…because he’s in his hometown of Edison, NJ. Get it? EDISON IS THE HOME OF A LOT OF INDIAN IMMIGRANTS! And they have overrun the township, what with their red dots, and zany, octopus-like deities and of course, their cows! Indians worship cows! And Edison is full of Indians! So there are cows in Edison, and the cows take dumps, and this unfunny columnist named Joel Stein really stepped in it, because the nasty brown shit (and by nasty brown shit, I mean “Indian”) is everywhere! The brown shit is unavoidable! ISN’T THAT HILARIOUS? WHY AREN’T YOU LAUGHING? Don’t you get it? That paragraph is humorous! I have bludgeoned you about the head with my clever humor! And if you don’t “get” it, you are excessively thin-skinned, like…like…an eggshell plaintiff!
What’s that you say, Desis? You weren’t impressed with Stein’s comedic stylings? Why…if you’re outraged, then that’s GREAT because it means Stein’s humor is EDGY. That’s what great comics do! They challenge you! They inspire your eyebrows to raise up like they’re furry, arched extras in a Petey Pablo video!
You didn’t think it was funny, at all? Well, chin up, dear Mutineers. Neither did I.
And that’s because, it wasn’t.
When I first ventured online today, I had a dozen tweets, emails and FB messages waiting for me. They all contained the same link to TIME magazine, a publication I adored as a child. My interest? Piqued. I started to read.
Let me tell you what I liked about the essay which all of you wanted me to read, first: the title. I loved the B-52s in high school and I love lifting blog titles from song titles. Clearly, Stein was referencing “Private Idaho”, which was a bit before my time (released: 1980) and to my INDIAN ears, a bit annoying. I preferred a single from a full decade later— “Deadbeat Club”. I used to put it on a lot of my mix tapes. Sigh.
Now that we got THAT out of the way, let me tell you what I disliked about Stein’s “meditation” on immigration. See what I did there? Huh? Huh? INDIAN STUFF, AGAIN!
Every. Thing. Else.
Let’s get started, shall we? But first, to really do Mr. Stein justice, I’m going to light some incense, play a “Jai Ho” remix, and nosh on some curry— but daintily! I don’t want to stain my exotic silk costume, which I bought in…of all places…Edison. What are the odds, right? Oh, wait…according to TIME magazine, the odds are very good that my Indian garb is from Edison. The whole place is infested with Patels. Did I mention there’s a dot on my forehead? I’m a dothead! Wheee! Oh, but I am getting ahead of myself (I am waggling my head as I type that. If you’re reading this, switch to an “Apu” voice, would you? Thanks, you’re a doll. I mean, you’re an Aishwarya!)
I am very much in favor of immigration everywhere in the U.S. except Edison, N.J. The mostly white suburban town I left when I graduated from high school in 1989 — the town that was called Menlo Park when Thomas Alva Edison set up shop there and was later renamed in his honor — has become home to one of the biggest Indian communities in the U.S., as familiar to people in India as how to instruct stupid Americans to reboot their Internet routers.
HAHAHA! Stein just called Americans “stupid”. Doing this protects him from any accusations of racism or bias, because he made fun of himself! And he said he was pro-immigration, so he’s nice, too. See how that works? What are you saying? It DIDN’T work? Oh.
Hmmm.
Maybe that’s because it was made by an American! Ooooh, BURN! Like a VINDALOO! And you can’t get mad at me, because I’m an American, too! Huzzah for humor insurance!
My town is totally unfamiliar to me. The Pizza Hut where my busboy friends stole pies for our drunken parties is now an Indian sweets shop with a completely inappropriate roof. The A&P I shoplifted from is now an Indian grocery. The multiplex where we snuck into R-rated movies now shows only Bollywood films and serves samosas. The Italian restaurant that my friends stole cash from as waiters is now Moghul, one of the most famous Indian restaurants in the country. There is an entire generation of white children in Edison who have nowhere to learn crime.
Aww, more self-deprecation! It almost makes you miss the utterly bizarre reference to the mithai place’s “inappropriate roof”. How, may I ask, is a roof ever inappropriate? Did it forget to wear its knickers? Does it have the F-bomb painted on it? Better yet, is the roof fornicating with something? Perhaps a chimney? Oh, yeah…you’re a nasty roof, aren’t you? You’re bad. You need to be punished.
Or wait— did Stein mean inappropriate like that inebriated White parent who showed up to my conservative private school and slurred about what he’d like to do to all of us young girls in our pleated skirts? If so, that’s a TERRIBLE roof. A dangerous one, even. Also, you can’t get mad at me for sharing that anecdote which makes Whites look bad, because I was in it. Or it was funny. Or something. What? “Humor” is Stein’s excuse. He’s American, possibly Jewish, and he finds himself far too clever— just like me! STOP BEING THIN-SKINNED, EGGSHELL PLAINTIFF.
I called James W. Hughes, policy-school dean at Rutgers University, who explained that Lyndon Johnson’s 1965 immigration law raised immigration caps for non-European countries. LBJ apparently had some weird relationship with Asians in which he liked both inviting them over and going over to Asia to kill them.
I’ll be damned. This hack was actually funny for a change. I’m going to agree with my colleague Amardeep and declare that this bit works. If only the ENTIRE ARTICLE worked as well. Also? EDISON IS FULL OF DOT-HEADED NERDS WHO WORSHIP PENISES. What? I was worried you’d forget. You suffered through that Stein piece, you’re probably used to being bludgeoned with such sentiments every 30 seconds. I’m just trying to be considerate, y’all. Why do you have to be so Indian about everything? Why can’t you be dishonest and White, and not change everything, and not take over the businesses where I learned to be a petty thief and…and…stuff? NOTHING SHOULD EVER CHANGE, DAMNIT. IT’S JOEL STEIN’S WORLD AND WE’RE ALL JUST LIVING IN IT.
After the law passed, when I was a kid, a few engineers and doctors from Gujarat moved to Edison because of its proximity to AT&T, good schools and reasonably priced, if slightly deteriorating, post-WW II housing. For a while, we assumed all Indians were geniuses. Then, in the 1980s, the doctors and engineers brought over their merchant cousins, and we were no longer so sure about the genius thing. In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants brought their even-less-bright cousins, and we started to understand why India is so damn poor.
Sorry, Mutineers— I’m going to have to ask you to stop reading this blog and look away for a moment. I love you too much to let you watch what happens next. Tearing someone a new arsehole is a brutal, violent act and you shouldn’t have to see that. Now go. Study some maths while I take care of this, nah? Acha, beta.
Removes hoop earrings
Which are 22K
Smears vaseline on face
Gets to stompin’ in stiletto heels
“YEAH, you accidentally racist, hypocritical JERK! You pee sitting DOWN in MY HOUSE! And it IS my house! I’m Indian! THAT’S WHAT WE DO, MF! WE BUY HOUSES! WITH RESPONSIBLE MORTGAGES! WHICH WE PAY OFF EARLY! BIATCH!”
Oh, sorry, little ones. Didn’t know you were already back from mastering “Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos”. Drink some Bornevita, kozhandai. What’s that? You want Horlicks, instead? Why are you laughing? Because it sounds like “whore-licks”? Really? Well, at least that’s funnier than the pap Stein wrote. Now nom this Parle-G and get out ma face. Mama’s got WORK to do! That and the next part is ugly. I know. AGAIN.
Eventually, there were enough Indians in Edison to change the culture. At which point my townsfolk started calling the new Edisonians “dot heads.” One kid I knew in high school drove down an Indian-dense street yelling for its residents to “go home to India.” In retrospect, I question just how good our schools were if “dot heads” was the best racist insult we could come up with for a group of people whose gods have multiple arms and an elephant nose.
Joel,
though I’ve pretended to give you an episiotomy in this post, I want to say that I actually don’t care enough to mind that you exist. I could have overlooked this entire fustercluck if you hadn’t composed the paragraph above.
Why? Why did you write that?
Do you think it’s funny when someone talks about negotiating a great deal and they exclaim, “I jewed them down to almost nothing!” If you do think that’s funny, you’re pathetic because you know what? I find “Jewed” offensive. And I constantly call it out, just like in high school, when I’d wish people “Happy Holidays” whenever I was out shopping with my Jewish best friend, who wilted a little inwardly at the absent-minded “Merry Christmas”’ wished at two young girls who, truthfully, looked more like a Hindu and a Muslim than an Indian Christian and a Persian Jew.
I don’t like the term “Jewed” because it’s ugly. It trades in the worst stereotypes and assumptions about an entire group of people who don’t deserve to be disrespected and diminished by what is, at best, lazy phrasing and at worst, anti-Semitic poison, casually slipped in conversations like a roofie in our collective drink. Joel, I believe in the dignity of all people. I understand that words are powerful and that stereotypes are the preferred weapon of the uninformed and uncreative as well as the malicious and bigoted.
You “question” the quality of Edison’s schools because you think “Dot Head” was a mediocre epithet? Would “dotbusters” have been more suitable? Yeah, I know, wrong place. They slaughtered a “Dot Head” for the crime of being Indian over in Jersey City, not your precious, quondam white Edison.
I don’t give a shit.
The biggest problem I have with your inane, imbecilic piece is that it isn’t funny. Not even close to it.
I don’t think you are a racist. I truly don’t. But I do think that you don’t get it. That you fancy yourself to be far more “edgy” and “hilarious” than you actually are, because this…this TIME article is not funny. And this paragraph is exactly why I maintain such a position. You failed.
Isn’t all comedy offensive? Sure, a lot of it is. See: Chappelle show. I laughed four separate times during that consummately offensive video. Do you know what the difference between your “race com” and Dave’s is? Dave is funny. He is deft, artful, smart but most of all— he is Funny.
Your neighborhood racists’ inability to devise a better slur “for a group of people whose gods have multiple arms and an elephant nose” is neither funny, nor edgy. It’s disrespectful, ignorant and not even entirely accurate. What about a person with two arms and a prominent nose who lights a menorah? Because India has those, too. What thrilling invective should be hurled their way?
Unlike some of my friends in the 1980s, I liked a lot of things about the way my town changed: far better restaurants, friends dorky enough to play Dungeons & Dragons with me, restaurant owners who didn’t card us because all white people look old. But sometime after I left, the town became a maze of charmless Indian strip malls and housing developments. Whenever I go back, I feel what people in Arizona talk about: a sense of loss and anomie and disbelief that anyone can eat food that spicy.
This paragraph started off with so much promise; relatively speaking, that means you hadn’t stepped in shit up to your ankle. Then, you had to go there. Arizona, there. And no one even noticed your bizarre suggestion that “all white people look old”, because you had invoked the one state where your humor would play well.
So, the immigrants came and ruined everything, did they? With their “charmless” businesses which helped prop up Edison’s economy, even as they denied the township’s children opportunities to be junior thieves. I forgot to ask— what tribe are you a part of? You couldn’t possibly be the descendant of immigrants if you hold such exclusionary, retrograde views, so I’m assuming you are one of the only real Americans, because if you’re not an indigenous person, that would make you a giant, flaming hypocrite. And if you were an indigenous person and you held these views, well, I’d understand you a bit more but I’d still think you were a dick.
But enough about you, let’s talk about— you. Your piece, and specifically, those housing developments. Ugh. Who wants those. Better to have urban prairie, like Detroit or something. Also, you forgot to mention “curry”. Because all Indian houses smell like it, so surely these residential developments which you regret all exist under a puff of garam masala, yes? No? Head waggle, so? The whole reason the food is spicy is because of that curry cloud of powdered spice, wafting overhead, a reversal of the filth which orbits little Pig Pen’s feet.
You feel a “sense of loss” that your neighborhood isn’t a shrine to your memories of it? Join the damned club, accidental racist. The rest of us just accept that such evolution is a part of reality; we understand it, we don’t blame immigrants for it. And finally, what were you thinking, writing a column on Immigration and invoking “Arizona” within it, with your sympathies? Oh, right. Edgy.
Unlike previous waves of immigrants, who couldn’t fly home or Skype with relatives, Edison’s first Indian generation didn’t quickly assimilate (and give their kids Western names). But if you look at the current Facebook photos of students at my old high school, J.P. Stevens, which would be very creepy of you, you’ll see that, while the population seems at least half Indian, a lot of them look like the Italian Guidos I grew up with in the 1980s: gold chains, gelled hair, unbuttoned shirts. In fact, they are called Guindians. Their assimilation is so wonderfully American that if the Statue of Liberty could shed a tear, she would. Because of the amount of cologne they wear.
Okay, at this point, it’s 1am and I’m exhausted.
What the blood clot? Skype has been around for all of seven years. My parents arrived over thirty years before that. They didn’t have Skype but they did give their kids “Western” names because the “West” doesn’t have a monopoly on Christian nomenclature, you fucking fuck. And plenty of those immigrants who came in the late 60s DID assimilate, probably because they were 35 years ahead of Skype, but that’s irrelevant. You have TWO ethnic groups to insult now. The sad thing is, the whole “Guindian” phenomenon merits discussion and could spawn a whole other post, one which explores identity and emulation and NOT bad, racist attempts at wit.
And speaking of the “R”-bomb:
-despite your (apparently) being a member of a “minority” group
-just because you are not usually, actively racist
-even if it wasn’t your intention to sound so racist
-though you may have an Indian friend or three, who kissed your ass and boot-licked their way through some compliment of your…work…
IT WAS RACIST.
It was also ignorant, small-minded, cringe-inducing, embarrassing (for you) and classist. So please, in the future, just…desist.
I’ll let some of my beloved friends and readers school you as to how and why you stepped in it.
Erstwhile guest blogger (2006!) Maitri let Stein HAVE IT, in a missive to me. See?
Even if this were a simple observation on Joel Stein’s part of how his town has changed economically through the decades, he could have done it a bit differently. Case in point: “In retrospect, I question just how good our schools were if ‘dot heads’ was the best racist insult we could come up with for a group of people whose gods have multiple arms and an elephant nose.” Like these attributes of Hindu gods are insult-worthy. With this, Stein gave up the protection of self-deprecation and crossed that line. Why is it still so easy to do so?
Time Magazine ought to know better.
Said Brian, who was the FIRST of 26 of you to contact me about this:
To write an article in a publication such as TIME, that highlighted epithets (which the author himself thought weren’t creative or offensive enough) used to degrade children growing up in a country already feeling different is in bad taste.
Mimosa wrote:
Stein…starts to delineate how his town has fallen from a supposed “good old days” nostalgia, a place that was allegedly superior to the present. The associations made with Indians - their food, culture, and other ethnic practices - are framed as inferior to the ways of the gloried past. Racism is the belief that “race” itself determines human traits and capabilities, and that this quality is what pre-dates what is superior vs. inferior. By focusing on the way these “invaders” have deteriorated in the interim (strip malls filled with Indian grocery stores, movie theaters featuring only Bollywood films, gods and goddesses with their multiple arms and elephant noses), he takes a position of dominance, a position that there is only one narrative to be spun out of this hometown. Such a position is allied with the “raghead” comments stemming from the South Carolina GOP gubernatorial race, whereby GOP primary candidate Nikki Haley and President Obama were attacked for their supposed religious affiliations (nevermind that the rhetoric was completely flawed and ignorant).
But really, what bothers me about this piece, why it didn’t strike me as satire, is that it seems to assume that there really is a dominant narrative out there, i.e. that “white” culture is where it’s at. Assimilation is not an option, it’s a requirement for these rude new aliens - but of course, that assimilation is on the dominant narratives terms.
So…if any of your friends missed this hullabaloo in the Sepia orchard, just send them Mimosa’s thoughts. That way we deprive this fucker of page views. Our outrage has made this…uh…”story”…both the “Most Read” and “Most Emailed” links on TIME.com. Ugh. We are rewarding his stupidity.
Mihir buzzed this:
…so basically he is saying Indians are ok if they fit into his neat little white upper middle class template, and maybe stay under, say 20% of the population. In other words he’s ok with Oak Brook or perhaps Naperville but hates Devon Avenue. It’s unfortunate that he believed that Edison would forever be like 1989…the race/class-infused nostalgia just seems immature to me for a supposedly educated writer.
Of course he’s saying that. There are even Desis who say that. They just have the good manners and education to know that they are elitist douchebags and they keep that shit on lock. They don’t clutter up a once venerable magazine with their snobbery. Also? EDISON IS LIKE, FULL OF INDIANS! And you thought I’d forget…
Said Aditi, whose family, like mine, has subscribed to TIME for years:
Reading it made me feel defensive and frustrated at how mocking Indians has become such an easy target—the SNL skit a few months ago, Text ‘n’ Talk for PCS, Sanjeev the web designer in some insurance— without requiring anything to be actually funny. Just mock the accent, our immigrant ambitions and our gods….the Arizona reference was straight up Ridiculous.
And lest you think this is a bunch of minorities whining about getting their feelings hurt, read this, from Rachel Kipp, an editor in Philadelphia.
“If it’s satire, but nobody laughs, then it’s not satire.”
Maybe since Rachel isn’t Indian, Joel will value her words more! I know one thing— don’t ever change, Rachel. No, seriously, don’t. Because if you do, Joel Stein will write a bad column about it, for TIME.
My friend RR did an excellent job of conveying how many of us felt after reading this, via my FB profile:
I have to wonder, if a similar article was written about Latinos or African Americans if TIME would have the balls to publish it? If they did, wouldn’t all hell break lose? Wouldn’t this be something that NPR and everyone else would be talking about? Is it because Indians are too small a minority and too “passive ” to actually fight back? Some how I feel like the nerdy Indian kid in high school all over again.
Meanwhile, over on Twitter, AngryBrownGirl drew my attention to the next phase of this drama:
Did you guys check out Joel’s FB post? Apparently not expecting such a reaction? Give me a break!
It’s true; his Facebook page was updated with a status message which…wasn’t helpful. See for yourself:
Didn’t meant to insult Indians with my column this week. Also stupidly assumed their emails would follow that Gandhi non-violence thing.
Someone in the bunker thought that was so amusing, they felt sorry for Stein. I just gloated over the “stupid”, since his entire column was. Also? Edison. Indians. Lots of. Oy, I’m tired.
I’ll let Maitri fire off some parting shots for me, because she’s a hot geologist with a way with words and her ire isn’t just aimed at Stein— she’s gunning for some of you. Watch out now:
Yet, still, hitherto, even at this point, I can dismiss the whole article as noise. What really cooks me here is not Stein’s provincialism or even how easy it still is to use Indians as the butt of jokes. It’s the Indian-Americans, the ones who keep their heads down, “adjust” and don’t make waves, who will tell us not to be so sensitive and to shrug it off. “Let them say what they want. We should not internalize these things and let them bother us. Grow a sense of humor.” Because of their being doormats, it is easy for the Steins of the world to give ink to the Wholly Unnecessary. They make it so easy to do so. No more. I’m an American. The residents of Edison have been Americans for longer than Stein’s had a column. They don’t need this. Fuck you if you CAN take a “joke.”
Word. This born-American citizen is over and out. Let the wild rumpus begin.




When someone wrote to me: So, what tribe are you from Pocahontas? I laughed. That's funny. Joel Stein isn't clever or witty. And need I point out the irony of a Jewish man sounding like Adolf Hitler? You'd think another ethnic group that had been mistreated would have a little more sensitivity.
Hmmm... I still don't see why you think it isn't funny. I think it's quite hillarious, especially the 'Guindians' bit. You guys thought Drop it like a FOB was pretty funny and I laughed along. Wait! did our TIME columnist just cross the line between brown on brown intolerant humor and white on brown intolerant humor? NOW I get it!
I liked the title too, but am lacking a bit in knowledge of musical references, so all that came to mind was a movie I haven't seen yet about two male hustlers played by Keanu Reeves and River Phoenix. And Guindians, gosh I hope some of them start showing up on TV in a Jersey Burbs-type reality series, to be followed by many late night show and red carpet appearances.
Joe Stein, if you're reading this...
See, what you should have done is made some jokes about prophet Muhammad being pedobear and Muslims being too sensitive and then opened up a Facebook page and urged people to submit drawings of the koran with shit on it...and you would have been hailed as the western ideal of free speech and the Muslims who found those pages offensive would have been presented on this site as backward (lol, Pakistan bans FB, lol).
The more you know :-). You're welcome.
People like Stein puts the whole Jewish community down. I will apologize for his crime. Jews are very good people, don't let this one man make you think otherwise. Thank you.
One minor thing to keep in mind is that the bloggers don't speak with one voice. One Mutineer may have found that funny, another, offensive, a third, annoying, a fourth, cute...etc. There wasn't even agreement on this TIME piece! Many of the people who are contributing to SM now were not part of it when that video was blogged. So it's a little problematic to issue a blanket "You guys thought..."
1) Anna, how could anyone not like Private Idaho, the most fun B-52 song after Rock Lobster.
2) The Joel Stein piece was weird. I couldn't get a sense of what he was trying to communicate. It's like he wanted to rant about how those damn Indians ruined the nostalgic memories of his town only to realize there were things he didn't mind about the transition and a certain defensiveness also crept in where he felt obligated to add some nice things to say or he would be branded a racist.
3) having said that, he was spot on when he talked about the changing nature of Indian immigration. I too used to think all Indian immigrants were brilliant until I ventured out to NJ in the 90s.
4) And Edison's Indian storefronts can be ugly. But hey, it sure beats boarded up areas because of lack of business.
5) Joel Stein should stick to superficial observations on VH1's I love the whatever decade series they have on whenever VH1 has time to veer away from their crappy reality shows.
AGREED- check out my rant at 8asians.
http://www.8asians.com/2010/06/29/time-columnist-dislikes-indians-indians-not-a-fan-of-joel-stein-either/
WORST PARTS OF HIS RANT---
"In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants brought their even-less-bright cousins, and we started to understand why India is so damn poor.”
Cant believe he thought 'dot head' wasnt racist enough:
"In retrospect, I question just how good our schools were if “dot heads” was the best racist insult we could come up with for a group of people whose gods have multiple arms and an elephant nose.”
Thanks for this Anna. I was actually checking Sepia Mutiny as soon as I read Stein's piece, and you lived up to my expectations!
It was definitely racist. But I don't think I particularly felt offended. I just thought it was poorly written. Not funny. I was mostly lost.
Wait, why can't this generation of white children, those want to learn crime, steal from Indian stores? Surely, criminals are not racist. That wouldn't stop them. right? Or is that the joke? What?
Interesting that TIME International isn't running the column. Is it because as a "model minority" in this country, Indian-Americans won't raise issue with this but abroad, it wouldn't be received as well?
I guess all of that shoplifting training paid off - TIME gave him money for nothing and we're giving him shits for free.
Russell Peters he is not.
He is free to make lame racist jokes. And we are free to non-violently comment that they are lame and racist.
I didn't even know much about this chap until i read this post ... @sshole? yeah .. funny? NO! but there are some issues in that article that even I, while being brown, can see .. viz. if you happened to be at Rutgers, you can see the mobs of gelled-up blown-back-hair desi guidos trying to ape the original ones in their full glory ... the SERC building would always be one of the hotspots ... any desi who wasn't like them, was automatically an unworthy, uncool FOB ...
I didn't even know much about this chap until i read this post ... @sshole? yeah .. funny? NO! but there are some issues in that article that even I, while being brown, can see .. viz. if you happened to be at Rutgers, you can see the mobs of gelled-up blown-back-hair desi guidos trying to ape the original ones in their full glory ... the SERC building would always be one of the hotspots ... any desi who wasn't like them, was automatically an unworthy, uncool FOB ...
Oh my God, that's completely sickening. And to think he didn't even seem to feel any remorse later, on FB.
Another thing that bothered me about the article is that we somehow failed Stein's initial rose-colored view of Indians as some sort of uber-race of doctors and engineers. We began to "bring over" the "losers" like the merchants and business owners and then they brought over the next "lower" rung of Indian humanity. And this somehow explains India's poverty, (which is in itself a wholly wretched and unfunny subject)?
I didn't know that immigration was restricted to a certain tier of people. I will also bitchslap the next person who says to me, "You people are so smart." You people. All so smart. No, we're not. And, thanks, we set ourselves up for failure very nicely all by ourselves and don't need you to do it.
I like the response on this site a lot. http://www.currybear.com/wordpress/?p=4619
Can't believe TIME paid Stein to write this coming of age ramble even if the piece had been politically correct.
The magazine is downmarketing itself with such narrowminded perspectives. The article is racist.
It will be interesting to see if anyone complains about the article directly by writing a Letter to the Editor, and if Stein responds in the magazine. He could even echo his fb page.
I have to say that a mithai place with a red Pizza Hut roof is kind of awkward http://www.sukhadia.com/images/sukhadia_iselin.jpg
@SM Intern - I take the 'you people' back. All I am saying is that I have seen waaay more brown on brown bigotry in the US than white on brown or black on brown etc. If you were to take a quick headcount here of how many of us teased and shrunk away from FOBs or still caricature them on a regular basis, I'm sure you wouldn't be shocked by the result. So again A) This article is not a lot worse than what many brown people do - and I have yet to see a post here or on any desi blog about that. B) while it's not super funny (except for the aforementioned Guindians bit) it's not crazily offensive compared to our own stereotypes so really chill the fish out...
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1997936,00.html
I'm more offended by this.
That's tantamount to white people saying it's ok to say the n-word because "they call each other that."
I got the impression it was a (poorly) written version of a roast...sort of a 'you're collectively down' now, so ripping on you is cool. While that's charming and all in a bent sort of way, it's still weak and unwelcome and pretty racialist. Yes, racialist, not racist.
I also find nostalgia for the 'good old days' funny - many (white) americans pine for the
50s and 60s as if it was all American Graffiti and Rebel Without a Cause, and yet
forget that it wasn't so fun and peachy for women and minorities at that time.
When Obama's parents got married it was still illegal in some states - this
wasn't that long ago. I will always think of this when I step into a retro diner.
This article has the same theme - the good old days meaning less foreigners.
Would he have preferred some big box stores coming in and putting the local
businesses out of work - would he have had the same satirical wrath for a generic,
non-Indian strip mall anchored by Home Depots and Wal-Marts and Applebees ?
Oh - and to state that the latest wave of migrants is stupider and explaining why
India is poor - how is that even remotely funny - are the Time editors asleep ?
You could use the same twisted logic and say that this must explain why the latest
generation of 'real Americans', so far removed from their Mayflower descendants are
ignorant and lazy, no ? But that would be quite a generalization. And that's not satire.
Long Indian: All I am saying is that I have seen waaay more brown on brown bigotry in the US than white on brown or black on brown etc. If you were to take a quick headcount here of how many of us teased and shrunk away from FOBs or still caricature them on a regular basis
Brown on brown bigotry is disgusting but doesn't excuse what Stein said. In fact, practitioners of said bigotry and the associated guilt is what tells us not to react to articles like this, swallow our pride and take it out on the next person down the pole. It's why aunties and uncles will sit at parties and not say a thing against white people but will take the first opportunity to refer to Obama as a monkey (I've started calling them on this, by the way). Screw that noise.
Allow me to vehemently disagree :)
This was not a racist article. It was clearly, CLEARLY intended to be sharply sarcastic and witty. One can argue that Stein hits in some places and misses in more. If we want to come down on him and say "stick to your day job Stein," I am all for that. His intent was not to be racist though. I have been writing about racist or bigoted incidents involving the South Asian community here since 2004. When something is bigoted or racist I'll be the first to call it out. Geez, some of our comment threads contain more blatant bigotry than people are accusing Stein of. This article reminds me of what happens when a white, hispanic, desi, etc. guy that lives in "the hood" (or pretends to) uses the "n" word. As an African American you might be like "whoa, that's our word, you shouldn't use that word. That's wrong." That's true, nobody should use that word, but the word has been used. Often the INTENT of the user, however unfunny and wrong, wasn't malicious. They are just assuming insider status illegitimately. Similarly, in Stein's essay I got the distinct impression that he probably has Indian American friends and decided that gave him the right to write like one. Slightly misguided? Yes. Racist? Come on people! This part in particular had me smiling with a "true dat:"
People that are offended by this article are offended, I feel, for one of two reasons:
1) You don't understand humor or sarcasm, or feel someone should be punished unless their humor or sarcasm is up to your high standards.
2) People are upset that Joel is speaking with the type of bravado about a subject that he doesn't have the right to because he isn't South Asian. If a brown guy had written this article we wouldn't have had 30 people email us about it.
And I find is shocking and discouraging that the very first commenter on THIS very SM comment thread illustrated Godwin's law by comparing Stein (a Jew) to Hitler. Offensive Pot meet offensive kettle.
And I found this part funny too:
He is saying that the bigots are too ignorant to even be properly racist. How do people not get this??
I'm glad this article was brought to light, but this post could have been half the length. The heavy-handed hyperbole just got to be too much for me to focus on the article and the issue at hand. I mean no offense, but Anna, you're a talented and thoughtful writer and make great points, but you don't have to try nearly this hard to infuse the post with soooo much "brown-ness" to get them across.
Hmmm. So if brown people are ignorant or rude to each other, it's fine for whites or others to demean us, as well? No. One does not enable or validate the other.
Well if you didn't see it, it doesn't exist! Check the archives. All six years of them. I'm too tired to find evidence for someone flippant.
But just so you know-- we are the blog that decided to NOT use the term "FOB" a few years ago because it was disrespectful, as disrespectful as "ABCD", if not moreso. That is why we use the terms "ABD" and "DBD". I see your assumptions, and raise you with truth.
You chill "the fish out" if you'd like, I would prefer not to. More realistically, I've had less than four hours of sleep AND it's a sweltering hot summer, so I'm not going to "chill" anytime soon, no matter what someone anonymous suggests, even if Brown-on-brown nastiness is a real problem. I guess the next time someone Sikh gets threatened for having a turban, they should chuckle and think of that one time Anand Jon was a douchenozzle to Julie Titus. Do you see how that barely makes sense?
I just finished reading Joel Steins article: My Own Private India.
To say the least I was stunned. How can Time Magazine allow such a racist diatribe in its magazine? If you have any doubts as to the level of prejudice and intolerance that is evident in the article, I have a suggestion. Wherever Mr. Stein references either Indians, Indian culture, restaurants or people, simply substitute Jews, Blacks or Latinos.
