don't fully comprehend the hostility I'm feeling.
Thank you for the compliments on my English--though it is not my natal language, I work in it now in the UK. One Europe and all that.

xeno wrote:

i'll eat my hat the day bigotry against pakistanis and bangladeshis and arabs and indian muslims, the way you'd like it, is so precise and fine that indian hindus escape unscathed.

Xeno,

Pickled Politics has a few posts about right-wing British groups trying to reach out to Hindus and Sikhs in order to prove that they're not racists. It's basically a new version of the divide-and-conquer strategy that has proved so effective in the past.

Pickled Politics has a few posts about right-wing British groups trying to reach out to Hindus and Sikhs in order to prove that they're not racists

yep, bnp has no choice by law but to allow some dark skinned people. last i heard, though, that idiot sikh guy who joined bnp was reconsidering, although i haven't kept up on the story. maybe being called "paki" gave him pause, who knows? :)

"Also, we are Hindu-philic, so I don't fully comprehend the hostility I'm feeling."

Well said, and I don't either. It's possible that the pseudo-secular and/or self hating crowd of Indians( ethnic Indians) doesn't like a non-Indian expressing pro-Hindu sentiments. It's quite uncommon to find people who are sympathetic to Hindus, so when one comes along, like yourself, we should appreciate him that much more.

My ex was from Ethiopia and a lot of folks thought she was Indian. So people do get confused sometime.

RAW - Indian officer is Brown man

I think that that there are certain distinct northern and southern phenotypes that are associated with desis. Its noteworthy to keep in mind that in my experience south indians are much more likely to look north indian than vice versa. I have seen as you mentioned, many south Indians that look like they could be from any part of India, but I have not run into many north Indians that I would mistake for south indians.

I call that BS. To an objective (i.e. non-delusional) observer a village or town crowd from Bihar or Bengal for example will not look different from a crowd from AP, in color or phenotype. Kashmir and some other parts of the northwest (a small minority of north indians) are exceptions, and even there most people will have the distinctive desi look and color.

I call that BS. To an objective (i.e. non-delusional) observer a village or town crowd from Bihar or Bengal for example will not look different from a crowd from AP, in color or phenotype. Kashmir and some other parts of the northwest (a small minority of north indians) are exceptions, and even there most people will have the distinctive desi look and color.

The only delusion I can see is comparing bihar and bengal, two relatively close states, and not more poignant examples such as tamil nadu and punjab.

I meant

- bihar and ap

Haha Giselle Monteiro ...

Lakshmi,

Thanks :)!!

#151 Xeno

FYI

"Barot was born in Baroda, India into a Hindu family[1][3]. His parents moved to the UK from Kenya in 1973 to escape violence and discrimination in Kenya, when he was only one year old. His father, a banker in Kenya, supported his family by working in a factory in UK.

Barot converted to Islam at age 20 in the UK.[4] He attended the Kingsbury High School in north London. He worked for a living on a regular basis only during 1991 to 1995 as an airline ticket and reservations agent for Air Malta, in Piccadilly, central London. It is unclear how he supported himself at other times.[5]

Barot travelled to Pakistan in 1995. He took part in militant campaigns against Indian forces in Kashmir. Using the pseudonym Esa Al Hindi, he wrote a book, The Army of Madinah in Kashmir, in 1999, discussing his experience and describing ways to kill Indian soldiers. The book was commissioned and published by Maktabah al-Ansar, a bookstore co-owned by Moazzam Begg.[6][7] In the late 1990s and early 2000, he served as an agent for al-Qaeda.[8]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhiren_Barot

Profile all Indian Hindus because of this one Hindu who became a Muslim took the name "Esa al-Hind" and went to Pakistan (!) to join an Islamic terrorist organization to fight against the country of India? To me it seems if he had stayed Hindu he would have not have gotten mixed up with Islamic terrorists in the UK and Pakistan.

And that article of the arms dealer that you posted first does not say what religion he is, nor how religious he was, or that he is doing this in the name of his religion. Second that guy is an arms dealer, the article does not say that he belonged to any terrorist group. Third as an arms dealer he isn't the one blowing up anything for any ideology. He is selling arms for money. Fourth, in the sting operation the arms dealer thought he was selling weapons to Muslim terrorists. "...Lakhani, a British citizen of Indian descent, is an independent arms dealer who has sold weapons to terrorist cells, Muslim extremists, and "rogue nations," according to a source close to the investigation...." http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/12/terror.arrest

FWIW I think it is possible to visually differentiate between northern and southern Desis. This isn't always true - but it is in many cases. Those that dont agree generally havent been around enough desis.