Change the ethnic group, but keep the same words. I quote:
"Then, in the 1980s, the doctors and engineers brought over their merchant cousins, and we were no longer so sure about the genius thing. In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants brought their even-less-bright cousins, and we started to understand why India is so damn poor."
"But sometime after I left, the town became a maze of charmless Indian strip malls and housing developments. Whenever I go back, I feel what people in Arizona talk about: a sense of loss and anomie and disbelief that anyone can eat food that spicy." " But if you look at the current Facebook photos of students at my old high school, J.P. Stevens, which would be very creepy of you, you'll see that, while the population seems at least half Indian, a lot of them look like the Italian Guidos I grew up with in the 1980s: gold chains, gelled hair, unbuttoned shirts. In fact, they are called Guindians. Their assimilation is so wonderfully American that if the Statue of Liberty could shed a tear, she would. Because of the amount of cologne they wear." (in this quote Mr. Stein decides to take a shot at my heritage - substitute a pjorative for Jews or blacks for "guidos- A little double standard?)
"At which point my townsfolk started calling the new Edisonians "dot heads."
There are more. However, it is the tenor of the entire article that is offensive. It is a lame attempt at humor. It doesn't work. Substituting "high end" vices for the run of the mill variety does not justify the offense. It does not qualify as satire. It's simply an ignorant airing of every stereotype that comes to mind. Mr. Stein should be fired. He displays an intolerance, arrogance and down-right ignorance that should not be given a forum in Time Magazine.
Did anybody feel the same way that they did after MacacaGate? I know I did. And like we did then, it's important that we make express our distaste to the public. I doubt we'll be changing Joel Stein's perspective on anything, but I'd be much happier if the next time a column like this was submitted to a major publication, it gets rejected.
Great job Anna!
That's absolutely fair and I am so glad that you didn't see the first version of this post, which was even longer. Still, I am always grateful for constructive, helpful feedback, so thank you. In my defense, I'd point to the timestamp-- at 4am, it's not easy to edit when you're seeing two laptops in front of you, from exhaustion. :)
Again, see: timestamp. At that obscene hour, I wasn't trying, the irritation was just flowing freely. Also...you do realize that this entire blog is infused with soooo much brown-ness, right? ;)
Oh hells no. How can we possibly compare this to Macacagate?? Even Biden's donut comment was maybe worse than this.
All right, Mutineers. Thank you for the civil comment thread thus far-- I'm late for a conference so I'm crossing my fingers that you will all continue to be kind to each other. I'll pop in at lunch if I can, otherwise, after work. :) Also, if you'd like to contact me directly, feel free to email me or FB message me.
To be fair, I didn't even think of it that much about it being racist (apart from casting some stereotypes and using misnomers) until I read this post :D
and guindians isn't even the accurate slang used to describe guido-like indians ...
Abhi:
This
Whenever I go back, I feel what people in Arizona talk about: a sense of loss and anomie and disbelief that anyone can eat food that spicy.
is not "just assuming insider status illegitimately." I don't think he considers himself an insider. The whole point of the article is the difference between him and his Edison and the culture that has supplanted it.
When folks invite me to a party in which white people are dressed as Indians in diapers and brownface, is that also assuming insider status illegitimately? This level of discourse, that it's so easy to pick on Indians and paint them as other is so old and worth discouraging in the dominant American vernacular.
Paul Mooney gets it right.
It was simply not funny.
Quite frankly, I think there is way too much serious overanalysis over a sloppily written article which seemed more suitable for a personal blog than a magazine. However, people in diapers at a costume party??? Now, I wish I confronted such a moron.
Thank you for putting most of my thoughts into words, and including those of others that filled in the rest. TIME just fell off my radar, which is sad. It takes decades to build a reputation, and a single very stupid stupid move to ruin it (see Toyota).
I found his whole article so unfunny, and so...old...no, unoriginal, that it got me thinking. I realized it's the same crap I've heard about how all of us awful "fags" kept coming into dilapidated neighborhoods and adding our time, money, and design sense to actually *gay gasp* RAISE everyone's property value! How horrible that the whole town should be overrun with people so hell-bent on changing the culture! I can't understand why many people in this country (and Americans aren't alone in this) can't see that the influence of one's culture into yours is a sign of comfort, of a desire to be a part of your culture by sharing a part of theirs. It's not an invasion, it's a reciprocation.
I went through the article and changed most of the infantile epithets and sterotypes to those that are typically used to denigrate those like me, and found the article changed little. The businesses geared toward Indian influences all became french bistros, hair dressers, and flower shops, but the effect was the same.
That's why it sounded so old to me, even though I'm not Indian, and didn't grow up in area with a great deal of Indian cultural influence or people. It's the same old, tired, ignorant crap I've been hearing my whole life in this country.
And we wonder why many other countries hate us. It's not because of our freedom - in my opinion, it's because we are GUARANTEED this freedom, and articles like Stein's are what many of us choose to do with it.
Is Stein the same guy who appears on VH1's various countdown and pop culture shows like "I Love the 80s"? If so, he's painfully unfunny on those as well.
Wow did someone just delete my last comment? I'll say it again just to be sure...
@ANNA
My anonymity doesn't affect the relevance of my views, and the author's race doesn't necessarily(in my book) affect the offensiveness of his. You don't have to chill given the weather and all, but you don't need to call me flippant either. I have been an SM reader for many years and linked to a FOB post in my first reply on this discussion (#2).
I did raise you the truth when I said "If you were to take a quick headcount here of how many of us("you" actually, because I only have been visiting the US for the last 10 years) teased and shrunk away from FOBs or still caricature them on a regular basis, I'm sure you wouldn't be shocked by the result."
Again: All I am saying is that I don't get this political correctness, when it comes to humor or attempted humor. oh and from the anti-troll message above this box "Requests for celebrities' contact info or homework assistance; racist, abusive, illiterate, content-free or commercial comments; personal, non-issue-focused flames; intolerant or anti-secular comments; and long, obscure rants may be deleted. Unless they’re funny. It’s all good then."
I really wonder if Stein's ever been to Arizona? Because I had one of the best briyanis I've ever eaten in Arizona.
Overall, I read his article and thought to myself, "What a whinerbaby this dude is."
Joel Stein's article was poorly written and unfunny. I am writing this from Edison, NJ, my hometown, and I am a young Jersey-born Kalabari Nigerian man whose neighbors are predominantly Gujurati, Maharashtran, Punjabi, Bengali and South Indian women, men and children. This place is just as much a part of the America we all share as anywhere else, including the whiter areas of Metuchen and South Plainfield, the blacker areas of Rahway or Plainfield, or the browner areas of Perth Amboy or New Brunswick in Central Jerz. The anxiety at the root of contemporary white backlash thought, even when presented seemingly benignly in Joel Stein's case, is predicated on the sense that "their America" is being lost, and they say "they want their country back." It didn't go anywhere. The narrative that America proper is, has been or should be construed as a white country has always been patently false. So now this guy is bemoaning a "Desi Heaven" here in Edison in the way people like him might bemoan the existence of a "Nigger Heaven" in Harlem, Newark or Central Brooklyn. This is part of the landscape and as much a part of the American narrative as anywhere else, and it is not special. But it certainly is not a social space where the hegemony of "Westernness" or "whiteness" finds currency, and it never should be - and that is what threatens the backlashers and racists. Joel Stein's poor humor in this piece is a veiled attempt to exclude so-called "immigrants" (in the contemporary sense, black and brown peoples from the third world) from the cultural, political, and social centerspaces. To him, Edison and any place where non-European-Americans are highly visible are seen as "not all-American" or even "un-American." All thoughtful people of color should call out and oppose this tendency, which marginalizes and invites exclusion and worse.
among others the comment on correspondingly lower caliber immigrants coming over
is quite scary because its elitist and callous
You didn't? Uncle Sam isn't rolling out the red carpet for Polish plumbers. The general American attitude about immigration has evolved from favoring Europeans to favoring educated people.
I think Stein was agreeing with you on this point. The "stupid uncle" paragraph seemed a pretty effective disavowal of his own model minority nonsense. Mr. Stein is Jewish, so he is probably well aware of how quickly positive biases transform into negative ones. Frankly I have no desire to fight back on this point. Good on Mr. Stein for discarding the stereotype, even a positive one. He ends on a sour note, calling India poor. But that's not a stereotype. It's a fact that flies in the face of the model minority myth.
Very well-written response. Just the right dose of Stein's own medicine.
Scary is its linked to policy and politics, for example in immigration. On the other hand, its true after a certain point the model minority myth is not tenable...although how that interacts with poverty in India isn't clear. Bottom line if it was funny it wouldn't warrant a discussion, but its not, so it does. Most biting satirists do so from the left, maybe bc if its not done well, its just meanspirited laughing at the poors
Another kumbaya singing tolerant "liberal" shows his true colors. He would not dare write such a thing about hispanics or african black immigrants.
Offensive articles like this in a major national mag ("Time") just proves to me that we (desis) need to insert/climb/claw our way up to decision-making positions in the media (TV, movies, newspapers, etc.) I have only met TWO young ladies (Bangladeshi-Americans) who work in (book) publishing field in NYC. They are bright, hard-working girls in early 20s, but not yet leaders. Where are the decision-making desis at "Time"? Are there any? If so, are the selling-out? Hmmm...
4 am or not, this was absolutely amazing. Thanks so much for writing this, Anna. I canceled my Time subscription years ago.
Why is India poor and what is its poverty? Stein's sentiment seems to be its because that's all the bulk of its population is capable of
I don't think Joel Stein's column is racist, but I do think it just isn't funny enough for people to give him the benefit of doubt. That's the risk you take when you try to write humor about serious issues. He won't be the first humorist to fail in that regard (I should know).
It was funny until that last bit -- which made it unfunny. How about " ... and we started to understand why there was a line outside the astrologist's shop."
Anna: submit this to TIME.
I actually loved this little article. When you peel away the mediocre writing and teenage sarcasm, what you are left with is the desparation of someone unwilling to accept that he has lost control. Joel Stein looks at Edison and sees unwelcome change. Despite writing for Time, graduating from Stanford, and being a California Liberal Jew, he's no different than any Xenophobe. It's the same reason the Birthers hate Obama or "No Irish Need Apply" signs were all over Boston in the 19th century. It's an age-old narrative.
Joel Stein is not regaling us with his rapier wit; he's writing with his heart on his sleeve. He's scared. He's always been scared, except now at 40 y/o he's got the balls and the venue to express himself. It's not our fault you lost control, Joel.
Hello Mutineers,
When I first read Mr. Stein's article, I was amused. His article was hilarious, and to me at least, very UNOFFENSIVE. It was witty, cute, and accurate. We all know exactly what he was talking about.
Here's a question that I'd like to pose onto you.
1. Mr. Stein comments on how the Indian-owned businesses are not so attractive looking. I've been to Devon Street in Chicago, and I've been to Edison/Iselin. I think that I can relate to what he's saying. The other communities, such as Chinese, Italians, Ashkenazi Jews, etc. - all have enhanced the landscape and architectural landscape of whatever city they live in. Indians don't enhance the beauty of a town, from what I've seen. We do, however, decrease the crime, convert by gentrification very dangerous places to very safe ones (i.e. Queens and Jackson Heights), and yes, we make so much money, but we don't enhance the land. We come here as RENTERS and not fully integrated property-owners.
So how would *YOU* politely address the fact that Indian-owned businesses are, at best, devoid of character and charm?
2. His article seems to acknowledge that we've become so American, and our immigrant experience is a quintessential American experience. He notes how our experience has matured, by among other ways, pointing out how less skilled workers come here over time. Also, that the Indian youths are developing their own culture on the college campuses. This is remarkable, if you ask me. So, basically, his article seems to be our debutante experience as Americans - even though many of us have been here for 40+ years.
What kind of witty, sarcastic article would *YOU* write about?
I agree with Abhi.
I think Stein is as much talking about class issues within the Indian immigrant community as he is making a comment about the strangeness of a neighborhood's transformation into a mini-India. He's not lamenting the disappearance of white people from Iselin, he's saying "wow, this is strange, but what was here before isn't really worth mourning..."
Take a look at this passage again:
There are plenty of people within the Indian community (either established immigrants, or second gens/ABDs) who talk exactly like this about more recent immigrants. Let's take a look in the mirror, shall we?
The offensive part is of course at the end -- "and we started to understand why India is so damn poor." No, India is poor for other reasons. It's fair (to me, anyway) to make a joke about wanna be stylish desi men wearing silk shirts and too much hair-product/cologne. But this last part steps over the line. There is too much human suffering behind those four words ("India is so damn poor") to think of joking about it.
The only thing funny related to Stein is that he has taught a class in humor writing at Princeton. The dude has been consistently unfunny and this article is a good example of his alleged humor. I bring all this up only to point that I don’t have much love for the man’s work. There are some problematic areas in this article, but the overall response here is a bit over-the-top. I don’t get the racist vibe, just weak writing and superficial observations. It’s not all that different from that desi woman Amardeep wrote about a while ago, who equated pole dancing classes and buying expensive grocery to being a modern Amrican woman.
A letter to Mr. Stein:
I always enjoy a good conversation about my town, ethnicity, and heritage. Consequently, your article in Time, “My Own Private India”, was a must read. I am compelled to say, however, you give Edison’s Indian-American population much more credit than they deserve. A prime example - The Indian-Americans who teach people how to reboot their Internet routers are part of a totally separate phenomenon. It is commonly referred to as “Silicon Valley”.
We will, however, plead guilty where appropriate. The young Edisonians indeed have nowhere to learn crime. We thought it would be wise to instead support the efforts of several top-rated educational institutions, i.e., John P. Stevens High School and The Wardlaw Hartridge School. Strange set of priorities, you say? Well, it must be the effects of worshipping gods with multiple arms and an elephant nose, right?
The over-consumption of spicy food has also led to some bizarre results. We quickly realized the need for superb medical care and strategically placed physicians in some of the metro area’s most prestigious hospitals. It doesn’t end there though. To ensure that the purchase of gold chains doesn’t take away from our ability to contribute to town initiatives, we maintain a household income that is almost 20% above New Jersey’s median.
Some other things that might help calm your fears — Edison was ranked one of the best places to grow up in the entire nation by U.S. News & World Report. According to Money Magazine, it is also one of the best places to live in America. Maybe you should write to them and set them straight?
While you’re at it, share your research on “why India is so damn poor” with the Central Intelligence Agency. They have this crazy notion that India is the fifth largest economy in the world in terms of purchasing power.
In all seriousness, immigrants gave birth to America. I’m not sure what you had in mind for the future of “your town”. If you can’t stomach the changes in Edison, I’d strongly advise you not to travel around the nation — You might find that America “is totally unfamiliar to you”.
I sincerely can not understand why intelligent South Asians such as the ones who take the time to read and craft considerate responses on this blog would think that it is "OK" to condone a piece such as this in a nationally-run, mainstream publication. Joel Stein did not write this piece as sophisticated commentary on the evolution of a model minority. It is his job create sardonic humor for TIME magazine. He took the easy way out and picked a group that would give him a pass when he stepped over the line. Joel Stein isn't stupid. He knows he stepped over the line and did it for two reasons... 1) South Asians wouldn't complain, really 2) He really hates the way his home town has changed.
If you think this is "UNOFFENSIVE", I promise you that there will be many "UNOFFENSIVE" pieces such as this in the future in TIME and other mainstream media outlets
No disrespect to the folks on here but South Asians don't speak out because they are to worried about being looked at as trouble makers. I don't think people should let him get away with it give him an ear full. Haters going to hate anyway.
59 · Krishna Shah on June 29, 2010 1:14 PM
"...we maintain a household income that is almost 20% above New Jersey’s median."
This is remarkable, given that NJ is the richest state in the USA on a per capita basis!
While you’re at it, share your research on “why India is so damn poor” with the Central Intelligence Agency. They have this crazy notion that India is the fifth largest economy in the world in terms of purchasing power.
India is the 4th largest economy in the world based on PPP, brother Krishna.
Guys, I personally thought that the SNL skit about "Ravish" was quite offensive. The main culprit of that skit was the person who played Ravish. She was an Iranian J*w. I think that I'm noticing something that I told myself that I wasn't going to notice. Ravish was played by an Iranian J*w, and Joel Stein is an Ashkenazi J*w. Am I looking too much into this?
Yes you are looking too much into it. And Jew is not a cussword that you have to bleep it.
" The offensive part is of course at the end -- "and we started to understand why India is so damn poor." No, India is poor for other reasons. It's fair (to me, anyway) to make a joke about wanna be stylish desi men wearing silk shirts and too much hair-product/cologne. But this last part steps over the line. There is too much human suffering behind those four words ("India is so damn poor") to think of joking about "
Exactly my sentiments. That line was the part of the article that bothered me the most; as if it was possible to attribute the poverty of a whole nation to the " even-less-bright cousins" of merchants, engineers etc. Stein’s line of reasoning reminds me of the earlier theories on economic development that claim poverty in the 3rd world can be explained by the characteristics of ‘3rd world’ people themselves( i.e their non Western culture), not external or historical conditions.
Also, I think someone else mentioned how easily it is for 'good' stereotypes to become negative ones; it seems that the discovery that Indians (like other people) can occupy an entire range and class professions, and encompass both smart and less-smart people was shocking enough to write a whole article about. Further proof that all stereotyping is just lame.
" The offensive part is of course at the end -- "and we started to understand why India is so damn poor." No, India is poor for other reasons. It's fair (to me, anyway) to make a joke about wanna be stylish desi men wearing silk shirts and too much hair-product/cologne. But this last part steps over the line. There is too much human suffering behind those four words ("India is so damn poor") to think of joking about "
Exactly my sentiments. That line was the part of the article that bothered me the most; as if it was possible to attribute the poverty of a whole nation to the " even-less-bright cousins" of merchants, engineers etc.
That to me also was the most disgusting part of the article. I would assume that Mr. Stein ancestors come from Europe, where a large percentage of Jewish populations lived in abject poverty or serfdom, such as in Russia. Really were those Jewish populations that poor b/c they weren't bright? Did all their cousins who came and lived in tenements and faced xenophobia and poverty in lower eastside Jewish quarters in nyc suddenly grow a brain. What a stupid, stupid thing to say, especially considering the abject poverty of many Jewish populations in Europe.
Quick clarification on the infamous "Dotbusters" of Jersey City......while what they did was vile and inexcusable, they did not kill Navroze Mody.
Mody did live in Jersey City, up in the Heights, but he was beaten into a coma a few miles away in Hoboken by a group of Hispanic teens.
Over the years, given how the awful event of his fatal beating happened so close to the time the Dotbusters August 5, 1987 letter was published in the Jersey Journal, the group and the man have become inextricably connected.
As a side note:
It's interesting to me that Joel Stein talking about India's poverty generates much commentary and is offensive to many people, while an actual story talking about India's poverty (Ravi's post on NREGA, preceding this one) generates virtually no comments and no discussion.
Maybe Joel Stein is mad that his job is about to be outsourced.
Joel Stein talking about India's poverty generates much commentary and is offensive to many people
I don't think this is surprising that is draws such offense. Stein isn't talking (analyzing, thinking) about India's poverty, he's basically saying poverty = stupidity...; I guess he thinks his ancestors were pretty dumb too. That's pretty scary. Also scary is the idea that somehow a plumber or merchant (blue collar work) is dumber than doctors...more educated, more affluent, but stupid? America and most other places of the world are built from blue-collar work and there's nothing wrong with it. He is essentializing the poor - let him say that about Africa or African-Americans or the blue collar workers, white and black in his town, and he'll find out how out of sync his comments are.
on another side note - Doug, I don't know if I'd say that Indians are not active. For such a tiny population and such recent immigrants we've got a pretty vocal left, who are all up in arms about denying the model minority myth and supporting affirmative action and going political whether right or left. African Americans and Latinos have very large numbers that affect the pockets of those with items to sell...so yeah, I'm not really convinced at all that Indians are complacent.
I agree with Abhi. This article was clearly sarcastic:
"To figure out why it bothered me so much, I talked to a friend of mine from high school, Jun Choi, who just finished a term as mayor of Edison. Choi said that part of what I don't like about the new Edison is the reduction of wealth, which probably would have been worse without the arrival of so many Indians, many of whom, fittingly for a town called Edison, are inventors and engineers. And no place is immune to change. In the 11 years I lived in Manhattan's Chelsea district, that area transformed from a place with gangs and hookers to a place with gays and transvestite hookers to a place with artists and no hookers to a place with rich families and, I'm guessing, mistresses who live a lot like hookers. As Choi pointed out, I was a participant in at least one of those changes. We left it at that."
Every place changes, and the Indian influx actually helped prevent Edison from getting poorer.
The article wasn't perfect, but it's clearly satire. Getting offended like this would be more meaningful if it wasn't coming from a people that is pretty racist against every other race. Or people coming from a nation that doesn't sell so much Fair & Lovely whitening cream. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-9tcXpW1DE
Or people coming from a nation that doesn't sell so much Fair & Lovely whitening cream.
Eyeroll...really that's supposed to make it okay b/c Indians like other Asians and yes, Africans, Middle Easterners, South Americans use bleaching? B/c someone in someone's particular population uses bleaching, than an idiot like Stein can make offensive remarks about me. And for me, I don't think that if an Indian necessarily prefers light skin that makes it racist. I see light and dark skin as part of the Indian phenotype and you can have preferences within a population's traits.
And Indians are racist? Sure some are, some aren't. Last I heard, war is ravaging many of the world (oh outside of India and South Asia) based on tribal, religious, hair texture lines. So please spare me with the b/c some Indians are racist that that means anybody can say anything offensive about Indians. Guess what lots of Jewish people, whites, Africans, Middle Eastersn and other Asians are racist too. Why don't we just get rid of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, b/c I'm sure there's someone in those minority populations that come from racist, casteist, tribalistic, cultural values.
I am sick of people using sarcasm and humor as shields for their obnoxiousness or bigotry. It's not okay. And they're not funny. They deserve to be called out. And people who were bothered by this don't deserve to be invalidated.
Amardeep that's tenuous as marker, although it seems to have some currency....what do you think number of comments on a story suggests about peoples reaction to the story? It could be people feel the comment section is an appropriate place to opine about one topic, but not another. For one, Nrega may much less familiar and some may hesitate to think commenting on a policy of the government of India's policy on a blog is going to amount to much substanial. Doubt we will hash out anything close to a beginning of a solution to the problems in a comment section. For what its worth, glad its being written about
Another reason to never give this sort of thing a pass is because it's about space and territory and who dominates it, even when couched in seemingly benign forms of discourse. I can't count the number of times I've been on the train or bus and heard white folks passing through Central Jersey lament about how there are no more "Americans" in Edison (or other towns like it), or how "no one even speaks English over there." It's high bullshit and white folks (or anybody) who talks or jokes like this is suspect of some ignorant tribalistic xenophobic white backlash shit that's as old as this whole society. It's not appropriate. It tries to keep a lock on who defines "Americanness" when we should be free to define our own existence within this supposedly "open" society.
Oh please!!! How many Indians turn their noses down at other Indians brought up in Edison???
Is there a link to the TIME article in question? scanned a couple of times but couldn't find it in the post.
I understand that SM is not a single entity, and doesn't speak with a single voice. However, after reading the Time piece, I wasn't very offended. I was less offended than some of the pieces that SM has carried on FOB's, or some commentary on this site which mimics the speech patterns of supposed FOB's in a condescending manner. I assume that this offended some as it speaks more about the Indian American population rather than the Indian population. SM is a venue for Indian American bloggers and it's totally their call to be offended or not. I was not offended as it confirmed (in an exaggerated manner) some of the larger stereotypes (like the Gujarati Motel/Gas Station owner lark) that I had experienced when I first arrived in the states. I would suggest SM lighten up, or at the very least imagine the reaction if some of us went back to a hometown in India and found it dominated by Indonesians, its great fodder for comedy and should be treated as such.
Anna, if something is satire and written in the voice of the "dumb, white American," you can't say that the article went too far! It's satire - he's going to sound stupid because that's the point!!!
Bumping this up from Amardeep's comment:
"There is too much human suffering behind those four words ("India is so damn poor") to think of joking about it."
Stein should apologize for those four words.
Some of the other things are irritating, but not all that different from things you ignore everyday, because they need way too much effort to change and are really not worth all the trouble.
Amardeep that's tenuous as marker, although it seems to have some currency....what do you think number of comments on a story suggests about peoples reaction to the story? It could be people feel the comment section is an appropriate place to opine about one topic, but not another. For one, Nrega may much less familiar and some may hesitate to think commenting on a policy of the government of India's policy on a blog is going to amount to much substanial.
I think what you're saying is more or less right, but that very fact just underlines how trivial a lot of internet chatter is. The things that people get riled up about often don't matter much. Policies that might affect the livelihoods of 50 million or more fellow "brown" people? hm... yawn... Boring Indian politics stuff...
Not saying I'm immune to it or above it. Just a little frustrated with the #trend today.
I actually thought the Stein piece was an attempt at Borat-style humor, where he seems to be making fun of Indians but is really turning the tables on whites who hold the bigotry which is satirized in the article. I think the execution wasn't 100% though so it still comes off as kind of insulting.
My issue is with Time, a supposedly newsworthy magazine that published this. I can see this being in someone's comedic monologue or on someone's blog and it being able to be dismissed easily, but the fact that a prominent news magazine published this I find quite disturbing. A message needs to be sent by the Indian community to Time magazine that this is not acceptable in 2010. We're already on the cusp of that horrible NBC show outsourced. Have you seen the ads for that? I cringe and seethe every time I see one of the commercials for that. I'm sure there will be discussion on it when it is released. The Indian community needs to send out the message that we're nobody's fool.
Ragavacharyar- Joel Stein is in EVERY issue of Time - he's a columnist!!!! He's there all the time. He's not a reporter...He's not supposed to NOt have bias! Helllloooo...its an editorial!
What strikes me about Stein's style of writing is the cynicism that is soaked in every sentence. Granted, I am a somewhat cynical person myself, and have little patience for "Tomorrow will be a better day" slogans. But as others have pointed out, Stein overlooks the fact that Edison has a higher than average per capita income, plus highly rated schools and hospitals - it could have deteriorated given that is what usually happens with white flight. As far as the ugliness of the storefronts and strip malls - that is a complaint that is registered by all critics of suburban life - hardly unique to Edison.
Now, if he was just some blogger, that would be one thing. But being a paid columnist in Time carries a different degree of seriousness - a seriousness which Stein appears to throw out like yesterday's fashions.
BTW, I seriously doubt that Time would allow the following to be printed:
"For a while, we assumed all Jews were geniuses. Then, in the 1980s, the doctors and engineers decided to help out their merchant cousins, and we were no longer so sure about the genius thing. In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants gave rise to their even-less-bright cousins to work in high finance, and we started to understand why Wall Street goes through boom and bust cycles with disturbing frequency."
I think its just the nature of it, there's probably what could be considered good and bad reasons for it. One may be we generally may feel unable to affect in a substantial way the things that affect our lives
I am an Indian-American who was born and raised in Edison. I completely agree that the column is inappropriate and offensive.
But I'll also admit that I was sad when the Dairy Queen was replaced with Indian takeout. I miss that there used to be a regular grocery store in the neighborhood where I grew up... and then one day it was gone. I was devastated when the best pizza shop in Edison was replaced with yet another Indian restaurant. Don't get me wrong - I'm thrilled that our people have populated the place. I'm thrilled that Indian culture has become such an important part of American culture - of Jersey culture! But I'm sad that some of the staples in the town I grew up in have been replaced. I'm sure it was simply a supply and demand issue. And perhaps that's the way things go. It's just really unfortunate that there wasn't enough room for both pizza and dosas. Because the Edison I grew up in had both, and so much more.
KXB - ITS SATIRE!!!! Not cynicsm
No, it is cynicism masquerading as satire. Aside from having Dungeons & Dragons partners, Stein seems to be at a loss to point out the benefits of Indian immigration into Edison. Now, I'm sure if I went to parts of Southern California, there are plenty of people who grew up in the 50's and 60's who miss the days when a modest income could get you a modest home in a nice neighborhood, but once East Coast transplants came in, they changed they laid back character of the neighborhood. I doubt Stein has that sort of self-reflection.
If the arguement is this is innocous bc its satire, one appreciates successful satire all the more, and ones love of A Modest Proposal grows by bounds
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1999416,00.html
How can the article not be racist?
The very first sentence tells us how Joel Stein feels.
The dude plainly does not want immigration in Edison and he laments why. There are enough immigrants already and Indians at that. So even if he wouldn't mind a small concession at a later date he definitely doesn't want the Indian type. Why not? The rest of the article whines that they just aint culturally and professionally acceptable enough to him.
The Guindians are OK but they smell. Even with western scent.
Still don't think the article has racist connotations?
Wait for it. Stein even uses the word racist. Except that he laments that the situation wasn't racist enough. Darn. Should have used real hate speech, as if dot heads isn't bad enough, Doh!
I have no idea if this piece is racist since I stopped reading by the 2nd sentence, finding the 5 words preceding "in 1989" too unbelievable to continue.
"BTW, I seriously doubt that Time would allow the following to be printed:
'For a while, we assumed all Jews were geniuses. Then, in the 1980s, the doctors and engineers decided to help out their merchant cousins, and we were no longer so sure about the genius thing. In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants gave rise to their even-less-bright cousins to work in high finance, and we started to understand why Wall Street goes through boom and bust cycles with disturbing frequency.'"
While we're at it, substitute the "why Wall Street goes through boom and bust cycles..." with "why the Holocaust happened." See, it's still a hilarious joke! If you don't think it's funny, then you're just not smart enough to get my sense of humor!
I think the article is stupid, not racist. The only part I take any objection to is the "that's why India is so damn poor" bit because equating poverty with stupidity is something that many, many wealthy people do quite frequently in real life, especially with regard to the Third World. There's no lack of people (probably many in Stein's audience) who believe on some subconscious level that all those brown people in faraway places are suffering and starving and dying in such great numbers because they are inferior in some way. It's certainly not an idea without precedent in history.