I can distinguish between a Northerner/Delhiwala/Pakistani and a Southerner/east Indian/Bengali after a g-loaded impromptu speech for 2 mins.

nd that article of the arms dealer that you posted first does not say what religion he is, nor how religious he was, or that he is doing this in the name of his religion

it doesnt matter that he isnt doing it in the name of religion, after all, money is the ultimate religion. the question is should indian hindus be subject to questioning or suspicion in the issue of visas, passports, travel etc. and the answer is yes, purely by the standards that varun set up.

Barot converted to Islam at age 20

even more reason to stop people independent of religion. how would i know otherwise that a guy from india with a name like dhiren barot is muslim? can't be sure unless we treat them all with prejudice, right?

but I have not run into many north Indians that I would mistake for south indians

Yes all UP/Bihar/Punjab people are light skinned and brandy eyed with sharp noses like Central Asians and cannot be confused for south Indians, especially those from the rural parts.

Xeno your post on 151 said it was false that there were any Hindus blowing up any airlines. Your own posts show that there still is no history of Indian Hindus blowing up,or trying to blow up American or international airplanes. One was a Muslim convert terrorist, the other an arms dealer selling to Muslim terrorists.

Should be "Xeno your post on 151 said it was false that there were not any Hindus blowing up any airlines."

aid it was false that there were any Hindus blowing up any airlines.

good luck trying to defend the claim that lakhani isn't involved in blowing up planes when he is supplying missiles to those that do. and good luck trying to defend the claim that when people named dhiren barot who were born in india indulge in terrorism, it shouldn't trigger greater security against people who have hindu names.

@ 172 · xeno on January 2, 2010 12:22 PM

googled "dhiren barot" : Am I wrong if I say it is not really the name , but his alleged faith has to be taken into account ?

Am I wrong if I say it is not really the name , but his alleged faith has to be taken into account ?

i dont know about you, but i wouldnt be able to divine that a man named dhiren barot from india who looks the way he does is muslim

when a guy of indian origin whose passport says dhiren barot and looks likethis can bomb planes, i think it behooves authorities to profile anybody matching similar descriptions because it is the clearest indication that there is absolutely no way to know.

Yes all UP/Bihar/Punjab people are light skinned and brandy eyed with sharp noses like Central Asians and cannot be confused for south Indians, especially those from the rural parts.

Thanks for taking the time to write down your thoughts but Ive never qualified anything Ive written with the nonsensical-concrete-adverb nature of your canned response.

What if people substituted maybe Haryanvi or Himachali, or even Rajasthani or Gujarti for Punjabi when making their rhetorical points vis a vis the issue de jour?

Do people from those states not exist? Is every issue a contrast between X and Punjab?

And if Punjab is going to be a topic, what about focus on some ground-level issues there, like corruption, caste, the implications of a south asian peace process or lack thereof, economic, the water table, the levels of pollutants like arsenic in the water supply, things like this. Things that can help the state solve some of the myriad problems there, rather than using the region almost solely as a rhetorical device.

* Gujarati

What if people substituted maybe Haryanvi or Himachali, or even Rajasthani or Gujarti for Punjabi when making their rhetorical points vis a vis the issue de jour?

Do people from those states not exist? Is every issue a contrast between X and Punjab?

Tips buddy. Tips.

What do tips have to do with the nature of many if not most of the comments?

What do tips have to do with the nature of many if not most of the comments?

Isnt everything about the tips?

And how does your suggestion relate to the invocation of the region as a rhetorical device?

Isnt everything about the tips?

Don't know, I don't think so.

Tips are prime choice as far as rhetorical devices.

Don't know, I don't think so.

Youre not thinking tips. Think tips friend. Tips.

Tips are prime choice as far as rhetorical devices

That does mean anything

*not

Youre not thinking tips. Think tips friend. Tips.

Do you think you're being ironic?

Do you think you're being ironic?

No

That does mean anything

Tips often dont.

"Barot travelled to Pakistan in 1995. He took part in militant campaigns against Indian forces in Kashmir. Using the pseudonym Esa Al Hindi, he wrote a book, The Army of Madinah in Kashmir, in 1999, discussing his experience and describing ways to kill Indian soldiers"

In his own way, Dhiren Barot a.k.a Al-Hindi is illustrating why Pakistan is the way it is. The Pakistanis are almost all converts or descendants of relatively recent converts from Hinduism. They possess the zealotry, exclusivism and aggressiveness of the new convert. They see the adherents of their "old" religion around them, and in large numbers, which makes them feel both insecure and militant. They are anxious to prove to themselves, to each other, and to the well established Moslems in the Arab world, how truly Moslem they are, by being aggressive toward India, the source of their old, idolatrous faith. And it doesn't help matters that politically, they are dominated by their military, which embodies this pernicious ideology at its most aggressive and obnoxious i.e the belief that the Moslems of the subcontinent, particularly those from Pakistan, are the martial, conquering races fit to rule, while the soft, vegetarian Hindus are inferior, conquered people.

The Pakistanis are almost all converts or descendants of relatively recent converts from Hinduism. They possess the zealotry, exclusivism and aggressiveness of the new convert. They see the adherents of their "old" religion around them, and in large numbers, which makes them feel both insecure and militant. They are anxious to prove to themselves, to each other, and to the well established Moslems in the Arab world, how truly Moslem they are, by being aggressive toward India, the source of their old, idolatrous faith. And it doesn't help matters that politically, they are dominated by their military, which embodies this pernicious ideology at its most aggressive and obnoxious i.e the belief that the Moslems of the subcontinent, particularly those from Pakistan, are the martial, conquering races fit to rule, while the soft, vegetarian Hindus are inferior, conquered people.

great stuff! i couldnt come up with better satire if i tried!

VARUN #150

" Indian Hindus have no history [...] for destroying American or international passenger airplanes"

Xeno says: false

No, true. There is no history of Indian Hindus blowing up,or trying to blow up American or international airplanes, let alone using the pretext of religion( injustices toward Hindus, American/British imperialism, anti-Hindu communal riots etc) . Dhiren Barot had converted to Islam and became "Al Hindi" or something like that.

Yes, there's a possibility of an Indian Moslem cell of one of the Pakistani terror groups, assisting the Nigerian. But Haskell didn't make any mention, any qualifying statement, when he used the word "Indian".

Xeno, you seemed to try to show to Varun in his post #126 AND #150 that Indian HINDUS do have a history of blowing up American planes or international passenger airplanes. Varun seemed to be talking about HINDUS as Hindus for Hinduism have no history of blowing up international planes, not muslim converts for Islam. Your example of of that Muslim convert only reinforces Varun's point since that convert did it, not as a religious Hindu, but as a religious Muslim. His example would add to the history of Muslims blowing up planes. You still have not shown any examples showing a HISTORY (which would entail multiple instances) of HINDUS blowing up American and international planes. As for that arms dealer Lakhani, the "US agents believe he was not affiliated to any terrorist group but that he was "in it for the money" and prepared to deal with anyone."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-192321/British-arms-dealer-court.html#ixzz0bV0gYSQ2

Not sure what religion he is cause this would be odd for a Hindu to say: "...He pleaded not guilty before US district court Judge Katherine Hayden of Newark, New Jersey and insisted he will never plead guilty.

"I was offered a deal (plea bargain), but why should I say yes? Whatever is to happen will happen, Allah sabka hai (Allah is there for everyone) and if this man (the government's cooperative witness, Habibur Rehman) is ever extradited, (Pakistan President Pervez) Musharraf will throw him in prison for all he has done."...http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/may/03speca.htm
and Daily Times for Pakistan has him as a Muslim Briton:
"Trial of Muslim Briton begins in US

NEW YORK: A jury was picked on Tuesday in the case of Hemant Lakhani, a British businessman arrested in August 2003 in an FBI sting operation for trying to sell missiles to militants intent on downing airliners."

The arms dealer, regardless of his religion which does not seem to be the motivating factor, but money as the US agents said was, still was not selling weapons to Hindus to bring down planes he was selling them to Muslims.

As to names being an indicator, there are a couple of jihadists, converts and born muslims who were born with non-Muslim names and who like "Headley" in the November Mumbai massacre took on a non-Muslim name deliberately to pass as a non-Muslim. So I agree with you a person with a Muslim name should not automatically be suspected, and everyone with a non-Muslim name should not be automatically be above suspicion. But you still have not shown any examples that Varun isn't still right in that there is no history of Hindus like there is for Muslims in blowing up international airplanes.

, still was not selling weapons to Hindus to bring down planes he was selling them to Muslims.

good luck trying to defend the claim that the person who sold the weapons is not complicit in the blowing up of the planes.

and Daily Times for Pakistan has him as a Muslim Briton:

This is what Hemant Lakhani has himself said:

"But now they are very nice, they have realized that I don't want to harm this country (the US), that I am a peace-loving Hindu."

"In the beginning, I had a lot of problems since I am a strict vegetarian, and I kept telling them I can't eat meat."

"I have my shraddha, my belief in God,

"My wife Kusum and I are devout Hindus, and I still pray for about two hours or more every day, morning and evening."

"I am a desi, I will remain a desi,

"Yes all UP/Bihar/Punjab people are light skinned and brandy eyed with sharp noses like Central Asians and cannot be confused for south Indians, especially those from the rural parts."

you kidding?
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/04/0415_india_most_powerful/image/004_mayawati.jpg

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2007/08/17/images/2007081750090401.jpg

check the pictures and show where are those fair skinned brandy eyed people with sharp noses different from south indians .

Punjabis and biharis don't look anything like each other...that said many shades exist amongst punjabis as well..this linl looks like a hot potatoe...a terrorist is just that, whatever his alligence

when a guy of indian origin whose passport says dhiren barot and looks like this

Clicked the link and right off the bat guessed Dhiren is Bengali. So how's my Desi geo-pheno-regional-ethnic-meter?