It just kind of chafes, knowing that Stein is talking about a really incredible amount of human suffering in dismissive terms, probably without ever having seen it or felt any personal connection to it. Stupid jokes about suffering and poverty in Africa and India are not uncommon in the media and they always bother me because by making these jokes, Americans are just creating another level of otherness for these fellow humans and removing themselves even further from their suffering.
The rest of the article is just silly and I didn't mind it at all. Big, big difference between making fun of Guido Indians and saying that people in the Third World suffer because they're stupid.
Oh my word people!!! Satire - look it up.
Imagine Stephen Colbert wrote this article.....That first sentence is referencing how white america doesn't mind xyz, as long as its not in their backyard......
@ edisongirl:
My comment will seem unfair since fast-food joints are my natural enemy, but I don't miss the ex-Dairy Queen spot on Oak Tree Rd (in front of Liquor Locker) at all. Even though what they sell there now is sweets and other junk food anyway, at least it is controlled by local people and not some big outside franchise corporation. The demise of local Pizza Huts and such is to be applauded if you ask me, especially when small local businesses take over. If junk food is to be sold, might as well be owned and made by the people it will be sold to. Brown folks sit up there comfortably out in the little lot now every day. I dig it. Local economics. It works and it's better - control the resources in your community, and keep money circulating within, as Malcolm X and Garvey always instructed.
I'm still waiting for the demise and razing of that damned Burger King on the corner of Wood and Oak Tree. Might as well throw the Liquor Locker itself in that category. And the giant Shop-rite/ Pathmark is still missing a tenant (and it's not Indian folks' fault it has been abandoned). Just a big ol' box sitting empty in front of an empty giant parking lot. Then there's the ex-United Skates around the corner on Wood Ave, been closed for like three years along with almost every other store on that strip. It's blighted, right between Little India, Metropark and the Parkway. How could serious tenants, especially local businesses, not want a piece of that? I guess it's a sign of the times. It ain't all good in the hood.
As a vegan, the cheapest produce you can get in this area outside of the proper farmer's markets of the growing season in Metuchen, South Edison, New Brunswick, Highland Park etc? Patel's Cash & Carry in Oak Tree Rd in Iselin. I pick okra all day over there. Plum tomatoes were $0.50/ lb the other day - lowest prices I've ever seen! Subzi Mandi down and across the street is also not a bad bet - they take care of their produce well over there. You can't get the selection (too "ethnic") or the prices at any conventional supermarket. To hell with Pathmark! They should build and put the most gigantic Indian/ Asian supermarket in that spot. (I will admit that Apna Bazaar is a lil scuzzy).
Plus when I can pick between taking my pleasure walks through what, Metuchen Main St? The Menlo Mall? or Oak Tree Rd? Oak Tree Rd gets the most points for me. Although being a bibliophile and a lover of Roosevelt Park, I often pass through that way to roll through Barnes n Noble.
So I am pro-Edison. To Joel Klein - love it or leave it (that's what they always say to critics like us)!
Oh look, Indians have been made fun off. How is that possible? Let's get all outraged and demand Stein's ouster from TIME.
Get a life people. You have just been made fun off, not a big deal. Move on.
Joel Stein's writings are supposed to be sort of tongue-in-cheek (although I don't claim to know his exact intentions here). I did not find his article funny and left it at that. At the same I find the the above post reactive in sort of "I'll show him" vein. Now, reacting to a "raghead" comment from a politician I can get, but taking the words of a satirist literally is a little immature no? Especially when you start eviscerating it point by point, debate its veracity and hypocritically call into the picture his being a Jew, a white and what not. IMO we can all be labeled racists as far as our biases go, but actual "racism" is more sinister than that.
Joel Stein may have been trying to ridicule racist attitudes by using deadpan sarcasm, but everything ended up sounding genuinely racist. Maybe he assumed that his anecdotes were so ridiculous that everyone could tell he was joking, but none of them seemed ridiculous. I grew up around people who said and did very similar things regarding Hispanic people (who are apparently all "Mexicans"). Sometimes people's honestly-held beliefs are so ridiculous they're funny, but a satirist has to show somehow that he/she doesn't actually agree with them.
Indians aside, Stein's sterotyping of the state of New Jersey and the American educational system, i.e. kids being petty criminals who are too uneducated to come up with good ethnic slurs, comes off as lazy at best and pathetically cynical at worst ("Hey, New Jersey sucks and American kids are dumb thugs, right? Aren't I bitingly humorous for pointing that out?"). Yes, there are genuine "Jersey Shore guidos" out there, but trying to counter one stereotype with another rarely works on the page or in real life.
Writing good satire is HARD. Sarcastic and jaded does not equate to clever and relevant. I've had deadpan sarcasm and faux-cynical "social commentary" blow up in my face, as I'm sure many other writers have (Mr. Stein now being one of them). I do see some of the humor I think he was trying to convey, but it did not come across in the delivery.
OK - was anyone arguing that Stein was auditioning for the Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan? Is it possible to be racist and pleasant, charming, and witty? There is nothing hypocritical in pointing out that while a Jewish guy is getting paid (quite well mind you) to write this nonsense, an aspiring Hindu or Muslim writer joking about Jewish real estate on the shores of the Mediterranean, the rumored frigidity of their women, their inedible food, and their knack of getting kicked out of one country to the next would quite rightly rejected in the submissions dept.
Oh c'mon, aside from the abrasive (albeit satiric) tone of the article, none of you felt at all sympathetic to Stein's POV? He acknowledges that neighborhoods and cities change with the changing times, which naturally makes people feel nostalgic for how things used to be. Edison is not just a town that has a sizeable number of Indians. It is a town that has been taken over by Indians. It may not be PC to say this, but it is true, and a part of my sympathizes with Stein and his mixed feelings towards this. Heck, I remember a Bangalore where people actually spoke Kannada on the streets instead of English or Hindi, and I completely miss that Bangalore. Doesn't mean I dislike North Indians, but yeah, I feel a sense of longing for a time when my traditions and cultures were part of the city I called home.
Anna,
Normally I'm a big fan of your pieces, but I think you went too far this time. Maybe you should calm down before you write things. Your commentary on Stein's piece was longer than the piece itself. If you read his column on a regular basis, you'll get the humor and realize he's not racist. Don't be offended just because he excluded Indians who are Christian. I gotta agree with Abhi here. Take a chill pill.
hypocritically call into the picture his being a Jew, a white and what not
Uh, the point is STEIN is hypocritical for being a part of a minority group which was barely welcome or accepted until fairly recently and turning around and dishing the same bs on brown people. It's not hypocritical for all of us to point out exactly what he is. The former raises eyebrows, the latter is just a statement of fact.
Naijaman #94: Without the Super Saver Liquor Locker, where would all the uncles get crates of Kingfisher/Taj Mahal on the DL while their wives were out grocery shopping :)
While the "satire" came off sounding more like a bigoted rant than anything witty, the thing I'm surprised most about is that TIME ran this. As others above pointed out, the magazine would never run such a piece about most other minorities. I don't think Stein's intent was to be racist; the only thing he's guilty of is being straight up unfunny.
Good point, but with one difference. Stein no longer lives in Edison - he traded in his Jersey roots to live among the beautiful people of Southern CA. If he was that concerned about Edison losing its charm, he should have stayed. It's a bit much to hear him lament that the Indians who moved in don't share certain attributes of the people who left.
You want satire? Two words - Larry David. "Curb Your Enthusiasm" can be summed up like this- Brooklyn-born Jew cannot stand the pretensions of wealthy West Coast Jews, and runs into one comedic caper after another when he runs afoul of some unwritten code of manners.
It's always fascinating to me, how gender affects things. If a guy calls someone out, that's entertaining. If a woman does it, she's hysterical, emotional, angry and needs "to chill". Our daughters are "chill" enough. There's something to be said for raising hell. And for understanding that different folks like different posts.
>Please don't feed the trolls...racist, abusive comments...may be deleted. Unless they’re funny. It’s all good then.
Sepia Mutiny's own comments policy suggest why Stein's remarks will be tolerated. Now we can kid ourselves and claim the column wasn't funny (I showed it to a few Indian and non-Indians alike and they chuckled even if they afterwards said it was offensive); of course we'll say it's unfunny because we're the butt of the joke. I'm not excusing Stein. But I'm saying maybe we should be a little more circumspect about legitimizing bigotry when it comes in the form of humor. Last comment and unrelated is- do we ever get tired of fellow Indian apologists? These people pride themselves on claiming some offense wasn't actually offensive; a white person could stick a fork up their a*s and call them a "sand nig*ger" and they would say deny the racist nature of the incident and pride themselves on their broad-mindedness. Let us call these sell-outs by their name and understand that masquerading their cowardice as a form of high-mindedness isn't fooling anyone.
Right...except he wasn't funny. Not even close. That paragraph above the commenting box doesn't provide blanket protection for any attempt at humor; it warns you to bring your A-game or get deleted. Stein didn't bring his...and he should have been.
The ironic think is that he rants about sterotypes, but he himself is a jewish humorist.
Larry David, he is not.
You want to see how racial humor is done?
Listen to Louis CK, Bill Burr or even Howard Stern. All white guys, who can say any racial epithet in the book and everyone will laugh at it.
An open letter to Time:
I have fairly good reading comprehension. However, I was particularly perplexed by Joel Stein’s misnamed “Awesome Column.” I had to read this column three times and I still don’t really get the point of it, despite its composition at the sixth grade reading level.
I have hesitated to point out this column online, because I do not want to increase any web traffic to such Neanderthal views, in much the same way I ignore Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, hoping and praying that one day they will wither on the vine from inattention. Mr. Stein’s article stands out in so many ways I find myself compelled to respond to its outright mean-spirited bigotry.
This particular column perhaps is explained as an attempt at humor. The horrifying embrace of crude stereotypes, racial slurs (“dotheads”), and downright insults (“…and we started to understand why India is so damn poor”) absolutely derail this goal. The tone is so dark he sabotages the possibility that any jokes can be enjoyed. Rereading this article makes it only worse. Reading it aloud had me choking on some of the sentences.
Full disclosure: I am not brown. Not close. I am so white, I am pink. And I am old, like the author (maybe a wee bit older…I graduated high school in 1984). We both went to high school and college at a time when one was overtly encouraged to use a language and a level of discourse that sought to negotiate a wonderfully complex society with individuals from different backgrounds, races, and religions. The possibility of mocking someone’s religion was, in a time not too long ago, considered appalling and should have set him or his editors aghast. This is the line that demonstrates such phenomenal insensitivity: “…if ‘dot heads’ was the best racist insult we could come up with for a group of people whose gods have multiple arms and an elephant nose…” During my recitation of this part of the essay, my eyes searched ahead on the page, saw this particular line and my usually pink complexion burned beet red, initially from embarrassment, and then anger. It was viscerally painful to read this line aloud to an audience.
Now is not the time to decide to loosen one’s discipline in discourses of race, religion, and ethnicity. Anti-asian violence is clearly evident in Western society, whether in my home town of Philadelphia, or in my wife’s hometown of Melbourne, Australia. Hate groups nationally are on the rise, as noted by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a watch group for such activities. With the gift of so many talented immigrants, one should be particularly welcoming, yet this article only promotes barriers and alienation.
Time’s editors need to be castigated too. A columnist may be permitted lots of leeway in the content of his columns, but one does not have to print these columns. An article with such awkward, crude, tone-deaf attempts at humor would have been rejected from my middle school newspaper, so certainly a Time editor can guide this author’s column to pollute only some electronic “delete” bin in his email account.
This should be Mr. Stein’s last column in Time.
I can recommend any of a group of writers (see sepiamutiny.com) with better composition, humor, and disciplined writing skills who can fill his space in the back of the magazine. Their articles are often intelligent (frequently above the sixth grade reading level), and quite humorous. I am not required to reread their work, nor am I left pondering the IQ of the author or tastelessness of his editors.
Better writing is “out there.”
>Right...except he wasn't funny.
Humor is subjective; you obviously don't find it funny. But you also take offense to it and that might explain why (as do I). The broader point is -- I don't think we can rely on a defense of accusing a satirist of being unfunny in order to combat bigotry. In fact, even the defense is so weak as to suggest, "Your bigotry was fine; but we need a funnier punchline; the latter is the problem." So clearly bigots need to test-drive their humor in front of a few focus groups, tighten up the delivery, and eventually the bigotry will become acceptable.
The problem with accepting the white majority's rationale that "it's okay if it's funny" is that often jokes can be funny making the majority laugh uproariously while the minority cringes. Sure there are jokes at the expense of white people, but when you're in a dominant position, how much easier is it to laugh at yourself. When we talk amongst ourselves, perhaps there is a different standard. In broader society and in mixed company, there needs to be a higher standard. See the reason we don't consider this is we don't want to be humorless scolds. That's fine. There's a consequence for us wanting desperately to part of the cool crowd and we've seen it. It's being lampooned in front of America and us in the corner offering a hollow, pathetic "not funny" counter. What we saw was typical Stein snark (I and others find Stein to be hilarious, this column included; there's a reason for his success). It was funny -- and that is the problem we have to confront and not deny out of existence.
The pass to humor can pose problems, but maybe part of the idea is there is something about humor that signals the ideas presented are of a certain kind. For example a person who is part of a group may laugh at a joke because they are part of the group. Humor is not only subjective, its a complex social act.
>If you think this is "UNOFFENSIVE", I promise you that there will be many "UNOFFENSIVE" pieces such as this in the future in TIME and other mainstream media outlets
PT- the reason many of us South Asians are claiming its inoffensive, as you correctly observed, is twofold. The first is that many of us here in America are engineers and scientists; while bright in our field of work, we are often narrow-minded in matters ourside of it -- and often don't understand sociological phenomenon. So you will have an IIT Grad exonerating Time for insulting, racial stereotypes because he neither understands the cumulative effect of demeaning racial characterizations in the press nor has the humility to understand that he is unaware. The second reason is that we have cultivated a fashionable kind of cowardice. It manifests itself as agreeing with insulting behavior by whites so as to separate onesself from the rest of the Indians, appear objective/neutral, but also because we have been taught to avoid confrontation. The easiest way to do that is a cop-out where you deny the offense even happened. Hope this helps.
I didn't post about this because *I* didn't find it funny; I don't matter that much. I posted about it because dozens of *you* felt that way, too. I checked my reaction against close to 100 others before I even sat down to write this; that's why it took me four hours instead of my usual 60 minutes. I take this shit seriously; I have a platform and I'm not going to wield it indiscriminately. I'm mindful of its reach and humbly grateful for my access to it. I take my responsibility here seriously enough that I didn't post about this immediately. I waited, ALL day. Check the timestamp. I meditated. I mulled. Moreover, my reaction remained the same: it's not funny.
I plainly stated the one line that was funny, so it's not as if I was squinching my eyes shut and covering my ears, trilling "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU! WANT TO RAGE!”
If I had to describe the ratio of reactions I've seen to it online, it would be something like 85% unfunny.
I think the broader point is that satire is incredibly difficult, as is comedy-- and if you're going to tackle the third rail of race, you'd BETTER be funny or you're going to sound like an asshole or worse, a racist when you fail. See: above. I'm not advocating focus groups for bigots to test their humor (?!), I'm pointing out that he failed at funny. Stein is a big boy. He knows damned well that this is the risk one takes with such material.
I'm not sure how "it's okay if it's funny" became racialized. I cited Dave Chappelle as an example of offensive, racially tinged humor that was successful and it's part of the commenting guidelines for this, a brown site.
It's great if you find Stein hilarious and think his body of work is brilliant. All are not same. :) I don't find him hilarious and I am very, very specific about where I'm aiming that opinion: one column in TIME. It wasn't funny and THAT is the problem. And calling it out for being a humor fail is nowhere near denying its existence.
Thanks Anna, liked reading your response and the others you quoted.
>Humor is not only subjective, its a complex social act.
You are right. I didn't want to get into this because it can go on forever. One of the reasons we laugh is because we are comfortable enough to do so. The very same racial joke that blacks reacted to with anger 50 years ago may be retold today word for word, and may draw laughter. Is it because blacks are more secure with their position? The mere fact that the butt of a joke, in this case a racial minority, can laugh at a particular joke suggests that the joke refers to subjects that they find acceptable to mock. In that sense, perhaps the minority group laughing at a joke at it's expense IS the green light that it's acceptable -- because even we can laugh at jokes at our thriftiness for example. The problem with this litmus test is that I know about half the Indian-Americans I know will laugh at anything that insults them. In fact they will themselves volunteer countless anecdotes to non-Indians about how ridiculous we are. I don't believe this avenue of thought is profitable; I think it better we back up and make a stand that bigotry will be confronted whether or not it is packaged as a joke, riddle, limerick, song, rhetorical question, or what have you.
>And calling it out for being a humor fail is nowhere near denying its existence.
It's a humor fail because you got a bunch of angry emails from other desis like ourselves? LOL. You must be kidding me. What you saw was outrage, and not a set of critiques from the writers of McSweeney's. Fine, let's keep telling Joel Stein "he's not funny" as if we're the authorities on comedy. I'm sure that will work really well. Are we going to school him on designing setups and building punchlines. As much as I like Mr. Show and Curb your Enthusiasm, I have an old book of jokes from Milton Berle that I can dust off- maybe we can send THAT to him.
We are going down a dead end.
It's important to complain - write to:
Joel Stein - thejoelstein@yahoo.com
Editor of Time - letters@time.com
Sepia - you posted this valuable article which shows up as the top hit when I just googled "Joel Stein Racist" - I think you should post a follow up prominently publicizing how readers can make their voices heard, including this info.
I think Mr. Stein is going to need 2x as much, or more, TP as a normal person would given the episiotomy you just gave him Anna.
Mr. Stein, if you are reading this, for your next article, please try to write something funny about your bacon-loving mohel and his integration into American society.
"I sincerely can not understand why intelligent South Asians such as the ones who take the time to read and craft considerate responses on this blog would think that it is "OK" to condone a piece such as this in a nationally-run, mainstream publication. Joel Stein did not write this piece as sophisticated commentary on the evolution of a model minority. It is his job create sardonic humor for TIME magazine. He took the easy way out and picked a group that would give him a pass when he stepped over the line. Joel Stein isn't stupid. He knows he stepped over the line and did it for two reasons... 1) South Asians wouldn't complain, really 2) He really hates the way his home town has changed.
If you think this is "UNOFFENSIVE", I promise you that there will be many "UNOFFENSIVE" pieces such as this in the future in TIME and other mainstream media outlets"
COSIGN!
i agree with abhi.
i usually like joel stine but he is not all that complex usually. this article was bit confusing, and yes complex. the humor was not easy to get at. but it is not an insult, not racist. any desi could have written the same.
i love desis, proud to be one, blablah, but i hate visiting desified NJ. people are RUDE! and i mean RUDE. but many ethnic low market business people are rude. until they become more americanized.which may never happen.
and yes india is poor. he might have connected to it badly but what's to get insulted by that?
Oh look, Indians have been made fun off. .......
Get a life people. You have just been made fun off, not a big deal. Move on.
Well, at least that explodes the stereotype of Indians as people who win spelling bees. :-)
I promised myself I would only leave one comment on this thread but could not resist.
People are entitled to their opinions but they are not entitled to their own facts :)
FACT 1: This article was not racist. Period. Stein is a well known and widely read humorist (though his fans may be few). On top of that he had an editor at Time who reviewed this before publication. Anybody that is arguing that this was intended to be racist in the same way that SC's Jake Knotts made the bigoted "raghead" comment about Nikki Haley or George Allen made his "Macaca" comment needs an adjustment in perspective and terminology. Did the article contain crude stereotypes? Hell yes. That was sort of the whole point!
FACT2: The article was not successful as a humor piece. Aside from the Bear in the Ice Cream truck gag I thought the movie Borat sucked balls (maybe literally in one scene). Many of you probably thought it was funny as all hell. Some people love Stephen Colbert but some of his victims, unfamiliar with his shtick think he's actually serious and don't get that he is poking fun at his own character. I grinned at some parts of Stein's article because I understood what he was attempting to do. This often happens in humor pieces though. Some subset of people don't get the joke. It doesn't matter if the joke was poorly written and delivered (as most likely in this case) or because the person reading the joke just didn't get it the first time (maybe it was too sophisticated for the reader or was read too fast like everything on the internet). At first read their is offense taken. Then someone points out, "dude it was just a joke. See evidence A, B, and C that clearly indicate it isn't what you thought." At this point the offended party screams even louder. They have to double down because otherwise they'd have to admit they weren't sophisticated enough to see the joke (even a horribly botched one). Yes, I realize that use of the word "sophistication" is going to get me flamed in subsequent comments :)
FACT3: People always conflate "stereotyping," "bigotry," and "racism." Via the internet:
Racism = The belief that one race (or races) is inherently superior or inferior to others.
Bigotry = intolerance of any opinions differing from ones own or intolerant of people of different ethnicity, race, or class.
Stereotype = An oversimplified conception, opinion, or image. Often assumes that one or a few speak for the whole.
So really? All you commenters on SM, Facebook and Twitter? Are you really claiming to me that humor writer Stein is a racist?? Really? He used crude stereotypes to deliver a joke (his clear intent) that failed. A racist that does not make.
OPINION1: I think the real thing causing issue to some subset of commenters is their sense of hurt Indian Nationalism. He called India "poor." Oh no. Racist should be fired.
I know I will get flamed. Bring it :)
Oh gosh. This would be the blog version of blowing one's wad early. Why not wait for real racism so we get taken seriously? There is plenty of real racism, bigotry and bias in the U.S. to battle.
I've read many columns of Joel Stine's so I understand his writing style and understood the article to be satire. Had some funny momements and maybe some questionable ones too...but overall wasn't offended at all.
What I am offended by is the immature response by Anna above. In a country founded by freedom of expression, I am tired of the "shutup" mentality that has grown out of the younger generations in the US. If you don't agree with someone, can't you just spell that out intelligently instead of some childish rant? Why do we have to pull his columns from the magazine? Its an
"editorial" - an opinion - not fact.
We have grown to be overly sensative in this country, and not just among South Asians. Discussion only fosters growth. Censorship fosters nothing.
YES!
He's saying White is better than Indian. Plain and simple. He may be self-deprecating, he may say that there are some stupid white people too (the ones that came up w/ the names dot-head). But according to your internet definition, TOTALLY.
NewYorker,
You could have made your point without being personal. You take away greatly from your own point by the words you chose.
Abhi - I stand corrected! I've reposted my post removing some of my personal language.....
I've read many columns of Joel Stine's so I understand his writing style and understood the article to be satire. Had some funny moments and maybe some questionable ones too...but overall wasn't offended at all.
In a country founded by freedom of expression, I am tired of the "shutup" mentality that has grown out of the younger generations in the US. If you don't agree with someone, can't you just spell that out intelligently and discuss? Why do we have to pull his columns from the magazine? Its an
"editorial" - an opinion - not fact.
We have grown to be overly sensative in this country, and not just among South Asians. Discussion only fosters growth. Censorship fosters nothing.
You may sound like a racist if you fail - that DOESN'T make you one! If you acknowledge that this was an attempt at satire, then you have to acknowledgge that he isn't a racist.
The article was almost the complete opposite of sophistication. That said, probably not racist, given in our society its unlikely the intention was to be so completely racist as the characture. That's kind of the issue, its so unsophisticated in its way, the supposed satire is in a negated. It's like trying to paint like Picasso to illustrate the horror of war and coming up with a picture is Nelson from the Simpsons laughing at a guy with a bullet wound
"OPINION1: I think the real thing causing issue to some subset of commenters is their sense of hurt Indian Nationalism. He called India "poor." Oh no. Racist should be fired."
Abhi,
I don't think that's what's irking people; the problem is with how he equates poverty with stupidity. To me, the implication was that we are poor because most of us are stupid.
Honestly, my initial reaction to the article was utter bafflement. I just did not get what point he was trying to make.
When I first read the article I thought I got it. Thought, "oh it's kinda funny". But as I read further, the tone of the article made me uneasy. I'd heard this type of racism before when I was a child growing up in Canada. Throughout the article Stein suggests that some type of Indian immigrants are better than others (meaning the recent ones are not of the high quality as the earlier, professional immigrants). Wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt I looked at his facebook page and the comments from his "friends". There were many offensive comments from the "superior" East Coast brats who conveyed the "my daddy's a stockbroker billionaire" attitude and are part of the pedigree of private Universities. And there were a couple of Indian origin people who did the "yes Massa" prostrations by declaring that the article was funny and they weren't offended.
My question is: why did TIME print the article? Time magazine has always had the history of purposely affecting public opinion and policy from it's origins (Henry Luce).
However I take solace in the fact that the rest of America hates the Joel Stein's & his privileged East Coast friends too. Just feel sad for the misguided Indian origis who are sucking up to him. I say: please look in the mirror because you're brown and you're spineless.
So are you implying I am a "yes Massa" type then? That's rich. Cue the circular firing squad.
I read that part of the article completely differently. I thought it was more of him as a child only seeing rich Indians and yet hearing that India was poor. He only got to experience that when blue-collar worker types came over in the 90's and beyond. Obviously, India has even poorer people.
Leaving aside funny/unfunny, racist/not racist - can anyone say it was well written? For that matter, do any of Stein's columns rise above freshman level? A number of years ago, he wrote a buffonish column wondering what the big deal was over honoring vets, and complained about the traffic tie-ups caused by Memorial Day parade. When he was asked whether a) he knew any veterans personally or b) was ever stuck in traffic due to a Memorial Day parade, he answered no to both. From his point of view, he just needed to write something - he did not have to have any truth to it. If that is the case, he should not be carried in news magazines.
By contrast, and this is going way back, in 2001 Jonah Goldberg wrote a clumsy attempt at humor after the Gujarat earthquake in his column on the National Review website. In his next column, he apologized, saying that what seemed funny at the time was horribly not funny, and this was pointed out to him by other NR staffers. It comes down to a matter of either standing by what you write, or knowing you screwed up an man up to it. If Stein's behavior in the past is any guide, he will walk around with a "Was it something I said?" expression on his face, cash his Time paycheck, while some folks here are concerned that Indians will develop a reputation for lacking a sense of humor.
Having read (and re-read) Mr. Stein's article a couple of times and Anna's response let me ask a few questions to all you folks who think she needs to take a "chill pill."
Can you see Time publishing an article that jokes about Hitler's ethic cleansing complete with swastikas for illustrations? While Mr. Stein doesn't go as far as suggesting that, in a future world it might be OK to extend his "joke" to say Indians who immigrate but don't assimilate be "cleansed".
Mr. Stein - why don't you get Time to publish something funny about your bacon-loving mohel who family escaped from Auschwitz, but found out his wife married the Iranian and converted to a Nazi?
Why is it OK to joke about some topics but not others?
Jun Choi, a former mayor of Edison, is not pleased:
“When Joel contacted me… I talked with him at length about Indian American entrepreneurs, innovators and their positive contributions… since he was looking to write about his hometown and Thomas Alva Edison. While I respect his right to express his views and try to be funny, I was disappointed that the article turned out to be distasteful and offensive to both Indian Americans and my hometown of Edison.”
I'm definitely that type, though my master serves me. But the power shiifts once the bill arrives. Rich indeed.
This is perhaps an unfair characterization. These commenters seem upset by his implication that India is poor because Indians are unintelligent. I guess the following statement is superfluous, but...India is poor today largely because of more than a century of occupation and colonization by the British. Of course it's possible that India would be poor even in the counterfactual scenario where the British never entered the country.
Abhi,
If you get flamed, it's not for disagreement with what you wrote, but rather that you attempted to dumb down the debate.
>FACT 1: This article was not racist. Period. Stein is a well known and widely read humorist (though his fans may be few). On top of that he had an editor at Time who reviewed this before publication....Did the article contain crude stereotypes? Hell yes. That was sort of the whole point!
Your idea of a fact is to state an unsubstantiated opinion followed by stating authoritatively "Period."? That's not my definition of a fact. He is a humorist and a real-life editor at Time reviewed it - therefore it is not bigoted? Now THIS is a joke, right? As far as the other content, I'll explain below how crude stereotypes are exactly the problem.
>FACT2: The article was not successful as a humor piece. Aside from the Bear in the Ice Cream truck gag I thought the movie Borat sucked balls (maybe literally in one scene). Many of you probably thought it was funny as all hell. Some people love Stephen Colbert but some of his victims, unfamiliar with his shtick think he's actually serious and don't get that he is poking fun at his own character. I grinned at some parts of Stein's article because I understood what he was attempting to do. This often happens in humor pieces though. Some subset of people don't get the joke. It doesn't matter if the joke was poorly written and delivered (as most likely in this case) or because the person reading the joke just didn't get it the first time (maybe it was too sophisticated for the reader or was read too fast like everything on the internet). At first read their is offense taken. Then someone points out, "dude it was just a joke. See evidence A, B, and C that clearly indicate it isn't what you thought." At this point the offended party screams even louder. They have to double down because otherwise they'd have to admit they weren't sophisticated enough to see the joke (even a horribly botched one). Yes, I realize that use of the word "sophistication" is going to get me flamed in subsequent comments :)
It doesn't matter whether the column was "successful" as a humor piece. We can argue till we're blue in the face whether or not ANY piece of comedy is in fact funny; as a subjective matter, spending too much time on this is a fool's errand (just as debating which in fact was the best period of SNL, etc.). Your dissertation of humor is irrelevant to the Stein piece. It is not an issue whether or not someone "gets" the joke. We are not dealing with layered or complex satire here. A simple insinuation that the majority of Indians are so stupid as to bring on the poverty they are mired in needn't require much explanation. Your write-up was the same, standard, tired defense that any bigotry if practiced through humor is acceptable.
>FACT3: People always conflate "stereotyping," "bigotry," and "racism." Via the internet:
Racism = The belief that one race (or races) is inherently superior or inferior to others.
Bigotry = intolerance of any opinions differing from ones own or intolerant of people of different ethnicity, race, or class.
Stereotype = An oversimplified conception, opinion, or image. Often assumes that one or a few speak for the whole.