Now I'll google wiki him and see if I'm correct.

Now I'll google wiki him

tweet us if you youtube the vid on his fb profile

Xeno, why would a devout Hindu refer to Allah? It doesn't make sense. In any case the US agents have said he did it for the money, not religion.

Xeno you have no proof that Hindus as Hindus for Hinduism in religious war have a history of blowing up international airplanes. None. Your "best" evidence is one arms dealer who was aiming to sell weapons to MUSLIM terrorists for their JIHAD (as Lakhani called it) so Muslim terrorists could once again target international planes. An arms dealer as an individual committed a crime by selling to terrorists and other shady people, in this case Muslim terrorists, but that is far different from what Varun was pointing out.

Show us a history (more than once) of Hindus as Hindus for Hinduism in religious war blowing up international planes - not Muslim converts engaged in Islamic terrorism, not an arms dealer whose religion is shady who sold weapons to Islamic terrorists for them to blow up planes.

Xeno you have no proof that Hindus as Hindus for Hinduism in religious war have a history of blowing up international airplanes.

the question is not why they do it. the question is whether they do it. and the answer is yes. which is all that matters for instituting a policy of profiling people, both because they do it, and because they are indistinguishable from those who do.

you can redefine the question narrowly, orthogonally, or upside down if it gives you the answer they want, but that is not the question relevant here. you can continue to believe that hemant lakhani is muslim despite all his pronouncements to the contrary too, if that gives you solace.

the question is not why they do it. the question is whether they do it. and the answer is yes.

How many Hindus have done this? 1? 4?

How many Hindus have done this? 1? 4?

how many such people do you need before you start taking precautions? how many shoe bombers do you need before you put in procedures reg footwear at airports? how many undie bombers do you need before you start agreeing that more security checking is needed in airports? 1? 4? 10?

how many undie bombers do you need before you start agreeing that more security checking is needed in airports? 1? 4? 10?

You mean they're going to start searching our underwear at airports now????

"You mean they're going to start searching our underwear at airports now????"

Yeah we will have to take them off and but them through the x-ray machine like we have to do with shoes since the shoe bomber.

Xeno :"great stuff! i couldnt come up with better satire if i tried!"

Actually, this condition also applies to Indian Christian neo-converts. They possess the zeal, exclusivism and aggressiveness of the new convert. They draw heavily upon "Jesus" , the bible, the church and/or the Vatican. They tend to denounce Hinduism. In the US, Canada and Denmark, among similar countries, Christianity is very much in the background. Anyone making constant references to Christ, the bible, the Pope etc, really stands out like a sore thumb, that is if they are not considered "Jesus freaks". But in the name of secularism, this type of behaviour is even encouraged in India.

Actually, this condition also applies to Indian Christian neo-converts. They possess the zeal, exclusivism and aggressiveness of the new convert. They draw heavily upon "Jesus" , the bible, the church and/or the Vatican. They tend to denounce Hinduism. In the US, Canada and Denmark, among similar countries, Christianity is very much in the background. Anyone making constant references to Christ, the bible, the Pope etc, really stands out like a sore thumb, that is if they are not considered "Jesus freaks". But in the name of secularism, this type of behaviour is even encouraged in India.

I would add that it in fact applies to anyone that isnt hindu and a healthy shade of wheat.

Actually, this condition also applies to Indian Christian neo-converts. They possess the zeal, exclusivism and aggressiveness of the new convert. They draw heavily upon "Jesus" , the bible, the church and/or the Vatican. They tend to denounce Hinduism. In the US, Canada and Denmark, among similar countries, Christianity is very much in the background. Anyone making constant references to Christ, the bible, the Pope etc, really stands out like a sore thumb, that is if they are not considered "Jesus freaks". But in the name of secularism, this type of behaviour is even encouraged in India.

>>>>

I would add that it in fact applies to anyone that isnt hindu and a healthy shade of wheat.

>>>>

And I would add it applies to any convert to almost any religion.

Just see the "hare krishnas" for an example of zeal with regards to the (Hindu) religion they converted to.

"And I would add it applies to any convert to almost any religion.

Just see the "hare krishnas" for an example of zeal with regards to the (Hindu) religion they converted to."

That's possible, but a major difference is that the Hare Krishna's are smaller in numbers, and tend not to denounce other religions, including their former one, if they are converts from non-Hinduism.

That's possible, but a major difference is that the Hare Krishna's are smaller in numbers, and tend not to denounce other religions, including their former one, if they are converts from non-Hinduism.

Many Hare Krishnas denounce other relgions and ways of life. It's one of the things that turned me off of their Sunday Feasts, even though the grub was delish.

Denouncing any non-hindu-religion is cool if you ask me. Hip/edgy anyone? Thats all I really care about. Or is it more like facist/insular? In which case not as much I must admit.

Denouncing any non-hindu-religion is cool if you ask me. Hip/edgy anyone? Thats all I really care about. Or is it more like facist/insular? In which case not as much I must admit.

In the case of HARE KRISHNAS it's neither hip nor edgy, more like immature and fanatical.

Not saying all are like that, but a significant number of ones I've met have been. I hear things are changing though. They also denounce other Hindus, and even other sects within their own religion.

In the case of HARE KRISHNAS it's neither hip nor edgy, more like immature and fanatical.

Not saying all are like that, but a significant number of ones I've met have been. I hear things are changing though. They also denounce other Hindus, and even other sects within their own religion.

Ah. So we are talking immature-fanatical. Closer to facist-insular than I personally like hanging around at. Its a fun spectrum to be honest.

The only delusion I can see is comparing bihar and bengal, two relatively close states, and not more poignant examples such as tamil nadu and punjab.

I don't think you know what the word delusion means. Trying to pass off a minority of residents from Punjab, a small state with less than a third of Bihar's population, as representative of North Indians is the height of delusion.

BTW, two of the most successful punjabis, Manmohan Singh and Bobby Jindal, are typical of what the majority of punjabis look like. And they would not stand out in a South Indian or Bengali crowd.

I don't think you know what the word delusion means. Trying to pass off a minority of residents from Punjab, a small state with less than a third of Bihar's population, as representative of North Indians is the height of delusion.

BTW, two of the most successful punjabis, Manmohan Singh and Bobby Jindal, are typical of what the majority of punjabis look like. And they would not stand out in a South Indian or Bengali crowd.

If by crowd you mean hundreds of people then no. But then again, not many people stand out in any crowd of x, y, or z. A north indian is much more likely to pass off as hispanic than a south indian. Thats just been my overwhelming experience. This is not to say that exceptions dont exist.

A north indian is much more likely to pass off as hispanic than a south indian.

This is just ignorance piled upon delusion. It is far from "much more likely" that a desi from north indian states like Bihar, Bengal, Madhya Pradesh etc would pass off as a hispanic than a south indian. I don't think Prime Minister Manmohan Singh (without his turban) or Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, both typical punjabis, would be mistaken for anything other than desi.

Secondly, hispanics come in all colors and phenotypes; and those with mixed african or dark gypsy ancestry are the ones that some desis may sometimes "pass off as". I think it is downright pathetic how so many desis, including both north and south indians, feel the need to claim that they "pass off" as non-desis. Especially considering that the people they claim to pass off as aren't exactly the most admired peoples around. Clearly there is a great deal of racial shame and a deep inferiority complex going on here...

I'm north Indian...and whereever I go in UK and Europe people realise I am Indian or Pakistanni...yet when I was in california people for whom I opned the door would say thanks amigo or spanish types would start speaking to me in spanish...first I was no I'm not mexican.,..then I just got annoyed...then I just got even by speaking back in Punjabi!!!
Point is America might be melting pot, but its sure ignorant about most of the world

This is just ignorance piled upon delusion. It is far from "much more likely" that a desi from north indian states like Bihar, Bengal, Madhya Pradesh etc would pass off as a hispanic than a south indian. I don't think Prime Minister Manmohan Singh (without his turban) or Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, both typical punjabis, would be mistaken for anything other than desi.

Secondly, hispanics come in all colors and phenotypes; and those with mixed african or dark gypsy ancestry are the ones that some desis may sometimes "pass off as". I think it is downright pathetic how so many desis, including both north and south indians, feel the need to claim that they "pass off" as non-desis. Especially considering that the people they claim to pass off as aren't exactly the most admired peoples around. Clearly there is a great deal of racial shame and a deep inferiority complex going on here...

First of all, Im not talking about anyone needing to pass off as anything. Secondly, while jindal may not be able to "pass off" (i think his nose is too big / arabic looking), I think manmohan probably could if he lost the turban and beard. Just a guess.

I think those desis wanting to pass off as another race are generally those that dont see themself represented in media and entertainment and have a natural desire to see themselves reflected in their surroundings. Desis are generally not very visible (with the occasional exception) in mass media outside the subcontinent. Within india for example, there is an obsession with light skin but then again Id argue that in the US there is an obsession about tan skin.

I chose hispanics precisely for the reasons you outlined - that being said, they are different from desis in that as a people desis are probably the only ones that have both simultaneously a certain "look" and yet are still different in other ways. I'm simply describing those "other ways", which can include everything from facial features to skin color.

I think it is downright pathetic how so many desis, including both north and south indians, feel the need to claim that they "pass off" as non-desis.

Id argue that this is a consequence of having various phenotypes available to them as well. Whites, black, chinese, etc generally dont have the option. It isnt right but I think it indirectly supports my argument.