It is inessential to play a game of semantics here. When Michael Richards yelled the N word, that wouldn't necessarily state a belief that one race is superior to another. It was nonetheless racist. When Stein makes the claim that the stupidity of Indians is why they are impoverished, if that's not an assertion of white, Western intelligence being superior to another race (Indians), I'm not sure what is. Crude stereotypes ARE in fact a primary vehicle for racism as well as bigotry.
>OPINION1: I think the real thing causing issue to some subset of commenters is their sense of hurt Indian Nationalism. He called India "poor." Oh no. Racist should be fired.
This misses the mark and is not what people are finding fault with. India is a poor country. Some would argue that has a great deal to do with colonialism (review the percentage of India as a fraction of world GDP before and after the British, for example). However, few would argue it stems from the inherent stupidity of its people, as Stein claims.
As I said earlier, we ought to be a little more circumspect about legitimizing bigotry when it comes in the form of humor. We don't want to be humorless scolds. If we play dumb entirely however to bigotry (however packaged in humor), the result is being lampooned in front of America and us in the corner offering a hollow, pathetic "not funny" counter. What we saw was typical Stein snark (I and others find Stein to be hilarious, this column included; there's a reason for his success). It was funny -- and bigoted - and that is the problem we have to address.
I agree with Maitri and Anna. I wasn't raised in the US so I have absolutely no idea about what it feels to read a piece like this when some of these things being satirized in the article may have been said to people in real life. For people who find this funny, more power to you. I can't stand Russel Peters' humor as I think it is lazy and I agree with the author of this post that the article is not funny.
And VC, I really don't think the answer is to respond to one person's ignorance with ignorance.
FACT 1: This article was not racist. Period
abhi, ironically, this 'fact' was preceded by your comment that people cannot make up their personal set of facts. his intent to not be racist may be a fact (and only one that the author knows or can confirm), but whether or not the article was racist is still highly up to debate. in fact, i'm not even sure a conclusion can be made on this - do you mean that the article cannot be perceived as racist? because otherwise, i am not sure that one can come to the conclusion that, as a fact, this article was not, or was, racist - e.g., based on what did you come up with this 'fact'? that statement seems far more like an opinion than a fact.
racist intent or not, the comment that has been repeated by mutineers throughout this thread is one thought that struck me throughout reading his article - would this article be as acceptable as 'humour' if indians were replaced as the subject with another group - say jews, or african-americans, or latinos? and, more importantly, would time have been 'strong' enough to publish it? (my other thought was about native americans, but that's a whole different issue)
i like racist humour as much as the next person, but have to agree with ANNA and SM's comment policy - when it's funny, and also not meant with true racist intent - which is partly why i am OK with a dave chappelle making jokes - they are SO outrageous and politically incorrect, that you know they have to have been meant as a joke (or at least with no ill will). unfortunately, that tone, whether or not intended, was not present in joel stein's article - which is why i cannot say for certain that this article did not reflect him as a racist. perhaps it really IS because he a terrible writer and was unable to convey a sufficient level of humour to put this content out of the realm of racism. but he failed, and now i'm just left with the thought that: joel stein is (maybe) a racist.
but i DID laugh at that LBJ comment
>Complain on June 29, 2010 8:42 PM wrote "It's important to complain - write to:"
THANK YOU. I wrote to Time and let them know what I thought. You have the right frame of mind. We can do this comment thread argument forever and it won't accomplish anything. Given the range of responses, I doubt we as a community will get our act together soon. We are a "soft target" for the likes of Metro PCS for a reason. We are accomodationists. We don't understand how demeaning language like the kind Stein used against our kind hurts us in society. We wish to avoid confrontation by denying an offense has taken place. Or we notice the offensive stereotypes but its supposedly okay because it is "satire", a term which people use freely but apparently don't know its meaning. We want to laugh off the hurtful language and get back to our game of bridge. Apparently the only time we have the presence of mind to know something is unacceptable is when it's so transparent such as the "macaca" moment. Pretend it never happened or that it doesn't matter. We get lost in the nature of the argument and waste time criticizing the style of Joel Stein's column (or praising it), or criticizing its humor content (or praising it) - all sideshows to the basic fact that he insulted us as a bunch of stupid dark-skinned people that don't assimilate .
The notion that bigotry is acceptable if it's funny is a baseless and arbitrary standard. I realize it's conventional wisdom, which is why I distrust it even more so.
Let's all tell jokes that drop the N word and if we're all chuckling, it's all good. Idiotic.
I'm actually glad Stein's column came along so we could see just how f*cking stupid this "rule" is.
George Carlin explained this a long time ago - it is all about context.
"There's a different group to get pissed off at you in this country for everything your not supposed to say. Can't say Nigger, Boogie, Jig, Jigaboo, Skinhead, Moolimoolinyon, Schvatzit, Junglebunny. Greaser, Greaseball, Dago, Guinea, Whop, Ginzo, Kike, Zebe, Heed, Yid, Mocky, Himie, Mick, Donkey, Turkey, Limey, Frog. Zip, Zipperhead, Squarehead, Crout, Hiney, Jerry, Hun, Slope, Slopehead, Chink, Gook. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words in and of themselves. Their only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullshit! It's the context that makes them good or bad. The context. That makes them good or bad. For instance, you take the word "Nigger." There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word "Nigger" in and of itself. It's the racist asshole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about. We don't mind when Richard Pryer or Eddie Murphy say it. Why? Because we know they're not racist. Their Niggers! Context. Context. We don't mind their context because we know they're black. Hey, I know I'm whitey, the blue-eyed devil, paddy-o, fay gray boy, honkey, mother-fucker myself. Don't bother my ass. Their only words. You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room on every street corner in this country."
In the context of a weekly newsmagazine, does Stein's column make any sense?
I'm in between Abhi and Anna (to set the poles of the discussion). I can certainly sympathize with the author's lament for a changed neighbourhood (change can suck, especially for memories or matters that you hold dear. And no, not all change is automatically good or necesarily neutral). Sure, it would be nice to have a poignant meditation (!) on how you "can't go home again" but Stein is a humour writer, and he's going to filter through that lens. Many may find his output unhumorous, but others respond from the funnybone. My own humour tends towards the appreciation of quality trash-talking and the slam against a religion whose gods have an elephant nose made me laugh out loud--because, yes, really if you are going to target Indians/Hindus there is a lot more material to work with to come up with some choice ethnic slurs. Accordingly, the "dot-head" insult does seem to reflect poorly on the intellectual capabilities of those using it. It's a double-burn. I liked the wry observation about Guindians, to show that the players may change but the song remains the same (kind of a repudiation of the suggestion/fear that there won't be "assimilation"--in the end Jersey will win. Although, to blow his mind, perhaps someone should suggest that perhaps the Guidos of yore were just channelling aspects of Bollywood). And I liked the comments where he pointed out that he was in fact, part of "the problem" with his own contribution to migration patterns and the effect on the neighbourhood. So, I can certainly see some basis for the suggestion that he was pulling a Colbert.
However, overall, the article did leave a bad taste in my mouth. It seemed to me that at some point, the writer was having just a bit too much fun and was just a bit too comfortable with the concept. Satire became narrative. The particularly jarring items were the references to " knowing why India was so poor" and the references to Arizona (even that would have been fine if he'd also referenced how previous denizens of Edison must have reacted to influxes of Italians etc). Now maybe it's just his clumsiness as a writer (Colbert makes it look so damn easy) but still, if you can't bring your A game to this topic, it's best to keep silent and let people assume you're an idiot than open your mouth and confirm it (that's right--I referenced Twain. But, I'm still keeping my nonassimilated name!). In addition, while the Venn diagrams of funny and offensive can and often do intersect, I tend to skew more towards offended when I sense that the author doesn't apply the same brush to all potential targets. If someone can show me Stein's equivalent take down of Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn(PLENTY of material, including a massive influx of people in a short time, to work with there), I'll be a lot more comfortable. I do think there is some merit to the suggestion that Stein was comfortable with the topic because he knew that Indians were a socially acceptable target (and TIME seems to support him on that point).
Regardless, as I appreciate quality trash-talking, I thought Anna's response was well played, even if I am not fully on board with her position.
I think the best way to help the healing process will be to have Stein accompany someone from this site to the IndoJew bowl.
different people can see totally different things sincerely. so this is not the sort of thing that can be resolved by "facts." i was not offended, nor did i think it was funny. it just seemed really confusing to me. as KXB noted, it was *time*. i am not up on pop culture so i was vague on who stein was, and was curious about the data on reduced educational achievement among edison's indians over the generations :-)
and that is exactly why comments like 121 are problematic as they totally undermine the other point of view.
He started out in Entertainment Weekly, and to quote Jenelle Riley over at Back Stage Blog, he is the kind of gut that fails upwards (think Harry Crane on "Mad Men").
He's just not funny. If choosing ethnicity and nationality as the raw material for your humor gets you slapped with the 'racist' tag, it's merely a penalty for being a terrible humorist or rather a talentless hack with pretensions exceeding the limits of one's imagination. "Racist" is a harsh charge but if it means that you simply get another job, or you get more pageviews and more work (like Stein will), then it's specific to statement, a/v recording, blog post, etc. I've read a few of his other articles for Time and they are mostly bland--with little humor, of the clumsy racial variety or otherwise, or wit. The 'damage' from the charge is isolated.
As to whether this constitutes, 'crying wolf,' I would remind the leveler of this charge that the big scary wolf murdered not only the sheep but the young shepherd as well--as a confirmed cynic I can safely say that this is the 'cism of nightmares and not reality. There is no useful contrast to be highlighted between Stein's, "Gotcha! You thought I was your Other-loving, liberal, conservative-flaming friend" humor fail and physical or material losses resulting from discrimination, attack, etc because they are apples and oranges. The former is experienced and reported frequently by those who produce/consume prose in any medium, and the latter infrequently by anyone unfortunate enough to be a target. This is largely a function of volume. There is no cosmic judge Judy heaping scorn on those who, by accident of birth/skillset/aptitude/disposition/interest, happen to be the prose people and see more of that than anything else.
Did i laugh or grin while reading his column? No. Did I laugh and grin while reading this? Yes. But I was not saying, "you go girl," I was just laughing. I have no beef with Stein only with the torturous crawl of time during which I am forced to wait for the invisible hand to deal with crap like the column in question.
>In the context of a weekly newsmagazine, does Stein's column make any sense?
KXB,
You're right that context matters. However, it's not the context of the medium used - it being a newsmagazine - that is most relevant. Were it a leaflet, or an email newsletter, or an ed/op in the newspaper, it would hardly matter. The context, I believe, that does matter is that the person saying it was non-Indian. He is white (Jewish). The only comment of his that I will focus on (because it's too easy for us to get distracted by the whole piece) is the one that implied that Indian stupidity explains the poverty of India. The context of a white person saying this, in my view, is the one we need to focus on. Carlin and Chris Rock successfully did racial humor because their jokes had a grain of truth to them. Building a punchline on a lie- that Indians are stupid - when in fact India's poverty owes to a host of factors, most notably British colonialism (which Noam Chomsky and others have written about), is the essence the problem. The good kind of racial humor informs us; we laugh a knowing laugh because it is something it reflects an insight into our personas or our community that strikes us as true; we leave with greater self-awareness. The bad kind of racial humor, IMO, is when it perpetuates negative stereotypes based on a simplistic falsehood - the kind Stein employed. My two cents.
There’s a lack of maliciousness in the Chappelle video linked from the article, where the stereotypes are played upon (American blacks as gangsters, Wayne Brady as lovable and family friendly (perhaps even the antithesis of the “stereotypical American black gangsta” type), but, as with most of Chappelle’s work, the people are shown to be just people. That’s not there in Stein’s article. He makes fun of Americans and of Indians, but as stereotypes, never humanizing either. Instead of combating racism by sending up racist stereotypes, as Chappelle does, he just tries to keep an even ledger, making fun of groups into which he falls as often as he makes fun of those into which he doesn’t. But, as the comedian on Seinfeld who had converted to Judaism so that he could make fun of Jewish people made pretty clear, and as many comedians who base their acts on making racist/religionist jokes about their own group also illustrate, the humor is, at best, half discomforting and half funny even when stated by a native member of that group, and even more insulting (thought probably just as classless) when stated by a nonmember.
Stein’s article isn’t simply racist because it’s not funny. Just as this “Sepia Mutiny” article doesn’t just come off as mildly sanctimonious because, say, there’s nothing especially humorous about her one-girl struggle to educate the obnoxiously obtuse and insensitive “Merry Christmas” wishers – it simply seems mildly sanctimonious because it is, in fact, mildly sanctimonious.
Do we really think “Merry Christmas” wishers are prejudiced, proselytizing jerks? Maybe they could benefit from some PC, religional-variety training, but let’s be honest – the comments are most probably well-intentioned.
However, that doesn’t seem to be the case in Stein’s article. What he says smacks of, well, not racism, because I doubt the presence of Bobby Jindal next door would elicit these remarks from him. It’s really nationalism and religionism. I think, at base, it’s culturism. He’s uncomfortable with Indian immigrants who are act differently than his remembered neighbors did, thus changing the culture of the area. As with all prejudice, there’s the smell of fear about it. Or, if not outright fear, then discomfort. I know, because I’m racist and sexist and sexual-preferencist and everything else. I have prejudged views about other races just as I do about my own. Is anyone above some degree of that? But when that manifests itself in a way where the fear is palpable; the comments (no matter how funny anyone finds them) unsettling and discomforting; and the goal not to show, not even a human similarity, but just equal worth; then it’s not fun and not something I’d expect to find in a national publication that I respected.
I don't think Stein's piece is racist or bigoted, but it does flag in places as a piece of humour because if it is a satirical piece, it is weak in places because the satire is not always evident. There are also a couple of jarring, sour notes that don't appear to be sarcastic or that appear to be bookended by funny bits in order to hide amongst the humour, and these make one a bit uneasy as if one has suddenly realized that the author really does mean what he is saying and is using humour/sarcasm to hide something a bit more illuminating on how he really feels. This is probably being unfair to Stein, but the manner in which he wrote some things contribute to this impression.
I read a couple of his other pieces, including this one on his Edison high school reunion: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1945358,00.html. In that piece he does say this: "And yet, as the new book Connected by Nicholas A. Christakis and James H. Fowler shows, we actually do choose our friends through proximity and shared activity. Sure, I might now select a slightly different mix from the J.P. Stevens pool — especially if you threw some Indians, black dudes and supernerds back into it — but this was a group that could make me laugh and think as much as the carefully culled group I hang out with in L.A. You know, the ones who had a kid at exactly the same time we did."
In the India piece and in this high school reunion piece he does poke fun at Edison in general and the culture in which he grew up. He is also irreverent about his own Jewish geneology in another piece. He appears to be saying that Edison has changed from a predominantly white town with not much to recommend it in his day to a predominantly Indian-American town with not much to recommend it anymore ( the initial changes he seems to have been ok with) And that the Indians there now have basically become American - or at least are aping some of the not so attractive features of New Jersey American life. The only reason he can't recognize it is because the inhabitants and the outward look of the place are different.
"I never knew how a bunch of people half a world away chose a random town in New Jersey to populate. Were they from some Indian state that got made fun of by all the other Indian states and didn't want to give up that feeling? Are the malls in India that bad? Did we accidentally keep numbering our parkway exits all the way to Mumbai?"
He's making fun of New Jersey here (the state that other Americans, even Jon Stewart, makes fun of) And look at the people with whom he spent his youth - they all appear to be wastrels or criminals.
The sour notes:
The bit about "that's why India is so damn poor." He may have a poor opinion of some of the people who came to Edison from India, but that has nothing to do with why India is poor. This is a flop connection and the humour doesn't work.
"In retrospect, I question just how good our schools were if "dot heads" was the best racist insult we could come up with for a group of people whose gods have multiple arms and an elephant nose."
- Again the humour flops, even if it is making fun of dunces who can't be imaginative with their bigotry. Because jokes about multiple-armed Gods and elephant heads are just as unimaginative and cliched, coming from people with a very limited/insular idea of what God is. So the schools wouldn't have been any better if the kids there had made jokes about the latter.
"But sometime after I left, the town became a maze of charmless Indian strip malls and housing developments. Whenever I go back, I feel what people in Arizona talk about: a sense of loss and anomie and disbelief that anyone can eat food that spicy."
The first sentence had no need for the word Indian. Why are charmless Indian strip malls and housing developments any worse than the thousands of other charmless strip malls and housing developments dotting America, especially in suburbia? I watch HGTV:) He can be upset about the strip mall and the housing developments, but the "Indian" was unnecessary. If anything, the rest of the world is unfortunately copying this charmless, generic American housing development model, complete with the silly names. And then following that with the Arizona reference (even if the spicy bit was meant to lighten the mood of the comparison) makes it seem more "ominous" than he probably meant it to be. He did write another piece on joining some "Buy Arizona" campaign for fun. So perhaps this juxtaposition stemmed from that. The use of the word anomie is strange. It means: "Social instability caused by erosion of standards and values. Alienation and purposelessness experienced by a person or a class as a result of a lack of standards, values, or ideals" So, does an Indian-dominated Edison suffer from a lack of standards, values or ideals. Is it socially unstable because of erosion of the more "white" standards and values of his past? He is free to feel alienated in Edison, but only because his "standards and values and ideals" whatever that may be (I guess shoplifting etc. and charmless non-Indian buildings like Pizza Hut) are no longer evident there. Basically he's nostalgic for the charmless Edison of his past, not the one of the present, I guess.
I did find the Guindians bit funny, though, because years ago I was in New Jersey and saw lots of the people others labelled "Guidos". I had a friend whose brother, Indian, made sure he hung out only with these types (no Guindians then). The girlfriends of these types were a sight to behold! And not in a good way:)
“When Michael Richards yelled the N word, that wouldn’t necessarily state a belief that one race is superior to another.”
Actually that’s precisely what was stated. The (wrongly identified) heckler couldn’t get his superior comedy. He was, after all, a you-know-what.
Stein is making no such claims. He tried to write a wistful / humorous piece about a changing neighborhood — a tough task for most. His tone-deaf handling of complex subjects like immigrants from developing countries, unknown culture etc. didn’t help it either.
“we ought to be a little more circumspect about legitimizing bigotry when it comes in the form of humor. We don’t want to be humorless scolds. If we play dumb entirely however to bigotry (however packaged in humor), the result is being lampooned in front of America and us in the corner offering a hollow, pathetic “not funny” counter. “
So we go to the other extreme? He is clearly placing easy laffs above everything. Shouldn’t we be able to make a distinction between hack writing and something that is coming from a truly racist place?
“What we saw was typical Stein snark (I and others find Stein to be hilarious, this column included; there’s a reason for his success). It was funny -- and bigoted - and that is the problem we have to address.”
This doesn’t add anything to the discussion, but Stein’s output leaves me somewhere between boredom and mild irritation. His success is not so unique in an industry where people continue to fail upward.
Dear Abhi:
The fact that you thought I was referring to you means that you have that feeling about yourself. Please check out Stein's FB status where he takes another clever dig by first saying he did not mean to offend Indians then adding that he expected a Gandhian response. Would you not consider that a stereotype of the whole culture? Imagine if I told him that I am not anti-Semetic but ......well, you fill in the blanks with a stereotype about Jewish people.
Let's not turn this into an issue among ourselves and our identities. We're all shades of brown no matter how "white" we feel inside ;)
>Actually that’s precisely what was stated. The (wrongly identified) heckler couldn’t get his superior comedy. He was, after all, a you-know-what.
I'm not interested in debating ad nauseum about Michael Richards; it was a brief example I used. Suffice to say we disagree; Richards yelled out the N word in arbitrary anger (not to make any kind of nuanced critique on the recipient's ability to understand humor for heaven's sake).
>Stein is making no such claims. He tried to write a wistful / humorous piece about a changing neighborhood — a tough task for most. His tone-deaf handling of complex subjects like immigrants from developing countries, unknown culture etc. didn’t help it either.
If you read my comments, you'll note that I am not dwelling on Stein's entire piece. I don't care what he said in 90% of it. All I am focusing on is his single statement that Indian stupidity explains India's poverty.
>So we go to the other extreme? He is clearly placing easy laffs above everything. Shouldn’t we be able to make a distinction between hack writing and something that is coming from a truly racist place?
What?! I don't care if its hack writing or genius writing or so humorous it belongs in McSweeney's or so stupid that it comes out of Carrot Top's mouth. You can't polish a turd. If something's bigoted, the other qualities in the delivery of said bigotry are not essential. What makes Stein's assertion worse is that its based on a lie - that India is poor because it's people are stupid. To me that's what further invalidates the racial humor.
>This doesn’t add anything to the discussion, but Stein’s output leaves me somewhere between boredom and mild irritation. His success is not so unique in an industry where people continue to fail upward.
The fact that you don't comprehend its significance doesn't render it insignificant. Try again. We are enmeshed here in debate over whether Stein's column is funny (apparently if it's funny- that means that it's ok to say the things he did - at least according to Anna). What I said was yes it is funny AND yes it is bigoted. The simple fact is it doesn't matter whether it was funny or not (or whether you were bored or irritrated for that matter). What matters is the nature of the racial stereotype Stein used. The only people who look the other way on this matter in my view are those who are too chickensh*t to see it for what is or those who belong in a lab with a bunsen burner and a set of beakers and lack the social awareness to understand prejudice and its effects.
Actually, I found that to be a very snarky response given the misguided hyper-rage of his "racist"-declaring detractors. At this point nothing he says will matter anyways (no apology will placate the hordes) so why not double down?
So says the anonymous commenter behind the safety of his blog pseudonym. You have to earn the right to use the word chickenshit.
>Please check out Stein's FB status where he takes another clever dig by first saying he did not mean to offend Indians then adding that he expected a Gandhian response
Jess,
Ha! I have to laugh at this because he's right about the "Gandhian response". Our interpretation of Gandhi is to turn the other cheek but that is not the whole story obviously. Of course it's what Indian-Americans like us think to be the case. Basically, we fold. That's why MetroPCS has the ads it has running. We are soft targets because we lack the social cohesion, the emotional intelligence, and ultimately the backbone to fight back. We lack the ability to interpret prejudice and moreover to speak decisively against it. And so it will happen with greater frequency. You can count on it.
Thank you ANNA for blogging this. The article displays Joel Stein's bigotry. Compare it to the article from a week or two ago when he goes to Arizona and manages to clearly state is stance against the changes in immigration law there to this one and you can see how he's capable of being satirical without being offensive. You can chalk this article up to satire all you want, but the theme of this article is that the huge influx of Indians to Edison has negatively changed the character of the town. I honestly can see the great men of the Edison Police passing this around during the morning donut feast smirking at how someone like Stein finally got those damn brown folk to understand how they feel.
Calling this a work of satire or an attempt to be funny because that's Joel Stein's purpose at TIME is a weak defense and ignores the article's content and the effect it will have on the general reading public.
The only thing that should alarm us more than those who can dismiss this as a bad piece of satire is those who will take solace in this article's message,
@abhi re:chickenshit
He's still right... :(
>F*ck you you anonymous commenting coward. Who is the chickenshit here?
Abhi,
Relax man. Perhaps I used the wrong choice of words (wait- were you Mr. X??). We are however accomodationists by nature. We don't want to see what's wrong. We want to go along to get along. I don't see a single convincing argument that what Stein said - stupid Indians led to India's poverty - how that is not a bigoted remark. It being humor doesn't exonerate it. It being Time magazine - which even has an Indian managing editor - also doesn't make it acceptable. The fact that he didn't blatantly come right out and say we were dumb as maccacas and that's why we're poor also doesn't exonerate it. It shouldn't take a slur for us to realize something is wrong. So in the absence of any real reason why we should look the other way, I suppose its speculation as to why we would. We ought to focus on the arguments here and not sidelights of name-calling.
I didn't like this article by Joel Stein.So I thought I shall complain and hit Times Mag where it will hurt most....Cancel my remaining subscription. But then I remembered that I had got this subscription on a deal for free.
See my definitions above. Now THAT is bigotry. And you are probably an Indian Nationalist.
desi version of godwin's law. you just confirmed it. btw I think you're confusing "hindu nationalist" with "indian nationalist." freudian slip?
In the spirit of Gandhigiri we should all send him roses ( or Marigolds) or laddus as currybear suggests.
Actually, claiming that there is a "desi version" of Godwin's Law is technically a violation of Godwin's Law. If we are being litigious.
A few of Stein's pieces for the LA Times:
Finally, Some Prime Time Racism: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-stein19sep19,0,7897996.column
Why I'm in Favor of Torture: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-stein10oct10,0,2720632.column
How Jewish is Hollywood: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column
jagr721,
Re Richards: You gave a wrong example and leave it at that.
Re stupidity and poverty: No disagreement there. Actually it’s a double dose of ignorance. The first wave of “smart” immigrants = model minority. Their stupider cousins = no wonder these guys are poor. The discussion about hack writing matters because humor is subjective and racism isn’t as black and white as you make it to be. Their overlap is going to elicit different reactions. No amount of laughs excuse racist bs, but there is a difference between “You are racist” and, “That thing you said sounds racist. ”
My reaction was similar to the buddy who shared this on Google Reader - "WTF"? Couldn't really figure out where the writer was going with this. I still don't, so I'm not going to crusade as "Racist", rather hold it up as an example of "insert foot in mouth" and shitty humor. All the outrage will only make the writer feel better about himself, after all one of the objectives of art is to get a reaction from the people experiencing it. Now, if you really don't like what the guy has to say, call it unfunny, shitty, crappy and don't give it any attention at all. If no one laughs at a stand-up comedian's joke, it's generally pretty crushing to the comic on stage.
Whatever the guy was trying to string together just didn't work; it's like someone takes snippets of jokes, observations, anecdotes and tries to weave it together in some sort of narrative. Overall as a humor piece it was lazy and unfunny and seems like the editor was asleep at the wheel, or not even qualified to edit for good humor. Nor should it be surprising that people are pissed off about it due to varying interpretations people will extrapolate from it. That's what humor that severely misses the mark does, particularly race/cultural/gender type jokes. Venue, the vehicle for delivery, timing, set-up, context - they all matter for humor and by publishing a weirdly written piece in Time Magazine, this guy missed the mark on all of them IMO.
Race humor can be done funny, but it takes skill that very few seem to possess. It's also about context and the environment the "jokes" are being delivered in - people don't go to Time Magazine for humor generally speaking.
>We are however accomodationists by nature.
>See my definitions above. Now THAT is bigotry. And you are probably an Indian Nationalist.
I am not an Indian nationalist. I'm an Indian-American and like most of the people here my first concerns are with America. Once again, we find ourselves discussing semantics. Was what I said bigoted? Not too long ago, you were writing that all Stein was merely guilty of was "crude stereotypes" yet at the same time trivializing the outrage at the column. If I engaged in bigotry, will you admit Stein did as well. And if he did so, isn't it proper that we condemn for it.
As for my statement, here we enter the gray area of race. If statistics bear out a trait that is more commonly occurring amongst a certain race (whether or not race is socially constructed), is it "stereotypical" to assert that this trait is more likely amongst that race (whether or not it arises from genetics or cultural factors). Or is it stating a fact. I'm not interested in the semantics of it- saying Indians are accomodationists (I didn't say we all are). A few things, Stein's bigotry was based on a lie- that Indians are stupid (a) and that said stupidity causes India's poverty (b). Second, the context of him being white makes it, in my view, more inappropriate (but I realize others may disagree).
The tragedy here is that we are fighting amongst ourselves - and largely not over the content of Stein's column but over petty matters of pride - over who is chicken, and who is anonymous, and who did what with Godwin's Law. We are not seeking to understand what has happened, and decide how we should respond to prejudice against our people in one of America's most prominent magazines. Sepia is one of the most known Indian blogs- the fact that such a debate devolves as it has here (granted not to the point of calling each other Nazis) just suggests to me we don't have our act together. If I were an unethical advertising exec, debating whether or not to use a joky Indian accent for cheap laughs, but worried about the Indian community's response ... and had a glance at this thread, my decision would be bombs away. We can't even figure out if in fact there was bigotry against us or we are caught up in trying to determine if the column was funny or not (as if that mattered) - and that is when the personal insults aren't flying. I can see why the British divide and conquer strategy worked with such efficacy against us; we practically need no outside provocation to lose sight of what we are trying to accomplish, be driven to distraction by irrelevant issues, and so at each other's throats we cant' produce a coherent response when attacked.
>jagr721,
Re Richards: You gave a wrong example and leave it at that.
Nah, I won't leave it at that. See you can't win a debate though absentminded repetition in the absence of reason. Richards himself said that his anger was boiling over because that group of people would not stop talking. In Curb your Enthusiasm, they parody the incident and have Richards say, "If only I could say something to you that would make you as angry as you are making me.". That's what it was about. Your point is nonsense that he used the N word to make a critique at their ability or inability to understand the comedic material presented. I don't want to be driven to distraction over this point so that's all I have to say about it...
Damn, comments be flying. Hey jag, there are people here who have somehow managed to post opposing views without name-calling and cries of dumbing down the discussion. When you get a break from your real-world molotov throwings, you may want to look into it.
I asked the question, if Joel Stein traveled to another time and place, what would he have written? Then I answered:
I am very much not in favor of colored people in general, especially in Newark, N.J. The mostly white bustling industrial town I left after graduating high school in 1949 has become home to one of the largest black communities in the U.S., as familiar to the (mostly black) drug dealers as the cutting process of cocaine.
My town is totally unfamiliar to me. The bagel shop where I used to goad the Jews into giving me free schmears is now a cake shop with an oversized fridge. The bagel shop moved to a nicer part of town, because Jews love paying taxes. The food processing plant where I used to work is still a food processing plant except it's filled with black workers. The Italian restaurant that my friends and I refused black people work now employs four black people. There is an entire generation of white children in Newark who can find work anywhere, but have to work near black people!
I never knew how a bunch of people just a few minutes away chose a burgeoning, industrial town in New Jersey to populate. Were they from another mostly white town in this decreasingly white-owned country (sigh) that pushed them out? Are the white towns that looked the other way at black-on-black crime that bad? Did we accidentally put up a sign on the underground railroad that said Newark was a safe stop for their ancestors?
I read some history books that explained that after some black named Martin Luther King, Jr. had a dream in 1963, it became even more acceptable for blacks to do everything white people do. MLK Jr. apparently had some weird relationship with people in which he said they were all created equal.