You have not show "THEY" have a HISTORY of doing it. ONE arms dealer ONE time who is in it for the money selling to Islamic terrorists for their jihad for Islamic terrorists to blow up international airplanes, does not make a history of Hindus blowing up international airplanes. By your reasoning everyone who sells weapons is complicit with how they are used by those who bought it. If that is the best example you have, it isn't anything at all. You have failed to show Varun is wrong when he said Hindus do not have a history of blowing up international airplanes. Your example seems to me to be not a very helpful one for Muslims. Motive is a factor in why there is a history of MUSLIMS blowing up airplanes - according to those Muslims it is jihad. This is why Muslims thanks to Muslims are under more scrutiny than Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Atheists, Wiccans, Druids, hell even more than crazy Satanists. It is about likelihood. The Pope too could blow up an airline but the likelihood is far less than a Muslim terrorist.

As for profiling like I said I agree with you that a non-Muslim name doesn't mean he is not a person who won't blow up the planes and a Muslim name doesn't mean he will. Racial or religious profiling won't work because Islam is not a race, and by looking at a person one cannot tell his religion or more importantly whether to that person blowing-up-planes-jihad is on his mind, but watching out for behavior works far better.

It is either European or Latino. Very few Desis talk about how they pass for East Asian (and there are some), Arab and Black.

Are you all pranking me? The first 100 comments were "Indians look different from Pakistanis. Why didn't he say 'Indian or Pakistani'? Waaah!". And the next 100 comments are "Scythians look different from Lemurians. No they don't. Your mom". If this unintellectual debate goes any further, we're going to end up with "Namboodris look different from Malankaras. You know who else looked different from Malankaras? HITLER!". Stop it, please.

For the record, Ted Kaczynski was The Unabomber, and this Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab is The Undibomber.

Are you all pranking me? The first 100 comments were "Indians look different from Pakistanis. Why didn't he say 'Indian or Pakistani'? Waaah!". And the next 100 comments are "Scythians look different from Lemurians. No they don't. Your mom". If this unintellectual debate goes any further, we're going to end up with "Namboodris look different from Malankaras. You know who else looked different from Malankaras? HITLER!". Stop it, please.

For the record, Ted Kaczynski was The Unabomber, and this Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab is The Undibomber.

Why is it not intellectual to recognize that the part of the world desis come from is rich in all kinds of diversity? Thats what it seems like when you hear something like "all indians look the same". It goes beyond simple racializations. From the north to the south india is extremely rich in all kinds of traditions, cultures, religions, and on and on. Isnt that what makes it so unique and wise - is it too much to ask to appreciate differences? Why do we have to fit into desi caricatures? Because thats what uneducated non-desis would be most comfortable with? How intellectual is that? I can appreciate that the debate can sometimes get trivial but I dont think that means there is nothing to talk about.

It is either European or Latino. Very few Desis talk about how they pass for East Asian (and there are some), Arab and Black.

Ha. Ha. So true.

Hispanics and arabs, and even turks, are far more diverse in looks and color than desis. Desis are not even close to them in true diversity.

A crowd scene from Punjab will not be mistaken for a crowd scene from anywhere outside the Indian subcontinent. The sad truth is that too many desis are ashamed of their origins. Observe the numbers of desis (and not just muslims) who claim that their ancestors came from somewhere outside the Indian subcontinent, or who constantly boast that they are mistaken for non-desis. This shame at being from India, or looking like indians, must have been true even a 1000 years ago, since the gypsies who were from northwest India lied about their origins and claimed to be from Egypt when they reached Europe.

Hispanics and arabs, and even turks, are far more diverse in looks and color than desis. Desis are not even close to them in true diversity.

While there are plenty of diverse genetic populations, I dont see how that negates diversity within the subcontinent. There are desis that are as pale as pale gets and those that are as dark as dark gets. There are sharp featured, dull featured, and so on. Yet they are all readily identifiable as desi. I dont see how you can quantify that and compare it with hispanics, arabs, and turks... If im guilty of being delusional, you are guilty of being in denial.

"First of all, Im not talking about anyone needing to pass off as anything. Secondly, while jindal may not be able to "pass off" (i think his nose is too big / arabic looking), I think manmohan probably could if he lost the turban and beard. Just a guess. "

How come jindal's nose and arabic lookin related to each other?
Haven't you seen Indians(both North and South) with long noses?

it shows your ignorance.

How come jindal's nose and arabic lookin related to each other? Haven't you seen Indians(both North and South) with long noses?

it shows your ignorance.

I was saying that jindal looks less hispanic to me because of his nose - not more or less north or south indian.

How come jindal's nose and arabic lookin related to each other? Haven't you seen Indians(both North and South) with long noses?
it shows your ignorance.

I was saying that jindal looks less hispanic to me because of his nose - not more or less north or south indian.

Right, I see what your saying. I could have worded it a little better. Hows "non-hispanic" looking? Forget the arabic thing.

There are desis that are as pale as pale gets and those that are as dark as dark gets. There are sharp featured, dull featured, and so on. Yet they are all readily identifiable as desi. I dont see how you can quantify that and compare it with hispanics, arabs, and turks... If im guilty of being delusional, you are guilty of being in denial.

Actually you are guilty of both denial and delusion. Along with self-loathing and treachery towards your own kind.

There are very few desis who are as "as pale as pale gets", whereas there are large percentages of arabs and hispanics who look like europeans.

I was saying that jindal looks less hispanic to me because of his nose - not more or less north or south indian.

That is further proof of your stupidity and ignorance.

http://www.igvdb.res.in/references.php

If thats not diverse enough for your satisfaction then Im not sure what would be. The source is an academic study and an ongoing project in India wrt mapping its diversity.

Actually you are guilty of both denial and delusion. Along with self-loathing and treachery towards your own kind.

I would argue that self loathing and treacherous behaviour is trying to sell people the farce that the every indian looks like every other indian.

There are very few desis who are as "as pale as pale gets", whereas there are large percentages of arabs and hispanics who look like europeans.

I didnt realize looking european was what you meant by diverse. Sorry youre so right.

Here is another academic study on the topic.
http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/cesmg/peopling.html

One of the more relevant quotes includes the following :

Genetically and culturally India is perhaps the most diverse country on the face of the earth. The most authoritative summary of genetics of human populations is provided by Cavalli-Sforza in his magnum opus, History and Geography of Human Genes [Cavalli-Sforza, et. al 1994]. He provides global maps of frequencies of 82 genes for 42 population aggregates of indigenous people covering the entire world. The 82 loci show the highest levels of heterozygosity, 0.35-0.37 for northwestern India, west Asia and continental Europe (Fig.1).

Genetically and culturally India is perhaps the most diverse country on the face of the earth

Bullcrap. Africa is far more genetically diverse than the Indian subcontinent:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/30/AR2009043002485.html

Africans are more genetically diverse than the inhabitants of the rest of the world combined, according to a sweeping study that carried researchers into remote regions to sample the bloodlines of more than 100 distinct populations.

Yet despite this genetic diversity in Africa and to a lesser extent India, people from Africa and the Indian subcontinent are easily identifiable visually as being of african or indian origin respectively.

The fact that Americans mistake some Indians for Ethiopians or even Latinos doesn't mean that indians look like those ethnic groups. It just means that Americans are ignorant as hell about the rest of the world. Because in Europe everybody could see plainly that my origins lay in the Indian subcontinent. Why do we have this obsession for 'passing' as another ethnic group? (Note that it is always white European/Turk, not East Asian or African or Australian aborigine!)

The fact that Americans mistake some Indians for Ethiopians or even Latinos doesn't mean that indians look like those ethnic groups.

While I agree with what you're saying (to an extent) I would also add that Indians are often mistaken for natives by natives, in other countries/regions. Particularly latin american ones.

"get real" is Prema.

While I agree with what you're saying (to an extent) I would also add that Indians are often mistaken for natives by natives, in other countries/regions. Particularly latin american ones.
Latin America is extremely diverse so this is a strange comment. There are large groups of people of Indian origin in the Caribbean and Guyana, so maybe that counts for the 'mistaking'.

Latin America is extremely diverse so this is a strange comment. There are large groups of people of Indian origin in the Caribbean and Guyana, so maybe that counts for the 'mistaking'.

Latin America is diverse but india is not? Indians get mistaken for natives everywhere from brazil to puerto Rico. I have witnessed this personally. I think there is an overall underestimation of how diverse India really is.

" Many Hare Krishnas denounce other relgions and ways of life. It's one of the things that turned me off of their Sunday Feasts, even though the grub was delish."

That certainly hasn't been my experience in the few times I've been there. It's been devotion, music, food and the odd discourse. What they denounce are the old vices of mankind- greed, violence, hatred, jealousy etc. There is positively an absence of the concept of 'false Gods', which still exists in Christianity and Islam.

Latin America is diverse but india is not? Indians get mistaken for natives everywhere from brazil to puerto Rico. I have witnessed this personally. I think there is an overall underestimation of how diverse India really is.
I certainly agree that India is very diverse.I am questioning more the pride that certain Indians take in being mistaken for another nationality. My point is also that Latin American countries are ALSO very diverse, so an Indian would not look too out of place there. Also I find it interesting how you only mention the natives of South America, but not of South East Asia and African countries? Because there are very many Indians could be mistaken for people from those places.