Before the Revolution of 1967, in which I fought for my side on the streets, more and more blacks moved to Newark because its growing black community, decent schools, and proximity to good, stable, if slightly demeaning, work. For a while, we assumed all the blacks wanted was a decent chance. Then, in 1967, that lowly cabbie Smith passed officers DeSimone and Pontrelli on 15th Avenue, and we were no longer sure about the decent chance – they thought they were just like us. In the years after, the not-as-subdued blacks started fighting even harder for their own rights, and we started to fear they might actually win.
Eventually, there were more blacks than whites. At which point my townsfolk, who always called blacks “niggers” under their breath, just moved to another town where we caused property values to rise and priced the niggers out. One kid I knew in high school drove down a black street while I yelled “go back to Africa.” In retrospect, I question just how hard that would've been for them, seeing has how flights to Africa are pretty expensive and the blacks are all poor.
Like most of my friends in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, I hated a lot of things about the way my town changed: black girls were dating white guys (traitors), white girls (nigger lovers) were dating black guys, there were restaurants that seated blacks right alongside the whites (the Jews just wanted to make money). But sometime after I left, the town became a maze of vibrant hair salons and other black owned businesses. Whenever I go back from my beautiful white town in Arizona, I lock all the car doors loudly; just so the black people know I'm on to them.
To figure out why it bothered me so much, I talked to a friend of mine from high school. After we looked in the mirror and realized we were both white, he said that part of what I don't like about Newark is the opportunities that black people are being afforded, which probably would've been greater had MLK lived a few more years. In the decades I lived in Arizona, that area transformed from a place where white people did work for other white people to a place where we hired Mexicans to do the work for slave wages to a place where now we're trying to kick out the Mexicans that came here in the first place because they do the jobs far beneath us whites. We left it at that and high-fived.
Unlike previous groups I discriminate against – Jews, Micks, Chinks – Newark's first black generation quickly assimilated and played their role. But if you look at the current Facebook photos of students at my old high school, since renamed Martin Luther King, Jr., High, which you would have to show me how to do because I can't use a computer, you'll see that, while the population is at least half black, a lot of them look like they are enjoying their “equal rights.” Their freedom is so painfully American that if a qualified black man ran for President, he would probably win and I'd have to kill myself. Oh shit.
Dude, in the same article he says that if it wasn't for Indians (and their smarts) Edison would be economically wiped from the map. You are either choosing to ignore what he is saying or you don't get it. I suspect the latter, and will disengage. Time for bed anyways.
I will have to agree with Abhi. This article made me laugh (and yes I'm brown and not from NJ). There were a few mildly offensive part, but its satire! For those that have never read his work, read some columns in the LA Times. If you found this offensive, you probably wouldn't like his other stuff. I do agree with some of the commenters in that would the Community have been as offended if Joel was brown?
“Nah, I won’t leave it at that...”
You don’t get to be a literalist when it suits your argument and scream murder at stuff between the lines.
“Richards himself said...”
Right, he’s such an impartial observer. Have wonderful life. We’re done here.
The stupidity of the article aside, I can kind of see what he means about charmlessness. It's probably not what he had in mind, but a lot of cool ethnic stuff is built into suburban sprawl and cheerless strip-malls and we tend to live in cookie-cutter McMansions. It doesn't do much to maintain character for a neighborhood.
Granted, it's not really the fault of the Indians, Vietnamese, or whatever ethnic group happens to settle in an area so much as the fault of short-sighted urban planners. But part of me gets really sad whenever I see greenspace paved over to build blocks and blocks of identical tract housing.
Why is it that Indians can be made fun of but not blacks? I have seen this over and over again, and I have been really struggling to understand why this is the case. Here is my very tentative theory : people have very prominent racial biases. And it always shows up if you look for it.
People with a white sounding byline often get a far better response than people with a non-white sounding byline. In *black* communities in the Carribean, blacks with lighter skin were considered to be of a higher social standing than people with darker skin. Racism over the centuries has always been directed at people with darker skin. Why is this the case? It may be because - get this - everybody is racist. By everybody, I mean everybody. You, me, your father, your mother, white people, black people, everybody. The point is : you have to work hard to overcome this racial bias. This racial bias shows up time after time in experiments and research. For instance, every time you do one of these implicit association tests, you find that people who are darker are invariably associated with bad qualities and people who are lighter are associated with good qualities. But this is something that people have a really, *really* hard time accepting. That they too have racial biases. Everybody favors light skin more than dark skin, and this includes black people and brown people just as much as it includes white people. Note that these are not overt hatreds. These are simply biases.
Now, let us see if we can't understand Joel Stein's comments using this theory. If Mr. Stein made these same remarks about white people in Appalachia (that they are poor because they are dumber), that would simply sound wrong. If he made the same remarks about white people in Greece (that they are having economic problems because they are stupid), that would sound wrong too. And even if it did not, see what happens when we subtitute black people instead of brown. Joel Stein's piece is very clearly humor/an attempt at humor aimed at Indians, yes, BUT if people said the same thing about black people, that would be considered racist. So what is it about Joel Stein's remarks about brown people in India that somehow make them seem okay? So I would ask you to step back for a second and ask yourself if perhaps you, dear reader, are working hard enough to overcome your own racial bias. Perhaps you are. But perhaps you are not. Just substitute black people for wherever you see Indians referenced, and you will see what I mean.
It is not surprising to me that Abhi doesn't see the remarks as particularly offensive. He grew up in Michigan. I am familiar with the culture of Michigan/Minnesota/Wisconsin, et cetera. These are white majority states. Humor such as this is very common and may be hard to spot because it is practically ubiquitous (The Onion came out of Madison, Wisconsin), and the humor is deployed in a light-hearted, facile way. But "facile" does not equal "right". Just because they are facile about the humor does not mean that they have got something substantially insightful - it simply means that they are expressing what comes to them naturally. Dig deeper and you find that there are deep-seated cultural preferences that people from these states. These preferences too inceidentally show up in experiment after experiment. I can send you papers and references but this is about all you really need. Anyway, just see Nimesh Patel's comment #172. That pretty much nails it.
>> Why is it that Indians can be made fun of but not blacks?
> Because Indians in the USA are, by and large, well educated and wealthy while there is a wide swath of Blacks who are still stuck in a poverty trap?
There are plenty of poor Indians too.
We all know there are poor Indians. Sometimes we make general statements because having to include 1,001 obvious caveats that everyone is already aware of every time we say something is bloody tiresome.
That should read "isn't generally rich."
>Dude, in the same article he says that if it wasn't for Indians (and their smarts) Edison would be economically wiped from the map. You are either choosing to ignore what he is saying or you don't get it. I suspect the latter, and will disengage. Time for bed anyways.
Ugh. We are splitting hairs at this point (for sake of debate, I re-read the article and didn't see any mention Stein makes of Indians keeping Edison from being economically wiped from the map. The mayor makes a few points in our defense.)
The money quote is "After the law passed, when I was a kid, a few engineers and doctors from Gujarat moved to Edison because of its proximity to AT&T, good schools and reasonably priced, if slightly deteriorating, post–WW II housing. For a while, we assumed all Indians were geniuses. Then, in the 1980s, the doctors and engineers brought over their merchant cousins, and we were no longer so sure about the genius thing. In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants brought their even-less-bright cousins, and we started to understand why India is so damn poor."
The fact that ANY Indian or Indian-American can sit here and supply one rationalization after another for Stein and this utterance is beyond me. It is sickening. The Jewish community is to be admired not merely for intelligence of an academic variety, but of applied intelligence in service of their community and in defense of their people. They pride themselves on their backbone, their duty to one another, not on some kind of neutered objectivity on such matters. The Torah speaks of Tzedakah - of fellowship with other Jews, by providing for a fellow Jew in a time of need. I wonder what Hindi word would apply to someone who leaps to the defense of someone who shames our own community, who is only too quick to justify belittling words made at our expense.
I grew up in San Jose, California from age 3-16. You pretty much can't get more diverse than that. Try again dude you are totally floundering.
Did you live in Michigan for any appreciable amount of time? His whole point is that in some places you can get acculturated to racial but not racist humor. If you lived in any such places, especially during high-school, the acculturation would still happen.
> His whole point is that in some places you can get acculturated to racial but not racist humor. If you lived in any such places, especially during high-school, the acculturation would still happen.
Don't disagree with that. The question is why does it even happen. The point with the Michigan sense of humor is that it is kind of what America considers typical satire. The Onion is pretty popular all over America, right? Anyway, the question is - is it possible that people coming over to Joel Stein's defense - even if they are Indian - are acting out their own biases?
> Did you live in Michigan for any appreciable amount of time?
No, but in a different state around there. It seems like that whole Michigan thing need not be brought in at all. I don't really know Abhi enough so I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions, but this ("The stupidity of the article aside, I can kind of see what he means about charmlessness. It's probably not what he had in mind, but a lot of cool ethnic stuff is built into suburban sprawl and cheerless strip-malls and we tend to live in cookie-cutter McMansions. It doesn't do much to maintain character for a neighborhood.") is kind of what I was talking about. You are asking if we can see different ways in which the "charmlessness" adjective would actually fit. Even if that is not what Joel Stein is even talking about. It is okay to ask if it fits because of the suburbia factor, but it looks like Joel Stein *is* trying to single out Indians. Why don't Indians have each other's back in situations like this when clearly the group is being singled out?
Usually when I see this kind of thing my reaction is pity more than umbrage. The Carlos Mencia school of comedy, where you just say insensitive, un-PC stuff just for the sake of being "edgy" was never really funny and is generally the refuge of a man without talent desperately jockeying for approval.
That said, I do make extravagantly offensive ethnic jokes all the time. So feel free to pity me too.
>Why don't Indians have each other's back in situations like this when clearly the group is being singled out?
Shankar,
That's the million dollar question. Perhaps one day the accomodationists in the Ind-Am community will be pushed aside - just as AIPAC and ADL have become dominant amidst the Jewish community. Only then can we push back with any success. It is impossible for those of us who actually bother to be loyal -- to fight a two-front war- one with people like Stein, and the other with those within our own community who rejoice at justifying such behavior either from naive ignorance or a selfish kind of cowardice.
> but it's mostly a tone of "My town's all different and I'm not sure I like it" rather than "Indians suck."
No- it's a tone that Indians wear too much cologne, don't assimilate, have made charmless strip malls, and the majority are stupid (hence India being 3rd world).
> If Edison was taken over by Khmer people he'd be making unfunny comments about Khmer culture instead.
Were that the case, let the f*cking Khmer people deal with that. We don't have the great fortune of falling through a time-space wormhole and living in that alternative universe; we inhabit this universe and therefore are dealing with reality and the article Stein actually wrote.
Warning: Half-assed analysis follows with leaks of emotion pent-up since the last 9 years.
The Lazy Satirist
The Stein piece is supposed to satire an old white fellow who grew up in Edison lamenting the ouster of his white childhood neighborhood by a stinkie (his concept) weird immigrant wonderland.
The only problem is that he really *is* an old white fellow who grew up in Edison ! And the entire piece is in character. Tough one to work out to be funny and current and informational and non-insulting and non-sticky to oneself at the same time (and his wiki entry says he is a journalist and taught a humor class at Princeton ? Puh-leez).
It is hard to see this as anything other than a veiled rant with real feelings hiding under the surface. Without a character transformation or change of heart the Archie Bunker (brilliant show, he should take a look) of Edison will appear to remain his intolerant self which does no service to the progressive society he is supposed to be writing to. Or are you serving someone else ? Your bank account maybe ? How easy was it to get this past the editor I wonder ? How is this journalism ? Even editorials provide some value. Being a troll is not one of them.
Joel is not clever enough and maybe there is not enough "material" out there that is outside the overdone stereotype realm for him to succeed... hey but it is a paycheck, no ? The lack of depth in the satire tells me he threw this out in an afternoon without much afterthought. His little tweet response does not constitute an apology (on the contrary, he feigns to be a victim) he still does not show any understanding of his offenses.
I really detest this kind of satire, where the lines are so blurred you cannot tell who is supposed to be vindicated. the original inhabitants, the new immigrants ? The bait (his epithets) actually turns out to be not as fake as it could be but almost too real. He does not "undo" the fake tirade successfully and in fact seems to almost cathartically enjoy it while laying bare some of his own prejudices while hiding behind various licenses he apparently has.
Does not matter what his intent is, I only have his words to judge.
If that is total confusion to you then how about this for satire:
"Hm, I want to write about how frustrating change can be for white America (yes, I am white, check) given the immigration issue these days and maybe people can laugh about it. And people love to laugh about Indians so I can bait them while I educate them and maybe soften them up to Indians, even the lower class ones (yes I am middle/upper class, check) making me a hero. So since I cannot write too much about the Indian experience since I lack personal experience with them (have bourgeois Indian friends I can count on to support me, check) let me write a satire of my nostalgic self spouting intolerant views about Indian immigrants invading my actual hometown. The source material is from my own childhood and I can couch any sterotyping with a few positive statistics about Indians. I do not have any positive personal anecdotes, oh well not necessary. And this will be a cool and edgy piece since Americans: (1) are reluctant to say they fear Indians because they fit terrorist profiles but will be trans/in-formed by the few stats I whip out and thus will have their guilt assuaged (2) believe most immigrant issues are about the Mexican border and the rise of the Latin demographic and I am addressing a minority that has a big presence in certain areas that many not be aware of (3) believe in the First Amendment and since this is satire I am protected, screw the critics (4) feel that latent racism is the new _____ (5) guarantee any publicity about me is good publicity. My article will have lots of hits and will earn a raise ! 6) know as do I that Indians are wimps in this country thankfully because of their immigrant status (I am not, check) so there won't be too much of a backlash (6) are intolerant of immigrants and Indians anyway and can enjoy the satire as if it is for real, further boosting my readership ! (7) everyone laughs at the poor, just tap into the Slumdog vibe when you need to ! "
Not great satire but you get it.
By the way I am 2 years older than Joel and arrived on this soil from India before he was born. Not that I should be more entitled as a result, but can I at least complain about *his* individual arrival on this planet and his noise pollution ? I have lefty-Jewish friends (not many right wing ones) and they do not make the same mistakes and certainly don't get it published in a major magazine.
To be the richest country in the world and then let yourself be colonized by a bunch of Pommies who rape all your resources and then you end up essentially worshiping their culture and beauty standards and once they leave you try and follow them to their country, you have to be pretty stupid, no?
Abhi, by relying on dictionary definitions of "racist" and "bigotry" you are off the mark in this discussion. You folks set up this blog as a voice for South Asians. Well the voice spoke when it asked Anna to comment on this piece. Whether Webster's defines Stein as a racist is not the point. This article has offended many people in this community . It's not ok to give Stein a pass. It's not ok to say "awww shucks, can't ya'll take a joke?" Plenty of Stein's articles are mean-spirited and not particularly funny. Who cares. This mean-spirited and unfunny article, though, I do care about. Taking offense is justified. Don't let anyone tell you that it is not.
>And this will be a cool and edgy piece since Americans: (1)
Anon,
You forgot to add (8) Because I am a liberal, generally holding views favorable to minorities in general, and I make a few positive comments about them to show that I am not motivated by simple-minded hatred. This is increasingly fashionable on the left since few can argue with credibility that they are actually unrepentant bigots with a serious hatred of people of color. No instead, they practically use their liberalism as a free pass to make insulting generalizations of minorities as they please. They can usually get away with it because they are joined by other white liberals who won't fault their own and white redneck conservatives who almost never come to the defense of any minority. Dress it up as humor and you're good to go.
(6) is right on the money.
wow strong oversensitivity to racial issues
LOL. you suck. I found the article hill a ree us!! He is bang on about Indians bringing in their stupider cousins and so on... You probably mad because you are one of the stupider ones! lol lol lol!!! and i got to learn a new word with which to call those cheap jersey bastards. Guindians!! lol lol lol!!
And you know what kids, it is cool to be racist. Don't let the anal uppty highbrow crowd fool you. Racism pays.. look at Russell Peters.
The response I just sent off to Time:
Editors,
I was extremely disappointed to see Joel Stein's article “My Own Private India in your magazine. I am sure that you have received many responses on the racist implications of the article, so I shall not belabor that point, although I will mention that I found this article to be a thoroughly failed attempt at humor. However, the most repulsive aspect of the article was Mr. Stein's reference to India's poverty, as explained by the intelligence of its citizens. To poke fun at poverty, which exists in India at a gut-wrenching level that most Americans cannot even dream of, is vile and cruel. It is also, quite frankly, untrue, which is what makes Mr. Stein's comment unforgiveable.
In his Facebook and Twitter comments about the angered response to this article, Mr. Stein writes: "Didn't meant [sic] to insult Indians with my column this week. Also stupidly assumed their emails would follow that Gandhi non-violence thing." His continued stereotyping is evident in this assumption that all Indians would follow a certain response to his column. However, more importantly, I suspect that it is this sort of an assumption - that Indians are passive, docile, and accommodating of even the most atrocious injustices against them - that not only allowed Mr. Stein the confidence to write such a piece, but also allowed Time to feel comfortable to publish it. I sincerely wonder whether Mr. Stein or Time would have included anything that referred in a similar manner to the Jewish, African-American, or Latino communities of the US. Unfortunately, I need not wonder much, as I suspect that the answer would be a resounding negative.
And if Mr. Stein is still worried that "us" Indians have lost touch with our Gandhian roots, he need not worry himself - my satyagraha (nonviolent resistance) is still very much present, and shall be reflected in my decision to avoid reading his writing (or Time magazine) at any point in the foreseeable future.
Sincerely,
Amudha Poola
as someone who is mostly of Irish, Spanish, and Mestizo descent I am deeply offended by this article. I really wish people didn't actually think like this and I continue to be amazed that this kind of blatant racism is made legitimate in the press. These kind of people that write articles like this and harbor thoughts like his are myopic, uncultured, and resistant to change. We are all from Africa...we must ALL unite against racism,
Great letter ak.
Again to make some joke that poverty = lack of intelligence is disgusting. And it is relevant that someone of Jewish ancestory, a huge population in the US toiled in slums and a huge population in Europe toiled in abject poverty and serfdom, to make jest of this. This sort of thinking poverty = stupidity is what drove many eugenics movements. Unlike Abhi, I don't think b/c he gives a self-deprecating comment on his own community as an excuse.
Most of the Indians I know want issues of poverty of India to be on the forefront. B/c that equates discussion and change. Joking about poverty and intelligence is what I find shows the writer's own lack of intelligence.
And no, I doubt Mr. Stein would make a comment like this about Africans or Latinos. And imo unfortunately there are some Indian leftists, but they shouldn't appropriate the "left" or "liberal" slogan and don't speak for many liberals, who regularly will denounce racism against Latinos and other minorities, but when it comes to directly denouncing racism, stereotyping on their own community, they don't stand up, b/c they are too "liberal" too cool to be bothered.
There's a place to talk about Indian poverty or poverty anywhere in the world - a poverty that causes death and despair. But Stein's article wasn't it.
Everyday Indian newspapers, columnists, editorialists, social scientists write about poverty, corruption, castism, religious tension,etc as they should to bring attention to social problems (and since we have free press this is easier done, than say in many other developing countries.) I know my offense doesn't have anything to do with "he said India is poor" so it's supposed to hurt my Indian nationalism and I seriously doubt most of the other desis writing in aren't bothered by that and understand it's necessary for social change.
one of the problems people are having in getting at the humor in the piece is that the writer has an assumed persona - a mix of snarky, sophomoric, in your face, but still quite an intelligent person, well aware of the range of people who immigrated here from india, the floodgate that opened after immigration was liberalized, the way the desis have renewed and exploited (in a positive sense) the market in NJ, succeeded brilliantly, made it their own, and created a strong vibrant community. all this is in there. the desi crowd there also deserves a bit of ridicule and ribbing. this indicates that desis have arrived, we can laugh at ourselves.
i totally don't get this whining about "why don't you make fun of the jews who got gassed" crap. there is no parallel. that is truly a moronic comment. nobody, but nobody, can laugh at themselves better than jews. why do you think many comedians are also jews?
what stein has attempted here is that exact kind of humor.
get over it and stop the stupid rant mail to time magazine. it is embarrassing.
Yes, I went to the University of Michigan for four years, You know, the University with the the most activist brown population of any student body in the U.S. All my friends are hard core South Asian activisty types. You guys just don't freakin get it. I will be leading the charge up the hill when it is real racism or bigotry. This is just oversensitivity by people (even those I am hugely respect like other bloggers on this site) that don't see the difference between racism and bad humor and others who are charged up and desperate to prove that desis don't (or shouldn't) turn the other cheek.
@browngirl "get over it and stop the stupid rant mail to time magazine. it is embarrassing."
This is precisely the kind of selfish spinelessness that one of the posters -jagr721 has so eloquently pointed out. There is nothing to feel embarrassed about and nobody needs to get over anything when they perceive slight to their self respect.
I like George Carlin and all but Eddie Murphy and Richard Pryor are not Niggers they are black. Not to harp on this more but look what else came out of Micheal Richards mouth he also said "we hung you from trees and stuck a fork up you a$$". So don't equate black with nigger again thank you.
Passerby and others. Lets stop with the name calling. We can agree to disagree. We may need to more strictly enforce the comment policy. If you can't be polite and make your points then don't comment.
"This is precisely the kind of selfish spinelessness that one of the posters -jagr721 has so eloquently pointed out. There is nothing to feel embarrassed about and nobody needs to get over anything when they perceive slight to their self respect. "
exactly what is the slight to your self-respect?
I think you missed the point. Carlin was doing a standup act, and he said this to get his point across that saying the word is only offensive depending on the context. Carlin put it in a funny context, Michael Richards did not, although his jokes about being lynched and burned alive were more offensive than his use of the word nigger. Russell Peters, when doing an act on Def Comedy Jam, even showed how it could be used as a one-word answer, depending on the question being asked. The audience laughed. Now, if Peters was hanging out at a bar afterwards, and used it casually, he would be unlikely to get the same response.
OTOH, Stein sarcastically complaining that some white people in Edison could do no better than coin the term "dot-head" is of much poorer comedic quality. Is the joke that white people in Edison could have done better, like "dune-coon"? Is it that it is tough to slur a group that is relatively recent in town?
Another example, in the 1980's, Jesse Jackson was caught calling NYC "Hymie-town". Not funny, given the context. Eddie Murphy parodied him, and sang a song called "Hymie-town" on SNL. Funny stuff.
Thanks, Joel, for bringing back bad memories. Like the time my desi friends and I were fired from AT&T for showing up drunk at work and stealing money from petty cash.
Nice headline: Edison-raised writer Joel Stein has a talent for ticking people off
@brown girl "exactly what is the slight to your self-respect?"
please refer to the original bloggers post where she has dissected the article inside out and then some.
more appalling than anything is the fact that this disguised racist rant has been carried in an established and well-regarded(not anymore i guess) news magazine that is read the world over. just for that I think it is OK and not embarrassing to register a protest. This is a mainstream magazine and lampooning of our ways, beliefs and condition, that do not cause harm to anybody, should not become a mainstream pass time.
From Joel Stein's piece:
Not to pour more ghee over the agni, because the issue is inflammatory enough, wasn't anybody outraged by the blatant sacrilegiousness of Stein's "humorous" references to Hindu gods?
Is nothing sacred anymore? Is it civilized behavior to denigrate somebody's god in the name of creative license? We should thank the same gods that our schools are doing such a poor job or else our children would have been called "elephant face" or worse.
Shameful, Mr. Stein! I caught the self-deprecating part about our American school system but your punch line crossed the line. By a mile. Try doing that with the Prophet and there would be a fatwah on your head. Ask Salman Rushdie. Try it with Jesus and you will probably lose your gig with an already-starved-for-ad-revenue Time magazine. But Indians are less than 1% of the US population and Hindus even less. So you got away with it.
But Indians are less than 1% of the US population and Hindus even less. So you got away with it.
It's the small population and the fact that Indians are statistically wealthy and I suppose by some considered privileged. Sorry but that didn't work for other minorities that held perceived "privileged" minority status in other countries from being killed and dispossessed...German Jews come to mind; and yeah I'm invoking Godwin...but there are so many good lessons to be learned from WWII and also I was steeped in this Western history growing up in the West.
I don't want for pc to override the humor in life. From what I've heard of Russel Peters I think he's pretty funny. I can laugh at a lot of things about desis or Indians or Hindus or certain caste communities...but there was so much in that article that wasn't funny, was inaccurate and smacked of xenophobia and essentializing the poor as deserving of their fate. Kindof reminds me when I see in some Hindi movies the buffoon comedian being a "low" caste person, and everyone is supposed to laugh it off.
what was unfunny was Anna's attempt at humour or "satire" as folks would like to inflate it to appear to be.
the article by this guy at TIME is not terribly funny either, just an attempt at satire, where the guy's nostalgia is overrun by his fears and almost-rage about a changing world he will not be able to control (midlife-crisis?). i agree with him though that desis make for aesthetically unappealing immigrants. boston_mahesh talked of Devon ave... yes, what a dump that place is, unkempt, chaotic, no regard whatsoever for aesthetics, neither inside the stores, nor out on the street, nor the stuff they sell.
the commentator here who's missing a Pizza Hut and a Dairy Queen - i'm so sorry for you, that you had to grow up in a deficient environment of strip malls and depressing town-planning based on the principles that drive commerce in this country, and that you miss it, like this TIME guy is missing his own youth of multiplexes & A&Ps.
bad aesthetics replaced by bad aesthetics, juvenile attempt at "satire" in response to a sad attempt at humour.
One of my favorite sections of TIME was the essay at the very end. Typically Joel Stein wrote them and I actually liked his previous style of writing. This is just embarrassing and offensive. Did he really run out of ideas for topics that he thought it was time to pull out the "ridicule a minority except for latinos, african americans or even Muslims (because we all know that all Hell breaks loose if there is anything negative said about Muslims)" card? I'd be happy if he never writes for TIME again.
@Brown girl
"i totally don't get this whining about "why don't you make fun of the jews who got gassed" crap. there is no parallel. that is truly a moronic comment. nobody, but nobody, can laugh at themselves better than jews."
As the author of that statement - I'll agree it is about as moronic as Mr. Steins article.
Enough with the hypocrisy. Let's see TIME publish an article that mocks Auschwitz or calls African Americans the N word.
Something like that is rude. Rude isn't funny. Stein's article is an epic fail.
I see everyone making a big deal about any racist comment that is made about a person who is black/african american or Jewish, but no one seems to care when words are used to offend Asians/Indians. In this case that no one is "Time Magazine". Racism is racism no matter what color, creed or country its referred to. It's unacceptable for Time magazine to even endorse a person who writes an article of such nature. If you look back at holocaust, the fuel that ignited the nazi soldiers to commit the inhumane acts were the propoganda letters and videos created by the Nazis. Stirring up any such feelings among the readers towards a specific race or group of people is just as despicable as what the Nazis did. I feel sorry for Joel Stein, did he forget his forefathers moved here from europe somewhere, may be he doesnt realize that his forefathers were immigrants and they perhaps created the same kind of feelings among some native americans?!?!? I don't think Joe Stein is a Native American, as anna mentioned he is most likely Jewish, does he forget the fact that his forefathers migrated to the US and probably lived in poorer conditions to survive so that their future generations(Joel Stein) can see a better day. Negative propaganda showing a group of people in bad light is and has always been the tool to ignite racism and one group did it the best, The Nazis! And you can see what followed.
i like the passion with which anna has expressed herself. unfortunately it is overheated and i don't get what all this outrage and violent imagery is all about.
like abhi said, let's get outraged over real racism and real bigotry. by writing to Time all outraged over a silly comic piece you make all desis look like stupid hicks who don't get it. that is what is embarrassing.
the Time magazine issue was about Thomas Edison and how his ideas changed america. stein decided to riff on that by picking on Edison NJ. everybody likes to pick on NJ. just saying NJ makes one want to laugh. or gag.
he is not mourning the passing of the great town of edison, for god's sake. have you visited edison before the desis took over? it was ugly then, it is ugly now. that is the joke.
Actually Stein didn't miss any racist stereotypes.
"Guidos"? Dude.
I'm not sure if you're used to the Internet and the Web, but it's considered polite and almost de rigueur to include a link to whatever the hell it is you are ranting about.
Is there a link somewhere?
@brown girl
if denigrating somebody's beliefs and making fun of their poverty is comic to you then there is no point even having this discussion, you are the polished and assimilated post-modernist liberal and I'm that stupid hick still clinging on to old-age values and beliefs.
Joel Stein is a fucking wanker. Not only was the article stupid, offensive, and not even close to funny, it was incredibly poorly written.
what a douche. Dude makes me embarrassed (again) to be white. On behalf of white-people-who-are-not-fucking-racists, please accept my apology.
Adding, with a name like "Stein", Joel should know what it's like be marginalized. shit, I'm only half-jewish, and I remember being harassed and beaten up by a 6th grade bigot on a nearly daily basis until I finally snapped and gave him a much deserved ass-kicking.
(Deleted)
Stein's piece was a total fail.
You cant say that this is satire, because the whole point of the article was how his boyhood town was perfect, until Indians who were not rich moved in. The whole "joke" is how a race of people ruined his memories. It is the epitome of "rich white guy crying like a spoiled baby" syndrome. "Ohhhh my god!! The place where I used to buy pizza is not there anymore! Where is my pen?" His anger isnt based on anything real and when a person spends this much energy writing about something that is in his head and totally imaginary, his anger comes from something deeper.
Then he has a facebook comment about his thoughts on how all Indians were supposed to be "Gandhian".
These are not the comments of a intelligent writer trying to blow your mind. This is the stuff racist say when they get so mad, all they can say is "You people smell and eat watermellon!" When a black person does something violent, they sarcastically say "Well so much for the MLK dream."
The Stein piece is stupid. But the roof of the candy shop is inappropriate because it used to be a Pizza Hut (which have funny red roofs) and is now no longer a Pizza Hut.
According to wikipedia:
"Edison was ranked the 28th most livable small city in America by Money Magazine, and the 2nd in New Jersey in 2006 in Money Magazine's "Best Places To Live".[7] In 2008, Money Magazine ranked Edison 35 out of the top 100 places to live in America.[8] Edison Township was not on the 2007 list because that year's list included only municipalities with a population of 50,000 or less. In the 2006 survey of America's Safest Cities, the township was ranked 23rd, out of 371 cities included nationwide, in the 13th annual Morgan Quitno survey.[9] In 2009, Edison was ranked as one of "America's 10 Best Places to Grow Up" by U.S. News and World Report. The rankings focused on low crime, strong schools, green spaces, and abundance of recreational activities.[10]"
Also:
Edison is primarily a middle-class and upper middle-class community with more than 75 ethnic communities represented. Edison has a large Jewish community next to Highland Park, with multiple synagogues located in Edison. Edison also has a growing Indian community and a number of temples serving the religious needs of the community. Reflecting the number of Edison's residents from India and China, the township has sister city arrangements with Shijiazhuang, China,[15] and Baroda, India.[16] There is also a large Muslim population in Edison, with several mosques serving the community.
Wow, the movie theater is still showing movies. The towns where I grew up that are all shut down. Shops are open and small businesses are still operating? Out here in the Midwest all of our small town shops are 3/4 vacant. Houses are occupied and mortgages are being paid? Holy moly, ours are vacant and foreclosed. What are those Indian people up to there in Edison?
Now, that is how it is done. Care to give writing lessons to Stein?
1) There was no "humor" tag on this post. It wasn't an "attempt" at anything. Joel Stein was the one who made the "attempt at humor", not me.
2) No one is inflating anything, except for maybe these nice people. This post isn't up for a Pulitzer, it's a cri de coeur which was banged out at 4am. I never said it was literature. I will say that it is an authentic, angry response to an utterly disrespectful and inappropriate pile of cliches, stereotypes and insults served on the platter of what was once a venerable magazine.
And as for this drive-by shitting:
I'm not sure if you're accustomed to being courteous or detail-oriented but did you read the part of the "rant" which mentioned not wanting to give more page views to this train wreck? I'm not down with rewarding his ass. If you disagree with that point, in the time it took you to hiss anonymously, you could've just googled it. But that wouldn't have afforded you with the opportunity for risk-free confrontation, I know. Yes, there is a link somewhere.
To the rest of you, thank you for being 95% civil. While many of you are still heated about this, let's remember that we get nowhere by attacking others, whether they be other minorities or other mutineers*. If you want to disrespect Joel Stein, feel free. He threw the first punch.
*For some of our newer readers, who may be unaware-- if you're here, you're a Mutineer. That term is not reserved for Bloggers or contributors to this site. :)
Well said Anna.
Hey Stein, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
I am a Jew. I am married to a Desi. My child is a HinJew.
Joel Stein is a turd. Honestly. No reason to think that crap was even dipping a pinky toe in the pool of acceptability. I think he was like "hey, I am a minority, I have brown friends, let me be a giant douche and see if it flies"
ugh.
His stupid little trotting out of Gandhi was proof positive that people still misinterpret the hell out of what Gandhi meant. And he also thinks that desi = doormat. Unacceptable. Fail.
And Time is just as culpable for letting it fly.
And hey Joel, I think the Nataraj in my living room just flipped you the bird. Just sayin.
The Stein article was hilarious, and fairly on-point regarding the changes in Edison over the past 25 years. If anything, Stein is lampooning the knee-jerk reactions and ignorance of people who actually are racist, as much as he's making fun of immigrants. His point is that immigration comes with both good and bad changes, and that people aren't necessarily going to love those changes (feelings to which they are completely entitled, IMO), but that there's a real, substantive difference between disliking those changes and racism. And before I'm accused of being whatever the South Asian equivalent of an Uncle Tom is, I was born and raised in Edison, and I'm Indian, so I probably have more feelings at stake in this than the average commenter.
I am so glad that I wasn't the only person who found Joel Stein's latest column both unfunny and obnoxious. I (used to?) really like Stein and look forward to reading his column every week. I really tried to interpret his words as satire, but they really came off -- yup -- racist. Really mystified that Time's editors felt this column pass muster. Fail!
There's a difference between being entitled to one's feelings and spewing them via an international platform which legitimizes whatever they may be, no matter how indefensible.
To some, the article may be "fairly on-point" about a changing Edison, but it is indefensible to blame some of the most impoverished people on this planet for their considerable, agonizing misery and to attribute their circumstances to stupidity. People from Edison may have more of a stake in this than I do, but all people should condemn such a barbaric attack on the most vulnerable of our distant cousins.
@ brown girl #199 - On the point that we should stop whining - I do disagree, if only because that mentality - that complaining is 'whining' or that it is best to shut up and be a spectator when insults are thrown at us - is exactly what has made us an easy target as a community. That is why the comments about daring to make similar jokes about other communities are relevant. One of the things that I admire about the Jewish American community is that in so little time, they have garnered so much respect. The reason for this is because they have DEMANDED this respect. And speaking of Jews in America - yes, they make fun of themselves (and with amusing results, I may add), but most of their jokes have to do with cultural practises and behaviours of Jews - the point being that even they have limits as to what is fodder for self-deprecation. Lastly, brown girl, what happened to basic individual freedom - if I want to write a letter, I'll write a letter, and I don't understand how that's embarrassing to you (or maybe I do, since, arguably, I could find your desire to ignore the implications of this article equally, if not more, embarrassing).
The thing is, it's not clear from this article that he has no genuine ill will towards Indians, or that he's not racist against them. This is reflected, partly, in the fact that this piece lacked any humour (i.e., it really is confusing as to what his intent is, because it was so poorly written). It is also reflected in the fact that the article indicates, in no way, any positive connection that he has to ANY Indians. Yes, he may write that they have succeeded, but he doesn't reflect that that is something that he actually admires as applied to Indians.
Indian americans are finally discovering the double standards of jewish americans. Steven spielberg's Indiana jones movie, David mamet portrayal of indians in glengarry glen ross or joel stein's portrayal of indians and indian americans in edison are part of a pattern. Southern whites are used to the depictions of southern whites in Hollywood movies as stupid and racist. The reverse is never tolerated. American critics of Israel are routinely dismmissed as anti-semitic. Jewish american groups in the US and Canada always demand laws against "hate speech" which is any speech that criticizes jewish interests.
The pattern you see is about guys in show business. It bears no relation to say, how a Jewish doctor, business-owner, or accountant views the world.
Ha ha, it is always on threads like these the bigots come out. 232 is a classic example. Also, I am not sure why everyone has to feel about this piece one way or the other. The author of this post definitely didn’t ask everyone to be as outraged as she so I don’t know why some commenters have to ridicule everyone who doesn’t agree with their point of view.
In that sense, Stein's article offends me not as an Indian, but as a guy who enjoys comedy.
But anyway, back to the point. Being exposed to racially insensitive humor does desensitize you to a lot of things. I grew up in the Bible Belt around friends who didn't hesitate to use racial slurs (including that which shall not be printed). It was a very irreverent style of humor that had no regard at all for being politically correct. It wasn't actually until I went to college in the midwest when I noticed people being visibly uncomfortable with those kinds of jokes that I started to realize what was acceptable in my hometown was way over the line in other places.
Anna's rant gave me a headache. That's offensive.
Vanity Fair: Time's Joel Stein tries to fit all known Indian stereotypes into single column
Well, he left one untouched...so he's not that big a dick.
@ brown girl #199 - On the point that we should stop whining - I do disagree, if only because that mentality - that complaining is 'whining' or that it is best to shut up and be a spectator when insults are thrown at us - is exactly what has made us an easy target as a community. ...
The thing is, it's not clear from this article that he has no genuine ill will towards Indians, or that he's not racist against them. This is reflected, partly, in the fact that this piece lacked any humour (i.e., it really is confusing as to what his intent is, because it was so poorly written). It is also reflected in the fact that the article indicates, in no way, any positive connection that he has to ANY Indians. Yes, he may write that they have succeeded, but he doesn't reflect that that is something that he actually admires as applied to Indians.
what are you complaining about exactly? that stein is not funny? that he says india is poor? that he says not all indians are geniuses - doctors and engineers - and that some are not so bright?
that thing about "we started to understand why india is so damn poor" i agree is mystifying. i can only surmise that what he is trying to say connects with the paragraph a little bit above - which is actually quite witty and shows a bit of home-work- wondering why they all would choose edison of all places in the whole of USA to come to. that they are so unimaginative and crowd inot one place? i don't know. badly thought through.
on the whole the column IS positive - as positive as a satirist such stein could be.
as for the gandhi comment - my guess is he's getting a lot of hate-mail offering to do more episiotomies. not very non-violent eh?
LOL! Actually that's the one that an editor deleted. Time does have standards, you know.
really?
I am one of the original desis who came in 1970. I did not find it quite funny. Not offended at all.
May be I live too far from Edison.
Sorry, meant to write I did find it quite funny.
You criticism is overwrought. I would understand if it came from a recent immigrant, but apparently coming from someone who was apparently born and brought up here it is quite mystifying to me.
> I will be leading the charge up the hill when it is real racism or bigotry.
Abhi,
That's cold comfort. My guess is someone like yourself doesn't have the antennae to gauge effectively whether others are making prejudiced comments about the Indian community unless they actually call us a macacca - and at that point, we hardly need any rallying. This is nothing more than the blind leading the blind. In fact, in this particular case, it appears that those siding with Stein can label the rest of us as "overly sensitive" "Indian nationalists", but the minute we respond back and question the loyalty of others, you raise the specter of "enforcing the comments policy" which is thinly veiled censorship against those who disagree with you while permitting you and those who share your view to continue to be condescending to those of us who have issue with Stein.
If in fact we ever do develop the kind of leadership necessary to combat this kind of subtle bigotry, he/she will need to have copious social awareness and emotional intelligence. Concepts such as race and bigotry aren't binary matters and the information around these subjects aren't highly structured like chemistry or calculus. It is not for the faint of heart or for those who are used to doing a calculation and getting a definitive answer. Deconstructing prejudice is one of the hardest things to do because our emotions cloud our judgment and instinct instructs us to avoid what is hurtful, to justify it in order to get past it. We can let our political partisanship, our own painful life experiences interfere with our sense of what's best for our community.
The simplest thing in the world is to deny racism. Those arguing that Stein did in fact engage in bigotry have laid out their arguments. The deniers have chosen not to engage these arguments. They simply repeat ad infinitum that "they themselves weren't offended", thus no racism, no bigotry. This is why in the history of civil rights, those who refused to admit the racism before them, were not begged and pleaded with indefinitely. They were pushed aside because those who are willfully blind cannot be made to see.
anon @ 217
I've posted a link to the article in message 89. Here ya go
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1999416,00.html
I think it's more offensive for someone who was raised in the US, as it kind of brings back the whole "not real American" because of our ethnicity vibe..
That we are "foreigners" who've taken over an American town, and made it unrecognizable to the 'real Americans' like Joel who grew up there..
I know it is meant to be satirical, but it was a little too close to how i suspect many 'white Americans" may really feel.
Just wanted to add my vote for the "not racist" crowd. For starters, let me nit-pick about one of the jokes here. The inappropriate roof joke had to do with the fact that the building was a PIZZA HUT before it became a sweet shop, with typical Pizza Hut architecture. If the building had become a post office, you'd expect the same comment. I love all the bloggers on this web site, but I've had it up to here with oversensitive Desi rants. And honestly, my visits to Edison have brought me to the same conclusions that Stein has, viz a viz Guindians.
SAALT (and sometimes I agree with their positions and sometimes I don't) has issued a response with an option to sign a petition; sign the position if you are offended with STein's crap article:
http://www.saalt.org/
SAALT responds to TIME article, "My Private India" by Joel Stein. Read letter to the editor from SAALT's Executive Director, Deepa Iyer, here. Also, please sign the petition to raise your concerns here.
Stein's satire is definitely less racist and offensive than the many references to 'little eyed' people and 'kallos', uttered without even a blink, that I hear many Indian gatherings, especially if they have recent immigrants.
Grow up.
...but I'll admit it cuts a little close all the same. I didn't particularly LIKE the column, but I didn't dislike enough to think it warrants being up in arms about it.
(1) First, thanks to anna for quoting me.
(2) I lean towards the Abhi/Amardeep angle on this
(3) What GujuDude said (again, along Abhi's & Amardeep's lines)
(4) It was a monstrously failed attempt at satire/humor, and there is zero excuse for Time Magazine not having properly edited this horribly mangled, slapped-together pice
(5) If there was any "ism" I felt offended at, it was the classism (which is why I said he'd be ok with Oak Brook/Naperville (or if we wants to stay in NJ, maybe Basking Ridge)). Or to put an wealthy, gentrified urban spin on it (since he's now seemingly into the Manhattan/LA elite media bi-coastal lifestyle), I find it irritating that a Tawa Tandoor in Chelsea would probably be ok with him and his probably largely white social circle (and maybe a small "acceptable" number of yuppie Indians of his choosing), but God forbid if less fashionable Indians striving for the middle-class American suburban dream (and yes, whose kids may be some of those "Guindians") enjoy a few samosas at Sukhadia's under an old Pizza Hut roof.
>PS on June 30, 2010 4:11 PM · SAALT (and sometimes I agree with their positions and sometimes I don't) has issued a response
PS,
Thanks for the link. The response was short, but well thought-out. It appears this group has backbone I signed the petition and I hope others will as well. Just as today it's hip to be the Indian that tells the others that they're "overreacting", hopefully one day we'll respect the Indian-American who is assertive and stands up for the rest of us.
A simple comparison with the Jewish community. Not too long ago, a celebrity made a joke saying a bad photo of hers (which ended up showing her nose as huge), was that of a Jewish cousin, or something to that effect. Now if there were about Indians, our engineering/scientific-oriented leaders would say "What's the big deal? We do have big noses. She wasn't saying that was a bad thing. It's not racist. C'mon!". Instead, this celebrity tearfully apologized and in a heartfelt way -- in part due to collecting action from the Jewish community. The lesson learned by broader society was important. Scientific types have a hard enough time with subtext, that to put them in charge of policing something so abstract (to them) as a cumulative impact of demeaning stereotypes is a mistake. We have the wrong hands at the wheel.
And when they get to print their thoughts in Time magazine as a paid columnist, you will have a point.
brown girl @ 239
See this is the bit I don't get that comments like yours have used to justify the tone of the article. You say that if the piece is satire then it's not racist at all. It simply can't be. So the author's negative perspective is positive through that loophole. Your definition removes out the possibility that satire can be racist through the meaning and intent of the words used. Whether the satire is funny or not.
I agree with this response. We're not just being targeted as a community but as individuals too. You don't have to take action if you don't like the article. You can let others do the work for you, and that's fine as long as you support what they're doing, at least that's how I feel. But what if it's a personal situation you're in, like a real estate matter, or visa-travel or work related? Then it's an individual problem. It's yours. How do you fight your battles then? Is it whining if you take action, in other words stand up for yourself? Or are you one of the fortunate ones who generally has someone to take care of it for you, someone else to bail you out?"Anna's rant gave me a headache. That's offensive."
Would that it had hurt your fingers. If you'd like to critique writing styles, do it in good faith constructively (and preferably via email). Otherwise you're all noise, no signal.
Keep your comments productive, people. Invalidating others- not productive. Leveling ad hominem attacks- not productive. Anti-semitic conspiracy theories? Not productive AND unwelcome. Etc.
You were thinking of Halle Berry appearing on The Tonight Show. The actual joke was cut from the broadcast, but the studio audience heard it, and word got out. To her credit, Berry immediately apologized, saying that what seemed funny between close friends and associates fell flat in the context of appearing as a guest on a late night show.
Reminds me about one time Wanda Sykes appeared on Politically Incorrect, and when something related to Jews came up, she actually jumped up and said something to the effect, "I'm in show business, I'm not saying a damn thing about Jews!"
Instead, this celebrity tearfully apologized and in a heartfelt way -- in part due to collecting action from the Jewish community. The lesson learned by broader society was important.
Yeah I vaguely remember that. I'm glad you signed the petition. I don't think though that the Jewish community is solidified in their responses on issues. In fact, like the Indian community, I just had this impression that the Jewish community had an "argumentative" culture like Indian culture...meaning that there's a lot emphasis on analysis, arguments, seeing different perspectives, etc overall in their culture. I see very diverse voices that express themselves say for an issue like the Israel and Gaza and since Israelis and many countries that Jewish communities have a relatively free press, like India, those expressions do come out. There were Jewish people who were actually apologists for the holocaust and the prejudice they experienced...I just remember this from books I had read on the history of europe, etc. Anyways it's my opinion and of course not based on any polling that's been done. :)
>(4) It was a monstrously failed attempt at satire/humor, and there is zero excuse for Time Magazine not having properly edited this horribly mangled, slapped-together pice
Mihir,
Doesn't matter whether it failed or not. When a standup comedian is performing, do you really think comedians give two sh*ts whether the butt of the joke laughs? All they hope is that that person doesn't heckle him or complain to the manager. And that's exactly the idle response Stein is expecting from us - and he'll get it.
LOL- you're offended at classism. "Why is he faulting us about enjoying a few samosas in a less than posh restaurant!! Waah" Something tells me if you got muggged: beaten, had your wallet and watch stolen, and the mugger called you an as*hole as he left, you would be hung up on being called an as*hole. Talk about missing the big picture. Gosh darnit- yes we wear too much cologne, and most of the other Indians are stupid to the point of inviting poverty, and yes we don't fit in (and don't try), but gosh darnit -- we have insecurity at not being portrayed as consumers of upmarket too!
"It is not surprising to me that Abhi doesn't see the remarks as particularly offensive. He grew up in Michigan. I am familiar with the culture of Michigan/Minnesota/Wisconsin, et cetera. These are white majority states. Humor such as this is very common and may be hard to spot because it is practically ubiquitous"
While Abhi may not find this particular article offensive (which is completely his prerogative), please don't blanket the entire Midwest into a group of South Asians who will allow ignorant and racist non-South Asians to get away with shit like this. I grew up in Michigan and attend the University of Michigan, where we have an extremely active group of South Asian students who work to prevent bigotry like this. If you had any idea of the culture of Michigan, obviously you would know that South Asians don't sit back and allow racial "humor" to just happen because we live in a white majority state.
I'm going to say something a bit controversial but given the nature of this thread, I suppose that won't be a problem. I am going to engage in massive stereotyping, so brace yourself (and for those wanting to scream hypocrisy, I can explain why it isn't)
I brought up the incident of Halle Berry; that is not the best example, but it is an example. If you observe the behavior of the Jewish community, and don't be deceived- they are highly organized, what they have learned from centuries of living amongst white people is that they have to constantly set boundaries. Why? The West is aggressive and opportunistic to the same degree that the East is consensus-oriented. The notion of a soft target is far more relevant amongst white people. Its why Rumsfield would say, "Weakness is provocative". It is. To them. What the Jewish community has done is progressively set these boundaries further and further out to the point that whites understand very clearly that if they get to thinking about insulting Jews in any fashion, they will pay in one way or another (it might be being compelled to apologize, it might be losing your job, etc.) And it has worked. It hasn't worked due to magic or chance, but rather to organized action based around central principles- the most basic of which is - if you don't set boundaries with white people, expect to be demeaned, ridiculed, attacked, humilliated, and generally thought less of than if you asserted yourself and stood up. You don't stand up violently, but you do hold them to account and take action. Basic assertiveness.
Indians haven't learned this. The very same Indian nerds in school who were pushed into walls growing up and who, lacking a constructive way to deal with, simply ignored it and grew up to be scientists now often lead our community and, having not learned anything outside their field of specialty, hope to employ the same "denial" techniques against attacks at them and their community in adulthood. It won't work. It has never worked. Instead, embarrassed of their refusal to be assertive, they fall back into complacency and justifying lack of action and even to taking offense as a higher virtue of maturity. We are better off examining the practices of communities who HAVE succeeded at pushing back at prejudice, then relying on faulty instincts.
i am embarrassed to think that this was published in 'TIME'...but then maybe this is their ploy to get publicity any which way..this guy is an insipid, sad, white cockroach..we should put a red dot on him to give him some color..he wishes Edison was crime-infested with the likes of him rather than have some hard-working (oh, no!!!) Indians bring some economy back into the neighborhood...i remember Edison being run-down and creepy; perhaps during the time when the likes of Mr. Stein was shoplifting, etc...so he rather have good ole' scrawny white kids running around and being 'cute' miscreants than see a brown face...got it.
jagr721,
What you said is not controversial, it is nonsensical. The reason Berry apologized so quickly is because Jews are prominent in show-business, and that is what she works in. If Berry was saying the same joke at a gathering of hunters, the joke may still fall flat, but there would be less of a rush to apologize because there are probably fewer Jews are hunters.
As for the rest - ask the Chinese, Japanese & Koreans if they settle their matters through consensus. Sri Lanka's civil war did not end through negotiation. Asia's history is extremely violent (remember Partition?)
As for the idea that stereotyping or mocking Indians carries no penalty - Exhibit A - George Allen.
>Racial insensitivity is fair game in my mind as long as its funny. Unfortunately for Stein he isn't funny.
Yoga Fire,
I have written your letter to Stein below:
Please Suh, i couldnt help but notice your column about indians was on the mark about us looking like guidos and slapping on too much cologne. also we have made a mess of things in edison- especially how ugly and charmless place has become. sorry about that!!! but i also noticed you being a tad bit racially insensitive, if i can say that, and i apologize in advance if i have gone too far, but i don't have a problem with that per-se, just wondering if you could perhaps make the racist humor funnier, you know. not just funny but ha-ha funny. then we are square in my book. thanks in advance- yoga fire
>The reason Berry apologized so quickly is because Jews are prominent in show-business, and that is what she works in.
No, its not because the majority of people in Hollywood are Jews, but that the Jews in Hollywood would take action based on the offense, and not write it off, ignore it, or waste all day on a commenting thread. The only point I was making was that a verbal sanction is meaningless unless there is some motive force behind it.
>(remember Partition?)
No I don't since I wasn't alive. But I read about it, and about the British role behind it. I never said Asians weren't violent, genius. I said that in everyday interactions, in basic social behavior, there are different standards amongst Indians and Western white people. They are comfortable with dishing it out, taking it, and giving it right back. It requires thicker skin and more assertiveness. That's all.
>As for the idea that stereotyping or mocking Indians carries no penalty - Exhibit A - George Allen.
George Allen lost because liberal and moderate whites found the offense so blatant, they couldn't ignore it. Indians pat ourselves on the back for the Allen incident when we were merely spectators. The POINT is for all the subtler forms of prejudice that don't involve someone YELLING a slur, we can't rely on the majority population to stand up for ourselves. And Stein's column falls into that category.
I'd guess the "inappropriate roof" would be the standard Pizza Hut roof, which looks kind of odd on anything other than a Pizza Hut no matter what color you paint it. (I'm guessing here, not having seen that particular Pizza Hut in the last 20 years. But there's a converted Pizza Hut a mile from here with the standard roof and it has looked rather odd ever since the place stopped being a Pizza Hut.)
That said, his entire rant is burningly out of touch. I grew up down the road in Piscataway and also graduated in 1989 so I know a bit about how it was back then. So it was hardly shocking to hear that Edison now has a large Indian population with *gasp* shops to cater to the "new" demographic. You see, Piscataway, just down the road, has had a significant Indian population since at least the 1970s. On the other side of Edison, Iselin has had a large number of Indian-oriented shops since at least the late 1980s. (I can't speak to the demographics; the stores were little more than interesting scenery on the way to Woodbridge Mall.)
So either Mr. Stein really is as stupid as he appears or he's "just" terribly blind to the world around him.
Wow. Well I live in a part of Michigan that has a ton of Indians for most of my life and don't understand what the big deal is. This kind of shit happens all the time. Sometimes people like to say that "Ram doesn't exist", sometimes people make movies about stoners, sometimes people make ridiculous movies about Kali Ma, and sometimes they do stuff like this.
I just don't understand why a rant like this was even necessary. It almost seems disingeuous.
I mean the guy was making of Hindu Gods and Guindians and Anna jumps up and gets offended. Really? I find that difficult to believe even if it is typed in caps lock.
Joel Stein has written controversial pieces before. That's what he does. New Jersey was part of the joke and he even makes references to himself stealing. How is that cover? He clearly did not mean this as a bigoted piece of writing.
jagr721,
Right, that is why lines and traffic are so orderly in India, while in the U.S. line-cutting is the norm and no one bothers to observe red lights.
If you want to argue that Indians should be less accommodating to having their culture lampooned, then make that argument. Don't put forth some phoney-baloney sociological explanation for why it is so. If you want to go that route, look up books that reference the Hindu rate of growth,
There was nothing blatant about it, since no one knew what a macaca was. He lost because Indian-American groups would not let the issue just go away. Allen had no history of saying anything critical of Indians, yet that lack of bad blood did not inhibit IA's from giving him hell.
It was funny. Although, not quite as funny as when Russell Peters openly makes fun of Chinese people by taaalking rike dis though.
An incomplete taxonomy of Western satire:
Great satire: Sinclair Lewis, Evelyn Waugh, Tom Sharpe, PG Wodehouse
OK satire: Dave Barry
Stein's piece's satirical merit does not even put it on the board. Its failure goes beyond the ending of clauses with prepositions (seriously, how can someone write some of those sentences and not cringe?). While reading the article, I wasn't particularly offended––even if the author is put off by the slack-and-teva combo that he sees in Edison, he'll let Raj, who, just like him, wears deodorant and drinks Smirnoff Ice, attend poker night, right? The self deprecation was a nice gesture, but not enough to make up for the author's ability to find humor in his classmate terrorizing middle-aged women and children (were pogroms that funny? His Judaism serves as nice collateral, but making fun of Jews is so tired!). What rankles me the most is that this person is paid handsomely to write this sort of sloppy, insincere drivel. I had no clue who he was until this giant uproar.
The cultural jibes are unremarkable. Remarks about "spicy food" do not register with me as far as humor or offense are concerned.
Also, in the end, satire should be used for the greater good, not to whine about there being no "there there". Indians (for example, the whisky-drinking sophisticate who still holds onto caste prejudice) are, in reality, great fodder for satirization by someone knowledgeable and sincere. What is the goal Stein is arguing for? "End Indian immigration to Edison?" He doesn't do it too well.
Back it up, Elroy. If you're going to call me out for being disingenuous, have the decency to describe why.
Disingenuous is one of my favorite words, so I don't take your leveling of it lightly. It means "Not noble", "dishonorable", "undignified", "unworthy", "artificial" and "deceptive", among other things. So do explain exactly how I or my post are any or all of those things, when you don't even know me.
Yes, really. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that the co-founder of a site-- whose very creation was inspired by stories of discrimination-- would find this offensive?
> Don't put forth some phoney-baloney sociological explanation for why it is so. If you want to go that route, look up books that reference the Hindu rate of growth,
There is a sociological explanation for it. Are you that stupid to assume all cultures are the same? Don't answer that (read Sowell's take on cultural capital instead) The behavior that may have worked in India will not work in America. New society, new rules.
>There was nothing blatant about it, since no one knew what a macaca was. He lost because Indian-American groups would not let the issue just go away. Allen had no history of saying anything critical of Indians, yet that lack of bad blood did not inhibit IA's from giving him hell.
No one knew what a macaca was?! I am laughing so much, I am composing myself here to try to type this. Allen really used some stealthy, dog-whistle racially coded language there! Very subtle indeed! LOL. I follow politics and about a hundred Dem blogs talked about this right after it happened - needing no provocation by Ind-Am groups. Again, for blatantly idiotic and obvious racial slurs -- the majority doesn't need any organized action to spring into action. They are attuned to overt racism and squash it like a bug. That is PRECISELY why racism and bigotry have become less obvious and masked in more subtle forms of hostility...that is...more like Joel Stein's.
That paragraph about the not-so-bright people almost had me really heated up. Then I remembered having been to the garden state once, and realized that the number of geniuses of ANY race who would willingly relocate to New Jersey must be vanishingly small.
This was a stupid attempt at humor by Joel Stein.
But I just wish the same anger being shown here in the comments, the South Asian community would have at the south asian honor killings in Toronto, or the young South Asian men in Vancouver behind the gay hate crimes giving the whole community a bad name, the over 10 000 plus young women in India who married desi men in the west only to have the men use them to get money for a dowry and then divorce them and ruining the lives of many young girls.
Heck Faisal Shahzad did not get as many angry comments on this website a couple of months ago, then Joel Stein is getting right now.
What does Shahzad have to do with the price of gold in Denmark, or the writing ability of a well-paid columnist for Time?
"1) There was no "humor" tag on this post. It wasn't an "attempt" at anything. Joel Stein was the one who made the "attempt at humor", not me."
sorry, i automatically assumed that this was an attempt at a response in the same vein as the TIME article - feeble humour. but you're right, there was no "humor" tag, and this guy really needs to be taken seriously and responded to in all seriousness.
oh, and Russell Peters is booooooorrrrriiinnnnng. had to get that off my chest.
>That paragraph about the not-so-bright people almost had me really heated up. Then I remembered having been to the garden state once, and realized that the number of geniuses of ANY race who would willingly relocate to New Jersey must be vanishingly small.
Rakesh,
I understand where you're coming from and your joke was actually reasonably funny. But I think we should resist the temptation to try to laugh along with Stein when as the butt of the joke, we are being laughed at.
You fail to show that Indian have not adopted to their new society. Indeed, Indians in the U.S. seem to quickly discard old world notions of who can eat off of which plates, who is the proper person to clean the bathroom, quickly abandon culinary and alcohol restrictions. The only reason you have not seen Indians react more forcefully to Stein-like idiocies is because they are rare, and usually limited to a dimwit politician, lonely blogger, or a guy who shares his thoughts on a bathroom wall. Stein is eliciting this reaction because it is Time magazine, not High Times.
That's right. Look back - the first couple of days was spent simply trying to figure out what the word meant. In the rich vocabulary of racial slurs, macaca is not an American word. It is an import from French North Africa, courtesy of Allen's mother's side of the family. If Allen said the less common kaffir or schwartze, he would have been quickly called about because there are still enough people in the U.S. who know those words.