Latin America is diverse but india is not? Indians get mistaken for natives everywhere from brazil to puerto Rico. I have witnessed this personally. I think there is an overall underestimation of how diverse India really is.
I certainly agree that India is very diverse.I am questioning more the pride that certain Indians take in being mistaken for another nationality. My point is also that Latin American countries are ALSO very diverse, so an Indian would not look too out of place there. Also I find it interesting how you only mention the natives of South America, but not of South East Asia and African countries? Because there are very many Indians could be mistaken for people from those places

Im not saying that there's pride in being mistaken for another race.. I'm saying that it can happen. You are correct in saying that Latin America is not exclusive in this respect which all the more supports my arguement. What I'm debating is that there is no "true diversity" in India while it's "true" eveywhere else..

Desis also look African and Arab as much as they look Latino or Meditterenean.

AVATAR wrote:

Many Hare Krishnas denounce other relgions and ways of life.

Please keep in mind that many Hare Krishnas are former evangelical Christians who have brought over cultural baggage from their former faith.
A few years ago, Manish wrote a post about ISKCON supporting intelligent design.

Average Indian looks closer to an African than a Latino or European.
But you'll never come across an Indian who brags that he/she regularly gets mistaken for a Black.

Rohit wrote:

But you'll never come across an Indian who brags that he/she regularly gets mistaken for a Black.

Not necessarily.
Vijay Prashad noticed that there are some connections between writers of the Dalit movement, like V. T. Rajshekar, and the Afrocentric movement, like Runoko Rashidi. He referred to it as a "submerged network of Afro-Dalit literature".

Average Indian looks closer to an African than a Latino or European. But you'll never come across an Indian who brags that he/she regularly gets mistaken for a Black.

True and telling. You can be sure that Anon and the rest of the "I have been mistaken for a hispanic/arab" crowd have been called "black" or the N-word far more often. But they are too ashamed, too dishonest and too cowardly to admit it. Unlike Swami Vivekananda, Rabindranath Tagore, Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar etc who were seen as black or african when in America, by both white and black americans, and weren't ashamed to mention it.

Of course desis can sometimes be mistaken for arabs or hispanics since these people are extremely diverse in looks and many of them have african and south asian blood, just as many of them look european. Also mongoloid in the case of hispanics. What's ridiculous however is how so many foolish desi braggards think that being mistaken for a dark-skinned hispanic or arab is the equivalent of not looking like a desi.

Latin America is diverse but india is not? Indians get mistaken for natives everywhere from brazil to puerto Rico. I have witnessed this personally. I think there is an overall underestimation of how diverse India really is.

The more you post the more you expose your ignorance and stupidity. Please explain how indians getting mistaken as belonging to a very diverse group that includes dark-skinned africans, south asians and native central americans proves indian diversity.

I find it interesting how you only mention the natives of South America, but not of South East Asia and African countries? Because there are very many Indians could be mistaken for people from those places.

Obviously this selective mentioning is an expression of a deeply servile inferiority complex vis a vis white europeans. Anon and his ilk must think that being mistaken for an arab or hispanic is very flattering to their tormented slavish egos, since unlike desis there is a large percentage of hispanics and arabs who do look white. What's funny is how utterly illogical their reasoning is: if desis are mistaken for arabs and hispanics they are not being mistaken for the arabs or hispanics who look white, but for those who are dark-skinned like desis.

True and telling. You can be sure that Anon and the rest of the "I have been mistaken for a hispanic/arab" crowd have been called "black" or the N-word far more often. But they are too ashamed, too dishonest and too cowardly to admit it. Unlike Swami Vivekananda, Rabindranath Tagore, Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar etc who were seen as black or african when in America, by both white and black americans, and weren't ashamed to mention it.

Of course desis can sometimes be mistaken for arabs or hispanics since these people are extremely diverse in looks and many of them have african and south asian blood, just as many of them look european. Also mongoloid in the case of hispanics. What's ridiculous however is how so many foolish desi braggards think that being mistaken for a dark-skinned hispanic or arab is the equivalent of not looking like a desi.

Buddy, I think your fundamental problem is that you see in Indian people who and what you want to see. Furthermore, you most likely see in fellow desis only what non-desis give you permission to see. I dont think I have ever been called "black" or the n-word. I can also tell you that I know desis that would be mistaken as white, desis that would be mistaken as black if they put a baseball cap on, and those that look like tan mexicans crossing the border. Im sure youre crunching the numbers right now.. "Wait a min there arent that many indians that look white!" Oh no! Stop the presses! I think in your pathetic little world all desis should look the way you look, worship the way you worship, feel the way you feel - oh and not to mention like your mummies cooking. Thats the only "ignorant and stupid" point of view that Ive seen so far.

The more you post the more you expose your ignorance and stupidity. Please explain how indians getting mistaken as belonging to a very diverse group that includes dark-skinned africans, south asians and native central americans proves indian diversity.

If you need further proof of Indian diversity after the multiple academic genetic studies that I have shown you then you are either a troll, or one of the dumbest Indians I have ever had the misfortune of coming across.