Isn't it usually college newspapers where some closeted racist asshole decides to vent everything under the guise of "it was satire - CAN'T YOU GUYS TAKE A JOKE!?!" I gave up reading Time some time ago and this just validates my decision.
Great smackdown and it was not too long, too impassioned or anything but just right.
KXB - we are off on a tangent, taking the unscenic route to oblivion. I've debated these side-issues to my satisfaction, and I think you have as well. As I said, we Ind-Am's have a wonderful knack for getting sidetracked.
Agreed.
And with this Abhi and I have been lumped into the same side of an argument.
We've gone through the looking glass here people.
I don't think Stein is a racist so much as he's an unfunny hack.
What he's trying to do, as evidenced by the "I understand how people in Arizona feel" is trying to empathize with teabaggers. What Stein's column shows, since I doubt he's ever had an original thought in his life, is how everybody in the media feels compelled somehow to "understand" the new racism. Stein assumes that teabaggism is "normal" for America. So he sucks up to it.
In some ways this makes it worse. If only the hardcore racists are writing columns like this, then American is probably still a more or less tolerant place. But when unoriginal hacks like Stein feel somehow compelled to prove how "normal" they are by race baiting, that means that the cancer has metasticized pretty far.
I know this is a bit off the subject, but I was born in Arizona 60 years ago. So a few facts are in order. Arizona did not become a state until 1912. Prior to that, Arizona, like major swaths of the US, including Texas, New Mexico, California belonged to Mexico. Needless to say, previously to that Mexico and the entire US and Canada belonged to aboriginal peoples. About 25% of the land area in Arizona is reservation land.We white people are the interlopers of the entire country. For all of my childhood, I grew up in parallel with the Mexican culture, eating tacos, enjoying all of it. Many Mexican-American persons in Arizona at the time of statehood held property, elected office, judgeships, etc. Some of their descendants attended school with me. Most of the white people in Arizona are transplants, very few of us were born in the state. For Joel to say that he knows how the people of Arizona feel is a hugely grotesque statement about the entitlement of white interlopers, and I weep for my country and my former home state that it has come to this.
>is trying to empathize with teabaggers
He's an edgy Jewish liberal writing for Time. The last thing he'd want to be found guilty of doing is empathizing with teabaggers.
> that means that the cancer has metasticized pretty far
As you likely know, hardcore racists aren't the problem. They were in the past, today they are largely confined to whining about how a mexican gardener didn't defer to them sufficiently on Stormfront. Yes, they act occasionally and sometimes brutally but they are background noise to the dominant form of bigotry today which is largely camoflauged as something else such as "satire" leading with "I'm going to be politically incorrect here and say...".
#121: FACT 1: This article was not racist.
Hmmm.... I suppose people are entitled to their opinion about what the word 'fact' means. :-)
>I don't really mind being laughed at by morons. Being morons, their opinions don't carry much weight with me. Why are you letting them get to you?
Stein isn't a moron. He's a lot of things but he's not unintelligent. Some people label others a 'moron' the minute they disagree with something they have to say. I've always found that to be a cop-out.
I am letting them get to me? I have enough social awareness to know that unchallenged racial stereotypes, however untrue, in the mainstream press will redound to our disadvantage, and that's why we ought to confront them. I am in the wrong for doing so? Its not good enough for to say to myself "he's a moron" and leave it at that when 4M other people are exposed to Stein's writings, perhaps more with the Internet. The costs of inaction are relatively high even though dismissing it eases your conscience. For instance, when are you and a bunch of your smelly Indian friends going to stink up another joint besides Edison? You already ruined that town with your graceless sweet shops and non-English language movies- depriving the town of whatever "authentic American" culture it once possessed.
Sound strange to your ear? These attitudes can become prevalent. Don't kid yourself and think that refusing to take offense to Stein's column will somehow prevent as much.
That's what gets me, how unaware of recent history one has to be in this case, a person who appears "Mexican" in Arizona may have family in the area from before the area was even a part of the country, and some dude who got to Arizona yesterday is going to consider if he thinks he's got reasonable cause to ask for his documents? And if homeboy is out on a jog and didn't bring his wallet he's SOL? Is this a wrong reading as to what could result?
That's what gets me, how unaware of recent history one has to be in this case, a person who appears "Mexican" in Arizona may have family in the area from before the area was even a part of the country, and some dude who got to Arizona yesterday is going to consider if he thinks he's got reasonable cause to ask for his documents?
you're confusing arizona, which doesn't/didn't have a large community of pre-mexican american war population of hispanics, which new mexico, which did/does. sorry for being a tool about that, but when criticizing people for being ignorant let's get the details right.
If he thinks that Edison was run better by white people (back in the day) than by brown people - then yes, I think this hack qualifies as racist. Anna is this was reddit, you would be upvoted.
If you replaced Indians with another group I'm sure more people would be concerned about it.
He peaked on best week ever.
In this case meaning the law in Arizona.
FWIW, I'm from central Jersey. I graduated from Rutgers in the 1980s. And I know Edison quite well.
What strikes me about Edison is how LITTLE its changed from the 1980s. It's a suburban housing tract bordered by Route 1 and the Turnpike. It's always been charmless. The shops look almost exactly the same as they did back then. The Indians just took over the already existing strip malls and changed the lettering a bit.
The only thing that's really changed is that they've closed the Ford assembly plant. Had it not been for the Indians moving into town, the property values would have simply collapsed. They pretty much saved Edison.
Yes new Mexico much more so, but the assumption is its also literally possible in Arizona. I'm willing to be corrected if there is no one in Arizona for whom the above could be true. If that's the case let me know, it would be something I did not know
A simple FAQ on Joel Stein's "My Own Private India"
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1999416,00.html
Q: Is Joel Stein a racist?
A: No, he is a bigot. Let's use the colloquial understanding (rather than stale dictionary definition) of both terms to explain. Colloquially, we consider someone a racist when they harbor ill will towards people of color. They hold views of their own racial superiority. Instead, we may call someone a bigot when they demonstrate uninformed, ignorant opinions, often stereotyped in nature, of other races. They may be fine people otherwise, generally holding "charitable" view towards minorities, often trumpeting their liberal credentials. Nonetheless, they are not above demeaning racial stereotypes. Joel Stein fits into this category.
Q: Was "My Own Private India" funny?
A: Measuring something intangible and subjective like humor is for the most part, fruitless. Oh sure you could say that Chris Rock tends to be funnier than Sinbad or Dane Cook. But is there any point of debating whether or not Sinbad is funny? The good thing in this case is that whether or not Stein was funny is besides the point. We can discuss the merits of the stereotypes he used, independent of whether or not the content was humorous, well written, intelligent, etc.
Q: Why was Stein's commentary bigoted or offensive?
A: Criticism centers around his assertion that later Indian immigrants are more representative of all Indians as a people. He characterized them as stupid and perhaps their backwards nature explains why India is impoverished. Most would disagree that India's poverty stems from the inherent stupidity of its people; some would trace it to colonialism and other factors.
Q: There was NOTHING bigoted or offensive about Stein's piece.
A: Denial is not argumentation. If you weren't offended by certain speech, that doesn't mean the piece isn't offensive or bigoted. For example, you may simply be tone-deaf or conflict averse. Or you may be a math whiz who has the emotional intelligence of a lemur. People have described why Stein's comments about Indian lack of intelligence leading to poverty are bigoted. They have explained how it is a demeaning stereotype based on an untruth and a simplistic generalization. If you disagree, as an adult would tell a child, use your words and explain why so. Telling people to "move on", "grow up", "stop being sensitive", "stop making mountains over mole hills" are all intellectually challenged attempts to avoid debate.
unless they actually call us a macacca - and at that point, we hardly need any rallying.
Actually, according to the stated definition of 'Racism' referring to someone as 'Macaca' (or more accurately 'pretending to think someone's name is macaca') is not precisely ascribing racial superiority or inferiority to anyone. So, I guess it must not be racism.
Heck, I am sure it even counts as thigh-slapping humour among some old boys - which long familiarity with said old boys is necessary to appreciate.
Maybe it was just that it was said by a Republican - and not a certified Time humorist - that spared all the outrage from being a 'whiny rant'.
(Better stop before the 'comments policy' comes into force ;-))
OK, I don't feel this needs to be justified, but as of the 2000 census 27.9% of Arizona population was Hispanic, with 64.3% of these native-born citizens. Add to the bucket tons of the brown skinned native people, who will be treated the same way. Don't forget, shortly after 9/11 a Sikh gas station owner was murdered for being one of those "ragheads." The racists don't really care about any of the details, brown skin is enough.
ANNA -
I find it somewhat disingenuous because it seems like faux outrage over something that doesn't even matter. Maybe its the proportion that confuses me the most.
Indians and Hindus are made fun of in many, many ways, but no one (and rightfully so) lifts a finger for it and now, a guy, who clearly is not a racist makes a funny (yes, I said it) article about how Indians saved Edison from becoming a ghost town and you have to write a giant rant about it?
1) He is self-deprecating. I don't see this as a cover for anything. If you read his other articles, he is consistently so. He refers himself as stealing from stores previously but people not doing so from Indian stores. Why is that a bad thing?
2) "In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants brought their even-less-bright cousins, and we started to understand why India is so damn poor."
Yeah, okay - its not exactly nice. But its a joke - can you take one? Why the hell are people bringing up post-colonialwhogivesashit when he's clearly making a joke about the reality that India is poor.
3) I'm not sure what kind PC utopia you live in, but people do use derogatory terms to refer to other races quite a bit. Like he said, Dothead really isn't that bad. And he insulted the school system and called the kids stupid. I don't see where the outrage is coming from?
This kind of reaction is reminiscent of all the Muslims who get offended over everything and can't take a joke. I mean is anybody really offended by this? Don't people like Arundhati Roy and Aravind Adiga say the same things about cows and people shitting in the streets, and people mindlessly worshiping idols, blah blah blah...
Like I said... its disproportionate faux outrage. It's not racism.
@286:
Actually I find that mocking ignorance works better than whining about being disrespected. If you have to go around begging for respect you sure as hell aren't going to get it. At best you're going to have people walking on egg-shells to spare your delicate feelings, but that's not what respect looks like.
866 550 6934
I just called Time Magazine and told them what I think, maybe we all should.
This kind of reaction is reminiscent of all the Muslims who get offended over everything and can't take a joke.
Let's make a deal then.
If Helen Thomas gets her job back, I'll stop being offended by Stein. Didn't they pretty much say the same thing?
"Yeah, okay - its not exactly nice. But its a joke - can you take one?"
Why in the hell are you saying it for him Keshav? It's. Not. A. Goddam. Joke. Is not a joke. Should not get a pass as a joke. And parsing the difference between "bigoted" and "racist" is ridiculous. Here's a guy with white privilege shitting on the town because it's not the lily white paradise he pretends to remember (if satirically) growing up. He's not joking. He's taking a crap on the town and its current (ethnically and racially diverse) population and hiding under the mantle of "it's just satire, folks!" And the comparison to Arizona just drove that home. Pretending that it's all about the spicy food (which none of us white folk want to smell OR eat, doncha know!) is part of the game.
Please don't let him get away with it.
If Helen Thomas gets her job back, I'll stop being offended by Stein. Didn't they pretty much say the same thing?
No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not even close.
>Actually I find that mocking ignorance works better than whining about being disrespected. If you have to go around begging for respect you sure as hell aren't going to get it. At best you're going to have people walking on egg-shells to spare your delicate feelings, but that's not what respect looks like.
LOL. Setting people straight and calling them on their BS is far from whining but if it makes you puff your little chest up on the Net by saying so, go right ahead. You want to mock ignorance? Go ahead, don't let us stop you. Thus far all I see from you is weak-kneed rationalization of Stein's piece and the occasionally sad whispered response of "not funny". You have to demonstrate some comedic talent before anyone will take your "unfunny" critique of Stein seriously. Pitifully protesting that Indians "aren't being singled out" as you did earlier is far from "mocking ignorance", it is more like demonstrating ignorance. Nor will it earn you the "respect" you seem to obsess about.
Now to be fair I don't think you are adding any light to the debate. Your weasely half-protestations are an irrelevancy to the debate as a whole. Say what you wish, it's really not worth anyone's time. Go ahead, have the last word; I can't be bothered with it.
The thinly veiled Uncle Tom accusations levied against anyone who disagrees with your assertions that this is some kind of oppression are old and likewise not persuading anyone whose not already in your little choir.
>He's taking a crap on the town and its current (ethnically and racially diverse) population and hiding under the mantle of "it's just satire, folks!"
MarinDenver,
Well said. The only part of your post I disagree with is the difference between racism and bigotry. I realize some here are splitting hairs and using academic definitions or race-related terms to obscure the debate. But as a practical matter, I think we will have more impact with our criticism of Stein if we describe his behavior as bigotry than as racism. Racism, for better or worse, has come to be used in more extreme incidents (incidents however disparate in nature from housing discrimination to dropping the N bomb).
I think as this debate on Sepia has illustrated, the Joel Stein's of the world are only part of the problem. Just as significant an impediment in our ability to defend ourselves are narrow-minded Indian sell-outs who simply can't handle a situation like this in an effective manner. About the only time you see any passion from them in defending anything is when out them about their cowardice, and then they instantly spring into false machismo mode. We have a long way to go as a community, but the Stein column was a useful wake-up call for us to make determinations as a group such as which voices to heed, and which to tune out; which are reliable advocates of our community, and which either lack the intellect or the general makeup to respond effectively in this situation.
>Shorav Kaushik on June 30, 2010 8:59 PM · Direct link
>866 550 6934
>I just called Time Magazine and told them what I think, maybe we all should.
Care to share what was said? Glad to see this.
I don't see why not. H
elen Thomas said that if the Israelis can't stop dropping white phospherous on Palestinians, they should to back to Germany and Poland.
Stein implied that if Indians can't stop building "inappropriate roofs" they should go back to the Punjab.
Okay, everyone.
In the one hour that I was away from my computer, some of you apparently decided to leave anti-Semitic comments and another blogger was forced to close down my thread.
Please don't do that. No matter what Joel Stein is or did, he doesn't speak for an entire people (and neither do I, for that matter).
Do not debase yourselves by emulating his ugliness. I'm reopening this thread but I'll kill it if it goes down that road, again. So, no more discussing Israel or what the "Jews do" or whether they run Hollywood. That's not what this is about. Some of you had just started collaborating and sharing resources. Others were having fascinating meta-debates. I'd like for those good things to continue; I'm trusting you on this. I've been bragging about all of you and what I hope is a new era of civility on this site-- please don't let me down, Mutineers. :)
Someone PLEASE make a copy of the original article under discussion somewhere else so we don't keep bumping up Mr. Stein's numbers while we converse and reference it.
Please publish the new link in a prominent place at the top of any page that discusses the article like this one.
Thanks
I was on the road, so I'm late to this comment party. Briefly: thanks, A N N A. "BURN! Like a VINDALOO!" is my favorite line. ;) As to the rest... talking about Joel Stein's intent *beyond what he actually wrote down* strikes me as merely speculative; he had a chance to say what he wants to say, and this is it. Holding him to account for it isn't unreasonable. IMO, the piece is badly written. It's neither smart not clear. Perhaps it was Melvin who said this before, but it isn't funny enough to be good satire, and if it isn't satire, it's just terrible.
>So, no more discussing Israel or what the "Jews do" or whether they run Hollywood. That's not what this is about.
I have to agree that sinking to Stein's level would be counter-productive.
For the sake of discussion, I see Stein as a white person of Jewish faith. And where his comments are concerned neither particularly matter though as someone who is non-Indian he saw fit to traffic in degrading stereotypes about us as a race (apparently with impunity) and as a non-Hindu saw fit to mock Hindu deities as ridiculous. I sometimes have to wonder how someone can sit at his computer and write something like this and it not strike him as an errant, mistaken thing to do. It disturbs me to think me to think that Stein was cracking himself up all the while he wrote this, as was whoever else he shared it with before Time decided to run it. If that's what these people are thinking, I can only imagine what they are thinking when they meet one of us. If you think these guys smell, and most of them (except the geniuses) are fairly stupid, and ascribe non-human traits as if we are "infesting" American towns -- do you think they look at us as equals? In many ways its the mentality required to write something like this, the mentality required for whoever at time edited this and greenlighted it, as well as those who read it and laugh that is most worrisome.
"these people..." You racist.
I agree with Abhi. I don't think the Stein piece is malicious or racist. Sure, he's not the best at writing sarcasm but we should be criticizing his writing skills then, no? After the first time I read the article I was offended. I think I was just confused and not excited about TIME being a platform for satire. Had I seen this article in the Onion I would have been expecting this essay and laughed at parts. A friend who did not find the piece offensive led me to read it again and re-visit my initial response.
Maybe this article isn't that funny, but that's just because Stein over does the humor part. This flaw in style cannot be equated to racism.
Indeed, Stein, by showcasing himself as such as a bigot and then empathizing with conservative AZ sentiments is highlighting just how stupid SB 1070 is. This is an ingenious approach which unfortunately Stein is unable to translate super well into an effective satirical writing style. By taking it to such an extreme, Stein is making fun of people who actually think the things said in the essay.
The mix of the facts that 1) TIME is not a humor publication and 2) Stein isn't that good at writing sarcasm should not be conflated with racism.
And for those people pointing out that Stein himself is the descendant of immigrants and is Jewish making it so ironic and uncool that he is being hateful. Um, it also works the other way. The irony of Stein's positionality is exactly what is being banked on in this attempt at sarcasm.
Let's channel all of this energy into combating actual racism and not poor writing skills.
also, if you are offended, make a respectable fuss about it. I don't care for responses like curry bear's that arbitrarily employ Gandhian non-violence and dissuade the community from taking a strong stance against media portrayals they might find derisive (as cb does). Responses like cb's perpetuate the very problematic model minority construct that Asians are docile, submissive, and effeminate aka the best kind of minority!
Its a pity that Time had to use such lame article for publicity and viewership. Best response to this would be for all of us to start a "unsubscribe to Time" movement.
To Whom It May Concern,
This article is tasteless, tactless, it is not satire, or remotely funny. On top of that, it lacks the criteria for journalism as it has an obvious bias that occasionally borders on prejudice--And for a people who come from the most ancient culture known to this world. How this piece of shit article got past the editor at TIME MAGAZINE, i'll never know. Good thing the only magazine I pay to subscribe to is THE NEW YORKER. Because they don't publish chaff at the New Yorker. This Time article is nothing but chaff.
Fuck you, Joel Stein.
If we met I'd kick you in the head and follow it up with a kick into your other head that has missing skin.
You understand?
Why is this article even called "My Own Private India?" It's an obvious reference to Gus Van Sant's 1991 film with some LGBT themes. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102494/
From the start the article name itself is an EPIC FAIL.
Joel you're not being apropos to the title, you're not clever, or even remotely funny. It's obvious you were trying too hard or trying to meet a deadline or something and instead of an appropriate article you wrote what you did. Let's be clear: Joel Stein's article is not journalism, it is thinly veiled bigotry. If these are the vibes you want to put out there, it's your own karma you're damning, Joel.
The Hindu culture that you've categorized in such a crass manner dates back further than your own culture, Joel.
It'd serve you well to be mindful of that.
I suggest you write another article recanting your statements, because whatever angle you were 'going for' as a writer or journalist(?), you missed it by by a mile.
Must read Kuzhali Manickavel's awesome plan to make Joel Stein feel better: http://thirdworldghettovampire.blogspot.com/2010/06/bring-injuns-home.html
Now that's funny!
"... you'll see that, while the population seems at least half Indian, a lot of them look like the Italian Guidos I grew up with in the 1980s: gold chains, gelled hair, unbuttoned shirts."
I knew that David Davidar thing was going to come back & haunt us :-)
LOL. That's hilarious. The comments are really good, too. Especially the one about returning injuns and their gated communities.
I will have to get her book -- had never heard of her before!
Well, there are three hundred comments on this already, so adding another comment is probably pointless, but I'm doing it anyway.
Person I've Never Heard Of Before, I don't think you understand Joel Stein's column. Maybe it's just because I'm a white guy who has read dozens of Joel Stein columns and occasionally been almost amused by them, but I think I have a good feel for his style.
First of all, the title isn't a reference to the B-52s song. It's a reference to the movie My Own Private Idaho, whose title is a reference to the B-52s song. Of course, this is as irrelevant as my comment, but I like telling people when they're wrong.
You're absolutely correct, however, to think it would be outrageous for Time Magazine to publish what you think you read. They would never publish something like what you've described here. Media institutions like this are deathly afraid of being perceived as overtly racist so they're very careful to avoid printing something they think might cause a reaction such as yours.
That said, it's definitely more accepted to print disparaging remarks about Indians than about Jews. However, this isn't a problem specific to this column, so I think your anger in this regard is misdirected. Stein is just following the acceptable standards of mainstream white America, just like everyone who works for Time Magazine.
On that subject, you're terribly wrong to think that anyone at Time Magazine would ever try to be edgy. They're almost as dull as Jay Leno, and they're proud of it.
That part where you think he's insulting Hinduism.... He's insulting racists. He's not saying he has these attitudes, just that stupid teenagers do.
It's obvious to me that his nostalgia is not for a home without Indians because of the Indians; it's because everyone has this nostalgia. The fact that there weren't Indians during the "good old days" (which occur for most people at around age 12) might make a racist assume that the Indianlessness (I just made up a word!) is the reason for the nostalgia, but he's saying that this is not true in his case. I think his biggest misstep was being too vague, so that it's not clear to everyone that when he discusses racism, he's talking about other peoples' and not his own.
A Pizza Hut roof is only appropriate for a Pizza Hut. See also: http://www.theonion.com/articles/you-can-tell-area-bank-used-to-be-a-pizza-hut,8899/
Now, you claim that the real reason you're so angry is that he tried to be funny and failed. That's.... Why did you write that? That's just bizarre. Actually, there's a note above the comment box that says to avoid a lot of things... "Unless they're funny. It's all good then." Assuming your attitude is the same as whoever wrote that, this suggests that you would be okay with thinking Time Magazine is run by racists as long as they met your personal definition of "funny". Yeah... that's bizarre.
Final thought: Rachel Kipp doesn't know anything about satire.
Sports, mainly by the advanced sports equipment.
Do you have enough good equipment? Of the world's most famous brands. Only two brands, jordans Nike.
If you want to have these two brands of equipment, and want to use the lowest price to buy,
Then I suggest you go to: http://www.etosneakers.com
More and more fashionable style. More favorable, the more you want.
>"these people..." You racist.
Your comment was: stupid, boring, unnecessary, diversionary, but thankfully brief.
I am an Indian and a regular reader of Stein’s columns in Time. I get a chuckle or two out of every article he writes, but this one fell flat. It was not funny or clever in the least. I’m not insulted, I know Stein was trying to elicit some chuckles. Even the best hitter in baseball strikes out once in a while. Stein’s humor is usually at the expense of some person or group, several times he has written no-so-complimentary things about his wife Cassandra, and as far as I know, he is still married to her. I’ll continue to read his column and will not join in a condemnation of him.
Kuzhali Manickavel is a writer on The New Indian Express. she blogs at
http://thirdworldghettovampire.blogspot.com
Anna,
Thank you for posting this. I appreciate your willingness to share with an unknown population your raw feelings regarding what was printed in TIME magazine. I'm unbelievably offended at the readers that have told you to "calm down" before posting- the point of writing is to express emotion, not for readers to try to control the writer. I hope to continue to read more from you, a writer I respect and admire, in the future.
As for the commenters who do not find Stein's piece offensive: that is your opinion and is based on how you read the piece and your own life experiences. It is not for you to discredit the emotions of the writer in their reading of the piece. Saying "how did you not understand that it was satire" is elitist and shuts down the opportunity to actually engage people with different perspectives. Perhaps it is the anonymity of the internet that has contributed to a culture that is just plain mean against a group of people who risk quite a bit by posting their opinions and emotions.
I'm just saying, the bloggers here are not your verbal punching bags. I'm making a plea to actually engage in conversation here, not to automatically discredit a person's feelings just because you don't agree with them.
In SM Solidarity,
Viraj
i think the point of writing should be to communicate, hopefully with the reader. there are so many other satisfying ways to have a hissy fit. sorry anna, no offense, and i am not invalidating your personal response to the article.
the original post, the other supporting posts, are all way over the top and giving joel stein's article far more importance than it deserves. he attempted some kind of a satire and didn't quite pull it off. we cannot have his head on a thali for that.
http://www.petitiononline.com/UNI74815/petition.html
Seems that some Desis are scared to speak out about race because they are afraid to be lumped in with those pesky Blacks and Latinos.
FYI, less than a week ago, on June 25th:
Horrific Attack on Indian Family in New Jersey
http://justicefordivyendufamily.wordpress.com/
Teens Charged in N.J. Man's Beating Death
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/new_jersey/teens-charged-in-nj-mans-beating-death-20100629-akd
I can't help but think that columns like Joel Stein's which other and dehumanize Indians make it that much easier to murder us, and that much easier for people to brush it under the rug.
I wrote a polite angergram to Time and I signed that SAALT petition. If anyone thinks writing letters to the media contacts of the companies who advertised in this week's print edition is worth it, let me know.
why does his being jewish have anything to do with this discussion? unbelievable. so the guy missed the mark, most likely he has close-minded views. but his ethnic background has no relevance. as others have mentioned, his views are espoused by some desis themselves who fancy themselves as part of the "previous generation of immigrants" (supposedly more refined and educated than the recent immigrants).
Dear Anna,
For any country created by immigrants, prejudice against immigrants is understandable, because it is in the nature of people to be prejudiced against the unknown/misunderstood. The fear of the other is one of the great forces that historically kept communities together, and fuelled the great engines of civilisation. Social cohesiveness and community spirit be damned, it's sobering to know that it was good old bigotry was what created the edifice of our societies. Syncretism is all very fine, but there is a reason that the mughal subjects reverted to islam, and did not stay on with din-i-llahi, after Monsieur Akbar kicked the bucket.
The purpose of all social identification is to ensure that the feeling of superiority and distinction is fostered, so as to ensure that people adhere to, and stay exclusively loyal to the doctrine that proclaims their superiority.
Prejudice is the oldest civilisational sport, and joel is just a new and young player.
Your criticism is ruthless, though. My sympathies, now, lie with Joel. He is an aiyyo-paavam, torn a new asshole and hit by he-knows-not-what.
did you see his reply tweet? With the artless Gandhi reference?
Muahahahaha. some children never learn! Sigh.
People, people. It is ok to talk about stereotypes. Even funny. But for someone who is outside of the community as loosely defined as it is (it is mostly defined by the insults we get; the broader the insult the more groups get insulted and band together) to toss them around so freely by someone who does not identify with the group will surely piss someone off. This column in Time is supposed to help understand immigration issues better (tell me if I am wrong). I think it only muddled them. He was ineffectual at best in this regard and at worst, he portrayed himself as a bigot. Would a non-Jew be able to get away with a similar essay about the Jewish immigrants in his town ? Or substitute with African American, etc.
I think not. Period.
Several of the paragraphs in his piece were ok actually by me. I didn't say funny. But as free speech goes he is entitled to his opinion and making fun of others is human. But to use these stereotypes as he did in a column on immigration ! You might as well get Howard Stern to write a column for a feminist magazine.
On second thought maybe that is a bad example; I think Howard S. would do a better job.
The flippancy of the dot-head reference seeing that racist violence occurred in NJ around the time Stein was in Edison cannot be ignored.
The June 25 death of Dr. Divyendu Sinha of Old Bridge, NJ, though not proven to be racially motivated, has people coming forward about
the bigotry and racism in the neighborhood:
"Kiran Desai runs the zoning board in town. He ran a public meeting as well, earlier this week. About 200 people showed up and some told stories of being verbally and physically abused because of their race, mostly by teens. "
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7532494
Stein does not clearly mention that he is against the dot-buster gangs of his time (yes I know that might break the satirical flow). He should have; you cannot depend on people to do research to find out your views on every single odd-looking reference in your essay. If you have a fan base they would understand 'cause they know he is cool. But I hope bona-fide journals do not become the platform for Borat swinging like Stein.
By using a tone that echoes that of a bona-fide racist dot-buster of his era, even if upon closer inspection the references cleverly are made to avoid direct racism, is absolutely beyond insensitive and definitely puts him in the orbit of bigot. (This Borat-style always in-character schtik is in my view only an excuse for closet bigots to flex their muscles and it is hard to "prove" they are doing otherwise. Even if they display better behavior elsewhere in their career and life.)
Happy Mr Stein ? Actually I am not so concerned about your happiness. I care more about *all* the young kids and families in NJ and anywhere and the bullshit bigotry they have to put up with.
cm wrote:
"why does his being jewish have anything to do with this discussion? "
I assume Stein doesn't identify with Indians. If a person of Indian descent, even if they no longer identify with Indians (and I meet many who fit this shirt), wrote a similar essay they would be criticized in a somewhat different way. The Us and Them lines would be drawn differently. Stein identifies as white, so the Us and Them wedge has a different sharper shape. Is that what we need in this immigration discourse ?
All hatred is a form of self-hatred. Still working on the Daily Affirmations myself :)
hey hey....No. 314 - Sunjay.... you are borderline racist and sounding violent... gotta call it out.... isn't that what we are trying to reduce and get past in our society ?
Just FYI, I am Hindu and skinless.... born in a Christian hospital in India.
Not holding a grudge, but...do want it back.
... This self-hating gargyole who [only] wished his ancestors were connected with the Mayflower. Need to APOLOGIZE to those whom he deliberately offended! If not, he'll probably want to write a book published by Times. I say, get rid of this malodorous thing. Prosit!
Anon -
I get that the fact he is "non-Indian" adds context to deciphering why he wrote this piece. However, I simply don't get the Jewish angle and most especially the blatant and disturbing comments picking on his jewish identity. i get anna's comments - i.e. "how would you feel if someone said this about jews", but other replies, not so much. i've been a reader of this site for several years and the amount of hate i've noticed against jews recently is really turning me off.
and i must add that i am somewhat disappointed that the intern did not nip this in the bud - #314 was the last straw for me. why it was relevant for sunjay to bring up stein's supposed circumcised penis is beyond me and distracts from real discussion (as the blogger(s) intended).
Hey, Chaitan, this is confusing because it's a key. Whites stealing from white establishments is because they are learning the system, and the employees and owners/managers cooperate with the stealing in complex ways (not always directly or consciously, of course)--but if a black/brown/or other non-white tries it they are sent to prison for many years (and put in solitary confinement for YEARS if they don't like it--nowhere else in the world is this done on a routine basis).
So, white kids can't "learn stealing"--that is, be accepted into the dishonest, wickedly unjust, and inherently racist criminal "system"--from brown/black establishments because they won't be sheltered by their white privilege. They might, of course, successfully steal something, but that would be an irrelevant accident!
In my view, this is the key to the nature of the racism that Stein promotes and celebrates in this piece (of sh--) that Time publishes because they represent (now, if not always in the past) white supremacy in the most direct and instrumental way--by publishing whatever strengthens racism, even by the gross and simple minded tactic of shouting dirty names and calling it funny, which is Stein's MO. I was prompted to look as 3/4 of his pieces, and found them all to be of the same nature (sh--), whatever the subject.
Put this in context--a world where many (far from all) youth are schooled to be able to (barely) read Time, but not to question it, or any other commercial media, and you have the birth of fascism--but this time with really big bombs.
And why does Stein hate the browns and blacks? Well, in this piece he mocks Indians simply because they come from a more balanced and human friendly palette of cultures--they are not, typically, hyper-stressed and in pain like he is--they haven't wasted their youth, or poisoned their minds like he has! No wonder he is full of hate.
The merchants whose intelligence he mocks do much better than white merchants on the same level because they work at it, i.e. they are smarter! The same for professionals who did some reading and enjoy a life they have chosen while Stein needs to pull this crap out of you know where to please his handlers and get his dog biscuits for it.
It, by the way, like all racist hate, is self-hate. The good part is that we don't have to hate Stein, we just have to spread the love until no one bothers to read or promote this kind of pitiful self-hate--after we stop the media from broadcasting it to everyone constantly, with no obvious alternative or relief, so that many, many just learn to accept it and perpetuate it out of sheer fatigue.
Whew, sorry I'm so long,
Warm regards,
Steve
You wrote:
"There is an entire generation of white children in Edison who have nowhere to learn crime." (from J. Stein's stupid piece on Edison NJ)
Wait, why can't this generation of white children, those want to learn crime, steal from Indian stores? Surely, criminals are not racist. That wouldn't stop them. right? Or is that the joke? What?(from your comment on June 29, 2010 8:01 AM)
First, let me thank you. I am extremely grateful that you understood what I was trying to convey by asking how Stein would feel if someone used derogatory language regarding Jewish people.
Second, let me provide a little bit of context for why neither I nor the intern nipped this in the bud. I've noticed the flares of anti-semitism in this thread and most of those comments were summarily nuked (and some people were banned). I went to a very Jewish high school, kept kosher for a while and my closest friend in the world is a Persian Jew whose father used to take me to "Torah Study" when we worked together at the Capitol. I love Jewish people and culture so much, it puts me on the wrong side of current controversies, like the flotilla (but I am not going to take or answer any questions about that in this thread, so please don't do anything besides email me about it). I'm hyper-sensitive to anti-Semitism and sometimes, I worry that to compensate, I almost go in the other direction while moderating, because I'm always very worried about letting my biases get in the way of someone else's usually-equally-valid opinion. That may have occurred on this thread.
With the comment you referenced, however, I made the judgment call (perhaps a wrong one-- I'm not brilliant or perfect by any stretch) that the commenter was trying to be scathing and clever, not scathing and derogatory. Note the repetition of the word "head". It's not a slur to say that a Jew is circumcised, IMO. They just are.
I hope that all who are reading this comment/explanation take away one thing-- I take your desire to express yourself very seriously and I hate to curtail it in any way, despite what I am accused of, on an hourly basis. I really think about these things; unless a statement that is up for deletion is blatantly troll-tastic, I mull over it to make sure that I'm being fair and upholding my principles as well as my goals to encourage civil discussion and spirited, polite debate before I remove it from a thread. According to some people who know me best, I do this to a fault.
Anyway, two of you have emailed me about your concerns regarding this issue and how it is being presented on SM. I wish that "U.D." had provided me with an email address so that I could write back (they used our tip line, so there's nothing but an IP to tell me who they are). I'm sorry that you think SM's standards are different now or that you think the level of moderation has changed for the worse. I'm back (or trying to be) and I'm doing what I can. It's all an evolution. I say that I try very hard to be fair not because I'm calling out others or accusing them of otherwise...only because I'm the only person I can and should speak for. I'm sure we're all doing our best and I get that this is a deeply emotional, difficult issue for many of us...and that may be causing some of us to see disagreement as something more sinister.
That won't get us anywhere. But your patience and equanimity could get us exactly where we want and need to go. Thanks, everyone.
I apologize if the intent of my message was not clear. I am not playing favorites but your writing is what resonated the most even though I am an Indian citizen who has been in the states too long. I am disappointed by the tone of some of your fellow bloggers and I see other people have expressed their feelings on the other thread as well.
i love what you guys do and really appreciate it. One regret I have is not meeting any of you in person as I move to the UK in a few months.
#320: Media institutions like this are deathly afraid of being perceived as overtly racist so they're very careful to avoid printing something they think might cause a reaction such as yours.
And yet they did because it did cause that reaction. I don't get the logic here. The point here - and it has been made by many - is such reactions matter when they come from some quarters but not others and some here believe it is time desis (more specifically Indians and perhaps Hindus) stepped up their game so they begin to be counted in the 'some quarters'.
It's obvious to me that his nostalgia is not for a home without Indians because of the Indians; it's because everyone has this nostalgia. The fact that there weren't Indians during the "good old days" (which occur for most people at around age 12) might make a racist assume that the Indianlessness (I just made up a word!) is the reason for the nostalgia, but he's saying that this is not true in his case
Let me ask you this: would Time allow such 'nostalgia' to be expressed - hell, would the satirical Mr. Stein dare to express such 'nostalgia' - if the writer were hankering for a time when his neighborhood lacked Black people and now they dare to show up and start stinking up the neighborhood with soul food and loud music ? And if in the alternative universe where such a thing were possible, would any African-Americans be supporting him with "Yes, right on with the humour!" ?
The 'comment policy' of this site would be on such a humorist like a ton of dosas.
Stein spoke mostly of his own personal experience and observations. Many of those were our own experiences growing up in and around those times and places. But his conclusions were that he appreciated what Indians brought to Edison even though it lost its "pre-Indian charm". Finally (and most importantly), HE CONCEDES that Edison is a wealthier place to live because of the immigrant population.
And why is it ok for Russell Peters to make fun of racial stereotypes about not just Indians but East Asians, the English, Italians, Africans, Arabs, etc. Why can we all enjoy that but not tolerate this? Isn't it hypocritical to sit here and judge a known comic satirist who made ZERO hateful statements in this article?
If anything, Stein should be commended for leading potentially hot-headed xenophobes to cooler waters and at the same time testing our own social and cross-cultural insecurities.
And BTW, I love that in order to write this comment I had to fill this out:
"To prevent comment spam, please type the word BROWN"
What? like brown power? ;-)
Mohini Singh @ 335
pssstt ... Do you have a plan?
nirvana demon @ 332
That's Emperor Akbar to you.
You can learn more from this wiki link of 2010 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbar
Sober food for thought about misconceptions of Din-i-Ilali which "was more of an ethical system and is said to have prohibited lust, sensuality, slander and pride, considering them sins. Piety, prudence, abstinence and kindness are the core virtues."
While I did not find the article as offensive as many have (I have seen Joel Stein on Bill Maher's show before; he is just an idiot who thinks he has the edgy funny thing down, but is sadly mistaken), one of the points made here is perfect. Had such an article been written about Jews or black people, it would have been debated ad nauseam on NPR and MSNBC! In fact, it would not have been cleared by the editors of TIME. There is something to be said about the Indian immigrant self-hating nature which does not let them see racism where it is.
i'm late to the party - but i finally red the article. it's not gogol but it IS funny. i particularly enjoyd the line below.
i know at least one family whose doctor patriarch brought over a cuz who drives a truck and who brought over his own slope headed brother who sits in a dispatch booth wiping wet boogers on the underside of a formica table.
>There is something to be said about the Indian immigrant self-hating nature which does not let them see racism where it is.
....
>While I did not find the article as offensive as many have (I have seen Joel Stein on Bill Maher's show before; he is just an idiot who thinks he has the edgy funny thing down, but is sadly mistaken),
Would you contend it has something to do with our tendency to automatically downplay offense....as you illustrated. Such as downgraded his bigotry to misguided edginess?
>HE CONCEDES that Edison is a wealthier place to live because of the immigrant population.
He didn't concede jack. The mayor Jun Choi, who received electoral support from Indians, said as much. It's basic reading comprehension.
BTW, insecurity isn't calling bigotry out. Insecurity is jumping ship when a group you're a part of (for better or worse) is lampooned; to insincerely laugh off a piece that reduces us (and you) to cheap and frankly untrue stereotypes.
Anna, you are clear, strong, and right. You certainly speak for me.
Nice post by Kal Penn on HuffPo:
Hello #341, Ankush Narula,
Good you brought up Russell Peters. The difference is that Russell Peters has grown up (he's from multicultural Toronto) and has been pals with a lot of the people he makes fun off (at least from what I have seen of him), and he makes sure they do not get excluded in the joke. Most of the time he talks about how cool they are. Example, the !Klung language (I doubt though this example fits with my point about his discussing someone he grew up with), he thinks is is amazingly cool; he gets a laugh from the audience from the sheer *novelty* of it. That kind of humor can bridge cultures. Mr. Stein's kind in this essay does not do so well in the context he was working in.
Stein's article sucks and is racist. It is astonishing that in the name of humor, such offensive stuff gets published!!
Felt like sayin'... don't know too much about Stein's childhood beyond the essay.
I lean more to Abhi's side of the spectrum. Though I don't agree with the point regarding who has and hasn't earned the right to speak out, I do think we can respect free speech and avoid descending into the many vicious epithets sent Stein's way (not on this site but certainly and surprisingly on fbook). Just because it's an ethnic-oriented piece doesn't mean there's a reason to get ethnic on Stein. Contest the prose not the person.
Having been a reader of Stein's on and off since the mid late 90s, he is known for his snarky comments in Time, which are frequently lame on Vh1. Before people jump to conclusions, here's a bit more about him: http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20090109/NEWS/901090326
As for the article itself, the problem is that it tries to do too many things. It is too sincere to be satire and too snarky to be celebratory. Could there be some underlying racial feeling? Perhaps. But considering he, according to his own piece, had Indian playmates growing up and went to one of the more asian of the elite schools in the country, Stanford, I don't think it was an exercise in bigotry. The dotbusters remark seemed more oriented towards mocking the losers who came up with it than trivializing the violence that emerged from it. And let's face it, jokes are frequently made about the KKK, and as bad as dotbusters was, I think it's a difficult case to make that Indian immigrants had a more difficult lot than post-reconstruction African Americans. This does not trivialize the violence or gangwrought suffering, but just puts things into perspective.
There is, however, avowedly a strain of nativism. The humor was broke (didn't even chuckle at the guindians remark) and the piece in general was lacklustre. But in making an otherwise lame somewhat meandering piece equivalent to a michael richards outburst or worse, we do, as Abhi notes, distract from more pressing concerns. What's more, we as a community, look silly and oversensitive in the process. In doing so, you just provoke more professional provocateurs. Dirt of your shoulder, people.
I was really hoping this piece would be good. Instead, it was more of just a knee-jerk, at times incomprehensible, and overall just a tl;rd piece.
Yeah, the article comes off as racist, and Stein is stupid if he didn't realize what kind of backlash he would create here. Yeah, it would have been funnier if, as you put it, he was funny like Dave Chapelle, and was "...deft, artful, smart...Funny."
...wait, what? So you would have found this piece a bit more acceptable if it was racist in a way that made you LOL?
"The biggest problem I have with your inane, imbecilic piece is that it isn’t funny. Not even close to it."
Seriously?
Pretty much stopped caring about this story after that, although I did manage to read on a bit more and catch your "edgy" "FUCK YOU YOU FLYING FUCK!!!!" comments.
Yeah, real nice, real educated. These kind of responses really make us Indians look better and gets us more sympathy.
Joel Stein responds: I truly feel stomach-sick that I hurt so many people. I was trying to explain how, as someone who believes that immigration has enriched American life and my hometown in particular, I was shocked that I could feel a tiny bit uncomfortable with my changing town when I went to visit it. If we could understand that reaction, we’d be better equipped to debate people on the other side of the immigration issue.
It is worth noting that while both TIME and Joel Stein have issued apologies, the magazine still hasn't pulled off either Stein or the article. In fact,the article is displayed proudly in its "Most Popular" list
The apologies have been appended to the column; I think that's better than removing the column. As for booting Stein, that would be too harsh a punishment. He's a well-liked columnist who had a bad day at the keyboard. It happens to everyone.
Good joke, Melvin!
Joel Stein Stain
it's called delhi-belly axually.
but stein made the cardinal sin of making fun of a race other than his own. desis are equally derisive towards their own and their mummyji-daddyji and their pervy-uncleji and that's all ok.
White people are treated unfairly in this country, no doubt. But they have our deepest sympathies as they try desperately to lift themselves from their unwashed illiterate state into something approaching civilized behavior.
Professor in a writing class sometime in the future:
In a satire of a semi-bigot (he really isn't, but wouldn't it be cute to pose as one though ?) who is not quite sure of his feelings about the new immigrant community overtaking his childhood haunts, Stein tries to prove he is pro-immigration by showing it is tough to insult a model minority immigrant community using overused epithets (which he thinks the audience will get are anachronistic and thus wouldn't count against him) and putting in veiled positives about their affect on the overall safety and general affluence of the area. His proof fails, because
1) his case for being pro-immigration is weak as the equivocal language makes it subtle that even a native speaker will have to read it several times to see what it means. The reader's ignorance of his actual personal or professional history does little service.
2) a reference to the area's common racist slur might be ok if properly handled, but his light comedic language doesn't make a strong case against it and the hate crimes in its proximity
3) he associates himself with the bigots. His choice of "we" when he speaks of the dot-head antagonists only confirms it (he could have said "they"). He does little to distance himself from it; more like the opposite is true.
4) again he associates with at least one origin of anti-immigrant sentiment in Arizona, ie the fear of change, but does not extricate himself from their conclusions that immigrants are a problem in some way ("yes they improved crime statistics in Edison but ....")
5) he never really characterizes his discomfort enough to let the reader conclude it is only due to nostalgia and that he does not blame the immigrants solely. He could have mentioned some of the other factors and made parallels ("American demand for skilled and unskilled labor opening the gates for legal and illegal immigration in different parts of the country will only deepen in a recession and as baby-boomers start to retire so hold on bigots out there").
On the whole you can see he is not totally against Indians but he still wants to talk about his discomfort with change. However his clumsiness only lays bare his ignorance of the minority folks he is apparently trying to reach out to. He might succeed in infotaining those equipped with an equal amount of ignorance with a few Googled(tm) facts, but does little else to make them see their prejudices and broad-stroking for what it is. He could have instead talked about for example the diversity within that group itself, other ways to break the stereotypes or even mentioned a parallel from his own ethnic history. Does he get confused sometimes about his identity (white or Jewish) ? Seemingly his desperation to be white shows through just a little with this imbalanced essay.
Not a convincing piece on pro-immigration. His funny is too clouded and outdated to work. Remove the racist slur confusion and i might bump a grade.
Grade: D
The moral of the story here Mr. Stein is that you don't have to identify as white to succeed. Your fellow Edisonians could have told you that.
>I lean more to Abhi's side of the spectrum.
Satyajit,
Here's a wonderful time for you to return to your LAMP programming and let those of us who understand language and prejudice and how it can negatively impact the community over the long run if unaddressed, deal with the Stein matter. Why don't you "update your skills" and focus on what you do best. Deconstructing prejudice is not for the faint of heart, the emotionally unintelligent, and/or those who pride themselves on running from a fight - for their "superior discretion" of course. Of course the left-brain types will be oblivious to what's wrong with the piece and unwilling to see bigotry unless it is of the Michael Richards variety. That is why it's so easy for others to mock them to their face in a group setting without them even understand why everyone's laughing at them. Have the humility to understand when you're out of your depth.
So you really don't see the irony in dismissing a guy going by the moniker "Satyajit Wry" as being too left-brained to understand your oh-so-enlightened POV?
Seriously?
I hope you are looking at my handle, because it is how clever I am.
Also:
Children and the childlike are TIME's exclusive readership, so this makes sense. Even then TIME should only be adored in sort of a soggy-i-chewed-on-it-with-my-little-gummy-salivating-mouth sort of way.
Stein's article is a slap in the face of all the lying right wing hindutva nationalists who keep denying that India is hungry and poor and who keep boasting that Indians are all doctors, engineers, math geniuses and other high achievers. The slap is well deserved. Note that Edison is home to the American headquarters of the BJP and other Hindu right wing organizations.
Stein's point that India is so "damn poor" because Indians are a mostly stupid race is not a new one. As another poster has pointed out (psuedo)-scholarly books have been written explaining the poverty of India, Africa and other backward regions to the low IQ of it's people.
jagr721,
Meeeeooow!. We've barely even met and already the claws come out.
Look, I think in your cute attempt to start a little repartee with me you ended up missing the entire point of my post.
Fortunately, while you were mixing metaphors like a cuisinart, I had a breakthrough:
1. You clearly attended way too many soc and anthro classes to consider the possibility that someone was just trying to be funny/reflective rather than racist.
2. Take a look at Joel Stein's fans/wall posters before June 27. It seems to me that he does have a fair number of Indian friends--could it be that many of his thoughts were possibly vetted by them before he started writing? It's really ok to give someone the benefit of the doubt once in a while.
3. Even if your all powerful racedar was able to detect a dart or ten that us language-challenged primitives could not, could there possibly be more important things to generate outcry on? Perhaps genuine racism like the variety that Indian students in australia have been subjected to?
4. Since we're doing programming metaphors, here's our coding lesson for the day:
main ()
{
char head;
char up;
char ass;
int iq = 50;
if(head = up + ass)
Utilize astroglide to remove;
else
{
while (iq less than 100)
{
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/006237.html#comment274804;
iq++;
}
printf("Congratulations! You can actually hold a mature discussion now");
}
printf("Adieu");
}
"Satyajit eye"/garv/troll under a bridge/unloved as a child:
please see above program
All I am saying is that I have seen waaay more brown on brown bigotry in the US than white on brown or black on brown etc. If you were to take a quick headcount here of how many of us teased and shrunk away from FOBs or still caricature them on a regular basis
This is actually true everywhere...we come from a class-wealth, education prejudice society, underlined by caste issues, regional loyalties, custom and language differences...India is not a country as much as a United states of India ( eg like Europe), so when the white man is out of the picture..we find reasons to be prejudice amongst ourselves...I have never seen anyone short of Nick Griffith types, as racist as Indians( and Pakistanis)...
Joel Stein seems to be the USA equivalent of UK Bernard Manning or Jim Davison, re jokes...a guy who does not deserve 270 odd posts...
i understand the anger caused by that article...i liked most of what anna's written - except that, like someone mentioned above, really,would this have been acceptable to anna if it had been funny?! i think the best response to this piece of uninformed vitriol from the undereducated stein would have been - complete indifference. yup, we shld have just ignored the article. now before i'm called passive, pathetic etc let me tell you that i belong to this country...being on the receiving end of the ugliness of racism quite a few times, has helped me ''give as good as i get'' no doubt about that. i don't mean i respond with racism but there's a certain classy way we put down racists - deflate them and they're nothing but a bunch of gibbering xenophobes. but i know which battles to pick and which ones are not worth taking up. come on, such hullabaloo about something this hack wrote. the whole lot of us should have completely ignored it. it wld have been interesting to see stein's reaction to THAT! but he got what he wanted. sad. all that apart,sepai mutiny - great place...thanks y'all doing a gr8 job.
I think you have being wry confused with being an asshole.
"Satyajit eye"/garv/troll under a bridge/unloved as a child:
please see above program
The more I read this blog, the more I feel it isn't populated by desis at all. It seems to be full of white people who would rather sympathize with the white viewpoint than stick up for desis. Or is it just that desis, in their so strong desire to be accepted by the white population, decide to just say whatever they think will keep them sweet with them?
Where are the real desis, seriously?
Hi! White person here. I thought Stein's article was racist. And awful. So, ummm, rewq, us whities, we don't all want people to pretend racist things are not racist. Doesn't sound "sweet". At least not me. Of course I can't speak for all whities.
Hey Satyajit,
You didn't initialize your variables, if you are using the gcc compiler you might get lucky and have them initialized to 0.
Also, your if condition is an assignment :(
I do agree with you though :)
I grew up in Edison NJ. When I first moved here from Ghana (yes Africa), being of Persian decent... there were very few Indians in the area. Still I was taunted at school and called names, etc. In the 90's when the Indian population grew, the taunting about being "foreigner/where are you from" changed to taunting about being "Indian/go back to India/take shower/does your mother wear a turban". I am not Indian... but the reality is that the people in Edison were racist long before the arrival of your "desi" people.
Also to clarify my own prejudices... why do Indian men stare endlessly at women with a very perverted look on their face... or try to grab my ass at Metropark, or stand so close to me that I wish I could fly away and stop breathing... Its just disgusting? Now I am not being racist but a realist. Please explain.
So to clarify to ALL on this blog... we all have our prejudices, likes and dislikes. Whehter we agree with Joel's article or not... he is faced with accepting a race and culture and habits he could never begin to relate to or understand. Same as you and I and all other people on earth.
Well, it would've been a completely different piece if it had been funny. Bluntly stating that a humorist failed at his job removes any license Stein has to say that it was satire or just a joke. Strong people can laugh at themselves, if the humor is well-constructed and doesn't come from a place of animosity. The same should go for communities. Racial humor is excruciatingly difficult to execute. Even Chappelle gave up on it, because he realized that certain people were laughing at him, not with him.
That tingling, hairs-raised-on-the-back-of-your-neck feeling that something isn't right? That's what happens when "racial comedy" goes wrong; when such comedy fails, it just sounds racist. And the layers upon layers of editing and proofreading at TIME should've recognized failure and not given such awful tripe a global platform. That's a salient and disturbing piece that is left out of some of the comments here which clumsily offer rebuttals like, "Well, brown people make fun of other brown people!" or "When so-and-so did X last month, there were only 10 comments". Well, brown people aren't being rude to their brethren via an internationally-distributed column in a respected publication. The same goes for that idiot "so-and-so". Publishing these sentiments in TIME magazine legitimizes them and elevates them; that must be called out and condemned. Stein can say whatever he wants, but if he is saying it in TIME magazine, he'd better be more responsible with how he wields that pen. Or keyboard. Both can wound, if used maliciously.
Indian here.
Wasn't offended by the article in the least.
Ever wonder why the world is going down the drain?
People just love feeling offended.
And another chance for honest conversation is lost.
"And another chance for honest conversation is lost."
Do you really think that Stein's column in TIME was a "chance for honest conversation"? If you do, I have this great money-making opportunity to tell you about.
we are working on the poker face and are in the process of providing sunglasses to the community
Mt. Everest explanation.
a result of a spectacular misreading of sting's words
True. In all seriousness, some cultures suck more than others on a variety of issues and to say your culture sucks is not necessarily racist but its also not easy to stay within the non-racist space when making such arguments.
Manju, if you are one of those guys at Metropark or the Path or the Subway who stare and stare and stare, and try to grope ppl... can you please STOP. And tell all your friends to do the same. If its racist to tell people to stop acting "pervertedly" then I am a racist.. not for the color of your skin, but for making me feel uncomfortable in mine. Maybe you did the same to Joel Stein? Who knows
Thanks ANNA!
Brown Girl From Persia, please take your entitled, "realist" self to some other blog where your borderline-trollery will be tolerated. You and your unproductive remarks are not welcome here. Indians don't have a monopoly on boorish behavior, as your ignorant comments prove. Manju was being far more polite to you than you deserved.
I don't go to Persian blogs and sanctimoniously demand explanations for your community's behavior so don't come here and do the same. Do you even realize how you come across? Check yourself.
Alright SM Intern calm down. Isn't this a forum for everyone to state their views on Joel Stein’s piece about Edison? If its only for Indians, then you are being discriminatory. Also if I live in Edison, then the people in Edison are my community... regardless of their ethnicity... no? And as such don't I have as much right to be disgruntled or make suggestions as anyone else living there? After all, this entire stream is about Joel's article on Edison... and I am merely stating my opinion on the matter. Check yourself and ask if you are open minded enough to hear all views, even those that may be offensive to you... even if you know they are TRUE. Otherwise I am done… Thanks.
what's so respectable about TIME? it's a news magazine like so many others and it has not always been particularly friendly to india.i think by attributing these high "honors" to TIME, and thereby inflating the two-bit stein article, you are trying to justify your over the top blowout over the column. very few people knew who stein was before this brouhaha. now ALL desis know and he's getting a million hits. good job.
where does freedom of expression come into all this? who is the arbiter of what type of articles can be published where?
what about all those bollywood buffoonery with horrible stereotypes of white people, south indians, westernized women and so on? don't they get a big multi-million dollar platform? where is the wrath? where's the outrage?
“True?” Hahaha.
I’m sure plenty of Desi girls have had encounters with skeevy Persian fellows. They might not know it because we basically lump you all in with Arabs and Armenians and consequentially don’t notice whether the skeezeball in question happens to be Persian or not.
The moral of the story is that men, in general, can be pretty skeezy. Life sucks that way.
Basic population dynamics tells us that the male half of any mammalian species is more widely distributed around the mean than the female half. So you get a lot of creepers and a lot of gentlemen and comparatively fewer guys in between.
Wrong. I don't have to justify anything, especially to anonymous commenters. My reaction was real and valid. So was Abhi's. That's the beauty of diversity-- and this site. :)
Wrong again. I can't remember the last time I/we received so many emails, tips or tweets about ONE link. You may not have known about him, but you don't speak for the greater community. None of us does. What does "speak" is the sheer volume of feedback we received about this story before we posted anything about it. You are vastly overstating the importance of this site if you think it delivered that asshole a million hits, but thanks!
::
And to "BrownGrl From Persia"/"Checked Myself"-- if you can't understand why your comments were offensive and not valid feedback to or about Stein, seriously, spare us your "contributions".
::
I'm closing this thread soon. If you have anything useful to add, now is the time. Thank you to the vast majority of you for keeping it clean, interesting and respectful!
I'm a desi girl and I (and alot of my friends) have always found Persian men to be lecherous, scheming, untrustworthy and quite frankly, a little bit smelly. Oh dear, can I say that? It sounds a little harsh - but true - LOL! Still free speech, hey, it's all good...
"I'm a desi girl and I (and alot of my friends) have always found Persian men to be lecherous, scheming, untrustworthy and quite frankly, a little bit smelly. Oh dear, can I say that? It sounds a little harsh - but true - LOL! Still free speech, hey, it's all good..."
lol; u can say that about a lot of types of men including Persian men...
I actually spent some time thinking about one of my earlier comments.
I still think a lot of Indian shoppes and neighborhoods (true of ethnic neighborhoods in general actually) tend to lack character and be pretty dirty/sparse, and I pointed out before that this is more bad urban planning/design than any individual person's fault.
Then I thought of something else. The "charm" people usually talk about with trendy-ish places like Whole Foods or PinkBerry or major restaurants are all franchises and chains. The "character" is mostly manufactured corporate stuff so they have marketting folks that get paid a lot of money to create design principles that make a store and its neighborhood look good. Ethnic businesses, being small businesses don't do that. It's just Amma & Nanna opening up an office and plying their services. So the charm of more White bread neighborhoods is mostly just fake to begin with.
Still, it wouldn't kill them to hire an interior decorator to efficiently utilize their space. I'm sure there is already a market for vastu-wallahs to vet these places. Would it be so hard to get one who vet the place AND advise them about how to make it good looking too?
Now that has nothing to do with anything. Just thought I'd yammer.
Glad you did. That was an interesting comment. I definitely preferred it to the flame-throwing at hairy, leering mens. ;)
This isn't the first time someone at SM has expressed loathing for anonymous commenting. Why don't you have registration if this is a problem?
anna, i agree that humor tends to blunt the edge...we would take it more sportingly when called out on our own foibles and weaknesses with a tinge of good-hearted humor...we should all be able to laugh at ourselves...but my point was that this was so blatantly an incendiary article that it could have at best been ignored or given less mileage...of course you have the right to write what you feel in your blog and i don't mean that this piece alone added more fuel to stein's weak-ass attempt at notoriety...but in various desi comm channels i saw my friends and colleagues discussing this ad infinitum and i went oh boy that nutjob's getting what he wanted! do we really need that. a well written, well reasoned piece that made some valid points would have at least justified the discussion. this was just a bug that needed to be squashed with one stiletto heel n given no further attention. but personally i'm glad u wrote this for 1 reason - just discovered this blog and gonna find the time to read more here ;)
p.s. - bad analogy. i don't do that to bugs. or stilettos.
We are working on as many updates and innovations as we can...but it's worth repeating with respect to this and many other "Why don't you..."s that there is only so much one can or should ask of a tiny force of awesome, over-worked volunteers who all have rigorous day jobs and families. :) SM is not a business or a non-profit or an entity with vast resources; it is a labor of love.
The loathing comes from the level of entitlement often expressed by people who have no accountability or credibility whatsoever. They have nothing to lose with their drive-by shitting-- but we're the ones who put ourselves out there to get shat upon. And before some genius tries to say that we've received much fame and fortune from SM, know that we have never, ever made a cent from it and that no one knows or cares about who we are. ;) I *do* feel like I owe my old, new, loyal and critical readers something-- if I know who they are. If they have a history. If they have participated in good faith. But anonymous cowards who would never dare to mouth off the way they do, IF they had to do it under their actual names? I owe them nothing but contempt.
Thank you for asking a sincere question in a civil fashion. I appreciate it!